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THE CASE FOR RESURRECTION: JOHN 3:16, TRUE STORY · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace The Case for the Resurrection
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Speaker 1: Bob Shell John three point sixteen True story. I'm Nancy Grace,
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Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 1: Why is it that we want proof? After I graduated
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Speaker 1: from law school and began prosecuting felony cases, my world
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Speaker 1: boiled down to black and white. Everything in my world
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Speaker 1: simply put, is it probative? What does it prove? If
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Speaker 1: I can't prove it, then it's not real. You think
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Speaker 1: I would put a psychic in front of a jury
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Speaker 1: even if I believed what he or she said, No,
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Speaker 1: I would not. Nobody believes that. It would ruin the
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Speaker 1: state's case, just like putting up a witness that is
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Speaker 1: going to be destroyed on cross examination. Is it worth it?
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Speaker 1: Or do you? You lose all credibility in this business
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Speaker 1: the media. There is one stink bomb. If you mentioned this,
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Speaker 1: you lose all credibility, and that is christ or Resurrection
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Speaker 1: joining me an all star panel to discuss the Case
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Speaker 1: for the Resurrection. Straight out to a guy I feel.
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Speaker 1: I know because I have listened to him read his books.
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Speaker 1: His most recent book is The Supernatural. I'm seeing the Supernatural,
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Speaker 1: But what really reached me was Lee Strobel's book The
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Speaker 1: Case for Christ Today The Resurrection John three point sixteen.
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Speaker 1: According to many of us, it's a true story straight
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Speaker 1: out to Lee Strobel joining us now catch this. Former
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Speaker 1: legal editor of the Chicago Tribune, also covered the courthouse, beat,
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Speaker 1: crime and justice for everything boiled down to can you
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Speaker 1: prove it beyond a reasonable doubt? Former atheist, which we'll
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Speaker 1: get into. New York Times best selling author of Seeing
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Speaker 1: the Supernatural that's his newest, The Evidence of Christ forty
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Speaker 1: plus books. Sorry, Strobl, I don't have time to go
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Speaker 1: through all that. My favorite so far The Case for
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Speaker 1: Christ Now, Lee, thank you for being with us. Also
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Speaker 1: with us an all star panel that I'm getting to.
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Speaker 1: But first to Lee Strobel, it's our super Bowl. It's Easter,
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Speaker 1: I argue, the single most important time in the Christian year.
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Speaker 1: We hear a lot more about Christmas. I get it,
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Speaker 1: But super Ball Easter, no question. Without Easter, nobody would
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Speaker 1: care about Christmas. Explain to me how you turned from
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Speaker 1: a died in the wool atheist to a believer.
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Speaker 2: Well, thanks, Nanswy. I was an in my backgrounds and
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Speaker 2: journalism and law, so just like you, I loved your introduction,
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Speaker 2: because man, I feel the same way. I need evidence,
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Speaker 2: I need I need data, I need historical, trustworthy material
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Speaker 2: before I make a decision. And I just saw your
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Speaker 2: concept of all loving, all knowing God was absurd. It
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Speaker 2: wasn't worth my time to even check out. And I
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Speaker 2: married a woman who was an a stick. He ended
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Speaker 2: up becoming a Christian, and I thought, how do I
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Speaker 2: wrest Let me say struggle.
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Speaker 1: Let me say struggle. And by the way, who's ever
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Speaker 1: running that chain of photos or depictions of Christ? Apparently
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Speaker 1: that's not at all what he looked like. He wasn't
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Speaker 1: white as a lily with blue eyes. Most likely just guessing.
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Speaker 1: But that said, let me say stroble, at least trouble.
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Speaker 1: Why was the idea? I mean, you believe in the
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Speaker 1: Hubble Telescope, don't you? Right? Well, of course, okay, you're
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Speaker 1: not one of those people that we think it's all
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Speaker 1: a scam, that we really didn't land on the moon.
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Speaker 1: You're not that personal. Then why can't you people you
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Speaker 1: said you didn't believe or couldn't consider an all knowing
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Speaker 1: or all loving God. So if you believe in the
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Speaker 1: Hubble telescope, and you believe that we can look into
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Speaker 1: galaxies millions of light years away. What's so hard to believe?
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Speaker 1: I don't understand well.
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Speaker 2: As you'll find out as you interview as they have
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Speaker 2: a lot of reasons for not believing, and tend to,
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Speaker 2: as the Book of Romans said, to suppress the evidence.
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Speaker 2: And so you find ways to explain all of the evidence,
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Speaker 2: just as a Book of Romans says that we tend
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Speaker 2: to suppress the evidence because we want to be God.
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Speaker 2: We want to make our own decisions. We don't want
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Speaker 2: to be given commandments to live by.
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Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned Romans, and they'll have to ask
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Speaker 1: you and Father Puzanna about the problem with the Old Testament.
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Speaker 1: Talk about an angry father. I mean, that's bad, that's
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Speaker 1: really bad. In the Old Testament. It's very hard for
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Speaker 1: many people to reconcile the God in the Old Testament
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Speaker 1: with the God in the New Testament. I have my
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Speaker 1: own ways to reconcile it. But you mentioned Romans, and
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Speaker 1: of course Romans was written by Paul aka alias Saul
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Speaker 1: the Christian Killer, who, like you, became a believer. That
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Speaker 1: happens to have my favorite Bible verse of all times
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Speaker 1: in Romans. That's why I have a particular love for Romans.
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Speaker 1: But that said, so you're dying the atheists, you're coming
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Speaker 1: covering the crime be nothing but murder, ray Cholmleas Station
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Speaker 1: Mayhem all day long, and you like it. So how
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Speaker 1: did you end up becoming a Christian? Much less a
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Speaker 1: Christian author? Best selling author, New York Times bestselling author.
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Speaker 2: My wife was agnostic. She met a neighbor who was
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Speaker 2: a Christian, shared Jesus with her, went to church with her,
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Speaker 2: and then she came and gave me the worst news
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Speaker 2: an atheists husband could get. She said, I decided to
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Speaker 2: become a Christian, and I thought divorce would be the answer.
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Speaker 2: But then I thought maybe I could rescue her from
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Speaker 2: this cult that she got involved in. So I decided
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Speaker 2: to take my legal training and my journalism training and
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Speaker 2: systematically investigate is there any credibility to the resurrection of
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Speaker 2: Jesus Christ? Because I figured, even as an atheist, that
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Speaker 2: is the foundation, that is the lynchpin of the Christian faith,
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Speaker 2: because Jesus clearly may transcendent and missying in divine claims
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Speaker 2: about himself. But so what I could do that? You
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Speaker 2: could do that, anybody could do that. But if Jesus
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Speaker 2: claimed to be God, died and then three days later
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Speaker 2: return from the dead. That's pretty good evidence he's telling
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Speaker 2: the truth. And so I spent two years of my
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Speaker 2: life using my journalism and legal trainee to investigate the
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Speaker 2: data of history to try to come to an informed
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Speaker 2: verdict on whether or not Jesus backed up his claim
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Speaker 2: to being the son of God by returning from the
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Speaker 2: dead in the third Day. And I became convinced, based
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Speaker 2: on history, on documents, based on I witness accounts, and
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Speaker 2: so forth, that Jesus is who he claim to be.
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Speaker 2: And that's when I abandoned my atheism and received Jesus
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Speaker 2: as my forgiver and a leader joining me.
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Speaker 1: In addition to best selling author Lee Struggle, Father Cedric Pisana,
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Speaker 1: Father Cedric ministries airs on tb N on Sundays and
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Speaker 1: at seven am on EWTN Sundays at nine thirty am.
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Speaker 1: He's the author of Rise, Living, The Risen Life, and
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Speaker 1: Death I Surrender. There are twenty five books to go through. Father.
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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. You know, Les Trouble
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Speaker 1: just said so many interesting things, But one thing he
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Speaker 1: said was that Christ declared himself the son of God.
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Speaker 1: Now you know what I noticed, And of course I'm
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Speaker 1: just a la person compared to all of you Christian intellectuals,
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Speaker 1: but I noticed that very often when Christ would perform
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Speaker 1: a miracle, which was documented in many written sources at
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Speaker 1: the time by non Christians, they would often refer to
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Speaker 1: Christ as basically an insurrectionist that could perform magic, healing
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Speaker 1: people through magic. They didn't know what to make of it.
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Speaker 1: But Father, I noticed from my point of view in
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Speaker 1: the Gospels, whenever he would perform a miracle, he would say,
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Speaker 1: don't tell anybody. And when he would be asked who
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Speaker 1: are you, even by Pacha's pilot, he would not come
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Speaker 1: out and say I am the son of God. It
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Speaker 1: was there at the very end, when the disciples still
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Speaker 1: weren't getting it, that he did claim to be the
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Speaker 1: son of God. But I found him to be I
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Speaker 1: find him to be very humble. I mean, in everything
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Speaker 1: he did, it's a lesson on how we are to live.
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Speaker 1: I don't find him touting his own horn that often.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, he wasn't that way. He taught with parables and
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Speaker 3: he taught with a lot of wisdom. But he's the
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Speaker 3: only person I have ever heard of, both written and
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Speaker 3: spoken that ever said I am the resurrection in the life.
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Speaker 3: These are unprecedented claims. And we're talking about the proof
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Speaker 3: of the resurrection, Nancy, and I thank you for having
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Speaker 3: me on. I'm a Catholic priest and for two thousand
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Speaker 3: years the Church has been present proclaiming this that there
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Speaker 3: not only is there a resurrection of Jesus, but we
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Speaker 3: are all going to be resurrected in the last stay
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Speaker 3: and stand before God. And when you talk about proof
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Speaker 3: of the resurrection, let me say this. I liken it
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Speaker 3: to a boat. If there's a boat going through a harbor,
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Speaker 3: it creates a wake in the same way the resurrection
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Speaker 3: has created a wake. For example, the Bible, the New
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Speaker 3: Testament has come forth because of that that the apostles
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Speaker 3: have died for this, They've been martyred.
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Speaker 1: People don't die, Father, bizigna father when you know many
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Speaker 1: people And I can't wait to hear the rest of
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Speaker 1: the pane'll talk about this. Like myself sometimes wonder is
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Speaker 1: this real? But wondering is not a sin. It's not
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Speaker 1: the end of you as a Christian. And I would
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Speaker 1: like to refer to Thomas the Doubter when he said
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Speaker 1: I don't believe the resurrection has bs. Excuse me, Father
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Speaker 1: Christ did not hate him, he didn't reject him. He
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Speaker 1: wooed Thomas and showed him his scars. He felt where
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Speaker 1: the sword had gone in Christ's side, and Thomas no
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Speaker 1: longer doubted something. You just said that the disciples were
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Speaker 1: willing to die, to die horrible deaths. When Peter the
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Speaker 1: Rock was murdered, he refused to be crucified. He said
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Speaker 1: that was the way Christ was killed. I'm not worthy
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Speaker 1: of that and was crucified upside down these people. When
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Speaker 1: I feel weak, I think of them and all the
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Speaker 1: early Christians that were murdered for their beliefs. They would
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Speaker 1: rather die than recan't Christ? And that is very persuasive
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Speaker 1: to me speaking about Yeah, let me share.
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Speaker 3: This very quickly because you have other panelists here. But
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Speaker 3: I had a young man come up to me. He
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Speaker 3: was a teenager, and he said, Father Ceda could sizter.
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Speaker 3: How do we know that Jesus was risen? And that's
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Speaker 3: the question before us right now. And what I told
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Speaker 3: him was, I know he's risen because he lives in me.
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Speaker 3: He's changed my life. I have actually had two near
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Speaker 3: death experiences where I encountered the risen Christ, and this
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Speaker 3: so revolutionized my life that I became a Catholic priest
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Speaker 3: with a vow of poverty, chastity and obedience. And Jesus said,
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Speaker 3: by your fruit you will know them. So the bottom
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Speaker 3: line is that he pours out his Holy Spirit upon people,
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Speaker 3: and that's the proof of the resurrection, that you can
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Speaker 3: encounter Christ and that your doubts can be turned into faith.
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Speaker 3: But more than anything, Jesus wants faith from us.
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Speaker 1: Crime stores with nancy grace.
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Speaker 4: Jesus triumphal entry into Jerusalem was a threat to the
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Speaker 4: religious leaders of the day, as their power was derived
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Speaker 4: from rules and traditions. Jesus was also seen as a
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Speaker 4: political threat by religious leaders as well as Roman authority,
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Speaker 4: fearing the populace would unite behind Jesus, leading to unrest.
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Speaker 4: Some of Jesus' early supporters expect him to be a
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Speaker 4: political or military leader and are disappointed to find out otherwise.
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Speaker 4: In the crowds, we're instigators, sowing seeds of false information
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Speaker 4: about Jesus and our right lies, causing the people to
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Speaker 4: question him, leading to his arrest gang mentality.
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Speaker 1: Okay, one thing I don't understand as how a single
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Speaker 1: guy from all places, Bethlehem, Nazareth was a political threat.
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Speaker 1: He owned one pair of sandals that somebody probably gave
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Speaker 1: him a robe, and that was it. How did one
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Speaker 1: guy post such an incredible threat to the hierarchy, not
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Speaker 1: just the local religious leaders, but beyond to the Roman Empire?
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Speaker 1: Joining me an all star panel as we head into
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Speaker 1: our super Bowl Easter to Lee's strobel joining us. How
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Speaker 1: many times have I wanted to speak to you along
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Speaker 1: with an all star panel? Each a bright light in
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Speaker 1: this world. Lee is the author of a brand new book,
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Speaker 1: Seeing the Supernatural, but also The Case for Christ, which
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Speaker 1: I have listened to many times Lee on tape. So Lee,
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Speaker 1: can we talk about proof? Yes, and everything that father
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Speaker 1: Father Pizana has said, Michael Lacona has said is true.
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Speaker 1: But I can't go to a Jerry and say, Okay,
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Speaker 1: this guy said ed he saw a vision of a
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Speaker 1: man that died two thousand years ago, and that's my proof.
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Speaker 1: Do I believe it? Yes? I believe it happened. Can
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Speaker 1: I offer it as proof? Probably not. Now give me
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Speaker 1: some proof, Lee, Sure, the things I heard you talk
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Speaker 1: about in your book. Can we just start with eyewitnesses?
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Speaker 2: Sure? Most of the facts that we accept as being
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Speaker 2: true about the ancient world when you dig down into them,
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Speaker 2: are based on one source or two sources of information.
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Speaker 2: We have no fewer than nine ancient early sources confirming
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Speaker 2: and corroborating their conviction that they encountered the risen Christ. First,
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Speaker 2: we have a report of the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
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Speaker 2: including named eye witnesses and groups of eyewitnesses, far too
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Speaker 2: quick to be a legend that developed over the centuries
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Speaker 2: that came later. A second, we have Paul's testimony. He
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Speaker 2: had been Saul of Tarsus, he had an encounter with
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Speaker 2: the risen Christ. Then he became the apostle Paul. But
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Speaker 2: then he got to know some of the apostles, including Peter, James,
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Speaker 2: and John. And Paul says himself, he says, regarding the resurrection,
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Speaker 2: whether it is I or they, this is what we preach.
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Speaker 2: In other words, I was an eyewitness, and their eyewitnesses too. Third,
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Speaker 2: we have Peter himself in the Book of Acts, which
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Speaker 2: even skeptical scholars will accept as a book about the
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Speaker 2: spread of early Christianity. And Peter gets up before a
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Speaker 2: group and he says, God has raised this Jesus to life,
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Speaker 2: to which we're all witnesses, and three thousand people that
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Speaker 2: day said Peter, we know you're telling the truth, and
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Speaker 2: the Church was born. The next four sources are the
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Speaker 2: Gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. There are nine appearances
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Speaker 2: of the risen Jesus in those gospels, and we have
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Speaker 2: every reason to believe that those gospels are reliable. They
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Speaker 2: are early enough, they are rooted into the right streams,
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Speaker 2: They go back to Jesus and the original people. There's proximity,
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Speaker 2: there's verification of distinct points with archaeology and other documents.
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Speaker 2: So there's the inner logic, of course, continuity.
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Speaker 1: Whoa whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa. See you're so smart.
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Speaker 1: You and everybody else on this panel other than me
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Speaker 1: are just you know, rieling it off. Got me drinking
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Speaker 1: for the fire hydrants. Stroebe. You can't take all that in.
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Speaker 1: But you said eye witnesses, and you were referring to
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Speaker 1: the disciples multiple accounts. I'm going to circle back to that,
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Speaker 1: But what about what about outside the Bible? I want
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Speaker 1: to get to that, the writings outside the Bible, but
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Speaker 1: the hundreds of people that reportedly saw him during the
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Speaker 1: forty days he walked the earth post crucifixion.
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Speaker 2: What about them, Yeah, they're mentioned in that creed that
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Speaker 2: I mentioned, that early report of the resurrection. It says
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Speaker 2: it mentioned the specific names of eyewitnesses to whom he appeared,
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Speaker 2: including Peter, including James, the half brother of Jesus, who
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Speaker 2: who was not a follower of Jesus during Jesus' lifetime,
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Speaker 2: he was radically converted and became a ultimately martyred for
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Speaker 2: his faith as a leader of the Church of Jerusalem
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Speaker 2: because he encountered the risen Jesus. And it talks about
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Speaker 2: groups of people, including five hundred people at once, who
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Speaker 2: encountered the resurrected Jesus and Peter, and Paul said to
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Speaker 2: the church in court, he said, I'm paraphrase. He basically said, look,
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Speaker 2: you don't believe me. A lot of these five hundred
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Speaker 2: witnesses are still around. Go talk to them. They'll tell
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Speaker 2: you the truth. And then we have people who actually
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Speaker 2: sat under the teachings of the eyewitnesses themselves, and they
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Speaker 2: tell us what the eyewitnesses said. So, for instance, we
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Speaker 2: have Clement, who we believe was ordained by Peter himself,
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Speaker 2: and Clement wrote a letter right there in the first
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Speaker 2: century in which you said the disciples had quote complete
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Speaker 2: certainty caused by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Speaker 2: And then we have Polycart, who we believe was appointed
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Speaker 2: the bishop of the Church of Smyrna by John himself,
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Speaker 2: and he wrote a letter to the Philippian chore and
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Speaker 2: he said, you mentioned the resurrection no fewer than five times,
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Speaker 2: and he said, I'll quote him. He said about Paul
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Speaker 2: and the other apostles, he said, for they did not
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Speaker 2: love the present age, but him who died for their
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Speaker 2: benefit and for our sake, was raised by God. So
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Speaker 2: we have nine ancient sources going back extremely early, confirming
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Speaker 2: and corroborating that the disciples were convinced that Jesus was
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Speaker 2: resurrected and appeared to them.
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Speaker 1: And I'd like to point out not just the disciples.
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Speaker 2: Yes, that's rights.
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Speaker 1: Yes, members of the then current religious regime were converted,
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Speaker 1: and they were very anti Christ or converted Romans who
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Speaker 1: had their lives to lose if they converted, did convert
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Speaker 1: because they saw him, they would rather go so live
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Speaker 1: in caves. What if somebody said, okay, you need to
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Speaker 1: pack up all your stuff and go live in a
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Speaker 1: cave with your children. They did that rather than recan't
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Speaker 1: their beliefs joining me now in addition to Lee's Strobull,
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Speaker 1: author of The Case for christ Father, Cedric Pizania, Michael Lacona,
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Speaker 1: Billy Hallowell is joining US. Host at CBN Christian Broadcasting Network,
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Speaker 1: has a new documentary out investigating the supernatural Miracles, has
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Speaker 1: two podcasts, multiple books at Billyhollowell dot com. Billy. One
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Speaker 1: thing that is very convincing to me is that many
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Speaker 1: people like strobel did not believe. They didn't believe. In fact,
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Speaker 1: they had a great interest personal interest in not believing.
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Speaker 1: They would lose their job, they would lose their home,
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Speaker 1: they could be put to death if they chose to believe.
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Speaker 1: Yet after seeing Christ following the Resurrection, walking the earth
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Speaker 1: for forty days, they chose to give it all up
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Speaker 1: and become believers. Not just the disciples, not just them
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Speaker 1: his close followers, but people that didn't even know him before.
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Speaker 1: I find that very probative.
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Speaker 5: Well, it is, and you think about the fact that
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Speaker 5: you were saying, before you know some people, you know,
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Speaker 5: why was Jesus such a threat to so many people?
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Speaker 5: And he's performing miracles, and he's walking around and he's
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Speaker 5: doing these things that are shocking people and making them
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Speaker 5: wonder who is he really? And I would say I
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Speaker 5: think this is important to talk about. We're talking about
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Speaker 5: the history in the past. We're talking about what the
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Speaker 5: Bible says and whether it's true, whether he resurrected. Let's
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Speaker 5: look at the world today. You asked that question about
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Speaker 5: people living in caves around the world. Today, Christian persecution
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Speaker 5: is the worst that it has ever been in history.
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Speaker 5: There are millions of people who are very much worse
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Speaker 5: off and living in caves. They're being slaughtered and murdered
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Speaker 5: and killed because they will not recant the faith. So
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Speaker 5: that same proof that we're talking about actually back then
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Speaker 5: with Paul and so many others. We're watching people live
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Speaker 5: that out actively in those changed lives right now as
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Speaker 5: we speak, in countries around the world. And I'll tell
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Speaker 5: you the thing, Nick.
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Speaker 1: Queer, I want to hear about current Christian persecution.
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Speaker 5: Absolutely, the World Watch List every year they rank the
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Speaker 5: worst countries. North Korea is typically number one, Nigeria right now,
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Speaker 5: and I would encourage people to look this up. We
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Speaker 5: cover this at CBN frequently. What is happening in Nigeria
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Speaker 5: is horrific. The slaughter, the murder, the killing, the systematic,
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Speaker 5: I mean pastors and leaders and normal Christians, people who
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Speaker 5: will not recant their faith. Not only are these second
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Speaker 5: class citizens in many of these countries, but they are
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Speaker 5: put in labor camps and they are slaughtered. And this
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Speaker 5: is very actively happening around the world. Here in America,
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Speaker 5: we don't think about these things because generally speaking, we
22:58
Speaker 5: have very good First Amendment religion, liberty. Other countries this
23:01
Speaker 5: does not exist. And so but my point is that
23:04
Speaker 5: proof that we're talking about, we see it being lived
23:06
Speaker 5: out actively right now in our world today, and that's
23:10
Speaker 5: easy to look past it.
23:11
Speaker 1: I think it's important to discuss again. We are heading
23:14
Speaker 1: into the most sacred time of the year for Christians
23:17
Speaker 1: around the world, and that is Easter. It's painful to
23:23
Speaker 1: hear from me. It's painful to hear the way Christ
23:28
Speaker 1: was treated.
23:28
Speaker 6: Jesus was arrested on charges of sedition because the Romans
23:32
Speaker 6: saw him as a serious threat to their authority. Jewish
23:35
Speaker 6: leaders felt the same way, Jesus's teachings were a threat
23:38
Speaker 6: to their authority. The combination of leadership from the political
23:41
Speaker 6: and religious parts of society, coupled with the groundswell of
23:44
Speaker 6: false information, turned the crowds against Jesus. It took only
23:48
Speaker 6: one week from the city of Jerusalem to go from
23:50
Speaker 6: praise him to crucify him.
23:53
Speaker 7: Jesus was arrested late on Thursday night after the Passover meal.
23:56
Speaker 7: He appeared before the Sanhedrin immediately, as the Jewish leaders
23:59
Speaker 7: wanted him try as quickly as possible. He is accused
24:02
Speaker 7: of blasphemy and claiming to be King of the Jews.
24:05
Speaker 7: He is judged guilty, condemned to die, and turned over
24:08
Speaker 7: to Ponche's pilot.
24:09
Speaker 1: To Elis Strobel, joining us former legal editor at the
24:15
Speaker 1: Chicago Tribune. And I say that to tell you that
24:19
Speaker 1: he is a hard boiled investigative reporter, former atheist who
24:25
Speaker 1: is now a devout Christian. And of course, when I
24:28
Speaker 1: say devout Christian, I don't really see many people think
24:35
Speaker 1: that that means perfect. We are anything but perfect. And
24:39
Speaker 1: that is to me the beauty of Christianity, because if
24:44
Speaker 1: Christ could take the disciples who were quite the lot, okay,
24:50
Speaker 1: and turn them in to heroes, maybe maybe there's a
24:57
Speaker 1: chance for the rest of us. And I'm throwing Paul
25:00
Speaker 1: and that pot to stew. He actually tortured and killed
25:04
Speaker 1: Christians and became a great, great supporter of Christ and
25:11
Speaker 1: is the author of Romans in the Bible, the Book
25:15
Speaker 1: of Romans. Speaking of probative evidence again, Lee, I've described
25:20
Speaker 1: how I now see the world after law school. I
25:25
Speaker 1: went to law school following the murder of my fiance.
25:28
Speaker 1: I went from that emotional mess to becoming a felony prosecutor.
25:37
Speaker 1: And the only way I could do it was to
25:40
Speaker 1: shut out any and all emotion and look at the facts.
25:47
Speaker 1: No my case and their case better than they did,
25:50
Speaker 1: so I could be prepared to destroy it. So I'm
25:55
Speaker 1: asking you about hard evidence. We've talked about eyewitness accounts
26:01
Speaker 1: that saw Christ following, walking and talking, eating food after
26:10
Speaker 1: the resurrection after being crucified, and there was no doubt
26:14
Speaker 1: he was killed because when his body first turned up
26:18
Speaker 1: missing out of the tomb, Pilot sent his hitch people
26:24
Speaker 1: to look in all of the graves, mass graves, burial
26:28
Speaker 1: grounds to try to find his body to parade it
26:31
Speaker 1: and show, look, he's really dead, but it couldn't be found. Now,
26:35
Speaker 1: what I want to talk to you about is contemporaneous
26:40
Speaker 1: writings at the time about Christ and contemporaneous means a
26:46
Speaker 1: lot to me because we are very willing to accept.
26:49
Speaker 1: For instance, the story of the Trojan War in Iliad
26:52
Speaker 1: and Odyssey written by Homer, and that was written hundreds
26:56
Speaker 1: of years after the Trojan War. I believe it was
26:59
Speaker 1: written in the same with the right century. But yeah,
27:01
Speaker 1: we're like, yeah, okay, I get it. Trojan War, it happened.
27:05
Speaker 1: Why is it such heresy to say John three sixteen
27:09
Speaker 1: true story. I don't get the difference. I want to
27:13
Speaker 1: talk about writings at the time by non Christians that
27:17
Speaker 1: talk about Christ.
27:19
Speaker 2: Well, we have all kinds of evidence from the first century.
27:23
Speaker 2: You know, Jesus really proved his divinity by returning from
27:26
Speaker 2: the dead. Before he died, he got up before a
27:28
Speaker 2: group and he said, I and the Father are one.
27:31
Speaker 2: And the Greek word for one there is not masculinus neuter,
27:34
Speaker 2: which means Jesus was not saying I and the Father
27:37
Speaker 2: are the same person. He was saying, I and the
27:39
Speaker 2: Father are the same thing or one in nature. We're
27:42
Speaker 2: one in essence. And the audience understood that we were saying,
27:45
Speaker 2: because they picked up stones to kill him. He said,
27:47
Speaker 2: you you're just a man and you're claiming to be God.
27:50
Speaker 2: So Jesus claimed to be gone, but so what anybody
27:53
Speaker 2: can do that? But it was his resurrection that proved
27:56
Speaker 2: that he is indeed who he claimed to be, the
27:58
Speaker 2: unique son of God. And so you would expect that
28:01
Speaker 2: there would be writings in the first century shortly thereafter
28:04
Speaker 2: that would establish the truth of the resurrection. And we
28:08
Speaker 2: do have this report with named eye witnesses and groups
28:10
Speaker 2: of eyewitnesses that has been dated back to within months
28:13
Speaker 2: of his death. I mean, I don't know if people
28:15
Speaker 2: realize how significant that is historically when you consider the
28:18
Speaker 2: first two biographies of Alexander the Great were written by
28:21
Speaker 2: Arian and Plutarch four hundred years after his life, and
28:25
Speaker 2: they're generally considerable. And yet here we have a report
28:28
Speaker 2: going back within months of his death, after he affirmed
28:31
Speaker 2: who he is by attorney from the dead. Not only that,
28:33
Speaker 2: but we've had, as I mentioned, the nine ancient sources
28:37
Speaker 2: confirming the conviction of the Disciples that they did encounter
28:39
Speaker 2: him resurrected. The Disciples were in a different position of
28:44
Speaker 2: all human beings who've ever lived on the planet. They
28:47
Speaker 2: were there, they touched the resurrected Jesus. They talked to them,
28:50
Speaker 2: they ate with them. They knew for a fact. They
28:53
Speaker 2: didn't just believe it. They knew for a fact is
28:55
Speaker 2: this true or is it a lie? And knowing it
28:59
Speaker 2: was true, they were willing to live lives of deprivation
29:02
Speaker 2: and suffering. They were willing to die for their proclamation
29:05
Speaker 2: that Jesus had risen. Nobody knowingly and willingly dies for
29:11
Speaker 2: a lie.
29:12
Speaker 1: Joining me is another special guest. In addition to Strobel,
29:16
Speaker 1: Father Pausania, Michael Lacona, and Billy Hollowell. Longtime friend and
29:23
Speaker 1: colleague now author Guy Powell, host of podcasts The Backstory
29:29
Speaker 1: on the Shroud of Turan, which is amazing. It's incredible
29:35
Speaker 1: your podcast, but also author of a brand new book,
29:39
Speaker 1: one of many, The Only Witness A History of the
29:44
Speaker 1: Shroud of Turin, I believe. Could you show me your copy.
29:48
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've got one handy, Guy Powell new book,
29:52
Speaker 1: The Only Witness A History of the Shroud of Turin.
29:56
Speaker 1: I want to follow up Guy on something that Strobel
29:59
Speaker 1: Lee Strobe just said. He is referring to eyewitnesses. He's
30:05
Speaker 1: referring to people that came in contact with the disciples
30:10
Speaker 1: and described what they said and how they were willing
30:13
Speaker 1: to die for what they witnessed. I want to talk
30:16
Speaker 1: to you, and this ties in with your assertion that
30:20
Speaker 1: the shroud of Turin is real, that it was used
30:24
Speaker 1: to wrap the body of Christ, and he emerged from
30:29
Speaker 1: the tomb and the shroud survived with his imprint on it.
30:35
Speaker 1: I want to refer you to Cornelius Tacitus. He lived
30:40
Speaker 1: fifty six to one twenty AD. Secular, secular, non religious.
30:47
Speaker 1: And this is what I look for when I try
30:49
Speaker 1: a case. Say I put up an eyewitness. I know
30:52
Speaker 1: he's going to be he she's going to be attacked
30:54
Speaker 1: on cross examination, hopefully not destroyed. But I look for
30:58
Speaker 1: corroborating facts. How can I corroborate? Can I corroborate what
31:03
Speaker 1: this witness has said with impartial evidence? Okay, then I
31:10
Speaker 1: can tell a Jerry. This is why you should believe
31:13
Speaker 1: Guy Powell, because one, two, three, and four it's irrefutable.
31:16
Speaker 1: I don't care what they say, so Guy. Back to
31:20
Speaker 1: Cornelie's Tacitus. He confirmed several historical elements that have been
31:24
Speaker 1: found in secular, non religious texts, for instance, that Christ
31:30
Speaker 1: did live in Judea, was crucified under pontchous pilots, his
31:36
Speaker 1: followers were persecuted and murdered, and much more so. So
31:41
Speaker 1: much of the story is corroborated by secular, non religious translation.
31:49
Speaker 1: They don't have a dog in the fight, no skin
31:51
Speaker 1: of the game, they don't care corroborates the story of Christ.
31:55
Speaker 8: Yeah, that is such an important piece of the evidence
32:00
Speaker 8: and the proof of the resurrection, you know, that singular
32:03
Speaker 8: thing that really defines Christianity. And you know, and even
32:07
Speaker 8: when you look at those other writers and how they
32:11
Speaker 8: also reflect what's been written in the Gospels as well.
32:15
Speaker 2: You know.
32:15
Speaker 8: So you have, you know, the appearances and those are
32:18
Speaker 8: written in the Gospels. You have then the crucifixion that's
32:22
Speaker 8: described in the gospels. You have the the the wounds
32:25
Speaker 8: that he suffered, and and and other evidence that's of
32:29
Speaker 8: course now found on the shrouds. So you have the
32:32
Speaker 8: written evidence that you've been talking about so far. But
32:35
Speaker 8: now we have actually what I believe to be physical
32:38
Speaker 8: evidence that reflects what's in the in the four Gospels,
32:43
Speaker 8: with the wounds to the hands, with the wounds to
32:46
Speaker 8: the feet, with the wounds to the side, with the
32:48
Speaker 8: crown of thorns, with the beating and the and the
32:52
Speaker 8: wounds from all of those whippings that he suffered, and
32:57
Speaker 8: the shroud of Turin reflects all of that. And so
33:01
Speaker 8: I think that you know that right there, in addition
33:03
Speaker 8: to all of these writings from the contemporary authors contemporaneous authors,
33:09
Speaker 8: also reflects that another dimension of proof that supports these
33:14
Speaker 8: other writers.
33:15
Speaker 4: He was nailed to a cross and hung between two
33:17
Speaker 4: convicted thieves. A sign attached to the top of the
33:20
Speaker 4: cross said Jesus of Nazareth, king of the Jews. Crucifixion
33:25
Speaker 4: is not a fast death, and the Gospel of Mark
33:27
Speaker 4: says Jesus was crucified at the third hour or nine am.
33:30
Speaker 4: While on the cross, Jesus was taunted and harassed. Around noon,
33:34
Speaker 4: darkness covered the earth and lasted for hours. In the
33:37
Speaker 4: ninth hour, around three pm, Jesus died on the cross.
33:48
Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Grace.
33:54
Speaker 4: In the Bible. The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke
33:56
Speaker 4: describe a darkness covering the land from noon to three
33:59
Speaker 4: peace during jesus crucifixion. Dallas was a historian and secular
34:03
Speaker 4: writer around fifty a d who is probably the earliest
34:06
Speaker 4: secular writer to mention Jesus, but his works don't exist
34:10
Speaker 4: anymore except where quoted by Julius Africanus in two twenty
34:13
Speaker 4: one AD. Dallas previously tried to explain the way the
34:17
Speaker 4: darkness occurring at jesus crucifixion. He said, quote on the
34:21
Speaker 4: whole world there pressed the most fearful darkness, and the
34:24
Speaker 4: rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in
34:27
Speaker 4: Judea and other districts were thrown down this darkness. Thallas,
34:32
Speaker 4: in the third book of his history calls as appears
34:35
Speaker 4: to me without reason an eclipse of the sun.
34:38
Speaker 1: The darkness and the temple being ripped in half has
34:44
Speaker 1: now been corroborated. Well, it was already corroborated in ancient
34:47
Speaker 1: writings by Tallis in the third book of his history,
34:50
Speaker 1: straight out to Lie's struggle. I find it very interesting
34:53
Speaker 1: that in your case for Christ, you report many, many
34:57
Speaker 1: Roman accounts of corroboration of the story of Christ and
35:02
Speaker 1: the resurrection, but you also refer to Jewish accounts. Christ
35:09
Speaker 1: was a Jew, and you refer to the Talmud and
35:13
Speaker 1: important Jewish work where he was referred to as a
35:17
Speaker 1: false messiah who quote practiced magic and would heal people
35:23
Speaker 1: through some magical means. I find that very corroborative.
35:27
Speaker 2: Well, very much so. And also the Talmud also reports
35:31
Speaker 2: that Jesus was executed and thus killed. You know, a
35:34
Speaker 2: lot of skeptics like I had been, said, well, maybe
35:37
Speaker 2: Jesus didn't die on the cross, Maybe he survived the crucifixion,
35:42
Speaker 2: maybe he fainted, maybe the cool, damp air of the
35:45
Speaker 2: tomb resuscitated him. And so that's where this idea of
35:48
Speaker 2: the resurrection came from. But we have five ancient sources
35:52
Speaker 2: outside the Bible that report the execution of Jesus, including Josephus,
35:56
Speaker 2: a first century Jewish historian, Tacitus of Oarsarapian, Lucian, and
36:02
Speaker 2: the Jewish Talman. In fact, get this, even the Journal
36:07
Speaker 2: of the American Medical Association, a secular, scientific, peer reviewed
36:11
Speaker 2: medical journal, carried an investigation into the death of Jesus,
36:15
Speaker 2: and their conclusion was quote Clearly, the weight of the
36:18
Speaker 2: historical and medical evidence indicates that Jesus was dead even
36:23
Speaker 2: before the wound to his side was inflicted. So this
36:26
Speaker 2: idea that somehow Jesus survived the crucifixion is disproven by
36:31
Speaker 2: reports inside the New Testament, outside the New Testament, and
36:35
Speaker 2: even the Journal of the American Medical Association, to the
36:38
Speaker 2: point where one of the most famous atheist New Testament scholar,
36:42
Speaker 2: Garret Ludeman, said, it is indisputable historically that Jesus died
36:48
Speaker 2: an he was crucified.
36:50
Speaker 1: The dying part I get Father sedik Pazania is the resurrection.
36:56
Speaker 1: I believe that it bears great scrutiny. I have been
37:00
Speaker 1: convinced for many, many reasons. But Father, really the cold,
37:05
Speaker 1: damn air in the tomb revived him. He was almost
37:10
Speaker 1: severed and half with a sword through his side, one
37:13
Speaker 1: side to the next. He was dead, Father. And also
37:19
Speaker 1: can I get you to address Father? Which I find
37:22
Speaker 1: very significant the fact that women, who are so mistreated
37:27
Speaker 1: around the world, so looked down upon, so not able
37:30
Speaker 1: to speak, women Mary and Mary Magdalene were the first
37:36
Speaker 1: to find him. They were the ones to find that
37:39
Speaker 1: he was no longer in the tomb. I find that
37:41
Speaker 1: very significant.
37:42
Speaker 3: I do too, because you would think that the gospel
37:45
Speaker 3: writers would want to downplay that, but they told the
37:48
Speaker 3: truth as it was that a woman, a second class
37:51
Speaker 3: cisten in that society, was the first to witness the resurrection,
37:56
Speaker 3: and if they were trying to create a lie scenario.
38:00
Speaker 3: They wouldn't have said that at all. But let me
38:02
Speaker 3: say this also. You quoted Thomas the doubter, and Jesus
38:08
Speaker 3: said to him, you believe because you've seen a Blessed
38:11
Speaker 3: to those who believe without seeing. Whether it be the
38:14
Speaker 3: shroud or the evidence we're presenting. In a trial, jury
38:19
Speaker 3: goes to talk talk things over. Then they have to
38:23
Speaker 3: make a decision. And I think that's what God wants
38:26
Speaker 3: from us. He wants faith, wants us to make a decision.
38:29
Speaker 3: He could have given us more evidence, but I think
38:33
Speaker 3: it's exactly the way God wanted it, and now it's
38:36
Speaker 3: our choice. Blessed to those who believe without seeing, and
38:41
Speaker 3: as you believe, you will see. That's the Gospel of John.
38:45
Speaker 3: Seeing doesn't come just by seeing, it comes through faith.
38:49
Speaker 3: And that's what I think this whole program is about.
38:52
Speaker 3: We're hoping to inspire people's faith that there not only
38:55
Speaker 3: is a resurrection, but it can change your life. So
38:58
Speaker 3: Blessed to those who believe without seeing.
39:01
Speaker 1: To Billie Hallowell joining us from CBN, gimme your best
39:07
Speaker 1: case for the resurrection.
39:09
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think the biggest question of where the body
39:12
Speaker 5: is we've gone through so many facts today. I mean,
39:15
Speaker 5: I look at Paul in his life. I mean, these
39:17
Speaker 5: are radical transformations. You have the five hundred. I think
39:21
Speaker 5: it's important to go back to that. And if you
39:22
Speaker 5: look at where these five hundred people who apparently all
39:25
Speaker 5: saw Jesus at the same time after his death and resurrection,
39:29
Speaker 5: it's written in First Corinthians. That book was written in
39:31
Speaker 5: a D fifty five and as Lee was saying, this
39:35
Speaker 5: was at a time when most of the people were
39:37
Speaker 5: still alive. I mean, you think about you have to
39:39
Speaker 5: put all the pieces together into a puzzle, and when
39:42
Speaker 5: you do that, it becomes remarkable that somebody Paul would
39:46
Speaker 5: be willing to write that. But I think the biggest evidence,
39:49
Speaker 5: obviously everything we've talked about extending into today, and most
39:53
Speaker 5: of my job is spent talking to people whose lives
39:56
Speaker 5: have changed. They've gone from prison to finding Jesus. They've
39:59
Speaker 5: gone from her horrific careers in drugs and other places.
40:02
Speaker 5: I won't even mention into becoming pastors. What is it
40:05
Speaker 5: that changes a person. It's the very same thing through
40:08
Speaker 5: the resurrection that we see in the Bible, and we're
40:11
Speaker 5: seeing that still in people's lives.
40:12
Speaker 1: Today. Well, put Billy Guy Powell. Having prosecuted crimes for
40:17
Speaker 1: so long, horrible felonies, people torturing each other, literally, torturing babies, murdering,
40:25
Speaker 1: just drugs, I'm convinced that just as there is a
40:30
Speaker 1: Holy Father, that there is a devil. I don't know
40:35
Speaker 1: the ins and outs, I don't know the details, but
40:38
Speaker 1: from what I've seen, it's very real in our world. Guy,
40:43
Speaker 1: best case for the resurrection hit me?
40:46
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, I agree with everybody else, but I
40:49
Speaker 8: think the best case is the Shroud of Turin. It
40:53
Speaker 8: is a physical proof that has actual proof and elements
41:00
Speaker 8: in it that reflect the resurrection and reflect the I'm sorry,
41:04
Speaker 8: reflect the gospels. All four of the Gospels talk about
41:08
Speaker 8: the inhumane, the devilish things that the Romans did to
41:12
Speaker 8: this man. And each one of those things, the crown
41:16
Speaker 8: of thorns as you're showing the you know, the whip marks,
41:20
Speaker 8: that the nailing through the hands and the feet, and
41:26
Speaker 8: then the side wound to make sure that he was dead.
41:28
Speaker 8: All of those are reflected on the shroud. And that
41:32
Speaker 8: shroud then has been around for two thousand years. It
41:36
Speaker 8: has proof, many many different proofs that indicate that it
41:40
Speaker 8: is two thousand years old, and that it has, you know,
41:44
Speaker 8: survived all of these earthquakes and fires and things like that,
41:48
Speaker 8: and it would never have survived if it wasn't the
41:50
Speaker 8: proof to me, if it wasn't the proof that Jesus
41:53
Speaker 8: Christ lived on the earth, he walked with us, and
41:57
Speaker 8: then he died and was resurrected.
41:59
Speaker 1: Guy Powell, author of The Only Witness, A History of
42:02
Speaker 1: the Shroud of Turin. If you still doubt, which I'm
42:07
Speaker 1: sure many people do, conduct your own investigation as Les
42:13
Speaker 1: Trouble did, as Father Pausania did, Michael Lacone, Guy Powell,
42:17
Speaker 1: Billy Hallowell. Find out the truth for yourself beyond a
42:23
Speaker 1: reasonable doubt. John three point sixteen True story Nancy Grace
42:30
Speaker 1: signing off goodbye friend,