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What I've Learnt - Nigel Barker · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: Nigel Barker is an internationally renowned photographer and entrepreneur who opened his New York studio in 1996.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: He served 17 seasons as photographer and judge on the hit TV show America's Next Top Model, which airs in over 140 countries and hosted Oxygen Network's modelling competition series The Face, starring alongside Naomi Campbell.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: Barker's presence in the fashion and entertainment industry has resulted in an array of exciting projects.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: He's directed and produced films, documentaries, and commercials for Hollywood clients to international charitable organisations, and was awarded the Film Heels Award for Humanitarianism at the sixth annual Manhattan Film Festival for Dreams Are Not Forgotten.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: Drawing upon his 20 plus years of experience in the fashion and beauty industries, he has two books, The Beauty Equation, published by Abrams, and his latest book, New York Times Bestseller, Models of Influence.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: Nigel currently lives in New York with his wife and renowned yogi Kristen Acker at Chin Twins, check it out, and their two children, Jack and Jasmine.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: So, Nigel, thank you for your time.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the What I've Learned podcast from Sunny Australia.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how sunny it is over there.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: How are you?
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Lovely to have you.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Lovely to be on and um and to sort of be tuning into Australia.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: I love Australia.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: I love Australians.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: I have Australian family of my own.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, one whole part of my family moved to Australia back in the 60s.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like uh there's definitely synergy with me and the Aussies.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so have you visited your family over here?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, no, absolutely.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: And one small group of them actually also went to New Zealand.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got in but on and on and that part of the world in general, uh, you know, I I mean, clearly any smart Brit back in the day knew to move to warmer climes and to move to Australia or New Zealand or something like that, because you know, growing up in the UK was a grey and uh and and sort of dreary place to grow up.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: But uh hence I I left pretty early on and headed off into the rest of the world.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: Well, actually, I've got some very close friends who are who are Brits, very close girlfriends, all from London, and they live here and they yes, they can't even comprehend how many freezing grey days they had in the UK, and now they're on the beaches in sunny Oz.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: Although not all the time, not all the time, but we're pretty good.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: So are your family in Melbourne or Sydney?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Sydney.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I must say it's a pleasure to have you on board, and there's just so much to talk about because you have done a lot and you're a wonderful creative, and I love a creative person because I suppose the world is our oyster.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: We can explore all different avenues, which you certainly do.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: Can I just touch on you have worked with some incredible people in your role with America's Next Top Model, and we will touch on that, but just tell me how that came to be and how you ended up in that role.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, you know, sort of long story shortish for you, it's just other because it is a sort of a rambler, but having worked in fashion for years, even before top model, now I started in fashion when I was 17, 18 years old, you know, and became a model, was actually designing hats and all kinds of stuff connected to fashion as a kid and got through that, became a photographer, you know, so I'm fast forwarding here.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: And as I was becoming a photographer, you know, I was working in New York, is that my very first spot.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned I opened my studio in 96, and I sort of came to America in the large part to sort of reinvent myself because I had been a model in Europe and been quite successful.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'd done a few stints in the US, but only for a few months at a time.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I was somewhat unknown.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a safe place for me to go and start afresh and brand new.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: And as a part of that, I sort of started shooting various people, various models, and had hooked up and worked up with a few different people, including Jay Alexander, Jay Manuel, uh, and um a guy called Nolet Maron, who are all uh a part of Top Model.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: And very early on, after the first season of Top Model, I got a call uh from Nolay, like Nigel, they're looking to cast photographers for the next season.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't you submit your book?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh him and I had worked together as a stylist and photographer, and um, you know, they might want you to book you for a job and book you for you know an episode.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, sure, why not?
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember going to the uh sort of audition they had where they wanted to put me on camera, and um and I literally showed up at Jay Manuel's house in in the city and uh and they asked me to look at a magazine and critique it.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I kind of went through and I critiqued it and you know, talked about the photographs, and you know, I didn't think much more of it, other than that, you know, they they sort of it went quite well, I guess.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: And but then I didn't hear anything for about six weeks, and so I thought, okay, but I clearly didn't get that job.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh well, you know, that's a shame.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: It would have been fun, you know, because it's I certainly had enjoyed season one, and I thought what a how fun it would be to be on television for an episode.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: My mum would love it, kind of thing.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, and then I got a call from producers and said, Look, we're really sorry for taking our time to get back in touch with you, but you know, we basically really like you, and your tape has kept on going up and up and up and up the food chain.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we'd like to actually not just ask you to be a photographer for one episode, but would you consider being a permanent judge for the entire season?
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Whoa, wow.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, wouldn't it come true?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, was this season one?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, this was the second season.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Season two, yeah, yeah.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I came on season two.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I did I really didn't know what I was in for.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I you know, it was one of those things where, you know, with hindsight, clearly it was a good idea.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: But at the time, I was also like, ooh, uh sure, I guess that sounds really fun, but uh, you know, is my schedule clear?
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: I have other work, I'm I I do, you know, it's not like I was just waiting around for top model to confirm.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: It was just meant to be a you know a one-day thing that I was gonna do sometime during my, you know, and then all of a sudden you're like signed on to a show that's gonna film for several months.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it was something that I had to really consider.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: Also, you have to realize, and again, it's it seems funny and obvious now with hindsight, but back then the fashion industry was very exclusive and they didn't look kindly on sort of mass and doing things on sort of prime time television.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: It seemed like a sell-out move.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I had to be careful because I had spent a long time building myself to who I was at that moment, shooting for magazines and cool magazines.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, they were like, oh, you know, if you're gonna work on a show like Top Model, are you what are you working in television now?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's because television seemed like it was different, it wasn't the same, it's not the same world.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: It seemed like a little bit of a sort of a you were carefully curated, you were carefully cultivated to some degree, which uh allowed you to have a certain lens or status or perspective.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: And potentially what you're saying is it's like going and joining something that at that time did not necessarily have the credibility, maybe that it grew to have.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: It was still in its early phases.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, look, absolutely.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you if you train to become a chef, and then you know, you then you you get you asked to work at a fast food restaurant, it could have repercussions, right?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: You may people may not take you seriously if you then want to go back to work in a high, you know, in a nice restaurant.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: But the reality was is that I also realized that, and I don't mean that about top model itself, I rather mean it about television.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it television is what it was.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: What interest what I knew though, and the reason why I made the decision is because I thought what Tyra was doing was very interesting.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: She was, you know, changing the sort of face of fashion and she was opening the doors to this exclusive world to the masses and showing people what it was like and what was going on in it.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: And oftentimes the fashion industry kind of poo-pooed the show.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, it's a latest, uh, yeah, yeah.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: There's a sense of, I I know exactly.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: There's a there was a sense of, oh, really?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, but it turned out.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's a bit over the top.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, a bit over the top, but also even I think your point's really important though, because what she has done is make it accessible and made made fashion still very classy and hasn't compromised that aspect.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: But the point of what appealed to you is that there was a sense of this is accessible and it should be for young designers.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I I also saw it as a pioneering move, as in you, you know, I had a sense that the world was changing at that moment.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I I remember thinking the way the industry worked couldn't really go on like that forever, and that there was a groundswell, and you have to understand too, for those who are listening, that there was no social media at the time.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like I started the show in 2003.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: This was pre-Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, there was no real kind of sense of what and in many ways I felt that reality television, which was very big in the UK when I grew up, and you know, you have shows like Ibitha Unplugged, that was one of the very first sort of big reality shows, and it was messy, it was chaotic, it was people partying and being sick and hanging out and having hangovers and you know, the whole nine yards, but people loved it, they couldn't get enough of it.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I realized then that reality shows were precursors to social media.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: People loved to see behind the scenes, they loved to see the making of, they wanted to see the real, the grit, the you know, unretouched, the sort of how people behaved and spoke to one another.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: And and in a way, that's what Top Model also did, it ripped the band-aid off fashion and let people look right underneath it and be like, whoa, that's how it works.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's a photo shoot, that's how a stylist speaks to someone, that's what a fashion designer does when they dress as someone.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I've always wondered, I, you know, otherwise all you see is the glossy pages of a magazine.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: And this was the opening of the inside of all of that.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: So, really, it was the authenticity that really sold that show, the sense that, first of all, how tough the ladder is, that people who were in the fashion industry had to climb hard and fast to get up it.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, it really was, as you say, it opened a door or a window onto a world that had otherwise been very hard to access for a lot of people.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: So, for you, you suddenly find yourself, tell me what it was like working with Tyra Banks and what was your perspective on her?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: Because she was pretty brave at the time and no holds barred in terms of a lot of the things that she said and did.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: No, the women, we had a great time.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: We had, I was there for 17 seasons as a permanent judge.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: I worked on another season after the fact as a part-time judge later on.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, it was both very eye-opening.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, she's a businesswoman, she's you know, makes smart decisions.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: She ran that ship.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, she really did, um, along with Ken Mock, our producer of the show.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: But all decisions went through her.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it was amazing to watch her not really just be talent, but to really executive produce the show properly.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I was I've always been a bit of a sponge, and you know, I watched very carefully how she ran the ship and what she did and decisions that she was making and how controlling she was over every aspect of it, you know, because it was her baby.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: She created it, she made it, she wrote it, and she wanted it to be a certain way and feel a certain way.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, and it was also her industry.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, if you do one of the reasons why it's so successful is because she hired people like, say, myself and Jay Alexander and Jay Manuel who were not television people.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: We weren't, say, people who are seasoned vets from television that would know how to do things on TV.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: We were just actually legitimate people from the fashion industry who she wanted to bring on board.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that, again, that authenticity of, you know what, if you're going to speak to a photographer, speak to a photographer.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: If you're going to speak to a stylist, speak to a stylist, not speak to someone who perhaps is just famous and therefore would be good on television because people would know who they are and would want to hear what they had to say.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think in many ways, some reality shows after ours certainly failed in many ways because they would bring on celebrities and famous people.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you're right, because I think that gave it the credibility.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: And obviously, Tyra herself has, you know, she also has that very uh strong credibility as well.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: So for you, was she collaborative at all?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: And did you get to have any?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm interested just how collaborative that process is.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, on the shoots that I was doing and things, I mean, she would, you know, we would come up with the concepts with her team, and they would normally present me with two or three concepts that I got to then pick the one I wanted to do.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, initially, early days, it was not so much like that because I was new.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: I was the new kid, but on the block.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then, but as I became more of a permanent options and the sort of style of the shoot, and even down to things like the location of the shoot, all that kind of stuff, I would have saying, and you know, when you first walk in the door, they're not gonna hand over the reins.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: And so for you, do you think that that was her skill and that's why the show worked?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think it's many things.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's all it's about the zeitgeist of the times, it's about people wanting change, it's about also understanding that a show like Top Model wasn't just about opening up the doors of fashion so people could have a look in.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: It was about changing what was happening in fashion.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things was that there weren't many models of color, there still aren't enough, and she wanted to change that.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: So diversity was key for her.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: Inclusion, she wanted to be have models who were, you know, of different sizes, of different heights, and and you know, that was all sort of it seems today to be somewhat obvious, but back then it was not.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we would have things like a full-figured plus size model on who is who, to be honest, was hardly even full-figured.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it people would be like, Oh, that's not, you know, the fashion industry, even people would say, Oh, that's you know, how could she be a model or something like that?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: And you're like, well, that's ridiculous.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's what people are in the real world, and they need to be dressed.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, now we've got supermodels like Ashley Graham, who appeared on top model as well, who are you know full-figured models, and and and they and a and the world has has made that leap.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: But back then, yeah, that's why it was so pioneering in many ways.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's easy to forget those things because we we know we you know don't remember what it was like, or people don't know because they didn't live through it.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: But certainly when, you know, I I'd been a model myself and had started in the industry since in 1989, so had had many, many years of experience of what it was like, you know, living through the sort of heron-chic androgyny eras of the 90s and you know, feeling what it was like in the early 2000s, and then realizing that a lot needed to be shaken up and changed to really make this industry current and relevant.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: And now this is this is what everyone's doing.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, to be honest, it was so ahead of the game.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: No, it was, it was very much ahead of the game.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it was one of the reasons why.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you look at the numbers on that show, it wasn't just a big show in the US, it became a global juggernaut.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's the it's syndicated, and at one point we had an audience of around 100 million people worldwide watching the show in sort of 150 countries.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it actually had a greater viewership at one point than Baywatch, you know.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it was uh one of those kind of colossal shows outside of the US that that I think again people didn't appreciate, perhaps in the US or any one country because they didn't know what was happening elsewhere in the world.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it's still watched everywhere to this day.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, reruns in the US everywhere, and you know, being and it's currently watched in various countries throughout South America and Asia and Europe as if it were brand new right now.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: Another person that was extraordinary that you've worked with is Naomi Campbell.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me about her because she's another cutting-edge extraordinary woman that you just can't believe her trajectory is so impressive and also inspiring.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: It changed really it changed the dialogue, both these women.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: What was she like to work with?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Naomi for me was a lot of fun to work with.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, I had a blast with Naomi.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: I I first worked with Naomi, I would say probably it was about '94 in Paris with Chanel as a model.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I did a show with her, with Carl Agefeld, who was overseeing the whole thing, and at the at the Louvre.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that was my first meeting when I first met her for the very first time.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it was, I was sort of back then.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: I remember I was blown away.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: I remember Carl Agerfeld with all these supermodels were around me and her and us in this room.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: And Carl picked Naomi to basically demonstrate how he wanted something to be walked in.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: And she walked in front of me, and it seems like such an obvious thing.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: Can you walk in this?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, as if, like, we all know how to walk, right?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: But then you don't.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: You don't you realize you don't know how to walk until when you see Naomi walk, and all of a sudden it's a whole new definition of walking.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, she would make a stallion look embarrassed.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the way she I love that.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, I can picture it.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: I yeah, I can see, I mean, you know, you've seen we've all seen her on the catwalk so many times, and that she's just mesmerizing.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: That is really somebody who so there's another example, and and to be working with these people, you must have learnt a lot yourself about, you know, that concept of do you think beauty is in the eye of the beholder, which is very much your because you're the photographer, you're the lens, but you've also been on the other side of the lens.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's great that you're you saw that there would needed to be an evolution for you because clearly that side interested you more once you'd done all the modeling side.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: The modeling side personally didn't really ever sort of move me myself.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: I like the process, but I'm I like to be creative.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: I like to really be as in control and as in charge of what I'm doing as much as I can be.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: And unless you are a sort of a supermodel of the likes of Tyra Banks and Naomi Campbell, you don't get as much control over your image or of the picture as you know, if you're just a regular model.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's really the photographer, the designer, the editor, they're the ones who really help, you know, creative direct what that image is going to look like.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, obviously you you appear in it and it's your face and your image, but it's you know that they're the ones who really sort of talk about and create what that's going to be.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I knew too that I wanted some longevity in this industry that I loved, and I didn't want to be modeling, certainly not for lot forever, nor did I think I could, um, because the industry changes and it's very, very hard to maintain at any level as trying to be like being a pro athlete and wanting to work in the NBA until you're 50 or something.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's not an easy that's not something that happens very often.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's few and far between if you're you know even past 30.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I I made that decision pretty early on in my 20s to make that move, large part because I had been a model in the 80s when it was a time of opulence and over the top.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I've seen your photos and some of them were really great.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: They're so iconic, 80s and 90s, you know, and it's wonderful because you get to do that in your youth.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: And but the fact that you adapted and morphed and saw that there was something else.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think the concept of beauty has changed?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you think it's just no, I know 100%.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's 100% changed, you know.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I would also say that, you know, I mean, my own definition, I mean, I wasn't not like I was born knowing what it was, I what the right concept for beauty was.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember very specifically having a very big awakening.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: I I had become a photographer on top model by this point, and I had been asked by Make a Wish, the Make a Wish Foundation, to grant a wish for a girl who had um cancer, and she her wish was to be a model for the day, and she was a big top model fan, and she'd asked if I could do the photo shoot for her.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: And they came to me with this wish, and it was the very first wish I granted.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Her name was Nikki Mueller, and um I of course accepted, and I was you know excited, and we were doing this photo shoot in New York, and she flew in, and it was a big fanfare, and making it her day very special.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: And this young lady was 14, I think, at the time, and she had had cancer, and her arm had been very badly damaged and had a very bad scar, and it was sort of wizened and stuck to her side, and one side of her body was quite scarred, and the other side was, you know, for lack of a better word, perfect.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, as in it was not no scarred, looked normal.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember I was photographing her in this dress that was sort of low-cut, and she faced me with the scarred arm, and she looked at me with these big blue eyes, and these, you know, these eyes that just had so much depth to them and so much experience at this you know short period of her life because of what she'd been through.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: And and I remember thinking, okay, I'll do a couple of pictures like this, then I'll turn her around and I'll photograph the sort of pretty side where it's perfect, you know, and because that's because you don't want to see the scars and all of that kind of thing.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: And she then, you know, I I asked if she'd turn, and she sort of said, Oh, I'd rather just I'd rather shoot from this side, and I and I was like thinking to myself, really, why?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: And she said, Well, and literally she sort of read my mind.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: She said, This is this is why I'm here, you know, this is my story, and this is what makes me me.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: At that moment, I just looked at this girl's eyes, and I literally my definition of beauty was changed like that, and and I I I was just so blown away by it, and I was she was like 100% right.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh my god, you know, yes, yeah, yes, you're you are.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: That is what it is, because I see the both the courage and the bravery in your beautiful blue eyes, and I see the pain and the hardship that you've been through on your arm, and they're both there together, and that is what makes you beautiful and unique and special, and that will be my new definition of beauty going forward, will be the truth, and that is there's nothing more spectacular than that, you know.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean when I wrote a book called The Beauty Equation, actually on the back cover, there's a picture of her right there, you know, um, from that moment, and you know, she really helped me you know really reconsider what beauty was and define beauty for myself and and and put me on a mission to really help people, you know, discover their true beauty, which was really from the inside out.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: It was you know, you can be as physically say attractive as you uh uh you know, like with perfection if you look at oh, the eyes should.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Be here, the nose is this length, and size of the forehead, and the clan, you know, but all of that doesn't make a person attractive.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: It makes them, it can make them say physically pretty on paper.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: But what really you know makes us interested and like someone and find them charismatic is their personality, is their soul, is the way they react, is the way they talk, it's their sense of humor, it's their knowledge, it's their wisdom, it's the way they talk to you, it's their kindness, it's their grace, it's their humility.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it's those things, that package that makes us fall in love.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And trust me, if you've fallen in love for any other reason, you're probably not gonna work in that relationship.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's it is because of those things.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's the reason why we love our parents, it's the reason why our, you know, we can we you can love someone and fall madly in love with them, and it's because of that that story, not because of the way they look, because that's gonna change.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it is gonna change, and I love what you've just said because it's very much what I try to capture in this podcast, which is exactly that, which is people's souls, their stories.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I think one of the things about the next top model, which is everywhere, is that it it does highlight the physical beauty, and I understand that.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: But what I love is that you acknowledge that, see that there's some there's a role for that, but there's also a role for other photography or other forms of beauty.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's really important, particularly for young people.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think one of the hardest things, you know, and I have daughters, and and I know you have a daughter too, it's just it's about trying to ensure that yes, we can hold up these notions of beauty, but as you've rightly pointed out, we must make sure that with this, as you say, this zeitgeist of, you know, whether it's next top model or certainly social media, which is ever present, that we balance.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's all.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: No one's saying, I mean, look, if you go back to time immemorial, there's always been a notion of beauty.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: Back, you know, BC.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we're talking, it's not like that's something that's so um new, but what is new is an understanding that I think there's a dialogue, which you've referenced, that we need to make sure that we keep having, because it's very destructive, otherwise, if if those notions of beauty are held up purely as physical.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: And that's that's the challenge of the modeling world, of the fashion world.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I do think, as you said, the dialogue is now much more about how you behave, who you are, you know, whether you're available to give with kindness.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think that is, think we still have a long way to go, or do you think that that is something that is definitely evolving?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, look, I I think it's it's always a work in progress, and no matter what's going on.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: And the more educated we become in these things, the more we realize that there's more to achieve, right?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's sort of, you know, it's one thing to give, say, you know, women the vote.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's another thing to realize that women's rights aren't even close to men's rights still decades later, right?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it's it's it's not like, oh yeah, we've done it now, you know, it's it's all good.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a constant because it's you know, we we've we really on many things we're so far behind on equal rights, fair rights, fair treatment, and and just even being caring and kind, uh, you know, people half the time, really with what does that what does that actually mean?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how are we treating people fairly careful and with caring and love?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that you know, so and ultimately it's also just about representation.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: It can boils down half the time too to business, and and it's funny because you know, when you think about business, and I and I've I've said this many times about the fashion industry, when you make clothes and you only dress a model who's a sort of a certain size, a certain height, a certain look, and all the rest of it, how does that really translate to your audience of people who are actually buying your product?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: And and so, therefore, you know, why would those people want to buy your clothes?
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: And if and it because they know they're not sure that it's going to fit.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's sort of, you know, it's not gonna work.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's sort of, you know, it just doesn't make any sense.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: If you if you bought a drink, a can of coke, for example, and the and the the area you'd have to drink from was this huge, massive hole, you know that when you pour the drink to your face, it was going to go all over your face because there's a massive hole.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so they they they have to make it so that it fits and then we can all drink it.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think with the fashion industry, I've said this so many times in the past now, of course, it's happening, but you know, a real challenge to a designer is can you actually dress, make create clothes that that people can wear, your clients can actually wear, that doesn't have to be fitted or alterated, you know, that and how about sending your styles down a runway on models of different heights, sizes, colors, and all the rest of it, just like the population that you're hoping to dress.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can do that, you've you're truly a success, you know, a brilliant designer, you know, and uh and all you know, and using your imagination versus sort of on a certain only on one shape and size, you know, which obviously makes it much easier for the designer because he doesn't have to think outside that one box, you know, and he can just create around that one aesthetic.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, ultimately the world isn't built of one aesthetic.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the built- the world is built of many, many.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, models hardly speak to a fraction of what the population looks like.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: Totally agree with you on that.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: And in Australia, there's a very big movement towards diversity on that level, and and it is certainly changing dramatically.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, even things like you look at, you know, I always say this to the girls, to a lot of the girls I speak to, look at Beyonce, look at Rihanna, look at the women that have owned it, J Lo.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, these are women who are fashion forward, have, you know, these wonderful curves, which which, to be honest, I'm like, how could you not celebrate that?
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if you speak, if you if you're catering, whether it's male or female, most, you know, plenty of men, if you that's if the male gaze is important to you, then that is often what they're drawn to.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't, so there's this strange dichotomy where the modeling fashion world has created this, you know, as you say, that you know, in the 90s it was the heroine chic look and it's moving away from that.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: But it is so ironic to me that what's been held up as the clothes horses, which is actually what ends up happening for many models, are not necessarily what the average person necessarily wants to wear or is attracted to.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's sort of strange.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: It is well, it is it is strange, and it's a funny thing though, is that I do think that, you know, and I and I like to move the conversation in general when I when I talk about sort of shape and things like that away from being, say, full figured or not, right?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: It really needs to be more about just all shapes, right?
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: So that because it's because even within full figured, there are, you know, there are certain styles, certain shapes, or certain types of curves.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: But again, not everyone is, even if they're curvy, is going to be built with sort of curves in the what in the places that perhaps they want them.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it's sort of like, you know, and there are people who are flat-chested and curvy.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: There are people with big boobs who are not curvy.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: There are people with no, we come, you know, women come, men come in different shapes and sizes.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: The funny thing is, is that the whole story of full-figured modeling and sort of shapely models doesn't exist in male modeling.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: There is no conversation within the male modeling world of having a full-figured male model.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: And and I nor do I know of any.
• 29:21
  unknown: Right?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: So such a good point.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: It is a very good point, but it just goes to show how insanely pressurizing and stressful it is for young women to find their.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it is so it's toxic.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's and I've actually interviewed quite a few people here in Australia.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, in fact, one Jess King is a curve model, who I recently interviewed, and she's doing very well, a bit like Ashley Graham, that notion.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: But I think at a deeper level, what I suppose the concern is obviously is mental health well-being.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I know that you'd want that for your family, I want that for my girls, everyone wants that.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that what you've just highlighted is a very good example of why, and with social media, it's just elevated to such a level that anybody who does not fit certain archetypes, which have been arbitrarily created for whatever reason, or it's very complex, where that uh comes from.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: But I do think we have a very serious problem because the eating disorders have gone through the roof here, like absolutely insane here.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: I know in the US is the same.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: That certainly they do say, well, that's all it's always been around eating disorders.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's certainly been elevated and magnified by expectations and social media, et cetera.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: So the dialogue and what you're talking about, it's very important that we make sure that beauty is defined on many levels and that it's not so restrictive because to be honest, we're still in a very, I think, dangerous space.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's not say just in the in the fashion industry either.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: So this is an issue which I I see in the fitness um arena as well.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, if you look at you know, fitness and and gyms and trainers and all this sort of stuff, it they you know, and obviously one, you know, naturally, perhaps if one is working out a lot, you will be perhaps slimmer or what have you, or perhaps you're gonna be in better condition, you know, when I say better sort of um muscular and your health of your heart and all the rest of it, right?
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: But it but the problem there is that there is a stereotype that to be fit means you are ripped, to be fit means you have a six-pack, to be fit means that you have when ultimately that is not the case.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: And there are plenty of people who are incredibly fit, in great shape, can run marathons, can do everything everyone else does, and they are full-figured, they are curvy, um, and and um but and they are not shredded, and they're not all these things.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, to be shredded requires you to be quite hard on your body in a way that's often unhealthy.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that most athletes only maintain that look during um certain peak moments for competition, um, and it's not something that they maintain all year round.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: And and then there, of course, are people that can, but that's because they are genetically um predisposed to be that way, and so it's not something that they dieted to do, it's not something they even exercise to do.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: My wife is a perfect example.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: She has a six-pack at all times and she's had several children.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: It is not fair.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: She eats as much as I do, and I do not have to be a physical.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: I've seen your beautiful wife and her sister, and you know, and I love the photography that you, you know, it's it's chin twins, isn't it?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: The the Instagram.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I must say, for all my listeners, you have to have a look at this extraordinary photography you do of these of your wife and her sister, um, because it's beautiful.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's so beautiful and very there's sort of a beautiful balance and there's a calmness.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: But anyway, people can look at that because it is really worth having a look.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, she clearly has a natural, she's slim, but she's also toned and she's she does a lot of yoga, and you, you know, it's quite obvious that that's just naturally predisposed that to be that way.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's not as if you know it's only because of the yoga or it's only because of that's why she does these things.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's she she is predisposed to be that way.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I remember as my grandmother telling me when I was a kid that comparisons are odious, and that you know, when you when you look at people and you compare yourself to them and wish you were them, that's not gonna do anything other than make you feel um envious, jealous, and you know, all these things that are gonna harm you in the long run and aren't gonna make you the best person that you can be.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, and and really, you know, I don't love her because she's slim.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: No, clearly, you of course you you know that's a given, but I do think you're right.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: There's also natural predispositions to different um body types, and that's an example of one.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: Interestingly, yeah, it's interesting to see.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I know that you've had a lot of associations with varying designers, and obviously as a photographer, but as a model.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, obviously, recently, sadly, Andre Leontalli died, um, which is very tragic.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I saw you did a beautiful post.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: Can you just talk to me about how you think he impacted the modeling and fashion world?
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, he he's you know, uh was a friend of mine and someone who I respected and you know thought of as a mentor for me.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't have many of them.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, he's someone who I had admired from afar for many years.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he got into fashion as a young man himself, and um uh, you know, he came from a poor family in in the south and uh in the US, and you know, really was taught French by his French teacher who you know who really introduced him to another world that he could dream about.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, finally for him, he found himself going to Paris and discovering an entire world that he didn't know existed and falling in love with the fashion industry.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, but he was a walking encyclopedia of everything that ever happened in the fashion industry.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: He knew of everybody, the times, the dates, what they wore, what it was about, how they'd put it together, what why it made sense for that particular moment, what was happening politically at that moment, and why, therefore, it was relevant, and connected all the dots between all those sorts of things and really kind of um had his finger on the pulse of the fashion industry, a bit of the world at large.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, so whether it was the music that was associated with that moment, as well as the you know, the entertainment industry, as well as what was happening in fashion, it was a rap of all of those types of things, and you know, he was just sort of someone who was a very powerful figure who was quiet at the same time.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: That was what's interesting about him.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: He, you know, there were very few people of colour in the fashion industry.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's still aren't enough, but there were very few when he first got started.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, he set out to change that and and to do it with knowledge, to realize that if people could respect him and realize he was full of he knew what he was talking about and was you know, had all the information that he that anyone could ever possibly you know have in their minds about this business, they realized that they would respect him for his skill and his talent, and that would they would see past perhaps the colour and all the rest of it.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what and he was so brilliant at that, and making people realize, shit, I I've been, you know, why am I prejudiced?
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I shouldn't be prejudiced.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this person is brilliant and genius, and I should have I need my have you know and I need to look past that.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: And and he had set about doing that and you know, and saw change and made change and always stood for people, you know, in order to really increase diversity and inclusion in the fashion industry.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that I respected very heavily.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, he was being very kind to me.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: We worked together after Top Model, we worked together obviously on Top Model for several years, but then he booked me for multiple different jobs as well.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: We worked together on various things.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: I interviewed him, he wrote very nice.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: Whenever I asked him of a favor of anything, any sort, he was always said yes.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: He never hesitated for a moment and was very kind and made introductions and all that kind of thing, and was sort of there for you if you needed him.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's truly what a friend is.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's very sad, and obviously he was revered by many in the fashion industry, and clearly by you, and that's that's really something special, and you're blessed to have had him in your life.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, another sad um piece of news today is Thierry Moogler um passing.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's just been what a what a week or two.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so much talent gone too soon.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, he's described as a visionary whose imagination as a courtier, perfumer, and image maker empowered people around the world to be bolder and dream bigger every day.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's quite extraordinary to me how ever present some of these designers and how much they can change the way that we see our world.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: What's your take on how fashion and design and photography has it really has the power to change a lot of things, doesn't it?
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: And to change the way we see our world politically and at many levels.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it certainly does.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, photography, you know, is a is not just a snapshot of time, but it in the you know, obviously, with a fashion photographer or you know a an artist, they have the ability to help you dream and to help your dreams come to life.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, what is a world without dreams?
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: What is a world without fantasy?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: What is a world without imagination?
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, to be able to illustrate it through fashion, through design, through photography, through image making, through filmmaking and creativity, those are very special things.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that we can all enjoy and see.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think sometimes people don't realize what they're looking for until they see it.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes, you know, when you see someone like Terry Mugler, for example, who was like an architect as much as he was a designer, and his pieces are sculptures that have come to life.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's as if he could take something that you would never think of, you know, almost putting on someone's clothing and and and sort of thinking, like, you know, almost like you're taking a beautiful old car, and then realizing that you know, I like this aspect of the car and this part of the thing, and then turning it into uh, you know, a bodice and something incredible that you could put on and wear, and and it's so your imagination runs wild.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like I want this person to look like a fortress.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna dress them like that.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna use metal, I'm gonna use chain mail, I'm gonna use knives, I'm gonna use there's nothing that I can't, you know.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: If you imagine water pouring on the body, how do I make that come real come to life?
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: How can I actually create something that looks like you're covered in water or sh or covered in ice?
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: Or what would fire look like if it could if I could make it into clothing?
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so, and then they they you know, someone like Terry Mugler would make that happen.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it would, you know, so you would then you could dream.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's like a fantasy.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, who could possibly wear fire, you know, except you know, or water like Kim Kardashian in the water dress, which was, you know, extraordinary.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: That sort of it looked like water, you know.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I I think that's right.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's so it's so funny, isn't it though?
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because like, you know, your your kids go to school, they go to university, they want you want them to be, you know, successful, etc.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: etc.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone dreams, but what's interesting is I think there's this great new opportunity and support and reverence for the arts.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's suddenly, it's always been present, but what you're describing is very much, and I do think social media in a positive sense has driven that out into the stratosphere in ways that it couldn't before, you know.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it's so it's sort of I have a theory behind that too.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, tell me, yeah.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I often think you know, if we if if children aren't given the ability to express themselves, then they they you know, it's very hard for them to find a voice.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you if children aren't given a pencil, for example, how would they ever learn to draw?
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: And how would they ever learn to write?
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: And if they never learn to write, read and write, how would we have the poets?
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: How do we have the authors?
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: If they're never given a pencil, how would they know to you know to create?
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: And what we've done with social media in many ways is arm people with cameras and video cameras in ways that we've never seen before.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, back when I was a child, to have a camera was a luxury, and now it's on everybody's phone, regardless.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, out of nowhere, sort of a billion people have been given a camera.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, it's not a traditional camera with film in the back or a camera, you know, digital camera which it had with interchangeable lenses, but it's like giving someone a pencil.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't make us all authors, it doesn't make us all painters or or writers, neither did giving someone a camera on a phone doesn't make everybody a photographer.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: But for all of those who would never would have had the chance to have picked up a pencil, who never would have seen that maybe they could draw or maybe they could write, there are all these people, thousands, if not tens, if not more, thousands of people who have discovered that they actually do have an eye and they do have the ability to see, and it give and for all of those who who who perhaps aren't that talented, they have an appreciation of what that talent can be.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because they never for the first time they've had a chance to do it.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I see that social media, for your point, has given people a place to show that art, a place to appreciate that art, and a place to share that art.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that is transformative, and that is the positive that comes, you know, we know the negatives of social media, but that is the positive.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, whether it's me with my podcast or you with your photography, you can put things up and you know, thousands of people can see it and engage with you.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so I know for me personally, it's just opened the world that I already've been a journalist for 20 years, but this has opened a whole new world for me because I can express and engage with people like you that I would otherwise not be able to do if it wasn't for some of the technology.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_02: But to your point, everyone can be a creator on their own terms, and this has facilitated it.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's a really exciting time for the artists and the creators, and I can see that for you, you are ever evolving and changing, whether it's photography, you've just tell me a little bit about also you've got this New York Times bestseller book.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's pretty exciting.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I just want to hear a little bit about that.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, I love the name, I'm just saying.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think thank you.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that the book's called The Models of Influence, and it essentially tracks um, you know, the history of the most extraordinary models in the industry from the sort of 1940s, 1950s onwards.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it's my definition of what I I believe a true supermodel to be, and it's really how certain women in the industry changed the the I mean how people saw fashion, people, how people saw beauty and changed the business behind it.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: So they actually revolutionized the business of modeling.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, people, for an example, like uh Cindy Crawford and a uh L McPherson, who both as business women Not just as supermodels, but as business women, struck deals for the very first time that people had never seen in the industry.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: Someone like Elle, for example, who decided to not just model other people's swimsuits, but say, actually, why don't I do my own deal, create my own swimsuits, and model my own clothing?
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, everyone these days that's a sort of an obvious one, but back then she was the very first person to ever do that and create a multi-million dollar business out of it.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because she was saying, Well, why would I just get paid$10,000 to do a campaign and walk away and they make all the money?
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: If I can make someone millions of dollars by wearing their clothes, why would I not just do that for myself?
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and someone like Cindy Crawford who you know changed the deals with Revlon and wanted to have a better, bigger say and a larger paycheck, more relevant to what she was, the money she was making the business, not just you know, get paid one time and walk away.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, and she had to put a foot down in order to get those deals and say, I'm not gonna do it otherwise.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, but that changed the industry, that changed the business, that changed the way contracts were then drawn up.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: It was because they made a stand.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and also someone like you know, for example, Twiggy, who's also a friend of mine and someone worked on top model with me, and who, you know, in large part because of you know the way she looked at that very moment in time, but you have to realize Twiggy came in in the 60s, and in the 50s there was a very austere post-war um sort of look that women were adhering to, which was this sort of you know, cookie-cutter idea of perfection with uh, you know, um hourglass figures and um you know uh certain sort of hairstyles, and it was all about you know looking perfect after the war, where women had you know not had so as many luxuries because you know, and and so they were trying to fit into this idea of perfection.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: And there came Twiggy in the 60s, who was like, to hell with you know looking like how someone else wants me to look like as far as the definition of a woman.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna have short hair, I'm gonna be boyish, I'm gonna you know be androgynous, and and I don't need to look like what you think a woman needs to look like.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: I want to look like what I want to be, and I want to be a rebel.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and and and then as simple as it sounds, you know, it was groundbreaking at the time.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: It was like, oh my goodness, you cut you got short hair.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, what?
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: That was groundbreaking?
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, for all of you who don't realize, there was a time when women cutting their hair short was outrageous.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, woman wearing a short skirt was outrageous.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like Jen Shrimpton in, you know, with the mini skirt and you know, mini dress, and uh, yeah, and and that in itself is interesting too, just the changing nature of uh what people can and will wear.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, you look from the Victorian era through to what people can wear now.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so your book's very topical and it's done really well.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's a response.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's probably also because you've researched extensively and you understand your industry and have made sure that the detail is going to be to appeal and to allow people to access some of this material, which you know it's on, I mean it's around, but you've made it the way you've put it together is quite special and a credit to you.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I'd like to thank you so much for joining me on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's been an absolute treat.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: I've I've loved chatting to you, and I hope we're gonna see you down under soon in the Aussie Sunshine, although I don't know um when you're planning your next visit.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: But certainly it's been wonderful to hear all of the perspectives that you've given on the fashion industry, and I look forward to continuing to follow you and to see what you do next.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a real pleasure.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't wait to visit Australia again.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, as I mentioned at the top of the show, I'm a big fan and um and I I love it over there.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's a bit a fantastic country, the people are great, and uh, you know, I love the sort of relaxed sort of atmosphere of Australia and of the Aussies, and I've got a lot of Aussies friends over here in the US as well.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, look, uh hopefully I'll be over there as soon as I as soon as we, you know, travel restrictions are are are eased.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to bring my my kids over there and visit and and hang out with my family over there too.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we look forward to seeing you and definitely will when you get here.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_02: It might be a while, but um, hopefully not too not in the too too distant future.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_02: So you have a great day and thank you so much for your time.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: All the best.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: Take care.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_02: Take care.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for listening.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_02: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_02: Love too.