Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / SAVANNAH GUTHRIE MOM MISSING: DAY 42

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SAVANNAH GUTHRIE MOM MISSING: DAY 42 · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie missing.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: With this many agents on the ground, all the personnel,
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: all the technology, how is it possible? We take a
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: close look at exactly what the FBI is looking at
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: the tattoo on the porch guy's wrist, what can we learn?
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Believe me a lot? This as the Pima County Sheriff
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: issues an urgent plea for every one in the surrounding
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: area to hand in video. Will it make a difference, Well,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: when you don't know a horse, look at the track record.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: The answer is yes. Also at this hour, the FBI
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Behavioral Analyst unit carefully reviewing not just the porch guy video,
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: but the alleged ransom note why, straight out to Dave
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Matt Crime Story's investigative reporter, Dave, a crew armed with
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: ladders has arrived at Nancy Guffries's home and gone up
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: on the roof. What can you tell me? Why are
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: they there?
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: This silver pickup truck with multiple ladders in the back
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: pulled onto the Guthrie property, pulled around the driveway and
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: got up on the house. We don't know what they
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: were looking for, and no announcement has been made, but
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: activity at Nancy Guthrie's home.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Now we've examined it like a Rubik's cube, over and over,
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: trying to discern what, if anything, we can learn from
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: the tattoo on the porch guy's wrist, and tonight our findings.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Joining us in All Star panel, but straight out to
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: special guest, Darren the Dude rosa tattoo artist, joining us
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  Speaker 1: Rising Dragon Tattoos in New York City, thirty plus years
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: in the tattoo business. Mister Rosa, thank you for being
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: with us. Let's start controlling. Please show the video of
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: the purp approaching Missus Guthrie's porch. The FBI, according to sources,
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: has enlarged, refined, and brought in a team of analysts
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: to review the tattoo. As you see, he very carefully
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: covered his arms and wrists, not just because he doesn't
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: want to leave fingerprints. It's really hard to get an
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: arm print or an elbow print. That's not the reason
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: his body is totally covered. Now, let's iow the tattoo,
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: the sliver of tattoo that we see. We have learned
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: the FBI is doing exactly what we are doing. Darren
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: the dude, Rosa, you have studied this for hours. What
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: is as you call it, black and gray work?
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: Lacking gray work is a very prevalent style, not only
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: in the Southwestern area, but let's say the Southwestern area
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  Speaker 3: among gangs. Mexican people who might be in these gangs
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  Speaker 3: or cartels like to get black and gray. It's a
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: fine line. The outlines are done with a very fine needle.
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: The details, the shading is done with different dilutions of
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: black ink, and we termed that gray. So black and
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: gray is considered a style, and this is most likely
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: that style.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: Now you mentioned gang cartel, I am certainly not convinced
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: that Nancy Guthrie's kid app has any of the hallmarks
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: of a cartel move. But what about a gang member?
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Want to be what about family of gang member? What
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: about family of gang members and hangers on? I don't
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  Speaker 1: think you can limit to just a gang or a
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: cartel member, because once a tattoo is observed by others,
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: they want to replicate it, right, and I want to
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: hone in on the black and gray. Okay, But as
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: to relating to a gang or a cartel, let's focus
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: on gang. Why do you believe the black and gray
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: is from the southwest or from a certain region of
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: the country, and what region exactly would that be, mister Rossa.
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: Okay, well, first of all, let's deal with just the
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: practicality of black and gray. If we're talking about a
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: tattoo that was done in the penitentiary, these inmates don't
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: have access to color ink, but most likely they don't
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  Speaker 3: even want. This is a style that's been embellishing gangs
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: for years, and they've honed this style, this very subtle
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: gradations of ink to a fine art, and this is
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: even considered hallmarks of people who have moved up in
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  Speaker 3: the echelons of a gang.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: So why do you say that, Well, these people.
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: Are going to be doing a lot of time. They're
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: not giving up, they're not becoming informants. They're going to
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: be spending five years, ten years behind bars.
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  Speaker 4: They have a lot of time to kill.
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  Speaker 1: Guys with us is Darren the dude Russa joining us
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  Speaker 1: from Rising Dragon Tattoos in New York City? Thirty years
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: plus of experience in the tattoo aren't black and gray? Now,
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  Speaker 1: I just want to be sure we understand. Have you
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: ever seen a child with the coloring book, and they
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: outline the picture heavily with the crayon, and then there's
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: a lighter hue the same color on the inside. That's
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: how I'm equating your description of black and gray. Would
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  Speaker 1: that be correct?
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  Speaker 3: Well, no, because it wouldn't be with the same quote
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  Speaker 3: unquote crayon. The dilutions is what I called it, are using.
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: You know, let's say it was penitentiary. So the dilutions
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: would be created using different concentrations of black ink diluted
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  Speaker 3: with water, but most likely a little bit of alcohol
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: because you know, for germs, and it also helps spread
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: the ink and create a finer mist of shading the alcohol.
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  Speaker 1: But black and gray work is a hallmark of a
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: certain region of our country. You're saying that too.
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: Oh, yes, and absolutely. This is also the kind of
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: the style of tattooing that withstands heavy sun exposure. So
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: because like I said, this style fine line typically single
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: needle work, and you know these people are are out
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: in the sun. The southern western states get heavy sun exposure.
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  Speaker 3: So this style of artistry can withstand the elements.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: You mentioned a single needle, would black and gray be
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: done with multiple needs to that degree of fineness?
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  Speaker 3: The treating would be done with multiple needles. Typically, the
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: outline is done with a single needle, and it's actually
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: a very difficult style to do. So an artist can
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: gain quite a status in a penitentiary if he's adept
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  Speaker 3: at this style.
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: Darren, the dude Rossa joining us from Rising Dragon Tattoos
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: in New York. What do you make of this tattoo
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  Speaker 1: in the sense of I believe it's part of a
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: much bigger tattoo, and that leads me you think it's
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: part of a sleeve? What do you think?
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  Speaker 3: Oh? Absolutely, I mean, if this is all we're seeing,
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  Speaker 3: and what is this like barely half of an inch,
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  Speaker 3: this is most likely the continuation of something that covers
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: this man's entire arm. Most likely he's got tattoos on
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: his hands, He's he's wearing this, this hooded mask, this
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: pola clava. Most likely he's got tattoos on his neck
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: and maybe even something under his eye, because this is
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: what they.
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  Speaker 1: Do, Darren, you mentioned covering up his arm. Yes, I
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: want to get back to the full sleeve because to me,
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: from what I've observed from inmates over all the years
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: I prosecuted and investigated in covered crimes, once you start,
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: you can't stop. And that leads me to think this
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: on him looks part of a bigger tattoo that tells
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: me it's a full sleep. And once somebody gets the
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: full sleep, it's like they can't stop. I mean, do
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: you think people get addicted to getting tattoos? I do.
• 9:51
  Speaker 5: You know getting addicted?
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  Speaker 3: Has you know that that stigma that this is like
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: heroin or something? But to focus on this guy, uh,
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  Speaker 3: you know, he was probably an inmate at a penitentiary,
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: and let's not forget they have a lot of time
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  Speaker 3: to kill. Yes, tattoos can be addictive. People use them
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: for therapy. They call it ink therapy.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: Did you just say ink therapy?
• 10:24
  Speaker 5: What is that ink therapy? Yeah?
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  Speaker 3: That's that's that's a phrase that's bouncing around. Especially in
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: the winter months right a lot of people get seasonal depression.
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: People come in for a little ink therapy, or they're
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: going through some stress in their life, maybe a divorce
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: or or something. Maybe they lost a loved one, a parent.
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: They come in for some therapy.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: H never heard that. You just taught me something new. So, Darren,
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  Speaker 1: if we believe that he has the wrist tattoo, which
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: is part of a sleeve. Why stop there, arego? It
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: follows that he would have a neck tattoo. And even more,
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: do you agree with that? That's who we're looking for.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: That's why I care about this guy's tattoo.
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: I agree one hundred percent. I mean eighty two degrees.
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  Speaker 3: And he's wearing his hooded mask. He's got tattoos on
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: his neck, most likely you know, on the edges of
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: his face. This is the kind of Southwestern state gangs.
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: They love getting heavily covered in black and gray style tattoos.
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  Speaker 1: So in your experience to nail this point down thirty
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: plus years, Darren the dude Rosa. Once you start with
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: the wrist, the risk is part of a bigger tattoo,
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  Speaker 1: which would be the sleeve. That's why they call it
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: a sleeve. It's like a leave of your shirt or jacket.
• 12:02
  Speaker 5: It's like your shirt.
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  Speaker 1: The hand is covered could indicate part of the hand.
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  Speaker 1: If you look at the picture game control room, you
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: don't see it ending as it goes down into the glove.
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  Speaker 1: Does that signify a hand tattoo in your experience, does
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  Speaker 1: that suggest to you that he would have another sleeve
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  Speaker 1: on the other arm and possibly the neck. That's a
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: simple yes, no, absolutely yes. Okay, let's move from that.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: So we're looking for a guy from this region, exposed
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: to the sun, potential gang connections, with a full sleeve
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  Speaker 1: and hand, possibly two sleeves and neck. Now, is it
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: your experience that people that get tattoos first get their
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: dominant hand tattooed or their other hand non dominant? Which
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: one do they typically tattoo first?
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: Right, A lot of right handed people will start with
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  Speaker 3: their left arm. So if this guy has his right
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: arm and it looks like he's right handed, because every
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: time he goes up to that ring camera, he starts
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: off with his right arm. That's my own little analysis
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  Speaker 3: of his actions. He starts with his right and then
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  Speaker 3: his left is kind of helping him. So I would
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: say he's fully sleeved on his left arm and then
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: he got his right arm done, because this is what
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: most people that have come into my studio do.
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  Speaker 1: So he's right handed, so he would have typically start
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: with tests on the left and then go to the right.
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  Speaker 1: So that tells me I can assume that he has
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  Speaker 1: two sleeves and at least one hand and possibly the neck. Okay,
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: you have stated repeatedly references to jail tats. Now they're
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: called jail tats, But I believe this tattoo is not
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: a jail tat because, to my unstrained eye, after all
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: the years I have investigated and prosecuted defendants, jail tats
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: don't look good. They're very crude. This tat is not crude.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: It's very refined. So why do you refer to jail tats.
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: Some of these inmates who spend a lot of time
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: in jail, they develop sophisticated networks with the guards, with
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: the staff. These days, it's very easy to smuggle in.
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: The machines have gotten smaller, compact, more sophisticated. It's my
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: belief that he got this while.
• 14:59
  Speaker 5: In garcerated, and.
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: The level of sophistication has become exponential even in populations
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: that are incarcerated.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: Would inmates, let's say in the pen penitentiary CI correctional institute,
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: would they have access to multiple needles or do they
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: go single needle?
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: Well, like I said, the machines have become very sophisticated.
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: They've become compact. We now have a system that uses
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: cartridges that lock into the pen like apparatus. It would
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: be very easy. These these needles are about an inch
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: and a half. It would be very easy for them
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: to obtain a single needle for the line and a
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: cluster of needles for the shading.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: When we're talking about jail house tats, here's my thinking.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: If you're in a jail, think of Andy of Mayberry.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: You're there for a brief period of time because you
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: have been sentenced to a misdemeanor, and they just keep
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: you in the county jail because you're going to be
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: out like that, there's no use in putting you in
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: the system. It takes forever, or you're awaiting trial or
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: a court date. Once you're sentenced, or you have a
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: long wait for trial, such as Epstein, you go into
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: a bigger facility and sometimes a CI correctional institute. But
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: those people are typically sentenced and doing a long stint.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: Why do I care, Because if this guy was in
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: a CI to get that tattoo, that means he's got
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: a record. So now I've got a guy from the
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: Southwest region that spends a lot of time in the
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: sun that got black and gray work, likely has two
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: full sleeves and more and has done jailed time Okay,
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: isn't it true, Darren the dude Rosa, that at your
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: tattoo parlor, Rising Dragon, you have, for instance, a catalog
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: or a series of tattoos that your customers can look
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: at and pick out a tattoo. Isn't that true?
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: We do, But I would dare say that that these
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: people are not flipped catalogs. They're going off the cuff,
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: and an artist kind of gains cred by being able
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: to do sophisticated custom work.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: Ah, so customer that they envision and they say, hey,
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: this is what I want. Now you created. Would you
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: agree that once you start with tats, very often you
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: stick with the same tattoo artists, and with tattoos of
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: this magnitude, you would remember doing.
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: It absolutely absolutely.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: Have you ever been approached by law enforcement to identify
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: a tattoo?
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: Yes?
• 18:11
  Speaker 6: I have.
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: About twenty thirty years ago, I was approached by FBI.
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: They were trying to identify some of the victims, which
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: happened to be prostitutes or we could say sex workers.
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: This specific killer a serial killer. The police had pulled
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: over him in his pickup truck. They found a decapitated body,
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: which led them to more in the far rockaway Brooklyn area,
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: but my studio in Manhattan was one of the studio,
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: so they came to me to see if I could
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: identify any of these women.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: Could you?
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: I did not recognize the particular tattoos Old Dough another artist.
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: I felt it was more his style.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: Interesting. And here is the million dollar question. Let me
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: rephrase the one point two plus million dollar question. You've
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: looked at this sliver of tattoo. What do you think
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: it is? Is it a cross? Is it a flower?
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: Is it a demon? Is it a dragon? Is it
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: a creature like you've got on your neck? What is it?
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: Well, we can tell it's not geometric. It's it's got
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: wavy lines. The prevalent type of imagery these people get
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: h Catholic imagery of memorials to deceased gang members or
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: family members. Most likely it's saints, clouds, roses. These kind
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: of images that that memorialize family members are gang members
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: who become like family members to these people.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Gray with me, Darren the Dude
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: Rosa thirty years in the business at Rising Dragon Tattoos,
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: New York City, also joining us special guest Jeffrey Gentry
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: Jeffrey Gentry, forensic certified, hold on, I don't want to
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: put all the stuff about blood pattern. Jeffrey Gentry, certified
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: forensics expert with a certain expertise in tattoos, author of
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: Forensic science Applications to Death and crime scene Investigation, and more. Jeffrey,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: thank you for being with us now that you have
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: soaked in everything that Rosa had to say, as well
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: as study the tattoos. Sliver, I want to hear all
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: your thoughts.
• 21:31
  Speaker 7: You came to the right forensic analysts, Nancy. I love tattoos,
• 21:36
  Speaker 7: first of all. I usually am on the show with
• 21:39
  Speaker 7: a long sleeved shirt and tie for that very reason.
• 21:42
  Speaker 7: So if you look at my arms, I've got little
• 21:45
  Speaker 7: dead bodies, chalk outlines, I've got dinosaurs, I've got DNA
• 21:52
  Speaker 7: all up and down my arms. I've got Jurassic Park,
• 21:57
  Speaker 7: a little bit of everything, crime scene tape around my wrist,
• 22:00
  Speaker 7: and my tattoos are very special to me. It's things
• 22:05
  Speaker 7: that I enjoy, things that are personal about my life.
• 22:09
  Speaker 7: But you notice that my tattoos in a couple of
• 22:13
  Speaker 7: inches above my wrist, and I do that for a
• 22:15
  Speaker 7: very specific reason. I don't have any on my neck.
• 22:17
  Speaker 7: I don't have any on my wrist, and that's because
• 22:20
  Speaker 7: when I go into a courtroom or when I'm out
• 22:22
  Speaker 7: of a crime scene, I want to appear more professional.
• 22:25
  Speaker 7: So when you start looking at tattoos that are lower
• 22:28
  Speaker 7: down on the hands and wrists, you start thinking about
• 22:31
  Speaker 7: the people that.
• 22:33
  Speaker 5: Get these tattoos.
• 22:34
  Speaker 7: And they are people, like your tattoo artists said, provided
• 22:38
  Speaker 7: excellent information by the way they might have been in prison.
• 22:42
  Speaker 7: They might be parts of things they are most likely
• 22:45
  Speaker 7: not testifying as a professional in court. So that's more
• 22:50
  Speaker 7: of the like the psychiatric analysis or the behavioral analysis,
• 22:54
  Speaker 7: just figuring out what type of person might.
• 22:57
  Speaker 5: Have this tattoo.
• 22:59
  Speaker 7: Now you then have to create a link from identifying
• 23:03
  Speaker 7: the type of person that has the tattoo to the
• 23:06
  Speaker 7: specific person that has the tattoo. And this tattoo being
• 23:10
  Speaker 7: visible now can provide you a forensic link or a
• 23:15
  Speaker 7: positive idea on not only a person, but connecting them
• 23:19
  Speaker 7: to this crime scene. And so you have to think
• 23:20
  Speaker 7: about how are you going to figure out first of
• 23:23
  Speaker 7: all what this tattoo is, and then how are you
• 23:26
  Speaker 7: going to identify this person? And I think you're on
• 23:29
  Speaker 7: the right track with talking to tattoo artists like your guests,
• 23:34
  Speaker 7: because those are the people that are going to be
• 23:36
  Speaker 7: able to identify these specific, unique tattoos. I have personally
• 23:41
  Speaker 7: investigated cases where as a death investigator, I have identified
• 23:45
  Speaker 7: bodies with tattoos, and you have to get a little creative.
• 23:49
  Speaker 7: One case that I had, in particular, it was a
• 23:51
  Speaker 7: man that was found out in a river and he'd
• 23:53
  Speaker 7: been in the river for I don't remember if it
• 23:56
  Speaker 7: was days or weeks, but his body was severely decomposed.
• 24:00
  Speaker 7: He had a really unique tattoo on his body, and
• 24:03
  Speaker 7: so during the death investigation, we were not able to
• 24:05
  Speaker 7: identify fingerprints, We couldn't identify this person with dental records.
• 24:09
  Speaker 7: So what I did is I took pictures of this
• 24:11
  Speaker 7: unique tattoo and put it out in the news, and
• 24:15
  Speaker 7: literally within a couple of hours, you had family calling
• 24:18
  Speaker 7: and saying that they believe that that was their relative
• 24:20
  Speaker 7: that was found. So that's the first step is trying
• 24:24
  Speaker 7: to figure out who this person is, who they possibly are,
• 24:27
  Speaker 7: But then the second part is physically matching that up
• 24:31
  Speaker 7: with the person. And so there's a lot of different
• 24:34
  Speaker 7: resources available, especially now with AI and all these online
• 24:39
  Speaker 7: search engines. So you would want to enhance the tattoo
• 24:43
  Speaker 7: photograph as much as possible, put it into some kind
• 24:46
  Speaker 7: of photograph recognition software, and generate some leads. The other
• 24:51
  Speaker 7: option is, like we talked about, putting it out in
• 24:53
  Speaker 7: social media, your guests, your viewers, all of the people
• 24:57
  Speaker 7: that are interested in this case going to be a
• 25:00
  Speaker 7: tremendous resource because I might see it as maybe being
• 25:04
  Speaker 7: a snake or a skull or part of the name,
• 25:06
  Speaker 7: but your tattoo artist or one of your guests who
• 25:10
  Speaker 7: does a lot of research might see it as something
• 25:12
  Speaker 7: completely different. And so we have to start generating leads,
• 25:14
  Speaker 7: and it's going to come from the public and people
• 25:16
  Speaker 7: that are familiar with tattoos, like your tattoo artists. Most
• 25:20
  Speaker 7: tattoo artists have a specific style, like your guests talked about.
• 25:25
  Speaker 7: So I would get this tattoo photograph out to as
• 25:28
  Speaker 7: many local tattoo artists as possible and see what they
• 25:31
  Speaker 7: can tell you.
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: Every little is going to help.
• 25:34
  Speaker 7: And then social media TikTok, YouTube, Facebook, get those tattoo
• 25:39
  Speaker 7: pictures out there and see what people.
• 25:41
  Speaker 5: Can come up with.
• 25:42
  Speaker 7: Because once you have some leads and you can kind
• 25:46
  Speaker 7: of start nearing down suspects. Also, anytime somebody is contacted
• 25:51
  Speaker 7: by the police, whether it be an arrest or just
• 25:54
  Speaker 7: a contact, police are generally going to document tattoo information,
• 25:59
  Speaker 7: and it's going to be very general when it's documented
• 26:02
  Speaker 7: in police records. But you can search that I've identified
• 26:06
  Speaker 7: victims of crimes and deceased people with just basic tattoo information.
• 26:11
  Speaker 7: Now I've done so very quickly out of crime scenes.
• 26:14
  Speaker 7: So if it's visible on the hand, like to say,
• 26:17
  Speaker 7: for example, the police made with this person in the past.
• 26:20
  Speaker 7: If it's visible on the hand, that should be documented
• 26:22
  Speaker 7: somewhere in police records.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: Absolutely based on the gang database information not only with
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: the FEDS and of course tag tattoo and graffiti subspecialty.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: It's a very elite crew within the FBI at Quantico
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: that analyzes not only graffiti, but more often tattoos, and
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: that is put in a data bank. Even Arizona, the
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: state has a gang and tattoo data bank right now.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: The FBI doing much of what Gentry is describing for
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: us tonight.
• 26:57
  Speaker 6: Hi, there, everybody. I wanted to come on and just
• 27:04
  Speaker 6: share a few thoughts as we enter into another week
• 27:11
  Speaker 6: of this nightmare. I just want to say First of all,
• 27:17
  Speaker 6: thank you so much for all of the prayers and
• 27:24
  Speaker 6: the love that we have felt, my sister and brother
• 27:27
  Speaker 6: and I, and that our mom has felt.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: Because we believe that.
• 27:36
  Speaker 6: Somehow, in some ways, she is feeling these prayers and
• 27:39
  Speaker 6: that God is lifting her even in this moment and
• 27:41
  Speaker 6: in this darkest place, we believe our mom.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: Is still out there.
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: We need your help.
• 27:54
  Speaker 6: Law enforcement is working tirelessly around the clock trying to
• 27:59
  Speaker 6: bring her home, to find her. She was taken and
• 28:03
  Speaker 6: we don't know where, and we need your help. So
• 28:10
  Speaker 6: I'm coming on just to ask you, not just for
• 28:13
  Speaker 6: your prayers, but no matter where you are, even if
• 28:16
  Speaker 6: you're far from Tucson, if you see anything, you hear anything,
• 28:21
  Speaker 6: if there's anything at all that seems strange to you
• 28:26
  Speaker 6: that you report to law enforcement. We are an hour
• 28:32
  Speaker 6: of desperation.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: And we need your help. Also, in addition to a
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: team of experts analyzing the tattoo, the behavioral body language
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: of the porch guy, and more reims, a video is
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: being analyzed and categorized. Now we see Pima County sheriffs
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: begging the public for help. Take a look at what
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: they have posted. It says it is an urgent request
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: for all neighbors and people in the area, not necessarily
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: just neighbors. We saw what happen when the radius was
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: limited to just two miles. A glove popped up beyond
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: two miles and video has popped up that could be significant.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: Pema County Shares Department Evidence Submission Portal. Dave Matt Crime
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: Stories investigative Reporter. What is it?
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: A new website created specifically for the public to send
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: in their video, the security video from Nest cameras, ring cameras,
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: any video, any pictures they have. It's been mentioned that
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: in the neighborhood where this took place, we have some
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: senior citizens that might not be as adept with electronics
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: and transferring video. This makes it very very simple. They
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: click one button and can upload their video so the
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: law enforcement investigators can actually see video for the first time.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: In some cases that might lead to a solution.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: Straight out to Scott Iiker, joining US digital forensics expert,
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: founding member of the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team on
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: the Homicide Squad at Norfolk, Virginia for over a decade.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: Now with precision cellular analysis, you're seeing this video supply
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: to US by our friends at Fox, Scott Iiker, what
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: do you make of the plea and we have seen?
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: At first Nano stated that the video we were just
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: showing Scott of the cars racing by around the time
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: that Nancy goes missing, that that was unrelated and didn't matter.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: Now it turns out to be one of the single
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: most important pieces of evidence, next to the porch Guy video.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: Now an urgent request for video submissions. What do you
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: make of a Scott Iiker.
• 31:00
  Speaker 8: As the investigation continues and kind of morphs one way
• 31:04
  Speaker 8: or the other, you start wandering wanting to get video
• 31:08
  Speaker 8: from several different aspects. Now we have the cars going
• 31:12
  Speaker 8: by the cactus there and made it in the night
• 31:15
  Speaker 8: around the time she went missing. Now they're going to
• 31:17
  Speaker 8: expand out further, saying, hey, we want more video in
• 31:20
  Speaker 8: this area. The more the better, right, I mean, if
• 31:24
  Speaker 8: it's not related, we'll figure that out later, but please
• 31:26
  Speaker 8: get us the video now so it doesn't get lost
• 31:30
  Speaker 8: before it's overridden, so we can have that data and
• 31:35
  Speaker 8: use it later on when we need it.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: Also joining us in addition to Scott Iiker, former fed
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: with the FBI is Brian Fitzgibbons, Fitzgibbons is director of
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: Operations at USPA Nationwide Security that leads a team of
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: investigators around the world, including extractions from Mexico in finding
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: missing people. Former marine Iraqi more Vet. I want to
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: talk to you about video submissions on how they have
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: cracked cases in the past, Fitzgibbons. First of all, just
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: off the top of my head is Brian Coburger. After
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: four students were killed, a clerk at a local gas
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: station convenience store took it upon herself to wade through
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: hours of video. She sees a white Launchra speed by
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: the intersection, which was near the king wrote address one
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: of the only ways to get to it, I might add,
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: she gets it. She tells law enforcement and they first
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: become aware of a white Elantra. They put out the
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: word white Elantra to all local law enforcement, including Washington
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: State University pullman. The campus security go through their records,
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: who's registered here with a white Elantra, and the name
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: Brian Coburger pops up for the first time. Then this
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: neighborhood surveillance video catches the white Elantra at least seven
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: times circling the area. BAM busted. Then of course, there
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: is the case of the so called glam yoga instructor
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Caitlin Armstrong. There is her suv circling the murder scene
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: before she goes in and murders her love rival, a
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: world champion dirt bike racer, a woman who Armstrong suspected
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: of stealing her boyfriend. Completely untrue, but dead body she's
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: caught on surveillance video. Then, of course we have to
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: mention Molly Tibbetts. A beautiful young co ed studied all day,
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: goes out for a jog when she is approached by
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: a dark colored suv that keeps following her. When she
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: threatens to call nine to one one, the purp kills
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: her and throws her body in a cornfield. He's identified
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: through distinct markings on the side of his vehicle. What
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: do you make, Fitzgibbons. The PMA County Sheriffs now urgent
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: request for residents, neighbors and more to submit their video.
• 34:23
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 34:23
  Speaker 9: First, I'll say that that website, the portal they have
• 34:28
  Speaker 9: is perfect. It's very simple and easy for anybody to
• 34:32
  Speaker 9: upload their video. And Scott Aiker hit the nail on
• 34:35
  Speaker 9: the head. Time is of the essence right now, anybody
• 34:39
  Speaker 9: in that greater Tucson area that has any video on
• 34:44
  Speaker 9: or around the date that Nancy disappeared, It's important that
• 34:47
  Speaker 9: they get to this site and upload it and let
• 34:51
  Speaker 9: the experts, let the analysts go through it and figure
• 34:54
  Speaker 9: out if it's if it's valuable or not. But anything
• 34:57
  Speaker 9: on her about that time of her disappearance could potentially
• 35:01
  Speaker 9: have value and could potentially help break the case.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us renowned psychoanalyst out of the
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: California jurisdiction. You can see her on peacock. She is
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: the author of deal Breakers, and you can find her
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. Doctor Bethany Marshall. The
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: FBI and local law enforcement has kept close to the
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: vest the ransom notes. I'm not sure why, but it
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: seems to me that a lot could be gleaned from
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: the ransom notes. And let me just throw out the
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: example of te Kazinski, the unibomber. His manifesto, remember it
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: was finally published in the New York Times. Once it
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: was published, and he terrorized our country for decades. Murder
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: meant nothing to him. His brother recognized certain vernacular phrases
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: phraseology in the manifesto. He said, that's got to be
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: my brother, for Pete's sake. Then there's BTK buying torture
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: kill Dennis Raider, he taunted the Oh my goodness, there
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: he is dressed up in the victim's clothing. Freak. He
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: taunted law enforcement and media with these typewritten notes. Idiot.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: Of course, the typewriter can be tracked back to a
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: certain typewriter, even not just with the keys with an
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: older model, but with a ball type such as found
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: on the IBM Selectra. You can get it from the
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: ribbon in a Selectra. So the use of a typewriter
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: in our case, the use of email, the content of
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: those ransom letters could tell me a lot. This video
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: from our friends at IBM. And of course there's John
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: ben a Ramsey, for Pete's sake, who says hints. Who
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: do you know except me occasionally that uses the word hints. Hints.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: That's what the ransom letter said. So why are they
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: keep think close to the best of What can we
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: learn from the ransom letter? Doctor Bethany, You.
• 37:03
  Speaker 10: Know, Nancy, those ransom notes are a treasure trove of information.
• 37:07
  Speaker 10: For instance, the BTK killer was a very rigid, regimented guy.
• 37:11
  Speaker 10: Remember he was a local dogcatcher. He would measure everybody's
• 37:16
  Speaker 10: grass on their lawns to make sure it didn't grow
• 37:18
  Speaker 10: too much, and that the way he wrote. The typewritten
• 37:22
  Speaker 10: ransom note reflects those characteristics because it's very rigid, very
• 37:26
  Speaker 10: small type. But moving on to Nancy Guthrie, it can
• 37:30
  Speaker 10: tell us what the intent or the motivation of the
• 37:33
  Speaker 10: kidnap is. For instance, if the motivation is simply money,
• 37:38
  Speaker 10: then the ransom note is going to be fairly short,
• 37:42
  Speaker 10: with very detailed information about how to submit to send
• 37:47
  Speaker 10: the money. However, if it's more like a kidnapp because
• 37:52
  Speaker 10: somebody is stalking Nancy because they're obsessed with her, they're
• 37:56
  Speaker 10: obsessed with Savannah or maybe one of the other siblings,
• 37:59
  Speaker 10: then there's going to be more of a manifesto type quality.
• 38:03
  Speaker 10: These people stalkers love to write about it, they love
• 38:06
  Speaker 10: to talk about it, So in this case we would
• 38:09
  Speaker 10: see somebody putting a lot of information into that ransom
• 38:12
  Speaker 10: note Nancy. There are also what I call affectations. These
• 38:16
  Speaker 10: are verbal flourishes that people use to make what they're
• 38:21
  Speaker 10: talking about appear way more important than it really is.
• 38:25
  Speaker 10: And I tend to think of criminals as being rather narcissistic, shallow,
• 38:30
  Speaker 10: empty people who have to prop themselves up, so they
• 38:33
  Speaker 10: would be more likely to use an affectation like maybe
• 38:37
  Speaker 10: the misuse of a big word that makes them feel
• 38:42
  Speaker 10: like they're very smart, and they misuse that word all
• 38:45
  Speaker 10: the time. So and the public is going to be fascinated.
• 38:49
  Speaker 10: One other quick thing, Nancy, It's important to know what
• 38:53
  Speaker 10: the writer of the note saw in Nancy Guthrie's room
• 38:58
  Speaker 10: that could be verified, because because is it something that
• 39:01
  Speaker 10: any kidnapper would see, like a kidnapp for ransom, or
• 39:07
  Speaker 10: is it something that a stalker would see, like maybe
• 39:12
  Speaker 10: a family photograph or maybe, I hate to say it,
• 39:15
  Speaker 10: a pair of underwear, a pair of stalking something highly
• 39:19
  Speaker 10: personal that the kidnapper would want to have control over
• 39:23
  Speaker 10: in order to gain proximity to the victim.
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: Bethany point while taken the video we were just showing
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: is from our friends to the Today Show, to braf
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: Its Gibbons, what do you make of law enforcement holding
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: on to the ransom nuts and remember there were threats
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: to Nancy Guthrie in there. Now. One theory is that
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: the description of the inside of her home was given
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: because they can no longer offer proof of life. They
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: could not send a photo or a video. I'm Nancy
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: Guthrie to show proof of life. That's one train of thought.
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: But there were threats against Nancy and details regarding the
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: inside of her home, So why not release the ransom notes?
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: Fitz Gibbons, You've got a theory.
• 40:15
  Speaker 9: Yeah, So, first of all, the FBI doesn't do things
• 40:19
  Speaker 9: because they have nothing to lose. They do things when
• 40:22
  Speaker 9: they have something to gain. And in this case, I
• 40:25
  Speaker 9: believe we do know quite a bit about the ransom
• 40:28
  Speaker 9: notes that were sent to the media outlets, that they
• 40:31
  Speaker 9: were delivered via email. They were not that long, the
• 40:36
  Speaker 9: writing wasn't that long. And similar to Ted Kaczinski, his
• 40:42
  Speaker 9: manifesto released by the FBI in nineteen ninety five had
• 40:45
  Speaker 9: over thirty five thousand words. So the FBI was very
• 40:50
  Speaker 9: confident in that case that someone might be able to
• 40:53
  Speaker 9: identify his ideology, his writing style, things that he was
• 40:58
  Speaker 9: saying in that long detailed manifesto. In John Bennet Ramsey's case,
• 41:05
  Speaker 9: this was a handwritten letter, Okay, that someone may be
• 41:09
  Speaker 9: able to identify the handwriting, the way that words join together.
• 41:14
  Speaker 9: So I think in this case it's it's that the
• 41:17
  Speaker 9: FBI is determined that they don't have anything to gain.
• 41:20
  Speaker 9: There may be a chance that copycat demands are sent
• 41:26
  Speaker 9: out if that's released, and then it distracts from the
• 41:29
  Speaker 9: momentum of the case.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: Joining us now, Jeffrey Gentry forensic certified analyst with quite
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: the expertise with law enforcement and tattoos obviously, But jeff
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: what do you make of them refusing to release is
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: ransom note or any of them providing they are in
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: fact connected.
• 41:52
  Speaker 7: A lot of times when there is a police investigation
• 41:56
  Speaker 7: and there is something specific that the police do not
• 42:00
  Speaker 7: want to release, it's usually because it's unique and it
• 42:04
  Speaker 7: can be a unique identifier of this suspect. So say,
• 42:08
  Speaker 7: for example, the suspect mentioned something that nobody else would
• 42:11
  Speaker 7: know or nobody.
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: Else would say.
• 42:14
  Speaker 7: You don't want to just release that information to the
• 42:16
  Speaker 7: public because then everybody's going to know it. So when
• 42:19
  Speaker 7: they start questioning this suspect, when they catch them, they
• 42:22
  Speaker 7: want to be able to ask them about this specific
• 42:24
  Speaker 7: information that maybe no one else would say or nobody
• 42:27
  Speaker 7: else would be able to identify. That way they can
• 42:30
  Speaker 7: know that they have the right person. So that there's
• 42:32
  Speaker 7: usually a reason that you don't release this information to
• 42:34
  Speaker 7: the public, and that's usually why you want to have
• 42:38
  Speaker 7: something in your pocket to be able to ask these
• 42:41
  Speaker 7: people that is going to trigger reaction and be able
• 42:45
  Speaker 7: to be used as a unique identifier when they apprehend
• 42:48
  Speaker 7: this suspect. That's my theory on why they're not releasing
• 42:51
  Speaker 7: this information to the public because they have something specific
• 42:54
  Speaker 7: that they're going to be able to use to identify
• 42:56
  Speaker 7: this suspect when they catch them.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: An elite squad at Quantu, the FBI trying to create
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: a shoe cast. This as we learn the FBI has
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: returned to a particular restaurant to reinterrogate restaurant employees. And
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: what about the possibility of retinal scanning of the porch
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: guy and this as apb All points bulletin on a
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: mail trying to have a full sleeve removed, a full
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: sleeve tattoo removed. Good evening. I mean, see, Grace, this
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: is crime Stories. I want to thank you for being
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: with us. Maybe the stalker did glean a lot, but
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: what evidence did the purp I'm not convinced he's a
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: stalker of Nancy Guthrie. I think that he is a
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: con trying to make a quick dollar or a million.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: What clues did he unwittingly leave behind. We have analyzed
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: him from the top of his head to the soles
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: off his shoes. Enter Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, Joseph
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, death investigator, author of Blood Beneath My Feet
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: on Amazon, and star of a hit podcast series Bodybags.
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: With Joseph Scott Morgan, I was concerned about any possibility
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: of a shoe print because the walkway to Nancy Guthrie's home,
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: if we could see that, I believe is gravel. But
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: let's start with A and end at Z. What is
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: a shoe cast and what is electromagnetic lift?
• 45:00
  Speaker 11: Okay, there's any number of ways to raise a shoe print,
• 45:04
  Speaker 11: if you will. Traditionally what we think of and we
• 45:06
  Speaker 11: still do this, Nancy. If you think about a foot
• 45:09
  Speaker 11: going into a soft malleable surface like mud, soft dirt,
• 45:13
  Speaker 11: even sand, you leave behind an impression, okay, and we
• 45:18
  Speaker 11: can cast that. We can put dental stone in there,
• 45:21
  Speaker 11: let it dry, pull it out, and you have this
• 45:23
  Speaker 11: image of the shoe print. Here we have an example,
• 45:26
  Speaker 11: for instance, of an electrostatic lift. This is completely different.
• 45:29
  Speaker 11: This is where we put down a charged sheet of
• 45:34
  Speaker 11: my laar and it actually goes over an area where
• 45:38
  Speaker 11: there is a suspected print that's generally left in soil
• 45:42
  Speaker 11: or dust. That's not really you're not able to see
• 45:45
  Speaker 11: it with the unaided eye very well. But what it
• 45:48
  Speaker 11: does is that there is a magnetic charge and that
• 45:51
  Speaker 11: lifts that print off of that surface and you can
• 45:54
  Speaker 11: pull it up and you can actually examine it. Here
• 45:57
  Speaker 11: we have an example of an electro static lift being
• 46:00
  Speaker 11: conducted just yesterday at Jacksonville State And for my money,
• 46:06
  Speaker 11: in this particular case, Nancy, I'm leaning more into the
• 46:11
  Speaker 11: electric electrostatic lift here because you know, you don't have
• 46:15
  Speaker 11: a lot of soft mud around there or soft dirt
• 46:18
  Speaker 11: that you're going through. But even if you look at
• 46:21
  Speaker 11: that porch, Nancy, look at that porch, those are tiles
• 46:24
  Speaker 11: out there. Now, there would be a myriad of prints
• 46:27
  Speaker 11: out there. But what if they went in there and
• 46:29
  Speaker 11: actually did electrostatic lifts there. And also if they can
• 46:33
  Speaker 11: determine where the point of entry is in this house,
• 46:36
  Speaker 11: go to the interior of the house and do those
• 46:39
  Speaker 11: lifts there. If there's an area around her bed where
• 46:42
  Speaker 11: you've got kind of a smooth, non porous or less
• 46:45
  Speaker 11: than poor surface like a ceramic tile there, which a
• 46:49
  Speaker 11: lot of houses in the Southwest. Have you do that
• 46:52
  Speaker 11: around her bed? You see if there's any kind of weird,
• 46:55
  Speaker 11: weird prints that are there, like a man sneaker in
• 46:57
  Speaker 11: print that's left, and that is possible, you can do that.
• 47:01
  Speaker 11: I just hope it's not too late. I hope that
• 47:03
  Speaker 11: they protected that scene initially, but I got to tell you,
• 47:07
  Speaker 11: hope's deming as far as I'm concerned.
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: Jo Scott Morgan, don't you remember at the get go
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: where anybody and their little sister could walk up to
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: the front porch and take photos because Nanos did not
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: secure the scene, not once, but twice did not secure
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: the scene. Gules were going up and taking photos of
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie's blood on the front porch. This is from
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: our forensic kold. And as a matter of fact, someone
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: tried to deliver a pizza to the crime scene. That's
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: how unprotected it was. How is that going to affect
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: any hope of a shoe cast tremendously?
• 47:44
  Speaker 11: As you know as an attorney, Nancy, Once you take
• 47:46
  Speaker 11: that tape down, it is open season. At that point,
• 47:49
  Speaker 11: any attorney worth their salt can argue, hey, look, anything
• 47:52
  Speaker 11: can be planted in there. You want to know, real
• 47:54
  Speaker 11: big evidence of this and the carelessness that was taken
• 47:57
  Speaker 11: with the scene. I'll always go back to this is
• 48:00
  Speaker 11: when you see that blood deposition on the on the
• 48:04
  Speaker 11: surface of that portico area there, Nancy. The one thing
• 48:08
  Speaker 11: you always see and you can see the purpse standing
• 48:10
  Speaker 11: on it like there, Look at that, Look at that
• 48:12
  Speaker 11: standing on that mat, Nancy. We saw images of that
• 48:16
  Speaker 11: mat adjacent to the blood. They did not collect that
• 48:21
  Speaker 11: mat the first time out. You know, I sit there
• 48:24
  Speaker 11: and I think of it. Does your mind work? You know?
• 48:27
  Speaker 11: That's that's that's crimsone one oh one. Why was not
• 48:30
  Speaker 11: the mat collected at that point in time? Because you
• 48:34
  Speaker 11: have any number of things that can be transferred onto
• 48:36
  Speaker 11: that surface. I hope somebody went back and collected it.
• 48:39
  Speaker 11: But once you've taken the guard, the guardrails down. At
• 48:42
  Speaker 11: that point in time, it's open. Anybody can walk up
• 48:45
  Speaker 11: and take a photo. Anybody. It can be argued in
• 48:47
  Speaker 11: court that you can plant stuff at that point in time.
• 48:50
  Speaker 11: It is paramount that you protect that scene. And there's
• 48:53
  Speaker 11: just by virtue of the fact that you did not
• 48:56
  Speaker 11: value that mat anymore uh than they obviously didn't. Then
• 49:03
  Speaker 11: you're at risk here from losing valuable evidence. And anybody
• 49:06
  Speaker 11: can have access to it. Any lawyer worth their salt
• 49:09
  Speaker 11: can say, yeah, stuff was planned, they secured it, they
• 49:12
  Speaker 11: took the tape down. Lord only knows who got in there.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: What is an electrostatic lift?
• 49:19
  Speaker 11: Okay, So what you're doing with this sheet of my
• 49:23
  Speaker 11: law is that you're actually placing a charge on that sheet. Okay.
• 49:28
  Speaker 11: And as you place that charge on there, what happens
• 49:31
  Speaker 11: is it attracts, It attracts underlying dust particles, lifts it
• 49:36
  Speaker 11: onto that sheet, and boom, it's permanently there.
• 49:39
  Speaker 12: Okay.
• 49:40
  Speaker 11: So you for and this is the beauty of it,
• 49:43
  Speaker 11: for a moment, for a moment, you have frozen in
• 49:46
  Speaker 11: time that image of that shoe impression that's there. Now
• 49:50
  Speaker 11: here's the trick. Can you take that image that you've
• 49:53
  Speaker 11: frozen on that sheet, okay, and take it back and
• 49:56
  Speaker 11: compare it? Well? Can you profile that footprint? Can someone
• 50:01
  Speaker 11: that is a footprint expert say, okay, we're looking for
• 50:03
  Speaker 11: somebody that pronates superinnates. Can we categorize the shoe print?
• 50:08
  Speaker 11: Can we say, okay, this manufacturer created this sole. Okay,
• 50:13
  Speaker 11: and you can say whatever manufacturer you know, insert company there,
• 50:16
  Speaker 11: all right, and if you can begin and again, as
• 50:19
  Speaker 11: you know, Nancy, with investigations, it's a big investigative funnel.
• 50:22
  Speaker 11: You want to try to narrow, narrow, narrow, and narrow
• 50:24
  Speaker 11: at all times. We want to try to exclude as
• 50:27
  Speaker 11: much stuff as we more stuff. We want to try
• 50:30
  Speaker 11: to exclude as much as we possibly can to narrow
• 50:32
  Speaker 11: our field. Can they take images, for instance, of those
• 50:36
  Speaker 11: shoes that we see right here captured at the scene
• 50:39
  Speaker 11: in the steel shots. Can they profile those shoes and say, okay,
• 50:43
  Speaker 11: this is the manufacture of those shoes. Automatically you've narrowed
• 50:46
  Speaker 11: your field. And can you say, if you do the
• 50:49
  Speaker 11: electrostatic lift, can you say, is it a possibility, is
• 50:52
  Speaker 11: it a possibility that that particular brand is shoe could
• 50:55
  Speaker 11: leave this kind of impression. Well, now you have really,
• 50:59
  Speaker 11: you know, kind of on tune your target area at
• 51:02
  Speaker 11: this point in time. The trick now is to find
• 51:05
  Speaker 11: out who belongs to those shoes, who was wearing those
• 51:08
  Speaker 11: shoes at that point.
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: I know it works in a lab, but given the
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: fact that the general public could go right up onto
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: her porch and how many people from the Sheriff's office
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: were in and out of the home on the interior.
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: I don't know that we can get this type of evidence.
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: There's still a chance. Straight out to Dave Mac joining
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: US Crime Stories investigative reporter, what can you tell me
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: about re emerging video of the interior of Nancy Guthrie's bedroom,
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: which I'd like to point out has a window right
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: there on ground level. You can look right into and
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: see her bedroom, the layout, everything, how close for her
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: bed is to the door, the window, the works. What
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: is this, Dave Mac.
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: What you're seeing is when the Today Show went they
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: were trying to show the closeness of Savannah Guthrie with
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: her mom, Nancy, and showing this side of Nancy Guthrie,
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: the mom showing how she taught Savannah to make a
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: bed and that's why you see her doing the corners there.
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: But what this was done in an effort to, you know,
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: make it more personable and connecting with their audience. But
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: what it's showing is that is her bedroom, Nancy Guthrie's bedroom,
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: and she's been in this home since the nineties. She's
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: been in the same bedroom, same layout ever since. So
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: as you pointed out, the window is right there. We
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: are looking at Savannah Guthrie's mom, Nancy Guthrie in the
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: room with the bed might been pulled out of the
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: night she was kidnapped, and.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: We see what she keeps on her bedside table and
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: more hate. Dave Matc Megan Kelly found this and brought
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: it to everyone's attention. When was that taken? When was
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: that shoot? From our friends at Today with missus Guthrie, it.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: Was in twenty thirteen.
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: Because I started to say, she's getting around really well
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: and does not seem to have any mobility issue. But
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: you know, many years have passed since then. Let's take
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: a look at that video again, because whoever searched Savannah
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: Guthrie's salary in Nancy Guthrie's home address may very well
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: have pulled up video just like this. What clues can
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: we glean from this video? A lot? A lot from
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: our friends at Today to Joseph's got Morgan professor forensics,
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: what do you learn from this.
• 53:48
  Speaker 11: Just looking well, you look at the nature of the
• 53:50
  Speaker 11: flooring and it's really hard to kind of kind of
• 53:53
  Speaker 11: pick up and try to understand it has it changed
• 53:57
  Speaker 11: over that period of time. Is it a smooth kind
• 53:59
  Speaker 11: of sem me porous floor that we could go in
• 54:02
  Speaker 11: and collect anything relative to shoe prints? You know, one
• 54:06
  Speaker 11: of the things that you begin to think about is
• 54:08
  Speaker 11: that folks were saying that she was taken from her bedroom.
• 54:12
  Speaker 11: First off, I don't understand how they source that information particularly, but.
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: It certainly so because Savannah said it in one of
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: her plates, she said, my mom was taken out of
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: her bed.
• 54:24
  Speaker 11: Well, you have to take that. You have to take
• 54:27
  Speaker 11: that and utilize that as and I'm sure that they
• 54:29
  Speaker 11: already have because if she's saying that, that that's rooted
• 54:33
  Speaker 11: somewhere factually, so you're going to look at any kind
• 54:36
  Speaker 11: of physical evidence that might be associated with an outside
• 54:39
  Speaker 11: party that's there. And it could be anything from dusty
• 54:43
  Speaker 11: prints that are left behind by shoes, it could be
• 54:45
  Speaker 11: any kind of trace evidence, any kind of fiber evidence
• 54:48
  Speaker 11: where they're putting hands on somebody to move them around.
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: We also see that bedspread if she still has the
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: same one, and obviously an MBAT would have to be
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: used on that. It is a porous material to get
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: potential DNA straight out to Bria. It's Gibbons joining us.
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: He is Director Operations USP, a nationwide security leading a
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: team of investigators that specialize in missing people and go
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: around the world finding them rescuing them. Particularly, he has
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: an expertise and extractions from Mexico. He is a former
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: Marine and Iraqi war vet. Brif it's Gibbons, I can
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: learn a lot from that video, and so could anybody,
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: including the PURP.
• 55:34
  Speaker 9: Yeah, certainly, and we see that the PURP would have
• 55:38
  Speaker 9: access to this readily online. You know, is he looking
• 55:42
  Speaker 9: to see? Are their camera locations inside of the house,
• 55:46
  Speaker 9: are their avenues of entry or egress in that room?
• 55:50
  Speaker 9: And all of this should be caveat with the fact
• 55:53
  Speaker 9: that there was an incredible amount of tension drawn to
• 55:57
  Speaker 9: Missus Guthrie with Savannah's visit and the visit to that
• 56:01
  Speaker 9: restaurant that the FBI is now conducting interviews again with
• 56:05
  Speaker 9: restaurant staff.
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: At some point he reaches up to dismantle or up
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: the door camp.
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: I see black and gray work. I can see some
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: subtle shading on the edges.
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: And when he does that much is revealed. Joining us
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: now a special guest, Jeff Garnett, co founder Inkless Tattoo
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: removal Centers English Tattoo Removal dot Com. Jeff, I know
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: that you, like me, have studied carefully the porch guy's
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: wrist tattoo. Got a question for you, Jeff, Have you
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: ever been asked by a perpetrator to remove a tattoo?
• 56:57
  Speaker 4: Yes, actually we have.
• 56:59
  Speaker 12: We didn't know at the time that it was a perpetrator,
• 57:02
  Speaker 12: but in twenty twenty one, there was a shooting death
• 57:07
  Speaker 12: outside of a famous hotel in Manhatan and it was all.
• 57:11
  Speaker 4: Caught on surveillance camera.
• 57:14
  Speaker 12: The perpetrator his picture was shown on the news and
• 57:19
  Speaker 12: everyone kept commenting on the fact that he had these
• 57:22
  Speaker 12: full tattoo sleeves. Later the following week, a detective came
• 57:27
  Speaker 12: in and questioned us because they had arrested him and
• 57:31
  Speaker 12: they found our aftercare instructions in his car. So what
• 57:35
  Speaker 12: had happened is the shooting had happened, I think on
• 57:38
  Speaker 12: a Thursday. It was all over the news the following morning,
• 57:41
  Speaker 12: and that Friday he came into one of our locations
• 57:46
  Speaker 12: trying to get his sleeves removed. So we didn't know
• 57:51
  Speaker 12: at the time, but they were able to show that
• 57:54
  Speaker 12: that was his attempt to cover up the identifying marks.
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: So the video caught him with two full sleeves. Yes, wow,
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: okay in his car they found your after care instructions. Okay.
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: How long would it take to remove a full sleeve?
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: Jeff Garnett.
• 58:16
  Speaker 4: It takes a long time.
• 58:18
  Speaker 12: It's not an instant thing where you come in and
• 58:20
  Speaker 12: laser it and it's gone instantly.
• 58:22
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 58:22
  Speaker 12: We would all love for the technology to get there,
• 58:25
  Speaker 12: but we're not quite there at this point.
• 58:27
  Speaker 4: Probably at least a year.
• 58:30
  Speaker 12: There are a lot of variables, different ink colors, different
• 58:33
  Speaker 12: ink saturation levels, locations on the body, how healthy someone's
• 58:38
  Speaker 12: immune system is.
• 58:39
  Speaker 4: These are all factors that can impact it.
• 58:41
  Speaker 12: But basically the laser is breaking the ink into microscopic
• 58:45
  Speaker 12: particles that are much easier for your immune system to remove.
• 58:49
  Speaker 12: So we're pretty much just speeding up the natural fading process.
• 58:54
  Speaker 12: When I started doing this fifteen years ago, it would
• 58:57
  Speaker 12: have easily taken three years. The newer Pico technology it's
• 59:02
  Speaker 12: cut that in half, but it's still a year to
• 59:05
  Speaker 12: a year.
• 59:05
  Speaker 4: And a half.
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: Bolo be on the lookout for a mail trying to
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: have two full sleeves or at least one full sleeve
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: out of the Catalina Hills area removed back to Jeff
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: Garnett joining US co founder Inklass Tattoo removal Centers. So
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: it takes a long time to finally get a full
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: sleeve removed. Could you rush it? If someone said I've
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: got to have this thing off in forty eight hours,
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: could you do it? Is it physically possible?
• 59:40
  Speaker 4: Not with laser technology.
• 59:42
  Speaker 12: The only way to do it instantly would be a
• 59:45
  Speaker 12: surgical procedure called decision where they would have.
• 59:49
  Speaker 4: To cut it out.
• 59:50
  Speaker 12: And if that was a small tattoo, they'd be able
• 59:52
  Speaker 12: to cut it out and it would be replaced with
• 59:55
  Speaker 12: a scar, and that would be done by a pleasant surgeon.
• 59:57
  Speaker 12: If you're talking about a full sleeve, it would get
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 12: into skin grafts. It just wouldn't be possible. Laser technology
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 12: can remove that, but it's going to take a long time.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 12: Now we're assuming the has a sleeve, because you're seeing
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 12: that risk portion and it looks as if it's part
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 12: of a much larger tattoo. Could that small portion be
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 12: cut out surgically, Yes, it could, but there would definitely
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 12: be a large scar in the place.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: Once you have the tattoo completely removed, are there any
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: traces left behind. You have an example on your neck?
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 12: Correct, Yes, I used to have a tattoo right here,
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 12: and there's nothing.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 4: There's no scar tissue, there's no shadow or skin discoloration.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 4: You know, it depends.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 12: There's certain ink colors are easier to remove than others.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 12: But it looks to me like this is a black
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 12: tattoo on black ink tattoo, and black ink responds really
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 12: well so the laser. Black absorbs the full spectrum of
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 12: light from the laser, so usually black and can be
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 12: removed complete.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: It's a black and gray, which of course is just
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: variations on black, So you're absolutely correct. I'm just curious
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: what was the tattoo you had removed?
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 5: It was a bat.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 4: It was a silly bat hanging upside down.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: Behind me, a bat, as in the bat that flies
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: out of a cave and jumps in your hair and
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: tries to bite you. Correct, Okay, why did you have
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: a bat on your neck?
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 12: I tend to a lot of my tattoos are kind
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 12: of time stamps of different parts of my life. And
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 12: I had moved temporarily to Austin, Texas, and there's a
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 12: bridge in Austin that has about a million bats that
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 12: live underneath it and that dust they all come flying out.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 12: So that was kind of my Austin, Texas tattoo.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm not a shrink. I can't analyze that. I'll
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: just take it for what it is, for the promitive value.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: But why do other people have tattoos removed?
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 12: Typically, there's a wide range of purposes. Sometimes people get
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 12: a tattoo and don't like the way it came out,
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 12: so they almost immediately want to get rid of it.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 12: There's the stereotypical boyfriend and girlfriend get each other's names
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 12: and then break up.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 4: The most common one is people just outgrow it.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 12: You know, you get something in your teens, your twenties,
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 12: and then in your thirties and forties, your taste change and.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 4: You're a different person.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 12: But there also are some really more psychological reasons as well.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 12: You have really said things like victims of human trafficking
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 12: that have property of tattoos, and that's some of the
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 12: things that we do pro bono for people. You have
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 12: radiation tattoos for people cancer survivors from when they had
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 12: their procedures.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 4: So there really is a wide range.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 12: But the majority of the clients we see got something
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 12: when they were younger, they've outgrown it and their tasted.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: Person crime stories with Nancy Grace. Jeff Garnett is joining us.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: He is the co founder of Inkless Tattoo Removal Centers
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: with multiple branches. Be on the lookout please Jeff Garnett
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: full sleeve removal. That said, this leads me to another process,
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: that process being a I used to create a ransom note.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: But first before I get into that, with Christian Hammond
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: from Northwestern University, Dave mac, what can you tell me
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: about the last forty eight hours where the FBI descends
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: upon a Mexican restaurant to reinterrogate employees, a full two
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: days of reinterrogation.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: Nancy Guthrie and Savannah Guthrie out to dinner back in
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: November when the Today Show came to town and was
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: filming Savannah back in Tucson. They went to Elcharro, which
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: is their favorite Mexican restaurant. Well, the FBI has been
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: back in interviewing employees of the restaurant, specifically asking them
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: if they noticed anyone standing around, maybe trying to ingratiate
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: themselves with the cast and crew, anybody that acted weird.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: They were asking those types of questions of all of
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: the employees in the Elcharro, trying to determine if anyone
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: was there that shouldn't have been or was acting inappropriately
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: while they were there.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: From our friends at today, you know, I'm very curious
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: about their line of questioning to these restaurant employees, if
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: they saw anyone there that day that was unusual, if
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: anyone hung around, you know, to Bryphus Gibbons joining US
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: Director of Operations USPA Nationwides Security, that must have been
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: a memorable day for a lot of people. To have
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: a big star like Savannah Guthrie roll in, very memorable.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: So it's not just the employees. They're going to be
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: questioned about other people that were there that day to
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: watch the filming. I guarantee if it's Gibbons, they're going
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: to be asking does anybody have a son a black
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: sheep son? Does anybody have a bad seed brother in
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: law or son in law or cousin where the mom
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: comes home and says, hey, guess what happened today Savannah
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: Guthrie was there with her mother? Or guess what's going
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: to happen tomorrow? And what I want to do with
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: that brafitz Gibbons is overlay it onto that Google trend
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: search where someone thought to question Savannah Guthrie's salary and
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: in the same search the home address for Nancy Guthrie
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: and then connect that person to some one we may
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: find out about through the restaurant employees.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 9: Certainly a focus of those questions is going to be
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 9: who did you tell about this? Did you text anybody?
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 9: Did you call anybody? Am I able to look at
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 9: that text to see who? How did they respond?
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 9: It may not be that they're focused solely on that
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 9: restaurant employee, but who's on their periphery, who's in their
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 9: circle that they told about this event and they told
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 9: about miss Guthrie living in Tucson being connected to Savannah.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: So it's not just limited to the employees. It's who
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: they know, who they're related to, who may have been
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: in the restaurant at that time. The line of questioning.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: I'm very curious about what that is, what it means,
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: what we can glean from the FBI spinning not one
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: but two full days at the restaurant. So we believe, well,
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: there are two restaurants in play that we know of
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: right now. Of course, this is us on the outside
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: looking in, Brian. There is the restaurant connected to that
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: glove that was found about two miles from Nancy Guthrie's home.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: The glob was connected back to in a restaurant employee,
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: and that employee was cleared. There's that restaurant, and there
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: is the restaurant at which Nancy Guthrie at Savannah Guthrie,
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: let's see that video had the Arizona homecoming where Savannah
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: went back home and she was with her family. They
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: went to their favorite restaurant. They spent time in missus
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: Guthrie's home. Which restaurant are we talking about, Brian.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 9: We're talking about this restaurant that you see here. And
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 9: you have to remember this isn't Hollywood, right, this is Tucson, Arizona.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 9: So you have a film crew, Savannah Guthrie, a nationally
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 9: recognized TV show host, rolls into this restaurant. Be quite
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 9: an event for that restaurant and.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 4: The people there.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 9: And I think it's important to mention it's unlikely that
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 9: it was happenstance that an abductor happened to be in
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 9: the restaurant that day, you know, and saw missus Guthrie.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 9: The most likely scenario is that somebody who was there,
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 9: be it staff or a guest, actually communicated about Hey,
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 9: I saw Savannah Guthrie with her mother at this restaurant.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 9: Another thing that law enforcement is undoubtedly doing is looking
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 9: at the checks from that day. Who else was in
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 9: the restaurant, who paid with a credit card? What information
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 9: does the restaurant have about the other guests. And then
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 9: they're going to go out that one additional layer and
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 9: start asking everybody who was there who they communicated with
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 9: about this.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: Another possibility, Bryan Fitzgibbons, is surveillance video, if it can
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: be pulled down from the cloud, what was happening in
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: the part if there Let's just go with me on this.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: We know we have that video from a neighbor of
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: cars zipping by around the time that Nancy Guthrie's pacemaker
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: stopped connecting to the bluetooth in her home, you know,
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: two three o'clock in the morning. There are people heading
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: back and forth toward her home, toward that street. This
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: is from our friends at Fox News.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 13: By the way, we too have heard the reports about
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 13: a ransom letter in the media. As a family, we
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 13: are doing everything that we can. We are ready to talk.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: Joining me now, Christian Hammond, artificial intelligence expert. He is
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: a professor of computer science at Northwestern University. Again not shabby, Christian,
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: director of the Center for Advancing Safety of Machine Intelligence.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: I should thank you for being with us. What I'm
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: getting at is I'm narrowing down who I'm looking for.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: I'm looking for a guy, what do we say, jackie
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: between five nine and six feet five, at least one sleeve,
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: one full sleeve, likely two full sleeves. I'm looking for
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: someone that has that Ozark backpack. I'm looking for that receipt.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: I'm looking for someone from the Tucson area because they
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: have a soft spot for two Tucson TV networks that
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: maybe they grew up watching. I'm looking for someone that
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: has a knowledge of Nancy Guthrie and her home, maybe
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: maybe connected in some tenuous way, not necessarily an employee
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: of that Mexican restaurant. I believe we're looking for someone
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: that may have a criminal record. And now I'm looking
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: for someone that may have conducted that Google search we
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: talked about early on that looked for Nancy Guthrie's home
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: address and Savannah Guthrie's salary. Okay, that's a lot of data.
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: Christian Hammond, think about the ransom note. Could the purp
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: if the ransom note is in fact connected, have used
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: AI artificial intelligence to disguise their identity, Well, certainly.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 14: I mean the power of the power of the.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 5: Language models is that you can.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 14: Have them say something that you want to say, but
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 14: in a tone and in a cadence of words that
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 14: is not yours. And so you can certainly disguise yourself
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 14: that way, and you'll leave a little bit of a
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 14: trace doing so. But that trace is so minute and
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 14: is so washed out in terms of all the other
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 14: activity that's going on that it's it wouldn't be it
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 14: wouldn't be.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 5: Uh, you wouldn't be able to find it.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: And so yes, okay, Christian, we established earlier that year,
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: you know, light years ahead of all of us and
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: your mortals when it comes to this. I heard you.
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: I know what all those words mean, but in the
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: context of your sins, I don't know what you're saying.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: You're telling me that Google can look through trillions of
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: data points and they can find Nancy Guthries doorcam, and
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: they can resurrect like Lazarus video footage we thought didn't
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: even exist. Well, we listened to nanos. That was our
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: first mistake. But that said, and we can't put all
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: of these facts together and come up with that artifice.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: So intelligence request.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 14: Yeah, so finding finding the images is a targeted task.
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 14: That is, they know where they should be looking, they
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 14: know the features that are really important there. Uh, and
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 14: that really gives them a lot of constraints in terms
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 14: of what they're looking for.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 5: Uh.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 14: But when you're looking for an arbitrary query against a
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 14: language model where there are dozens of language models, some
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 14: of them are local, some of them anyone can use
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 14: of finding a tiny little.
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 5: Piece of a request.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 14: Is an untenable I mean, there's too much to search.
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 14: And in the midst of all this, there might be
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 14: other people who are going, I wonder what it's like.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 5: I wonder if you could generate.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 14: A a a ransom note. And so they're generating them
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 14: and we will find them as well. And so it's
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 14: we're really in a place where there's not an focus
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 14: uh to in terms of what we're looking for, uh,
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 14: to find the right thing.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 5: And I think it's uh. Actually, in the movie.
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 14: In the movie about about touring and all of the
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 14: work he done did in terms of decrypting, there was
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 14: a moment where once he identified a target that they
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 14: knew they could they were looking for a particular thing
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 14: in a particular in a particular message that gave them
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 14: the ability to figure out what was going on. But
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 14: if you don't have a target, uh, it's incredibly difficult
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 14: to find the right thing at the right time that
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 14: gives you the right.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 5: Kind of information.
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, Christian Hammond, you are the artificial intelligence expert. In
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: a perfect world, what would I need to track down
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: that AI request to write the ransom note?
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 14: Well, a perfect world would be that we would be
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 14: able to take a look at all those all the
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 14: logs of all the interactions trip.
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 5: Uh.
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 14: But that's a perfect world in terms of one thing,
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 14: and that's finding stuff. But it's not a perfect world
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 14: in terms of privacy, in terms of data leakage, in
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 14: terms of I'm feeling like I've been using a system
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 14: and I'm not telling it my entire life, and that
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 14: life will be shared with everyone. So there are I've
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 14: always been privacy issues. So even with the finding the
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 14: you know, finding the images associated with this particular.
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 5: Camera, there are privacy issues.
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 14: That is that she didn't have a subscription and so
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 14: they should not have been holding onto anything, but they
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 14: were getting to the all the camera, all the footage
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 14: associated with the cameras in her neighborhood.
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 5: That's a privacy issue.
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 14: That is that unless you've signed off for your camera
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 14: to be used, you can't use it.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 1: And so there's always this true Okay, I understand, So
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: there really is no perfect world in finding that AI request. Okay,
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: let me ask you this. Many people have suggested there's
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: a possibility of doing a retinal scam on the porch. Gud,
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: there's some great shots of his eyes. What do you
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: make of that? Let's see the shots.
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 14: Yeah, the the problem is is that they're they're good,
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 14: but they're not magnificent.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 5: So retinal scans usually.
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 14: Are done using infrared light to begin with, and they're
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 14: they're marvelous. I mean, they're incredibly powerful in terms of
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 14: being able to identify individuals.
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 5: But you need that as the target.
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 14: That is, if I'm if I've got a new if
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 14: I've got a new image and I could get a
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 14: retinal scan out of it, I've got to find I
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 14: have to have a thing to match it against, and
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 14: we we don't really have that.
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: The other thing is that even if there was enough data,
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: Christian to get the retinals scan, and you're saying it's
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: just beyond enhancing it from those images, we have to
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: have something to compare it too, Like fingerprints. You may
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: have a great fingerprint, but you got to ask somebody
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: to compare it too.
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 14: So he could leave fingerprints and DNA and footprints and
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 14: all sorts of things. But if they're if there's not
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 14: a target for us to match them against, it doesn't
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 14: help us unless we have him in hand.
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: Okay, Christian Hammond, I want you to go back to
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 1: your think take at Northwestern University and come up with
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: some answers for me. Christian Hammond, Jeff Garnett, Ryan Fitzgibbons,
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, and Dave Mack thank you for being
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: with us. Everyone. If you know or think you know
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: anything about the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, please dial toll
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 1: free eight hundred two two five five three two four
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: to remain anonymous five two zero eight eight two seven
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: four sixty three. There is a one point two plus
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 1: million dollar reward for information leading to the whereabouts of
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie. Arrest conviction not required. We wait as just
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: a sunfalls. Goodbye man,