Latest / The Nerdy Photographer Podcast / 134 - Framing History: Pete Souza on Photographing the Presidency and a Changing Media Landscape

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134 - Framing History: Pete Souza on Photographing the Presidency and a Changing Media Landscape · The Nerdy Photographer Podcast

0:04
Casey Fatchett: Hello, anybody in here? Oh, hey, welcome to the
0:13
nerdy photographer podcast. I'm your host. Casey Fatchett, if
0:16
you've never listened to the show before, welcome if you have
0:20
listened to this show before. Congratulations. You found your
0:23
way back. In addition to providing entertaining and
0:26
informative photography related info, I also go on adventures
0:29
with the crew of the starship Fibonacci. At the moment, I'm
0:32
trying to submit some images at this sector's intergalactic news
0:36
wire center, but there doesn't seem to be anyone here. Very
0:41
strange on this episode of the podcast, I interview the
0:44
legendary Pete Souza. Pete souza's photojournalism career
0:49
spans six decades, from small town newspapers in Kansas to
0:52
being one of the first people in Afghanistan after 911 Pete is
0:56
perhaps most well known as being the official White House
0:59
photographer for presidents Reagan and Obama. He has a ton
1:04
of stories and insights to share that whole conversation after
1:08
the break. You do not want to miss it now to see if I can find
1:12
someone to submit these photos to.
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Hey there, nerds. The nerdy photographer has a brand new
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Photographer.com/resources,
1:53
hello and welcome to the nerdy photographer podcast. I'm your
1:55
host, Casey Fatchett, and I am here today with main, legendary
2:01
photographer Pete Souza, who White House photographer for
2:05
both Barack Obama, Ronald Reagan, as well as part of a
2:09
Pulitzer Prize winning team. Pete, thank you very much for
2:14
being on the show with us.
2:15
Pete Souza: Hey, thanks for having me on Casey. I appreciate
2:17
it. No problem.
2:18
Casey Fatchett: And before we get started, we're going to roll
2:21
the dice breaker, and it is a 12 What is something small or
2:34
unexpected that brings you joy?
2:39
Pete Souza: Oh, that's an easy one. I have two small
2:49
granddaughters, and both of them, especially the two year
2:57
old, who is the smallest, brings me joy. That's great.
3:02
Casey Fatchett: I've seen you again other interviews and
3:05
talking about how you feel that your job now is documenting them
3:10
growing up.
3:13
Pete Souza: Well, that's part of it. It's also being involved in
3:17
their in their lives. There, there are times when that's more
3:24
important than documenting their lives, to be honest with you. So
3:28
I'm always trying to balance that, you know, documenting
3:32
their lives but also being present and for them and
3:37
interacting with them.
3:39
Casey Fatchett: I think that's a that's something that I've
3:41
personally dealt with. My wife and I were talking about it this
3:44
morning and last night, actually about the balance of because I
3:51
have a problem with when we're out, like we're traveling or
3:53
doing something, and I find myself in photography mode and
4:02
trying to pull back and just be in the moment. And I look this
4:07
whole last year, I've been working on projects that keep me
4:11
in the moment
4:14
Pete Souza: well, and I think that it's it's probably easier
4:20
now when they're younger. I mean, once they become older,
4:28
and you know, hopefully I'll still be around, I think, you
4:33
know, they probably will become more self conscious about the
4:38
camera and my taking pictures. But for now, it's, it's that,
4:45
it's just this is who they've grown up with me always with a
4:51
camera, and so they're very used to me doing it
4:56
Casey Fatchett: It feels very natural, and it kind of brings
4:58
me to my. I like first question, and I've heard you speak about
5:07
like, be you're seeing your role as a White House photographer,
5:12
as being a documentary documentarian. How do you, I
5:20
mean, maintain impartiality and stay present in those moments.
5:31
Pete Souza: Oh, boy, lot to unpack there. In terms of
5:35
articulating that, first, I would say that my background is
5:43
as a photojournalist. I have spent a big part of my career
5:50
photographing on staff at newspapers and then also
5:55
freelancing for magazines, in both cases as a photojournalist.
6:04
Obviously, when you're the official White House
6:06
photographer, you're working for the government, but it's not
6:09
like you walk in the room and suddenly are going about making
6:17
pictures any differently. I mean, I have an inherent way
6:21
that I make photographs, and that didn't change when I, you
6:28
know, became White House photographer. I'm still looking
6:32
for a moment composition, you know, candid photography, that
6:37
sort of thing. So in many ways, the only different approach is
6:45
that I was thinking of more photographs that were more
6:51
timeless. And you know, when you work for a newspaper, what's
6:56
your goal? Your goal is to have the front page of the newspaper
6:59
the next day. That's what you're striving for. You want your
7:03
picture to be the chosen to be the front page photo. You don't
7:11
have those thoughts when you're a White House photographer. I
7:14
mean, yes, the Obama administration did have an
7:20
Instagram account when Instagram came out, and they would use
7:23
some, sometimes use my photos right away. But I was thinking
7:27
long term. I was thinking about the historical aspect of what I
7:31
was doing. And I guess the maybe the one difference in my
7:38
approach would be if I were to go into a meeting in the Oval
7:43
Office, I'd still be thinking the same way I did as a
7:46
photojournalist, but I'd always try to make a few frames where I
7:54
can see everybody that's in that meeting, You know, for
7:58
documentation purposes, to have a visual record of, okay, who
8:03
was in this meeting. And I always thought it was important
8:07
to have at least, you know, a couple frames, even if they're
8:09
kind of throwaway frames, but that for the historical record,
8:14
you know, we can see everybody's in there
8:16
Casey Fatchett: who was here, who was the part of there, who
8:19
was part of this, yeah, I think that. I mean, I'm familiar with
8:25
your work, and I think if somebody mentions your name, the
8:28
first photo that comes to mind for me is the Situation Room
8:32
photo with with the bin Laden raid. And the thing that that
8:41
I'm curious about and is, when something like that is
8:46
happening, like you're talking about, are you in the zone then,
8:50
as a photographer, or is there some part of you that is that in
8:54
the back of your head is like, this is a moment historically?
9:00
Pete Souza: Oh, I think both. I mean, obviously the significance
9:05
of that day was such that, you know, I know it was a big day
9:12
for our country. Didn't know how it's going to turn out, you
9:16
know, because it could have turned out poorly. And that, you
9:23
know that my job and that and that on that day was just making
9:28
sure that I was, like, hyper vigilant in terms of everything
9:34
that was going on that day. I mean that the picture that you
9:37
talk about, we were in that the rate itself lasted 40 minutes.
9:45
But I was photographing, I think, 12 hours that day. There
9:48
were meetings before after, you know, and so, but I was hyper
9:54
vigilant as to everything that was taking place. I. Got so much
10:00
to say,
10:03
Casey Fatchett: whatever you want to say.
10:04
Pete Souza: I mean I just said that. I tried to make frames
10:09
where you could see everybody in the room, the picture that has
10:12
become the iconic one from when they were actually watching the
10:17
raid. That picture, it does not show everybody that was in that
10:22
room, because, compositionally, that I had a 24 millimeter lens,
10:30
which is very wide angle, and then I had a 35 millimeter which
10:33
is what that picture was taken with. 35 millimeter lens, the 25
10:38
was just too wide and it compositionally, it didn't
10:41
really work. I did make several frames with the 24 because I
10:48
wanted to see, I wanted, at least for historical record, as
10:51
I talked about, where you see, you know, everybody that's in
10:55
the room. But I kind of narrowed it down a little bit for the
10:59
photograph, I mean, because I thought it was the most
11:02
effective composition.
11:06
Casey Fatchett: But no, go ahead, I was gonna say like, so
11:10
in it makes sense that there's a that there's kind of like two
11:14
minds at play where you're like, Okay, I am not only just
11:20
documenting this, and in I've heard you speak of, you know,
11:25
Ansel Adams as a an influence in like making fine art out of
11:30
photojournalism. And what do you feel elevates an image from a a
11:44
snapshot, if you will, of what's going on, of what's happening in
11:48
the room, whatever, to that level of fine art
11:53
photojournalism.
11:56
Pete Souza: Well, I don't know if the bin Laden raid photo is
11:58
fine art.
11:59
Casey Fatchett: I'm saying it is. I'm not. I'm saying that
12:02
that is just like I think that there's something so striking
12:04
about that in the eyes of all the people on that shot, that is
12:08
what draws me into that photo and why it pops up and discuss
12:12
such a historical moment. But I'm saying,
12:14
Pete Souza: Well, and, and it, you know, the the, I think the
12:22
viewer feels what I felt, hopefully, and the viewer feels
12:28
what They were feeling, which was intense, anxiety and
12:40
nervousness, probably about what was happening. Because, look,
12:47
you had, yes, these are the most powerful, powerful people in the
12:51
executive branch of our government. They're all in that
12:54
room together, but in this moment, there's nothing they can
12:59
do to affect the outcome of what they were monitoring. It was,
13:04
you know, totally up to other people, meaning the Special
13:09
Forces guys on the ground. And so, you know, that's what I was
13:13
feeling. I know that's what they were feeling. And hopefully that
13:17
photograph captures that, you know, emotion. So to answer your
13:22
question, I mean, I think in this particular case, it's that
13:28
it this photograph provokes some emotion in the viewer, and I
13:35
think it puts you there with them in a unique way, despite,
13:44
you know, the lighting in that picture sucks. You know, it's
13:48
not, it's fluorescence lighting. It is what it is. I mean, it's
13:52
like, you know, and it's not even lighting and, and, but I
14:02
think the emotion and the moment overwhelms that. You know, you
14:09
mentioned Ansel Adams. I mean, Ansel Adams could not have used
14:12
the zone system in that room. Just wouldn't have worked.
14:16
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I think it's a common thread through
14:19
your work, I think is drawing the viewer into the experience
14:25
of that moment. Like there's a photo you have from like
14:32
firefighters outside, and it's like freezing in the the the
14:38
fire trucks are completely frozen over, and it just, I feel
14:43
like I'm drawn into that moment, and I can just feel how cold
14:47
that moment is. And I think that's, that's the sort of thing
14:49
that you're, you're, you're, there's an emotion, there's a
14:54
feeling that you're getting just automatically from those photos.
14:58
I.
15:01
Pete Souza: Yeah. I mean, I can remember that day like it was
15:03
yesterday, and that was in 1982 I mean, I remember how I felt.
15:09
And, you know, it was minus 26 degrees that day, and I I felt
15:18
like that picture shows freezing my ass off, and so, I mean,
15:27
that's, you know, there's a, there's a song by The Lumineers
15:36
musical band. I'm happy to be friends with those guys. But in
15:39
any case, they came, they came out with this record, their last
15:44
record, bright side. And there was a song called am radio, and
15:51
they had sent me an early mp three before it was actually
15:55
released. And I remember I was driving through the upper
16:00
peninsula of Michigan, listening to this mp three that they sent
16:04
me. And this song comes on for the first time. And there's a
16:10
line in the song that that goes, if the photograph doesn't bring
16:17
you back. And I swear to god, I almost drove off the road
16:21
because it, I mean, the song was about a relationship, and it
16:25
didn't really have anything, wasn't really about photographs.
16:28
But that line, the moment, yes, so speaks to me. You know,
16:33
Casey Fatchett: I mean to me as well. I think that I like to
16:36
tell people that photography is my favorite form of time travel,
16:41
because if it's good, it puts you right back in that spot, in
16:47
the moment people, the greatest compliment I feel is can feel as
16:52
a photographer, is if somebody looks at one of my pictures and
16:55
goes, I feel like I'm there. I'm that. I that. I feel like I am
17:01
in that spot. I don't know if you feel similarly,
17:07
Pete Souza: yeah, I mean, the, I can't remember, well, this came
17:15
up in, actually, in another podcast, which was the went,
17:20
when is still still photograph first struck me was after the
17:25
Kennedy assassination. I was eight years old, and a couple of
17:29
days later, I was watching live on TV as Lee Harvey Oswald, who
17:36
assassinated Kennedy, was being booked at the Dallas jail. I'm
17:42
watching this live on, you know, my parents little black and
17:45
white TV, and Ruby shoots Oswald, you know, as we all
17:49
know, I'm watching it, and I don't know what just happened.
17:53
You know, it was just kind of like, and then I saw the
17:56
newspaper the next day, and I saw blanket on his name. Guy
18:06
from Dallas times Herald photographed Bob Jackson nailed
18:10
the picture, and it's like, holy cow. You know, this still
18:15
photograph shows me what happened, whereas the video that
18:21
I was watching showed me nothing. So that was the first
18:24
time where the power of the still photograph really hit me
18:29
in a powerful way.
18:33
Casey Fatchett: I think that there's a moment in history that
18:35
I that I also have, that the Challenger explosion like, is
18:41
the same sort of, like, I don't know, a feeling of, we were
18:48
watching it in school when it happened, and then they just
18:50
shut the TV off. Like, there are teachers just shut the TV off,
18:55
rolled the TV out, and didn't say anything about it. You were
18:59
in the White House during the Reagan administration. At that
19:04
time, I think that, like afterwards, the the images I
19:08
remember, the cover of Time was the was just a picture of the
19:15
explosion, and just the in that his that that moment has lived
19:22
with me since then, since I think I still have that copy of
19:27
the magazine somewhere, which,
19:31
Pete Souza: yeah, I mean, and for you, imagine I was Working
19:40
in the Reagan White House. Reagan did not watch it live. I
19:44
mean, if we go back to that that year, I mean the launch, shuttle
19:51
launches had become somewhat routine. You never want to say
19:54
routine, but, and this one had been delayed a few days, and
19:59
then it. And then the day of the launch, it was delayed a few
20:02
hours. And so they, you know, he wasn't going to just sit in
20:07
front of the TV for five hours waiting for it to launch. So he
20:11
went on with his business, and then heard that the somebody
20:15
came in and told him that the, you know, there'd been an
20:18
explosion, and he went back to the little TV in the private
20:23
dining room, and that's when I walked in and got pictures of
20:26
them watching the replay of the explosion. And that's an
20:33
emotional picture too. Matter of fact, the the the, if you know
20:41
all I should say, start out every picture that that White
20:47
House, official White House photographer captures, whether
20:51
it was on film during Reagan or digital during Obama, every
20:54
single frame ends up at the National Archives so that day,
21:00
while they're watching the replay of the Shuttle explosion,
21:06
I remember I was down low with a 28 millimeter Leica lens, and at
21:15
one point, as it right after it exploded, Reagan closed his eyes
21:21
for quite a while, like 15 or 20 seconds, and not in his head,
21:29
but I think he was saying a prayer. But when you looked at
21:34
the pictures, it looked like he was it looked like it was a
21:39
blank, you know what I mean. So we chose another picture where
21:44
his eyes were open. But when you mind, the emotion for me was was
21:52
a picture that has never yet been seen. You can go to my
21:56
proof sheet at the Reagan Library and see that frame.
22:01
Casey Fatchett: So sometimes, sometimes the still image fools
22:04
you, exactly. I got a question about the process there. You
22:10
brought it up a little bit that every frame goes to the National
22:13
Archive. You photograph presidents in two vastly
22:18
different technological eras, from Reagan with film to Obama
22:24
shooting digital. And you've mentioned that, like, a lot of
22:27
the like, people didn't see rig the photos from all the photos
22:30
from the Reagan presidency until years later, whereas we were
22:34
getting them in the Obama White House, were like you mentioned,
22:40
they had an Instagram account, and things are going on on
22:42
social media, and you're seeing them, I don't know, the same
22:45
day, and probably in some cases, but like, what is that? What was
22:48
that process difference, like, from shooting film to digital as
22:53
they like, is there a team of people who were behind the
22:56
scenes who were processing your film, or, like, taking your
22:59
cards? Like, how does that work? I'm just the technical nerd.
23:03
Part of me wants to is curious.
23:07
Pete Souza: Yeah, let's start with Reagan. Reagan, we shot all
23:11
film. Michael Evans, who was Reagan's chief photographer
23:17
during the first term, had made the decision, decision to shoot
23:22
color negative film. That was a decision that was made before I
23:28
got there. I subsequently, when I came in the middle of the
23:35
first term within, I don't know, a year or two, I started also
23:38
shooting black and white film, because I just felt like the
23:42
presidency. What that you know, in my mind went along with black
23:46
and white film. All of our film was processed at a navy lab.
23:53
They all had, you know, the proper clearances, and so that's
23:58
where the film was processed. If the Press Office wanted to make
24:05
a picture public, you can imagine the process like the
24:10
film's got to go to the Navy Lab, which was not on the
24:13
premises. It was five or 10 miles away. Send the film there.
24:20
They process the film. They make proof sheets. They send them
24:24
back to the White House. That in itself is, you know what, three
24:28
hours, maybe, yeah, something like that. And then photo
24:35
editor, Carol green and Walt at the time, would choose the
24:41
frame. The best frame? Show it to think I just lost my
24:48
connection here. Show it to the press office. They would sign
24:54
off. We would call the lab, say, can you make five prints? Five,
24:59
eight by 10 prints? Prints. Think how long that takes. Color
25:03
prints, they then come back to the White House, and then the
25:07
five prints are handed out to, you know, the AP, Reuters,
25:12
whoever you know, Time Magazine, what, whatever. So that was the
25:17
the process. It did not happen that often. Where we would do
25:24
what was called a photo release. But that was essentially the
25:29
process for the Reagan administration, for Obama, there
25:39
was, well, I should say there was no such thing as social
25:42
media or a website during rain. For Obama, there was white
25:47
house.gov which was a, you know, a website. So we, usually, the
25:54
people that are in the website might want a picture, I don't,
25:56
wouldn't say every day, but almost every day. And then we
26:00
started doing behind the scenes albums at the end of every
26:07
month, and the process for that was myself and photo editors
26:16
with on my team would choose those pictures we would show
26:21
them to somebody in the press office, and then we would post
26:25
them publicly. So that's sort of the way the process worked. If
26:30
they the press office, the White House Press Office wanted to do
26:35
a photo release right away. Obviously, with digital you
26:41
could do that within, you know, a half hour. I mean, probably
26:45
less if, if you had to, if
26:47
Casey Fatchett: you really needed to. I got questions, it
26:50
seems like, and I think it might, we might be tricked into
26:54
it because of digital. It seems like you had unprecedented
26:59
access to Obama and the Obama White House versus like what we
27:05
see of previous was, but it feels like maybe that's because
27:09
of technology.
27:13
Pete Souza: I don't think so. I you know, we didn't we didn't
27:18
make any pictures. We didn't do any of these albums, these
27:23
behind the scenes albums, until, I think it was the fourth or
27:28
fifth month of the administration, because I was
27:32
trying to wrap my head around what the communications office
27:36
was wanting to do. It was like, this was a whole new thing to
27:41
me, yeah, and I was the holdout. I was, you know, believe it or
27:47
not, because I was trying to figure out, okay, how is this
27:50
going to work? And, you know, if we do this, I was like, I am
27:57
going to curate the photos I didn't want, like somebody in
28:00
press office, going through all my photos, and, you know,
28:06
choosing like, oh, Obama smiling in this picture, let's use this
28:10
one. That kind of thing is like, no, if we're going to do this,
28:13
then we're going to do it the right way, you know, which is
28:16
show people exactly what is happening. I had as my chief
28:23
photo editor at the time, Alice gabriner, who had been the
28:28
director of photography at Time Magazine, one of the best photo
28:32
editors in choosing images you know, of anybody in the country.
28:36
So, you know, it was a very professional photo journalistic
28:40
look is but, you know, obviously, if you're a
28:44
government photographer, it's not photojournalism, but that I
28:48
wanted that kind of feel to what pictures we were making public.
28:53
Casey Fatchett: So this, this brings me to another question,
28:58
how do you feel that the technology has changed, is
29:05
switching out back into like journalism, as opposed to
29:08
documenting. The presidency. But how the technology has changed
29:14
journalism, specifically photojournalism, access like we
29:20
can turn around images very quickly. We can, you know, that
29:23
we don't have to worry about, like, different film speeds in
29:26
our cameras. You know, there's, there's just a, how do you feel
29:29
that it has impacted journalism?
29:35
Pete Souza: I don't know that I'm the right person about this.
29:38
Other than I would say, I think there's some good things about
29:41
it. There's some bad things about it. You know, I happen to
29:46
be, I happen to cover the early part of the war in Afghanistan
29:52
in 2001 and we technology was such that. Digital cameras were
30:01
good enough for newspapers. They weren't great. They were good
30:04
enough. So with a digital camera and a satellite phone, you know,
30:14
I was working for the Chicago Tribune, they could publish my
30:18
photos the next day. You know, that was kind of like the first
30:22
war zone where that was, that was the technology was such, so
30:29
that's probably a good thing, where people were getting a, you
30:33
know, immediate view of things. The yeah, the bad thing? Well,
30:48
just just an observation, more than I'll let, rather than
30:52
render an opinion, if you were to take any, let's say, any
31:02
president, presidential event right now, and you were to look
31:07
at within two hours, you know, either getty images or
31:15
Associated Press, you would see, like 150 pictures from from that
31:25
event, whereas when we were shooting film, there was a lot
31:32
more editing. When I say editing, I mean choosing of
31:38
images that took place and you would only see three or four
31:44
pictures. So now it's like, we're so overloaded with the
31:50
number of pictures, it's it's hard to like, process out
31:55
process in many ways.
31:57
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, it's saturated. In a sense, we're
32:00
visually saturated. I think that, I mean, just the also goes
32:07
into the 24 hour news cycle of just like, you know, everything
32:11
is happening. So you don't have time to to sit with an image
32:17
like we used to
32:21
Pete Souza: You know, let's take the attempted assassination of
32:25
the current president when he was running for, you know, the
32:31
picture that you know, everybody used was, you know, him raising
32:36
his fist up, which was kind of like, you Know, he took
32:41
advantage of a, you know, of a terrible situation where he
32:44
almost got killed. And I remember the first time I saw,
32:49
you know, I went through all the pictures online, and I saw Anna
32:53
moneymakers picture of just seconds after he had been shot
32:59
at, and he's down on the ground on all fours, and there's this
33:05
look of angst you just can feel. You know, this guy's just been
33:11
shot, and it's, to me, it's such a raw image. I know the image
33:15
you're talking and nobody used that picture. Everybody used
33:20
what I thought was just like, I don't know, I don't want to say
33:26
safe picture, but you know, to me, that other picture was the
33:30
one that, if you really think about it, to me, that was the
33:35
that was the picture.
33:36
Casey Fatchett: It told the gravity of the situation.
33:38
Absolutely, I know the image, yeah, it's, there's this,
33:42
there's a sense of, yeah, I wouldn't say sanitary. In the
33:49
the image that, like, the more distributed photo, seems to be
33:56
like a more of a, yeah, safe, I guess is the word that you're
34:02
Pete Souza: I don't know if it's safe. It's just that the the the
34:08
I mean, I would love to get I would have loved to have been in
34:16
the newsroom when, when editors across the country had you know,
34:23
were shown here the photographs that are possible. Which, which
34:27
one should we use? And seemingly everybody used the same one,
34:31
right, you know. And I would say, like, if I had been the
34:34
editor, I would have been argument for the other one.
34:36
Very, very, you know, I wouldn't let it go, because, to me, that
34:43
was the picture. But anyway,
34:44
Casey Fatchett: yeah, I think that what you're Yeah, it can
34:47
phase the the sever, the gravity of the attempted assassination
34:53
of a presidential candidate. It has more of a the in. Intensity
35:01
of how people felt in the moment. I think it goes back to,
35:05
you're talking about Jack Ruby shooting, Oswald, like that,
35:10
that moment, like they there's, there's the image that you're
35:12
talking about from there, is it? There's, there's far more.
35:15
Because I think I've seen the podcast where you talked about
35:18
the image, or they talked about, like, you talk about two
35:20
different photos. There's one that's like, that is very, seems
35:25
very sterile. There's not a lot, because it's like, just before.
35:28
And then there's the one you're discussing, where you really are
35:31
up close, and you're seeing the moment that Oswald gets shot.
35:34
And it's, it has, it's saying that image is saying so much
35:39
more. Yeah, you're a big proponent of local journalism,
35:44
having started in local photographer, what can we be
35:52
doing to promote more local journalism?
36:02
Pete Souza: Oh, man,
36:04
Casey Fatchett: I know that's a heavy question. That's a
36:09
Pete Souza: Yeah, I mean, I think that is a sad situation in
36:21
terms of journalism that staff staffs at local newspapers have
36:28
been decimated. And I think it's not a good thing for democracy,
36:40
to be honest with you, I don't know what the answer is. I just
36:47
don't know.
36:48
Casey Fatchett: I think about like when I was I grew up in
36:51
Michigan and and a small town, and we had the local, like
36:57
county newspaper, and then there was a tiny our tiny town had its
37:00
own little newspaper as well, and both of those have since,
37:03
like shuttered, like the county newspaper, the bigger one I
37:09
remember, you get a daily edition of the paper. And by the
37:13
time when my parents passed away in 2020 I remember going like,
37:17
the paper would show up and it was four pages and it's in half
37:23
of it was wire stories, and it reminded me of, you know, when
37:26
you looked at papers from the 1800s where you'd have, you
37:31
know, like, Oh, this is the, you know, San Bernardino story From
37:40
my like, is, it was all about like, you're only getting like
37:43
wire service stuff, as opposed to, like local news.
37:48
Pete Souza: And it's, I mean, it's, it's, you know, I grew up,
37:54
I mean, I started my career working for newspapers, and
38:00
it's, it's sad to see what's what's happened to all the
38:04
newspapers that I used to work for. As I said, staffs
38:08
decimated. And I think it hurts local journalism, obviously, and
38:16
I think it leaves a void and every community,
38:20
Casey Fatchett: yeah, knowing what happens to your what's
38:22
happening to your neighbors, start to feel more and more
38:25
isolated.
38:27
Pete Souza: Well, and I think, you know, this is my personal
38:29
opinion, but I think this was one reason why covid became so
38:34
political, is that, you know, the local, local newspapers were
38:39
not, didn't have the staff to really report on what was going
38:44
on. If we had found out, you know, that our neighbors and
38:47
friends were the ones that were dying and local newspapers were
38:52
were doing remembrances of them, maybe, maybe it wouldn't have
38:58
become so political, I don't know.
39:00
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, hopefully it would have as we transition
39:07
into, I think, a related topic, as technology is progressing and
39:17
we're seeing AI influencing visuals, as we talked about you
39:23
saying, like, just the bombardment of images that we
39:28
see now, like you're saying, like you're seeing hundreds of
39:30
images from any particular event, and just the you want to
39:35
use the word cacophony, because it explained, but I don't know
39:38
what visually that would be, of images, how do you feel, or what
39:44
do you think about how AI is affecting how people look at
39:52
visuals, how people are, whether they trust them or not, or
39:57
whether they you know. Are falling victim to fake images?
40:05
Pete Souza: Well, I think, I think we probably all are
40:08
falling victim to fake images. It's, it's something that the
40:14
photojournalism community is wrestling with. I'm not really
40:19
involved with that, but, but I'm keeping an eye on it, obviously.
40:26
And there have already been several news photographs, I
40:31
think, that have been faked in some capacity, whether through
40:37
AI or other means, and and yet at the same time. And you know,
40:42
like every photograph that I process now works its way
40:50
through Photoshop, it doesn't mean I'm like altering the
40:55
content, but with the click of a button, I can, you know, which
41:00
essentially is AI. I can tone a photograph so it looks good,
41:05
right? But if you take it a step further, you could also use
41:11
Photoshop to create a fake image very easily. And that's scary.
41:19
Casey Fatchett: I think what frightens me is that the bar has
41:22
been lowered, in a sense, like you look at like, you know,
41:24
we've talked about Ansel Adams like he was doing work in the
41:27
developing room and making toning changes and things like
41:33
that. Is, is one thing that's different than like, okay, we're
41:36
using AI to like it, you know, create a whole different thing
41:41
here that didn't exist. And I think that the fact that that is
41:45
lowered the bar for bad actors to create false images is what
41:52
frightens me, in that thought,
41:56
Pete Souza: no, totally and, yeah, it's become it's, it's,
42:00
it's become easier. The tools in Photoshop and other programs
42:04
have become easier to do exactly what you're talking about, which
42:08
is scary. I mean, I think that the the photo journalism commit
42:16
community has, you know, certain guidelines on what can and can't
42:22
be done. Right? You can adjust highlights and shadows and color
42:27
balance and dodge and burn and sort of like what we used to do
42:31
in the darkroom, all considered acceptable, but then removing
42:37
content or adding content is not acceptable in photojournalism,
42:43
right and now, the tools are so easy to to alter content that,
42:53
you know, it's,
42:56
Casey Fatchett: I think that we were, there's a necessity for
43:02
some sort of verification. And I think that I know that like, A
43:06
has already worked on, like, there's a, like, a stamp in
43:11
their images now that will show you what it this is what it
43:14
originally looked like, but, and I think that there are other I
43:17
think Canon's working on it as well, like they're, trying to
43:21
counter it. Hopefully we are able to like, reach that point
43:26
where that is, what is. There's an acceptance of because I feel
43:31
like I, you know, there's almost like I have to be skeptical of
43:34
anything that I see now, in some ways
43:38
Pete Souza: well, and I think that as a community,
43:41
photographers and the photo community really need to educate
43:46
the lay person. Yeah, because, like I said, every every image,
43:52
every image that we see, or 95% of them, have made their way
43:59
through Photoshop. That doesn't mean that they're altered,
44:03
right? You know, and I think that we use the word
44:08
photoshopped as a meaning that it's fake, right? When? When? In
44:15
fact, every, you know, every news photograph works its way
44:18
through Photoshop before you see it in newspaper or online,
44:22
right? That does not mean it's fake, right? That just means
44:25
it's been opened in that program the photographer has just did
44:29
highlights and shadows, you know, and color balance and sent
44:32
it off. That does not mean it's been quote, unquote, Photoshop
44:37
faked. It's just, you know, so I think we're not doing a very
44:41
good job of articulating that to the to the lay person.
44:48
Casey Fatchett: On a lighter note, I'm gonna, okay, I've got,
44:53
I created this. This specifically for you three
44:56
shots. Is there a shot? From an assignment in your career that
45:03
you wish that you had got. Is there one that, what's the one
45:07
that
45:10
Pete Souza: I mean, there's probably, there's probably many,
45:14
many, many, but the one that sort of like, you know, and I
45:20
think every photographer has gone through this there. So this
45:25
is back in the 80s when I was working for the Reagan White
45:31
House, and he was going to go out and throw the first pitch
45:36
at, I didn't remember Baltimore Orioles game or something or
45:42
other, and, you know, he was just not a natural baseball
45:47
player. So he goes out to the rose garden with one of his
45:52
staff and is like throwing a baseball, you know, like,
45:57
warming up. And I'm like, this, he's in his suit, you know. And
46:03
I'm like, This is awesome, you know? I just thought, like, this
46:08
is I got these great pictures of Ronald Reagan and Rose Garden
46:14
throwing a baseball, you know, nobody else is around. It just
46:20
had a really cool feel. And I remember going back to my office
46:25
in the White House to rewind the film and realizing that I have
46:31
not put film in the camera. You know? I mean, we've all,
46:36
probably every single photographer that shot film
46:41
back, back then, at some point, experienced that. But that was,
46:47
that was, like, really agony
46:50
Casey Fatchett: for me. Oh, man, like it, just like it. I'm
46:53
sitting here with, you know, the first film camera I ever owned,
46:57
and, and I'm thinking about, there the times when, like, it
47:01
slipped on the spool and just didn't, like, oh yeah, quite and
47:05
I went to rewind it, and I thought, no, it's rewound. And
47:08
then I open it up, and I'm just exposed half the role of film,
47:11
those those moments of that is that is something that I think
47:15
that can resonate with anybody who's shot film. Yep. All right,
47:19
so next shot, is there something? Is there a photo you
47:22
decided not to take when it was like, you use your judgment and
47:25
said, like, well, this isn't part of my job. This isn't or do
47:32
you feel like that? That's not that. That's never come
47:40
Pete Souza: Look, there were photographs that were difficult
47:45
to take. I mean, I'm thinking back during the Obama White
47:51
House where, you know, he's meeting with families privately
47:56
after, you know, mass shooting or some natural disaster, and
48:03
it's just so hard to make those photographs, but I always felt
48:09
that for, you know, for the historical record, it was
48:14
important that I do that. And I mean, you know, the families
48:20
knew that I would be there. They knew that we wouldn't make any
48:27
of the photographs public. But even still, those were really
48:33
hard photographs to make, but I felt duty bound to go ahead. You
48:39
know? I mean, there were a couple times maybe I could, if I
48:45
if I sense that the family did not work, if it was going to
48:51
upset the family in such a way, I wouldn't do it. But actually,
48:58
I don't know that that ever happened. I think most of them
49:03
understood. I'm sure there times in my career where I where I
49:10
didn't make a photograph. I can't think of one off the top
49:16
of my head, though,
49:17
Casey Fatchett: that's okay. So then my last question is,
49:20
because you are very much into the historical nature of it. If
49:25
there was any moment in American history that you could go back
49:28
to to cover as a photographer, what would it be?
49:39
Pete Souza: Well, I mean, I guess given my, you know, two
49:43
stints in the White House, I would say I would have liked to
49:49
have been White House photographer during the Lincoln
49:54
administration, you know, obviously a pivotal moment in
49:59
our history. And I. Um, I remember watching Steven
50:04
Spielberg's film on on Lincoln, and just like, that's all I was
50:10
thinking about. Oh my gosh. Can you imagine the still
50:15
photographs when he's wrestling with all these? Yeah?
50:20
Casey Fatchett: I mean, yeah, just the to be the fly on the
50:24
wall, I think there's, and to be able to document that. I funny
50:29
story. I actually used to work in the studio. I used to do
50:34
portraits in the studio where he had his portraits done in New
50:39
York City. Yeah, and it's like every time walking in there,
50:44
thinking about just thinking about being there in the same
50:49
space, is just, is just a It's a strange feeling.
50:54
Pete Souza: So we had the film Lincoln, we screened it at the
50:59
White House, and Spielberg was there. And then Daniel Day
51:05
Lewis, who plays Lincoln, you know, he was Lincoln, it was
51:10
like. And then after the screening, President Obama
51:15
invited some of the actors and Spielberg up to the private
51:21
living quarters of the White House, and it brought them into
51:27
the Lincoln Bedroom. And at one point there's a copy, one of the
51:33
signed copies, of the Gettysburg address in the Lincoln Bedroom,
51:39
and at one point, Daniel Day Lewis went over to look at it,
51:45
just him by himself. And I got made a picture of that, but I
51:51
had chills like as that took place,
51:55
Casey Fatchett: just the, there's a, I don't know the
51:58
energy is, yeah, energy is there. So as we sort of finish
52:06
up here, what advice do you have for photographers who are
52:14
looking to get into photojournalism, who are looking
52:16
to document history in this, hopefully, to try to, like, come
52:26
close to your level, but like, when they're starting out, what
52:29
are those the people, I think, that people always see, like,
52:31
the end results. They look at the photographers who you know,
52:36
are working in the White House, or they're, like, working on
52:38
major events, and they go like, Oh, well, you know, like they
52:41
just somehow materialized in that situation. And don't think
52:47
further back, like, where, like, you know, what are those first
52:52
steps?
52:53
Pete Souza: Yeah, I think it's hard these days. I mean, because
52:58
of the lack of opportunities at daily newspapers, which I think
53:03
is a was, was the way to really hone your skills. Learn about
53:13
photojournalism. I you know, I think newspapers were so
53:20
important, and being able to do that, and now we have so few
53:25
staff jobs that said, I think In general, I would urge
53:36
photographers to photograph every day. In order to get
53:47
yourself better photographically, I think you've
53:52
got to be out there every day photographing. You got to show
53:58
up. If you don't show up, you're definitely not going to make any
54:03
good pictures, right? You know, so and then, like, get do some
54:10
workshops. There's a host of photojournalism workshops,
54:16
University of Missouri, university Kentucky, Western
54:19
Kentucky. I mean, I could go on and on the Eddie Adams workshop.
54:25
I think all those workshops are invaluable in learning a skill
54:30
set on how to be a photojournalist. I think you've
54:34
got to be vigilant about the truth and the Don't, don't get
54:45
caught up in trying to, you know, we talked about AI, but
54:54
also in terms of, you know, don't as a photo. A journalist
55:00
Don't, don't direct your subjects. You know, learn how to
55:06
go to a news event or any situation and take some time to
55:12
figure out, okay, what is it that I want to show about what's
55:17
taking place in front of me, and be truthful about it, but also
55:21
be what's, you know, trying to decide what image, what
55:27
situation, is going to really show what I see and what I
55:33
understand, and I'm going to present to somebody else. And
55:37
that sort of goes back to, I think doing it every day, you
55:43
sort of learn intuitively how to do that. It's like, it's,
55:49
there's not like five bullet points. Here's how you become a
55:52
good photojournalist. You know, this is one that you got to.
55:58
Every person has to come to it in a different way. I think in
56:01
many ways,
56:04
Casey Fatchett: I think that there's what you maybe I'm
56:06
wrong, but I think what you're saying is also intention. You
56:09
have to come to it like, not just as like, I'm absorbing
56:13
whatever is coming at me. I'm also being intentional about
56:16
what is the story here, and what's what's happening, and how
56:21
I'm presenting it.
56:26
Pete Souza: Yes, exactly. But I think your, your intention also
56:30
has to be truth. Well, truth. I mean, sure, obviously it's your,
56:35
you know, we all have our I think if we had five
56:40
photographers go cover the same event, we might look at it
56:45
slightly differently based on, you know, our perceptions, our
56:50
background, the way we see. But you know, we're all looking
56:59
through that viewfinder. And the viewfinder, unless you're
57:04
shooting square format, that view finder for all of us is the
57:07
same. So what are you going to include inside that viewfinder?
57:11
You know, that's that's the key, key thing, and what are you
57:17
going to not include? That's basically what photography is,
57:22
right?
57:28
Casey Fatchett: There's now members only content on the
57:31
nerdy photographer YouTube channel that's right. Head over
57:34
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57:40
Episode Notes, go over, get a membership, and you will get
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58:17
Hey there, listeners, it's time for what I like to call a little
58:20
shameless self promotion. After years of planning and trying to
58:24
get this project done, I have finally launched my online print
58:28
shop. Yes, you can buy prints of my photos that way. You can
58:34
support a small business and the podcast at the same time. Just
58:38
head over to link in the Episode Notes and check it out. There
58:42
are photos from Scotland, Italy, France. There's wildlife photos,
58:48
there are amazing flower photos, and there are photos of the city
58:53
I called home for 20 years, New York City. So many pictures to
58:57
choose from, and they're more coming as I get the time to
59:00
process them and edit them and get them online. You can choose
59:04
from fine art prints, metallic prints, acrylic prints, and
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there are tons of sizes to choose from, whatever you might
59:11
need. So you know, what are you waiting for? Bring some beauty
59:15
to your walls and some inspiration to your life with a
59:18
print from my fine art print shop, just click on the link in
59:20
the Episode Notes. Go do it.
59:29
Hey. Now for my favorite part of the show, what's that? Say?
59:35
Useless information. This is always death. Pete, it's time
59:41
for our useless information for this episode. Oh, okay, how do
59:45
you feel about edible currency?
59:52
Pete Souza: What is edible currency?
59:54
Casey Fatchett: well, in the Aztecs and Mayans use chocolate
59:58
as currency. Oh. Salt and black pepper were considered a luxury
1:00:05
in the Middle Ages, so much so that they were used to pay rent
1:00:08
and taxes.
1:00:11
Pete Souza: Well, I think if somebody were going to send me
1:00:13
some chocolate, then, you know, I could, you know, deliver some
1:00:18
services for them. I don't know that I would like they, if
1:00:22
somebody wanted me to photograph their wedding, they'd have to
1:00:26
send me a lot of chocolate.
1:00:29
Casey Fatchett: The really, the really good stuff, not just not
1:00:33
off the off the shelf stuff. No, no, no. Pete, I want to thank
1:00:38
you very much again for being generous with your time coming
1:00:42
on the show. I really appreciate it. Where can people find you?
1:00:50
Pete Souza: Well, I I should direct them to my website, but,
1:00:54
you know, I haven't updated it in, like, I don't know, five
1:00:56
years or something. Pete souza.com and I'm fairly active
1:01:03
on, still on Instagram, which is at Pete Souza. I quit Twitter. I
1:01:11
don't really, I'm not really on Facebook, so probably Instagram
1:01:16
is where you will see a lot of my archive work that I kind of
1:01:21
post almost every day, and one of these days I'll get around
1:01:25
updating my website.
1:01:27
Casey Fatchett: Well, I'll include those links in the
1:01:29
Episode Notes for this. Pete, thank you very much.
1:01:33
Pete Souza: You bet Casey, thanks for having me on you.
1:01:40
Casey Fatchett: Hey, welcome back. I hope you enjoyed my
1:01:45
interview with Pete Souza, and I want to thank him tremendously
1:01:48
for taking the time to speak with me. You can view his work
1:01:51
at Pete souza.com or you can follow him on Instagram, where
1:01:54
he is very, very active at Pete Souza. And while you're
1:01:59
following Be sure to follow the nerdy photographer at the nerdy
1:02:03
photo on pretty much all the social media platforms that's at
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the nerdy photo, no dots, underscores or dashes, and
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subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss out on future
1:02:13
conversations with other amazing photographers. Oh, looks like
1:02:17
one of these computers is still on. Let me see if I can just
1:02:20
interface and download my images to the mainframe.
1:02:31
By order of management, there will be no news until further
1:02:35
notice. Well, that won't do now, will it? I guess we'll just have
1:02:41
to take distribution into our own hands until next time,
1:02:44
everybody stay safe and stay nerdy.
1:03:00
Unknown: Listen, who's your heart been beating about? Get
1:03:04
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