Latest / Bro-ing Pains / Are You Investing or Gambling? | Day Trading, Sports Betting & the New Gambling Economy

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Are You Investing or Gambling? | Day Trading, Sports Betting & the New Gambling Economy · Bro-ing Pains

0:00
SPEAKER_01: The fact that you think that you're winning is laughable.
0:04
SPEAKER_01: It really is.
0:05
SPEAKER_01: Because you're not.
0:06
SPEAKER_01: You're not winning.
0:07
SPEAKER_01: They are playing you like a fiddle.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: What's up, world?
0:12
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Browing Pains, where we have the conversations that live somewhere between your therapist's office and the group chat.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: I'm Carlos, theater kid turned self-proclaimed corporate paper.
0:25
SPEAKER_01: And I'm Chad, a licensed marriage and family therapist, but my friends call me Papa Chad.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: Whether you're emotionally avoidant, anxious, or just straight up awkward, pull up a chair, make yourself comfortable, you're in the right place.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: Quick reminder: this podcast is not a substitute for professional mental health care.
0:44
SPEAKER_01: If you're struggling or know someone who is, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: Turn my snare up.
0:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm good.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: Don't get shy now, motherfucker.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: You had a lot to say before we started recording.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, hi everyone.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: Welcome back, everybody.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: Broling Pains, season two, episode five.
1:11
SPEAKER_00: Today we're gonna be discussing problem gambling.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: With mobile gambling apps like DraftKings, FanDuel, online casinos, gambling isn't something you have to go looking for anymore.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: It's already in your pocket.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: With sports betting apps now living on our phones and celebrities openly endorsing them.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: We're looking at you, Kevin Hart.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: Gambling has never been more accessible or more normalized.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: But for many men, it's not just entertainment, it's escape.
1:41
SPEAKER_00: This week, we're unpacking why modern gambling has become a go-to coping mechanism and what men are really trying to cope with when they place that next bet.
1:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people, when they think of problem gamblers, they think of uh people smoking a cigarette and uh going to the casino gambling, but now I mean the modern day gambling is is a lot more than just uh playing cards at your local card room.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: So in the video that I saw before this, it was it was talking about how young men specifically like in their 20s are more more you know susceptible or more prone to like fall into this.
2:21
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, yeah, no shit.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: They're fucking like frontal lobe is not fully developed yet.
2:26
SPEAKER_01: Like if it makes sense.
2:27
SPEAKER_01: Well, that and like these are you're supposed to be your like biggest earning years, you know, your highest earning potential.
2:34
SPEAKER_01: This is the time to set yourself up for higher earning potentials, right?
2:39
SPEAKER_01: If you want to be able to have like financial security in the long run, like you know, they also always say start investing early and you know, invest in your IRAs when you're 20 and all this stuff, and no one does, but in this economy, how is that possible?
2:56
SPEAKER_01: I know, unless you make and bank.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: But all right, I think we should we should get into our vignette.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: So we present to you vignette number 003.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: One more trade.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: Problem gambling.
3:19
SPEAKER_01: All right, um Adrian is 34 and has been dating Marcus for four months.
3:27
SPEAKER_01: Marcus is steady, emotionally intelligent, and clear that he wants something long term.
3:33
SPEAKER_01: Adrian really likes him, which makes what he's hiding feel heavier.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: Adrian doesn't think he has a gambling problem.
3:42
SPEAKER_01: He doesn't go to Vegas, he has a job, he pays his bills, he happens to day trade.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: This is investing.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: But he also feels behind, behind the couples with renovated kitchens and European vacations, behind the men in his circle who seem secure, impressive, and settled, behind the version of himself he thought he'd be by now.
4:07
SPEAKER_01: In the quiet moments, a word surfaces, underwhelming.
4:12
SPEAKER_01: About a year ago, he started day trading.
4:14
SPEAKER_01: The first time he made$7,000 in a week, he didn't celebrate, he exhaled.
4:21
SPEAKER_01: It felt like proof he wasn't stuck, proof he could still become someone exceptional.
4:28
SPEAKER_01: Now his mornings start with charts before coffee.
4:32
SPEAKER_01: He keeps a separate brokerage account hidden on his phone.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: He tells himself he's not hiding anymore.
4:38
SPEAKER_01: He's just waiting, waiting until the numbers look impressive, waiting until the story ends in success.
4:45
SPEAKER_01: When he's up, he's confident, expansive, talking about their future.
4:50
SPEAKER_01: When he's down, he withdraws.
4:53
SPEAKER_01: Marcus has started saying, You're not really here sometimes.
4:57
SPEAKER_01: Two months ago, Adrian lost$24,000 in 10 days.
5:03
SPEAKER_01: He couldn't sleep.
5:04
SPEAKER_01: He moved money from savings and wired more in.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: He doesn't think he's addicted, he thinks he's trying to catch up, trying to become someone worthy of the life he imagined and the relationship he's in now.
5:19
SPEAKER_01: He just needs one more win, then he can finally relax.
5:33
SPEAKER_00: I think the the first thing that comes to mind for me is just how little I know about day trading and and gambling and things like that.
5:43
SPEAKER_00: But I I I I do want to start by saying one of the biggest takeaways in doing this whole series around covert male depression it's it's not about the the addiction, right?
5:57
SPEAKER_00: Like we've talked about several times now that you can fill in the blank.
6:01
SPEAKER_00: It's not just about like where is that line, but it's more about the the other, like what what is underneath and the the emotions underneath that and and like what are you trying to hide?
6:12
SPEAKER_00: What are you trying to run away from?
6:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and like I think a lot of us can relate to the feeling that's underneath with Adrian here is like this this feeling that you're behind.
6:23
SPEAKER_01: I mean, when you look at where our parents were at our ages, right?
6:28
SPEAKER_01: Like it it feels like they were a lot farther along, like they bought a house already.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: They they have careers that they're making, you know, they're investing in their 401ks.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: And well.
6:41
SPEAKER_01: Maybe not.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: Maybe not everybody.
6:43
SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's a pretty pro privileged thing for me to say.
6:49
SPEAKER_00: I would agree that my my uh parents were further along and that they had four kids by the age of like 32.
6:56
SPEAKER_00: Right.
6:57
SPEAKER_00: But definitely not a not a 401k.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: Just like, yeah, retirement definitely for at least at least for me growing up.
7:05
SPEAKER_01: I'm definitely I know my parents were, you know, do doing okay.
7:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean, money was stressful and things like that.
7:10
SPEAKER_01: They were both working at Safeway, you know, and like trying to make it work with two young babies and in their early 20s.
7:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, I mean, they had bought a house, they I mean, with some help obviously from family, but you know, they they just felt like a lot more farther off than when where I was when I was in my early 20s.
7:27
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, shit, you know, I'm I'm behind.
7:31
SPEAKER_01: And so I think this guy and and a lot of guys are are looking at that and and seeing, you know, Instagram and and uh people going on trips and you know living their best lives and just thinking like you're not enough and you're behind.
7:47
SPEAKER_00: I think another sort of common theme that we're seeing here is that it's it's a a secret.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: Adrian is hiding from his partner.
7:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: But it's like, why?
7:58
SPEAKER_00: Like if if it's truly not a problem, Adrian, why are you hiding?
8:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe maybe he doesn't feel like it's a problem, but maybe it's not uh a green flag.
8:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you're dating somebody, would you would you want to know if they're day trading and and spending and making and losing money back and forth between weeks and weeks?
8:19
SPEAKER_01: Like would that be, you know, and you and you're the one sitting there trying to have a long-term, you know, secure relationship, like that would be unattractive to you.
8:27
SPEAKER_01: Um I assume.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
8:29
SPEAKER_01: Would it be?
8:30
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
8:30
SPEAKER_00: I guess in my head, day trading seems like uh a good thing, I guess, or or like it's it's um lucrative, you know, but I I don't know, I don't know the logistics behind that.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: Something that you said earlier is is that you've heard you've heard often in the room where men try to convince themselves that day trading is investing, or or it's it's not the same thing as um gambling.
8:57
SPEAKER_01: This is the same thing that we've talked about in other episodes where like, oh, like you know, smoking weed's not a problem, just taking the edge off.
9:03
SPEAKER_01: Like it's it's just the same thing, just like you alluded to earlier on.
9:07
SPEAKER_01: But for those of you who don't know, I'm uh so this past year I got trained with the state of California to be a certified problem gambler uh provider.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: So if you call 1-800 gambler and you live in the Sacrament area or you're looking for virtual services, I am available to see them.
9:26
SPEAKER_01: And these are actually services free of charge.
9:28
SPEAKER_01: Uh the state of California pays the providers to be able to give um, you know, counseling services for people who are really in trouble situations.
9:37
SPEAKER_01: And on the progress notes that you have to you have to fill out these forms every single session because they do research on this to be able to, and then that research helps inform public policy on there on every single note.
9:51
SPEAKER_01: It says, you know, how many days has it been your last bet, and then what types of bets?
9:56
SPEAKER_01: And day trading is is on there.
9:59
SPEAKER_01: And so like I I had the same thing.
10:01
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm like, oh, it's just an investment account.
10:03
SPEAKER_01: What do you mean?
10:04
SPEAKER_01: And no, from what I hear happen, is people then try to start to convince themselves that they can get an edge on the market and say, no, I I know if a certain investment account is gonna go up or down today.
10:19
SPEAKER_01: And they try to convince themselves that that's the truth.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: And for those of you who've watched Wolf of Wall Street, no one knows if the stock market's gonna go up, down, sideways, or in circles, right?
10:30
SPEAKER_01: And so that's why it is considered, at least through the state of California, it is considered problem gambling because you're essentially gambling your money on a daily basis to see if the stock's gonna hit or not.
10:42
SPEAKER_01: And so to me, that's really scary, especially if you're you know, like Adrian here and losing$18,000 in 10 days.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: I mean$24,000.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: Bitch, that's a brand new car.
10:54
SPEAKER_01: That's a couple use cars.
10:56
SPEAKER_01: Like, that's a that's a couple use cars for your family, bro.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: Like, that's crazy, man.
11:02
SPEAKER_01: And like, like you said, like some people are looking at other people and they're and they're very successful, and they're thinking that there's a reason for that.
11:09
SPEAKER_01: Like they're just smarter than everybody else.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: And and maybe they are, like you said, I don't really know too much about it either.
11:15
SPEAKER_01: I mean, maybe maybe I'm dumb and naive, and if you really did study, you wouldn't know the markets.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: But again, you no one knows if the next 9-11 is gonna happen, right?
11:24
SPEAKER_01: Like, except the government.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: I'm kidding.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm kidding.
11:28
SPEAKER_01: That's a different podcast, sir.
11:31
SPEAKER_01: Conspiracy theories with Carlos.
11:35
SPEAKER_00: I think it's important to note that it's it's like well, okay.
11:41
SPEAKER_00: This this this right here feels like a justification for for for gambling or whatever, but it's like it doesn't affect some people as much, right?
11:53
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm I'm thinking about the ones that are really privileged that have this sort of extra income so that they can they can do whatever the fuck they want to with it.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: And so like they can they can afford to lose$24,000 and it doesn't affect them, you know.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: How many people though are are we talking about with that?
12:11
SPEAKER_01: It's the 1%, right?
12:12
SPEAKER_01: It's what I'm saying.
12:13
SPEAKER_01: You're 34 years old and you're dating and you're single.
12:16
SPEAKER_01: You tell me you got you know$24,000 of expendable income, right?
12:22
SPEAKER_01: It's like it's the same thing we tell people when you go to the casino, like bet how much money you're willing to lose, right?
12:28
SPEAKER_01: Like that's and I don't have a problem with people going gambling.
12:31
SPEAKER_01: Like, go gambling's entertainment, just like anything else.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: It's like spending money to go to the movie theater, right?
12:36
SPEAKER_00: Like is it though I personally don't see the entertainment value in gambling.
12:44
SPEAKER_00: Thinking about this modern gambling with like the sports apps or whatever, like sports betting apps.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: It's I'm assuming I've never used it.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, like I of course I've I've seen the commercials as we all have seen.
12:58
SPEAKER_00: Right.
12:58
SPEAKER_00: They make it seem really enticing and really exciting to, you know, to be a part of.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: Like they have all these celebrities on there.
13:05
SPEAKER_00: But like, I don't know.
13:07
SPEAKER_00: At the end of the day, I think where I'm coming from, there's a a lot of fear in in the unknown, right?
13:14
SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know what's on the other side of that.
13:16
SPEAKER_00: And like, am I gonna fucking lose all my money?
13:19
SPEAKER_00: I can't afford to lose all my money, you know?
13:21
SPEAKER_01: Like, some people say that they can't afford to not make more money.
13:26
SPEAKER_01: Like it's it's on the opposite end, is like I I need to level up.
13:31
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm so depressed and alone and feeling like if I had more money, I could get the next, you know, hot guy to want to date me or something.
13:42
SPEAKER_01: You know, if I rolled up in a nicer car, then I would be enough.
13:47
SPEAKER_01: And so it all comes back again to this idea of of of the covert depression.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: It's just if you would feel more secure in yourself, you wouldn't feel this urge to want to or need to level up, right?
14:00
SPEAKER_01: But I totally hear you on the like you don't see the appeal.
14:04
SPEAKER_01: I mean, one of the appeals that I'm feeling is just this like thrill of it, you know, like we get into our monotony of life and just having, you know, just the corporate nine to five and coming home and going to the gym at seven o'clock like everybody else, and not able to have a barbell, and um, you know, or just it's just busy and it's boring.
14:29
SPEAKER_01: Next thing you know, you can go home and you're watching, you know, Friday night NBA basketball, and you can bet in the second quarter how many points Steph Curry is gonna drop, and maybe you can make 50 bucks off of that.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: That's why I'm saying like the appeal for me is the thrill of it.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I've actually never sports bet, which is surprising because I love sports.
14:51
SPEAKER_01: But um Why don't you?
14:53
SPEAKER_01: Because I ain't got the money like that.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't like I mean we do okay, you know, we're do we we're we're totally fine, but it's just like I I don't have the expendable income to bet, you know, from a monthly basis on sports.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: So if you did, would you?
15:10
SPEAKER_01: That's a good question.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: I don't think my wife would would be okay with that.
15:18
SPEAKER_01: But if I was single and I don't know, I was making a decent amount of money, I probably would.
15:25
SPEAKER_01: I've been to casinos before.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: When I was in college, actually, there was uh Jackson Rancheria out here in like um Amador County, I think.
15:35
SPEAKER_01: At the time, it was an 18 and up casino.
15:39
SPEAKER_01: So me and my roommate, we and my brother, we would actually go like, I don't know, every like three or four months or something, and just like say, like, we're gonna take out$100 and just if we lose it, we lose it, and then we'll go home.
15:52
SPEAKER_01: And just for entertainment, and it was it was pretty fun.
15:55
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that that's why I call it entertainment because it was like, you know, it's exciting.
15:58
SPEAKER_01: It's like, am I gonna win?
15:59
SPEAKER_01: Do I double down on this blackjack hand?
16:02
SPEAKER_01: It's fun, but you know, we put limits on it to make sure we're not losing a bunch of money.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: Right.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that I mean, smart.
16:10
SPEAKER_00: I think having a tactic going in is is probably for the best, you know?
16:16
SPEAKER_00: Having boundaries for yourself.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and doing it with like friends, right?
16:20
SPEAKER_01: Like I went with my roommate and my brother, and like in and make it a social thing.
16:24
SPEAKER_01: I think that's cool too, right?
16:25
SPEAKER_01: It's just you know, this thing where like you're by yourself and you're going to the casino and you're smoking cigarettes, just chain smoking.
16:35
SPEAKER_01: Like, come on, man.
16:36
SPEAKER_01: You're not you're not having fun there.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: It's not entertainment.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: That's uh that's dreadful.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: That's it is sad.
16:44
SPEAKER_00: It is sad to think about how far someone is willing to go to like risk it all, you know, and there's a lot of risk involved, but I think that that ties into the the dopamine that people get from you know from the the thrill of it all.
17:02
SPEAKER_00: Something that stood out to me in in watching that video basically the the whole point of the the that video was saying that the the near wins it gives you the same feeling, is the same effect that winning does.
17:17
SPEAKER_00: And so these games are set up to give you like more near wins than actual wins.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: It's meant to keep you hooked and keep you engaged.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the game manufacturers design it that way.
17:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, my training that they did, they talked exactly about this.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: So you're a hundred percent correct, and a couple of things happen with that on a psychology lens.
17:40
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so the the reason why the game is creating and manufacturing near wins is because it creates two different false narratives in our heads, one of which is the hot hand fallacy.
17:54
SPEAKER_00: Sounds sexual, I like it.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: I want to feel your hot hand.
18:01
SPEAKER_01: But but I I uh I first learned about it from basketball, right?
18:06
SPEAKER_01: So if if someone has a hot hand, that means they they're they've made like three threes in a row.
18:12
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, okay, fee like give him the ball again because he's you making them all in right now.
18:17
SPEAKER_01: But that's technically not true.
18:19
SPEAKER_01: When when you shoot, it's not a guarantee just because you've hit three threes before that that you're gonna hit another three, right?
18:28
SPEAKER_01: And so there's the same hot hand fallacy of like, let's say I won a couple bets.
18:32
SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, I'm on, I'm on a streak.
18:34
SPEAKER_01: I'm on a streak right now, right?
18:36
SPEAKER_01: Or the other one that I really think is interesting is I'm due.
18:41
SPEAKER_01: Like I've lost so much money, like I have to win eventually, right?
18:46
SPEAKER_01: And so it's all these like cognitive reframes that you justify in your head to keep going.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: And these games are designed to create those feelings and sensations in our bodies.
19:01
SPEAKER_01: That is the broing pains, right?
19:03
SPEAKER_01: There is that you think that you're actually doing something.
19:06
SPEAKER_01: You're doing something.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: Right.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: But they they are playing you like a fiddle.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: And the fact that you think that you're winning is laughable.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: It really is.
19:17
SPEAKER_01: Because you're not, you're not winning.
19:20
SPEAKER_01: And I wish I I wish we could find an edge, right?
19:22
SPEAKER_01: Maybe I don't know, maybe you'll find the next the next way to win.
19:26
SPEAKER_01: But um it's sad that these companies are allowed to manipulate the public like that.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: That's like from like a public health perspective.
19:35
SPEAKER_01: I when I started learning more about gambling and and how these games are designed to, you know, fuck with us psychologically.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm like, how is this even legal?
19:45
SPEAKER_01: Like, how how are people allowed to do this to the public?
19:49
SPEAKER_01: People are losing their life savings over this, and you're just making money hand over fist.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: Like, that's just corporate greed at its finest, and it's not okay.
19:58
SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
19:59
SPEAKER_00: That's that was something else that you mentioned earlier about the the this sort of corporate culture that happens of like it's investing, and and it it's it just like ends up being this sort of toxic behavior at the end of the day.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: Like you're always striving for more, striving for for bigger, for better.
20:19
SPEAKER_00: There's never a sense of peace, it feels like.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: A good example that I have with that, and people I think logically, when they sit down and they talk about, you know, what's what's more important in life?
20:32
SPEAKER_01: Like, is it your stuff or is it your family or whatever?
20:35
SPEAKER_01: And everyone is willing to give up that.
20:38
SPEAKER_01: Like I do this thing.
20:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, one of my supervisors, when I was training, um, it's like a guided meditation.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: She calls it the suitcase experiment.
20:46
SPEAKER_01: Essentially, long story short, is I have people kind of close their eyes in session, and this is really to find out like where your self-worth lies.
20:56
SPEAKER_01: And so I have them imagine that they're in a room and there's these two magical suitcases that are laid out in front of you.
21:04
SPEAKER_01: And they're magical bottomless suitcases.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: And I have them go over and touch them and you know, figure out what fabric they are and really sync themselves into that room.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: And I say, put everything essentially that you own to your name in the left suitcase.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: So, like your car, your house, your hats, your glasses, literally naming everything I have on.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: Headphones, microphones, real creative chap.
21:30
SPEAKER_01: Put all of that stuff in there.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: And then um, and then the right suitcase, uh, you know, put everything else that makes you you.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: So your personality, your sense of humor, your dreams, your hopes.
21:46
SPEAKER_01: That's fat ass.
21:48
SPEAKER_01: Your body.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: I tell people to put your the last that's the last thing I do is to put your dump truck in in the to put that into the Suitcase, you know, your family, your loved ones, all those people.
22:02
SPEAKER_01: And I close them up and I ask them what's left.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: And essentially, you're trying to be able to say, like, you are not these things, even the even those family members, right?
22:11
SPEAKER_01: Like you, you are not defined by the people that love you or things like that.
22:14
SPEAKER_01: Like, what is left is still your humanity.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: But every time I ask people how that was, they all say, every single one always says, Oh, yeah, the left suitcase, that was easy.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: That was easy.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: But yet, we are all so like pulled and pulled in these directions of wanting to increase what's what we would put in that theoretical left suitcase.
22:35
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, that's why I say that you have to be really intentional about where you spend your time and your money.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: And you're not doing this by you know, leveling up, you know, or getting the next best car or the newest iPhone.
22:52
SPEAKER_01: It's uh those things really don't matter.
22:54
SPEAKER_01: When when we all sit down and think about it, everybody would agree.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: But yet our behaviors are saying otherwise.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: What are the biggest sort of takeaways from your work with the problem gambling thing in California?
23:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's uh technically it's called the Cal Getz program.
23:11
SPEAKER_01: It's the 1-800 gambler provider, basically.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: I haven't been a provider for too, too long, so that's one thing.
23:17
SPEAKER_00: But what is it that even made you want to do it?
23:22
SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, one of the reasons was because I I really think this is a huge problem that no one's talking about.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: And that's why I was so excited to bring it to the podcast because like I think people just still are are minimizing it to this day.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: People are are sitting on the couch watching a game, sitting there with their family.
23:40
SPEAKER_01: They go into the bathroom, they take a dump, and literally, while they're taking a dump, they can bet$2,000 on the line and walk back out of the of the room.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: Hopefully they wash their hands, and they're sitting down next to their partner and they don't even tell them that they just bet$2,000.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: I mean, talk about the level of betrayal that is happening in relationships, right?
24:01
SPEAKER_01: So I think about it from a systemic lens is like this is this is a big problem.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: And the more accessible it becomes, and the more we market it, like it more and more people are going to be affected, in particular young men.
24:16
SPEAKER_00: I would say that it's one of the easiest ways for men to disappear, like to disconnect emotionally from their partners and their family, is through gambling, right?
24:27
SPEAKER_00: And and like obviously at its most extremes.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: Right.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: But the fact that it's like not talked about enough, it's scary.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: And it's like what I think that's a point that you brought up too, with like with all of these like sports betting apps becoming so popular, what are the repercussions of that five, 10 years from now?
24:47
SPEAKER_01: Ooh, you know, how many families are gonna be ruined over this?
24:50
SPEAKER_01: You know, how many how many college funds are gonna be bet and lost for people's kids?
24:56
SPEAKER_01: I mean, should I keep going?
24:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry, little Timmy.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: I can't put you through through college because I I just spent all my money.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: Like, how many, how many mortgages are gonna be, you know, foreclosed on because of this?
25:11
SPEAKER_01: And it's only getting worse.
25:13
SPEAKER_01: It's only getting worse.
25:15
SPEAKER_01: I said on the podcast I'm having I'm having a baby, I'm be like, I can't, I can't be betting money.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: I got I got a child to raise, man.
25:23
SPEAKER_01: I got I got more important things, you know.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: And not to say that people who are betting don't think that their children are more important, but I think they think their children are the most important, and that's why they're betting so that they can continue to provide more, right?
25:36
SPEAKER_01: And it's like that is not what your kids are gonna remember.
25:40
SPEAKER_01: Your kids are gonna remember you being a parent to them.
25:43
SPEAKER_01: They're gonna remember how you made them feel, they're they're gonna remember all the times where you picked them up when they were down.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: You know, all of these things are what make it all worth it for your kids.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: This is according to what other parents tell me, because I'm not a parent yet, but soon to be 81 days.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: Do you want to place a bet on that?
26:05
SPEAKER_01: Place a bet on when the baby's coming out?
26:07
SPEAKER_01: You probably could bet on something like that.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: Instead of a baby shower, just have people place bets, and then the you become like a shark, basically.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: That's a million-dollar idea.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: Shark Tank.
26:22
SPEAKER_01: Shark Tank.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: We're asking for a hundred thousand dollars for a two percent stake in our company.
26:31
SPEAKER_00: Is the community building an aspect of this problem gambling?
26:37
SPEAKER_01: Usually by the time they come to me, no, it's pretty much filled with shame.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: And maybe in the beginning it started out was like something you're doing with friends or something like that.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: But by the time you get to me and you're, you know, you have debts and debts and you're doing cash advances, and I mean it's uh it's filled with shame at that point.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: So unfortunately, no.
27:03
SPEAKER_01: The commute you you're actually typically in this in in these cases are are losing parts of your community because you have gone back on your word on relationships and you've borrowed money from family and never paid them back.
27:16
SPEAKER_01: And it's like it's a lot.
27:18
SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah.
27:19
SPEAKER_00: I mean, exactly like the the vignette here with with Adrian.
27:23
SPEAKER_00: By the time it becomes a problem, it it is very solitary, right?
27:27
SPEAKER_00: Like you're you're hiding it, right?
27:28
SPEAKER_00: Like it's uh again, there's there's a lot of shame around that.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: And I think you just gotta be honest with yourself with why it is that you're doing it, right?
27:38
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we talked about this in our substance use one too, but the same thing here.
27:43
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the the sentiment that Adrian is talking about, which is wanting to level up and and and wanting more for himself and his future relationship with Marcus is it is is not an evil one, you know.
27:55
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where we can start reducing shame is really getting to the root of why are we doing some of these behaviors?
28:02
SPEAKER_01: Because if Marcus knew that that was the motivation behind doing this with Adrian, like that's something he can get behind, maybe not trying to accomplish that mission in the same way, but that's something he can get behind.
28:15
SPEAKER_01: And he could say, Yeah, like I've I feel like that too.
28:18
SPEAKER_01: Like, I feel like I'm not going anywhere and not where I'm supposed to be.
28:21
SPEAKER_01: And the two of them together can start to talk about like, where do you want to go with this?
28:26
SPEAKER_01: And how how do we try to level up our lives?
28:28
SPEAKER_01: What are our plans that are going to be safe for us if we are gonna do this thing called a relationship?
28:33
SPEAKER_01: You know, like that that's what I want people to start talking about and not just hiding it and trying to feel like you leveling up is all on you and your your worthiness within this relationship is based off of your ability to level up and take this person on vacations and stuff.
28:49
SPEAKER_00: So something that you've brought up in the past, if you're intentionally hiding and keeping secrets from your partner, that's that's a betrayal.
28:58
SPEAKER_00: And so, how do you maneuver that in like couples counseling, for example, if a partner has a separate account, right?
29:07
SPEAKER_01: Like what I try to describe it to people is when you withhold information and you're hiding something like that from your partner and they find out, like it it shakes their whole framework of the world.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: I mean, this person says that they trusted you with everything, and now all of a sudden you have a separate account where you're hiding money.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: It's like it is such a betrayal on the idea that romance can be true, that I can trust someone with everything, with who I am.
29:43
SPEAKER_01: And that's what I try to set the conversation with is like this is basically completely crumbled our idea of what this relationship is.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: And then the next part is the person that has done this is half has to be able to show genuine remorse.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: Right.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: So there can't be this justification, or it can't be like, well, this is what I was trying to do, and things like that.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: It has to be a sense of like, I see how this has broken you and us, and and and you have to feel incredibly genuinely remorseful for that.
30:17
SPEAKER_01: And then the the only way I know how to recover from betrayal is one of my old supervisors and my old practice that was working for said that trust equals consistency over time.
30:29
SPEAKER_01: There has to be moments where the person comes to you and says, I can't believe you did this, and they're gonna come to you 20 times a day to start.
30:38
SPEAKER_01: And every single time you have to sit there with genuine remorse and say, you know, I'm sorry, or every time you pick up the phone and they're looking to see if you're, you know, betting on an app or something, it's like there's another moment of trying to show like I understand what I did to this relationship and I'm sorry, and and so the odds are stacked against you for sure.
31:01
SPEAKER_00: Then at what point does it become your partner weaponizing that against you of like you fucked up and you did this and blah blah blah, and it's you know, it's a spiral.
31:14
SPEAKER_01: I don't want them going to them like that.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: I definitely want them going with softness and and pain.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, every once in a while they're gonna come at you sideways and you're gonna be able to But you can't be expected to do that time and time again.
31:26
SPEAKER_01: And we gotta grow as a couple.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: So if you're choosing to stay in this relationship, then you can't hold it hostage, too.
31:34
SPEAKER_01: Right?
31:35
SPEAKER_01: Those are some wise words.
31:37
SPEAKER_01: I just I just made that up actually.
31:38
SPEAKER_01: That that was I just dropped bars right there.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: That was that was dope.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna lie.
31:54
SPEAKER_01: It's just so cool to talk with you about this nuanced topic.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know it's not something that is like like we said, well talked about, but and or even something that you are very familiar with.
32:06
SPEAKER_01: And I know that I'm, you know, doing all this problem gambling stuff, and it's definitely a part of my world that I'm interested in.
32:12
SPEAKER_01: But um, you know, I think the everyday average person can relate to this even if they don't gamble.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: And this feeling of shame of feeling like you're not good enough and you want to level up in your life, and you see all this stuff on social media, and it's like, you know, let's let's combat that by doing healthy things rather than trying to day trade and think that you know when Amazon's stock is gonna go up or down because you because you don't.
32:36
SPEAKER_00: It is a fascinating top fascinating topic.
32:38
SPEAKER_00: And like I said, it I think it's one of the the biggest sort of escapes that go undetected a lot of the time.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: I think it's cool.
32:49
SPEAKER_00: It's cool that we're sort of bringing awareness to that and offering just another resource for people to to have if this is something that they're struggling with.
32:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and there's definitely like hope out there.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: There's gamblers anonymous meetings, you know, a lot of different services and stuff that a lot of people don't.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, the NIH and a lot of different public um forums are not, they don't give a lot of money to problem gambling research.
33:12
SPEAKER_01: Apparently, it's not sexy.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: You know, there is limited resources, but there are resources out there.
33:18
SPEAKER_01: The Cal Gets program, is that something that's like um It's funded through the Department of Public Health within the state of California, and then UCLA as a college has a program, an academic degree of studying the effects of problem gambling.
33:39
SPEAKER_01: And they basically funnel the money from the Department of Public Health to UCLA, and then UCLA pays providers to go do the programming and then record the data so that their graduate students can use the data for furthering research and understanding problem gambling more.
33:58
SPEAKER_00: We should link that in the in the show notes as well.
34:00
SPEAKER_01: Sure, yeah.
34:01
SPEAKER_01: Because on there you could look up providers like in your area too.
34:05
SPEAKER_01: So you can find people.
34:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: So you can reach out to them yourselves.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to call 1-800 problem gambling, you can reach out to people yourself.
34:13
SPEAKER_00: And you never know.
34:13
SPEAKER_00: If you call that 1-800 number, you might you might run into Chad there, you know.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: They might send you my name.
34:20
SPEAKER_00: Be on the lookout for that.
34:22
SPEAKER_01: So next week, continuing the the series on covert male depression, where I think another trope that we want to deconstruct with you all is video games and video game addiction and the chronic use of video games.
34:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, and we are having our next guest on.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: Woo woo woo! Yeah, I'm excited.
34:43
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna have on one of my good friends, also part of my chosen family, Dr.
34:49
SPEAKER_00: M.
34:49
SPEAKER_00: Kupelton.
34:51
SPEAKER_00: Dr.
34:51
SPEAKER_00: M is a video games uh researcher, an expert, they've been an educator for a long time.
35:00
SPEAKER_00: So very, very knowledgeable on this topic.
35:02
SPEAKER_00: So stay tuned for that.
35:06
SPEAKER_00: And with that, we leave you with one question.
35:11
SPEAKER_00: If the thrill of possibly winning keeps pulling you back, what does the thrill give you that your everyday life doesn't?
35:21
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for hanging with us for another episode of Browing Pains.
35:24
SPEAKER_00: If this episode has shifted your perspective at all, don't just keep it to yourself.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: Pass it on.
35:29
SPEAKER_01: Follow us on Instagram at BrowingPains for video clips.
35:34
SPEAKER_01: TikTok is getting a little spicy there, so we'd love to love to see your comments.
35:38
SPEAKER_00: Feeling a little caliente?
35:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:41
SPEAKER_00: With your hot hands.
35:46
SPEAKER_01: And if you've got a story, question, or a hot take you want us to unpack, slide into our inbox at growingpainspod at gmail.com.
35:56
SPEAKER_01: We'd love to hear from you.
35:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, see you next time.
36:00
SPEAKER_01: Alright.
36:01
SPEAKER_01: And with that hot hand, I'm out.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: You made it, bruh.