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Selects: The Murder Mystery of Ötzi the Iceman · Stuff You Should Know

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey everyone, it's Josh, your old pal, and for this
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: week's select I've chosen our episode on Utsi the Iceman,
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: from November of twenty nineteen. Utsi was discovered high in
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: the Alps by hikers in nineteen ninety one, and since
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: then he has become perhaps the world's most closely studied corpse.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: He's not only fascinating because of the information he's brought
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: us about everyday life in the copper Age, where he
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: hails from. He's also fascinating because of what he demonstrates
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: researchers are able to do in the present today. They've
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: gone so far as to recreate his last couple of
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: days on Earth. That's how MAC researchers are today. Hope
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: you enjoy this episode because it's a great one.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. There's Chuck,
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: and there's guest producer Josh over there, which makes us
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: if you should know all and.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: Guest uh ghost host Chuck?
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Are you a ghost now? Did you die? Now?
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: I just thought if there was two josh is in here,
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: I feel a little left out.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Oh I see and ganged up on.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just I had no clever way to say it.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Ghost host, You're right about that.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: My mouth is working today, my brain.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: That's all right. It's been a long week already. It's
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: only Tuesday, really right? Yeah?
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: Is it just me?
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: No, it's been a long week.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: I mean today's like I know, I don't want to complain.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: Never mind, everything's great. Hey, let me ask you something.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: Does otsy have an um loud or not?
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Yes, it's it'sy okay, rhymes with tutsy. I saw someone
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: put it. I think are good friends at Smithsonian Magazine.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's ittsy. There's a bit of an R in there.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I like ittsy all right, like Tutsy Rollsy the
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Dead Mummy. It'sy.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: This is a good one. This is exciting. I've been
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: wanting to do one on this one too.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: I had too. But in what spurned? Spurned or spurn
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: is where you say get away and spurs like go ahead, okay, nice,
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah that makes sense because you're using your spurs spurred.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: Sure, I'm sure that's where that comes from.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Surely. Okay, Wow, Chuck just blew my mind? Uh what
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: spurred this was there? Let's see you made some news
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: recently because they managed to trace his last like day
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: and a half.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, really like in the past few days even.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and about fifty three hundred years ago. He had
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: the same thoughts that we had when we started this podcast.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: He's like, it's only Tuesday, and this has been a
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: long week already, a long, deadly, bloody week.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I've been interested in this since I saw the
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: facial reconstruction photos. I was like, or's he was Jack Palance?
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: Chris Christophferson?
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: Is that?
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: Oh?
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: Okay, dude, A little bit of both.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: No, it's like they said, mister Christophferson, please come in
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: so we can.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: Well, now that I think about it, Christofferson and Jack
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: Palance are have some similarities. If you put a beard
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: on Jack Palance, yeah, sure, squinty eyes, yeah, I guess,
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: soundish face, Yeah, I guess I could see both. Christofferson, Man,
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: what a legend.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: Remember, Yeah, look there's Chris Christofferson kidding, that's it'sy.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's me and Bobby McGee right there.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Exactly Did you see that Ken Burns documentary?
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: No? I didn't, not yet, you haven't yet. Still No,
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: I went to buy it the other day and I
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: just have not yet.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: So good.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: You got to buy that stuff, right, yeah, all right.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: I just didn't know if there was a work around.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: And you're like, oh, no, dude, here's what you do.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'll buy it. It's like sixty bucks.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: Oh wow, PBS gives it away for free.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: What do you got some PBS connection?
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: No, it was on PBS for a while.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: Oh do you have cable or something? See, I don't
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: have I don't.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Even think you have to have cable. Oh you mean
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: like like you just stream? Yes, you're you're up the creek.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I thought you meant no, you don't have to
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: have cable to get PBS. You just like they help
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: people in the world and exactly just beams under your eyelids.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: You know what I was thinking. You have to stand
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: there and hold like a coat hanger a certain way
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: and your TV in the other hand. Oh, sure you
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: can get PBS.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna buy it. Though it looks great.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: Why not? It is good, and I would say I
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: would say it's worth roughly sixty dollars. It's pretty good.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: But anyway, Chris Christopherson figures Big into one of the episodes, like.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: It's not worth more than forty five, but go ahead
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: and pay.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: That right because it goes to Kim Burn's hairdresser.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: That's right, And that's quite a collection of brushes that
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: that person has to maintain.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: But Chris Christophferson is interviewed like today, Oh interesting, he
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: looks exactly like let's see now.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: Well, I'll try to get him on movie Crush because
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: he played the City Winery, which is like attached store
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: building basically, So I will try and get people from
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: over there on the basis of like are you gotta
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: do is walk over the across the parking lot?
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: His manager emailed me back and said, and this should
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: hearten you as well, said I'm actually at stuff. You
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: should know. Fan nice the manager and said, but you
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: know what, he doesn't really do interviews anymore. So maybe
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: I just got the easy the easy pass, right, But man,
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: I really wanted that one to come through to dude
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: in this office. It would have been pretty special. Yeah,
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: but I'm no ken Burns. No, who is ken Burns?
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah? That's true.
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: All right, let's talk. Should we take a break.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: Let's go back chuck a little bit, let's get in
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: the way back machine. It's been a little while. Okay,
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: we're going to go back, and we even know exactly
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: what we're going back to. One thirty PM on September nineteenth,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: Whoa ninety one. I'm in college. It's a salad days.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: I'm wearing a Flavor Flave clock around my neck.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: Nice. I was a sophomore in high school. Yeah, that's
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: all I have to say about that.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: I never wore the flavor of flaveclock. But he kind
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: to let that be. Well I should have. I was
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: not cool enough, but I was listening to Apocalypse ninety one.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: No, I'm saying, you shouldn't have admitted that you didn't work.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: Now, I know, okay, but no one believe that. You know,
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: I'm not that cool, you know.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: Aaron Cooper made a pretty awesome one of my favorite
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: ones of all time was US as Public Enemy, and
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: I think I'm flavor flavor in it. But you look
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: like Chuck D. And Chuck D. It's a cool. It's
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: a cool photoshop of us.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: I tried to get Chuck D on movie Crushed Too.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: Did he play the City Winery?
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: No? But he lives in Atlanta.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: Oh, I didn't know that.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: And at least part time.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: Boy did he say?
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: He didn't say anything because the management company out emailed
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: said we don't manage him anymore. So it was just
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: a dead end.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: I gotcha.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: But Chuck d if you're listening upon City Market, let's come,
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: let's talk about your favorite movie.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: Right, and also shout out to Chris Christophferson's manager.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: That's right, of course.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: All right, boy, we're gonna have to go back and
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: edit all this out. Now.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: It's one thirty pm it September nineteenth, nineteen ninety one,
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: and we are hiking with Erica and Helmut Simon. They're German,
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: but we are hiking in the oats all Alps in Italy.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: Yes, between Italy and Austria, like right on the border,
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: very close to the border, and on this peak. The
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: Simons decided that as they were descending that they would
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: take a short cut. And the shortcut took them through
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: this past pastor crevass, and in this little shallow crevass,
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: they said, oh, there's a there's a dead body, there's
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: a corpse.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: And you were like what I was, because we are
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: there too, right yeah, And I said.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: It's right on time, boy, right exactly, yeah, that's great.
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: So the thing is is they could they could see
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: it was a cadaver, Like they could see the corpses back,
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: back of the head, arm hanging out, and they just thought, well,
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: we heard that there was a hiker that was recently killed,
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: and that's probably who that is. We'll take a couple
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: of pictures and go down and tell somebody who owns
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: like the nearest line.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: Right, and on the way down, you and I are
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: going like, that was not a hiker that was recently killed.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: No, even I knew that, Like, did you see that guy?
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: He was super old.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: He was a mummy. The Simons are crazy.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: And the Simons were not crazy, but I'm sure they
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: were saying the same thing. They were just out of
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: your shot.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: Right, So they they some people went up and I
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: think within a day or two they went up to
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: try to get this dead hiker who they thought was
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: a dead hiker out and they did a terrible job
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: with it. Yeah, they used ski poles to chip away
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: at the ice. They used an ice hammer to chip
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: away at the ice, damaged the body. But they think, oh,
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: it's just like some hiker or whatever. It will be fine.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: Put him in a wooden casket.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: And this article makes it sound like he like the
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: whole world or everybody who knew about this body just
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: thought it was a modern hiker for you know, a while,
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: until the body came down the mountain. That's not a case.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: One of the things that when they were getting this
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: body out the accidentally excavated was a copper headed axe,
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: and word got out that there was an axe with
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: this body, and that is really weird. And it was
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: copper copper with like a wooden shaft and everything was
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: clearly a very very very old axe. And so pretty
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: quickly they realized that they were onto something.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: Here for sure. And what they found out was this
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: body hi frozen body.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: One of my favorite Simpsons lines ever, five thousand years old.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: That's the same like same little bit as when.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: He goes moon Pie had time to be Abe. That
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: was Abe's buddy. What's his name?
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: Oh? Man, it'll come to me later, I'll say it.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: People are screaming out there. I canture beer fill cos
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: right now.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: Oh what is it?
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: I want to say, like Chauncey or Chalmers? Is not
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: that something very similar to that? Honestly? Look it up.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: Okay, all right, I'm going to keep going. Okay, So
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: they get this body out and removed it on September
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: twenty third, ninety one, sealed it up, like you said,
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: flew it out of town in a wooden coffin to Ennsbrook,
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: the Institute of Forensic Medicine, And there was an archaeologist
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: named Conrad Spindla there who said, this body's at least
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: four thousand years old, at the very least.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: What's abes friends name, Jasper Beery Lasper?
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. So they nicknamed them Utsy because of
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: the region of the oats, all Alps. Very cute little
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: name it is.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: Other people call him frozen Fritz. Oh really yeah, I
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: like it's the way more.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Ootsy's nice. Yeah.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: So in pretty short order they realized that what they
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: had just excavated in the roughest possible manner and accidentally
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: come upon was the corpse of a fifty three hundred
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: year old old body.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: Yes, And when I said the guy said it was
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: four thousand years old, he said that was the initial,
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: like he's at least this.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: Old, right, Yeah, But it turns out that after further study,
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: they figured out he was actually fifty three hundred years old. Right,
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: and that he lived in the Copper Age, which was
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: a relatively brief period in human history, but a really
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: important one between the Neolithic Age at the end of
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: the Neolithic Age when the first farmers started to appear,
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: and the Bronze Age, when the first what we consider
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: society and civilization in history began. Right, And we know
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: very little about this, and what these hikers had discovered
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: was a snapshot of life during that time because Leutze
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: appeared to have just died fell where he died.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: Or died where he fell.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was almost there, and leaving his belongings with him,
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: and it wasn't He wasn't like a great revered figure.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: He wasn't buried, he wasn't prepared. He was intact for
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: fifty three hundred years on this glacier.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was the biggest deal because they have mummies,
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: and they have older mummies, but like you said, it's
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: their organs are removed. They're filled with you know, embalming
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: chemicals and things they used at the time for preservation
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: for the afterlife and all this. So this was a
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: really big deal to find this body just really really
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: scarily well preserved. And when we say well preserved. It
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: doesn't look like Chris Christofferson, but not anymore. The organs
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: were there and like, didn't the red blood cells have
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: stiff inside.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: Still intact. Yeah, it's the oldest intact blood sample ever taken.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: Outsi's was so and the fact that he wasn't buried
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: provides a snapshot. It wasn't ritualized. It was this guy
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: was just living his life and he died and happened
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: to be preserved perfectly. See, his belongings were preserved along
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: with them, and things that are organic can typically typically
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: decay long before fifty three hundred years comes and goes.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: So his clothing made of like different types of leather
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: was preserved. His his coat or cape made of woven
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: grasses was preserved.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: It was all really cool when you look at the
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: shoes and the bear skin hat and right, it's very cool.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: Bear skin hat was another one. His toolkit was preserved.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: All of the stuff that we had like like just
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: kind of little hints and traces and glimpses of from
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: different like burial caches or just happened to find some
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: artifact or whatever. This was like a straight up polaroid
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: picture of life in the Coppers.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was almost like someone stumbled upon a Museum
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: of Natural History display, but it was real, right, you.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: Know, well put chuck. You know who would have loved
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: that analogy? Chris Christopher's.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: It's not going to say either Jasper or Artsy.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: And I don't mean would have in the fact that
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: he's dead, I mean would have had he heard it.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: I agree, he's never going to hear this.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: You never know.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: I'm like using reverse they call his manager right now.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: Well you might as well. Willie Nelson will never listen
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: to these either, neither World Dolly Parton. Yeah, we want
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: all the country legends listening.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: Ronnie millsapp will never hear this, excuse said with this, sure, okay,
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: not with us though, because he doesn't listen to stuff,
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: you should know it never will.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: So apparently where see actually fell was pretty lucky because
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: it was in a very shallow crevass, and the fact
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: that that was kind of walled up on both sides
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: of him kept him. If he was just out in
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: the open, the freeze thought cycle over the years would
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: have washed everything away and ripped him apart. And it
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: didn't happen because he kind of fell in this crevass,
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: all five to two one hundred and thirty four pounds
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: of him.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which is one hundred and fifty eight centimeters and
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: sixty one kilograms.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: That's right. He had brown eyes. Apparently at five to
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: two was even a little short for the time. But
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: he was RiPP Yeah. He was pretty sturdy, you know,
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: in his mid forties, like we said, and really strong legs.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: And you know, kind of the fun thing about this
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: is the archaeological forensics of trying to piece together like
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: what was he doing, how did he die? We'll get
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: to all that, but just the fact that, like he
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: had big legs. They were like this guy, he's probably
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: goat hurt her. He's walking up and down these mountains
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: all the time, right, look at those calves.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he looked like that guy from that one Liberty
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: Mutual commercial. I don't know what you mean, It doesn't matter.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Like ten people just laughed.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: What else did he had? He had a dagger, He
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: had that axe you were talking about. The dagger, had
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: a wicker sheath. He had a backpack. He had a
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: leather pouch.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The backpack, by the way, we'll never know how
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: it worked because it got destroyed by the people who
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: went and really dug him out of the ice.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: He had some rudimentary snow shoes. He had a belt
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: he had in a belt that matched his cape, right, yeah,
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: oh man, and we'll talk about that. But apparently they
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: think that was on purpose.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: Yes, that he was a bit of a fashionista. Yeah.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: He had a couple of like vessels that were lined
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: with maple leaves that he used to carry embers from
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: place to place so he wouldn't have to start a
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: fire again. And all this stuff. You're like, I'm cool,
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: a flint dagger, cool copper acts. Oh, some members I
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: think it's all cool. Yeah I do too. Yeah, but
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: I can see people out there being like, uh, talk
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: about math or something. Right. The thing is is like
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: all the stuff that seems kind of boring and superficial
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: has been so thoroughly studied that it's actually been used
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: to paint a larger picture. Like we understand the copper
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: age in Europe way better than we did before he
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: was discovered, just from finding this. The few things that
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: he died with, yeah, and him himself.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: He also interestingly had sixty one tattoos all over his body.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: Chuck, I've been waiting for this day. What you said
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: tattoos correctly?
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: Oh you mean the tattoos.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: I mean I shouldn't say anything.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, and they were. They covered them from head
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: to toe in different parts, and they didn't use needles
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: back then obviously, but they would rub or cut the
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: skin open and then rub charcoal inside. And they're all
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: They mapped them out in twenty fifteen and organized them
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: into nineteen groups, and they are basically, you know, like
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: maybe three identical lines, short lines like an inch long,
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: or like a cross, not a spiritual religious cross, but
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: Like a plus sign, yeah, or like a Chinese character
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: that has some inspirational association, right, perseverance or something.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: You get a lower back tattoo of a thorny branch.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: But yeah, they mapped these all out and for a
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: while they thought, and some people still think, because they
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: were largely found around the joints and along his back
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: and he had problems, and they he basically was marked
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: up where he hurt. It looks like, right, and they
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: thought it might have been either acup puncture points to
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: mark or it might have been the acupuncture treatment itself.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Right, But they do think that it had something to
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: do with acupuncture, which in and of itself was a
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: big revelation because they thought up to that point that
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: acupuncture had been invented two thousand years after Utzy and
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: way further east in Asia.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: Right, But now they think that may not have been
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: the case because they found a new cluster of tattoos
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: on his chest that they didn't formally recognize, and they
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: were like, there are no acupuncture points there, and he
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: didn't have any injuries there. So now they didn't throw
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: it out with the bathwater. But there are people now
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: they're saying like, we don't know if that's true or not.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: No, Okay, So I'm really glad you said that. Everything
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: that we know about Utzi, aside from the fact that
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: he is dead, yeah, that we have a pretty good
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: idea of when he lived, probably what heightweight was, stuff
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: like that. Everything else is interpretation.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: Sure, so you.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: Have to remember that interpretation super educated and usually displaying
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: the current understanding of history or interpretation of history or events,
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: but it is still interpretation. That's part of archaeology, anthropology,
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: and history, especially when you're talking about prehistory. Is he
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: lived during a time before anybody wrote anything down or
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: recorded anything, which makes it prehistoric. But you just bear
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: that in mind that everything we're talking about and everything
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: you go read about Otsie is very much described in
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: absolute terms, but it is our picture and image of him.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: How he lived, how he died has really shaped and
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: shifted over the years since he was discovered, and it
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: still is. It's still malleable. Nothing is definitive, nothing said
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: in nice.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: All right, let's take a break. It's a bad joke.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: We'll talk about uh Ertsy's health, right for this. Was
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: he healthy?
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: I mean he was.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: No, he was a person of age in his mid
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: forties of a time where at that age he's going
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: to be pretty beat up.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he wasn't unhealthy in like the modern sense where
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: he's like deliberately wrecking his health because he's eating too
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: much junk food or something like you know me. Yeah,
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: but he was unhealthy in the way that a person
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: would be unhealthy from living close to the land at
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: a time before medicine had really developed.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, no doctors, no dentists. So as you would imagine,
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: he had gum disease, heart disease, lime disease, gall bladderstone,
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: hardened arteries, gallstones.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the disorder is so nice. We named it twice.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: Right, he had a whipworm parasite in his gut, He
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: had h pylori in his gut, and all of this
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: is to say, like you said, he was probably a
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: pretty normal dude of the mid forties of the time.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: They couldn't find his stomach for a long time. It's
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: amazing how much of the stuff like it was found
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: over the years, Like this tattoo. This new tattoo was
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: just found a few years ago. Yeah, after like many
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: many years of study.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: His birthmark that looks like Abraham Lincoln eluded people for decades.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: But they couldn't even find his stomach and then finally
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: they're like, oh, here it is. Twenty years later, they
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: found it wedged up between his ribs and his lungs.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, then they found it because they noticed he had gallstones,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: so they basically traced a path from the gallbladder to
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: the stomach and said, there it is. We found it.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: And they were really happy they found it because when
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: they started to dissect did or take samples from it,
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: they found that it was full. Yeah, he died like
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: within an hour or so of eating his last meal
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: and hadn't digested it. He had food in his in
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: his colon, he had food in his intestines.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: He had a turtle head peeking out right, that's awesome.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: What his last meal was dried ibex and deer meat
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: with ink horn wheat.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: Yes, and slow plums. I don't know why that wasn't mentioned.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: He can get that same meal in Brooklyn.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: Served you by a guy with a waxed mustache and
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: like some sort of armband, an arm garter. So yeah,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: an arm garter. That's it. That's it, isn't it.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: So he ate they think some sort of like fatty
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: cured meat, kind of like a bacon, a cured bacon today.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: And the iron ike horn wheat was from bread. And
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: he also ate slow plums, gotcha? Okay?
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Slow plums?
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that they make slow gin from? Oh really, which
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: I've never had, have you?
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: That's sloe right?
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah right, It's like supposedly a very tart, kind of
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: bitterish plum, but it was it's like load of vitamins.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: I've never had it. And remember it seemed like an
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: old person. Drink was a slow jin fizz.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: Like an old person who's like one hundred and fifty
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: years old.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: Yes, when I lived in Arizona, there were all the
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: snowbirds were down there. They drink like slowjin fizzs.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: Really, I've never been present when somebody ordered a slow
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: gin fizz. Yeah, I would like to try one. So
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: sure I try one. Okay, Josh, go.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: Get a couple of slow gin phizzies.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: Stat make it a double.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: I guarantee you there's a bar in this dumb building
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: that has slow jin pzzis on the venue.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: Sure you know with arm guards? Can I keep the
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: arm guard comes with a drink.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit more about the copper Age.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: I guess he had. Well, what we'll save his injuries
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: for a minute here, Okay, we'll talk about a little
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: about his lifestyle in the copper Age. Like you said,
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: he was, as demonstrated by his meals, he looked a
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: pretty like farmy pleasant life down there, it seems like,
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: but not one without conflict, you know.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: Sure, based on his meals, well.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: Based on his meals, he lived a farming type lifestyle.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: But based on injuries we're going to talk about it
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: seems like that, you know, he had some enemies.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: So from what I saw, and I mean, we used
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: a lot of different articles, but National Geographic is very
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: well represented in here Live Sciencehistory dot com, the BBC.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: I came across something from the Penn Pennsylvania, the Penn
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: Museum or U Penn Museum. I think they have a
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: magazine called Expedition that was pretty awesome, had a pretty
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: great thing. And I saw a couple of things from
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: historians that wrote up basically descriptions of Utsy and thought
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: co which is just a surprising great resource.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, have you ever noticed, yes, yep.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: So in one of these I saw that it was
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: kind of put like he lived as a farmer and
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: enjoyed like the fruits of village life too, so things
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: like cheese and processed grains and cereals, so bread and
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: stuff like that. And the idea is that he didn't
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: know how to bake bread or make cheese. He was
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: part of a village or a society where somebody knew
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: how to bake bread and somebody knew how to make cheese,
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: so the professions were starting to emerge. But that he
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: also was pastoral and that like he herded sheep and
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: that's probably what he did most of it most of
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: the time. And then he also lived very close to
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: the earth the land as well, Like his last meal
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: was wild game ibecs and deer and slow plums that
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: he probably plucked himself. So he was kind of like
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: this transitional human from the hunter gather are passed into
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: the agrarian, agriculture based future that spread out just ahead
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: of them.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like just ahead of them were like real deal
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: Italians out there. Yeah, bacon bagets.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's French.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what I mean Italian bread?
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, in Italy they just call him bread.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: That's right. They I mentioned earlier that his clothes matched
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: and they do think, and of course again this is
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: all speculation, but these garments were pretty refined, even when
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: you look at him now, like he had these fur
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: skin leggings that were held up by suspenders.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: By Alexander McQueen.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: Oh man, I wouldn't say that.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: I know. That was amazing, so good.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: And a great documentary on him too. It's good and sad.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: The they talk about the color of the animal skin zone,
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: the contrasting colors they think were actually matched like elaborately,
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: and he had, like, like you said, a sense of style,
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: like you know, is that possible? Yeah, but I mean
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: it seems like a lot to extrapolate that his coat
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: and his belt matched, and so they were like, hey,
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: he had a real personal identity, whereas in it could
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: have been just like that's the materials that he had
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: on hand that fit.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: That's possible. But I think what they're what they would
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: assert is that it has enough panache. Yeah, that the
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: chances of it just being random are very unlikely or
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: less likely than it being you know, asserting his sense
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: of fashion.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: Well, and he was Italian, that's right, So you know
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: Italians in their fashion go hand in hand.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: I love it. Everyone who's been to Millino knows that,
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: or fearensy.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: I remember when I was touring Europe as a youth,
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: my friend and I laughing at the Italian guys and
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: the hostels were like, these nineteen year old dudes were
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: so put together and like would spend so much time
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: in the mirror, wearing the cologne and getting their hair
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: just perfect. Yeah, we are just disgusting humans. Sure, and
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: they got the girls, so yeah, it turns out that
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: they were onto something.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: A little bit of extraff really does it and the
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: big hair.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they were great guys. So we met some cool
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: Italian dudes.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: One of the other things too, though, that the fact
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: that he clearly was involved in a village. They think
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: that he was associated with a particular village to the
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: south in a valley near the mountains. It was things
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: like bread and cheese that they think they found in
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: his body. But also the fact that he did not
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: He obviously didn't know how to make his own tools.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: Somebody else had. He probably did not know how to
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: weave the cape he was wearing. Somebody else had done that.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they all had their specialties. Yeah.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: The tattoos, he couldn't have put some of them on
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: his own body. He probably went to see a medical
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: practitioner to do that. So, yeah, this is at a
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: point when specialists and specialized professians are starting to emerge.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really cool time.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is these are the things that we've
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: learned from, you know, that we've gleaned from the stuff
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: that we found with him. I think it's just astoundingly fascinating.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really cool. This is a really interesting period
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: I think of human development.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: It's also called, by the way, the copper age or
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: the chalcolithic I like copper age. I do too, Chalcolithic
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: just kind of coughs out of the mouth, isn't it.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So we'll talk a little bit about what might
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: have happened to Utsy and how he found himself dead
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: on that mountain, because there are quite a few theories
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: over the years, and like you said, even this week
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: they have some more leads. But he was wounded. He
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: had a really bad wound on his right hand. They
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: found out he was right handed too, so this is
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: a big deal between his thumb and his forefinger there.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: That area went all the way down to the bone.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: But it looks like it had healed up a little bit,
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: so it probably happened, they said, within a few days
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: when he died, but it was healing. But it was
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: a big injury, like we said, because he was right handed,
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: But it's not the kind of thing that killed him,
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: Like he didn't bleed out from that or anything like that.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: No, huh. So it makes you think, well, what did
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: kill him then?
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: Right, Well, they think that might have been from a fight.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: Perhaps that wound.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: That has been almost universally agreed upon from the outset
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: right that he probably didn't inflict that wound himself. That
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: it seems to have been a defensive wound. There's a
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: guy named Alexander Horn who's an inspector with the Munich Police,
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: and so we should give just a little background for
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: a second. When Utsi was found, he was taken into
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: Germany down the mountain into Austria Innsbruck. Austria and the
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: Germans were heavily involved as well as the Austrians and
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: the Italians were less involved, and that's where he kind
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: of stayed for the first few years, I think about
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: a decade or less after he was discovered. And then
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: eventually he was transferred to Italy, the Italian side.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because they were like, he's a founder on our side. Yeah,
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: like it just to barely I think.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: Also, I don't know if this contributed to her if
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: it came later, but he does seem to have been
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: linked to the Italian side, where like you said, he
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: was an Italian, right, So he was transferred to Italy
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: and when they took custody of him, man they pulled
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: out all the stops. They put him up in Balzano, Italy,
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: near about I think like thirty miles or something from
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: where he was found. They built a museum specifically for him,
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: an institute built around studying him, and they proceeded to
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: study him more than any other mummy has ever been studied,
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: probably any other body than has ever been studied in
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: the history of the world. Yeah, for sure, and have
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: just churned out paper after paper after paper based on
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: their findings from him. So but at first, some of
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: the ideas that we have about what happened to him
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: come from the earliest interpretations posed by the Germans in
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: the Austrians when they had custody of Vizzi.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: Right, which weren't necessarily right, as it turns out, no, but.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: Some may have been. But my ultimate point was everybody
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: says from the outset that he wound the wound in
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: his hand was a defensive wound that came from close
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: combat with somebody else.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: That's right. For a while they thought there was an
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: Austrian archaeologist named Conrad Spindler that I mentioned earlier that
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: they sort of recreated the scene, and their contention early
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: on was like man that acts is leaning up against
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: the rock, it's propped up there, like we think everything
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: is literally frozen in time from how it was. And
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: I think that's one of the things that they've later refuted, right,
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: and they said that it looks like things might have
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: moved around some.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they think that the what would you call it,
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: the site I guess from the freeze thaw cycle just
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: kind of distributed, redistributed the stuff.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which you know, it's still all valid, but not
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: necessarily it was not necessarily exactly as it was at
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: his moment of death. Indeed, they did find his hat though,
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: off of his head, as if it just like kind
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: of fell off of his head, which might have been true.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: Right. So some of those early stuff, they also found
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: what they thought were fractured ribs that had not healed. Right,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: So the earliest picture was this like they treated it
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: like this is a dead body mystery. Where did this
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: dead body come from? How did he die?
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Well quickly though, they also found pollen in his
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: gut that they thought came from an autumn plant, so
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: they were like, he died in the fall, right, Okay,
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: so that's the full setup of the bad information.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: So the first idea, and I think it was Spindler
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: who came up with the disaster theory, was I think
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: so Conrad Spindler said, Okay, here's what happened to outsy
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: he came down from the mountain, probably hurting some sheep
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: or goats in the fall, went down to his village
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: and gotten an altercation with somebody, cut his hand.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: You're looking at my wife, right, that kind of thing.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: That's nice, and he fled or oh, and part of
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: the altercation also resulted in some cracked ribs, right, and
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: either fled or laughter escaped up the mountain again where
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: he became exhausted from his cracked ribs and his cut hand,
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: and he laid down or fell into this little shallow
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: crevasse and died of exposure to hypothermia. That was the
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: disaster theory, and that was that, you know, I mean
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: they had that for a few years, and somebody came
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: along and said, I don't think that's right.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: That's right, because they found out some of the things,
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: like the site had melted some and then things were
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: in different positions they originally thought. Probably they examined the
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: ribs again and said they were actually not fractured before
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: he died.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that they were just a little bent.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, from like after his death.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: Probably from the push of ice, the pressure from ice
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: feezing on him.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: Again exactly'll that'll crack your ribs in a second, or
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: binga ribs.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: The big one, though, was what they found in the
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: X ray in two thousand and one.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: Right, you know what they found? Should we take a break?
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, all right, we'll discover what they found right
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: after this.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: Where did they find Chuck?
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: They found a freaking arrowhead lodged in his shoulder, back shoulder.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: That was a verbatim quote from the press conference. This
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: was a big deal.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: They missed it for ten years, they missed the thing,
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: and they found it. Yeah, it was just a regular
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: X ray and they said, wait a minute, that looks
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: denser than bone. Yeah, what is that.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: It's a triangle.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: It's a triangle. And it was a thirteen millimeter gash
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: along a major artery in his chest. And they're like,
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: he bled to death up there.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they said, there's no way he would have survived this.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: It is unhealed. This is finally what killed him. So
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: this disaster theory that he got in an altercation but
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: ultimately died of exposure or hypothermia was replaced by the
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: murder theory, right, which is very similar, but there's some
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: important nuances and differences. One, so the cracked rib thing
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: just throw that away. It was a red herring, but
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: the altercation is still the same. He comes down the mountain,
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: he gets in a fight of some sort, goes back
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: up the mountain with his cut hand, and while he's
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: hanging out, maybe tending to his wound, maybe trying to
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: figure out what to do next. That's my arrow impression.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: Message for you, sir.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, right in the back, in the back from
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: a distance, they think due to the penetration from the
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: arrowhead from about thirty meters.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's good shot.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: Ye, that is it is a good shot because it
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: was a kill shot from thirty meters one hundred and
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: fifty feet. That's a waste. Yeah, I can't quite put
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: it into an easy analogy, but that's a long that's
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: a long way. Yeah. And the fact that it was
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: in the back. He never saw it coming and it
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: would have killed him pretty quickly.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: It was a punk move, is what it was. It was.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: Here's the thing, because his possessions were left intact and
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: because he had that defensive wound.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they think that this was.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: The result of his death, as murder was the result
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: of a personal conflict. There was no theft involved or
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: anything like that, right, because his copper axe alone would
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: have been pretty valuable at the time that somebody would
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: have taken it had they killed him for something like robbery.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so this was a vendetta, yes, or it released
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: a personal fight that happened that day, yeah, or maybe
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: a long standing feud. There's no way to tell.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: Here. We reached the point where the historians and the
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: archaeologists are like, we really can't say, but here are
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: some ideas.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: For me, it's either the person who he fought came
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: back for revenge. I think, and this is a total guest,
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: but I was trained in history, so I'm allowed to
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: do that.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: Sure he was trained in history.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. I studied history in college. That's what
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: they call it. They're like, this is how you do it,
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: trained history camp. Right. He was successful in that hand
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: to hand combat and killed the other person. Whether it
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: was offensive or defensive. I like to think it was defensive.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: He didn't have a choice. But the person's family came
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: back and killed him up on the mountain, gotcha. That's
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: the current idea. Well, not that last part that it
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: was his family, but what I said leading up to that,
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: everything about that, everything else about that I'm really sorry,
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: Chris Christofferson. That's the current idea of what happened to it.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: I think. So you're not going with my jealous lover theory.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: No, okay, no, I'm not all right.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: I think it was a woman with that arrow.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: You think the woman a woman shot him?
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, jealous lover. I think he was stepping out and
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: he was like holding up his hands like baby, baby,
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: it wouldn't me. And she slices them with the her
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: implement of choice and then dice ism with the era
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: and then he's like, this is getting too serious. You're crazy,
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: and so he heads up the mountains and she's like,
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: I'll show you crazy. She turns into close, she goes
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: and forges an arrow, and then in that time it
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: took her to forge that arrow from hardened molten you know, flint.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: Flint shirt chirt.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: He's up that hill a little bit and she's like,
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: no problem, watch this right in the back.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: I like that one too, all right. I'm going with family, family,
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: because I mean, yeah, you know the rule, can't trust family,
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: trust family.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: So, speaking of that chirt, he did not have he
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: didn't have blanks.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is evidence that he didn't know how
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: to create his own tools.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, somebody applicate these tools, which apparently were sort of
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: on their last legs.
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was another thing too, So he did not
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: have what he needed. Like imagine if you had if
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: you had like a a tool an X no, a knife, okay,
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: and it's made a flint and you use it over
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: and over and over again, it's gonna get worn down
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: and eventually it's gonna get so worn down that you
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: just can't use it anymore. This is essentially the state
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: of his arrowheads and his knife and some of his
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: other his stone tools. In particular, that he was not
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: in a position to defend himself with his own tools
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: because he'd used them up.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: And I wonder if if he's not making these in
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: the village, if they're like Ertsy's, you know, he's have
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: you guys noticed he's on the way out, Like, we're
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: not going to be making any more tools for Artsy, right, yeah,
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: I can. We don't have He'll just make do with
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: what he's got.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: It's a but he owes me money.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: So should we talk about moss. This was astounding to
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: me that this happened in the last few days, because
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: did you pick this out before this happened, or was
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: it serenigity?
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: This is what I saw that it made me say
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: it's time.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: Okay, I got you. So researchers found these moth spores
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: that were inside of him, that he'd ingested, and just
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: on him and around him. M hm. Seventy percent of
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: the seventy five species of these mosses and liverwarts were
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: not local. And they basically said, there's no way these
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: would have been on the side of the mountain if
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: not for him.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: Right like a bird couldn't have transported it this far
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: or something like that, like the UTSI brought these up here.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: And so in doing that and tracing like these mosses
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: and spores and everything, they have a big clue. They've
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: been able to retrace his steps that last basically thirty
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: three hours of his life, the last day and a half,
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: and it was not a great day and a half
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: for him. He had his hand wound. By now, by
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: the time we're coming in here, he's already got his
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: hand wound. It's got to be smarting. And it's a
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: real problem for him too, because even if he could
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: make tools, he would have been really troubled to do
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: anything because he was right handed and that's where his wound,
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: almost down to the bone was was in his right hand. Yeah,
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: so that's a big problem for him right there.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So what they found in this lower colon, which
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: would have been the last I'm sorry, the oldest stuff
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: that he had eaten that has not yet been the
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: turtle head yet, not turtle headed yet or I guess
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: currently turtle headed. Yeah, were pine and spruce pollen, so
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: they said, And it's kind of neat. That's what I
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: love about this, like historical forensics, like, oh, well, we
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: know what was in his body, and we know where
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: that stuff is. It's not at certain altitudes. It was
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: a high altitude for us, around eighty two hundred feet
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: and they know because of where it was in his body.
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: This is thirty three hours before he died. But the
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: middle tract of his colon, that's where all the secrets are.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: In the colon. Yeah, you know, it had pollen from
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: hop hornbeam and that's stuff from lower altitudes.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: It's from lower altitude. But also it grows only in
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: the spring and summer. It decays very quickly, so it's
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: not something that you would preserve and keep for the
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: fall or the winter.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: Throw out the autumn theory.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: Yep, So they say he definitely died in the summer,
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: right and spring.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: I guess that means that he probably descended maybe all
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: the way to the bottom of the valley within twelve hours,
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: maybe nine to twelve hours of his death, and then
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: all the way back up again.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: Right where he was found dead. And they figured all
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: this out. They retraced all this just from those spores
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: and mosses.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: Amazing, they think.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: Maybe so he's down in the valley to begin with,
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: or in the village, gets that hand wound, flees up
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: to the tree line, and then they think.
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: Because he's like the little lady always needs a few
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: days to cool off.
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: Right, Oh man, you're gonna get some meal for that one.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: I rechecked my right by the way. So and then
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: he goes back down, they think, to get some mosses
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: because they have anti bacterial properties.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you can also wrap meat in it, right apparently.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: To I guess, keep it or whatever. But also they
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: may he may have wrapped his hand in it or
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: something as well.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: Or maybe when he saw a doctor.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: Maybe then he goes back up to the tree to
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: above the tree line where he dies at about ten
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: five hundred feet. That's along the way he had that
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: last meal of ibis and deer and bread and slow plums.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Pretty good meal, not bad.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: I wonder if he was panicked, if he knew like,
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: I'm in a bad way because of this cut on
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: my hand, and my tools and arrow heads are not
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: in good shape.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know, because it's interesting you only know that
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: stuff from seeing it at that point in history, Like
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: it would have been like, boy, I've seen that kind
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: of wound before on oh yeah, tuck, tuck, And yeah,
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: he did not last long.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: But if you've thought somebody was coming after you, and
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: you knew that your arrowhead was useless and your knife
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: was like dull and your your stab in hand was
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: cut to the bone, right, you probably wouldn't have had
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: to have seen that before to be.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: Like, uh probably so well, he was in full retreat
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: from what it looks like, right, Yeah, I mean that's
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: why he was going up.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: That Mountain's that's what most people guess.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so he was probably scared.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which is sad, but that's how he spent this
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: last day and a half kind of on the run
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: up and down the mountain, which is pretty impressive that
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: he was able to make. You know, he went up
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: and down the mountain, don't for sure. He was wearing
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: moccas and stuff with grass.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: And he was old for the time.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: Sure, and he had ginger vitis.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: Kind of a neat thing is they have found they
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: found some weird markers on his male sex chromosomes and
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: they've actually traced some genetic relatives at least nineteen people
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: living today, yeah in Austria or.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: Not married but related to Utsy.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Pretty neat.
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so too. So check. There's another theory
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: that says, hey, you know, your whole murder theory it's bs.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: Maybe the murder part is correct, but he was murdered ritually.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: This isn't a vendette or anything like that. Utsie was buried.
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: Right, They think that this was a ritual burial on
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: top of a mountain, but he you know, it's not
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: the kind of Maybe they just want a group that
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: removed the organs and did that stuff, right.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So the premise of the burial theory, called the
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: social theory, is that he's not a snapshot of everyday life, right,
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: that they didn't that he would have been so heavily
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: laden with all of this stuff because we didn't even
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: say he had a bow and arrow, yeahvert a knife,
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: a hatchet. He was wearing moccasins with grass, and they're
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: kind of like, seriously, that's the best they could do
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: at this time for hiking a mountain. That's the shoes
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: you wore, Like, those aren't mountain hiking shoes at any
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: point in his And the fact that the shaft of
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: the arrow was removed, I think they point to is
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: an example of the idea that he was buried, that
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: he was killed ritually and buried in this.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: Oh so they think the killing was a ritual killing too,
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: a sacrificial killing. Yeah, oh I didn't get that part.
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: And the other thing is they're saying, like this stuff,
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: these fancy Alexander McQueen leggings that he wore that were
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: basically the predecessor of later hosen, that is some pretty
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: nice stuff for a simple like sheep herder? Is it
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: to be wearing? That's this is what the social theory
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: people are saying. Yeah, they're like, we think this guy
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: was actually kind of important and that he was buried
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: here as a sign a symbol, and what they found,
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: or what they point to is that there's stella like
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: monolists that were carved in the Lake copper Age a
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: thousand or two thousand years after Utsi because he was
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: born at the beginning of the Copper Age, that our
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: depictions of somebody dressed a lot like Utzy and they
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: think that these are like heroes and legends, ancestors, and
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: they're saying, this guy's wearing what these people were carving
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: images of a thousand years later. Maybe he was kind
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: of important and maybe this is a bit.
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: He also had some ornamentation too, didn't he Yeah, like
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: a marble bead, Yeah, which you know could mean something
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: or could not.
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: But the fact that he had so much stuff with
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: him does kind of support the idea that maybe it
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: was a burial and then they.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: Just send him into the afterlife with all the things
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: he would need.
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: Right exactly. And then the other one is no one's
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: ever explained how he was so well preserved that apparently
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: being frozen by ice doesn't cut it. Oh really, Yeah,
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: that other people have been found who died far later
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: and were in way worse states of decay than Utsie was.
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: But they found no like chemical preservation, no evidence or anything.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: No, And admittedly sides, if either one of them are
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: being honest, they will say, we don't know how much
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: he was this well preserved quite a mystery still to
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: this day. As much as we know about him, he
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: is still a mystery. He's our love and mystery man.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: If you want to know more about let's see, go
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: type Otzi in your favorite search bar and it will
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: bring up some fascinating stuff. And since I said that,
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: time for listener.
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: Man, I'm gonna call this the accidental iron Man. Hey, guys,
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: big fan for a long time. I accidentally did my
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: first iron Man in July twenty eighteen. And you might think,
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: how in the world would that happen?
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: I was thinking exactly, here's how that happens.
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: I've been doing triathlon since twenty fifteen, always planned on
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: doing an iron Man at one point or at some point.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: My plan was to do a half iron Man in
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, do the full thing in twenty nineteen. I
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: wanted to do the Iron Man like Placid, since it's
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: reasonably close and as a lake swim as opposed to
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: river or in ocean swim. That's a hard race. To
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: get into though, because it sells out so fast. I
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: got an email told me registration was open, and in
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: my excitement I misread it and thought it was for
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: the half, so I signed up and realized after the
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: fact that it was the entire one hundred and forty
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: point six race and not the seventy point three. Triathlons
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: don't do refunds, so I paid my eight hundred dollars
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: plus entry fee and couldn't get it back. I could
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: have deferred for a year, but it's decided just to
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: go for it. And I finished the race in fifteen hours,
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: two minutes and forty three seconds. Nice work, and that
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: is from John Patanyak. And I email John Backen It's like,
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: you want to give me a couple of little tidbits
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: here for listener mail, and he said sure, and he
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: wrote back and he said, one thing I can say
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: is it really takes over your personal life. At my peak,
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: I was training twenty hours a week. And he said
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: that is literally just pool, bike or running. He said,
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: doesn't count travel to and from the gym, cooking meals,
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: prepping equipment. He said, it's literally like a part time job.
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: And he said the race was a lot of fun.
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: He said. The Lake Placid course goes through the old
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: Olympic structures from the nineteen eighty Olympics, and you finish
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: at the finish line and the speed skating oval. Oh,
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: that's nat Yeah, it's pretty cool. He cine picture.
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: It's like urban exploration Iron Range.
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: And he said. One of the cool things they do
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: if your first timer is you wear an orange wristband
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: so all the volunteers and crowd will give you extra
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: support and it says I will become one on it.
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: And he said, it really works. And he said, and
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: finally at the end, the race is so meaningful to
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: so many people. Everyone has their own story. But almost
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: nothing is better after a year of training than hearing
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: you are iron Man. When he crossed the finish line.
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: That's awesome. They have Ozzie singing it. I would I
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: would too.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: Who else I don't know.
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: I guess theo could again.
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: That is John Potoniac. Dio is dead, Oh is he? Yeah,
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: Ronnie James Dio's passed on. When within the last couple
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: of years.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, one of the coolest tattoos I've ever seen.
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: Somebody got like on their arm, their forearm. I have
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: seen that, so that when they make like the devil
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: horns or whatever, it's Ronnie Dio making the devil horns
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: and the person's.
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: Fingers comes your arms. Yeah, it's really neat.
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: I saw that and I thought, man, that's the coolest
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: tattoo I've ever seen.
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: I think it might be. It's pretty Hats off to
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: Chris Christofferson's manager, who actually is the person with that that?
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: That's right?
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: Uh. If you want to get in touch with us,
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: like who is that?
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: John Patoniac?
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: Thanks John? If you want to get in touch with
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: us like John, congratulations too. You can go on to
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know and check out our social links.
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: You can also send us an email to stuff podcast
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.