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MBA Wire Taps 333—710 GMAT, is it enough? ORM, does it matter? Is Harvard always best? · Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast

• 0:15
  Speaker A: Welcome to the clear Admit MBA Admissions podcast. I'm Graham Richmond and this is your wiretaps for Monday, January 15, 2024. I'm joined by Alex Brown from Cornwall, England. Alex, how are things going this week?
• 0:28
  Speaker B: Very good, thank you, Graham.
• 0:29
  Speaker A: I have to ask, has it been cold there in England? Because it's been very cold in.
• 0:36
  Speaker B: Yes, yes.
• 0:37
  Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, well, so I hope you're by the fire and have a cup of tea or something.
• 0:41
  Speaker B: Yeah, my fuel bill's gone up.
• 0:44
  Speaker A: Yes. What's on tap this week in the world of MBA admissions? Are there any deadlines left? I feel like we had talked about some straggler schools that always camp out in like the second or third week of January here.
• 0:56
  Speaker B: Yeah. What's the classic straggler school?
• 1:00
  Speaker A: Mit. Sloan, maybe stern as well.
• 1:02
  Speaker B: Yep, Sloan and Stern. And Insiad also has an application deadline. Insiad's is round, I think.
• 1:09
  Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. So anything else going? When, if I applied to some of these schools in the first week of January, when can I start to get interview invitations? If it's a school that does interviews by invite only?
• 1:23
  Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it depends which of the schools, right? Because Yale is notorious for releasing some decisions early before they clearly then do a deep dive reviewing the applications and then release more decisions later. And Yale is not the only one that takes that process. I think Tepper is another school that sort of has a similar type of process. Tuck. See quite a few invitations coming out for Tuck, typically early. So there will be some schools that trickle out quite early, but then you'll have schools like Harvard, Wharton and Booth, and various other schools that will have a certain deadline where they'll release all those round two decisions. And we're a little ways off for that yet. And Harvard will be the first of those to do that, I would imagine.
• 2:19
  Speaker A: Yeah, I feel like it's usually late Jan, early Feb, so there's still some time there, but in any event, we'll see. I know that people have really probably worked very hard if you were applying in round two over the last couple of weeks and you still have maybe a couple of schools to go here this week, but the next step is really interviewing. And so keeping an eye on what you're going to need to do to prepare for that is smart. Before we get into kind of some of the stuff that's been going on on the website, I did want to mention we have an event later this month. It's a real humans event where we're going to gather some current MBA students and have a kind of ask me anything. It's January 24 from 08:00 p.m. To 09:00 p.m.. Eastern. You can sign up by going to bit Lee, CA realhumans at last check. Students are joining us from NYU, Stern, Dartmouth, Tuck, UW, Foster, and then Georgetown McDonough. That list may change as we get closer. I know Vic and Mike on our team are always trying to get even more students to join, so we'll see how that shapes out ultimately. But stay tuned for that and sign up. Those are always really fun and just give you a chance to talk to folks who are literally on the front lines in these programs. Other than that, Alex, I thought you would find this interesting. We ran a story on the website about Berkeley Haas and how the school of business, and I think it's called the Rouser College of Natural Resources. Also at Berkeley, they've introduced this joint degree. It's a new MBA master of climate solutions, and it's a dual degree program that is aimed at preparing, quote, the next generation of leaders in sustainability and climate action, end quote. The first class is going to be able to join in the fall of 24. So it's like available now to apply to. It's a two and a half year long degree. So you get two master's degrees in two and a half years instead of what ordinarily would probably be like a three plus year process. And there's a capstone. There's some interesting kind of features within this dual degree program that get you out working and kind of on the front lines with sustainability issues. So, Alex, what do you think of this?
• 4:25
  Speaker B: Fantastic. We need more programs like, and I didn't realize that there's a Capstone project associated with it, too. So hopefully those capstones are really focused on real good innovation in the climate space.
• 4:39
  Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's exactly what it sounded like when I was reading about it. So read more on our site if you're interested in that. We did run a couple of admissions tips, again, trying to be timely. One of them was about data forms, which are the online application components. Like everyone focuses on essays and recommendations and that sort of stuff, or getting their transcripts in, but you also have to fill out all these forms, like where you list out your work experience and your salary and your titles and all the extracurricular activities you've pursued and just lots of ods and ends, and it takes a while. And so we have a tip there. There's also a video in our admissions Academy series, which is free to watch for anyone that's registered on clearadmit.com, which is also free to do so. Yeah, check out that. I know. Obviously now we're getting down to the wire with just a couple more schools left, with top schools left with big deadlines. But never hurts to read through this art. We have a lot of good advice on how to tackle the data forms. And then we also ran an admissions tip on resume versus application based interviews, which I think is going to be of great interest to people who are now heading into the interview phase. So we went over the sort of differences and once again, we have a video too, where we kind of explain what does it mean to have a resume based interview versus an application based interview for business school. So, Alex, I actually went and watched a little bit of that video and took me back to. We had a good time in London when we made those videos.
• 6:01
  Speaker B: Yeah, no, fantastic. And yeah, I really encourage folks to watch that video series as they're prepping their applications and so forth because there's just a lot of good nuggets of insight, I think.
• 6:17
  Speaker A: Yeah, the next thing I wanted to mention is we ran two real humans pieces on the website. We caught up with five students from MIT. Sloan and I just wanted to share a little nugget. So one of the students is a guy named Jake. He used to work at NBC Universal. He was coordinator of drama development. So he know kind of doing some interesting work in the media and entertainment space before business school. And we asked him, why did you choose MIT Sloan? And he said, having studied film and computer science in undergrad, I've long believed that technology is fundamentally reshaping the ways we create and consume media and that the impacts will only continue to grow to be more seismic. There's no better place to learn how to think about new technology than the MIT campus. Already I've been able to talk to a number of the world's leading researchers about how generative AI impacts labor forces. And I've been able to ask them how I might look at similar questions in entertainment. So Jake is at MIT. Sloan seems like he picked the right place, given this interest in that intersection of tech and media and.
• 7:20
  Speaker B: Yeah, no, very, very good. I was just reading this morning about how the animation industry is being challenged by generative AI. The creative industries are really under a lot of pressure right now.
• 7:36
  Speaker A: Yeah, agreed. We keep reading these articles about how actors are going to basically sell their likeness to be able to make movies that they don't even have to really act in, or everything will just be sort of automated. It's going to be very strange. I don't know. We'll see how it evolves.
• 7:52
  Speaker B: I think that kind of stuff works out well for those at the very, very top of the food chain.
• 7:57
  Speaker A: Right? Exactly.
• 7:57
  Speaker B: I think it's the regular actor and there are many of them that really struggle to make ends meet. They're the ones that are in most jeopardy.
• 8:07
  Speaker A: Yeah, fair. Yeah, I think you're right. The other school that we did a real humans for this past week is Siebes in China. And again, we caught up with five students there. For those of you who don't know, it's an 18 month long MBA program. There are 121 students in the class. So it's a small short duration, or I guess you could say medium duration because it's not as short as INSEAD program in China. We caught up with one of the students, this woman named Martina, who actually worked in Switzerland and where she's from, I guess maybe she worked in Asia as well. It looks like from her background, but her family runs a business in Switzerland that's in kind of a logistics know. Again, kind of. We asked why Siebes and she said Siebes is the best MBA in Asia and I would like to continue my working career in China. So choosing Siebes and its location in Shanghai was the best decision for my MBA. And I think if you read the interview with her, you'll see she talks a lot, know her family. I think it's kind of logistics and maybe import and things like that. And so having a foothold into China for her probably makes sense. But it's just interesting. I was know we talked to like five different students there and I don't know as much about that MBA program. I do know know leading MBA program in China, but it was just kind of cool to sort of learn more there.
• 9:23
  Speaker B: Yeah, there was a point in my career, I nearly went over there for a year.
• 9:27
  Speaker A: Oh, really? To work at seeds? Yeah. Interesting.
• 9:30
  Speaker B: Well, I chatted with their admissions guy and they were trying to get me to come over.
• 9:34
  Speaker A: Oh, wow.
• 9:35
  Speaker B: But that was when they first started. So this program is quite new. I remember when it first started.
• 9:40
  Speaker A: Yeah, me too.
• 9:42
  Speaker B: What, 1520 years ago? Yeah, very good. Obviously, if your career is Asia based or China based, Siebes has got to be at the top of the list.
• 9:51
  Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. So interesting there. If you're looking at either MIT or Siebes, check out those real humans profiles. The last thing I wanted to share with you, Alex, before we talk about our candidates this week relates to the Chicago booth employment report that was recently published. And so I'll give you the numbers as we always do, and I'd be curious to get your take. There were 628 students in the class that graduated in 23 here, and 84% of them were looking for work. It turns out that 9% were sponsored and then another 4%, it says either started their own companies or pursued entrepreneurial roles, which I take to mean they maybe joined an enterprise that's a startup, but maybe without a salary or it was kind of unclear. But anyway, so 84% of the class are looking for a job within three months of graduation. 96% had an offer last year. That number was 97. So very similar. And then it turns out this was kind of a fun fact. 55% of the people who got jobs were offered those jobs via the summer internship they had done the summer prior. So summer internship is a big gateway to those full time jobs. The starting salary median was $180,000. That's up 5000 from last year. So big number there. In terms of the industry breakdown, 38.6% of the graduating class went into consulting. That's up from 35. And I guess it was, what, 35.5% last year? 32.6% went into financial services. That's down slightly from 35% last year. Tech is 15.5%. That's actually up a tick. It was 14.9 last year. Healthcare, 2.8%. That's down a little bit. It was 4% last year. And then consumer packaged goods was the fifth largest kind of industry that folks entered, and that was 2.2% unchanged from last year. 71 students, by the way, went to McKinsey. So Booth is great in that they share some of the granular kind of details about placements. I think that's up like 10% from last year. So a lot of people go into MBB when it comes to consulting. And then, Alex, I'll give you the kind of regional numbers here. And then I'm just curious to get your thoughts on all this. So, 29.8%. So let's call it 30%, landed in the midwest, that's virtually unchanged from last year. 27% headed to the east coast, that's down a couple of percentage points. 22% West coast, that's actually up a couple percentage points. And then 6% to the southwest, 4% to the mid Atlantic, about 4% to the south, and 7% overseas. And really all those numbers are kind of unchanged. So, Alex, any thoughts on Chicago Booth's placement report for the class of 23?
• 12:41
  Speaker B: No, I mean, overall, I think it's a good report for Booth. Their average median starting salary looks about at par with other top m seven programs, although you said it went up 5%. I mean, inflation adjusted, it's probably not that big an increase, but 180 is still a very, very good number. And just that slight increase to the west coast and a slight uptick in tech recruiting. The trend with their peer schools in that. Yeah, that's quite interesting, actually.
• 13:22
  Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I think MIt was the only other school that I feel like we know also kind of doing fairly well in that domain. But yeah, it's very fascinating and I think they should be really proud of these numbers. I mean, that's pretty impressive. I lied when I said we could get right into the candidates. I totally forgot. We got the most amazing email from a listener that I just wanted to share. So this listener, I guess, heard us talking last week about how we didn't get any reviews or letters or kind of fan mail over the holidays and how we felt a little down about that. So she writes, hi Alex and Graham. I went awe when you said getting no emails or reviews over the holidays was like coal in your stockings. Ha ha. I'm definitely listening 10 hours a week at minimum while I work, walk my dog, do my dishes. I even go back and listen to old episodes and still pick up new things every time I listen. I credit this podcast as one of the final kicks to get me to fully commit to applying for an MBA, which is no small feat, since at the beginning of 21, I had a hard no stance to the MBA, and I fully believed both the process and the value of an MBA were not worth it. This podcast helped convince me that the opposite of both could be true for me. Another big mental hurdle for me was taking the GRE and my GPA. And so she goes on to talk about how she'd like to get a profile review. So I asked her to post over to apply wire and stuff, and she was saying she hopes if she does get a profile review, that she gets a. This could potentially be a strong profile or an Otherwise. There's a lot to like here from you, Alex. She's definitely listening. She knows all your catchphrases.
• 15:05
  Speaker B: Yeah, no, I like this. It sort of reminds me, why did she start listening? Was it because she wanted to convince herself that she was correct in her assertion that the NBA was a hard no? Why not listen to a podcast about the NBA and have that reaffirmed? It's kind of like me. I listen now to Tucker on X whenever he produces a new episode. Oh, wow. But I swear to God, I'm never going to get converted to his ideology.
• 15:34
  Speaker A: Right. That's good. I guess, you know, the whole spectrum, because I do think actually there's a tendency for people to only listen to stuff that kind of, they agree with. Right. There's that tendency in the bubble kind of thing. I really appreciate that note that we received, so I wanted to thank her for sending that along. The last podcast thing I wanted to mention is that I was fortunate enough to sit down with Dr. Mike Christian, who's a leadership professor at UNC, Keenan Flagler. He's actually, I guess, technically the chair for their organizational behavior department. So really great guy. I think he was on the PNQ's best professors, top 40, under 40 or whatever. So an amazing guy. And we talked all about leadership, and to some extent, we talked about how you present your leadership capacities and work on your leadership profile for applying to business school. But even more broadly, we talked about some really big picture things like, can you teach leadership, or is it just innate and just lots of really good tidbits. So you should see that episode in the feed here where you're listening to this one. But in case you missed it, that came out, I guess about a week ago. So I wanted to mention that, too. As always, people can write to us. We love your notes. So write to info@clearadmit.com use the subject line wiretaps. Alex, I know you picked out some candidates to talk about this week, so should we move into that portion of the show?
• 16:58
  Speaker B: I just want the answer because I've not listened to the podcast. Graham, is it innate or can it be taught?
• 17:03
  Speaker A: Well, given that Professor Christian is know teaching organizational behavior and leadership, he does think that there are a bunch of things that you can learn. Some people have some innate skill, but he thinks it's actually more taught than more learnable than it is innate.
• 17:21
  Speaker B: Excellent.
• 17:22
  Speaker A: Yeah. But tune in because he had a lot of better things to say, a lot of additional things to say, and he probably said them a lot more eloquently than I. All right, so should we get rolling here with the candidates?
• 17:34
  Speaker B: Let's kick on.
• 17:35
  Speaker A: All right, so this is wiretaps candidate number one. Our first candidate this week is applying to five schools and actually dropped their applications, I believe, just this past round, too. So they've got Harvard, London Business School, MIT, Sloan, Kellogg, and Chicago. Booth. Those are the schools they're targeting. They have been working, consulting. I'm pretty sure it's an accenture they mentioned and they're going to be staying in that industry, but looking to go maybe work at Bain, BCG or McKinsey after business school. Their GMAT score is a 710. Their GPA is a 3.65. They've had seven years of work experience to date. They mentioned they are located in Southeast Asia but not Singapore. We'll talk more about why they specified that in a moment. They would love to land in either the US or potentially the UK after business school. And they mentioned that that three, six, five GPA from undergrad was in international relations and it was at a top 40 us college. So despite living in Southeast Asia, and I believe being from that region, they did go to the US for undergrad. And they mentioned that they were originally going to do kind of an IR related career. So international relations, but they had a last minute change and ended up at Accenture. And they've been there, I guess, for more than five years now. And they are a manager, so they've really moved up in the ranks there. And they mentioned that they don't think that their GMAT is very strong, but they've had a lot of really good work experience with accenture. There was no official strategy practice in the country that they're working for accenture in, and they. They kind of helped build that out. They've got some good extracurricular activities, most of which involve the education domain, helping mostly around teaching people business education at the high school level. And again, they want to join a top strategy consultancy after business school, and then they want to return home to somewhere in Southeast Asia and join a strategy or business development function in a leading company in that market. So, Alex, what do you make of this candidacy? Because there's a lot of interesting stuff going on in terms of where they've worked and their undergrad in the US and stuff. But the numbers don't jump off the page when it comes to the test score.
• 19:56
  Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think that's clearly the weakest area of the profile. And in the grand scheme of things, it's a very good GMAT score. Just relative to the medians of the top schools that they're targeting. It's below that median. It will be within range. Right. So there'll be plenty of folks that get admitted to the schools that they're targeting with a lower GMAT. So it's not a disastrous score by any means. But if this candidate had this exact same profile with a 737 40 GMAT. Yeah, I'd be like, they should be targeting m seven and they target five of the m seven, which is effectively what they've done. Four of the m seven plus London business school.
• 20:42
  Speaker A: Right.
• 20:43
  Speaker B: They're going to get a couple of options, at least, but the 710 does make me a bit queasy. So I really like their professional experience in as much as they're working in a country that didn't have a particular office for strategy consulting. That is their sort of interest and focus, but they've helped set that up, or at least that's my understanding. And they've sort of helped not necessarily pioneer that in their region, but I mean really push it out there a little bit, which seems to be very good. And I also really like their extracurriculars. It looks like they've really been focused on helping innovate business curriculum at the school level, at the high school level and so on and so forth, working with ngos on business education, et cetera. So I have to say there's a lot to like about this profile grant. I mean, their GPA, I think, is pretty fine. Right. 3.65 from a top 40 us college. As an international student, I'd think that's quite good in the US, but I'd still struggle back to the GMAT. Is it the kiss of death? I don't think so, but it definitely sort of brings things back just a little bit.
• 22:05
  Speaker A: Yeah. Here's what I think is going to happen with this candidate. So they've applied to a very top list of schools. Like you said, it's really m seven type schools and yet their test score is a bit lower. We don't know what market they're from. They said not Singapore, but it could be Thailand, Indonesia. I mean, Malaysia. There are a lot of potential markets they could be coming from, but I think in most cases they could be viewed as overrepresented. If I were a top school, I might end up waitlisting this person and seeing if they make a move on the test to boost their score so they could end up in that bucket. I do think it is risky, given these numbers, to have put all their eggs in these sort of top school kind of basket. If I were advising them earlier on, I would have said cast a slightly wider net, because obviously, if it was earlier on, I would have said retake the test too. But in any event, we'll see. I mean, it is impressive what they've done. It sounds like Accenture was probably mostly doing it related projects and that kind of stuff that they normally do.
• 23:09
  Speaker B: That's what they're known for. Right. You think someone working at Accenture. It's more on the ops side and the it side, and they're very good at it. Right. So not to dismiss that, but, yeah, they're a strategy consultant within Accenture.
• 23:24
  Speaker A: Yeah. And they've helped build that out. There is a lot to like here. I would say the careers stuff is great. The plan they have for their career, their experience, their outside activities, and even their undergraduate GPA. Top 40 us school three, six, five. So maybe we're being a little too harsh. Maybe some of these top schools will look past what's a below average GMAT score for them. But I don't know. We'll have to see how it shakes out. I mean, I do want to wish them the best of luck, and I think that if it doesn't work out and they end up on a know, obviously first step would be prep hard and take the test again, and maybe that'll move the meter, but we shall see. Anything else?
• 24:03
  Speaker B: What about prepping and taking the test at the end of January in case I get an interview invite and then.
• 24:08
  Speaker A: Letting the school know? Yeah, it wouldn't be the worst thing to do. I don't know this person's comfort level with the tests and stuff, but if they were sort of like, yeah, I took it. I wasn't really happy with the result. I know I could do better. And they're not like, test nervous or something. They could go out and take it again quickly and get a better score rather than wait to be told, like, oh, we're going to put you on the waitlist or something, and the stupid.
• 24:31
  Speaker B: Thing is a bump of ten or 20 points is going to make a difference.
• 24:35
  Speaker A: Yeah, it is silly, I know. And I remember feeling I've been on both sides of this equation, both in the admissions office and as a candidate. So I know it's kind of this silly hurdle that you have to get past. But in any event, we'll see where they land. Hopefully they'll keep us posted. But, yeah, I think as long as they know this might be coming in terms of having to take the test again one way or the other, that'll help them. All right, shall we move on and talk about wiretaps, candidate number two?
• 25:04
  Speaker B: Let's move on.
• 25:05
  Speaker A: Yeah. All right, so this is wiretaps. Candidate number two. We've got a candidate who is targeting next fall, and they have ten schools on the target list, and those schools are Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Duke, Harvard, MIT, Kellogg, Chicago, Wharton, and Yale. So a lot of schools this person has been working in tech and entrepreneurship before. Business school. They would love to either stay in tech or maybe get into VC or continue that entrepreneurial route after business school. Their GMAT score is a 720 and they have a GPA of 3.22. They've got five years of work experience. They are located in Atlanta and they mentioned they actually had some very specific questions for us. They said that they've heard a lot about overrepresented candidates and they want to understand how it works. So, for example, are overrepresented candidates categorized based on race or citizenship? And they specifically say, are Chinese Americans, Korean Americans or Indian Americans categorized as overrepresented? And then they also wanted to know, how much does the undergraduate GPA matter? They said that they transferred after one year at a community college where their GPA was 38, but that their ultimate undergrad GPA was a 3.22. They did go to a decent engineering school where they had like a double major. They did dual engineering degrees, basically, but they're wondering if 3.22 is kind of a deal breaker. So, Alex, I'll let you weigh in. What do you make of this candidacy? Some very good questions, by the way, from the admission strategy side here.
• 26:41
  Speaker B: Yeah, I'm not sure. You said they're applying next season. Do we know that?
• 26:46
  Speaker A: No, I think they're applying well, I wonder, actually, because it said intake year 24, so I assume they're applying now. No.
• 26:53
  Speaker B: Yeah. Sorry, I thought you said next season. No, season.
• 26:56
  Speaker A: Yeah, this season.
• 26:56
  Speaker B: I got you. Yeah. Very good. Yeah. I mean, obviously the three two two GPA is significantly below the median for the schools that they're targeting. And that's going to be challenging, even though they did it, a dual degree and a double major in engineering, which is going to be quite challenging. One would assume. They've got to get over that. Now, I think they're first generation immigrant.
• 27:29
  Speaker A: Right.
• 27:30
  Speaker B: Sounds like they went to a community college for a year and then transferred in. So that sort of first generation immigrant story may certainly have impacted their sort of academic performance if they just arrived in the US just before their undergrad and so forth. So there might be something to address there in the optional essay in that regard. The 720 GMAT, again, it's a very decent GMAT, but it's not going to be a standout GMAT, and it's certainly below the median of a few of the schools that they're targeting. They're targeting basically the m seven and the next tier behind that. So they're being quite ambitious in those targets. Their big question is, are they an overrepresented majority or minority, whatever you want to call it. And what is the impact of that? And they could well be. And the impact is basically how do they differentiate themselves a little bit further from others that might be similar to them applying to these top programs. That's always the case, no matter what overrepresentation you are, whether it's race or citizenship or whatever it might be, as they asked. But I'm assuming that they're a us citizen. I don't know that we know that, but I'm assuming they are. So that, I think gives them a little bit of a leg up versus a national from the country from where they originated. They have that us experience, which I think is a feather in their cap. So I think that can be helpful to them. So then the next piece is sort of their professional experience, how that's helped them stand out, as well as their extracurricular sort of life experiences and so forth. And how does that help them stand out? And I quite like some of the stuff that they've done, their entrepreneurship, looking like they've got some interest in the food industry. If they can tie all that together and show their growth and their impact and how that then ties well to their post MBA goals, I do think that they can differentiate themselves. Graham. And that's the key. Right. How did they differentiate themselves? And that still comes back, though, to this one issue, that three two two GPA is going to be probably, I think, the weakest element of this overall profile. How harmful, I don't know, but that's going to be the weakest element, much like our prior candidate's weakest element was the 710 on the GMAP.
• 30:34
  Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, this is a really interesting case in that imagine for a moment an essay, and maybe it's an optional essay, or maybe it's a regular essay because it depends on the question the school's asking. But imagine an essay about how this person arrived in the US. Maybe they were still in grammar school or middle school or something, who knows, right? And had to learn a new language and then found their way to community college, found their way from there to a well known, from what they say, engineering school, where they did a dual degree in engineering. And three two two, as you say, below average. But some hurdles there along the way that they would have had to have overcome to kind of integrate and get up to speed with the language, et cetera. So I could see a compelling story. What's interesting is their career since they've worked in tech as a software engineer, but they've also on the side, co founded an early stage tech startup, as you said, in the food industry. So they're doing a lot and this sounds like a motivated individual. But then we come back to, well, is this viewed the know they mentioned, we don't know where they're from, but they mentioned China, Korea and India as potential markets that this person has come. Yeah. So it gets into this sort of, I don't know what the word is, nitpickiness of like, well, what does define an underrepresented or a bootstrapper and all these things. And so yeah, I would just encourage them to obviously keep this stuff to the fore when it comes to the hurdles that they've overcome. And it sounds like they've done quite well in the end. But I do agree with you, they've got a pretty high end list of schools and the academic piece isn't jumping off the page. And I don't know enough about the work experience. It sounds promising, but I don't know if it's like they've had five jobs in five years or if it's like, no, they've been at the same tech company for five years and they've simultaneously founded their startup and that would be a little more consistent and easier to understand. So yeah, it's an interesting case though. I don't really know where this person is going to land. They don't have a safety here on the list.
• 32:44
  Speaker B: Yeah, they don't. But I'll also just add, they were super busy in undergrad. So whether it's working on entrepreneurial stuff as well as a lot of ECS supporting diversity and inclusion and so forth, which I would assume is a legacy of their own background. Right. So that tends to happen. You work on issues and causes that are directly related to you and your life experience. So that's good. But it also begs the question of sort of overall sort of time management and so forth. If you were so super busy in college that compromised your GPA, then ADcoM might wonder what were your priorities in terms of academic priorities and so forth. So they've got to make sure that they address all of that in a fashion that basically says, you know what, when I come to your MBA program, I'm going to be super involved because I got a history of doing that at college, but also I'm also going to be really successful in the academic sphere.
• 33:52
  Speaker A: Yeah, agreed. Well, I want to wish them the best of luck. Hopefully they'll keep us posted and hopefully we've managed to answer their questions. Undergraduate GPA does matter, to answer their question very directly. And a three two two is a little bit low, but typically you can address it with a really high test score or other things, as we often say on the show. So in any event, hope they keep us posted. Let's move on, though, and talk.
• 34:16
  Speaker B: I'll ask you a question, Graham. What do you prefer, a three six and a 700 gmat or 750 gmat and a 30?
• 34:27
  Speaker A: Oh, man. I think the three six because at least from my conversations with admissions officers, those four years of earning a GPA tend to be weighted a bit more heavily than a one time taking of a test. I'd like both, though. Ideally, yes. All right. Let's move on, though, and talk about wiretaps. Candidate number three. So our final candidate this week comes from a decision wire entry that you selected Alex. And this person, as all the ones we've been discussing these past few weeks, doesn't know where to go. So I'll tell you. They applied to Chicago, Booth, Harvard, Michigan, Kellogg, Wharton, and Darden. And it looks like they ran the table with the exception of Wharton. So I don't know. Wharton didn't admit them, so they got into Booth with no money. They got into Harvard with $40,000 of need based scholarship. They got into Michigan with $150,000 scholarship. Kellogg admitted them with $100,000 and then Darden with 120,000. This person's starting this coming fall. They want to work in consulting or potentially consumer goods. They've got Bain, BCG, and McKinsey on the list for that consulting short term goal. They had a 740 on the GMAT and a 37. So there you go. Those are the numbers that we want. That when you're asking before they're located in Minnesota. And they said they're looking to pivot into management consulting immediately post MBA, and then move into strategy at a retail or food kind of CPG company in the long term. And they are kind of struggling here. And they did mention that for them, it's come down to be kind of between HBS with the 40 grand, Kellogg with 100, or Ross with 150. And they specifically say that they think consulting recruiting is more about the person than the school or that they've heard that and that they wouldn't necessarily mind tier two. So they're saying, I think they mean tier two consulting firms like non MBB. And they say, so it's hard not to consider the full ride at Ross. So that's kind of where they are. They're a little nervous about HBS. They also talked about how they're a bit shy and they're not sure the case method is the right thing for. So they're between those schools. But what would you do if you were this candidate?
• 36:43
  Speaker B: Alex, I think this is super interesting, right? So I'm going to ask you, Graham, Harvard, Kellogg or Ross? So let's just eliminate all the others just for the sakes of this conversation. Which of the three programs on aggregate will give you most access to? Most.
• 37:03
  Speaker A: I mean, I think, you know, barring any recent scandals, I would have.
• 37:11
  Speaker B: Mean, that's just the way it is. You can qualify it all you like because we love Kellogg, we love Ross, but Harvard would provide most opportunity, Kellogg second most opportunity, and Ross third most opportunity just because of their relationships with recruiters and alumni out there in the marketplace. And we see it from career reports year in, year out. I mean, there are reasons why there are tiers to the system and we're big advocates of that. Now, I'm a huge, huge fan of Kellogg. I'm a huge fan of Ross. But the reality is if you want to go to a program to maximize your opportunities, I'm not saying guaranteed mean, but to maximize your opportunities for access to thing, then you have to go to Harvard. Right. But the question then becomes, okay, there is some financial implications in this decision making. Kellogg's offering a good award of 100K versus I think Harvard's forty K and Ross is a freebie, right. That to some extent sort of mitigates the more limited access to opportunity. And maybe, I would say maybe makes Kellogg a real viable debate versus Harvard. But you can't get away from the reality that Harvard will provide you most access. I think that's unequivocal. But at the end of the day, it sort of gets to something that I wrote about in the admissions book. And I'm not saying this necessarily relates to this particular candidate, but for some candidates for sure is my assumptions are always that if you're getting into these top tier MBA programs, Harvard, Ross, Kellogg, they're all sort of top tier in a broader sense, then your ambition is to sort of go on and rule the world and really have real significant impact and so forth, and therefore you should go after the best program that can able you to do that. But as this candidate points out, they'd be quite happy with a tier two consulting pathway after MBA and they want to obviously move into consumer packaged goods. And I would assume that both Kellogg and Ross can provide a pretty decent pathway, obviously both consulting, both because they're both very good for consulting, but into consumer packaged goods, too, because of their location, if nothing else. So maybe there is a case for some candidates to say, you know what, money matters more, I. E. The cost of it, than access to the most lofty, ambitious sort of types of goals. So if that is the case and that's the case for this person, you can make a good case for Kellogg less so, I think Ross versus Harvard, but certainly for Kellogg. And yeah, that might be it. But I wouldn't not go to Harvard because you're concerned about the case method. I'd go to Harvard. If you are shy simply because of the case method, because it would really challenge you. Right. And really allow you really, I think, potentially perform very well. And there's no doubt this person is wicked smart. Right. You don't get a 740 GMAT and a 307 GPA if you're not someone that can really thrive in a case study environment. I think the answer should be clear. But as I've just suggested, maybe it's not so clear. Maybe Kellogg could be a good mean.
• 41:13
  Speaker A: So two things. If I'm going to play devil's advocate, I would say, obviously Kellogg's going to offer really good access to MBB placements.
• 41:21
  Speaker B: Second, we've got to be quick, too. We've gone know.
• 41:23
  Speaker A: I know. And the second thing I was going to say is, know the case method is obviously used very extensively at HBS. It's their primary method of instruction. But Kellogg is also a huge case method school. They're probably right up there with HBS and Darden, if I'm thinking of the three schools that use the case method most. So this person is going to get that opportunity either way. I do think that the Harvard versus Kellogg debate is a legitimate debate in this instance, but given what the candidate has told us. But it's not easy. And as you say, this person's obviously smart and people going to these top schools are ambitious. It is a tough call. I do think, though, one thing that we can say is that it probably is between those two schools. For me, given the amount of money that Kellogg's offering them, I just don't see so in any. Yeah, so they need to noodle on this some more, based on what we've said, but, yeah, great one. Alex, I appreciate you picking this out because it's a really interesting debate and as you point out, we've gone way overtime this week. Hopefully enough nuggets of good admissions advice that kept people tuned in. But, Alex, let's connect again in one week's time and do this all again, if you're willing.
• 42:36
  Speaker B: Very good. Stay safe, everyone. Take care.