Latest / Marci talks money (and life) / Making Financial Literacy Fun and Accessible with Deb Kierstead
Transcript
- Marci Grossman (00:15) Hello, I am MoneyMarci. Welcome. I am thrilled to welcome today's guest, Deb Kierstead. Deb is a mom of four and an educator with over twenty nine years of experience who got tired of waiting for schools to teach kids what they actually need to know about money. So she built a financial literacy program that's playful, practical, and shockingly fun. Her son bought his first house at twenty-four. Proof that teaching money skills young actually works. Welcome Deb. Deb Kierstead (00:48) Hi, I'm so happy to be here today with you, Marci. Marci Grossman (00:51) Well, I'm thrilled to talk to you and find out your secret and your story. So you started out as a teacher? Deb Kierstead (01:00) I actually homeschooled my kids and worked with a lot of other kids as well through the homeschooling community. so yeah, a lot of experience teaching. Marci Grossman (01:09) Okay, so you weren't actually a classroom teacher, you were a home school teacher. Okay. I have a lot of friends who homeschool and I know from them that it's done differently all over the country and just different home schooling groups. So what was your experience home schooling? What was that like? Deb Kierstead (01:13) Yes, yeah. It was a it was a really great experience. I actually I had no intention to homeschool. My father was a a teacher, but I happened to be at the library when my oldest was two and just kind of she was a very fast kid, so I just grabbed this book from a parenting stack and it was about homeschooling. I read it cover to cover and I'm like, you know, I'm gonna homeschool and I did and it was you know, it was a really fabulous journey for my family and for my kids. We really got to spend a lot of time together and do a lot of things together and I see you have a cat as well Marci Grossman (01:58) Yeah. She was nowhere to be seen so I couldn't lock her up and then all of a sudden she decided to show up now. So if she's not too much of a distraction she can stay out, otherwise we'll have to take the time to deal with her. Deb Kierstead (02:10) No worries. I have a cat as well and I know just that exact moment you don't want them to show up, they show up. Marci Grossman (02:17) Pretty much, but she is the queen of all she surveys. Deb Kierstead (02:21) For sure. Marci Grossman (02:22) Had you been working before you got married and had kids, did you bring a background and connections that way or you found connections other ways? Deb Kierstead (02:32) Actually, you know, since I was 16 I had worked for a different family businesses. My brother sold computer games and my parents had a housing business. So I'd worked for that and I you know, like I'm actually a very shy and introverted person, but for some reason, you know, like it just was decided and I am a teacher by nature and so I just couldn't help when I started homeschooling I was like, well, you know, if I'm gonna do this with my kids, well why don't we include some other kids in this, right? I was just that kind of person and I'm you know and I just had to teach, I had to share, I absolutely love watching kids learn. Like they it's you know that's pretty much been the focus of my life is just wanting to help kids learn and learn in ways that are meaningful for them and ways they can enjoy and follow their passions. So everything that I try to teach, and I've taught a lot of things. I've taught drama, I've taught hockey, I've taught high school courses, everything it was like, okay, let's take this information and let's make it in a way that can really engage the kids so that they can get the most out of it. And that's what I did with financial literacy. I'm like, okay, I wanna teach this, but you know, we don't need any more boring workbooks or textbooks, right? Let's make this a hands-on program. So I created the program where the kids could be active, engaged, they could and I wanted to make it real life, right? Like, you know the first thing we do is we come up with a real life adult budget. So they can actually see and it's amazing to see through this process that the kids gain a a deep insight into how much their parents are having to pay all the time for them because they see, wait, you have to pay for food, you have to pay taxes, you have to pay for rent or a mortgage, utilities, all these things. And it gives them such great perspective. And you can see we always go through like 12 months of budget. So we go through a whole year and you can see how going through that whole year shifts a lot of their beliefs and mindsets. Marci Grossman (04:27) So you mentioned that you started when your daughter was two and you mentioned your son bought a house at twenty four. So where are your kids now? Deb Kierstead (04:36) My kids they're all grown up now, so my daughter is gonna be turning thirty-four in August, and then my younger daughter will be turning thirty, and then my son who bought the house, he'll be turning twenty-five, and then my youngest actually turns twenty on Monday, so yeah, we've come a long way. Marci Grossman (04:54) So are you still part of the home schooling community where you are? Deb Kierstead (04:58) I am. I'm still running, you know, the financial literacy programs, I'm still running hockey programs and drama programs. I'm still very much engaged in working with the kids. Marci Grossman (05:10) Okay. So you get to say, look, this works because my kids have, you know, gone on and done other things. How big is your home schooling community? Deb Kierstead (05:22) We have a really good home schooling community in our area. Yeah, there's a lot of different things have really shifted from when I started homeschooling to now, there's you know so many more people doing it. But yeah it's great that I can see the perspective of having gone through everything with my kids and even you know I didn't start teaching financial literacy till about ten, eleven years ago, so I didn't do it with my daughters and I can see, you know, they've done really well. They're you know they're doing fine, but I can see how how having that extra teaching really made a difference, right? Because, you know, my son when he got his first job at twelve, we started using what I call Marg's method and so he did that throughout and you know, by doing that by the time he was twenty three he had a hundred thousand dollars in the bank. you know, through using just these simple principles. It's not even, you know, I think sometimes people think it has to be something big, but it there's actually just a few principles that if you help your kids learn when they're young, and that's the thing that it's so important now. It's not like when you know when I grew up and moved out, I could go rent an apartment for a reasonable price, right? Where I live, an apartment is like $2,500 for a two-bedroom apartment. So it's so different. But if we start teaching our kids young and we make it fun and engaging and just part of our lives, then they can learn these skills and you know through that value of time and compound interest, then yeah, my 24-year-old can buy a house. Whereas a lot of other a lot of other young people are struggling because you know, not because of anything special about my son, but just he learned this, you know, one little habit that made a difference. Marci Grossman (07:01) What age do you start teaching financial literacy? Deb Kierstead (07:04) So my main I've taught at all ages, but I've really tried to focus on the nine to thirteen age range because I think that's a really good time. You know, they're old enough to understand the basics, but they're not too established. Like they say that by the age of seven, kids are already starting to lock in money habits. So we want to get them while they're still young. And that middle school age, it's kind of a fun age, right? It can be very challenging because they're starting to move out and become independent, but they're also very capable of learning things. So as long as you're if you're teaching them in a way that you know that they can accept and and bring in, then you know, I mean kids are sponges, right? They wanna learn. So if you can it do it in a way that can reach them, then the sky's the limit, right? They can learn whatever they need to learn. Marci Grossman (07:51) Did you teach your kids differently than how you're teaching financial literacy now? Deb Kierstead (07:57) Actually, I developed the program while my you know while my sons were younger, so they actually did the program as I was developing it. And I I developed it, you know, probably over about five years, the main program. And, you know, we ended up hitting the pandemic while I was kind of part way through and part way through teaching. But that was actually a blessing because I ended up having to get really creative and you know create some things. You know, I didn't have that in-classroom kind of time where I could work directly with the kids, so I had to find a different way to engage them. And so I created some really fun games, and those have kind of become the centerpiece of the program because, the kids will, you know, we'll learn the topic, we'll watch a video, we'll do a worksheet, but then we'll do the game, and that's where they lock in what they've learned, but they don't even realize because they're, you know, they're busy rolling dice and and cheering and you know, all excited. But what they don't realize is they're putting this into their minds and they're never gonna forget it, right? They're gonna go, remember that game Insurance Ladder we played? And be like, yeah. like that was so fun. And meanwhile, insurance is the most boring topic that no adult wants to talk about, right? But the kids are excited. And I even had a family that did my program and then after their father was in a car accident, not a bad one, fortunately, but still they already knew how insurance worked. They knew about deductibles and all of that because they'd learned them. So it was kind of a less scary process for them because they already understood what was gonna happen with the insurance. Marci Grossman (09:23) So are your programs available for other people, other groups, or is it just something you've created and you're using within your own home schooling community? Deb Kierstead (09:32) No, I've made it so that, you know, they can reach everybody because I really my goal is to, you know, help as many kids as possible to gain financial literacy. So I have what's called the Live Skills Money Academy and I have a full curriculum that's done. It's been tested out by teachers in schools and so that, you know, as a teacher or school can buy the curriculum and then just teach it to their own, you know, it's just plug and play, just print out the worksheets. And then I also have just recently created a home edition. So if a family wants to do the full program at home with their kids, they can do it there. Marci Grossman (10:05) Have your daughters forgiven you for developing this after they were already out of it? Deb Kierstead (10:07) Ha ha I think so. Yeah, they're pretty sweet people, so I think they've forgiven me. And my oldest has she's married and bought a house, so you know, she's done okay, but yeah. Marci Grossman (10:22) Did you learn financial literacy growing up? Deb Kierstead (10:26) I did not. Like I was kind of one of those people who always like to do a budget kind of thing, but no, I didn't and actually like this is one aspect that is really important to me is trying to help kids get a healthy money mindset because in my family money was associated you know my parents were always fighting about money. They were always stressed and worried. Like money to me was something that was scary, you should get angry about it, you should be worried about it, be stressed about it all the time. So I really wanted to change that with my kids and help other kids to learn that because I think you know I think for a lot of families that money is either not talked about or it's associated with these emotions and money is just a tool. Money is a tool that humans created to make their lives easier. So I you know I really want to focus on helping kids to learn to have that healthy relationship with money. Marci Grossman (12:05) Did you have any horror stories not necessarily growing up, but as as a young adult, mistakes that you made that you're using as lessons into the curriculum so that you know specifically, wow, you should definitely not do this or avoid this challenge because I learned the hard way. Deb Kierstead (12:23) Yeah, I have a lot of horror, you know, like my parents went bankrupt. My husband and I actually went bankrupt. You know, there was a a time period where we had a bunch of credit card debt, and I was literally going to the bank machine, taking the money off of my credit card, putting it in my bank account so I could make the minimum payment on my credit card, right? And you know, I don't think I'm the only person who's ever done that. So it it was you know, I was looking at this, okay, my parents went bankrupt, I went bankrupt. I don't want my kids to do that. So it's very motivating, right? Like and I like to say this because I think a lot of parents think, well, I'm bad with money, I can't teach my kids. And it's like, I went bankrupt, I taught my kids, my son bought a house at 24. We can change the narrative, we can change the pattern by doing a few simple things. So, you know, it doesn't have to be scary, it doesn't have to be painful. It you know, we can do this and we can make things better. Like a huge focus for my life has always been, you know, I want better for my kids than I had. And, you know, I was willing to do what it takes to make things better for them. And, you know, it involved creating a financial literacy program so that they could have the opportunities that they have. Marci Grossman (13:35) Right. And you know, it's important to learn from our mistakes, to learn from other people's mistakes. It would be great if we could all be perfect. I haven't met a perfect person yet. I'm working on it, meeting lots of people. Nobody's perfect yet. But it's good to have goals. Are there things you would have done differently for yourself or your kids after you started home schooling about the financial literacy, if you'd have known differently at the time. Deb Kierstead (14:01) Yeah. Absolutely, like I think like the one main thing that I did with my son is I call it Marg's method and that's where you know what I think is important is giving kids a saving strategy so they put aside a certain percentage of every dollar they get in goes into savings so they're paying themselves first. So I have like Dime Dash is put 10 cents for every dollar, Quarter Quest is 25 cents for every dollar, and Marg's Method, which is the best one if you can do it, is 50 cents for every dollar. So that's what my son did, and I wish I had done something like that. Even if I couldn't do that much, even if I'd have put a penny aside for every dollar I earned from the time I was a kid, I'd be laughing now. I'd be in a different position. So I do wish I had done that with my daughters as well. Started doing that. I, you know, I'm happy with how things went with my sons. Like it wasn't perfect by any means, but I feel like they have a healthy relationship with money and they started using Marg's Method, and they're still using Marg's Method, right? You know, so my younger son recently, in the wintertime there was bad weather and he ended up up wrecking his car and he had to get a new to him car. Well, it was no problem. He had the savings in the bank to buy a new car, you know, and it was no stress, right? Whereas, you know, I think back to times where, you know, my husband and I something happened, we needed a new car, it was very stressful. So my sons have a whole different kind of relationship with money because they started doing things young. And I absolutely like if I could go back in time, I would start saving and no matter what happened, I would put that penny, just one penny for every dollar aside, because it would make so much difference. Marci Grossman (15:35) I wanna clarify something. You're saying Mark's method? Like the name Mark? Deb Kierstead (15:39) It's actually Marg, Marg's Method. My M-A-R-G. Yeah, my my neighbor, she's ninety-nine years old now and it was named after her. She told me once, she would have these little chats with me sometimes and she'd say, you know, when I was younger, my parents would take half of my money, you know, once she started working. Now they kept the money and they used it, but I like, ⁓ I could do that, but I'll keep it for the kids. So that it the Marg's Method was named after her. Marci Grossman (15:42) M A R G Okay. Well that's a nice way to be remembered. Shout out and appreciation to Marg. Deb Kierstead (16:13) It is, yeah. Yeah. Marci Grossman (16:14) what do you think are the top three lessons kids need to learn about money? Deb Kierstead (16:20) The top three I would say is, you know, first of all, obviously the savings strategy. Number two would be spending strategies. So not just saying, you know, like trying to figure out how to spend, but having I have a few little things like I have a spending test where you know it's three steps, you ask the three questions, and if if it passes all of them, then they buy it, right? And then they buy it with no stress. So having different spending strategies and then budgeting. I think budgeting is really helpful. I know a lot of people think budgeting is boring or it's controlling or whatever, but it's actually the opposite because when you plan your money and you know where it's going, then you can choose. ⁓ I don't want to spend so much on this, I want to put more to this. So budgeting is actually giving you the power and control over your money versus you know just letting it go. I think it's very hard in today's world because a lot of kids aren't actually touching money. You know, their parents are just tapping to buy everything so they don't even see it. So I think you know giving them some cash to hold on to and play with and go to a store and buy things with is something that is really helpful to give them, you know, a better, you know, real life perspective. Marci Grossman (17:28) I agree, I think it's really hard when you don't you know, we used to keep a check register, but now everything's just on your credit card, you don't even notice it until you get the bill. And then it's a surprise how much you spent on all these quick little taps. Deb Kierstead (17:42) Yep, exactly. And then a lot of people just pay it and don't even know, you don't even keep track of where that money went, right? It's just okay, here, here, and they have no clue what they've, you know, and then they can't afford something else. But it's like, well, maybe if you made some different choices here, then you could afford that over here, right? Marci Grossman (18:00) Where do you live? Deb Kierstead (18:01) I'm actually in Canada. I live near Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Marci Grossman (18:05) Okay. So does where you live have requirements for financial literacy in the schools? Deb Kierstead (18:12) So they have just added, I think it's just like this year or next year, I'm not sure they've added, you have to pass a financial literacy test, I think, in grade ten to graduate. ⁓ but it's it's literally just been put in. So I don't really understand yet how it works. I wanna find out a little bit more of how it works. I don't know what kind of curriculum they have in place to support it. So I'm hoping that they're gonna give, you know, the what the kids need. Marci Grossman (18:40) Right, right. It's hard to say. In Michigan, starting I believe in the fall of 2024 they said incoming ninth graders will now have to have a semester of financial literacy, personal finance before they graduate. But every school district, possibly even every school as to what that means and how they're going to match that requirement is an unknown. I've talked to a number of other educators in different states and it seems like different states, different schools are approaching it differently, though they are all starting to put it into effect. I don't know how many states at this point in time have a requirement for it. And Deb Kierstead (19:25) I believe California does. Yeah. Marci Grossman (19:27) Yeah. Yeah. It's a number of states. I would guess it's half or more at this point in time, but like everything else, it's a changing number continually. The good thing is it's always changing in the right direction. Nobody's saying, we don't need it anymore. Everyone's saying, Yeah, maybe we should include it. So that's Deb Kierstead (19:36) Right. Yeah. Marci Grossman (19:45) you have any thoughts on how schools could tackle financial literacy or thoughts based on your experiences teaching it in home schooling? Deb Kierstead (19:54) Like I'm always a big advocate for trying to make it really like hands on and real life. You know, I don't think kids need a another textbook that they have to do. Like if it doesn't have meaning for them, then they're not gonna retain it, right? It's so important and especially with money, ⁓ that they're learning it in a way that makes sense to them, a way that, you know, they can understand when they're out at the mall and you know, and all this stuff is enticing them to buy things. It has to be based on their experiences, not on just some kind of abstract numbers, right? Marci Grossman (20:30) Right, right. And that goes back the abstract numbers goes back to using real cash or keeping your own ledger of everything you spend even though you're just tapping a card to do it. Deb Kierstead (20:42) Yeah, for sure. And but I do believe, like, you know, I personally think that financial literacy is the new literacy because, you know, in this world, like you can use AI and whatever to do so many things, but money, like, everybody has to know how to use money if they're going to be successful. And I don't know what it's like where you live, but you know, there's a city near where I live and like the unhoused population has skyrocketed because you know, people who used to be able to afford to rent an apartment now can't afford to rent an apartment. So now they're living on the so so not having financial literacy has way more implications than it used to because you know the bottom line is just so much higher. Marci Grossman (21:26) Right. the ratio of required living expenses to basic income are significantly yeah, much much bigger gap than when I was younger. Deb Kierstead (21:34) There's a big gap. Yeah. yeah, absolutely. Marci Grossman (21:41) Can you think of anything to say to any of our listeners who might be parents who have made financial mistakes to give them the confidence to move forward talking about money and teaching financial literacy to their own children? Deb Kierstead (21:56) Absolutely. To all those parents, like it's okay, it's okay if you've made mistakes, it's okay if you're not good with money. You just need to get the tools and resources and you can teach them. And my biggest advice is don't make this another chore. No parent, you know, I know all parents are busy running to this, running to that, whatever. They do not need another chore, so make it fun. You know, have a little challenge when you go to the grocery store, take your kids with you, do some fun things, and then just talk about money. Just talk about money, make it positive, make it at least neutral, and just talk about it and just. You know, even just look up some little topics that you can talk about and you know tell them stories of you know you know your horror stories of the silly things you did when you were young and you know just get the conversation happening and have fun with it because we do not need another chore parents we absolutely do not Marci Grossman (22:47) That is for sure. Fortunately my kids are also adults, so some of those chores don't exist anymore. But it's so important and we still talk about money. As a CPA at this point in time I'm still doing their tax returns, I'm still somewhat involved in those kind of things, so it gives me an opportunity that not all parents find themselves with, to have those conversations as to how things are going. But you have to make the time, you have to make the effort. Because even when your kids are adult, you still have more experience with money than they do. Deb Kierstead (23:19) Absolutely. And you wanna keep up those relationships, right? And it was funny, ⁓ I was talking to my husband earlier today and he said, you know, he wants to keep talking about those things with our kids 'cause later on, you know, when we're older, we might be asking them for advice, right? You know, so we wanna make sure they're well educated and they're gonna give us good advice, right? Marci Grossman (23:39) Well, the world changes so much. Whether it's just like what we talked about moments ago, the ratio of income to expenses and how that does the technology and the financial draw because of all the technology. I mean, way back when you had a home phone and that was fine and you had a T V and that was fine, but now you're paying for cable and you're paying for internet and you are paying for your cell phone and the cell phone access and you know all of these are additional expenses. The ratios are already off and now there are all these mandatory things that you have to have because if you don't have a cellphone you can't get a job. If you don't have access to email you can't even apply for a job. So it's continually Deb Kierstead (24:11) Yeah. Netflix Plus and yeah. Marci Grossman (24:27) changing this world that it's in and we've gotta keep these lines of communication open with our kids. We've gotta find ways to tell them what we know and listen to them because their experiences are going to be different than what we had. Deb Kierstead (24:42) Absolutely. Yeah, they're gonna have a totally different experience of money and life than we did. And you know, we have to we have to kind of bring it all together and hopefully make a really awesome thing out of it, right? The current thing and the past and the wisdom and then the new wisdom and put it all together into something and you know, and like I've said, like money is a tool. Money was created to make our lives easier. So let's make money make our lives easier instead of the other way. Marci Grossman (25:09) Absolutely. Deb, do you have anything else to mention before we wrap up that maybe we haven't covered? Deb Kierstead (25:17) Yeah, just you know, just like I was talking about money, keeping that healthy money mindset for your kids. You know, if you're ever looking for resources, I have lots of resources to help parents get started if they're struggling. Free resources, paid resources, whatever. You know, just but get started. Like don't time is your biggest friend when it comes to money and your kids. So don't wait. Start now. And they you know, I know during the process, your kids may complain, they may, you know, fight you on things, but in 10 or 20 years, they're gonna thank you. You know, when my son bought his house and everything, I'm like, did what I teach you, did that make a difference for you? And he's like, Of course it did, right? So they will come back and they will say, Thank you, mom. You just have to be very patient, and then you'll get it. Marci Grossman (26:04) Oh that patience. Absolutely with money, the earlier you start, the more patient you can be, the better the results. Deb Kierstead (26:12) Well that's it, if they have that time, if they have the savings, it opens opportunities for them that they wouldn't have if they didn't have that. Marci Grossman (26:21) Absolutely. Deb, thank you so much for being my guest today. We appreciate you taking the time to join us here. Deb Kierstead (26:28) Thank you so much for having me on today. Marci Grossman (26:31) It was my pleasure. To my listeners, I will be sharing a link to Deb's information, multiple links, in the show notes. Please check her out. She has a lot of interesting information. And don't forget to subscribe, leave us a review, and stay tuned. I'll see you next time. This has been MoneyMarci on Marci Talks Money (and Life). You got this.