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Lift the lid on corruption! · Save Democracy

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Any kind of abuse of a public office, any kind of abuse of a public thing
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that you're supposed to manage for the public, but for your own purposes
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and not for the purposes of which you are given it or given access to it.
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So it's the abuse of power, state power for personal ends.
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Now, the traditional analysis of corruption has three
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kinds, it's three levels.
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So you have small and petty corruption, and you have grand
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corruption, and then you have what's called systemic corruption.
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So small and petty corruption is just lots of little bribes,
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things that happen every day.
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For example, a traffic policeman pulling over cars and extracting little
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fines, imaginary fines from them.
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You mean the driver's done nothing wrong and there's no legitimate
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reason why they're stopped?
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Exactly.
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They're just stopping the car just to get the money.
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So they'll stop the car and they'll pretend that they've done something
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and they haven't really, or they, well, sometimes they don't even bother.
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Just everybody knows.
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In some countries, everybody knows exactly what they're doing, and it's just
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your bad luck that day that you bumped into them and they'll let you go if you
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just give them a little bit of money.
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So that's very small petty corruption.
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And you might get it if you walked into a hospital in some countries
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and the nurse or the doctor won't treat you unless you give them a
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little gift or a little bit of money.
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Happens in schools.
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Teachers probably won't pass your kids or give them lessons unless
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you give them little rewards.
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So that's small and petty corruption.
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And then you have grand corruption, which is at the other end, and that'll
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be some kind of minister, for example, granting a licence to a major company
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to, you know, exploit some oil reserve.
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Or it might be a grant of a major project to build a road somewhere to a relative.
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So that's grand corruption.
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And you have systemic corruption and that, well, it doesn't really matter too
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much whether the corruption is small and petty, or whether it's grand and big.
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It's systemic because it happens all the time.
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It's pervasive.
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It happens at all levels all the time.
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And then you might see, you might reach a point to where you have what's called
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kleptocratic corruption, and that's when the state, it's so pervasive that the
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whole state is built around corruption.
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So you basically, it's a kleptocracy.
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The people that run the state are running it for themselves.
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So they're people that have access to every level of the state and
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they'll all expect that nothing will happen in that state unless
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they get a piece of the action.
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In some South Pacific countries like Papua New Guinea, you
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might have wontok corruption.
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They don't consider it corruption, but with wontok, if you belong to the same
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tribal group, the same language group, it's expected that you'll look after
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your third cousin twice removed, who just happens to come from the same tribal area.
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You'll give him improved access to a job.
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I wonder if we could just reflect a moment on petty corruption, what that must be
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like when petty corruption's pervasive.
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When it's routine to have to make special payments under the table for
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your sick child to be treated at the hospital or to be taught at school.
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I was going to ask you about how corruption corrodes democracy, but
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that just really brought me there, how insidious and demoralising that must be.
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Well, petty corruption is not a problem really, if it happens rarely.
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It'll happen anywhere in the world.
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You might get some corrupt police officer in the United States and in
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the southern states, or it might happen in Australia where they try that on.
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But if it does happen, you've got avenues of redress.
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You can take steps about it, you can make a complaint and you can follow it up.
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You can, people have got dash cams and they can record
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things, but it still happens.
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It just doesn't happen very often.
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And when it does happen, there's usually redress places like, well, I won't, where
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it happens in other countries, there is no redress, there is no complaint mechanism,
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there's no way of doing anything about it.
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And at the same time, a lot of these traffic cops are paid, for
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example, are paid very, very poorly.
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This is how they live often, their salaries are so low they have to do it.
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The same with nurses and doc, even doctors in some places, they, they have to, this
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is the only way they can make ends meet.
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And in the wontok system, it's kind of like in, well, in Papua
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New Guinea for example, it's a substitute for social welfare.
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So there is a, that's one of the primary causes of corruption is
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the fact that public officials are paid so badly in the first place.
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You'll walk into a police station some places and you'll try to make a
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complaint and the desk sergeant will tell you, we just, we're not gonna do
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that because we don't have any money.
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So they'll want you to pay a special fee.
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And part of that fee is to supplement their very meagre wages, but also it's
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so that they can buy basic things to investigate your complaint, like paper,
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to write it down, or to pay to get fuel to get into the car to go and investigate it.
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It's the same thing with nurses and teachers.
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They're usually paid so badly.
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This is the only way that they can make ends meet.
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So I don't want to be too hard on public officials that do get
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involved in petty corruption.
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One of the causes of corruption is low, very low salaries
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paid to public officials.
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So there's, so they are sometimes motivated to do it because
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they have no other choice.
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But, it doesn't really matter too much in a state where you can complain about it
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and they know you can complain about it.
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And they know, not always, but most of the time the complaint will be investigated.
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And most of the time you'll be vindicated.
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And so you'll be.
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No one's gonna try it on.
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And also in those states too, those public officials are paid fairly
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well in comparison to someone in some of those other countries
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where they're paid very poorly, so they don't really need to do it.
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It's interesting in advanced democracies where we have recourse,
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where that kind of corruption is less prevalent, where the system works,
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there's still this problem with trust.
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And what I mean by that is there'll be an incident of corruption.
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There'll be a bad apple say, and it'll be picked up on social media and amplified
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and sometimes exploited by populists.
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And they'll make out that the whole council or department or
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the whole authority is corrupt.
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There's a conclusion that, "oh, everyone's corrupt".
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And that's just so damaging to trust in governance, which is
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fundamental to a healthy democracy.
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And when you think about what's happening internationally, those of
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us living in advanced democracies are in a system whereby it's not
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frequent, it's not happening that often.
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Could you speak to that mismatch?
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Well, it's difficult to measure corruption.
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It occurs in secret.
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It's very hard to investigate using normal investigative measures.
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Petty corruption.
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Yeah, it's easy to deal with, with, so in liberal democracies established successful
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western states, for example, like Australia or the US or the UK, it's rare.
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And because it's easy to deal with.
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What's hard to deal with and what's secret and what's hard to find
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are examples of grand corruption.
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And when they're exposed, people do become very cynical because if
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something's exposed like that, then something's gone wrong with the system.
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Traditional law enforcement, traditional bureaucratic, administrative systems,
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they're not very good at dealing with that sort of grand corruption.
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They just don't, can't, it's hard to find, hard to identify and
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hard, very hard to prosecute.
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So you need different techniques and methods.
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And some of those western states, for example, and many developing states
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have have these institutions and laws now, and they're very effective at it.
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But in the UK and the US for example, you don't really have, for example,
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an anti-corruption commission.
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You have anti-money, money laundering laws, and you've got a serious fraud
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office, but you don't have any dedicated agencies that focus on corruption.
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And you saw through the Boris Johnson years, for example, cases of grand
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corruption going on and you're seeing it today of course, with Mandelson and Edward
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being charged with the classic corruption offence of misconduct in public office.
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Scott's referring here to the scandals and allegations of grand corruption during
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the tenure of Boris Johnson as UK Prime Minister and recent arrest in the UK of
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Lord Peter Mandelson and Andrew Mount Batten Windsor, formerly Prince Andrew, on
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suspicion of misconduct in public office.
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Both were released under investigation and at the time of recording this
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podcast, neither individual was charged with a crime and both have
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denied wrongdoing back to Scott.
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So yes, people have the right to be disappointed.
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I don't think that's entirely groundless.
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I think they have the right to be horrified when that goes on because
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it's not being dealt with because there isn't a systematic approach using
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modern techniques to deal with it.
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In the US right now, under Trump, if I'm looking at it as objectively as
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I possibly can, as someone who's an anti-corruption specialist and who
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spent time overseas and looking at these things, I would say what's going
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on there is the US is turning into a
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kleptocratic state, or the Trump administration, is going out
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of their way, to dismantle the few anti-corruption mechanisms
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that exist in the US government.
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If there's no one to catch grand corruption, then you'll see
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more and more cynicism if it's reported, even if it's not reported.
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People know, people sense it, and you also see more petty corruption
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because there are no consequences.
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So it'll slip, you can just see it slipping into a kind of
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systemic corruption situation.
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It would seem, dealing with grand corruption effectively would be very
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important to restoring confidence in governance, which is a very important
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part of arresting democratic decline.
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Can you speak to good models in the world where grand corruption
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is being dealt with effectively?
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Hong Kong ICAC before, well until about 10, five or 10 years ago,
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had a magnificent reputation.
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Malaysian anti-corruption commission has an excellent reputation.
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Even today.
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The Indonesian anti-corruption commission had a very good reputation until, I
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think it's last three or four years when there was political interference.
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And European institutions similar ones are, are very good too.
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So there are, there are a lot, but there, these sorts of things are not
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found in, in the UK for example, or the US or if they do a popup in the US,
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there's just sort of bits and pieces all over the place, which is not to
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say the US and the UK are far behind.
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They have things like money laundering laws and they have some
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investigative techniques that are common to countries which have a more
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advanced way of looking at the issue.
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But they could go a lot further.
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I'll give you an example.
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We'll use one from Queensland.
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Queensland, is a state of Australia.
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So it has, like a US state, it has its own premier, its own
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ministers, its own laws and things.
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And back in the late fifties, I think it was, a labour party government
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introduced a gerrymander, which unfortunately didn't work out for
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them because it worked the other way.
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And a quite a conservative, very conservative party took over and exploited
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that gerrymander, got into power and then made the gerrymander worse,
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kept rigging it to maintain its power.
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And eventually, that party became the dominant party.
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I think they were in power for about 26 years.
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Kept all the key positions to themselves, mostly in government,
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sometimes in the judiciary.
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Police corruption was out of control.
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The corrupt, a few, not many, but a few corrupt judges.
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Organised crime was out of control.
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But it all fell to pieces because of a few well-placed judges and
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lawyers and, and police officers who, after a very widely publicised news
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report about corruption and police corruption and prostitution, led to
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the establishment of a Royal Commission following all the bad press and so on.
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They had these very wide powers.
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And once they did that, there was no stopping it.
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So it went for about three or four years, and it brought down the government.
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It meant ministers going to jail.
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It meant police commissioner going to jail, an end to the gerrymander
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and the creation of a specialist crime and corruption commission.
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And a similar thing happened in New South Wales in the 1980s, although it
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tended to focus on police corruption.
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But out of that, they created the Independent Commission Against Corruption,
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which was based on the Hong Kong Independent Commission Against Corruption,
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which was the first such corruption commission in the world, which also
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followed from a massive investigation into police corruption in Hong Kong.
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So a key distinction of these corruption commissions is that they have greater
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powers than you'd ordinarily have with a criminal investigation.
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Yes.
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Every corruption commission in the Anglo Australian, New Zealand,
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Canadian, Indian, any commonwealth country, has this kind of Royal
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Commission structure available to it.
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So what happens is that they'll set up a specialist Royal Commission,
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which has all these amazing powers to investigate a particular issue.
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And we, Australia had experimented with this in the 70s and 80s, the Costigan
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Commission, Wood Commission, and it achieved a lot of really good things.
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Similarly, in Hong Kong, there was a royal commission there into police corruption.
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They have these very wide powers.
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They're not available to ordinary police officers, and they
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use them, very effectively.
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So they decided that they'd have a permanent royal commission.
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And so that's what you have, you have a, you have permanent royal commissions,
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and that's the model in Hong Kong.
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It's the model for the five commissions in Australia.
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It's also the model for commissions - there's about 30 anti-corruption
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commissions, I think - around the world.
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And they all have this same structure, very wide unusual powers, very wide
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unusual and unique investigative techniques available to them, quite
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above and beyond what would normally be available to the ordinary police officer.
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And that's what's lacking in the UK, for example.
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And it's certainly what's lacking in the US.
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I assume there's great media interest in the corruption commission's work.
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Yes.
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The, ICAC, the independent Commission against Corruption in New South Wales,
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has got a very savvy media relationship.
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The press are very, very interested in ICAC proceedings.
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ICAC is a bit unusual in that it loves to have public hearings.
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Everything it does is about having a public hearing.
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So they'll use these powers very strategically and carefully.
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The end goal is they will not start a commission investigation
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unless they think it's going to go to a public hearing.
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The public hearing means that everything's blown open, everything's exposed, and
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it attracts tremendous press interest.
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Often when you're looking at grand corruption, when you're looking at a
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corrupt minister, a corrupt politician, the thing they fear most is not jail or
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being prosecuted or anything like that.
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It's exposure.
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It's being harassed by the press, it's getting their photos taken
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as they walk out the front door of ICAC, being humiliated like that.
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And that encourages people to have trust in their, well, in the state.
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They may not trust the minister, they may not trust the local government
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official responsible for issuing a planning permit or a licence, but they
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will trust the commission to get it done.
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So they'll, the commission, ICAC, for example, will get
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about 2,500 complaints a year.
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Most of them, they can be dismissed because they're outside the jurisdiction.
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I mean, there are sort of legal rules about what ICAC can investigate, but
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it'll dismiss about, gosh, nearly all of them or send them back to another
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agency because another agency's better at investigating it than them.
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Highly specialist staff or something like that.
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And they just monitor the outcome.
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But they'll end up probably having about 10 investigations
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or 12 investigations a year.
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Each one of them will be public, each one will be broadcast and
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followed closely by the press.
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But as I say, other commissions are more secretive.
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They still have their, these tremendous powers, which are not available to
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ordinary police investigators, but they won't necessarily go to a public hearing.
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So Scott, you've been working in anti-corruption now for 20
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years or more around the world.
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I wanted to ask you, what's it actually like to work on the front
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line of countering corruption?
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Well, I've worked in two ways.
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I've worked in establishing or working with anti-corruption commissions in other
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countries, particularly developing states.
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And I've also worked in the corruption commissions in Australia.
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So in the former, my experience in other countries has been really very different,
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very exciting, very challenging, very rewarding, and very sad, depressing
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sometimes too, compared to my work here.
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Overseas, positive things would be the enthusiasm and energy of the people that
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were in charge of those commissions.
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The tremendous interest on the part of ordinary people in corruption,
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how motivated they were, civil society organisations and NGOs, and
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how, how easy it was to mobilise people around these topics.
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All these really new things coming down.
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They were very excited to get them started.
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The frustrating thing, of course, is that, well, as we say, you know, when you
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fight corruption, corruption fights back.
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So when they started getting headway and started getting results, they
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would get a very vicious response and responses that were, you know,
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very, very serious at a personal level and to the organisation as a whole.
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So that was sad.
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You'd often, or I'd be involved in operations, which would
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just be very successful.
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We'd spend a lot of time putting it together, but I,
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you know, would go very well.
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And then politicians would get involved and they'd pick it
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apart and nothing would happen.
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So that would be demoralising.
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So that was a downside.
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Working in Australia and those commissions is a very different experience because,
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you know, things are, they're, they're well established, they're organised,
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they're, I'm joining something that's already quite smooth and polished
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and working already very well.
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So it's a more operational role.
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I'm not an advisor and I'm just slotting in to an established organisation.
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So even there, it's just, just getting involved in cases, working on
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cases, sometimes on the investigation side, sometimes on the legal side.
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Are there moments that come to mind that were particularly inspiring, satisfying,
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something you don't mind sharing with us?
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Hmm.
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I mean, I've been involved in operations that went very well and I think we
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learned a lot from it, from a training point of view when I was working overseas
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and I like, they really developed the capacity of those organisations.
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People trafficking operations involving corrupt police officers and smuggling
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operations, involving customs offices, sex trafficking rings that led to
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really positive results and outcomes.
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Participating in massive frauds against central banks and
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those sorts of investigations.
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That was very exciting.
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But then, as I say, because those countries are still getting
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used to the jurisdiction, you would see the fighting back.
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You'd see corrupt politicians and the favours to organise criminals
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or corrupt police and so on, screwing around and making things difficult.
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In Australia, there's plenty of examples of corruption investigations
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that I was involved in that that led to really positive outcomes
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like, you know, convictions and prosecutions, confiscations of
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stolen assets and proceeds of crime.
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But in Australia we don't normally, we're very careful about what we investigate.
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There's a very thorough assessment process.
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We vet things very carefully, so we sort of cherry pick.
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We pick things that we know are going to have that effect of a
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chilling effect on other people that think they can get away with it.
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So that's what you're thinking about when you make a decision about whether
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you're gonna go to investigation.
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Is this a particular sector where there's a serious problem?
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We want to make an example of somebody to tell everybody else who's working
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in that sector or who's trying this on that this is not what we expect.
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And you're going to be exposed and you might even be prosecuted if you do this.
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It certainly sounds like the permanent anti-corruption commission is effective
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at countering grand corruption and can increase trust in governance.
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Can I ask, what can individuals do when they see corruption,
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when they realise it's happening?
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I mean, in some places it'll be obvious which authority they could report
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to, but generally speaking, could you think of some examples that might
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inspire people to play a part in a safe way, in countering corruption?
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Yes.
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I'm just thinking of one really good example in Eastern Europe
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where they would have a "gotcha" moment and they'd record it.
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So they'd go into a, they'd do some intelligence research.
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They'd identify where there was a corrupt sector, for example,
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a doctor that wanted a bribe.
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They would go in there and pretend to be a patient, and him insist on
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a bribe before he'd offer treatment.
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And they'd record it the whole time and then put it on TV.
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That was spectacularly popular and extremely effective.
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There's no reason why you can't do that today.
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Why shouldn't you be able to just drop that on Facebook or Instagram?
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And when I was working in one African country, we were trying
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to get that off the ground.
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But you have to be careful.
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You don't want to get people hurt.
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And in those sorts of countries where things are still working
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their way through people, you've gotta be very, very careful.
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Yes.
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But that's one thing you can do.
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Just film them.
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Just film them and put them up on Facebook or Instagram or some anonymous site.
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Depending on where you are, you're not breaking any laws?
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Not really.
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I mean, if, uh, if it's, if someone's act, there's no defence against,
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there's no, it's not defamatory.
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I mean, if they actually are taking a bribe and you film it, why not?
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It's this, it's fair comment, but you put it up when some sort of broadcast it.
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Essentially, the illegality of the corrupt act being recorded does
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not automatically legalise the act of recording or publishing it.
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In many places in the world, the recorder, the person filming it may face more
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immediate and severe legal consequences than the official being filmed.
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If you are interested in this action, consider contacting NGOs or media
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outlets near you, you can trust.
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Those that have access to legal advice.
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Working with such a group, you can check the legality and safety risks,
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build the right foundations to what you seek to achieve so you're all safe.
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Where there is many of you working together, legally, you're far
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safer than working alone and likely to be more effective.
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Building a case, with many examples, reporting it the right way, seeing
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the obstacles ahead, the consequences, working out smart strategies together.
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There's some really good NGOs in a lot of those parts of the world.
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Transparency International, operate at the local and international level.
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They have a lot of very good NGOs and they're always looking for
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people to get involved with them.
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There are MPs (political representatives), they hate to be getting letters
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and calls about corruption.
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Members of Parliament hate getting letters?
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Well, Members of Parliament get really freaked out if
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they get letters from people.
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So if you get a few, a few letters about the same subject, they, they
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worry that they're going to lose votes.
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So they'll, that's one way you just lobby your local member of parliament,
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whatever it is, or assembly member.
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That's one way.
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Always work in groups.
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Always make sure that you do more than one (instance of corruption).
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Always work through your own civil society.
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You can create your own, you can go through a church group, you
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can go through a political party.
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You can go through an established NGO.
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You could create your own some sort of youth group.
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The key is exposure and publicity, but to do it in a
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safe way, and also a lawful way.
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On that great note, Scott.
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I'll end it there.
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It's been a wonderful conversation.
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Thank you for sharing your knowledge and your time with us today.
24:51
Great.
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Thanks very much.
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It's a real pleasure.