Latest / Pod Therapy / #399: Kratom Chronic Pain, Solution Focused Grief Therapy, Postmenopausal Loss of Desire

Transcript

#399: Kratom Chronic Pain, Solution Focused Grief Therapy, Postmenopausal Loss of Desire · Pod Therapy

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Its gonna come and it could be like a whole
• 0:01
  Speaker 1: yellow snow bit exactly. I see where you're going with this.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: It'll be a sunrise. Oh my god, it'll be a sunrise.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Good all right. Yeah, see it's where the chutch ept
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: didn't suggest that it is. You know, AI is not
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: taking our jobs. They'll take a great creative jobs any times. Yeah,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: these writing jobs are here to stay. The Hollywood Union
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: is safe. What is that? The Screenwriters guilded Waite writers guilt.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: They're fine. Those guys are going to be safe forever.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Keep your jobs. Writers from fabulous Las Vegas and that
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: of This is pod therapy, real people, real problems and
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: real therapists.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: You can submit your questions anonymously pod therapy dot net
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: or email. It's at pod therapy guys at gmail dot com.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: And now broadcasting from the SJ and Rukus Studios Pond Studio.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: That's Jim. I'm Nick.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: Time for some pot therapy.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: I don't know how to say hello from Portugal, Pew pew, Texes.
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: I got some interesting news I can all right, I
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: just real quick before you interesting news. I'm sorry, Jim
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: just said something, yes, and I just need to check
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: on something real quick based on something that Jim just said.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Jim, what language do they speak in Portugal? Oh, Portuguesean,
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: Portuguean okay, one for one like Mexicans, you know, because
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: oh is it Portuguese? He was Spanish quizzed.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: On this fantasy football drafts.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: No, that's that's a card because he definitely just said,
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: like lay something.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, peep you because they you I think someone speak Spanish.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Someone lay in Portuguesean. Okay, don't they. I don't know
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: the Spanish people don't be Portuguesean. Yeah, I've never studied Portuguese.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: All right, well, I I also I'm sorry, Nick, what
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: did you have those interesting? Well we're equally I.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: Don't even remember now, but uh no, so I uh
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: I teased a little bit. I was gonna be a
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: podcast music right, Oh yeah, so we recorded that today.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: It is on the Basement Broadcast. What Test Miller? Oh
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: has a podcast, Yes, the Basement Broadcast.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Okay, check it out.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: I was interviewed for that and she so kind of
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: how we do or are supposed to do Monday deep Dives. Yes, yeah,
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: so they they kind of do a similar thing. And
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: so this show is what she calls the B side
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: and she just interviews a guest. And I was a
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: guest and it was all about music.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: I love it.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: It was honestly, and I'm not this is not hyperbole.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: I'm not exaggerating at all. Huge Dick probably the best
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: podcast that's ever been recorded. Wow.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Yes, okay, many are saying many people are many are saying, wow,
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: that's good. Correct, when you won, you won podcasting. That's
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: that's really at this point, so big news. And again
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: that podcast is titled The Basement Broadcast. Awesome.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: Probably going to be up for another month yet. Okay,
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: I think there's a bunch of episodes that are gonna
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: come out. Oh that's fine, keep your eye open for that.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Well, whenever tests gets it all put together, we'll get
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: the link. We'll make sure it's in our episode description,
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: and we'll we'll highlight it again. In other news, Best
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: of Las Vegas voting has begun. Go to vote Jim
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: dot Net every day, every device until August eighteenth. Oh,
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: it opened August eighteenth until September something something and vote
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: for me every day until last Tuesday. Actually voting is closed. Yeah, sorry,
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: Vote Jim dot Net every day, every device, very exciting stuff.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: Very happy to be in the running again and hopefully
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: defending my title. There are forty fucking mental health clinics
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: in Vegas, now I did. I was in this category.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: Some of those out and I got to say a
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: lot of them are really good.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Okay, right, well, fuck yourself a lot. They're even opening
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: a new category that's now called counseling. It's just getting
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: fucking ridiculous. Like there's two different mental health counseling category.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: You're looking at this all wrong. You should be looking
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: at that there's two that I can win.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: I didn't know about the second one, and if I
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: would have known, I could have like tied it all
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: into my little vote jim dot net website and gotten
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: two votes. So how do they define the difference between
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: We don't fucking know. I think that somebody just wrote
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: into the newspaper. That's how I got the category invented
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: in the first place, because they didn't have the mental
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: health clinic, and I wrote in and said, hey, you
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: should have some kind of mental health thing. They added
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: it the next year. You can write out again. Because
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: Matt Maddingle's ice cream Social is nominated again. Oh are
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: you for our best Las Vegas Comedian. Oh, very cool,
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: very cool.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: That's all we are.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: Oh, I think of you as a Las Vegas comedy group,
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: but we're a podcast media. The show is a podcast.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Is there a podcast? We are not a comedian.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: I do I do appreciate that you are now considered
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: one individual, right that feels right? Yeah, Like Matt and
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: Mattingley's ice cream social is up against Jerry Seinfeld. I
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: feel like, oh, dude, now we have to get you
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: over the finish line. If you redirect vote Jim dot Net,
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: it has a whole new goal.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: We just have to get our brothers fucking beat Jerry Seinfeld.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: I think he is. I think he's literally nominated in
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: this category. Oh that's a that's a tough run, buddy. Yeah,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: it's uh, we'll see. Well, now there is no people category,
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: and so people nominate us for something. They're like, oh,
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: these guys should be in for something. They're just like
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: this whatever, just yeah.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: We want to wait until next year when Jerry Seinfeld
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: is competing with Jim for best Mental Health.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: Motherfuckery, where they broaden the definition of mental health even more.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: Best Mental Healthy Comedian. Yeah, yeah, yeah, anyway, pod therapy
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: dot net. Right is that our website? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: because slash therapy, That's where I was going with that.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: Patroon dot com slash therapy, you can catch our early show,
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: the pre show. You can hear about our fantasy football adventures,
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: and also hear about my new real not ironic script
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: for a Hallmark Christmas movie that I improved, which you've
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: you've I love the notes. I'm gonna be honest. People
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: don't give you enough credit, I think for you're writing,
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: your writing abilities a lot, Yeah and yeah, but still
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: but not enough, not enough the accolades, not enough until
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: the Oscar. I don't feel that we've really like how
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: Copola doesn't get enough respect as a film direct. That's
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: how I was thinking. It's a lot of respect as
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: a film, but not enough. Yeah, yeah, no until until
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: this good man has an Oscar. The value of all
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: oscars is deteriorated. So patron dot com slash therapy, you
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: can hear my rough draft of my script. You can
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: hear about our fantasy football fundies and our favorite holiday
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: drinks and the problem that Nick clearly has with caffeine.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: It is an issue, my man. It's worried for you.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you need to go get check. No joke,
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: This actually happened last weekend. I was golfing, yeah, and
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: I was kind of like on the T box and
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: I was a little I was a little Yeah, it
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: was a little jittery. It took me a few holes. Yeah,
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: it's kind of like level out a little bit.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: Has some hair of the dog. Yeah, it's not good.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: Gosh, I should probably dial this back a little bit.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: Did I mean to describe this? I had a three
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: foot putt and I hit it thirty five.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: This is how people get addicted to cocaine. This is
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: exactly how it happens. Jason the Tiger literally Tiger Woods.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: We got some great questions for today's show. Excited to
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: read them off to you. The first one, we're leading
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: off the order with a tough one, and we were
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: just talking about this at the rehab that I work
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: at as well. It's a really common thing, but the
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: title is chronic unbearable pain. Hello pod therapy. For the
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: last eight months, I've been in chronic pain like someone
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: has stuck a knife in sensitive skin, constantly pressing and
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: relief never comes. I've seen two doctors that prescribe me antibiotics,
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: but that has not helped. I've tried over twenty herbal
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: supplements and even multiple rounds of fasting, making an appointment
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: to see a special list, but that could be weeks
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: or even months away. I'm emotionally exhausted without relief, so
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: much so I'm even considering using kratum, which is addictive.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: What do you say to your patients suffering from chronic pain?
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: At this point, it is affecting my will to survive?
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: Any good resources or books Yours truly, signed auci. It's
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: a good name for that letter. What is cretum? Yeah,
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: you want to take that? No, all right, so I'm
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: on it right now. So so kratim, dude is a
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: panias so creatim is like it's another basically opiate. It's
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: like partial llucinogen partial opiate. But you can get it
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: at smoke shops. So it's one of these drugs that's
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: not been around long enough to be scheduled by the government.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: I'll be like forbidden. So you drive past any smoke
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: shop and they'll have signs out that say you can
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: buy kratum. But cretum comes from a plant that's really
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: popular in Asia and so like in Asian countries, they
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: they mix it into a tea and it's basically just
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: like an opioid's tea, and it basically has the exact
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: same effect where you like, it's a painkiller, but then
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: it also is extremely addictive. You go through the same
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: spirals where you become tolerant of it, you need more
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: and more of it, and it's a real fucking mess.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: And Nick finds it hysterically.
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: Jesus for remembering of a time that we had to
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: dispose of like a pound of this stuff.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you have the rehab. When that kid brought it in,
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: he insisted on it. If you've never seen it before,
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: it's very it's very light, yeah, fluffy. Yeah, that looks
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: like I had to dispose of it. So I'm like,
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: I guess I'll flush it down the toilet. But when
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: you say that, like, yeah, like they make tea out
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: of it, Yeah, they do. So it's like, oh my god,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: like so many flushes as you pour it out, it
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: just gets in the air. It's so light and Mary oh,
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: it's on top of the water. It is uh illegal
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: to buy, possess, use, or sell in uh six states.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: Good Louisiana is the latest one. August first of this year.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: Nevada has an Alabama, Arkansas, Indiana, Vermont, Wisconsin, and Louisiana.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: It is now illegal to Nevada has a real problem
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: with it. And it's one of these things that you're
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: finding again at smoke shops. It's all over the place.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: You can even buy it online, and it's a real problem.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: And because it's not like forbidden federally, people get this
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: misunderstanding about it, and I think it's like ubiquitous. It's
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: kind of like we don't see this as often these days,
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: but do you guys remember when spice was every Oh yeah,
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: and everybody was like, hey, just because it's legal doesn't
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: mean you should fucking smoke this or bath salts. Yeah,
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: it was like again like you were seeing like zombies
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: like guys and shit wandering down the freeway and we
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: were all like, look, I get that the federal government's
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: slow to outlaw this shit. It takes an Act of
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: the Senate in Congress, and they can't even fucking fix
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: daylight savings time, Like, they're not gonna fix this.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: The thing with that specifically is like even when Congress
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: passes a law to make it illegal.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: All you have to do is you just change one
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: small thing exactly right, what are you talking about? Som
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: is a real pain in the ass. It basically has
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: the same effects as like heroin. It just it's not
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: as potent, but like it has the same problem and
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: what's happening the same opioid receptor exactly, and so opioid's
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: pain killers, right, and so like this is where a
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: lot of people find kretom is. They're not having success
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: with traditional pain specialists and other things, and so they're
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: starting to pursue this kind of on their own. But
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: then it becomes this terrible loop. So I'm glad that
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: the writer is writing in and saying, look, I am
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: getting desperate and I'm thinking about this, and I think
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: that gives us a chance to teach the public and
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: to reflect, you know, on behalf of the writer. Thatt
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: is a real dangerous game to play. And I've had
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: lots lots of people just in this last year. I
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: had a patient who was traveling across the world. They're
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: kind of a remote worker, and so they're kind of
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: taking advantage of that and kind of doing the digital
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: nomad thing. Got addicted to cretum and Thailand and like
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: just really dangerous and like really discovered, like hey man,
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: I'm not in a good place and like trying to
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: get help. And like in Thailand it's ubiquitous, like you
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: go to every bar and you could say like, oh,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: I won't have a beer, I'll have tea. I'll have
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: you know, credem tea, and just yep, here you go.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: But then like it's just just like heroin, Like it's
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: a liquid heroin, but it's not as potent, so you're
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: not gonna like it's not common that people just like
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: straight up O dion kretum, but they do the same
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: spiral right where the tolerance increases, the addiction increases, they
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: start to dissociate, they start to break from reality, terrible
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: symptoms of anxiety, and then just like again, it's only
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: gonna get worse.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: Like me with caffeine, a.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: Very similar it's almost pound for pound the same. They're
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: also finding a lot of stuff with it, liver and
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: kidney damage. Oh yeah, so people that already have any
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: kind of liver or kidney problems really shouldn't get closer.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: It's a fucking mess and it's tough because it's one
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: of those things that people go, oh, but it's natural, right,
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: And we've had this fight with the public for a
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: long time, and this is saying this is talk about
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: high doses and then extended use what was it called
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: chronic use, chronic use. But the thing that happens is
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: basically it stacks up on it tolerance Yeah no, uh
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: like uh compounding, like yeah, basically like that in your system.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: That's the effects you keep them on it. Yeah yeah,
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: yeah over time and apparently with that confusions, confusion, hallucinations
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: and delusions and paranoia. Oh yeah, no, it's a fucking
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: the paranoia not they say that's rare, but the hallucinations
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: apparently are pretty common.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So this is like one part opiate, one part hallucinogen.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: It's a real pain in the ass. And like it's
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: it's ubiquitous in society. It's really really popular among younger people.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: But what the writer's talking about, and this is something
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: we just had in our our rehab very similar in
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: the rehab I work out, we had a patient present
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: with addiction to cretim but really they weren't addicted to cretum.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: They didn't want cretum, they didn't just like having creatum.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: They were a person living in chronic pain and had
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: tried all these prescription painkillers and had just gone up
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: the escalator with that, because you know how that cycle goes.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: It's like, oh, let's start you off with vicodin, and
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: then all of a sudden you're on fucking delotted, you know,
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: and then you need like heroin or something, and then
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: they are in fentanyl. And so like this person was
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: just going up and up and up, and they had
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: diverted over to cretum in the hopes to get away
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: from the orange bottles and hoping like, look, this seems
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: like a nice little Asian smoke shop. It's a little
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: bit more natural. Yeah, I'm using herbal supplements, which this
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: writer relates to, right, and like starting to try this
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: other organic path, and then cretum kind of gets lumped
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: into that category. Is like, oh, this is one more supplement.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: It's a leaf, it's a tea. And then here we
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: have this patient going through all those symptoms that Jacob
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: just described, and it's really tough because at the rehab level,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: you're trying to help this person, but they they are
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: describing a real medical problem, that chronic pain is real
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: and when you're trying to remove this drug that's become
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: a secondary problem, you immediately bump into that number one
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: biological driver. And so this is where my interns were
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: really struggling. We're all working on like the ASAM and
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: talking about dimensions and like they're like, but Jim, there's
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: a biological driver here that's real, Like this, this pain
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: is real. We got to think about sure, and this
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: comes and I got a chance to teach them about
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: hyper algesia and in doctor Pohle's theory, and we should
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: probably talk about that because that seems like something that
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: the writer really needs to hear more about.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So basically, there's if you were to draw this
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: out on a graph, like I'm so, your vertical access
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: is going to be your pain and then your horizontal
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: axis is over time with opioid use, what you tend
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: to see is you're going to see it's a very
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: significant decline and pain. I'm sorry, it would be the dosage, right,
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: dosage yeah, versus dose Yeah. Yeah, So you're going to
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: see a steep drop and then it's going to stay
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: work really well yep, and then all of a sudden,
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: this what Gem's referring to as opioid induced hyper LGZ,
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: which it almost becomes like a U shape, yes, and
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: it shoots right back.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: Up way higher than it is. It's baseline you shape
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: like me, it's a Jacob line.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: And so it's basically what happens is over time, these
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: your paint receptors become super sensitive and then now things
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: that wouldn't normally trigger pain now do trigger pain, right,
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: And so it's it's different than tolerance, and that tolerance
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: is when the effect wears off or you need more
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: of it to get the same effect. This is different.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: This is actually creating sensitivity reception.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: I remember doctor Pohl, our our former boss and mentor,
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: who did a lot of great research on this, really
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: specialized in it. He would kind of teach it to
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: us as the opiates kind of deafen. They don't take
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: away the pain, they deafen your ability to sense the pain.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: And your body notices that something's wrong with the volume.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: So it turns the knob and it says, oh, I
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: can't hear it really, well, let's go ahead and turn
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: this thing up. And so it used to have the
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: knob at one and then it doesn't here well, so
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: it kicks it to three, kicks it to seven, and
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: then when the opiates come off of your system again,
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: now the sound is blaring and it's out of seven,
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: it's at an eight, and you're like fuck, and you
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: immediately have to cram more opiates in your system. And
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: now you're getting the double trouble, right, because now you're
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: kicking from the opiates, you're addicted, you're tolerant of that
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: that hurts already to like just withdraw, and now every
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: time you don't you come off of your dosage or
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: you're coming down from the medication, the volume knob of
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: the pain is ripped over to the right and so
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: it comes roaring back, and that's hyperalgesia. The sensitivity increases
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: over time, and that's that you shape that Nick's talking about,
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: where the mesice is working for a while and then
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: eventually everything is worse. So this is something right that
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: I think we want you to be informed about because
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: whenever somebody's dealing with chronic pain conditions like fibromyalgia, which
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: I'm sure your pain specialist is going to talk to
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: you about, and you're facing a very interesting thing because
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: it sounds like your first two doctors wanted to treat
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: this with antibiotics. I'm curious what they were trying to
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: deal with it sounds like there's a diagnosis yet, Yeah, yeah,
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: and the writer seems to talk about skin pain and
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: I you know, I'm guessing I'm just spitballing here, but
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: like doxy cyclean and stuff like that, like antibiotics that
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: are more focused on skin, and sometimes it's like some
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: kind of fungal infection or like some kind of beneath
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: the surface. I wonder if that's where his doctors are
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: starting with advice podcast. Yeah, do not take medical advice,
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: but I'm just I'm curious if that's if his doctors
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: are saying, hey, let's hypothesize that there's an infection, there's
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: something causing your pain, let's use the medicines that might
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: take that away first. Now that hasn't worked, so now
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: they're probably going to refer him to a pain specialist.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: And I think Auci's now going to get to sit
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: down and go over those options. And unfortunately, the tools
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: that a pain specialist has are usually going to be opiates.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: But they're getting better at not just dumping those down
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: your throat and saying good luck, like they're trying to
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: navigate the pain signals itself from a lot of different
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: methods now, but in the meantime, get you out of
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: pain so you can function.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: Because that's a that's a tough road to go down
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: because you know, the difference between pain is very important.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: We need to have pain, yes, right, so you know,
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: when there is tissue damage, we need to have that
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: message that sends a message of pain, so we know
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: to deal with the issue, right, the problem and what
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: what is what chronic pain really is is it's it's
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: the brain continuing to receive those messages when there's no
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: tissue damage exactly, you know, And so it's you have
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: to find there has to be some long term management
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: with this. And unfortunately one of the things is like
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: when we when we go to prescribing opiates, then we
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: have to ask and have this conversation with your you know,
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: with the prescribing doctor, what's the long term plan, right,
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: because if we're just gonna treat this with opiates, then
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: that we're gonna have to continue to increase the dose
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: right over time? The no winning I mean yeah, so
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: I mean so what so what is going to be
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: that long term strategy to dealing with this, right, Well.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be that long term. Yeah, that's true.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: I mean you can just use a lot of opiates. Yeah,
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: there you go. I mean, in some cases you do
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: not take advice from this podcast, don't ever. No, but
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: this is something that doctor Police to teach us about.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: And one of the things that he used to preach
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: was also, all pain is in your head. And at
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: first that sounds very dismissive because people don't feel that
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: they're being taken seriously. People like, oh, you're kind of
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: imagining it or making it worse. When you're stressed, when
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: you're anxious, when you're emotional, your pain seems to spike.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: I'm sure this is all being fabricated in your mind.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: And doctor Poul would say all pain is in your head,
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: and he didn't mean that dismissively. He meant no, literally,
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: the concept of pain pain itself. There is no organ
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: that is called pain. Pain can only exist as a
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: neurosensor signal to the brain. So it is just a
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: signal sent by organs interpreted by your brain to interpret
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: it as suffering. So you will attend to that. But
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: then he talks about how over time when you're in
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: chronic pain. Emotional pain and physical pain become indistinguishable signals
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: to the brain. Yeah, and so when you are in
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: emotional anguish, you start to feel physical symptoms of pain,
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: and when you are in physical pain, it causes emotional anguish,
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: and round and round the fucking circle goes. And then
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: we can get addicted to drugs in the middle of
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: all that, which treats both emotional symptoms and physical symptoms.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: And now you really start to create a house of cards.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: And that's why this is so complex. And writer you
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: talk about like, is there any good resources or books?
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: I've mentioned his name now several times. I'm going to
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: quote the book A Day Without Pain by doctor Melpole Pohl.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: It's a really good book. I think it stands the
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: test of time. It won several awards, and I believe
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: that doctor Poll and doctor Schiote had even created a
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: workbook that we used to kind of have there as well,
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: and it might even be called A Day Without Paining Workers.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: That's I've got that in my office right now, do you.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: I think both are published by Central Recovery Press, which
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: is useful because you can go to their website and
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: they have tons of resources because they employed doctor Pole
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: and doctor Schiote and went this route and really tried
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: to be a national trendsetter with the treatment of opiate
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: addictions and chronic pain. And what was nice about that, Auci,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: is that the way that doctor Paul approached it, he
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: wanted to get people off opiates because he saw that
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: as only adding another layer of complication. And his goal
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: was I want my patients to function. I'm not trying
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: to free them of all pain. He famously us to
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: tell us all the time there's only two pain free
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: states under general anesthesia and death Zoe. He said, my
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: goal is not to get you out of pain permanently.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: My goal is to help you have a different relationship
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: with pain so that it does not drive the car.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: It might still be a passenger, though, and I'd love
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: to get it out of the front seat and into
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: the back seat and just something that's around you but
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: not dominating you. And he had a lot of interesting methods,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: and doctor Sciotia, a psychologist stepped up, had a lot
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: of interesting mindfulness methods to just like change that volume
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: dial with your relationship to pain organically and psychologically. So writer,
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: I would really encourage that, but chronic pain is a
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: psycho logical issue as much as it is a physical issue,
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: and unfortunately it's an area that we have not done
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: a great job with our physical health colleagues bridging that gap.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: We tend to silo ourselves. I don't think a lot
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: of mental health providers are very well trained in chronic pain.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: You and I literally worked at a world class program
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: that specialized in it, and I feel comfortable describing it.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: I would not consider myself an expert at treating it,
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: even though we studied under these folks, Like, it is
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: just so nuanced and so complex. Yeah, it's a really
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: really hard thing to deal.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: With, man, Yeah, definitely so.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: And yeah those two for working through it. Man, it's
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: not easy.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: It isn't easy. But there are some resources out there,
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: So please check out that book. It's it's really good.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: It would be great to get doctor Pohle on an episode.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: Are you crazy?
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: Man?
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: I've told you what I did. I know you're just
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: gonna humiliate me. He would pull no fucking punches. He
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: doesn't give a fil why. I'm he would never do it,
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: and be if he ever did, it would be to
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: look me right in the eyes and just tell me
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: what he fucking thinks. I don't want any of this.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: I don't want to smoke at all.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: If I reached out to him, asked him to do
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: an interview and never mentioned that you were on the show,
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: I could get away.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: I don't think he would even recognize me. I think
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: if we were all now, maybe he would. I don't know. Man,
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: he's a really nice guy, and so I think he'd
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: be like, oh, Jim, Yeah, he used to work for me, right,
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: you're the guy gave me that pen. Yes, sir, please
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: like me. It's been fifteen years. Can we be okay now?
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: Please don't do that. That would be the worst we
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: are doing that. I have already sent him a message
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: on LinkedIn. Yeah, And you know what, And I would
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: also encourage you, Auci, to look up on YouTube doctor
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: mel poll po h L.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: He has.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: He's given so many big talks, he's conferences all the time,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: and he's a great sp in, a great interview and
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: I'm sure that he's got content everywhere talking about this stuff.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: But you know, Auchia, I just strongly encourage you a
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: stay away from the fucking creative man. Don't fuck around
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: with it. I do not see this is a good thing.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: That's a bad idea. I just don't want you playing
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: with that. I want you to talk to a specialist,
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: and I want the specialist to help you navigate this.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: It sounds like your medical team is trying to figure
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: out is there a cause that we can cure, and
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: as time goes on, if there is no cause, then
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: we need to start learning how to manage this with
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: medical and psychological tools. And if they don't refer you
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: to therapy, I strongly encourage you to try to find
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: that as well. Everybody drink I've recommended therapy. It always happens.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: But even though there are very few of us in
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: the field that specialize in this, in the studies that
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: doctor Polis to show us, we know that whenever somebody
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: is attending to their emotional health and they're finding positive outlets,
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: even the cathartic relief of talking and languaging through their pain,
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: it lowers the volume on the emotional pain knob and
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: that affects the physical pain knob because all pain is
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: in the brain, and so if you're lowering one, you're
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: affecting the other. With you realizing and.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: Honestly, there's no one on earth who's dealing with ten
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: level pain right that wouldn't take the deal of Like, Hey,
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: what if I can get you down to a six?
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah? Would you take a nine and a half?
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: Ye yes, I will got it. Yeah yeah, I will
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: take that whenever it takes it. What if I told
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: you have to sit down and talk to you know,
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: a shrink for an hour a week. Yep, that's gonna
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: take me down half a point. It's worth it to me.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: Ye.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: Anyway, Auchi, you are not alone in this. Please look
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: into those resources. Please say the fuck away from the kratim,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: talk to a pain specialist, talk to a therapist, look
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: into some of your options. I hope this gets better
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: for you. I have seen so many people navigate this,
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: and I just want my last word on this to
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: be a lot of what Nick and I saw at
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: that program at Las Vegas Recovery Center back when they
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: had the pain special Specialty program. It looked like miracles
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: to me. I saw people coming in in wheelchairs completely
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: oken and leaving on their feet doing yoga, like their
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: relationship with their body fundamentally transformed. So I know there
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: are paths to wellness, and I just strongly encourage you
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: to pursue those but I promise you, if you just
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: get into unrestricted opioid user fucking around with craton, it
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: is only going to make this more complicated and more
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: difficult to undo. So please, if you can avoid that,
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: don't go down that path. We are going to take
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: a quick break and when we come back, we're talking
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: about grief in therapy. You're listening to pod Therapy.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: Today's episode that brought to you by Judy Carolyn Albert,
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: Sammy Scoop, Sarah Smith, Mike Helm, Darond The Loan Dive,
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: Brady Maalaisa and Max the Ginger Scoop. If you would
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: like spots in the show, become with therapn dot com
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: slash like.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: This John Deere, have buddy, thank you a solid hat.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: Wear it often.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it again. And I know I've pointed this
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: out before. It's super ironic because we don't have any
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: grass anywhere in our states. Just no point.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know that does more than grass.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: It's actually I mean, lawnmowers are probably a very small
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: percentage of their market, but.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: They sell a lot of rakes for Rocks Tractors.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: Mostly it's a tractor company. So they've got a lot
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: of a lot of uh it's it's not it's based
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: kind of in the Quad Cities, but Waterloo, Iowa, where
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: I live. Yes, that's like that's the major employer is
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: John Deere. Okay, they've got a lot of a lot
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: of a lot of plants. And John Dear one of
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: my friends, one of my good buddies. Uh, snubby, snubby snubby. Uh,
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: he works for John Deere and he works in the
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: the wind tunnel.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: Oh, they have a wind tunnel. It was like a NASA.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: Tractors going.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: We gotta test these things tolerances. We got to hit
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: Mack nine by next month. Aero dynamics on this tractor
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: our ship. We're never gonna get the Russian Russians fucking
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: yard over there. We're never gonna make it.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: Man, all right, We're we're gonna wrap up. Misheard lyrics
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: from so.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: John Dear does make rakes by the way, Oh thank
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: god John.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: Uh Uh, Jim, you're gonna take over Whitney's points all right?
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Oh good nou.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: Okay, here you go, Jim. A rock song casually reported
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: yet another death.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: These are lyrics. No, they're incorrect. Yeah, this is a
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: this is a description of the lyrics. Oh okay, a rock.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: Song casually reporting yet another death.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: All right, so if I guess that did I get to.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: You're not gonna guess. Here are your options?
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: Another one bites the Dust by Queen Highway to Hell,
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: a d Knocking on Heaven's Door by Bob Dylan, or
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: let it Be by the Beatles.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: Fuck it comes off as a well, that sounds like
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: another one bites the Dust. That sounds like that's what
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: those lyrics are doing.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: I think it would be your final answer.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, I feel like you're trying to talk me down.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: You know what. Fuck you? Yes, it is my final answer.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: It is correct. Yes, I'm playing your games, bitch.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: I've got two chickens to paralyze by Eddie Money, is it? I?
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: No, I don't want options. Two tickets to paradise. Oh
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: my god, I've got two chickens to paralyzes.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: Yes, you are correct, all right, Jim misheard, here's a
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: misheard lyric. We didn't start the fire, it was always burning,
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: said the worst attorney.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: Oh jesus, well, I know the song, I think, but
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: you have to do. What is the song and the line?
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, I can get the line. I think, all right,
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: we didn't start the fire. It was always burning since
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: the world's been turning?
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: Is that it?
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: That doesn't say anything about a lawyer at all? Well, okay,
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: but that's the wrong lyric. Right is the little lawyer thing?
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: But the song's about the lawyer. It is, of course
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: it is. Oh Jesus, I thought it was like, it's
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: about an arson attorney. The whole song, the whole rock
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: song is the life story of an arsen attorney.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: What was his name?
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: It was like Edward r. Fire or something that makes
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: it really was? It was Burns, Edward Burns, attorney at law.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: That's right, that's right, Arson attorney at law. Yeah, arborist,
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: Avid arborist. I don't know how to get this answer.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: So did I get it?
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: Like?
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: I don't know? Is that is it the correct thing?
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: Sure? Yeah, all right, last one misheard lyric. It doesn't
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: make a difference if we're naked or not.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: Doesn't make a difference if we're naked or not. We
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: got each other and that's a lotful. Well give it.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: We're halfway there. Oh, blizard on a chair. I love
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: all the repeats that wizard on the stairs. Those are
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: so good, I say, give them the points of the Lord
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: for the bear. Yeah, there's like a whole like list
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: of the meme answers for that, and I dig it
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Grief in therapy, Hey pod therapy crew, fellow therapist. Here,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: I'm in a bit of a bind and thought this
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: might resonate with others, both in and out of the field,
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: so here it goes. The universe has apparently decided it's
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: grief season in my case load. In the past couple
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: of weeks, I've had an influx of clients, some brand news,
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: some I've known for years, suddenly facing devastating, life altered losses.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: Here's the problem, well, I understand and lean into the
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: common factors. My main theory is solution focused brief therapy
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: IT and the usual tools finding exceptions the miracle question.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: Goal setting feel completely wrong in the face of earth
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: shattering grief. Yesterday I sat with a long term client
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: describing a shocking loss and it hit me, I have
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: no idea how to write a treatment plan for this
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: set meaningful goals, or even if I should or help
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: beyond just sitting in the pain with them. So my
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: big question how do humans work through grief that feels
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: like it exists outside of time? And as a therapist,
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: how do I walk with them through it in a
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: way that's actually helpful. Any wisdom strategies or resources would
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: be so greatly appreciated, thinks a non a therapist pronouns
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: are she and her? Oh a lady, get my cavafier.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: I used to have this, uh, this problem a lot
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: with uh. I think for a lot of I don't
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: know a not a therapist level of experience, but I've
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: had this experience with like a lot of interns, yeah,
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: or folks that are new with solution focused therapy. Yes,
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: the trap that you can easily run into with the
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: miracle question.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: Yes, so this is not the time for that question.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: You can still use the miracle question, but you you
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: have to set it up and you have to word
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: it in a particular way. So for those of you
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: who don't know what the miracle question is. So, solution
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: focus brief therapy is a great philosophy in therapy. I
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: I love it. It's probably the thing that I've spent
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: the most amount of time on. Yeah, probably even more
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: than CBT to be honest, and SFBT is kind of
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: a it's one of those where you can use solution
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: book focus brief therapy, but it almost feels more more
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: than just a technique. It's almost kind of a mindset.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: You can have a perspective. Yeah, and so the miracle
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: question essentially if I were to summarize it, So let
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: me back up first. So a solution focus Brief therapy,
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: a lot of it is kind of coming back to
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: this idea that there's always exceptions right to everything, and
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: the exceptions are where we find the keys to success.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: So there was an old I remember in one of
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: the books I think there was written by Stephen Deschazar,
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: who is one of the founding guys of SFBT, where
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: he's talking about like this old like Chinese proverb or whatever.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: We're talking about like the utility of a vessel isn't
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: in the hall, but it's in the empty space between.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: So if you imagine like a boat, you know what
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: really makes a boat float and function on the water
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: is it's the empty space in between the hall. Right then, anyway,
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to go to you get it. So
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: the idea behind this is that there's we spend so
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: much time looking at problems and how do we fix
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: the problem, that we ignore all of the exceptions. So
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: if I have a client that is constantly depressed, except
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: you know, on this one day they weren't depressed.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: Or maybe anger, maybe.
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: Anger.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: I'm always angry, yelling at my kids, I'm yelling at
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: my boss. I need to get this under control and
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: destroy my life. Then then what we do is we
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: find a time. Tell me about a time you weren't angry.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: Tell me about a time that you didn't lose your
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: temper with your children, Tell me about a time that
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: blah blah blah. And you try to find all of
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: these exceptions, and then we try to figure out what's
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: the common thread in all of this. We were reverse
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: engineer a solution out of that. Yeah, So whatever the
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: problem is. If if you're a if you're addicted to math,
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: you're not a perfect addict, right, Yeah, No matter what
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: you do, you will never do anything perfectly. So there's
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: going to be a time where you didn't use math, right,
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: tell me about that time that we find that fascinating
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: and it's not. When we frame it this way, it
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: can come off oversimplified. It's really not. It's a very nuanced,
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: gentle approach that doesn't oversimplify the problem into oh but
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: there was one time you didn't do it, so let's
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: just copy and paste that. Yeah, not at all. But
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: we want to instill a lot of hope. We want
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: to empower the client to find their own unique twist
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: on the solution. We don't want it to be formulaic.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: And implementing it wouldn't look at all like what I
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: just did, right, No, no, yeah, this is the the
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: run of the cover. Yeah, we're just reading behind the scenes,
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: the nuanced.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: And you know, pairing it with things like motivational interviewing
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: and like other techniques go hand in hand with it.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: It's really like practical, it's a very practical. Let's look
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: at what you're doing, let's look at what we can change,
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: let's make a small degree of change, and let's focus
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: on what we want to see differently tomorrow. It's very
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: very practical. Yeah, which really breaks down fast when we're
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: talking about grief.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: So the miracle question is a technique, a way to
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: help identify the exceptions, except not exceptions that have already happened,
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: but really kind of looking at what would this look
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: like if the problem was gone?
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: Right. It's a way to draw a very stark contrast
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: into what change needs to look like and feel like
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: in your life, because a lot of times patients don't know.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: They come in and say, I don't know, I'm unhappy. Yeah,
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: and you say, okay, what do you mean you're unhappy? Well,
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: my life's not going very well. So what do you
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: want out of therapy? I want you to fix my life? Okay,
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: this is getting really rough, so we asked the miracle
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: question to help them illuminate what it is that would
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: actually look differently.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: Again. Another reader's digest version of this would be if
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: to be able to say, Okay, so as you're thinking
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: about this problem, let's just say a miracle occurred and
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: this problem is gone. What would be different about your life? Yeah?
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: You wake up tomorrow morning and there's a bright light
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: in your room and it speaks to you in a
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: soft voice, and it says all your troubles that you
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: were worried about that you were going to go to
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: therapy about those have been resolved. And then it flickers
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: away and then you think, holy shit, how high was
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: I last night that I just saw this thing that
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: I just hallucinate this thing. But then something inside of
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: you thinks, what if that's real? What if that voice
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: was telling me the truth. You start going through your
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: day and you start noticing things that have changed in
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: your life. What do you see that's different that confirms
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: that voice was telling the truth? How are you different?
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: How's your life different, how's your family different? How do
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: you feel different? What would you notice that's different.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: So there's a lot of different techniques because if you
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: just throw that out there and say, let's say I'm
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: in therapy because I'm grieving because my mother died, right
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: and like they throughout the miracle question, miracle happened, what
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: would be different, Well, my mom mom didn't die. Then,
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: as a therapist, yes, you're exactly.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'd like to try to get okay, new miracle.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: Mom's definitely dead, So I'm getting around that they're different.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: Way is mostly powerful powerful, Okay. There are rules with
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: the genie. No raising anybody from the dead, can't make
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: anybody fall in love with anybody else. Laddin rules, Laddin rules, So.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: There are ways. There's a million different ways of utilizing
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: a miracle question. I can think of ten different ways
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: that I used it on a regular basis. And have
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: you ever, Jim, have you ever have you ever done
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: a yes set?
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, Yeah, that's a really useful skill to
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: like keep it going and then draw it out.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: Okay, So so Jacob, all right, so go into movies, right,
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: think about like movies, Like we kind of we kind
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: of got out of going to the theater during COVID, but.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: And it was it sucked because it's nice though, as you,
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: me and Whitney had been going a lot.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's been a lot of fun, true, bitch. Yeah,
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: But I love the experience of going to a movie.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: I love being able to like go there. I like
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: being able to walk in. I like even like getting
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: the anticipation, getting the snacks, sitting down, waiting and then
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: the lights kind of dim and then that THHX sound
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: comes in and on the screen. Yes. Yeah, okay, So
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: what I did is a yes set, right, Okay, So
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: what it is is it's a technique where I'm slowly
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: naming off things and I'm getting the person say yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: which increases the likelihood that they're going to say yes
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: to the next thing, right, Right, So.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: You're steering them in a positive direction, exactly the goreement.
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: So you can do a miracle question, but you should
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: really kind of lead up to it with a yes,
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: set right, and create a way of doing this. So
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: like I always used to do this with, you know,
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: working with people and just kind of saying, like you remember,
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: like when you were a kid and you didn't have
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: a care in the world and you could just be
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: outside just playing all day and you're going to mom.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: Mom calls you in it's time to go to bed,
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: and you have one of those nice night sleeps where
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: as soon as you put your pillow to the bed,
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: you're just out and you sleep soundly. If you were
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: to imagine tonight that you have a night like that,
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: and you have a sleep exactly like that, and in
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: the middle of the night a miracle occurred and you
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: woke up the next morning. But because this miracle happened
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: while you're sleeping, you had no idea what would be
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: the first indicator to you that's something it's a yeah,
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: And so it kind of slowly builds up to it,
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: as opposed to just saying, let's say a miracle happened.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: You know, if you do that then you've lost them, right. Yeah,
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: here's so you can phrase a miracle question in the
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: sense of like, we are not changing anything that has
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: already happened exactly. Okay, Yeah, everything has happened up to
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: this point. Now what and you kind of have to
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: be creative, but you have to frame it. You have
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: to set the rules first.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: Now we invent a way to bring my mother back
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: to life, I'm always gonna come back to that. But no,
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: that is the real difficulty of trying to use solution
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: focused therapy on trauma, because it is very tangible, it
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: is very practical, it's very here and now. What is happening?
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: What was going wrong? How can we do something slightly different?
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: Even the miracle question is designed to contrast in real, practical,
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: lived experiences, here's what change would look like. We're ultimately
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: trying to discover illicit and amplify change. But when you're
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: dealing with trauma, as the writer's talking about, change isn't
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: the goal. Healing is the goal experiencing and counting. I
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: feel like.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: You're moving away from the miracle question too quickly. Go ahead, Okay,
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: you can still use the miracle question in that sense. Okay, Okay,
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: I'll give you another scenario, all right, so writer, you
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: can use this one too. This is another favorite of mine.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, where ancient Chinese proverb ancient Chinese bran who run
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: in front of carget time.
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: This is this is the walk in the park. Okay,
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: So I want you to this is. We're just gonna
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: do kind of a vision imagination thing here real quick.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: So I want you to imagine that you're walking through
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: the park. Okay, it's a beautiful day. It's one of
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: those perfect days. Is there music going? Yeah? Yeah, okay,
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: purpose chicken.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: You don't hear it?
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: Oh I can't hear it?
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: There you go.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: Okay, you're fucking killing this.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: That's what it does. It just lashes time.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: We're going, we're going for a walk, and it's a
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: beautiful day. It's like the perfect day, tempt right, Sun's shining,
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: it's amazing. But you can't really enjoy this day. And
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: you can't enjoy the day because of the grief that
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: you're feeling, because of all of the problems that you're
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: dealing with right now, and it's just weighing you down.
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: So you decide that you just need to sit for
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: a minute and so you see this park bench, you
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: sit there, You're dealing with all of this heavy stuff.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: You're upset that you can't enjoy the day. You don't
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: even realize that next to you is an elderly person,
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: and this person's in their eighties. You kind of realize
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: that this person's there, you don't really think anything of it.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: You're just so caught up in your emotions. And then
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: you kind of look over. You see this person, and
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: this person's looking back at you, and you realize that
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: you're sitting next to your future self. You're sitting next
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: to you at eighty years old. They know exactly what
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: you're going through. They know the grief that you're dealing with,
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: they know the pain that you're going through. They got
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: a big smile on their face. They slide over, they
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: put their arm around you, and they say.
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: What mm I like that.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: Okay, So it's just another version of the miracle question.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: Right right now, it's just masturbation. I know you want this,
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: you know I want this. You know that I know
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: that you want this. Gay it's just us.
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: So it's just another version of the miracle question, except
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: we've changed it, We've reframed it in a way that
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: you're not changing the past. We are one recognizing that
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: this absolutely sucks and this is not going to go away.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: I love that. I think you painted it beautifully and
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: I think that is a great illustration of how this
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: technique still has value and trauma work. And I would
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: agree with you where I would I would continue the
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: conversation is that to me, the miracle question has a
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: lot of great value for me, at least the way
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: that I apply a s FPT kind of in the
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: beginning of encountering what ails us and setting a stage,
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: helping me form a treatment plan, and kind of mapping
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: out the quest right where do we want to go?
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: And setting goalposts what does success look like? That's kind
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: of where I draw that for me. Where I can
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: appreciate the writer as well, though, is that solution focus
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: brief therapy is very task oriented and is very goal driven,
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: and a lot of the other exception finding and goal
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: setting and scaling and things like that, are very much
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: about eliciting and finding change and measuring progress. What is
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: difficult about grief and trauma healing is that in many ways,
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: and we've used other metaphors to talk about trauma in
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: the past, we've talked about the ball in the room
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: with the button, and every time the button is compressed,
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: you feel the pain. And the beginning, the ball is
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: really large, and over time this ball like shrinks in size,
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: but it keeps bouncing around and every time it compresses
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: against that button, it still hurts, you know, even when
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: it's golf ball size. It doesn't happen very often, but
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: eventually it finds the button again. I think those metaphors
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: kind of communicate this more realistic approach and grieving and
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: trauma work that sort of prepares the patient for the
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: understanding that we're not gonna build a ladder to climb
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: out of this pit. We're gonna wander in this very
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: terrible space and we're gonna go through your nine levels
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: of hell. There is no stop watch, There is no
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: way to time this. And I don't want to push
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: you in a way that SFBT often does that kind
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: of nudges you toward progress, elicits optimism, elicits hope. Trauma
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: is weird and grieving is weird because in many ways
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: they have to go through just breathing in and holding
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: the pain, and that's part of it. And there is
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: no practical way to expedite that. But the work is happening,
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: and writer, I guess that's where I would join Nick
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: as far as like offering you some real practical advice.
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: You know, therapists, the therapists how to treat this patient.
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: You talk about, like how do I even design treatment
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: planning for this. I'm a big fan of the text
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: that I make a lot of my students perch. It's
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: called The Complete Adult Psychotherapy Treatment Planner. It's published by Wiley.
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: I thought for sure you were going to say Dad
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: Vice or dead Vice, a bunch of stories about getting gross.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: It's about treatment planning for trauma. This is just a
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: book for people with children, no God anyway, So get
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: that planner if there's a whole chapter in there about
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: ways to frame treatment goals and objectives that surround uh
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: A trauma, processing and grieving. And also what I really
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: like about that book is it also indicates to the therapist,
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: here are evidence based practices that we use when we're
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: dealing with trauma. Here's probably the recommended playbook. At the
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: end of the day, I think Nick and I we
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: do a lot of trauma work. There's a lot of
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: trauma working addictions, solution focused brief therapy, motivational interviewing. I
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: think of these not as as sets of strategies. I
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: think of them as perspectives. Like you said, I think
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: of them as a dialect a way that we just
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: naturally talk, but we also know how to weave that
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: into true trauma work. And trauma work is walking through history,
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: processing the memories, hot tears on cheeks, remembering pain, and
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: then gliding into life and then talking about their pumpkin
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: spice latte that they got and how they're looking forward
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: to the fall and how excited they are, and then
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden, their breath leaves them and they
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: suddenly look blankly into the sky. And here you are
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: talking to them in therapy, and they say, this person
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: I miss loved this time of year. I remember the
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: first time I bought them a pumpkin spice latte. They'd
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: never had one. And like, there isn't quite a solution
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: focused technique or maneuver that I would really want a
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: therapist to deploy in that moment. I want you to
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: switch your skill set. I want you to just do
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: person centered therapy, right. I want you to go full Rogerian.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: I want you to lean into the therapeutic alliance. I
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: want you to follow them through trauma. I want you
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: to create space, be curious, do a lot of intuitive
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: work about them, like going into the memories, asking probing
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: deep questions, trauma timelines. I think have a lot of
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: value you in this kind of scene. But grieving, the
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: best model that I've ever found for grieving in therapy
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: is a reference to ancient Judaism. They have a practice
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: called shiva, and I think it's still practiced, but it's
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: the way that they do funerals and grieving where family
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: and friends sit with a grieving person and imagine the
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: pain coming out of this person like a black, billowing
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: smoke that's filling up the room, and those who love
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: you are physically in your presence breathing this hot smoke
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: into their lungs on your behalf, so that with every
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: breath there's a little bit less in the room and
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: we're just in it together. And to me, when I
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: do grieving therapy and trauma therapy, that's often what it
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: looks like. It's just bonding with this person, walking through hell,
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: with them keeping their head above water. If I can
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: sprinkling in those solution focused techniques, being optimistic, using things
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: like your framing of the miracle question to also remind
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: them one day you will get through this. One day
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: you will heal. But also you'll never be the same
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: as you were before this trauma. It will fundamentally change you.
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: I think with a lot of my approaches, they don't.
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: If you were an outsider looking in onto any of
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: my therapy sessions, if I'm working with grief, you would say, oh,
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: Nick has switched gears. He's using something different.
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: Oh I see, But in reality, I'm not, because it's
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: fundamentally always your Yeah, what.
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: I'm doing is i'm i'm I'm changing the approach of
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: how it's being used, or I'm i'm adjust I'm moving
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: the goalposts. Okay, So, like, for example, when it comes
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: to treatment planning, you know, I'm You've heard me say it.
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: I'm like huge into treatment planning. That's that's my thing
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: right now. If you actually look at a treatment plan
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: that I would be developing for someone in a situation
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: like this, from an outsider's perspective, you may say, well, like, oh, well,
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: this is way different than your typical treatment plan, and
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: it's really not just the focus as different. It has
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: changed as opposed to creating a treatment plan based off
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: of like progress in uh overall functioning, right, or increasing
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: functioning or decreasing symptoms right. Instead of that, the treatment
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: plan is going to be more exploratory, right, It's going
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: to be like, hey, let's not we're not going to
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: do anything right. What we're going to do is we're
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: going to sit and we're going to explore. I'm really glad,
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: and we're going to feel comfortable with where we're at, yes,
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: and then we can start moving.
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like if we were languaging that and I was
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: actually going to pull up the text of that planner
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: because I have it on my phone, but I don't
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: want to take the time to let it load. But yeah,
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: Like an example treatment goal that we might have for
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: somebody dealing with anxiety is Nick will decrease episodes of
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: anxiety severity by fifty percent three days a week or whatever.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: And these very measurable things, these units of measurement. But
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: with trauma, we really don't, you know. We we tend
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: to say things more like Nick's ability to cognate and
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: process the pain and emotions, to be able to name
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: those emotions and cope with them in healthy ways will increase,
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: you know, like he's just gonna do the fucking work.
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: And really it's just we're going to climb down into
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: hell together and we're going to learn how to sit
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: in the smoke for longer and longer until there's less
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: and less of it and that's it. And like the
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: treatment plan language, this is why I like that planner
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: because it really does have great phrasing for that to
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: you know, conceptualize that. But I'm really glad you brought
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: that up because I think this goes to your point
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: of like people would think that you're not doing solution
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: focused work. You really are, but you're also changing what
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: the purpose of it is, right, and what your intentions are.
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: It's not to cease using math. It's not to be
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: less angry. I don't want to see you do less
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: trauma pain. That's not the goal. The goal is we're
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: going to get every last drop of this until you
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: have done it.
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because sometimes you know, in therapy it's all about
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: moving and it's about going someplace. Well, sometimes it's useful
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: to just sit and let's get our bearings straight. Let's
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: figure out where we're at first. Yes, yeah, and then
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: we can kind.
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: There is no fast way through this. There is just
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: the correct way. And like you think we've talked in
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: the past about crisis intervention and debriefing and like meeting
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: with first night, there it is and you know you're
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: here when we go through like really traumatic events and
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: we like sit with those people and process what they've
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: been through. It's really not a race. There's no method,
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: there's no way to build ladder faster. It's just be
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: with that human let them process this whenever it arrives,
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: grieve it in an honest and organic way, confide in language,
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: and metabolize these memories, these thoughts, these feelings, and they
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: may have to do that as many times as as
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: they need to, and then eventually the suffering is made
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: less through the process. And that's it. And if you've
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: done that, writer, you've been a therapist. You've joined that person.
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: And it's really hard. As a therapist. The trauma work
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: is one of the hardest things that we do. And
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: it's one of the areas that most therapists will admit
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: to each other we feel the least effective at, we
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: feel the most powerless in because it's very hard to
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: measure our success in addictions work. When your person is
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: sober and their relapse plan is strong and they're making
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: good choices, and you can measure all these great things,
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: you can start to feel like, Wow, I'm really good
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: at this, and like I know exactly what plays this
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: person needs and how to increase their motivation and their
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: stage of change from A to B. But with trauma work,
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: it's really hard to know, because when we descend into
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: the grief of hell with them, I don't know how
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: far we have to go. I don't know where north is.
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: We're just wandering through this horrible fucking experience and I'm
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: hoping and I'm holding onto this idea in the back
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: of my head that eventually we will see a glimmer
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: of light through the fog and we'll start walking toward that.
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: But as a therapist, few things feel more powerless than
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: joining somebody with trauma work and grieving. But few things
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: are more beautiful and more rewarding in this career than
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: to have walked through hell with somebody and get them
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: to the other side of that. Because few humans, I
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: think have the natural attending skills and the training and
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: the patients and the intuition to walk with somebody through that. So, Writer,
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: you might feel powerless, you might not know what your
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: strategies are. You might be like God, damn, I wish
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: I had a playbook. I promise you if you lean
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: in on your person centered skills, if you use solution
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: focused thinking and optimism as just a fundamental perspective without
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: allowing that to accidentally become dismissive of this person or
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: to accelerate this person any direction. If you're just patient
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: with them, and you're present with them, and you let
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: them language what they're going through and be curious about that,
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: you will eventually arrive on the other side and they'll
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: get there and they'll feel better, and they'll move on
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: as best as they can. But also, don't make it
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: a goal to restore them to who they were before
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: this loss. It's not the goal. That can't be done.
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: You cannot unring the fucking bell. All you can do
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: is help them discover who they are on the other
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: side of this trauma. That's it, and hopefully it's manageable
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: for them. But good luck, writer, I'm glad to have
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: you in the field. I think you're asking really great questions,
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: and please you know, continue to follow up with us,
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: give us feedback. We love just hearing from colleagues and
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: just trying to do the best coaching we can. If
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: you're not already in the discord, I strongly encourage to
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: be in it. We have a lot of other colleagues,
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: a lot of other therapists, a lot of students that
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: you know, have gotten tangled up with this damn podcast
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: and they love to comment and give feedback, and a
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: lot of people who've been through therapy and been through
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: this kind of stuff, and they'll have feedback for this
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: question too. And so every single question we have in
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: the discord, it turns into a case study of listeners
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: kind of given their two cents. So if you want
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: more thoughts, more feedback, I really encourage you. Patreon dot
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: com slash therapy, throw a dollar in the hat. We
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: won't even see it. Patreon will get it, but you'll
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: at least get access to the discord and then you
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: can kind of see what other people discuss related to
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: this question. But good luck with this one. A Nona therapist,
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: glad to have you in the field. We are going
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: to take another quick break and when we come back,
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: we're talking about a positive thing finally losing desire in
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: my marriage. You're listening to pod Therapy's happiest episode, Simplifies
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: Things Today.
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: Episode is brought to you by Judy Schneiderley and Carolyn Albert,
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: Sammy Scoop, Sarah Smith, My Cow, Darren Cuttingham, Cody the
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: the Loring Guy, Brady Machi Max and if you would
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: like to smash the show, becoming their matreon dot com
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: slash therapy. All right, we're doing cryptids, Myths and Oddities.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: True?
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: Am I saying that right? Cryptids? I think it was right?
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: Okay, I think it's pronounced crypto. I think one unit
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: of crypto is acrypted.
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: No?
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: Is that not it? No? Okay, then I think I'm
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: off bigfoots a cryptied oh like bigfoot coin? Right, Okay,
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: that's it. Now you're caught it. I got it.
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: Okay, take me right, Uh Jim, what is the name
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: of Scotland's legendary lake Molts? Oh?
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: Oh oh oh nessie, Oh.
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I got it on the fly.
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, hell yeah, last name? Uh Smith?
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: No oh, Scotland. It's got to be a call of hanners. Yeah, okay,
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: that's whatever.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: They're all the same. Who cares all.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: Right, Jacob, the Yettie is most most associated with which
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: mountain rain?
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: Oh? Ship the Alps? I think? Oh, the German Ones?
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: The Swiss? Is that the Swiss Alps? I think it's
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: the Swiss Alps. Can I get a rebound if he's wrong?
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: Yes, you can.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: I think it's the Himalayas it is.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: Let's go. Okay, what's the capital of Portugal? Fuck all right, Jim,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: Which South American cryptid is rumored to drain live stocks?
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: Goat sucker, let's go, dude. I'm pretty good at this
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: crypto the rain many Yeah, I watch a lot of
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: like History Channel, but not the parts that are about
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: history UFOs and like, this ship's real. I don't think
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: they have a history part more.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: No, that's been gone for years.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: Yes, so the whatever the funk I'm watching is sponsored buyer,
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: created by the History Channel. It is just this ship.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: It's like that Aliens build Egypt, you know, And I'm
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: fucking deep into The answer is always yes, yes, yes, dude,
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: they did.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: They did.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: The pyramids aligned with the stars, man and the goat
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: thing is real. All the ship's real. These are not
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: nobody question boats were real or not? The goat sucker thing.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: It's our empire sucks on goats.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: Jacob which Harry Humanoid is the Canadian counterpart to Bigfoot.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: Oh, I know this one. It's a bigfoot. Ah yeah,
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: the mounty bigfoot. So there's a big big hat. I
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: believe it's big meter, flat brim hat, very polite bigfoot. Yeah,
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: he's the metrics. That's what I'm going. That's scoop meter foot.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: That's right, big big meter. They don't they don't do feet.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know. You want options? Sure, skunk ape yaowi,
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: sasquatch orange panadic. I've heard I've heard skunk ape. I've
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: heard those words said in that order before I'll go
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: scunk Cape.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: No, No, I'm gonna go Sasquatch.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: I just feel like that's the like if it's not
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: skump Cape, it's But the reason I know that is
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: because I have a there's a shampoo I buy from
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: Target called Sasquatch and he looks Canadian, and so my
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: brain is like, oh, yeah, that guy. I think there
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: might be a Canada flag on. It might be a
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: Canadian shampoo.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, an look like to you someone looks Canadian.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: What does a Canadian person look like to me Celine
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: Dion Justin Bieber. That's all I got. Oh, this is bullshit,
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: stun Cape. It is just a different cryptid. Ah, just
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: a different yeah, yeah, Okay, here we go.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: Last last, uh, last two, which cryptid from West Virginia
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: reportedly has glowing red eyes and large wings.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: Oh, go for it. The Mothman. Oh oh did you
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: ever see Mothman? Prophecies with Richard Gear scared the living
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: shit out of me. I'm pretty sure I did. Oh God,
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: it was so bad. It's like bad and scary.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: This one. I didn't know which. Pacific Northwest legend tells
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: of shape shifting, which often associated with coyotes or wolves.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: I think it's the skin walkers. And I've seen them.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: They're in Death Valley and I've fucking bumped into them
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: Death Valley and Valley of Fire. They're everywhere in fucking
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: Valley of Fire. Point of order. When Jim told the story,
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: originally he did not report having seen them. No, No,
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: they reported having heard them. I heard them. They tried
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: to talk. You said they were calling for a mother.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: There were no moms. It was all dudes. It was
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: a boy scout camp and they were calling mommy, and
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: it was clearly a fucking skinwalker trying to call me
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: out of my kid kill me.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna give you two points for getting it right
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: in the fly. I'm taking away a one point. Okay,
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: claiming to having heard one.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: Oh no, you're silly. No, this is real. But I
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: have seen one. I came home from the camp out
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: and told you, well, I don't know if I saw one,
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: but I mean that's how it works. I know if
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: you saw one, I don't know. No, if you see him,
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: I know if you was that a guy? Was it
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: a skinwalker like that child? Was it a kid who
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: needed help? I'll never have to know about it because
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: I did not get out of my part of the
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: newspapers the next day it was, which I think was
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: published by the skinwalker. It's all part of their propaganda. Dude,
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: you have no idea how high this goes, you pressed,
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: This is so deep, this goes all the way to
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: the top. Fucking skinwalkers are trying to get me out
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: of my tent. Not falling for it. I believe I
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: am in a commanding lead in this trivia challenge. You
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: just lost three points.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: Nope, losing Dion inherited Whitney's, which was likeative negative.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: I have a debt. You're almost right now you owe
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: me and both eight dollars. Losing desire in my marriage,
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: Hello pod therapy. I've come to realize, at the ripe
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: age of fifty five, that I am on the autism spectrum. Additionally,
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: I am postmenopausal. Not to make you uncomfortable, but I
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: think this is important information. I've been somewhat happily married
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: for nearly thirty years, except for the first year or so,
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: I've questioned what love really is. I don't have the
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: desire to be intimate physically or emotionally. I've always known
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: that this isn't normal, but being the people pleaser that
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: I have always been, I've tried to fake it the
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: best I can. Lately, I just can't fake it anymore.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: I've read that the decrease in estrogen and progesterone can
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: cause women to lose their desire to nurture. I'm not
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: sure if that is the case, and or I just
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: don't have the energy to mask and people please like
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: I have for the last fifty five years. No matter
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: the case, it's taking a serious toll on my marriage.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: He can't understand what is going on, and no explanation
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: on my part is getting through. I still love him,
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: whatever that means, and still like seeing him happy, but
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: he's clearly not. He keeps asking what he's done wrong,
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: and he can't accept that it is me, not him.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: I've offered to go to marriage counseling, which he doesn't
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: want to do, or divorce. I don't know what I'm
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: actually asking you for, but maybe just getting this off
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: my chest and hopes that others might get something out
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: of it. Thanks Anonymous, We get this question a lot. Yeah,
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: this one's interesting, I think because we've definitely over the
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: years had people say there's a disconnect with my desire
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: or my libido my marriage. You know, it's been thirty years.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: Things are changing where I think this letter is special
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: as I'm hearing the writer say, I am aware that
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: I am on the autistic spectrum, and throughout my life
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: I've sort of tried to mask or pretend not to be,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: and now I'm finally done pretending, so I'm letting a
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: genuine version of myself out. It turns out that version
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: of myself is not as engaged, emotional, and I'm postmenopausal,
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: there's hormonal changes. Maybe that's contributing to this. So I'm
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: kind of hearing the writer just sort of saying, like, look,
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: this is a weird spot for me because I do
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: care about this person, and in some ways I am
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: kind of indifferent, but in some ways like this is
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: organically my trae. Sex was never a real motivator, right,
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: you know, it just never was, And so it sounds
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: like the only thing that has changed is just the
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: desire to kind of fake that right, and emotional intimacy too.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: The writer does say a little bit of both, you
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: know that it's definitely not physical anymore, and also just
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: I'm good like and the writer I will saying like
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: I'm kind of detaching from the concept of love right now,
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: Like I'm not even sure what it means to be
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: in love with my person. I care for them and
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: I want them to be happy, but like I don't
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: have what they need from me. Man, if you don't
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: know what love is, listener, I've got good news for
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: you about a lot of music in the eighties. Oh help,
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: you can go down a really deep rabbit hole about this.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: What is love?
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: Need you to show me?
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: I think this could just be the whole episode. I
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: think we just break into songs.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: Do we have a drum set? This is true, and
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: a keyboard, if synth, if we just had one person
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: who knew how to play it.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: I mean I got one beat in me.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: I could just I don't even have that. Yeah, this
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: is a tough one, and I mean from your partner's perspective,
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: you know, it is difficult to be that partner because
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: anybody who's hearing this is gonna to some level internalize it,
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: right and think about like, Okay, well what am I
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: doing wrong? It's like, well, it's not It's not you.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: It's I'm going through all of these things. Okay, but
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: you could be going through all these things. If I
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: was a better person, maybe I would be doing something.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: Maybe maybe it wouldn't be like this, or you know,
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: did did I contribute to this? Ever? And this I
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: think is just a normal human reaction. Right when event happens,
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: we internalize, cause sure, so like what did I do
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: to create this thing to happen?
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: And fundamentally we're in a relationship, right and so like
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: if your dynamic toward me and your interest in me
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: has changed, it is not crazy for me to into it.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: I've contributed to this equation somehow, like so I've gotten
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: too old for you, or our dynamic has changed or whatever.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: And it's really tough because, like, you know, whether autism
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: is part of this, whether post menopausal is part of this,
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: is just an extremely relatable phenomenon that a lot of
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: people as they age will talk about losing libido. I
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: think that's very you know, par for the course, but
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: also sometimes feeling emotionally distant. I mean, I was, I
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: was looking at a statistic the other day and I
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: didn't confirm this data, but I was talking to another
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: therapist who was sort of quoting it at me. And
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: then it says something the effect of like seventy percent
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: of divorces after age forty are initiated by women, and
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: like the logic of that being that as women kind
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: of age, some of their hormonal shifts and some of
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: their life changes, just becoming increasingly independent and sort of like,
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: you know, I like you fine, but like I don't
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: need you in my life. I kind of create my
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: own social space, like you're just around, you know, and
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: like at some point kind of detaching a little bit.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: And the writer says maybe I'm losing my nurturing, and
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: like there's some of those like bonds are just kind
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: of they deteriorate, and a lot of women become very
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: independent and sort of say, like, for one reason or another,
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: I think I'm just drifting away from my partner. And
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: you know, for a lot of those men, that's scary,
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: you know, like, oh no, I'm losing my partner.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: What's going on?
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: Is it me? Can I make it right? And of
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: course that your partner's going to have irritable things they
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: want to say, like yeah, I wish you'd do the
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: dishes more. You know, I don't like this or you know,
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: I don't like you say this to me, but like
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: it is an organic reality, and I guess I just
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: want to like refer to that data a little bit
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: to normalize what the writer's going through. But that doesn't
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: make it easier, right, and doesn't make this dynamic easier.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: I love that the writer's bringing up couple's therapy. I
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: think it's tough, but par for the course that the
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: writer said, do you want to talk about divorce? And
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: husband's like I don't and I don't want to go
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: to couple's therapy. I just want to fix this, like
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: I want to know why, what I can do to
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: make you like me again? And yeah, you know it's
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: tough too, because like I think, at best we teach
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: spouse through psycho education, let's maybe teach you about autism, right, Like,
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: it turns out you've been married to autism this whole time.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: This person is just now figuring this out about themselves.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: They finally discovered the language, they finally figured out the symptoms,
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: and there's going to be things about them that they
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: didn't hide from you that you've sort of known about
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: them all along, that you thought were just interesting, little
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: quirky personality traits. And now when we tell you what
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: autism is, you go, oh, yeah, okay, that's her. Yep,
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: that's definitely her to some extent. Well, other manifestations of
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: that can also look like this, And like this is
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: where maybe that was hidden from me because it had
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: more to do with your dynamic and your relationship. And
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: now this person's not hiding it. But it's an interesting thing, Nick,
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: because it kind of opens up this question and I
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: think we've kind of wrestled with this on the show
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: before that, Like our mental health realities are complex and
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: we also want to be mindful of how they do
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: affect our relationships, because relationships have intrinsic value, and like
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: we do want us to negotiate that space. And that's
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: tricky because on one hand, I think there's a desire
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: to let people be authentic and not have the mask.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: I think that's a phrase that's been used a lot
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: with autism and with ADHD and neurodiversity. Is people feeling
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: that they have to ape and pretend to be like
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: the normies when that's just not their truth, and it
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: becomes very draining and hurtful over time. And so on
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: one hand, we want people to be authentic, but on
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: the other hand, we don't want them to detonate all
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: their relationships raising this flag of individualism, because there's there's
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: got to be room too for your human ecosystem, and
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: like all of us are compromising with our human ecosystem
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: all the time. Like I don't want to be a dad.
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I don't want to, you know, go to this
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: kid's game or whatever, Like I want to go just
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: do my own thing. And like I'm compromising my authentic
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 1: needs in my authentic self to be a good father
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: because being a good father means something to me, and
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: their happiness means something to me. And you could say, well,
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: you're faking it, Jim, that's not healthy for you. And
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: I'd be open to talking through that. I'd be open
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: to finding moderation between both of those values that are
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: very important to me. I want to be authentic. I
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: don't want to mask. I don't want to be forced
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: as a square peg into a round hole. But at
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: the same time, I don't want to abandon and I
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: don't want to like discard the needs of my loved
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: ones who need me to be certain things in their life.
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: And I don't necessarily feel that it's bad or wrong.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: Does that make sense?
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, it does, and it does. It's to some degree,
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: there's no avoiding that. Like everybody has to wrestle with
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: that to some to some degree, because I mean, now
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: you think about things like, you know, if Laura is
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: inviting me someplace. You know she's got friends in town, right,
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: and so they're all going to go out, and they're
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: all bringing their husbands. So I should go with they're
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: going to go do something that I have no interest
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: in doing.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: And you're like, hey, I'm an introvert. I don't do
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: this kind of stuff. I don't want to go in.
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: I don't want to do this thing that they want
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 2: to do. Okay, but I want her to have a
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: good time, right, And I know that if I go
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: there and just act like a total diva, yes, you
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: know that she's not going to have a good time.
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 2: And I'm gonna I could. I could ruin this, right.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: So for me, it's not necessarily about me pretending to
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: be somebody else. What it is is it's me doing
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: what I need to do so that she enjoys the experience.
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: I love how you're phrasing that. I almost would add
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: to that, it's not so much faking, it's finding a
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: version of me because I live on a very broad spectrum.
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: There are colors in my palette that look introversied, introverted
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: and anxious and garrett and shy. There's colors of my
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: palette that's the guy up on stage speaking at a conference.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: I can summon different versions of myself to hopefully adapt
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: to the people I love in the situation and its requirements.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: I may not be able to do that indefinitely, but
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: like hopefully I can enough to maintain those relationships kind
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: of like everything.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 2: Every Sunday night, Jacob taps into a version of himself
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: that gives a shit about this podcast.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: He's doing it what deep deep in his soul. He's
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: locking the door, he's turning off the lights.
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: But no, yeah, I think that is a better way
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: of putting that. I think is just to be like, okay, yeah,
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: there's yeah, there's a version of me that just enjoys
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: spending time with her and her friends. Right tonight, I'm
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: going to be that person.
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: I'm going to find that part. And I really I
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: resonate with the writer because I've I've definitely talked to
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: people over the years, especially as we've learned so much
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: more about neurodiversity. And you know, this writer's saying, look,
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: I'm fifty five years old. This is an interesting generation
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: to be because I feel like young people today were
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: introducing them to this conversation of what is autism spectrum,
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 1: what is ADHD at a much younger age, and we've
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: created a lot more public education about that in schools.
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: We've learned how to identify it in females, especially the
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: writer identifies as female, whereas that generation girls did not
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: get any of that language. And when it finally showed
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: up autism, and like neurodiversity, the field struggled forever to
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: like discuss this, categorize this name this even autism spectrum
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: disorders relatively new in our nomenclature. I mean, what was
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: the phrase we used to use for like high functioning
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: autism just jumped out of my head, Aspergers. Yeah, for
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: the longest that was our diet autism diagnosis, right, and
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: it was almost predominantly men or boys that would be
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: diagnosed with that. We just missed all these female features
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: of this neurodiversity. And so I just I appreciate for
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: the writer at five years old. This person has always
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: been who they are and is only now, probably in
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: this more recent era of time, discovering the words and
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: the education to finally look in the mirror and say
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: that's what I am. Oh, my goodness, and then learning
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: from that community. Hey, people in our community, people like us,
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: we tend to do these things to survive in this world.
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: It's exhausting. And if you've ever struggled in these ways,
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: we relate to you. And I can appreciate that the
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: writers look at that going fuck, yes, yes, yes I have,
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: and I get that there's this sense of like, I'm
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: tired of being put upon. I'm tired of other people's needs.
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: I'm tired of being like having to live my life
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: in this fake and in authentic way that everybody else
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: matters all the time. So I just I want to
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 1: honor that emotional exhaustion while also honoring You've invested three
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: decades of your life building a relationship with somebody. You
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: have a shared history, you probably have a shared family,
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: you have a shared future if you want it. There's
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: hopefully room to get into that middle space with them,
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: because they're not your enemy. Right it sounds like your
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: husband's crime is that he loves you and he wants
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: to be close to you, And you know, I don't
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: want to villainize that. I don't think you're villainizing that.
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: I think you're just exhausted. I think you're emotionally exhausted.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: You're try it, You're tired of putting on the makeup
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: and trying to pretend. But at the same time, I
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: think we have to at least allow your husband to
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: meet the new version of you, the unmasked version of you,
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: to clarify these misunderstandings. Hopefully. I mean I wish he
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: would talk to the therapist with you and do marriage counseling.
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: That would be a great space to teach him about this,
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: if you're willing to teach him, Writer, if he's open
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: to learning more about this with you. There are books
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: you know that are out there that are four friends
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: and family members and spouses of those who are neurodivergent
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: to try to like give them education and tips. Maybe
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: that kind of stuff would be helpful. And Writer, you
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: kind of unburdened us at the end of your question
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: and said, look, guys, I'm not expecting to pull a
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: rabbit out of your hat and tell me it's one
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: weird trick. And hopefully we're chewing it with you enough
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: and relating on it with you that you know we're
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: normalizing this and at least, you know, normalizing your experience
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: and giving you some honest feedback. But I'm glad to
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: see that you're not just hitting the eject button and
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: running away. I've seen people do that, and they yearn
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 1: for it because they feel like it's going to liberate
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: them and like they're somehow finally acknowledging who they really are.
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: More times than not, when I see people take that path,
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: I see it, it ends up being a manifestation of
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: like self sabotage. It doesn't end up being what they
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: really wanted. It just kind of is this deep inner
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: yearning and confusion. And I kind of want them to
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: like talk through that, like in therapy, and just navigate
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: that water change other things in their lives, you know,
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: other knobs and dials need to turn before they just
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: newke relationships, especially long ones like this. Yeah, but hey,
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 1: there's also such thing as authentic truth, and there's there's
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: a time when some people wake up thirty years in
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: and say, you know what, I've realized I don't be
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: married anymore, and like I just legitimately don't want that.
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: It's like, okay, just proceed with caution, a lot of deliberation,
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 1: a lot of intentional measure during a lot of thinking
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: through it, and a lot of discussion with your partner.
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: I guess those are the only tips I really have.
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I would just echo those same tips.
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: Just the tip I think we're trying to say, just
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: the tips, several tips. That's that's always the solution for
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: your problems. We're at take one last break, and when
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: we come back, we are wrapping up the show. You
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: are listening to pod Therapy today.
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 2: It was brought to you by Junior Schneider, Lep, Carolyn Albert, Sammy's,
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 2: Sarah Smith, Mike Heldarren Cunningham, Tody the Glorian Guy Brady,
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 2: and Max the Genter Scoop. We gonna like to sponsor
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 2: the show and become a Thera producer Patreon dot com.
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: So, Nick, I don't know if you know this, and
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 1: I don't want to make you jealous, but when I
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: got here, Jacob has given me gifts. Jacob's actually been
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: saving his newspapers because the other day I asked him
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: if I could have the one I found on his driveway,
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: And so now he's just saving the Sunday editions. You
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: know it's Sunday today, right, Yeah, but there's two of them, right,
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: one from last week and so the second one right,
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: just saving them for me. Well, I've taken the one
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: from last week and put it in that chair. Yes,
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 1: and then I did the same thing this week. And
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: I'm flattered. I'm honored. I receive this the way you
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 1: want me to, good as a gift of our friendship.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: And uh and just really I feel a lot closer
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: to you and got off the rails a little bit there.
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: But I'm glad you received it the way I think.
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: I think we're on the same exactly right. I think
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: we're you know, obviously we're going to get an apartment together,
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: and uh, and I'm.
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 2: Excited for it, you know, just not jealous at all.
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you shouldn't be, because I think you just have
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: to understand you can't compete, you know, like just there's
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: no newspapers for you.
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 2: I've stopped trying.
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: These are for me.
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know that the two of you have something special.
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: So you're happy for us? Yes, you know, like that's
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: that's good friend. You're very mature of you, man, just
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: taking the high road. You're a class act. You you
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: can be my best man. As we wrap up the show,
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: we want to remind you that you can sign up
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: at patreon dot com slash therapy and you can get
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: our extended show ad free a day earlier, as well
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: as enjoy our live chat, discord community and our spontaneous
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: deep dives, interview, skill shares, research roundups and rants and
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: do we have anybody to welcome to that?
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 2: Actually, that didn't make it into the script. For reasons
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 2: I won't get into. Uh. Scoop Lindsay became a therapal
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: than you. Thank you, Scoop Lindsay. We also have let.
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 4: Me scroll scroll scroll, Let's see Kyle Sharton yay aarrapod.
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 4: Welcome all right, Kyle, Scroll scroll scroll Andrew carmidel ah Andre.
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: He was what they call him, so thank you for joining.
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: Having the new friends. And we'd like to thank the benevolent, revered, generous,
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: and flagrantly pro therapy diehards who love you all so much.
• 1:22:48
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• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: and Picket, And we want to thank our bosses, the
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: mysterious and shrouded Illuminati members of the fan club that
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: they're producers. Thank you, Jake Schneider, Myra, Robert Brownie, Junior Mint,
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: Smitty's Scoop, Richard Fucking Macy, Judy Schneider, Malia, Leon Cassab,
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: Carol and Albert, Kevin Chamberlin, Tess Miller, Dan Martin, Sammy
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 1: Scoop Slerpekai motherfucker fuck you, Slurpy ruining my goddamn fantasy
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: football draft, Ben Stanley, slapping your face, Sarah Smith, Adam
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 1: Hathaway biler T, Mike helm, Uskar, Swan Rose, paris A,
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: Sonny Boy, Darren Cunningham, Libs, Sandra mcwaffle, Team Monaco, Thunder Cougar, Falcon, Scoop,
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 1: Heyo Hanna, Marie Andrew Langmead, Emma Tonka and Pony Soprano
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: Alina Cody, the Louring Guy, Brady Malay, Chick Chick, Filatio
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: gabriel A, Dame, Shawn Sutherland, Max the Ginger, Scoop, Chad
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: mag Adam Warren, Unca, Laprice or Inca who gives a shit?
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 1: Sam cone Ba do crimes.
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: Uh And if you were like to this episode uncut
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: and unedited would and enjoy our spontaneous side projects. Go
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 2: to patreon dot com slash therapy and thank you for
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 2: supporting mental health.
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: Well that's all the time. We good for this week's session.
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 1: We want to thank our landlords, s J and the
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: Rockiescoy Pond Studio, and thanks to all of you contributed
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: to our show today. We really appreciate it. And a
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: remember pot Therapy is and something to keep all of yourself.
• 1:24:02
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• 1:24:05
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• 1:24:07
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• 1:24:14
  Speaker 2: If you want to spit a question on the show,
• 1:24:16
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• 1:24:19
  Speaker 2: email us at pod therapy guys at gmail dot com,
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: or click the link on the episode description. I'm Ni
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 2: tange man, I'm Jim. Thanks you for your appointment. Portugal.
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: So it's in Europe, right, Portugal?
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, as Jim learned today, it is.
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: I did during the fantasy draft. Yeah, they asked me
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 1: what was closer, Portugal or Ireland or something like that,
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 1: and uh yeah, it took me a beat because I
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: thought Portugal was in South America. Do Portugal and Ireland
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: share a border? So they're all in Europe? So I
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 1: assume that I mean no, right, because oh no, Ireland's
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: a dud island. Yeah, look at it. I'm getting it, boys.
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: I got this to Jim dozing. We are in the
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 1: country older than this wouldn't have done. Don't know funk
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 1: all about. That's where the beer comes from and the whiskeys. Goodbye, everybody, goodbye,