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Bonus Patreon Release: Sapna! With Ash Alleyne! · Graymalkin Lane the podcast

0:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Green Walken Lane Patreon channel.
0:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I am so excited to be recording with a friend that I have had online for ever, but we're finally meeting face to face over Zoom.
0:09
[SPEAKER_01]: The incredible Asher Lane is here.
0:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Ash, hi, how are you?
0:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Hi, I'm kids, I'm good, thank you, I'm just happy to see you, my friend.
0:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's lovely to meet you too, it's lovely to meet you too, how have you been?
0:20
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, life in America 2025 is chaos, I think it is very similar in London except
0:29
[SPEAKER_01]: how are you doing?
0:31
[SPEAKER_00]: How am I doing medium?
0:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Solid medium.
0:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
0:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
0:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a fair assessment.
0:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Would you like to tell listeners a little bit about yourself?
0:40
[SPEAKER_01]: People may know you've been in the kind of the podcasting world for quite some time and you're delightful to listen to.
0:46
[SPEAKER_01]: It's great to meet you face-to-face.
0:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
0:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm high.
0:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm, I'm actually, I have been in the podcast for a little bit.
0:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a show called Exofords, which is about black queer perspectives on the experiment, and it's been going for about four years.
0:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm coming back from a little bit of a haters now, because yeah, it was based on ex books, and I wanted to give this new era time to flourish, before I open my mouth about it.
1:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And now it has flourished, and I will be opening my mouth about it.
1:14
[SPEAKER_00]: So,
1:15
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, it's lovely to meet you.
1:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for inviting me here.
1:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm great.
1:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Markin.
1:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's opinions on this new era of books seem to be kind of not great from a lot of listeners.
1:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a person who if I'm going to read something and spend time on it, I'm going to find something to love about it.
1:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to waste my time otherwise.
1:34
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, but how are you enjoying this new era of books?
1:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
1:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
1:42
[SPEAKER_01]: What I'm finding is people have a few things they like.
1:44
[SPEAKER_01]: There's like a few books that kind of stand out.
1:47
[SPEAKER_01]: But line wide, most of queer listeners at least who are kind of a who I mostly associate would seem to be really struggling to find their feet.
1:54
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a couple of books that they like, you know, something like decent reviews from folks, but there's kind of not that one or two books that everybody's really excited about.
2:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Opinions seem pretty polarized these days.
2:06
[SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing really that's grabbing me.
2:08
[SPEAKER_00]: There were, uh, it's, it feels like the foundation's gone.
2:11
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there was a solid foundation.
2:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Whatever you think of the previous era, because, you know, that's on point, you really have to let shit go.
2:18
[SPEAKER_00]: But the previous era had a solid foundation, the concept was strong.
2:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like this is a bunch of books that are,
2:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting in an almost superficial way, but of lost any real grounding of like what the message or the story is so I I mean I respect your your approach to it when you were like if I'm gonna read something I find something to love about it and that sounded a little bit to me like you're gonna convince yourself to like it if you read it And I tried that.
2:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I tried to be so positive
2:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I went in with my heart wide open and I said, well, friends, that was issue one and that was issue two and that was issue three.
2:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm in an interesting place, so I used to write for the Marvel Handbook.
2:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So for years and years, I've been reading all the books, right?
3:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And I always want to find something I love, but yeah, I'll fully admit, and I've said it on the show.
3:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I won't give like a harsh negative criticism to something, but I will say if it's not my favorite.
3:10
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think that this era of books oddly reflects what a lot of queer people are feeling.
3:15
[SPEAKER_01]: We move from Krakowah to like this fractured society of mutants.
3:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're like living in these kind of fascist times where we're all feeling very fractured.
3:22
[SPEAKER_01]: It's oddly representative.
3:24
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know, all that said, you know, I, I also am in a weird spot because I've become personal friends with a lot of the creators, and I know how much work and love they're putting in, but I also know how much oversight is in place, and there's a lot of, there's a lot of barriers right now.
3:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, the interesting thing and this is a, this is kind of the cool lead in for our conversation today.
3:43
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the books coming out right now is Ashley Allen, not Ashley Elaine, but Ashley Allen's magic book.
3:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I have, I've met Ashley Ashley's lovely, and magic I think when you are putting her forward as the primary character, there's a certain type of story that you tell with her, and if you're reading the current magic book with this stuff going on with the society of which is the moon star and then this character liminal, this is an oddly parallel story to the character we're going to talk about today who is Saffna.
4:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Ash, what's your relationship with
4:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I like magic.
4:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I've always liked magic.
4:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought she was, I think she's one of the characters that is maybe a little bit more interesting than she should be on a team.
4:25
[SPEAKER_00]: There are some people who's stories, I think, are so rich that being in an ensemble book always hampers them a little bit.
4:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And she's one of them.
4:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I love the magic book, actually.
4:35
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to, there are
4:41
[SPEAKER_00]: off of exceptional.
4:43
[SPEAKER_00]: They have been the standouts and the things that I'm reading and liking.
4:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I like all of those.
4:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really liking Jed's book as well that the adjective looks X-Men one is one I've latched on to because I love I love deep continuity.
4:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I love when it pulls me all over the place.
4:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I'll find something to love about the ball.
4:57
[SPEAKER_01]: But storm is my favorite if I'm honest.
4:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Marae was become a very dear friend of mine.
5:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I think he's incredible.
5:02
[SPEAKER_00]: See, I think we sit in interesting positions then as pollcasters, because sometimes I think that compromise is not compromises, but it richens your idea of the creative process in a way that you almost can't see it entirely as a reader anymore.
5:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you know how everything is made and you understand that sometimes these are not the singular expression of a vision that people read in my assume.
5:24
[SPEAKER_00]: They've got, oh, well, every word and every decision of every character here,
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[SPEAKER_00]: is just a pure expression of what the right or wanted.
5:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And that isn't always the case.
5:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Those are those of shit and transformations and negotiations and mandates.
5:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I might argue that it's rarely the case.
5:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
5:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
5:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And we know that.
5:43
[SPEAKER_00]: We know that.
5:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And I try to, like, when I read the books, shift myself into, like, a readers thing.
5:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm, like, great.
5:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I hate, I hate, I see, but like, as a reader, what is this, you know, because I think particularly particularly through the lens that I've looked at comics through because of X of words, which is like a particularly black and queer lens.
6:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Often times that has, that has been used as the reason for why anti-blackness or misogynoir can make it into the books and people like pass the buck around, do you know what I mean?
6:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I kind of, I kind of try to have a dual sense of
6:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I do understand the complications and all the negotiations and sometimes people are really going to back for things in books that don't happen or can't happen and there's a million stories.
6:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I kind of have to jump out of that and to left and go, right, okay, but what are we left with?
6:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
6:33
[SPEAKER_00]: What are we reading?
6:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And at the end of the day, I want to enjoy my book.
6:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to be invited to pick it up, right?
6:39
[SPEAKER_00]: No, you know.
6:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have been vocal about this.
6:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's always the book or two that I'm so excited to go get at the store and pick it up.
6:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's been like fantastic for and like Avengers Academy lately.
6:50
[SPEAKER_01]: How's the early end books?
6:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
6:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So like, you can train your Academy, had me run into the show.
6:55
[SPEAKER_01]: You train your Academy was excellent.
6:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I love, I love a really fun diverse cast.
6:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I think what I find is I still kind of look for the same thing in my 40s that I looked for in my teens when I was picking up the books.
7:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I want epic adventure and messy soap opera, and I want, you know, like a really solidly incredible story that makes me want to pick it up.
7:13
[SPEAKER_01]: But I've always been that guy that really wants the deep continuity.
7:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I want the obscure characters.
7:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I want everything I've ever read to matter.
7:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So I love a book that makes me use those parts of my brain always.
7:24
[SPEAKER_00]: That's really nice.
7:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
7:26
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to talk about SAPNA today.
7:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me do a little bit of a building for listeners.
7:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of my listeners, Ash, are not a long-term ex-men.
7:34
[SPEAKER_01]: So my show started in the Silver Age.
7:36
[SPEAKER_01]: My show's currently set in about 1975.
7:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And some of my listeners are there with me.
7:43
[SPEAKER_01]: No, in giant size X-Men number one, we meet Ilyana Rasputin as it's later corrected for the first time.
7:51
[SPEAKER_01]: She's a young child We have a story later infamously where she gets kidnapped by an evil kind of wizard slash child trafficker Velasco at a demon dimension.
8:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah
8:02
[SPEAKER_01]: he draws on her soul to create magic.
8:04
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the old witch using the innocence of the child to to propagate their power, right?
8:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I just in fact, I just saw the movie Weapons, which is the witch drawing on children, cut of energy again.
8:15
[SPEAKER_01]: It's incredible.
8:16
[SPEAKER_01]: The methodology though for magic is that she escapes limbo this dimension by becoming its ruler in essence.
8:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a dark side and a
8:29
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like Innocence corrupted, but also if she releases the Dark Child, is that really the part of her that's her truth?
8:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, so there's a lot of really interesting things related to this character.
8:40
[SPEAKER_01]: We're seeing her in modern comics primarily as like a very self-focused character.
8:45
[SPEAKER_01]: She has a lot of fun, she's got a big old sword, she has teleporting discs, she's been a leader on the team, she's a war general, and she's now on the main X-Men book as a lead character.
8:57
[SPEAKER_01]: If we jump back to 2016, which is where we're going to be spending our conversation today, this is an era of the books similar to now.
9:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we're a lot of readers kind of struggled to find their footing.
9:08
[SPEAKER_01]: They were looking for things to love, and we're going to be starting in a book called Extraordinary X-Men by Jeff Lamier and Humberto Ramos.
9:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Where we have kind of an odd premise for the team, we're going to keep our stories focused on magic specifically.
9:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Not all of extraordinary X-Men is great.
9:24
[SPEAKER_01]: There's some characters that it does a major disservice to Nightcrawler being right at the top of the list.
9:30
[SPEAKER_01]: But the magic story of this book is pretty solid.
9:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me hear your connection to this era of books in 2016.
9:37
[SPEAKER_00]: This was the era and the very long stretch of X-Men where it really was kind of disillusioned with what the book stood for, because ultimately it felt like era after era after era they were just finding more layered, complicated ways to suffer, to suffer this small population.
9:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you know what I mean?
9:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
9:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So this was around the time when the...
9:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Terrogen myths, we're also, if anybody is in, is familiar with the in humans who are kind of a parallel type of quote, unquote, super group within the model universe, who kind of it's kind of similar except they get their powers through this Terrogen myth, which is some explosion of a weird question.
10:13
[SPEAKER_01]: They're very, they're very like game of thrones, war of the roses, you know, in bread, like royal family, like I love the in humans, but there's a lot of crazy.
10:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly, it's like X-Men and Dynasty.
10:27
[SPEAKER_00]: What if but no, like X-Men and the Crown But okay, so then they kind of hit them together for some reason then they they want not for some reason There's a big cloud walking around and the Terrogen mist that makes in humans kills mutants and there's this huge sort of zero-sum game thing happening And then mutants end up in limbo living in hell
10:46
[SPEAKER_01]: The X-Men build a base in this kind of demon purgatory dimension because this cloud of tarriage and mist that's moving around the earth with the winds.
10:57
[SPEAKER_01]: If it hits mutants, it will give them something called empox, which is incurable.
11:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And some major characters die of empox, including multiple man and cyclops, of course, they're both back.
11:07
[SPEAKER_01]: but it was pushed pretty strongly in the book at the time.
11:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And some of the characters that we really love these days got their origins here because they were Marvel was really pushing to make the inhumans a thing.
11:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So the manity books came out and Moongirl and Ms. Marvel both are books that have become beloved.
11:25
[SPEAKER_01]: These are characters that people love from, from this era that are directly related, both being in human characters.
11:32
[SPEAKER_01]: So what made you choose SAPNA as the character you wanted to discuss today?
11:36
[SPEAKER_00]: um absolutely unsung potential.
11:38
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it was a great character that was kicked off in an era where even a list X-Men were being shunted to the side and it was a decimation era and you know we know that young X-Men don't make it out even in even in flourishing areas sometimes they don't make it out.
11:55
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a glass ceiling of all the other X-Men on top of them and so I felt like Sapna was an incredible character that was spawned at exactly the wrong time
12:03
[SPEAKER_00]: and I think her trajectory and the things that she ends up doing being and representing in this story a kind of symbolical representative of that.
12:11
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's take an innocent child who has unlimited potential and because of this world that doesn't accept her or because of evil forces, we toss some demons into the mix, right?
12:21
[SPEAKER_01]: That we watch what happens.
12:23
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a trope in horror films.
12:25
[SPEAKER_01]: We love a story about like an innocent child who then becomes the receptacle of some sort of demon or Satan or some evil force, you know, like
12:34
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the little girl in the pig tails who is suddenly very scary as her head twists around or it's the two little twin girls in the in the shining standing in the hallway and you're like no we we love that and very much represents that in a way that Iliana does too but in this role Iliana is the character coming to Sapna's rescue.
12:57
[SPEAKER_01]: where for Eliana, she was never really rescued, right?
13:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Like she had to grow up in her own pain.
13:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is a story where she gets to come to the rescue.
13:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Much like the modern book with this character, I forgot the kid's name that has the limital living inside of him, but she's trying to come to the rescue for this new kid in Ashley's book.
13:15
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a great way to tell Eliana story.
13:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I mean, it's funny because, you know, when you were talking about Leon's origins, she's surveyed things in some very interesting ways, because one, she was, now tell me if they're timings right on this, but she was like a sympathetic Russian character.
13:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, like the, the, the, the X-Men, this sort of second generation of X-Men, this sort of storms, the night crawlers, the, the colossus, the Wolverines, they were meant to be a little bit more global, you know?
13:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So you had different nationalities in the team, it was meant to be a bit, you know, not so much like five waggits from upstate.
13:46
[SPEAKER_01]: But focusing that specifically on Colossus in 1975, Colossus was the Russian defector.
13:52
[SPEAKER_01]: He's the one who's back out, right?
13:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And Eliana's a different version of that.
13:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Eliana is more about innocence corrupted.
13:59
[SPEAKER_01]: By the way, I did a big show about Colossus last July.
14:02
[SPEAKER_01]: If you take Mikhail, Colossus, and Eliana as the three Rasputin kids who all have potential, we get these odd kind of Russian tropes in fiction.
14:10
[SPEAKER_01]: We have the Cosmonaut, the Farmer, and the Bitch, right?
14:15
[SPEAKER_00]: is, and then she gets this sort of little white girl in danger, which is often deployed as a way to ham up a villain as worse.
14:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So the worst thing that a lot of villains can do is threaten or menace white women and girls.
14:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you have her been whisked away into a limbo dimension taken by a very camp-looking man who's always wearing a cape and saying dramatic things.
14:38
[SPEAKER_00]: But then she saved herself.
14:40
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there was this big effort and these big things, but largely, she kind of gets it out of the month, with grit and tricks and her own ingenuity.
14:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was so excited to watch what would happen when magic met another her.
14:54
[SPEAKER_00]: But unfortunately, I think all of the tropes that magic was spared, SAPNA was not in that story because magic does come in and save her.
15:04
[SPEAKER_00]: But in a way that doesn't really save her.
15:06
[SPEAKER_01]: This is also an interesting time for magic as well.
15:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So magic was in the new mutants for so long.
15:11
[SPEAKER_01]: We have the job, your balance by the dark child.
15:13
[SPEAKER_01]: But then she gets reverted to childhood and killed by the legacy virus.
15:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, it's only been, you know, seven or eight years since she's been revived originally as the dark child.
15:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a lot of really dark stories with her with like Kieran Gillin and others.
15:27
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's that no snowflakes in hell kind of stuff.
15:30
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is her kind of launching into a new like hero era.
15:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's put her on the for the forefront.
15:34
[SPEAKER_01]: It's
15:35
[SPEAKER_01]: It's reminiscent of that time like cannonball join the X-Men, right?
15:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Like this is a huge great for a character on the main team.
15:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So the other thing we have to layer here really quickly, this is a very complicated time, because this is the still the era of like the Brian Michael Bendis bringing the original X-Men to the present.
15:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a lot of time-eweimy time travel nonsense here before it wraps up an extermination.
15:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So, the original 5Xmen are around.
16:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Professor X's dead because this is after the Phoenix 5 story, which magic was also part of, right?
16:05
[SPEAKER_01]: She got amplified to god levels for a while.
16:08
[SPEAKER_01]: The terror, and this is also like coming out of like when Colossus became juggernaut, like there's a lot of crazy shit.
16:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So, the Tarrogen Mister in the air and they are living in limbo and storm is leading the team.
16:19
[SPEAKER_01]: So, the entire mansion is in limbo and a demon dimension, being protected by shields.
16:24
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Magic sets up the very first mission for the team, they go to New Delhi and they're trying to protect a vulnerable mutant girl who's been targeted by the military there.
16:35
[SPEAKER_01]: New Delhi, by the way, for American listeners at least, who have very little sense of world politics and population, New Delhi has 33 million people living at it.
16:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Which, like, compare that to New York, it's insane.
16:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, Magic is trying to protect this child and her name is Sapna, SAPNA.
16:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And her parents are quite frightened and very mutant phobic and they're like magic please don't hurt our daughter magic says I'm not here to hurt her or you I'm here to take you somewhere safe.
17:01
[SPEAKER_01]: My name's Iliana.
17:02
[SPEAKER_01]: What's yours?
17:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Sapna you do not need to be afraid anymore, Sapna.
17:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I will help you.
17:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you trust me?
17:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Will you come with me?
17:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes
17:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's just the tiniest little thing with the biggest eyes, she's like the cutest little girl and she reaches for magic's hand and the civilians open fire and magic is hit and she opens a portal back to x haven, which is what they're calling the refuge in limbo because it's not safe for mutants on earth right so when they arrive magic tells the others that sappna has been hit by the tarogen myths.
17:32
[SPEAKER_01]: and she now needs medical attention.
17:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So innocent girl powers not really even activated yet, but she's already been targeted by the military and already has a disease which magic has been targeted by the military and already was been killed by the legacy virus.
17:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Magic says it's bad out there storm and getting worse.
17:50
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't just a mob this time.
17:52
[SPEAKER_01]: The Indian military were after her.
17:54
[SPEAKER_01]: They've started outlining mutants.
17:56
[SPEAKER_01]: These people, they used to fear and hate us, but now after what Scott did, they just,
17:59
[SPEAKER_01]: hate us.
18:00
[SPEAKER_01]: They showed no hesitation in opening fire on me.
18:03
[SPEAKER_01]: So Sapna and her parents all come to x haven't we see them living there for a period of time and then we jump to issue three where there's a hoard of demons because limbo's hell again that break through the barrier and Sapna is desperate to protect her parents.
18:17
[SPEAKER_01]: an electrical energy burst bursts forth from her hand so her powers activate in this moment of trauma and she tries to get the demons to stop and they do.
18:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Saphna glows with power and she's now in command of a force of demons.
18:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, if you're really listening, help the X-Men, the fight with the demons ends in issue number four.
18:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Look, I think it's pretty classic.
18:39
[SPEAKER_00]: It's pretty classic, ex fair.
18:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, beleaguered.
18:42
[SPEAKER_00]: She's, she's fucking going through it.
18:44
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, she's having a shit day.
18:45
[SPEAKER_00]: They know X-Men comic once anybody under the age of 15 to be having a good day.
18:50
[SPEAKER_00]: So she is, she's in the shit basically.
18:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And she goes from one shit to another shit.
18:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So she's, she's stressed out and then they pick her up and her parents up and then they turn up in a place that's ostensibly a bit worse.
19:02
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, ah, the military, and you rescued me to hell instead, but she, you know, you needed to give her the trauma, the trauma event.
19:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was it.
19:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think saving her parents was an interesting one, saving her parents was a really, really interesting one.
19:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So I liked it.
19:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And if we do the comparison with Ilyana, Ilyana's parents were gone down by military.
19:22
[SPEAKER_01]: By the way, in that storyline, by NECAs, it was the sole skinner, like Eliana's a little kid, so the Russian military storms the house, because they want a kid in Appuliana, and it advanced her back to adulthood, so they have her powers as a weapon, and her parents are killed by the military.
19:37
[SPEAKER_01]: So Eliana's watching this happen to another little girl, right?
19:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And she too, well, we'll not get ahead of ourselves.
19:45
[SPEAKER_00]: But that I think that was a really interesting, like, manifestation moment.
19:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes, you know, that it's stress and moral danger, but I think the fact that Sapness first instinct was to protect people was something that I thought was quite interesting.
19:58
[SPEAKER_00]: As we go on and we talk, I think Sapna got like, new big hit of coding for me.
20:04
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a lot of things that coded Sapna is like, this is going to be a big deal.
20:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
20:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's part of the reason why I really pay the
20:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I think typically the story and tell me what you think about this, whether you think you agree with this or not.
20:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Typically, mutants manifest in a way that is personal, deeply personal, or sometimes against their parents, or something completely innocuous, like, oh, it happened at school because I was being bullied or
20:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I was being chased down by this person in this person.
20:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And a mutant who manifests trying to protect somebody else.
20:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Isn't as common?
20:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's why I parked up.
20:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it's just because I'm a sucker for like a kid in danger story.
20:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know.
20:42
[SPEAKER_01]: You and I being different colors and being in different countries.
20:45
[SPEAKER_01]: The thing we have in common is we're both gay, men, right?
20:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we can easily make this category about trans kids as well.
20:52
[SPEAKER_01]: But it was being bullied at school long before I knew I was gay.
20:56
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the sad part of that story.
20:58
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a sociologist in my in my day job.
21:00
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's the sad part of that story is kids aren't allowed to have their powers develop their being targeted for being mutant first and we we like expect it to be a trauma that awakens their powers.
21:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
21:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Another interesting parallel with magic, magic's power is these teleporting discs.
21:17
[SPEAKER_01]: But because she gets kidnapped at one time, she becomes inherently connected to limbo specifically, and then the soul magic that resides in her sword, satna's power is language.
21:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Satna's power is like cipher, like Doug Ramsey.
21:30
[SPEAKER_01]: She's what they call, I think, Omni-Lingual.
21:32
[SPEAKER_01]: She can just read and interpret any language, and because she ends up in limbo, she has to go there to be protected.
21:38
[SPEAKER_01]: She ends up absorbing the language of these demons.
21:42
[SPEAKER_01]: and like the magic understanding which is much too much for a little kid to understand.
21:47
[SPEAKER_01]: So now she's commanding demons and casting spells and like using necromancy in a little while and conjuring portals because she's able to tap into the language of this realm and the power corrupts her because she wasn't safe.
22:01
[SPEAKER_01]: But you all you wonder how much the empox plays into that as well.
22:04
[SPEAKER_01]: But significant trauma for this kid already which is heartbreaking.
22:07
[SPEAKER_00]: But makes her almost a mirror image of magic, because now you have a little girl who is in, inextricably linked to limbo and knows far too much and has been, you know, it stared back into her as well.
22:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And in the same way that magic kind of came out with this dark child, Kurt Thin, so to Sappna now has a shadow side to contend with.
22:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, she's evil because she has bags under her eyes.
22:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
22:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Magic, magic really fucks up your skin care.
22:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, whatever you had going on, don't not any type of spells.
22:40
[SPEAKER_01]: So if we jump to Issue 6 here, if I read Sapna when you read Magic, we'll do this kind of other thing in a moment.
22:46
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to look like Max Sets.
22:49
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll just use our voices.
22:50
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like... She's like... An issue six is where Magic sees Sapna, who has now like tapped into these demons, because she was left to protect herself.
22:57
[SPEAKER_01]: She's wearing like a baggy X-Men sweater.
22:59
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like very emaciated and kind of withered.
23:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And like there's this red demon that's bigger than her that's kind of cowering at her feet.
23:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And Magic's worried, and she says... Sapna, are you okay?
23:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Why are you out here all alone?
23:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, hello, magic.
23:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I just, it's my mother and father.
23:15
[SPEAKER_01]: After the demons attacked and my powers came out, they could barely look at me.
23:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they were scared of me.
23:21
[SPEAKER_01]: My fault wouldn't even let my mother talk to me.
23:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Then they left.
23:25
[SPEAKER_01]: They left me here all alone.
23:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I heard.
23:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so sorry.
23:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I know it's hard, but you're not alone.
23:30
[SPEAKER_01]: but what if they're right?
23:32
[SPEAKER_01]: What if I'm evil?
23:34
[SPEAKER_00]: You are not evil, son.
23:36
[SPEAKER_00]: You are a mutant.
23:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And never let anybody tell you those are the same things.
23:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Then why can't I help but feel that my mother and father are right that there's something wrong with me?
23:45
[SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing wrong with you.
23:46
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, from what in here you save the day when the miscaled, when my mystical defenses around X haven't went down.
23:51
[SPEAKER_00]: You're a hero, sir, no.
23:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Your parents may not understand, Matt, now, but one day they'll see that you're special, gifted, not damned.
23:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And I see you've made a friend.
24:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Buggers, he's snoddy.
24:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I like it.
24:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And he just listens to you.
24:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, they all do whatever I say.
24:10
[SPEAKER_01]: The monsters out there.
24:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I like Buggers best, though.
24:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I think she likes to eat them.
24:15
[SPEAKER_01]: She's that age.
24:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, do you want to go out there?
24:21
[SPEAKER_00]: See Limbo first-hand?
24:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I, okay.
24:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you scared?
24:24
[SPEAKER_01]: No, maybe I should be, but I kind of feel really good out here.
24:28
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you're the master of this realm, Eliana?
24:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, as long as I possess this also, I rule Limbo.
24:34
[SPEAKER_00]: But not the other ones.
24:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Other ones?
24:37
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you mean?
24:38
[SPEAKER_01]: The other realms, all the ones alongside this one, who rules those?
24:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Other realms?
24:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't understand, certainly.
24:45
[SPEAKER_01]: But don't you see the doors?
24:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And suddenly, the sky just fills up with realms.
24:51
[SPEAKER_01]: It's giving very like monsters ink with all the doorways that open to other places.
24:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it is.
24:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's another reason why I thought she was coded as a big hit-up, because not everybody gets a fucking animal companion.
25:04
[SPEAKER_00]: To come out of the gate with a familiar?
25:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And Boogers exists at the same time as Pickles, the BAMP, a main member of the other team.
25:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So she says, uh, don't you see the doors?
25:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, oh my god, I, I do know.
25:19
[SPEAKER_01]: So they look at a portal and magic asks.
25:21
[SPEAKER_01]: What's on the other side, Saturn?
25:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Lots of stuff.
25:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Almost too much to even imagine.
25:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I, I can see it in my head when I close my eyes, like a tree branching off in millions of directions.
25:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Each branch and other realm, some of them are good, but some of them are bad, real bad.
25:38
[SPEAKER_00]: I, I, I think we need to go and see Dr.
25:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Strange.
25:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm reading this girl is a little bit medicine because like the demon magic is like slowly influencing her.
25:48
[SPEAKER_01]: You if you're watching this in a movie, she's like, you're not moving quite right, right?
25:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's something a little off here.
25:55
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I reject that framing.
25:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I reject that framing.
25:58
[SPEAKER_00]: That's exactly why it's not got what she got.
26:01
[SPEAKER_00]: That is a small girl.
26:02
[SPEAKER_00]: She wasn't sad not evil, but limbo's evil, right?
26:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that was amazing.
26:07
[SPEAKER_01]: She didn't deserve none of this.
26:08
[SPEAKER_01]: No, she the doors.
26:10
[SPEAKER_01]: She definitely did not deserve it, but that's what limbo does to kids, right?
26:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, she needs an exorcism now.
26:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Poor baby, poor baby.
26:18
[SPEAKER_01]: In issue 7, there's a witch in weird world.
26:20
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not going to take time.
26:21
[SPEAKER_01]: We're weird worlds like a little magic crazy place at Marvel.
26:26
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a witch in weird world that warns magic about a problem coming up and predicts even sap know won't be able to save it save you.
26:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And then an issue 8 sap know goes with magic to Manhattan.
26:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, we're here sap know.
26:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
26:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I've never seen New York before.
26:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, I've seen it on the internet and stuff, but not in real life with magic.
26:46
[SPEAKER_01]: All these people won't be.
26:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't worry, girl.
26:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, the cloaking spell.
26:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not in the habit of hiding, but given the last time you were in a large crowd, it was a mob trying to kill you because you know, she really has to hand the trauma, just in case.
27:00
[SPEAKER_01]: But also informed the readers.
27:03
[SPEAKER_00]: The last time you were in a large crowd, it was a mob trying to kill you.
27:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought it best to ease you back into the world.
27:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And this doctor you're taking me to is he gonna help me with my impacts?
27:13
[SPEAKER_00]: No, full stop.
27:15
[SPEAKER_00]: That seems, that seems to be clearing up when it's own quite nicely.
27:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't figure that out myself.
27:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Some mutants die instantly when hit with the Terrogen Mist.
27:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Others get what looks like a mild cold, but then medicine was always beyond me.
27:27
[SPEAKER_00]: No, let's leave science to Henry McCoy and his couple.
27:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't do that.
27:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't leave it to Henry McCoy.
27:33
[SPEAKER_00]: to see a different kind of doctor.
27:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this is wild to say to a child.
27:37
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a wild thing to say to a child.
27:39
[SPEAKER_00]: They were like, so you told me I was sick.
27:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And she was like, hmm, yeah, no, I don't worry about that.
27:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Me not being an expert in any type of medicine.
27:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I've decided that you're okay.
27:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Usually people die, though.
27:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm fine, I'm looking at you, I mean, yeah, apart from the big bags around your eyes and the fact that everybody seems to be terrified of you and worried for you, you're fine.
28:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, she goes, no, let's leave science, the Henry McCoy and his kind, we're here to see a different kind of doctor's app, and if you think New York is overwhelming, well, you haven't seen anything yet.
28:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Doctor Strange, I hope you came at a good time, you did remember our appointment.
28:16
[SPEAKER_01]: And Dr. Stranger's look at a rough y'all.
28:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes, I was just settling a little coral in the under dimensions between a group of spectral cannibals and the Kiraushu tribes.
28:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Nasty business, but also, no, please, please come in.
28:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And this must be the gifted young girl we spoke about.
28:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Sapna, is it?
28:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't be rude.
28:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Say hello to Dr. Stranger, Sapna.
28:35
[SPEAKER_00]: He's really dawning on me.
28:35
[SPEAKER_00]: The magic's a bit of a prick.
28:38
[SPEAKER_01]: She's, she doesn't know how to be with children.
28:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I imagine very well.
28:42
[SPEAKER_01]: She says, hello.
28:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been anxious to meet you, Sapna.
28:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I know I look like a bit of a mess at the moment, but I promise I'm one of the good guys.
28:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh God, Jesus Christ.
28:56
[SPEAKER_00]: This child's like seven, you guys.
28:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And also, right, so you've taken this poor, lonely isolated brown girl and all the white adults are going, I'm one of the good ones.
29:08
[SPEAKER_00]: As you can tell, they were signaling what was happening.
29:12
[SPEAKER_00]: But Dr.
29:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Strange, yes, that's why he's one of the good ones.
29:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And she says, it's nice to meet you too.
29:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And magic says,
29:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Stefan, before we begin, I have to thank you again for your help.
29:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, Magic and Dr.
29:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Strange have a relationship.
29:24
[SPEAKER_01]: She has trained under him as an apprentice to a certain degree, although it's not been played up a lot in comics.
29:30
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Dr.
29:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Strange says, of course, Melyana, it's nothing.
29:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm as fascinated as you are with Sapna's quick mystical development.
29:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know not this.
29:38
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, for all you and the others did when you helped move the gene gray school to limbo.
29:42
[SPEAKER_01]: So we get a flashback to magic, Dr.
29:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Strange, Shaman, Scarlet Witch, Dr. Voodoo, and then we move back to the present, magic says.
29:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Without you, X-haven wouldn't exist.
29:52
[SPEAKER_01]: The conflict between mutants and humans is a complicated affair for sure, but saving lives transcends politics.
29:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll do it again without a second thought, Aliana.
30:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's just hope that we can all help you come home soon.
30:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes?
30:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Now then, Saphna, I'm dying to get a better look at what makes you tick.
30:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's best if we do this in the interim.
30:12
[SPEAKER_01]: kidding, it's actually quite a comfy little room.
30:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And I made tea sapna.
30:17
[SPEAKER_01]: There have been mutants in the past whose abilities are directly connected to magic, but I'm sensing there's more to you than that.
30:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you mind if I cast a cursory detection spell?
30:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I promise it won't hurt a bit.
30:28
[SPEAKER_01]: She says, uh, okay.
30:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Excellent, now just hold still a moment.
30:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Ah, interesting, Eliana, do you see it?
30:35
[SPEAKER_01]: The shape of her power.
30:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it looks like different phonetic characters, outfits.
30:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Some I recognize others.
30:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it seems her mutation isn't magical at all, but linguistic in nature, the ability to absorb, translate and fully understand the language, is of anything in any one around her.
30:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Language, I don't get it.
30:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, at their essence, all magic and old spells are just a language, etc.
31:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And your power manifested while you were in limbo.
31:02
[SPEAKER_01]: So, so you absorbed all the magical knowledge around you, which in a mystical dimension, like limbo's case, is extremely vast.
31:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So, like, if my power manifested while I was in math class, I would have gotten really smart at math instead of magic.
31:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I suppose so, which you know, maybe don't take the child to the demon dimension.
31:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, that's all I'm saying.
31:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And in the future, you may indeed be able to absorb and decipher many more such languages, but I think you're mind and body are still processing all the magical information you took in during that initial burst.
31:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So for now, at least, you are at your saturation point.
31:39
[SPEAKER_01]: and there was something else too.
31:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you sense it, Eliana?
31:43
[SPEAKER_00]: No, what was it?
31:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Something just below the surface of her consciousness unrelated to her power, but well, frankly, it's impossible to explain.
31:52
[SPEAKER_01]: It was very foreign, like trying not to describe a color that's not yet ben-advented.
31:58
[SPEAKER_01]: With your permission, I'd like to take another look.
32:01
[SPEAKER_01]: A little trip inside your mind.
32:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Will you come with us, Magic?
32:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, of course, I won't leave you aside, I promise.
32:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Old on, this may be a bit jarring, so this is a very Professor X astral projection style.
32:13
[SPEAKER_01]: They go into Sapna's mind where they get attacked by a scary tenical monster and a nearly overwhelmed both the magicians.
32:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Before Sapna seizes her power, speaks a mystic word, and destroys the monster's inner brain.
32:26
[SPEAKER_01]: They all land back on earth, and magic says,
32:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Satna, are you all right?
32:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, yes I think so.
32:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Stefan, we're both there.
32:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I have no idea, but it's gone.
32:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Gone?
32:37
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you mean?
32:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean just gone.
32:39
[SPEAKER_01]: No trace to anywhere near Satna.
32:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Magic, I want to go home.
32:43
[SPEAKER_00]: It's okay, Satna, I'm here.
32:44
[SPEAKER_01]: What if it comes back?
32:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't worry, I won't let that thing out you promise.
32:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Ert, Ert, Eliana, I don't think you understand.
32:51
[SPEAKER_01]: That thing wasn't coming for Satna.
32:53
[SPEAKER_01]: It was coming for you.
32:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't, don't, don't, don't.
32:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we have a lot to unpack here, Ash.
32:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Where are you waiting?
33:00
[SPEAKER_00]: We do.
33:01
[SPEAKER_00]: What are you talking about?
33:01
[SPEAKER_01]: What are you talking about?
33:02
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not the doctor's strange adventure.
33:03
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot better, no.
33:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Honey.
33:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So, bed to everybody's bedside manner is terrible.
33:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Everybody's bedside manner is terrible.
33:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, okay, so remember in civil war two, there was that in human who could,
33:16
[SPEAKER_00]: predict the future and they thought predict the future to 100% accuracy and largely people talked about him more than they talked to him and here I feel like because it's like magic and doctor strange who they love to have talk about magical stuff there's a lot of like diet
33:37
[SPEAKER_00]: What do we do?
33:38
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just a lot of exposition of like our look linguistics, but again, I think the side thing of that So everybody talks around satin a bit in this, but she's still doing cool things and so I was like, okay But again, this is what teed her up in my mind as like this is gonna be an important character because at this point You've got like cool manifestation you've got an animal sidekick
33:59
[SPEAKER_00]: You've got my powers aren't what we thought they were at the first, yeah.
34:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And all of these are like hallmarks of you're going to be here at about this character for quite a long time.
34:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Sapna is given how many issues she's actually involved in.
34:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's extremely interesting, layer of knowledge.
34:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And she has 12 appearances.
34:16
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you got to consider to like the X-Men are in over their heads.
34:20
[SPEAKER_01]: The world blocks everything going on.
34:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Sapna's lucky she got rescued because I've got some.
34:24
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a couple thousand other little mutant kids who did not get rescued.
34:28
[SPEAKER_01]: The mutant gene has just become activated again and now they're talking about Fox, right?
34:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, so she saved, but now she's got to save herself.
34:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what are what other choice does she have?
34:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I do like the magic one to Dr.
34:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Strange instead of the beast, though.
34:40
[SPEAKER_01]: That was the reason for the reason for the responsible for bringing the original X-Men to the present.
34:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is where like the watcher shows up at his house and is like, fuck you, Henry McCoy.
34:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
34:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
34:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
34:53
[SPEAKER_00]: That was quite funny.
34:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know that that thing when they say that people meet their destiny on the path they took to avoid it.
34:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like since then he got worse.
35:02
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would like us to revisit that moment personally for least at some point.
35:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Stay tuned in my show.
35:07
[SPEAKER_01]: We're doing a huge academic panel in December on the watchers, so we will for sure talk about that specific scene in some detail because I love it.
35:14
[SPEAKER_01]: It's one of my favorite moments in comics of all time.
35:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, in issue 10, Sapna's learning how to make gollums out of rocks and magic is fighting them and boogers is there and magic theorizes that with Sapna's growing power, she might even be able to resurrect the dead.
35:30
[SPEAKER_01]: and she's planning to investigate the portals that SAPNA point it out soon.
35:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And then SAPNA gets an old blue and yellow X-Men uniform and she's like, oh, and there's a cute little trading suit, right?
35:41
[SPEAKER_00]: She's like, oh, fuck, can I call you fucking uniform, man?
35:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, a child's suit.
35:46
[SPEAKER_00]: She should have tapped her in.
35:47
[SPEAKER_00]: They should have tapped her in.
35:49
[SPEAKER_00]: This was just that they were teaing her up.
35:50
[SPEAKER_00]: They kept the, like, the crescendos were building.
35:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I saw the vision.
35:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I really did see the vision.
35:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a lot of other stories going on, but Sapna is fun, and it's very consistent.
36:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Jeff Lemir's a good storyteller when you give him room for sure.
36:03
[SPEAKER_01]: In issue 11, Sapna sneaks out of X Haven with boogers, and she leaves a letter behind.
36:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Dear Illyana, please don't be mad at me, but I think I need to leave X Haven.
36:13
[SPEAKER_01]: You've been so nice to me.
36:14
[SPEAKER_01]: You're like the big sister I never had.
36:16
[SPEAKER_01]: You're so pretty and cool, and you taught me so much, and I'm just a total coward.
36:22
[SPEAKER_01]: It's only now that you've gone off to save the X-Men that I have the courage to tell you the truth about me.
36:28
[SPEAKER_01]: There's some things that
36:29
[SPEAKER_01]: that I've kept to myself because I was scared and that you wouldn't want me around anymore.
36:33
[SPEAKER_01]: My mother and father left me when my power started because they thought I was evil.
36:37
[SPEAKER_01]: You told me that wasn't true, but I didn't tell you everything.
36:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I am evil.
36:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Ever since my power started, I've been having dreams.
36:45
[SPEAKER_01]: No, not dreams, they're nightmares.
36:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And we get an image of Safna using the sole sort to kill magic, which is a nightmare she's clearly been having.
36:53
[SPEAKER_01]: But now they're getting more and more real and I'm scared.
36:56
[SPEAKER_01]: They aren't nightmares at all, but visions of what will happen if I stay here.
37:00
[SPEAKER_01]: But lately there's been something else too, a voice.
37:03
[SPEAKER_01]: It's calling to me.
37:04
[SPEAKER_01]: It's telling me that it can help me, that it can take the bad stuff away and make me good again.
37:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know whose voice it is, but I do know where it is coming from.
37:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm sorry, Iliana.
37:14
[SPEAKER_01]: You mean so much to me, I couldn't live with myself if I ever hurt you.
37:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going away now.
37:19
[SPEAKER_01]: and I'm not coming back unless I'm cured and then she enters a portal and this is heart-breaking.
37:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, the queer analogy here of like queer and trans kids that feel like they have to leave to confront the evil in them that are making their parents uncomfortable.
37:35
[SPEAKER_01]: That story always breaks my heart, but also no, girl, you're in danger.
37:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't do it.
37:40
[SPEAKER_01]: What does matter?
37:41
[SPEAKER_01]: It shows her innocence very, very clearly.
37:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it does show her innocence and I think it mirrors a lot of other stories.
37:48
[SPEAKER_00]: When I read that, I think of, I think of Miss Marvel's connection to Captain Marvel and the way she idolized this person that had flaws that she didn't recognize.
38:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think part of, you know, that let us speak to Satna idolizing magic so much.
38:07
[SPEAKER_00]: and thinking that she had to leave because she was even and she joins this sort of list of this list of girls from other countries whose manifestation is inherently tied to the idea of evil so magic and then you've got like oil who thought that she was a demon and cursed and then you've got satna who thought she was a demon and cursed and she leaves and it's heartbreaking it feels so so dangerous
38:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Iliana had no choice, but Sapna is making choices that she shouldn't have to be making.
38:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's one of the key things as this little child, you know.
38:37
[SPEAKER_00]: There's like a bit of an inversion there because you have magic and Sapna.
38:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Both of whom are trapped in, who are in limbo and have too much knowledge, right?
38:47
[SPEAKER_00]: The curse of, the curse of knowing too much, sure.
38:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And where magic was confined to limbo,
38:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Sapna has the opposite challenge.
38:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Sapna is free to go wherever she wants.
38:57
[SPEAKER_00]: So magic had to stay and was confined in limbo and her whole job was to escape.
39:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And so Sapna becomes sort of the thematic opposite of that, which is what if you could run away would that actually be any better?
39:08
[SPEAKER_00]: What if you could escape anywhere that you wanted to?
39:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think it was an interesting like flip of the story instead of the girl traps.
39:15
[SPEAKER_00]: The girl who is so free.
39:16
[SPEAKER_00]: that she runs away from safety and protection and guidance.
39:20
[SPEAKER_00]: In issue 12, magic is yanked through time into an alternate dimension where some weird, withered odd ladies explain that their mother is SAPNAR and SAPNAR ended all life and created the kingdom of death.
39:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So the world is devastated and they need magic to kill SAPNAR.
39:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Classic, classic little bit of mattresside.
39:36
[SPEAKER_00]: They explain centuries ago, SAPNAR fell from your side and without your guidance, she became a force of great evil.
39:42
[SPEAKER_00]: she lay waste to all of mutant kind and all of mankind.
39:45
[SPEAKER_00]: But we, the good ones refused to grow up in her shadow.
39:48
[SPEAKER_00]: We have dedicated our lives to fighting her reign.
39:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Your passage through time was documented in the great chronicles of the magical resistance.
39:55
[SPEAKER_00]: We knew that if we could contact you warn you, maybe her rise to power could be aborted before it was ever started.
40:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And then they tell magic that she has to go back in time and kill sap know when she was a kid.
40:06
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is another Iliana story amplified, right?
40:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Iliana has this darkness within her.
40:11
[SPEAKER_01]: She's had to like fight to find the innocence, but here's this kid that jumped in and didn't know what she was facing.
40:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And now we have a literal evil version of her who is an adult who is devastating a world.
40:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's like freedom fighters like trying to survive.
40:26
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a rough.
40:27
[SPEAKER_01]: But another thing with magic is time travel.
40:30
[SPEAKER_01]: If you go back and read that brilliant original magic limited series, it's like she's living in limbo, both as a child and as an old lady at the same time, right?
40:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's these versions of her interacting in very odd ways.
40:42
[SPEAKER_01]: So Sapna, again, Jeff is really a job of capturing these different complexities in Eliana's character, reflected in Sapna.
40:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
40:50
[SPEAKER_00]: When I scan back over the comments in preparation for this, I realized how deeply satanist story is actually just about magic.
40:57
[SPEAKER_00]: It's meant to echo magic.
40:59
[SPEAKER_00]: It's meant to call back on magic situation.
41:01
[SPEAKER_00]: It's meant to show different failures or strengths in magic as a mentor.
41:05
[SPEAKER_00]: As an ex-man, as a hero, as a teacher, as a
41:08
[SPEAKER_00]: as a sister, and I would really love it if Saturn got a story for her, you know.
41:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And so as these things develop, we see a future of her that is warped.
41:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, I think that's, that happens to a lot of characters, like this twisted future, or like the threat of their potential.
41:25
[SPEAKER_01]: They come a very clear storytelling device.
41:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's the literature we have to avoid, right?
41:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and who, who go?
41:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I mean, off the top of my head, I can think, I mean, the civil war two thing with miles who they, you know, they said, but in the future, he'd kill Captain America.
41:40
[SPEAKER_00]: prodigy go it remember when they were like if you ever on they gave prodigy that vision of his future if he ever took the barriers off his power and he was like a megalomaniac and he was bombing countries and stuff yeah i mean there's probably 10,000 examples yeah of course like if we kill Robert Kelly in the past then it changes today's a future past and in the future right like it's in the back
42:01
[SPEAKER_01]: cap power corrupts and if you don't have the opportunity and that's where the mutant and queer allegories never line up is these kids do have superpowers like in their DNA and if they are not properly trained or allowed to grow or develop then inevitably they will turn evil because power corrupts and that's always
42:18
[SPEAKER_01]: but in limbo specifically limbo's connected to kind of the elder gods and these like realms of the Ungarai and like all these other places.
42:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So these timing why me crazy things that exist concurrently, we now have like innocent sapna but also evil sapna.
42:33
[SPEAKER_01]: So this expands in issue 13, magic and storm are trailing sapna with a spell and they find boogers before they pass through another of sapna's portals.
42:43
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a bunch of realms that seem ancient and devastated, and they meet a bunch of mystic warriors.
42:48
[SPEAKER_01]: These are characters that have never been seen before or since.
42:51
[SPEAKER_01]: We have Anne Tenna, two names like bad drag name, right?
42:56
[SPEAKER_01]: A N N E space T N N A. Wow, there's Jack Craw, there's Spectra and Enic, who's like a goat man.
43:04
[SPEAKER_01]: He might be my favorite.
43:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're all ranting about a world eater with like a magical lattice.
43:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And in 14, these are subplots.
43:11
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot going out of the books.
43:13
[SPEAKER_01]: In 14 Storm and Magic, find another realm full of like monstrous skeletons.
43:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And here's where they finally find Sapna, who the little girl still.
43:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And she initially hugs magic, but then attacks her and storm.
43:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And she steals the soul sword and abandons them in the portal.
43:28
[SPEAKER_01]: So remember that little girl earlier that was like,
43:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you control all the realms?
43:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Like how do you control limbo?
43:34
[SPEAKER_01]: She was taking notes, right?
43:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Like she was figuring it out.
43:37
[SPEAKER_01]: So 15, we learn from the mystics that this entity called by the way, uh, Ciaqla, CIAKLA, Ciaqla, the hunger,
43:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Some others call her the feed demon, the king of souls has consumed all life in this world and is passing through to the next world on a host that it's soon used up so it's very proteus like this entity that has taken root in Sapna has like using her up.
44:03
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like desiccating her and is using her innocence to pass through to the next realm which is literally
44:09
[SPEAKER_01]: The Belasco story, Belasco's trying to drain all of Eligana's innocence so that he can become one of their commune with the elder gods of the Ungarai, right?
44:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So the mystics are based in a devastated land called Myhava, MAIHAVA, and they have each survived one of these like broken realms.
44:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Sapna soon leads a hoard of demons to attack ex-haven directly, and she has the soul sword, and it's finally an issue 16 where the fight intensifies as magic is trying to stop the threat, but also save Sapna's soul.
44:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so magic gets us also back.
44:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And in the 16, the fight intensifies, so magic tries to reach out to Sapna's soul.
44:49
[SPEAKER_00]: While the enemy, you see atleau the hunger.
44:51
[SPEAKER_00]: is possessing Sapna and nearly destroying Exhaven.
44:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Magic ends up killing the entity with the soul sword, but it results in Sapna's death as well.
45:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And then Magic is sitting there cradling Sapna's body at the end and declaring that Exhaven had failed.
45:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Then Magic realizes that she could hear Sapna's be like soul and Sapna's voice from within this sword.
45:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Matt Sapna's soul gets stuck in the sword itself.
45:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is ex-haven, the word Haven implies safety.
45:21
[SPEAKER_01]: The world there wasn't safe, so we made another world here.
45:24
[SPEAKER_01]: This has got another example of the mutant homeland getting overrun, failing because of all of the threats that exist.
45:31
[SPEAKER_01]: They weren't able to save this child.
45:34
[SPEAKER_01]: At heartbreaker, it really is a very sad story for both Sapna, of course, but also magic.
45:39
[SPEAKER_00]: It is, what do you think of the white savior aspects of it?
45:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Mmm, tell me your thoughts.
45:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Magic swoops in, saves her from a hard situation, brings her to a place that almost isn't much better, which ultimately leads to her being connected to a huge amount of overwhelming magical information.
45:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Sapna is corrupted in a very similar way to magic, and where magic was saved and redeemed, Sapna.
45:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Magic is poured in a round in different places, to have loads of different people going, you should kill her, actually.
46:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that you try to save everybody else, but this one is too far, too bad, too corrupted.
46:08
[SPEAKER_00]: She should die.
46:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, as a girl of color, that's interesting.
46:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really pleased, as we look at it, that further up through that lens, I'm really pleased that Storm is there to kind of balance it out.
46:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Is she, cause a lady, so that's not, huh?
46:21
[SPEAKER_00]: It's brown face is telling you to kill the brown go.
46:24
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you've got to throw it in my sweaters.
46:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's napmas daughters say no kill her.
46:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you can't kill her on her and so you take storms.
46:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So storm can go, yes, she's evil.
46:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And then ultimately, it doesn't, it doesn't echo to you.
46:37
[SPEAKER_00]: The Miss Marvel, dear.
46:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it does actually, you know, and when I read this, I very much read it as the death of a child, but I didn't think of it as the death of a brown child, which of course it is that's that's said that's that's unfortunate and the story isn't really about satna it's and it's about magic and how sad she is and how much she wants to save and help and couldn't and tried.
46:59
[SPEAKER_00]: and Sapna in this suffers and suffers and suffers and tries and tries and adores her heaps praises on her in the middle goes, you're so pretty and amazing and wonderful and perfect and I'm just not good enough and runs off.
47:12
[SPEAKER_01]: We very easily could have changed the ending of this where it's still the epic story but the child survives and it changes the entire tone.
47:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Sapna could have had more of an agency in this story because Sapna wasn't helpless, and I think there's a point here where Sapna goes from incredibly powerful to incredibly helpless.
47:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Sapna isn't just possessed by this entity.
47:30
[SPEAKER_00]: She also knows all of the magic in limbo, and if magic had enough wires and ingenuity to escape Belasco, Sapna even had more.
47:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Sapna had wires, ingenuity, all the
47:47
[SPEAKER_01]: It's almost as the Sapna's last act was to run away, right?
47:52
[SPEAKER_01]: This like voices in her mind telling her what to do.
47:54
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the goblin prince or whatever his name is.
47:57
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a goblin king in labyrinth, luring the child away to eat its soul.
48:01
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the evil witch praying on the innocent kid.
48:04
[SPEAKER_01]: But when it's a kid of color, that does change the story for sure.
48:07
[SPEAKER_00]: It does, and I mean, no one in comics ever really does, and so these permanent deaths and these long-term deaths actually start to stand out more than others, because if you die, you don't come back.
48:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I thought Krakow was going to be an amazing chance for us to bring Saphna back, because everybody was being brought back.
48:25
[SPEAKER_00]: That wasn't quite the story.
48:26
[SPEAKER_00]: She hasn't quite died like...
48:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we do get a little bit of resolution.
48:30
[SPEAKER_01]: So because her soul is living in the sword, we jump to issue 19, which is the middle of Inhuman's versus X-Men, the IVX event that fans kind of universally really struggle with.
48:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Although there are some decent stories in this route.
48:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I know it's not favorite for people.
48:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Magic's fighting the Inhuman's with their team and Sapna pulls magic's mind inside the soul sword.
48:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a world of darkness where she's living lonely.
48:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Sapna tries to help magic there against her will.
48:55
[SPEAKER_01]: even thinking maybe if magic dies, then she can stay with me, and I won't be alone forever.
49:01
[SPEAKER_01]: But she reluctantly lets magic go to face the evil threat of crystal, the messy inhuman, which is, I love crystal.
49:08
[SPEAKER_01]: She's, she's the messy out of the earth.
49:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And then Saphna pulls magic back inside, and in this event, magic is able to pull Saphna's soul back into the real world.
49:17
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, she doesn't get her body back.
49:20
[SPEAKER_01]: She just becomes a ghost that fades away.
49:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And she's a ghost to only magic can see, and I think this sort of body horror, this sort of thing, is exactly the premise of a film's like, gal.
49:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
49:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Losing your body, losing your physical autonomy.
49:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I think if you read this story, very focused on magic and a white perspective, this is like magic, trying and failing.
49:40
[SPEAKER_00]: If you read this from a brown perspective, this is a poor girl, so not from a dangerous situation, who suffers is plagued.
49:46
[SPEAKER_00]: doesn't think she's worth it and then her body is taken and she ends up being owned and like ownership the way that magic has confused save saving with owning the fact that you end up with satna's soul in your sword carrying around like a tamagotchi and then you like resurrector as a ghost that only you can see and the fact that like that loneliness that satna felt in the sword you know when she pulls magic in and
50:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And she's like, if you die, you can stay here with me.
50:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think like the crux of the story is like, no, Saphna, this is ridiculous and immoral.
50:16
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a 10-year-old child who lost everything and is now being thrown into another dark dimension with no powers and no community.
50:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And of course she'd be lonely.
50:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, she died and now she's in the sort.
50:26
[SPEAKER_00]: So why would it be crazy to think that you were dying common to be with me?
50:29
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, when you said that nothing would ever happen to me and you'd protect me forever.
50:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And now I live alone in the dark dimension of your sort.
50:36
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a 10-year-old.
50:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was a really, really tragic, tragic story and I think way more for Sapna, than magic, because for magic, this is like I failed at, because she says, you know, it's haven is a failure.
50:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I get why that is a good like coming of age transition story for an ex-man.
50:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And usually they do have that, the teachers have like a failed teacher moment.
50:55
[SPEAKER_00]: But usually then that spurs them on into bigger higher things, you know?
50:58
[SPEAKER_01]: If this story had ended with the child surviving, it would be very different.
51:03
[SPEAKER_01]: However, we just haven't done see, we open today by talking about how, I don't know what direction Lumiere planned or it's rare for us to be able to see a character story front to back.
51:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I do like that we get an ending, even though it's not an ending, we desire.
51:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And Saptop becomes one of those hundreds of Marvel characters or even X-Men characters.
51:24
[SPEAKER_01]: who has so much potential and could literally be living out there as a as a resurrected person maybe she's in the white hot room with all the krekoa kids maybe she's out there and there's a writer that will bring her back.
51:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I always really love to explore the potential of a character when we're having these conversations and this is a character with unlimited untapped potential not only in limbo but as an agent unto herself as her power you brought up prodigy or David Elaine before
51:53
[SPEAKER_01]: or could take her to that level of power, where she has the ability to adapt to language.
52:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And look at what's being done with Doug Ramsay is kind of revelation in the modern comics.
52:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, like, untouchable and even higher degree, even without the magic, this character has a tremendous amount of power, and she never got to figure out who she was.
52:12
[SPEAKER_01]: This is tragic at like a more lock massacre at kind of level.
52:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, this is like innocence being slaughtered, and that's sad, that's a sad thing.
52:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
52:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Very true.
52:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, yeah, but you know this is I think this is this is part and parcel for the experiment I mean gene had Phoenix magic has dark child everybody's everybody in their fucking cousin has like a horrible possessing cosmic force That has made them do some evil things.
52:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think something can come back when I raised a strange Academy earlier I that's where I would put Sapper like in a strange Academy place because they're doing all fucking sorts
52:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think like stumbling on Sapna, Sapna in some way would put her exactly where she's meant to be.
53:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she's a fantastic character and I think I agree.
53:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that there is a certain spot for her.
53:06
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, one of the recent shows I did, uh, character shows I did was on Arty Maddox.
53:10
[SPEAKER_01]: The little, the little pink emoji kid and we talked about like he's kind of been like between the ages of 7 and 10 for like 30 years now.
53:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's there's particular versions of this kind of next generation of characters that have so much potential to be kind of amplified out, but like a newer new mutants level and this is where I think readers sometimes get pretty frustrated.
53:32
[SPEAKER_01]: We have a whole new generation of new students introduced.
53:35
[SPEAKER_01]: but there's these hundreds of characters that if given the right love could thrive.
53:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I was fond of this character when I did my research, but this conversation has like really solidified her as like a tremendous amount of potential.
53:47
[SPEAKER_01]: We also don't have a lot of mutants from India.
53:49
[SPEAKER_01]: There's just, I mean, there's try and airy and there's Indra, just not a lot.
53:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And Sapna has, that's one of the largest populations on the planet.
53:57
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of potential for her.
54:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so glad we talked today, Aaj, and I like this character a lot, and it's lovely to get to know you.
54:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have any kind of concluding thoughts on Sapna?
54:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for your skilled and rich research capability.
54:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I love the way that you portrayed her through your lens, that it taught me a lot as well.
54:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you.
54:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
54:20
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a pleasure to come on to speak.
54:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Closing thoughts.
54:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a lot of sacrificial lands in X-Men.
54:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I think X-Men has always been a little bit of a sacrificial land property.
54:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think Saturna is one of those, one of the long list of sacrificial lands.
54:36
[SPEAKER_00]: and I would love for her to come back and be able to own a story that is hers outside of the many layers of suffering that she actually sat under.
54:46
[SPEAKER_00]: This is, you know, but like, extermination, you've got the charging miss, you've got living in limbo, you've got demons around, you've got possessed by a demon, you've got your powers manifest, you've got your parents kicked you out, like there was a lot of shit.
54:58
[SPEAKER_00]: that she came in to, and she still managed to really, really shine in this story.
55:02
[SPEAKER_01]: It deserves more than trauma, and also she's more than just like a horror character, because ultimately that's what her story is.
55:08
[SPEAKER_01]: She's the little girl that got corrupted and then died at the end of the movie.
55:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly, and even if she came back, even if she came back, oh, a horror character, because magic is kind of that.
55:18
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, magic is kind of that.
55:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think there's loads of ways she can come back.
55:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the thing that I would love, because Dr.
55:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Strange sort of hints in it, is that she can learn other languages.
55:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And I would love Sapna as this character who shifts fundamentally based on what she's learned.
55:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Because now we know her as this sort of magical, this magical prodigy character.
55:39
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's because that's the language she knows.
55:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And the idea that she could come back to learn a different language
55:46
[SPEAKER_00]: and be like an alien, an alien, an alien stop politician because she understands everybody's language and she's like flitting between like the she are and the crey in the squad.
55:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Like there's just so many ways to understand everybody's language.
56:00
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's a, there's a lot of main character for potential for her, but also even if we never got that, if I was writing magic right now and I don't know that Ashley Allen will hear this at any time soon, we could simply have one page.
56:13
[SPEAKER_01]: where magic takes a break from the X-Men and stops in New Delhi and has lunch with Sapna one day and Sapna's thriving.
56:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's in school and she gives magic a big hug and says, I'm so glad to see you.
56:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so happy here after Cricoa.
56:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And then like, even if that's all we got, that's beautiful, you know, like sometimes that's all we get.
56:30
[SPEAKER_01]: But the unresolved potential is I think the biggest tragedy here.
56:34
[SPEAKER_00]: It is, it is, and unfortunately, last quiet.
56:36
[SPEAKER_00]: That's really, really quite common with Black and Brown characters.
56:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Because nine times out of ten, we're put into stories, or Black and Brown characters, are put into stories to show a level of diversity, or to show a super, superficial level of, like, yeah, look, this is wildly, but actually, do they get the focus?
56:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Do they ever end up being leading any of these stories?
56:55
[SPEAKER_00]: We keep resurrecting the same 25 people, so they can lead the stories forever.
57:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you get this churn of, like,
57:04
[SPEAKER_00]: and all the, and all the, and all the missed potential.
57:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'd love for some of these stories.
57:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think, for Sattner, for me, would be like, one of my top five.
57:11
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, if you, if you had to pick a character out of obscurity and put them somewhere, I, I think that would be amazing.
57:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Because like, honestly, and I'm sorry to throw him under the bus, but I never want to read about Quentin, quite again.
57:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I just don't.
57:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I just don't.
57:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think he's done anything truly, truly interesting for decades.
57:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually want to tremendous joy to connect so glad to have the friend of you.
57:38
[SPEAKER_01]: You're easy on the eyes, you're easy on the ears, and you're super fucking smart.
57:42
[SPEAKER_01]: So this was delicious.
57:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I was really lovely to spend the afternoon with you.
57:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
57:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm an ex of words, so you can find me an ex of words on pretty much every platform.
57:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, come this and come talk with us.
57:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Come talk with us over there.
57:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to have you back to my house sometime, feel free to invite me to yours too.
57:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I would love to go hang out over there.
57:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Over on the main show, we are going to continue conversations for Halloween month, all about different kind of Halloween themes.
58:05
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going into the world of Saber 2 with a little bit.
58:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So watch for an episode on Ruins of Ravencroft, Saber 2 number 1.
58:13
[SPEAKER_01]: My featured guest on that episode is Tony Flieks, and then we're finishing the month out with the trials of the son of Satan and his sister,
58:21
[SPEAKER_01]: which will be a delicious time as well.
58:23
[SPEAKER_01]: So thanks everybody for listening.
58:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much to Ashley and for joining me today.
58:26
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll see you next time on another Graimalk and Lane Patreon.
58:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And now stay tuned for some thoughts on fascism as a special guest and I talk about a red skull story and its modern applications.
58:40
[SPEAKER_01]: In the summer of 1940, after the rapid defeat of France, senior Nazi officials revived an idea that had circulated in European anti-Semitic circles for decades, forcibly removing Europe's Jews to the island of Madagascar.
58:53
[SPEAKER_01]: The proposal became known as the Madagascar plan, and it gained momentum within Germany's foreign office under it, officials such as Frans Rotomacher, who drafted Memorand outlining the scheme.
59:03
[SPEAKER_01]: At the time, Madagascar was a French colony,
59:09
[SPEAKER_01]: peaceful control of French overseas territories could be transferred to Germany.
59:14
[SPEAKER_01]: The idea was presented as a territorial solution to what the regime called the Jewish question.
59:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Under the plan, millions of Jews from across Europe would be deported by ship to Madagascar where they would live under German police supervision.
59:26
[SPEAKER_01]: in what amounted to a massive island ghetto.
59:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Nazi documents envisioned confiscating Jewish property to finance the deportations and placing the SS in administrative control.
59:37
[SPEAKER_01]: It all f-i-c-min, a name you might recognize, and others within the SS examined logistical possibilities, though even on paper, the transportation demands were staggering.
59:45
[SPEAKER_01]: The plan assumed a German naval dominance and the ability to move vast populations across wartime seas, conditions that never required materialized.
59:54
[SPEAKER_01]: While sometimes later described as an alternative to genocide, which is a rough thing to think about, the Madagascar plan was never humanitarian.
1:00:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Internal discussions made clear that deportees would be subjected to harsh conditions and indirect methods of destruction.
1:00:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Some proposals anticipated that disease, starvation, and isolation would significantly reduce the population over time.
1:00:13
[SPEAKER_01]: The island was imagined less as a refuge than as a containment zone where Jews would be removed from Europe permanently.
1:00:19
[SPEAKER_01]: By late 1940 and early 1941, the plan became impractical.
1:00:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Britain remained in the war, Germany lacked naval control.
1:00:26
[SPEAKER_01]: and attention shifted eastward with the invasion of the Soviet Union, as mass shootings of Jews escalated in occupied Eastern Europe and policy radicalized, the regime moved toward systemic extermination.
1:00:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Historians view the Madagascar plan as part of the transitional phase in Nazi policy, evidence that forced removal and territorial expulsion were seriously considered before the machinery of industrialized murder was fully implemented.
1:00:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, we're going to jump back into the world of uncanny Avengers number four.
1:00:54
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the Rick Remender Post Avengers vs X-Men series.
1:00:57
[SPEAKER_01]: When the Red Skull has gotten the brain of Charles Xavier grafted to his own, and is now running his own group of S-Men.
1:01:04
[SPEAKER_01]: So in this issue, the Red Skull walks through the streets, giving orders to put people to death.
1:01:08
[SPEAKER_01]: He's making the heroes fight each other.
1:01:10
[SPEAKER_01]: He hangs the Nazi eagle blankets the streets in swastikas and surrounds himself with armed men and tanks.
1:01:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, come to the right, eternal adorages.
1:01:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Rejoice broken spirits, I bring you a better world, a global rake built on art and intellectual pursuit, orderly safe and clean.
1:01:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I know you're pain.
1:01:28
[SPEAKER_01]: You reel from the sad state of your nation as did I once upon a time.
1:01:32
[SPEAKER_01]: You cannot ignore the truth your melting pot has failed.
1:01:35
[SPEAKER_01]: How it pains you to watch this capitalism, this greed, rot your homeland from within.
1:01:40
[SPEAKER_01]: You often ask yourself why?
1:01:42
[SPEAKER_01]: You continue to dance for these entitled wretches who have strayed so far from what you
1:01:47
[SPEAKER_01]: America replies, shut up, I love my country, I believe in America, but the red school just puts them to sleep, is a little switch in his brain.
1:01:54
[SPEAKER_01]: The best way to sell a lie is to believe it yourself.
1:01:57
[SPEAKER_01]: When the people see you hunting mutants in the streets, they will rally behind their noble hero.
1:02:01
[SPEAKER_01]: We will direct their rage in frustration at this minority, giving a face to their pain, a face they can crush.
1:02:07
[SPEAKER_01]: We will elevate the common man to nobility by simply denying the mutants rights reserved for humans.
1:02:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Voting shared public utilities, marriage, then after we've grown our army, frothing, or hit the word frothing, frothing and impassioned, we will wipe the mutants out.
1:02:23
[SPEAKER_01]: We will win the war for America through a humanity, and in return they will beg us to rule them.
1:02:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Seeing your nation with flesh eyes, my dear Captain America, I assure you, you've lost your war.
1:02:33
[SPEAKER_01]: It just happens so slowly, you grow accustomed to it.
1:02:37
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you look to your heart, you will realize the truth, you're no longer fighting to preserve this rancid nation, you're fighting to change it back.
1:02:45
[SPEAKER_01]: To add some semblance of sanity to an incurably sick culture that breeds only parasites greedy polluters and psychotic madmen.
1:02:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope this struggle, you continue out of habit.
1:02:56
[SPEAKER_01]: You imagine that if you fight hard enough one day, you will rest
1:02:59
[SPEAKER_01]: control from the bankers who own you and return this nation to its former glory, clean streets, honest neighbors, attractive wives, green lawns, but in reality this is and will remain your America.
1:03:12
[SPEAKER_01]: An uneducated population fixed on competition material wealth and voyeurism.
1:03:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Violent monsters doused in antibiotics to offset their diet of sugary sweet drink and
1:03:28
[SPEAKER_01]: it's crazy.
1:03:30
[SPEAKER_01]: This is what you fight for.
1:03:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Together we will clean this nation, transform it to one more befitting both of our high ideals.
1:03:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you simply too arrogant to see when you are wrong?
1:03:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Look at your future, are these ignorant rednecks, the goal of your American dream, so Rogan Havix, start whaling on the red skull and Havigil's.
1:03:47
[SPEAKER_01]: You're like the closeted jock who beats on gay kids.
1:03:50
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't hate mutants.
1:03:51
[SPEAKER_01]: You're terrified because you want to be just like us.
1:03:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And the red skull disappears, he just lets the heroes pick up the pieces, saving his vision of the red on slot.
1:04:02
[SPEAKER_01]: In the few, which is going to come a few months in the future here, we get the red skull face to sentinels also in an image that evokes the days of future past.
1:04:09
[SPEAKER_01]: This time with Alex and Wanda in front of the poster to be continued.
1:04:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me welcome my very favorite friend, Alex Segura, to the show with me.
1:04:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Alex, sorry for the word
1:04:21
[SPEAKER_01]: How are you, my friend?
1:04:22
[SPEAKER_03]: Are you a red skull fan, Alex?
1:04:24
[SPEAKER_03]: Happy to be here.
1:04:25
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, he's nice to be invited and good to see you.
1:04:29
[SPEAKER_03]: Look, I was always next-men kid.
1:04:30
[SPEAKER_03]: X-Men, Spider-Man, I think I mentioned this to you.
1:04:33
[SPEAKER_03]: When I did read the Avengers, it was usually West Coast Avengers, because that's what was on the rack.
1:04:38
[SPEAKER_03]: I have a lot of the Bob Harris see that thing.
1:04:40
[SPEAKER_03]: I've had your stuff, and some Mark Greenwall cap.
1:04:43
[SPEAKER_03]: That was like my cap and I've had your stuff.
1:04:45
[SPEAKER_03]: No, in short, I was never a big red skull person, but wow, I got a big dose of it in this issue.
1:04:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Tell me some of your thoughts on this issue of uncanny Avengers.
1:04:53
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the remainder run where it's combining the Avengers and X-Men after Cyclops has just killed Xavier with the with the Phoenix Force if you remember that in God do you?
1:05:03
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't have a lot of knowledge of the, I mean, I know the broad strokes.
1:05:06
[SPEAKER_03]: I know like what you just said, but I was not, I wasn't an active reader of this run, but I like the novelty I'm and I was having read the issue.
1:05:13
[SPEAKER_03]: I really like the idea of like havoc and
1:05:15
[SPEAKER_03]: and warmed up back when she was considered muting, interacting with the Avengers or having interacting with Wanda or a rogue, and it will rain beyond the team.
1:05:22
[SPEAKER_03]: It makes sense plot-wise in the wake of Avengers versus X-Men.
1:05:26
[SPEAKER_03]: IE, like let's get together and prove that the dream was working or can work.
1:05:31
[SPEAKER_03]: So I like that conceit.
1:05:32
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know how long it can last.
1:05:35
[SPEAKER_03]: But again, I hadn't read the whole run, but this issue in particular had an interesting team up, so I like to have it won this stuff.
1:05:40
[SPEAKER_03]: I like the roguing won this stuff that scene at the end was really well done, and I thought Remender captured Rogues personality really well.
1:05:48
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like having doesn't really work for me in this issue, and I know there's stuff coming up that won't work for me, but I think that the arts beautiful, like John Cassidy, what a loss.
1:05:57
[SPEAKER_03]: So every time I look at his art now, I just feel like kind of sadness that we lost him so young, because really, what a great superhero artist he was.
1:06:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, overall was really entertaining.
1:06:07
[SPEAKER_03]: If you would definitely have my attention, but really the skull stuff was just so heavy and so intense and just so off to re-through, but I think that's the point, right?
1:06:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is technically a clone of the red skull who now has the igniting of your brain and it, right?
1:06:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, this is a wild section of continuity and this is what becomes the red onslaught in the big access event for listeners, we'll get there in these conversations in a few weeks.
1:06:31
[SPEAKER_01]: John Cassidy's art beautiful.
1:06:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Now you're coming off of a really wonderful run on Star Wars with Filnoto, just such a beautiful job.
1:06:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm wondering as you look at like the empire in Star Wars and the comparison between that and these like kind of an anti mutant kind of fascist regimes.
1:06:48
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a theme in our comics where we have the oppressive, awful people as the ones that were supposed to punch, you know.
1:06:54
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, definitely.
1:06:55
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, the empire is very fascistic to say the least.
1:06:57
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think what I found interesting about this issue was the blending of the days of future paths, iconography, and methodology.
1:07:06
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, you have the sentinels and that one big splash page that was beautifully drawn with havoc in Wanda in the Wolverine and Cape Pride rolls with the red skulls.
1:07:15
[SPEAKER_03]: by all racist fascists perspective.
1:07:18
[SPEAKER_03]: I found that a little on the nose, but also really interesting to explore, because it makes sense.
1:07:22
[SPEAKER_03]: It makes sense that the red skull would weaponize these racist tools for his own means, and so that was an interesting thing to explore.
1:07:29
[SPEAKER_03]: The challenge with villains like me is that they could very easily become seen chewing monsters and just so, so bad.
1:07:35
[SPEAKER_03]: that there's no no redemption.
1:07:37
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm always more interested in villains that don't think they're villains.
1:07:41
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I know obviously the run school thinks he's right, but his means and methodology are very clearly villainous, whereas something like Magneto, he doesn't think he's the villain.
1:07:49
[SPEAKER_03]: He thinks he's fighting for a great cause, he's just willing to go to different ends to achieve his goals, and can see where he and Xavier overlap in the more clamor version of both
1:07:58
[SPEAKER_01]: My, uh, I give some room in this for, in my review, for the Red Skull speeches, the amount of energy he's putting into spinning why this is so good for the population to turn against these people and have them kill each other, just wildly uncomfortable to read in our charts.
1:08:14
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's days of future past.
1:08:15
[SPEAKER_01]: It's work is, it's, you know, operations, zero tolerance, like these themes in our X-Men comics are so very consistent and the X-Men are like, here we go again.
1:08:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Captain America, of course, experiences that from a very different perspective.
1:08:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we got the Scarlet Witch, who did the no more mutants spell and kind of achieved those goals in a very different way.
1:08:34
[SPEAKER_01]: So some really wildly different perspectives.
1:08:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And I do think Remender does a good job at capturing those from the lens of the telepathic red skull who has formed his own group of kind of S-Men.
1:08:44
[SPEAKER_01]: in this era, who are like very marauders.
1:08:46
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the very terrible super villains again that we just want to see smashed, you know?
1:08:51
[SPEAKER_03]: It's very tense.
1:08:52
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think, you know, I've been in that situation, too, where you're writing a very vial person espousing their views.
1:08:58
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's like, it really hurts you because you obviously don't share these views, but you have to put them on the page kind of to relay what the POV of this character is.
1:09:06
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think the challenge creatively, whenever doing that for depicting violence or depicting,
1:09:11
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, anything like that, it's you don't want to veer into the gratuitous where it feels like you're just doing it because you enjoy doing it.
1:09:17
[SPEAKER_03]: You know what I mean?
1:09:18
[SPEAKER_03]: You're doing it to relay a character trait or a perspective or to further the plot.
1:09:23
[SPEAKER_03]: I think for me, it does a good job of balancing that.
1:09:25
[SPEAKER_03]: I think sometimes a red skulls rant goes a little too long and you're like, okay, is what's happening here.
1:09:29
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think it's really in contrast to cap to Wanda and the heroes.
1:09:34
[SPEAKER_03]: And so it works.
1:09:35
[SPEAKER_03]: It works as an issue, but man, the red skulls sure likes to talk.
1:09:39
[SPEAKER_01]: My red school voice is very fun.
1:09:41
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a trance, like I said.
1:09:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I opened with a forgotten piece of history a little bit.
1:09:47
[SPEAKER_01]: The idea of the Madagascar plan, these kind of early Nazi ideas of let's just round up all the Jews and send them to an African nation, where they'll be isolated and under our control.
1:09:56
[SPEAKER_01]: We hear these wild theories, and all kind of draw the comparison to modern America, where you hear things like, let's label trans people as a terrorist group.
1:10:04
[SPEAKER_01]: let's just gather up the immigrants and toss them in one of those quote unquote shit whole countries and you know like you just let them rot or put them in camps which is which is of course happening all around us that the wild things i don't know if you had any thoughts on the Madagascar plan or even kind of its modern comparisons it's rough when you need these types of ideas given any sort of national platform at any point in history
1:10:24
[SPEAKER_03]: It's hard to listen to it.
1:10:25
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I like to think I'm a bit of a history buff that I hadn't gotten into the details of the Madagascar plan in my experience.
1:10:32
[SPEAKER_03]: So it was really drawing to hear you share that.
1:10:35
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think it would stably haunting to have it feel relevant to the things we're struggling with today, like the trans community, you know.
1:10:44
[SPEAKER_03]: you know, undocumented and even citizens being kidnapped and taken away and hidden away and removed from their rights and their freedoms.
1:10:53
[SPEAKER_03]: Anytime people in power impose things on marginalized groups that is problematic to say police is to take full of its bad and it's just sad that as a world we have an evolved past that and something like World War II which is still relatively
1:11:12
[SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting, and we'll have more of these conversations on my show and some future chats.
1:11:17
[SPEAKER_01]: But Madagascar is kind of a template for the genosha allegory.
1:11:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And romanticism.
1:11:23
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's also a part-eyed and South Africa mixed into that.
1:11:27
[SPEAKER_01]: But the red skulls about to establish concentration caps on genosha, which has gone through some crazy shit, from the Cassandra Nova extermination plot line to some of the more recent stuff that's happened there,
1:11:42
[SPEAKER_01]: but that is zombies, the Josh has just been through it in the classroom a little bit.
1:11:47
[SPEAKER_01]: So my last question for you today, my friend, how you doing in 2026?
1:11:50
[SPEAKER_01]: You and I are friends.
1:11:52
[SPEAKER_01]: We've established a good friendship through the show.
1:11:54
[SPEAKER_01]: We've hung out.
1:11:55
[SPEAKER_01]: We've written some things together.
1:11:56
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a delight.
1:11:58
[SPEAKER_01]: We're both parents.
1:11:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I know we have a ton of similar things in our history and even in our lives that are very in common.
1:12:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I see you was a very kindred spirit.
1:12:08
[SPEAKER_01]: How you hold enough these days?
1:12:09
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, look, I hate to always shrug off and be like in spite of the world.
1:12:14
[SPEAKER_03]: But we're all just challenging.
1:12:15
[SPEAKER_03]: We're dealing with so much.
1:12:16
[SPEAKER_03]: I find great hope and help coming, you know, just doing stuff like mutual aid, helping locally, helping your neighbors, being active in your community, those are the things that
1:12:26
[SPEAKER_03]: make me feel productive.
1:12:27
[SPEAKER_03]: There's sometimes there's very little you can do about things on a much larger scale aside from being informed and speaking out.
1:12:34
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's part of the responsibility we have.
1:12:36
[SPEAKER_03]: But I'm okay.
1:12:38
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm trying to stay productive.
1:12:39
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm trying to enjoy my time with my family and my friends as much as I can and you know try to enact change in the ways we can.
1:12:48
[SPEAKER_03]: And you know push back against
1:12:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we've talked about values.
1:12:56
[SPEAKER_01]: We've talked about our dads.
1:12:57
[SPEAKER_01]: We, I'm so inspired by your wife and by your writing and by the community that you've built.
1:13:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad you're in my life, my friend.
1:13:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for being a stellar human.
1:13:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God.
1:13:07
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, everybody.
1:13:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Take care of yourselves.
1:13:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Please, the living joyfully is an act of defiance in this crazy world.
1:13:12
[SPEAKER_01]: We will see you back here.
1:13:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Next week for our next bread school chat, by Alex.