Latest / Pod Save America / “Impeachment, Lies, and Videotape.”

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“Impeachment, Lies, and Videotape.” · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: On today's pod, we'll break down the big moments from
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: the first few days of Trump's impeachment trial and talk
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: about a new report that suggests the insurrection... might be
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: causing voters to leave the Republican Party. How about that?
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Then Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal talks to Dan about the COVID
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: relief bill and the minimum wage. Also, check out What
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: A Day on Friday morning. Akilah and Gideon have Dr.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Fauci on the show. You don't want to miss that.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Check that out. That's tomorrow, Friday morning on What A Day. Finally,
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: we're having a President's Day weekend sale at the Crooked Store, Dan.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Everything is 15% off through Monday. It's like I'm a
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: car salesman. So head to crooked.com slash store. Check out
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: all the new merch. 15% off. President's Day weekend. All right,
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: let's get to the news. We are in day three
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: of former President Donald Trump's second impeachment trial. And the
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: House Democrats case has been... Even more damning than in
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: the first trial. Lead impeachment manager Jamie Raskin began day
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: one rebutting the defense argument that the trial of an
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: ex-president is unconstitutional by pointing out that we can't make a, quote,
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: January exception where presidents can get away with crimes during
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: their final days in office. Over the next several days,
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: the House managers used never-before-seen, sometimes graphic video, and Trump's
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: own tweets to argue that his months-long effort to overturn
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: an election he told his supporters had been stolen... led
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: hundreds of them to storm the U.S. Capitol, a terrorist
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: attack that left five dead and nearly resulted in the
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: mass assassination of most of our political leaders. There are
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: a lot of emotional moments over the last couple of days,
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: but for me, the most moving part was the close
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: of Congressman Raskin's opening speech on Tuesday when he spoke
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: about what happened when he finally found his family after
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: the attack. Let's play the clip.
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: And I told my daughter, Tabitha, who's 24, and a
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: brilliant algebra teacher in Teach for America. Now, I told
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: her how sorry I was, and I promised her that
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: it would not be like this again the next time
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: she came back to the Capitol with me. And you
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: know what she said? She said, Dad, I don't wanna
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: come back to the Capitol. of all the terrible, brutal
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: things I saw and I heard on that day. And
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: since then, that one hit me the hardest. That and
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: watching someone use an American flagpole with the flag still
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: on it to spear and pummel one of our police
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: officers ruthlessly, mercilessly, tortured by a pole with a flag
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: on it that he was defending with his very life.
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: People died that day.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: What were your reactions watching the Democrats lay out their
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: case over the last few days? Maybe you can talk
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: about both the manager's argument and maybe separately the use
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: of all the audio and video footage.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: I have to admit that while I always... believed that
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: impeachment was the right and only course for the Democrats
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: to go through. I was very sort of skeptical of
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: even watching it because I was just frustrated by the
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: futility of it. Just like the previous impeachment where I
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: sat in front of the TV for hours, as we
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: all did to watch that trial, knowing that the jury
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: was rigged. Yet when I sat down to watch it,
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: including Congressman Raskin's presentation, I was riveted by it. It
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: really sort of brought me back to the moment we
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: were all sitting in front of our TV on January 6th,
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: watching sort of in horror and shock and fear as
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: something that we didn't really imagine would happen in America
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: in this day was happening before our eyes. People's lives
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: were in danger. The Capitol was being taken over by
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: a mob. There were people flying the Confederate flag in
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: the United States Capitol. A building that you and I
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: both worked in where we have friends who currently work
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: and people we know, reporters who cover it. But even
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: though that was only five weeks ago, I have felt
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: like the emotions of that day had grown somewhat attenuated
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: with the distance and our very weird pandemic social media world.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: And that brought me right back to that moment is
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: just how scary it was. That was. The argument, and
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: I think that's what the video clips certainly did more
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: than anything else. The video they used to open with,
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: the video clips that were the security footage that was
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: then used in day two, all were a reminder of
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: just how scary this was and what it felt like
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: to be watching it on that day. The argument is.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: Open and shut. It is like this is not even
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: it is an absolute embarrassing farce that there is even
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: a question as to whether not just two thirds of
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: the Senate, but the entire Senate isn't going to vote
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: for this. This is a man who very clearly and
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: very obviously incited a violent insurrection and sent a mob
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: to kill the people who work there. And now many
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: of the people who work there who came with it,
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: as we now know, within milliseconds and inches of being
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: the victims of that mob, will vote to acquit the
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: person who did it just because.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, we talk a lot about politics here
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: and political implications, and I don't know if this impeachment
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: trial will have any political implications whatsoever over the long
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: term or the medium term or the short term. But
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: sometimes you just do things because it's the right thing
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: to do. And I had that feeling watching the impeachment trial.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: It's just, it is just the right thing to do
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: to remind a country that has a very short collective memory,
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: shorter with each passing day, that this horrifying event took
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: place and that this man was responsible for this event.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: And this man that who continues to be part of
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: public life, who has thought, who has contemplated running for
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: office again, for the same office again, a party that
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: is still loyal to this man. Like, I had forgotten
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: over just a month. I pay attention to politics every
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: single day. I thought that January 6th, when I was
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: watching it unfold, was maybe one of the angriest I've
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: been throughout the whole Trump presidency, the most terrified I've
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: been throughout the whole Trump presidency. And that feeling always,
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: had already escaped me over the last couple of weeks.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: So I think it was, I think the country should
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: be reminded often that this happened on January 6th, let
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: alone one impeachment trial. So, you know, I'm very, I'm
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: glad that the Democrats did this and the Republicans who
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: voted for it as well in the House. And I
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: think the managers did an outstanding job sort of putting
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: this case together, which as you say is, it is
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: an open and shut case, but You know, we're speaking
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: on Thursday morning and we still have the defense lawyers
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: are going to bring their case. We'll talk about how
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: they've been doing so far in a second. But look,
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: they're going to they're going to say the riot was terrible.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: It was an attack. You know, Ted Cruz walked out
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: of the chamber yesterday and said this was a terrorist
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: attack on our country. Their argument is, how can you
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: blame Donald Trump? It was just he had some overheated rhetoric, but.
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: is it really his fault that this happened? He said
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: a few times, go home. He said a few times,
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: be peaceful. So can you really blame him? And I
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: think what the managers have done over the course of
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: the last several days is not only just made a
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: very emotional and powerful case using that audio and video footage,
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: but they also anticipated every single potential defense that could
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: come from Trump's defense team and just swatted it down.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: Swatted it down with Trump's own tweets, with footage, with
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: comments from other Republican officials, with comments from other White
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: House officials. I do think it was a pretty, pretty
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: powerful case.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if you were someone who went into
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: this with an open mind, then it's just, it's impossible
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: for me to fathom how you could not walk away
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: from this thinking that Donald Trump is guilty.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: And the choice that they made, which I thought was
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: interesting and smart, was that they made the case for
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: incitement much bigger than Trump's speech at the rally. They've
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: got Trump telling people the election was stolen over and over.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: They showed other instances before January 6th of Trump mobs
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: intimidating public officials because of those lies. Trump sees the
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: danger in that, doesn't care, excuses it in the case
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: of it happening to Gretchen Whitmer, the governor of Michigan,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: excuses the people that did that at the Michigan state capitol,
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: keeps telling lies, helps organize the rally. They've got rioters saying,
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: I'm here because of Trump. The president invited us to
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: be here. The president wanted us us to storm the Capitol.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: That's what they showed today. And then a huge part
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: of the case yesterday on Wednesday is what Trump did
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: during the attack. Because part of his defense might be, well,
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: I didn't intend for it to get out of control
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: like that. Well, if that's the case, why are there
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: Republicans and White House officials on record saying that Trump
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: was pleased and excited by the attacks? Why didn't he
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: listen to Republicans who were calling the White House from
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: the Capitol pleading him to tell his supporters to go home?
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: Why did he send a tweet, a tweet attacking Mike
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: Pence after he learned that Mike Pence's life was in danger?
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: A tweet that was then read aloud through a bullhorn
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: by the rioters outside the Capitol. They read through a bullhorn,
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: a Trump tweet attacking Mike Pence after Mike Pence was
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: carried out of the Senate chamber because they were trying
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: to fucking hang him. Like I just, and I do
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: think like, because it was all sort of in the,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: in the fog of war and we were watching, watching
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: it all unfold that day, sort of hard to keep
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: track of everything that happened. And I'm sure if you
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: were a Senator or a house member who was in that,
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: in the Capitol, it was probably hard to put together
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: what was going on outside and what was going on
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: in other parts of the Capitol. And I do think
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: the House managers did a really effective job connecting all
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: the dots in a real logical order so that the senators,
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: if they do have an open mind, which I'm sure
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: many of them do not, would be able to understand
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: perhaps for the first time just how extensive the attack
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: was and how much Trump had to do with it
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: both ahead of time and how much he refused to
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: stop it during the attack itself.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, just embedded in the various exams you give
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: are what would be smoking gun pieces of evidence if
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: this were a normal criminal trial and not a political
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: process with a rigged jury. The Mike Pence example is
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: the best one. Only Donald Trump thought that Mike Pence
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: had the power to stop the election. This was not
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: a talking point amongst a bunch of different legal scholars.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: This was just some weird thing that someone told Donald
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: Trump that he got in his head. And he said
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: it to this very group of people that morning before
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: they marched to the White House. That is the piece
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: of evidence. And then these Republicans come back and they say, well,
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump gave this video where he told people to
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: go home. Now, once again, neither of us are attorneys.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: We will not be confused for constitutional law scholars by most,
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: I guess. But here's one thing I do know about
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: the law is that if you set a fire– and
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: then afterwards begrudgingly put it out under pressure, you are
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: still guilty of arson. And so the fact that after
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: he incited the crowd and sent them to the White
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: House to hang his vice president, if he later told
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: them to go home, that is not exculpatory in some way.
• 12:51
  Speaker 5: No.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: And in fact, the House managers made the case this
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: morning that they have a couple of the rioters on
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: record saying, as soon as Trump finally said hours into
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: the attack, go home. Hey, everyone, we should go home.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: Trump just told us to go home. Before he told
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: us to come here. Now he's telling us to go home.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: So we should go home. Just proving that they felt
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: directed by the president of the United States, which of
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: course they were. So Donald Trump's defense lawyers responded to
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: these very powerful emotional arguments with Honestly, a performance that
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: makes fucking Rudy Giuliani sound like Atticus Finch. I mean,
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: it was just... His lead lawyer, Bruce Castor, you know,
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: known previously as the guy who declined to prosecute Bill Cosby.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: I don't know where they found this guy. I guess
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: they couldn't find anyone else. Bruce Castor kicked things off
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: with a 48-minute rambling speech where he didn't make a
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: cohesive argument about anything... but at one point did praise
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: the House Democrats' presentation, said that they did a great job.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: Here's a taste of what you may have missed from
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: Bruce Castor.
• 14:02
  Speaker 5: No, when you're driving down the street and you look
• 14:05
  Speaker 5: over at your wife and you say, hey, you know what?
• 14:07
  Speaker 5: That guy's about to drive through the red light and
• 14:09
  Speaker 5: kill that person. Your wife can testify to what you said,
• 14:14
  Speaker 5: because even though it's technically hearsay, it's an exception because
• 14:18
  Speaker 5: it's the event living.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: Through the person. Why?
• 14:22
  Speaker 5: No opportunity for reflective thought.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: Could you detect any kind of an argument there? Certainly,
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know what that was. I
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: literally don't know what he was referencing at all, what legal,
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: how that had any kind of connection to this case whatsoever.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: But like, Maybe we should try to answer, what case
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: was Bruce Castor trying to make? What was he supposed
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: to be making?
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: Great question, John. I am curious who Trump was in
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: that little story there.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: Is he the person- The guy driving, running through the
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: red light, the wife.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: The person incapable of reflective thought. Was that the point?
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: I did not understand that. There were two arguments, I think,
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: embedded in the- case put forward both by Bruce Castor
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: and then David Schoen, who did a slightly better job.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: I will say one thing about Bruce Castor, though. As
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: a general rule, if you were making a legal presentation
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: on national television and my cousin Vinny starts trending, not ideal, right?
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: That's a sign that maybe you missed the mark. But
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: the two arguments were– the first one was contradictory and
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: The House moved too fast in the sense that they
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: did not give Trump due process rights, which there's not
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: a thing that actually exists in the impeachment process. But
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: they moved too fast. But then they also moved too
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: slow because he is no longer president. And that is
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: ultimately the crux of the Republican case. that I think
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: it's a fig leaf these Republicans use to justify their
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: acquittal vote, is as a private citizen, as a former president,
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: he is ineligible for the impeachment process. And that process
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: was designed for presidents. Now, there is a gigantic problem
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: to that, which Congressman Raskin called the January exception. I
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: think of it slightly differently, which is essentially at the
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: core of the Trump legal team's argument is the legal
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: argument underpinning the plot of the movie The Purge. It
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: is this idea that there is a period of time
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: by which you can commit crimes with no consequences. Because
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: that's really what it's saying here because we just have
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: to put a fine point on it. Because these Republicans believe,
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: and it is the opinion of the Department of Justice
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: for decades, that a sitting president cannot be tried in
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: criminal court, cannot be indicted for crimes committed while they
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: are president. And that is because the Constitution has– prescribed
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: impeachment as the appropriate forum for adjudicating presidential crimes. Yet
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: at the same time, these people are saying that if
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: the crime committed while president that is ineligible for civilian
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: criminal prosecution is discovered after that person is president, then
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: they cannot face any accountability for it. And so what
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: it really does create, this is why the January exception
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: rule comment by Congressman Raskin arises, There is obviously a
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: period of a week, a few days, three weeks between
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: when a president is leaving office and when they have
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: left office where they can commit crimes because you can't
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: impeach them fast enough to hold them accountable for it.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: There's also just a glaring precedent here. Like Ulysses S.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: Grant's Secretary of War, William Belknap, was accused of corruption.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: He resigned in order to avoid impeachment. the House impeached
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: him anyway, and then he was tried in the Senate.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: Happened once before in history, wasn't unconstitutional, was very constitutional
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: because the Senate and the House decided that it was constitutional,
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: which is what you do around impeachment. Now, did they
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: address the Belknap case? Of course they did not because
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: they were saying God knows what. I did find it
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: very funny that a Trump advisor told Maggie Haberman, that
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: Castor was intentionally trying to reduce the emotion in the
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: room after the House manager case and said that what
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: he did was a deliberate strategy. I don't know if
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: the strategy succeeded. Even the Republicans cultishly defending Trump couldn't
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: defend Trump's lawyers who were criticized by Trump ass kissers
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: like Ted Cruz, John Cornyn, Alan Dershowitz. But of course,
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: we were told that Trump himself had scheduled a number
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: of meetings during the trial and Playbook reported before it
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: all started that actually Trump is pretty chill these days. He's, quote,
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: reveled in his silence on Twitter and, quote, finally realizes
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: less is more. So. What was Trump's super chill, less
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: is more reaction to his lawyer's performance, Dan? Well, one
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: person familiar with Trump's reaction told the New York Times
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: that on a scale of one to 10, with 10
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: being the angriest, Trump was an eight. So what happened
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: to this new Zen Trump? I don't understand.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: It's so funny that he left the presidency and decided
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: to take up meetings, something he did not do in
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: the White House. I mean, it's just, I mean, we could...
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: yell for days about people who would credulously and anonymously
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: report stuff about Trump's move that flies in the face
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: of everything we know of Trump over the last six years,
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: not to mention his decades of public life. That is embarrassing.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: I do think that the Trump legal case is somewhat
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: of a microcosm of what it's been like to be
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: a Republican who supports Trump this whole time with is
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: all you want is like the barest fig leaf to
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: justify your cowering at the feet of Trump. And then
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: Trump never gives it to him because he's so incompetent
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: or he just admits, you know, much like the last impeachment.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: But like, no, no, he didn't really he wasn't demanding
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: a quid pro quo. Trump's like, yes, I wanted a
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: quid pro quo. Like, that is what I want. That's
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: what a dealmaker does. They're like, oh, it's similar thing.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: Like all this is we get the Bill Cassidy. But
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: this is these robbers are frustrated because they couldn't even get.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: Something within the same universe is credible for a rationale
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: for acquitting Trump other than we just do what Trump
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: wants because we're Republicans and we think that's good politics
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: for us.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: So we, I think, appropriately made fun of the idea
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: that Trump has discovered some new kind of discipline in
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: his post-presidency. But do you think it is weird that
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: we haven't heard from him? Like, I realize that he
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: doesn't have his Twitter account. He has many other outlets
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: available to him to speak through. He has many friendly
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: outlets available to him to speak to. He could call
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: up his Fox and Friends pals, call up his pal
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: Sean Hannity, get a bunch of softballs. Do you think
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: that he's actually worried that he may say something that
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: could get him convicted or change some Republican senators' minds?
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: Or is he just lazy and doesn't want to talk
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: to the press?
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: It's probably a combination of fear of legal consequences and
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: I think that's probably– I mean, if you remember back
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: when there was the discussion about what Trump would do
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: if he was forced to testify or give an interview
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: to Mueller– And the people who had been engaged with
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: Trump in his pre-presidential legal shenanigans point out that his
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: mind focuses like a laser when it feels like he
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: might go to jail. A very diffuse, weak laser, but relative.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: It's all comparative. We're at a normal. And so it
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: could be that he has been convinced that the best
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: thing for him to do is stay quiet. And there
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: was probably a combination of things here. If he had
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: his Twitter account and he could get his message out
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: unfiltered– He probably would just do that. I think he's
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: probably avoiding helping Fox because he feels like he has
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: him a little bit over the barrel right now. I
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: don't know. I feel like I'm just on psychoanalysis of Trump,
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: and that's sort of what we argue against. But I
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: agree with you. It is bizarre that he has been
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: able to remain quiet in some way, shape, or form
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: for weeks now. He hasn't really given an interview to
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: anyone since the election, right?
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: No, not at all. I also think it's Twitter– announced
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: yesterday that they're going to continue the permanent ban on
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump's Twitter account, even if he runs for office again,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: which we may not get a conviction or a vote
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: to make sure he can't run again. But it does
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: seem like if he is permanently banned from Twitter, that
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: could make it pretty hard.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: Do you think you can run for, not to hijack
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: the very specific outline we did, but do you think
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: you can run for president if you're banned from Twitter?
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: We might find out. I think it's hard.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: Credibly run for president.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Here's why I think it's hard. A very small percentage
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: of the American people are on Twitter. We know that, right?
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: It seems like the world to all of us news
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: political junkies, vast majority of people are not on Twitter.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: Way more people are on Snapchat. Way more people are
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: on Facebook, right? It's pretty small. But every fucking journalist
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: in the world is on Twitter. And in that way,
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: Twitter sets the media narrative. And if you're not part
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: of that because and you're running for office and you
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: don't and you can't just speak how you want or
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: get a message out on Twitter, I think it could
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: make it difficult. Now, Trump has a vast right wing
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: propaganda machine at his disposal. And the first step, of course,
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: is to win the Republican primary. So if you're going
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: to win the Republican primary, do you need to be
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: on Twitter or can you just talk? through the right-wing
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: media ecosystem. You can probably do that. And then if
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: you win the nomination, then you do get attention because
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: now you're the party's nominee. So that's the path for him.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: I think it's probably harder if you're a Democrat running
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: for president.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: Oh, for sure.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: All you have is just, you're coming on Pod Save
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: America every day, right?
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, as you would have to, if you had
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: any hope of getting the nomination.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: As you would have to, just look at Joe Biden
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: right now. Okay, anyway, now we're way off track. Now
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: we're way off track. Back to Trump's lawyers who not
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: only pissed off their client, they actually pissed off a
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: Republican senator so badly that he switched his vote to
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: join five other Republicans and 50 Democrats in affirming the
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: constitutionality of the trial itself. Bill Cassidy of Louisiana told
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: reporters on Tuesday, quote, if I'm an impartial juror and
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: one side is doing a great job and the other
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: side is doing a terrible job on the issue at hand,
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: As an impartial juror, I'm going to vote for the
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: side that did the good job. Imagine that. What a refreshing,
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: weird thing to hear. Cassidy's vote did not go over
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: very well with the Louisiana State Republican Party, which released
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: a statement on Tuesday saying they were, quote, profoundly disappointed
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: in the senator. Do you think Cassidy's explanation of why
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: he did it is the truth?
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: I think what you just quoted there is why he
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: did it. I do believe that. I would just note,
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: it is not how trials work. It's not a performance.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: It's not America's Got Talent for lawyers. It's like whoever
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: presents the best argument, whether they do it coherently or not. Now,
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: the Democrats presented the better argument here, but his reasoning
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: was stupid. I think he did not think about this
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: very much. I bet his staff learned he was going
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: to vote this way at the exact same time we did.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: The other senators who voted in the previous iteration of
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: this constitutionality motion to table vote thing, I think all
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: spent a lot of time thinking about how they were
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: going to vote and they made a calculation for why
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: they were going to vote for it. Cassidy, I think,
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: just was like, these guys are a bunch of yahoos
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: and I'm going to vote for it. And I do
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: believe him when he says, this tells you nothing about
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: how I'm going to vote on the actual verdict. So
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: I think it was a little bit of a reaction
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: to the poor performance of Trump's attorneys, just the weakness
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: of their argument and the emotion of seeing what happened.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: I did. Do you see Doug Jones's tweet about this?
• 26:27
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. He was shaking.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there was it was he was responding to some
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: reports about all of these Republicans who were very moved
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: by by and startled and shook by these images of
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: their colleagues almost being killed by this mob, but we're
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: not going to change her position. And his tweet was shaken,
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: but not stirred, which I thought was perfect. And Doug
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: Jones free on Twitter without the constraints of running in
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: a deeply red state. I'll take it.
• 26:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: There's your, there's your upside. You get to make a
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: joke on Twitter. There are also some reports that Bill
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: Cassidy may retire at the end of this term. Um,
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: which would be another reason he's would not be as
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: concerned about the politics, but if he doesn't, then, then
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: good for him. The politics we should point out are
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: not great for Republicans doing the right thing here. Uh,
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: data for progress did a poll the other day, 69%
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: of Republican voters said they'd be less likely to vote
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: for a political candidate. If that person found Trump guilty
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: in the trial, you look at numbers like that and
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: you're a Republican Senator. And you think, okay, maybe it's
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: the right thing to do to convict him, but I
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: would easily lose a primary with numbers like that. And
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: if I did vote to convict, there's not enough of
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: us to actually make it real. So is it just
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: a waste of my time doing that? I mean, from
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: a political standpoint, can you blame them for thinking? I mean,
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: I can certainly blame them and do blame them from
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: a moral, ethical standpoint, but They probably have the politics correct, sadly.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: Yes and no. Yes, it is true that the politics
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: are currently that and the political downside for a Republican
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: voting to convict in most cases is to greatly exceed
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: the upside. But there's also an element of a self-fulfilling
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: prophecy here, which is that no one has tried to
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: make the other argument. They all allowed the election, the
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: big lie about the election to fester. They promoted it.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: Almost all of them. There's a small handful of scriptures. Remember,
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: most of these people would not refer to Joe Biden
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: as a president-elect for like six weeks. And then they're
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: like shocked that their voters think the election was stolen.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: I guess it's really self-fulfilling short-termism to how they approach this. Yes,
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: it's true, but they have not tried to make the
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: opposite argument. They haven't tried to move the party away
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: from this level of radicalization. They have just constantly fed
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: into the radicalization because that's what benefited them in the
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: five minutes in front of them as opposed to thinking–
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: five months, five years, 10 years down the road. And so, yes,
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: that's what the politics are, but the politics are that
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: way because they have allowed them to be that way
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: because they haven't had the gumption to actually do anything
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: about it.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: And I will say the most contemptible Republican senators are
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: the ones who don't have to face voters again and
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: are still voting that the trial is unconstitutional or to
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: exonerate Trump, like Rob Portman of Ohio, who announced that
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: he's not going to be running again and yet still
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: voted that the that the trial is unconstitutional, which is
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: complete bullshit. And Rob Portman knows that he's a smart
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: guy and not going to face voters again. So he
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: can't use the political excuse just to to vote that
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: way anyway so there is just when you think maybe
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: it's all this political pressure for these so no some
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: of them just do the wrong thing because they're assholes
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: that's it So no other Republican senators aside from the
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: six who voted in favor of constitutionality have given any
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: signal that they might vote to convict. That includes Mitch McConnell,
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: even though Bloomberg has reported and Politico has reported that
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: sources close to McConnell say he hasn't yet made up
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: his mind. There we go. Team Mitch out there spinning
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: reporters again that Mitch McConnell still hasn't made up his mind.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: I think those sources are full of shit. What do
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: you think, Dan?
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: It's just, it's so embarrassing for the people who wrote
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: that story. It is so embarrassing. It's how many times
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: you're going to go to the same well and look
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: like an asshole over and over and over again.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: Why are you, why are you continue letting fucking Josh
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: Holmes and the other fucking team Mitch assholes out there
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: spin you? Don't let them in fucking embarrass you like
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: this just because they want to still be part of
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: the establishment and they want all their fucking K street
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: buddies and all the rest of it. Like, give me
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: a break. Mitch McConnell, like, There is reporting that like,
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: you know, in that Bloomberg report that, you know, McConnell
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: has told every senator to vote their conscience. What do
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: you think Team Mitch's strategy is here? They're trying to
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: like make sure he has it both ways so that
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: he's not crossing Trump and the Trump base, but also is,
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: you know, doing enough to try to get corporate donations
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: back in the party? What do you think they're trying.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: To do here? That is exactly right.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: He is trying to- They want the money back.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: They want the money and they want the MAGA base.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: He's trying to find a way to navigate that because
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: he needs to raise tens, hundreds of millions of dollars
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: in super packed money from very wealthy people and corporate
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: interests to hold onto the Senate. And many of those
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: corporate interests are very uncomfortable with what happened on January
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: 6th and since then. And some of them have stopped
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: giving to Republicans. Some of them have stopped giving to
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: both parties, which is really fucking stupid. We're so angry
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: about what Republicans are doing that we're not going to
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: help Democrats get elected is a very, very, very short-sighted
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: way of thinking of things. And so he's trying to
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: have it both ways. And he is successfully having it
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: both ways right now. It's exactly what he is doing.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: He has created this fiction that he is trying to
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: rid the party of Trumpism while also doing everything he
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: can do, enable the party's continued affiliation with Trumpism?
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: If Mitch McConnell decided tomorrow that he was going to
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: vote to convict Donald Trump, it wouldn't ensure conviction, but
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: it would absolutely open the door to a bunch of
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: other Republican senators potentially convicting it. Mitch McConnell has that power,
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: and he just is choosing not to use it. And
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: that is a choice he has made. So where do
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: we go from here? Like, do Republicans just get to
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: acquit Trump? Wait a few days for everyone to forget.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: Then move on to whining about Joe Biden not taking
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: the deficit and bipartisanship seriously. And that's that.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what's going to happen.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: Cool, cool, cool, cool.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, there is an element of defeatism that can
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: come from this process, as it did from the last impeachment,
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: where you have a president who does something that is
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: clearly wrong, clearly worthy of removal, clearly criminal, and gets
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: away with it. And Republicans want to weaponize that to
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: make you feel like your vote does not matter, your
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: participation does not matter, because cynicism is the greatest ally
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: to conservatism, because they will do better if our voters
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: tune out of the process. And I think we have
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: to take the long view about what to do here, right?
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: Which is, this is one step, and it is a
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: painful step and a frustrating step in doing two things.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: The first is making the Republicans pay a political price
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: for everything that they have done over the last many,
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: many years. And that next opportunity comes in 2022. And
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: we have to bring the same sort of long term thinking,
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: the same sort of enthusiasm and organizing and investment to
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: the 2022 elections that we brought the 2018 elections because
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: they are proving to they're making the case for why
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: the stakes are just as high even when Trump is
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: not in the office. And the second what is, is
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: that what is happening before us, if presuming the Republicans
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: vote to acquit, is yet another crystal clear example of
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: how broken our democracy is. And you see it in
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: the polling where it says 56% of the public wants
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: Trump to face removal and the consequences come from it,
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: and 44% think he should be acquitted. In a normal
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: functioning democracy, that would be really bad news for the 44%.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: But 44% is basically what you need to hold on
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: to the Senate and be within spitting distance of the
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: White House with our rigged politics. And so we need
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: to take what is happening here and use this argument
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: for the things we care most about, including the For
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: the People Act, voter expansion, democratic reform, and do all
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: of that. That is where we go from here. And
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: being defeatist and cynical about the outcome only aids those
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: who are seeking to shield Trump from any sort of accountability.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: I also think A fiction still exists that among certain
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: Democratic politicians that a lot of Republican senators, Republican House
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: members can be dealt with, reasoned with, negotiated with. And look,
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: in fairness, you know, Joe Biden was accused of believing
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: that fiction during most of the campaign. I think the
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: actions of the administration so far have showed that he
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily believe that.
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: And that his view of unity is bigger than just
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: the politicians in Washington and involves the whole country. So
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: that's good. But I think people like Joe Manchin, Kyrsten Sinema,
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: who are still sitting there thinking, yeah, we can work
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: with Republicans and we can get big things done and
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: we don't have to get rid of the filibuster. I
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: saw reports that Joe Manchin was fairly outraged with being
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: reminded of what happened and Donald Trump's role in it
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: over the last several days. And maybe if you're Manchin
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: and you're Sinema and you're sitting there And you're watching
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: these Republicans just go on and acquit Donald Trump. You
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: think to yourself, maybe we can't work with them, you know,
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: and maybe this isn't what does it. But it certainly
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: builds the case that something fundamentally is broken with the
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: Republican Party, that these aren't just people who can't sit
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: down and negotiate over tax cuts and deficits and whatever
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: else anymore, that they are protecting someone who incited an
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: attack on democracy. And that is much bigger than just
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: having a difference with the other party. So there are
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: other consequences that could come from this. So don't despair.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: There's one other way to hold Trump accountable now that
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: he is a private citizen. The district attorney in Fulton County, Georgia,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: has opened a criminal investigation into efforts made to influence
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: the results of the presidential election in Georgia. As you
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: might remember, Trump threatened Georgia election officials. He asked them
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: to find him more votes. He abused his power in
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: a desperate attempt to overturn the results in that state.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: We all remember that. Well, now Fulton County DA Fannie
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: Williams has asked state Republicans to keep documents related to
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: the investigation, writing in a letter that doesn't specifically mention Trump, quote,
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: This investigation includes, but is not limited to, potential violations
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: of Georgia law prohibiting the solicitation of election fraud, the
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: making of false statements to state and local government bodies. conspiracy, racketeering,
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: violation of oath of office, and any involvement in violence
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: or threats related to the election's administration. Gee, who could
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: that involve? What is this case or this potential investigation
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: opened by the Fulton County DA into what happened around
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: the election in Georgia? What does that mean for Trump
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: going forward?
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: Well, it certainly could mean that there will be discovery.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: Trump could be subject to subpoenas. He could likely at
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: some point be required to testify. Now, I'm sure that
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: all of the people who are currently arguing that Trump
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: cannot be impeached now that he's not president also cannot
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: be convicted for actions he committed while president, but it
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: is a state case. So that argument's a little bit
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: harder and the DOJ opinion does not apply. But it is,
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: Trump faces, and just put aside what's happening in the
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: Senate right now, Trump faces an array of incredibly challenging
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: legal problems. Go for it. He has got what's happening
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: in New York State. He's got his businesses, his foundations
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: under investigation. But this is him. This is Donald Trump
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: himself being investigated for a crime of which he is
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: on tape committing. And if they were to proceed and
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: an indictment were to happen, he's going to have to testify.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: He would potentially face trial. What the legal penalties are
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: and whether they're throwing a book at Donald Trump, are
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: we going to see him frog march down a Mar-a-Lago?
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: Who knows? But it is deeply concerning. And it is
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: one of the reasons why The idea that Donald Trump
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: is most definitely running for president in 2024 I think
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: is sometimes a little ahead of its skis because the–
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: I mean he has a lot of problems to traverse
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: between now and when it comes time to start showing
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: up at an Iowa pizza ranch again.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: So yeah, no. I think he could have some problems.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: So the other consequence that may come from not only
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: this impeachment trial but sort of the insurrection– that is
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: the cause of the impeachment trial, is for the larger
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: Republican Party. Some news on that front from the New
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: York Times yesterday. Across just the 25 states that report
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: party registration data, almost 140,000 voters have left the Republican
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: Party since the attack in January. Now, it is normal
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: for parties to shed some voters after an election, especially
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: the losing party. But this is significantly more than the 79,000
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: voters who've left the Democratic Party over the same period.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: Republicans have lost more than 12,000 voters in Pennsylvania, nearly 8,000
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: in North Carolina, and more than 10,000 in Arizona, where
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: Biden won by around the same amount. A Gallup poll
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: on Wednesday also showed that only 37% of Americans now
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: have a favorable view of the Republican Party, a decrease
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: over the last few months that gives the Democratic Party
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: a double-digit advantage on favorability, with 48% of people approving
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: of Democrats. Is this just noise? Is this what happens
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: to a losing party? Or is this a more notable shift?
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: What do you think?
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: I think we need to know more about who these
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: voters are. Are these.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: Romney, Clinton, suburban Republicans who voted for a Democrat in 18,
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: voted for Biden and are shifting. Are they more moderate
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: voters who are angry that Trump engaged in an insurrection?
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: Or are they more conservative, more MAGA voters who are
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: angry at Republicans because they didn't help with the insurrection?
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: In which case, now, even if it's that, even if
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: it's the latter- We saw what happened in Georgia in
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: the runoffs. These could be voters who are big Trump fans,
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: pissed about how the Republican Party handled the insurrection and
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: think that they're not sufficiently defensive of Donald Trump. And
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: they might be dropping out of the party and dropping
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: out of politics altogether.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the latter is more concerning for Republicans
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: than the former.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: Right, right, right, right. And some of it could be,
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: you know, a CBS poll released this week found that
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: 70% of Republicans would consider joining a new political party
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: founded by Donald Trump. Now- There was a reporting from
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: Maggie Haberman when this was first raised a couple of
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: weeks ago that Trump quickly decided that a third party
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: wouldn't be the best idea because if he founded a
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: third party, it would be hard to stick it to
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: Republicans during Republican primaries that he wanted to punish.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, yes, that is true. But the primary reason
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: why he's not starting a third party is the same
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: reason why he's not starting a television network or a
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: social media company is he's lazy and lazy.
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Work.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: Work is the greatest impediment to Donald Trump doing anything.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: I think it's hard to know what this is all
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: going to mean. There was a lot of reports about
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: the Republican Party falling apart after Obama won 2008. He
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: won a surprisingly large share of Republican voters. The party
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: consolidated around Republicans in opposition to Obama. The thing we're
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: going to need to know about these people who have
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: left the Republican Party is, are they not voting? Are
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: they voting for Democrats? Or are they just independents who
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: vote for Republicans? Because the traditional thing here is, When
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: you use an election, a bunch of people quit the
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: party and they become independents, but they remain Republican voters.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: They're either independents or what you would call an NPA
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: or a nonpartisan affiliation. And this has happened so often,
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: which is why incumbent presidents almost always lose the independent
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: vote share when they run for reelection. Because it's not
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: that they became less popular, although that may be part
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: of it, but that the pool of independent voters just
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: contains more people who profile as members of the other party.
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: Obama won by a huge percentage of independents in 2008,
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: lost by I think one or two in 2012. But
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: it is very clear the Republicans are divided in a
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: whole bunch of fronts here, and that presents a political
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: opportunity for Democrats. So I'm not trying to pour water
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: on the parade or whatever the right metaphor is.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: And the other thing we don't know about these voters
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: who have lapsed is we talked about it from the
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: perspective of Were they happy with the insurrection? Were they
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: upset about the insurrection? It may not have to do
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: with the insurrection at all. There was a couple of
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: voters who spoke to the New York Times about leaving
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: the Republican Party. One of them talked about how they
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: were upset that the Republican Party wouldn't back a $ 15
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: minimum wage. And Democrats did, which brings up, you know,
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: the possibility that some of these voters are potentially who
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: are leaving the Republican Party are potentially open to Democrats
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: and if Democrats propose certain policies, have a certain agenda,
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: look like they're fighting for them. Ezra Klein tweeted last week,
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: one thing you really see in the Romney child allowance plan,
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: Romney proposed, I think, $ 4, 000 per child, is that all
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: those studies saying social issues split the left and unite
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: the right, but economic issues unite the left and split
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: the right are true. What do you think about that?
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: I think that's exactly right. It's not– and I think
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: we should be very clear. It's not an argument that
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: Democrats shouldn't talk about social issues. We absolutely should. We
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: have to. Our voters care about them. They're important. Reproductive rights,
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: civil rights– Voting rights.
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: Immigration.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: Immigration, right, are under tremendous threat from this Republican Party,
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: and we have to talk about them. But when we
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: think about how we're going to make the case against Republicans,
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: there are some very obvious economic wedge issues here. Donald
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: Trump had more success with, quote unquote, working class voters
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: in a multiracial way than any Republican in a very
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: long time. Now, it's all bullshit, and we know that,
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: but he was able to sort of sell this populism
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: He is banned from Twitter and therefore apparently doesn't exist anymore.
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: And so the Republican Party is embodied by a bunch
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: of congressional Republicans whose two primary goals in life are
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: cutting Medicare and Social Security to pay for tax cuts
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: for corporations. And so you would imagine that there is
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: some opportunity for Democrats to go get some of the voters,
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: go get back some of the voters who supported Obama
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: over Romney when the economy was the centerpiece of that
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: election that we lost in the years to come because–
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: this version of the Republican Party is not what they,
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: at least we believe incorrectly, imagine Trump's version of it
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: to be. So I think there are real opportunities there.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: And we really have to think very strategically and creatively
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: about what are our economic wedge issues that we can use.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: And the $ 15 minimum wage must be high on that list.
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: Another proof point here, Donald Trump was impeached twice. incited
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: an insurrection against the Capitol, did all kinds of just
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: heinous shit over the last four years. The two moments
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: he was least popular, his approval rating was the lowest
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: out of four years, was trying to repeal the Affordable
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: Care Act and passing a tax cut for the rich.
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: That was where he was least popular, more so than
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: the insurrection itself, which does tell you about the opportunity
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: Democrats have to put forth an agenda that that speaks
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: to working class black Americans, brown Americans, white Americans, and
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: hopefully build a multiracial working class coalition in this country
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: that can help split the Republican Party and sort of
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: exploit some of the divisions that exist in that party
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: right now.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: And that's going to require actually achieving some of the
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: things we ran on, which is why figuring out a
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: way to to ensure we get this $ 15 minimum wage
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: done as part of this bill is absolutely critical. Because
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: talking about it, the way people view politics right now,
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: talking about it, but not achieving some of those things
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: is not going to work for us. We're going to
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: have to achieve some of those things and then put
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: Republicans appropriately and correctly on the other side of those issues.
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: And people are going to have to feel the change
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: in their lives. We can't just tell them we achieved it.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: They're actually going to have to feel it. All right. Well,
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: you're going to talk a lot more about all these
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: issues with Our next guest, Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal. We'll hear
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: that after the break.
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: I'm now joined by Washington Congresswoman and Chair of the
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: Congressional Progressive Caucus, Representative Pramila Jayapal. Thanks for coming back
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: to Pod Save America.
• 47:22
  Speaker 4: Thank you. It's always great to be with you.
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: There are a number of important victories for progressives over
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: the last week or so in the efforts to pass
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: the COVID relief package. I want to start with the
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: minimum wage. This should be intuitively obvious, but I think
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: for many of the folks in the media and for
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: certainly the Republicans, there's a question about why a permanent
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: change to the federal minimum wage should be included in
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: an emergency relief package. Could you help explain the logic
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: behind that?
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely. So We are in a time where low-wage workers,
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: frontline workers, essential workers who are amongst the you know,
• 48:03
  Speaker 4: disproportionate share of minimum wage workers are really struggling. They're
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: taking the brunt of the pandemic. They, in many cases,
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: have had their wages cut because of high unemployment. They've
• 48:14
  Speaker 4: had their hours cut. And so we're in this moment
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: where we have to recognize the disproportionate impact that COVID
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: had on low wage workers, many of whom are people
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: of color. And so it was really fabulous to have
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: President Biden come out strong when he first came into
• 48:31
  Speaker 4: office by saying we needed to include a minimum wage
• 48:36
  Speaker 4: increase in this package. Remember, it's been 12 years since
• 48:39
  Speaker 4: the federal minimum wage has been increased. And in that time,
• 48:44
  Speaker 4: over 30 states have started to pass some sort of
• 48:48
  Speaker 4: minimum wage increase. I'm of course proud that I come
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: from Washington state. We were the first state in the
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: country to index minimum wage to inflation back in 1998,
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: which meant that at least your wages had to grow
• 49:00
  Speaker 4: at the rate of inflation. That's not true for most
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: of the country. And so a federal minimum wage increase
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: to 15 over five years, I would like it to
• 49:09
  Speaker 4: be quicker, but that's where we are, would lift up
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: 30 million workers, the wages of 30 million workers. It
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: would lift up a million workers out of poverty And it.
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: would put $ 330 billion back into the economy over the
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: next 10 years. Why is that important during COVID? Because
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: when you raise the wages of the lowest wage workers,
• 49:30
  Speaker 4: they plow it right back into the economy, right? They're
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: buying food to put on their table. They're going to
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: frequent small businesses. And that money is going to help
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: those local communities also, and those local businesses also to
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: do better. And so this is absolutely the right time
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: to do this. And, you know, we had to fight
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: to get it in, Dan, but it's in. And, you know,
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: I assume we're going to talk a little bit about that,
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: but this is the time to go big and bold.
• 49:59
  Speaker 4: And this is a structural change that is long overdue
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: necessary in the moment and also will survive beyond COVID.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: The opponents of not just a federal minimum wage increase,
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: but the actual idea of a federal minimum wage have
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: latched onto this CBO report that claims that 1.4 million
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: jobs would be lost through the passage of this legislation.
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: That seems patently absurd to me and seems to fly
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: in the face of the experiences of places that have
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: raised the minimum wage to $ 15. What's your response to that?
• 50:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we had a hearing and a markup in Education
• 50:34
  Speaker 4: and Labor that went for almost 14 hours the other night.
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: And this, of course, was the argument that they kept making. Now,
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: first of all, the CBO report, I could tear it down.
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: I could spend the entire podcast tearing it down. It
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: is a shoddy piece of work, in my opinion. And
• 50:48
  Speaker 4: it is very different than the report that the CBO
• 50:52
  Speaker 4: released just last year. But It is not that they're
• 50:56
  Speaker 4: saying 1.4 million workers will lose their jobs. It is
• 51:01
  Speaker 4: a range that goes down to zero. So they're saying
• 51:04
  Speaker 4: that there will be some level of people that will
• 51:06
  Speaker 4: lose their jobs, but not even just lose their jobs.
• 51:08
  Speaker 4: They're talking about just losing hours potentially. There are a
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: lot of minimum wage workers who are working three or
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: four jobs. So if one of those workers loses one
• 51:17
  Speaker 4: of those jobs because they now only have to work
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: two jobs, in my mind, that's a pretty darn good thing.
• 51:23
  Speaker 4: But in addition, if you look at our experience in Seattle,
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: we were the first major city in the country to
• 51:29
  Speaker 4: pass a minimum wage increase back in 2015 to $ 15
• 51:34
  Speaker 4: phased in. And I was on the committee that actually
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: helped draft that proposal in 2015. Everyone came and wrung
• 51:43
  Speaker 4: their hands about all the businesses that were going to
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: close and about all the jobs that were going to
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: be lost. And this is the same. It's like Redux.
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: We hear it every time. That is absolutely not what happened.
• 51:55
  Speaker 4: We had the businesses, some of the businesses that came
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: and said they were gonna lose jobs actually opened new branches.
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: We continue to have high unemployment and the lowest unemployment
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: rate in the country over the next several years as
• 52:11
  Speaker 4: we were raising the minimum wage. And in 20, I
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: think it was 2018 or 2019, Forbes ranked us as
• 52:17
  Speaker 4: the best place in the country both to do business
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: and for workers to have great careers. So it is
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: just not true that minimum wage actually makes it worse
• 52:30
  Speaker 4: for anybody. The whole community does better when workers do better.
• 52:34
  Speaker 4: There was a study that came out early in that
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: experiment that said we were going to lose a bunch
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: of jobs. Three years later, the same authors put out
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: another study that said we were wrong. That didn't happen.
• 52:46
  Speaker 4: So this is the problem with these studies. And if
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: you look at the comprehensive look of studies, over 172
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: studies that have been done in states across the country,
• 52:56
  Speaker 4: there is absolutely zero evidence that raising the minimum wage
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: creates job loss.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: Are you saying that giving money to workers so that
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: they can buy goods and services is good for the economy?
• 53:10
  Speaker 4: I am saying that, Dan.
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: I recognize neither of us are members of the CBO,
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: but yes, that seems like that might make intuitive sense
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: to me.
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: Especially those workers that are at the lowest wage, right?
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: Exactly, exactly.
• 53:23
  Speaker 4: Because they're not putting money away for stock trades. They
• 53:27
  Speaker 4: are actually spending it on food and other necessities. It
• 53:30
  Speaker 4: flows right back into the economy.
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: So what's next in the minimum wage fight? There's going
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: to be a battle in the Senate. There's a question
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: about how this fits into the quote unquote budget reconciliation
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: process that we'll need if we have to only get
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: 50 votes in the Senate. Where's your head on that?
• 53:47
  Speaker 4: Well, I really believe that the CBO report for everything
• 53:50
  Speaker 4: I don't agree with actually made it very clear that
• 53:53
  Speaker 4: minimum wage has a considerable effect on many parts of
• 53:57
  Speaker 4: the federal budget. And so I think it made the
• 53:59
  Speaker 4: case for budget reconciliation in the Senate. Now, we should
• 54:02
  Speaker 4: be really clear that the parliamentarians. So basically what happens
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: for people who don't know how this weird process works,
• 54:09
  Speaker 4: if you use budget reconciliation, it means you only need
• 54:12
  Speaker 4: 51 votes, which, of course, if we kept all Democrats
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: together and the vice president breaks the tie, we've got
• 54:17
  Speaker 4: 51 votes in the Senate. And so but in order
• 54:21
  Speaker 4: to qualify, you essentially have to show that there's a
• 54:24
  Speaker 4: significant impact on the federal budget. And so the CBO report,
• 54:28
  Speaker 4: I think, has done that. But the way it works
• 54:31
  Speaker 4: is you present arguments. It's like a court, right? So
• 54:34
  Speaker 4: the Democrats present their arguments, the Republicans present their arguments,
• 54:38
  Speaker 4: and then the parliamentarian of the Senate gives an opinion
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: on whether or not it qualifies. We should be really
• 54:43
  Speaker 4: clear that according to the rules of the Senate, that
• 54:45
  Speaker 4: is an advisory opinion to the chair of the Senate,
• 54:49
  Speaker 4: who happens to be the Democratic vice president, Kamala Harris.
• 54:53
  Speaker 4: And so the chair can then decide whether or not
• 54:56
  Speaker 4: she wants to take the parliamentarian's opinion or not. And
• 54:59
  Speaker 4: if she decides she doesn't want to take it, then
• 55:02
  Speaker 4: it would take 60 votes to overrule her ruling, essentially.
• 55:09
  Speaker 4: So I believe it's going to qualify. I also think, Dan,
• 55:13
  Speaker 4: that Republicans have used the rules in so many ways
• 55:17
  Speaker 4: that benefit the wealthiest corporations and the wealthiest individuals. In fact,
• 55:20
  Speaker 4: they even brought in a parliamentarian when they didn't like
• 55:23
  Speaker 4: the parliamentarian's opinion. And so I really think that Democrats
• 55:28
  Speaker 4: need to use every tool in the toolbox to pass
• 55:31
  Speaker 4: a minimum wage increase to 15 and benefit 30 million
• 55:35
  Speaker 4: workers across the country. It almost got derailed this past weekend.
• 55:42
  Speaker 4: As you know, President Biden... made a statement that, you know,
• 55:46
  Speaker 4: that he wasn't sure if it was going to survive
• 55:48
  Speaker 4: in the Senate. And that led to a series of things,
• 55:52
  Speaker 4: including arguments being put up for why the House should
• 55:56
  Speaker 4: not include it. And when I found out about that,
• 55:59
  Speaker 4: I was on the phone all weekend with the White House,
• 56:01
  Speaker 4: with our leadership, with the chairman of the Education and
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: Labor Committee. making it very clear that progressives would have
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: a very hard time supporting a package out of the
• 56:19
  Speaker 4: house that didn't have a $ 15 minimum wage. And so
• 56:23
  Speaker 4: we were able to work with leadership and with everybody
• 56:26
  Speaker 4: else to tear down the procedural reasons for why we
• 56:29
  Speaker 4: weren't putting it in, And on Sunday, there was no
• 56:32
  Speaker 4: $ 15 minimum wage in the Edna Labor package that was released.
• 56:35
  Speaker 4: And on Monday, it was back in. And so I'm
• 56:38
  Speaker 4: really proud to have led that effort in the House,
• 56:41
  Speaker 4: working with Senator Sanders and his staff to also educate
• 56:44
  Speaker 4: people on our side about the procedural reasons that we
• 56:48
  Speaker 4: needed to put it in.
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: The other victory that was notched in this process was
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: beating back in effort to target, I don't even feel
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: like target's the right word, but target the relief checks.
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: Can you talk a little about how, about what the
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: final result is and how you beat that back?
• 57:05
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: Well, this whole idea, okay. I want to talk about
• 57:08
  Speaker 4: the politics because I know you really are so good
• 57:11
  Speaker 4: on the politics as well as the policy, right? There's
• 57:14
  Speaker 4: two reasons for this. So this is a populist policy
• 57:18
  Speaker 4: that Democrats ran on in Georgia. and across the country
• 57:23
  Speaker 4: that we wanted to get $ 2, 000 of survival checks, money
• 57:27
  Speaker 4: in people's pockets, immediate thing that somebody could see. Donald
• 57:31
  Speaker 4: Trump was advocating, I try not to use his name anymore,
• 57:34
  Speaker 4: but he was advocating for this policy as well. We
• 57:37
  Speaker 4: passed $ 600 in December. I would have loved to see
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: 2000 on top of that, but okay, we got 1400
• 57:43
  Speaker 4: as proposed by President Biden. To the same audience, the
• 57:48
  Speaker 4: way you determine OK, sorry, let me stick with politics
• 57:52
  Speaker 4: for a second. So it would be absolutely crazy for
• 57:55
  Speaker 4: Democrats to now say, you know what, we don't want
• 57:59
  Speaker 4: to give it to the same people that got it before.
• 58:02
  Speaker 4: We want to reduce and restrict the number of people
• 58:05
  Speaker 4: who can get these very popular, politically popular checks that
• 58:09
  Speaker 4: we actually ran on in Georgia and won on in Georgia.
• 58:13
  Speaker 4: And we're going to cut out 40 million Americans from
• 58:15
  Speaker 4: getting these checks by reducing the threshold that qualifies you
• 58:21
  Speaker 4: to get a survival check. So it was 75,000 and 150,000.
• 58:25
  Speaker 4: The proposal from including some conservative Democrats was to reduce
• 58:29
  Speaker 4: that to 50 and 100, 50 and 75, excuse me.
• 58:35
  Speaker 4: And so that makes no sense politically. But just from
• 58:38
  Speaker 4: a policy perspective now, The threshold that we're using to
• 58:43
  Speaker 4: determine eligibility is from 2019 tax returns. Tens of millions
• 58:48
  Speaker 4: of people lost their jobs in 2020, and almost a
• 58:52
  Speaker 4: million people every week are still filing unemployment claims. So
• 58:56
  Speaker 4: if you want to, quote, target, I call it restrict,
• 58:59
  Speaker 4: checks based on eligibility, then you would need to have
• 59:04
  Speaker 4: very recent numbers to fine-tune who's going to get these checks.
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: We don't have... recent numbers to fine-tune that because most
• 59:13
  Speaker 4: people have not filed their 2020 returns and we don't
• 59:15
  Speaker 4: want to delay these checks. The whole point is right
• 59:18
  Speaker 4: now we've got to get help to people. And so
• 59:21
  Speaker 4: from a policy perspective, it makes no sense to try
• 59:24
  Speaker 4: to restrict the checks. Very few people at the top
• 59:29
  Speaker 4: end of the spectrum, everyone talks about people who are earning,
• 59:32
  Speaker 4: couples who are earning $ 300, 000 getting checks. I don't know
• 59:36
  Speaker 4: of a lot of people that are earning $ 300, 000 who
• 59:38
  Speaker 4: are getting checks. And if there is a portion, it's tiny.
• 59:43
  Speaker 4: So I would rather provide benefit to the large number
• 59:46
  Speaker 4: of people, get it out quickly, and hope that those
• 59:50
  Speaker 4: people would give that check away if they get it
• 59:52
  Speaker 4: and they don't really need it. than to try to
• 59:54
  Speaker 4: wait or try to unfairly restrict access to these checks.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: Another element of the COVID relief package that is, I think,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: incredibly important but has gotten less attention is the expansion
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: of access to health care in there. Could you help
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: our listeners understand what is going on with that?
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 4: So for anyone who doesn't know that's listening, I'm the
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 4: lead sponsor of Medicare for All. I got to put
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 4: a plug in for my bill. That is ultimately, in
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 4: my view, the way we solve our health care crisis
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 4: and make sure everyone has health care. OK, we're not
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 4: in a place where we're probably going to get Medicare
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 4: for all in this moment and we need to expand
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 4: health care for everybody. So we're pushing on Medicare for all.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 4: But at the same time, I was the co-chair of
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 4: the Biden Sanders Unity Task Force on health care last summer.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 4: And we were able to get a whole bunch of
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 4: foundational pieces of Medicare for all into those agreements. Some
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 4: of those are contained in this bill. But not all.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 4: And we are still pushing to to include those agreements
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 4: that candidate Biden made into this bill. But we are
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 4: going to increase subsidies based on the federal poverty limit
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 4: substantially so that people will have way more access to
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 4: health care immediately. we are going to decrease the total
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 4: percentage of income that anyone has to pay. So it's
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 4: now going to go to 8.5%. That will be a
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 4: big piece of making sure that health care is affordable
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 4: to people. And then we are pushing to do what
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 4: we said we would do in last year and tie
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 4: this to a platinum level plan. Because in Heroes, it
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 4: was only a silver level plan, and frankly, Those plans,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 4: you have to pay $ 8, 000 out of pocket. They are
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 4: not particularly good plans. So if we could tie this
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 4: to a platinum level plan, as candidate Biden had committed to,
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 4: then that at least will allow people quickly to access
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 4: good and comprehensive coverage. The last piece is we really believe,
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 4: and we got this into the Biden-Sanders unity task force agreements,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 4: that we should have auto-enrollment. Because part of the problem, Dan,
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 4: is people don't know that they qualify. They don't know
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 4: how to go about getting it. Why not just automatically
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 4: enroll everybody? My actual proposal was to automatically enroll anyone
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 4: who had lost their job or anyone who was uninsured
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 4: into Medicare. That would have been the easiest, quickest, and
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 4: cheapest thing to do. So we're working on auto-enrollment at
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 4: least into the platinum level plan or into one of
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 4: the ACA plans. So people don't have to go fill
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 4: out that paperwork. The final thing that's in the bill
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 4: is COBRA subsidies. So subsidizing COBRA for employees who lose
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 4: their jobs, but I don't want to, I don't want
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 4: to diss on COBRA, but it's a very expensive way
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 4: to go. And it covers a very small number of
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 4: people who even have employer covered healthcare. My personal opinion
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 4: is we're not doing enough in this plan for the
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 4: uninsured to really cover those people who are just falling
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 4: through the cracks. We will get a lot of them.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 4: It will be dramatically better than what we had before,
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 4: but it's not going to cover everybody. And I do
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 4: think that should be a priority. So I have told
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 4: the White House and our leadership that if we can't
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 4: do everything in this plan, we should at least implement
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 4: the Biden-Sanders Unity Task Force agreements into the Build Back
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 4: Better plan.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: One last question for you before I let you go.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: As you mentioned, you're the lead sponsor of Medicare for All.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: You are the chair of the Progressive Caucus. You were
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: a very prominent and proud supporter of Senator Sanders and
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: his presidential race. But you're also now serving in a
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: moment of unified democratic government with a democratic president who,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: while I think is more progressive than he gets credit for,
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: is more to the center than you and your chosen candidate.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: A Senate where someone like Joe Manchin or Kyrsten Sinema
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: or Mark Kelly has the the final vote necessarily on
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: any package. What is your strategy for pushing for the
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: progressive causes you care so much about in this moment
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: in Washington where there may be some limits from some
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: members of your own party?
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 4: Well, my strategy has always been both on the inside
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 4: and the outside. So the movement for Medicare for All
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 4: is really the most electrifying thing that we have. And
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 4: I think we're going to continue to try to build
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 4: that movement, including in districts where we don't have people
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 4: yet who are bought in. But in addition, I worked
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 4: last cycle with Speaker Pelosi as part of a negotiation
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 4: on the rules package to get an agreement that we
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 4: would have the first ever in the history of the
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 4: country hearings on a comprehensive Medicare for All bill, my bill.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 4: And we were able to get that. We had hearings
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 4: in the Rules Committee, the Ways and Means Committee, and
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 4: the Energy and Commerce Committee. And that allows us to
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 4: start laying the legislative groundwork for taking on all the
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 4: things that are being said about Medicare for All that
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 4: I believe firmly are not true. All the arguments that
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 4: are being put forward by pharmaceutical companies and private insurance companies.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 4: And so we are going to continue that process this
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 4: year in the Small Business Committee, in the Energy and
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 4: Commerce Committee. We had over half of the Democratic caucus
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 4: on the Medicare for All bill last year. That was
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 4: a record number of people. We hope to do that
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 4: again this year. And there are many of my colleagues
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 4: who have seen the disaster of the pandemic and have
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 4: actually come to me and said, you know, I wasn't
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 4: sure about Medicare for all before, but I am really
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 4: convinced that that's what we have to do now. And
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 4: so we're going to continue to move all of those pieces.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 4: You know, I know it's really disappointing that we're not
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 4: immediately moving a bill to the floor for Medicare for
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 4: all supporters, but I don't want us to lose when
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 4: we move it to the floor. We've got to win
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 4: that vote. And the reality is we've got to work
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 4: with President Joe Biden as well. And so that's why
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 4: the Unity Task Force agreements were so clear and so important,
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 4: because we got automatic enrollment, something really critical. We got
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 4: no deductible plans. We got into the public option. We
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 4: got a public option that will be run by Medicare,
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 4: not by a private insurance company. Critically important. We got
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 4: better agreements around drug pricing and and negotiating drug pricing
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 4: across all payers than we did in H.R. 3, which
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 4: was the House bill. So I'm really excited about continuing
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 4: the work to sort of put in place these foundational
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 4: elements of Medicare for all and at the same time
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 4: to continue to push for Medicare for all to be
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 4: the policy of the land, which I call me a hopist.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 4: But I really firmly believe that it's not a question
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 4: of if it's a question of when.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: Congresswoman, thank you so much for joining us on Pod
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: Save America, and we will talk to you soon.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 4: Thank you, Dan. Thanks for everything you're doing.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: Thanks to Congresswoman Jayapal for joining us today, and everyone
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: have a great weekend. We'll talk to you next week.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: Happy President's Day, I guess.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: It's a good President's Day. I know we finally have
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: a good president. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our associate producer is
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: Jordan Waller. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: Seglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Sominator, Katie Long,
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: Roman Papadimitriou, Caroline Rustin, and Justine Howe for production support.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Narmal Konian, Yale Freed,
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: and Milo Kim, who film and upload these episodes as
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: videos every week.