Latest / Honey Badger Radio / Building Bridges into the Modern Dating Landscape With @ItsComplicatedChannel⁩ | Fireside Chat 261

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Building Bridges into the Modern Dating Landscape With @ItsComplicatedChannel⁩ | Fireside Chat 261 · Honey Badger Radio

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to Honeybager Radio. My name
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: is Brian and this is the Fireside Chat and today
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: I have a very special guest, Jonathan from the It's
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Complicated Channel, which is a one of those man on
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: the Street channels where you've just do street interviews with people. So,
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: first of all, Jonathan, thank you so much for taking
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: a time to come on the show. So first of all,
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: I'm probably misrepresented your channel a little bit. So why
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: don't you tell everybody what the It's Complicated channel is?
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: And yeah, just give him the short version of that.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: Maybe you'll learn one day.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, oh okay, wait, some people are saying they
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: can't hear you.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Hold on a second. It's probably a setting on my end.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: I just have to do something with the ear trumpet.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Could you say a few words. I'm gonna move your
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: the audio to the right place. Yeah, so I see
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: where the problem is.
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: It should be here.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Check check, Okay, yep, it's good now, okay, all right, yeah,
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: it's good.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: Okay, we're good. So again, well let's do that.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Run that back. So what is the It's complicated? Sorry
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: about that, guys. This this thing is paying the butt
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: sometimes Okay.
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  Speaker 4: So basically the it's complicated channel is I call it
• 1:46
  Speaker 4: the rules of modern dating and understanding women, Which when
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: I explain that to people on the street, they often
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: will just immediately chuckle and they'll say, oh, understanding women,
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: like you can't understand women, women don't know what they
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: want or something like that. That's kind of just a
• 2:01
  Speaker 4: good way to create some engagement, I guess.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, So what inspired you, Like why did
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: you decide to do this?
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: We were talking a little bit.
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  Speaker 1: Before the show, and you know, you're in California now,
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: you're originally from Jersey, went to California to go to
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: film school, right.
• 2:18
  Speaker 5: Sorry, Vegas is where I'm currently located.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Oh, Vegas is where you're at. Okay, you're on the
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: West coast though, yes, or at least a West word.
• 2:26
  Speaker 5: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: So what's the story, Like, how did you come to
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: make this content?
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  Speaker 4: Well, basically, just Vegas is a city where you know,
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: people come and they want to try to socialize, they
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: want you know, they go clubbing, they go partying and everything,
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: and you get every culture represented out here. And I
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: just figured, you know, it's like I just started running
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: to the same old issues, like you know, I would
• 2:50
  Speaker 4: talk to women and they would say, you know, I
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: want to find a nice guy, but then they would
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  Speaker 4: continually go for these bad boys, and just I don't know,
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: just I started noticing a lot of contradictions between what people.
• 3:05
  Speaker 5: Said that they wanted and what they actually responded to.
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: And then you know, I started you know, observing, like
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: you know, make taw content. And I said, okay, like
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  Speaker 4: what I'm hearing about women, a lot of this stuff
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  Speaker 4: is making sense. And so I just started formulating these
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: questions and saying, okay, well, you know, how would women
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: respond to this or respond to that? And the channel
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: kind of started where I just went out on the
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: street and I just start having like long conversations with
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  Speaker 4: random people, women and also men, and just asking about
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: their experiences. And you know, people who were on vacation
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: would stop and talk to me for forty five minutes,
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  Speaker 4: and I'm like, wow, people actually have a lot to
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: unpack here and get off their chest. And I thought
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: that was really quite flattering that people would be so
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: giving of their time. And it was it almost started
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: as almost like a street therapy session, you know.
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: Mm hmmm hm.
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  Speaker 1: When when were you like looking for a girlfriend or
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: something at the time, like when this was starting to happen,
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  Speaker 1: I mean.
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  Speaker 4: Whenever I would go out, I mean obviously I would,
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  Speaker 4: you know, take notice. I mean, there's beautiful women all
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: over this town and you can't not notice them. But
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  Speaker 4: you know, it's like, I just noticed that women tended
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  Speaker 4: to be very kind of stand offish, like you know,
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  Speaker 4: you'd approach them, and they seem like they didn't want
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  Speaker 4: to be approached, and so I was just like, why
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  Speaker 4: would you even go out to be social?
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  Speaker 5: Why would you even go out socializing and not be social?
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  Speaker 4: Like women just kind of wanted to stick to their
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: girlfriends and they just weren't very welcoming or very approachable,
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  Speaker 4: and so thinking, well, we know when women don't want
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  Speaker 4: to be approached.
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  Speaker 5: It's very obvious. When is it okay to approach a woman?
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  Speaker 4: And I even did an episode about that called being Approachable,
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  Speaker 4: where I asked kind of like, okay, women will will
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  Speaker 4: say they want to go out to clubs only to
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  Speaker 4: dance and not be approached by men, and I'm like, well,
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: want you to just go to gay clubs?
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Well yeah right? Exactly What was your view on relationships?
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: What was your perspective or your beliefs about relationships before
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  Speaker 1: you started doing this content.
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  Speaker 4: Well, I mean, we have this kind of like blue
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  Speaker 4: pill mindset where you know, you uh, go out and
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  Speaker 4: you're going to you know, just find the right girl,
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  Speaker 4: and uh, you know, I don't know, maybe we're all
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: told we're going to meet some girl in high school
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  Speaker 4: and you know, maybe you'll marry your high school sweetheart
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  Speaker 4: or something like that.
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  Speaker 3: And you know, you were you told that, like one more.
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: Quick thing, I was just going to say that that
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  Speaker 4: I believe that women were as interested in meeting men
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  Speaker 4: as men were interested in meeting women, and I kind
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: of felt like like I was thinking to myself, God,
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  Speaker 4: do women really even like men?
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  Speaker 5: At some point it didn't even seem like that was
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  Speaker 5: the case.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, before you you were you bought into the
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: idea that, you know, like anybody like, oh, there's somebody
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: out there for everybody, and you just get out there,
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  Speaker 1: you know, be confident, whatever, and you'll find someone. And
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  Speaker 1: it was just sort of like a belief that everybody
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  Speaker 1: held right and you you probably believe.
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  Speaker 4: That two yeah, and then and then eventually, you know,
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  Speaker 4: every guy, you know, once he starts going out into
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  Speaker 4: the field and doing this kind of stuff.
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  Speaker 5: They quickly learned that the dating pool is not in
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  Speaker 5: their favor.
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  Speaker 4: And then we're told we have to basically learn game
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  Speaker 4: and we have to you know, kind of put on
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  Speaker 4: this persona. We have to you know, act confident, and
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  Speaker 4: we have to dress a certain way, and we have
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: to almost put on a performance. And you know, I've
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: even asked this question even to like, I don't just
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: question feminists on my channel, I'll also question dating coaches,
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: and I'll be like, okay, U, what is the difference
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: between seduction and manipulation Because it's almost like we have
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: to you know, almost like like lie and cheat and
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  Speaker 4: steal our way into getting what we want from women.
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  Speaker 4: And it's just not It's not a good way to
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  Speaker 4: start off any type of interaction. I don't believe, because
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  Speaker 4: you know, the whole purpose of a relationship is you
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  Speaker 4: want to be your genuine, authentic self so you have
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  Speaker 4: you know, a good a good relationship with somebody. You
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: don't want to start off on a bad foot because
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  Speaker 4: it's just going to carry through the whole relationship.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, unless of doros, the goal is just to get laid,
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  Speaker 1: which I think a lot of these guys like if
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  Speaker 1: that's all you're interested in. You're not thinking about building
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: anything with somebody, then maybe there's some utility to that,
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  Speaker 1: But I think I think it's good to ask a
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  Speaker 1: question because basically game is if you're not being authentic,
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  Speaker 1: it is not just a manipulation, but it's also like
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  Speaker 1: a self a rasure because you're basically saying who I
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  Speaker 1: am as I are as you know, who I am
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  Speaker 1: as I am is not going to be good enough
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  Speaker 1: for whatever reason. So I have to like at least
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  Speaker 1: posture like I'm someone of higher value than I am.
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  Speaker 1: It's like the old I think it was Chris Rock
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  Speaker 1: may have had this. He made this show kind of
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: stand up once where he said that when you meet someone,
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: you know, like on a date, you're not meeting them,
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  Speaker 1: you're meeting their representative bro and like over time you
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  Speaker 1: start to see who they really are, you know.
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  Speaker 4: But at the same time, you know, a lot of
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  Speaker 4: times if you're not escalating and using these strategies to
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  Speaker 4: to be seductive, then you often get friend zoned. And
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  Speaker 4: so that's you know, so you kind of have to
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  Speaker 4: you know, you have to know these strategies in order
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  Speaker 4: to you know, like like one of the questions. I
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: want to do an upcoming episode about attraction, and one
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  Speaker 4: of the questions I love asking women is how can
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  Speaker 4: a guy when approaching a woman, how can a guy
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  Speaker 4: make an interaction man to woman without being creepy while
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  Speaker 4: also respecting her without getting friend zoned?
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  Speaker 1: And it's a very what kind of answers did you get?
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  Speaker 4: Well, some of these questions I'd have to kind of
• 8:56
  Speaker 4: you know, like I've only asked it like once or twice,
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  Speaker 4: so I have to kind of like, you know, just
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: go out.
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  Speaker 5: And stress test it more sure.
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  Speaker 4: And that's kind of like what I started doing with
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  Speaker 4: a lot of these interviews is I would almost like
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: just go around and and practice some of the material
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  Speaker 4: just to kind of see what answers I would get,
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  Speaker 4: And then that would help me almost like anticipate with
• 9:21
  Speaker 4: some follow ups because I'm like, Okay, if I asked
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  Speaker 4: this question nine out of ten times, this is the
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: answer I'm going to hear, so I'm ready for it.
• 9:29
  Speaker 5: I'd like to explain it as I'm playing chess.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: They're playing checkers, so yeah, and mostly you're you're correct
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong, But you're basically asking red pill
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  Speaker 1: questions in a blue pill world, right, Like, you're talking
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: to normal people on the street, so most of them
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: are going to give you, like a normy answer.
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  Speaker 3: Is that what you generally experience?
• 9:50
  Speaker 5: That's exactly Yeah, that's exactly it.
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  Speaker 1: And what have you noticed about that the trend of
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: those answers? What is the what is the blue pilled.
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: Response to that?
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  Speaker 1: You're kind of like not surprised by it, but just
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  Speaker 1: for people watching, because I'm sure you've asked a lot
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: of people a lot of questions.
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: Uh, the fact that a lot of people have this
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  Speaker 4: very ginocentric mindset where you know, women are the prize,
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  Speaker 4: and you know women are sacred, and you know it's
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: it's all about men having to prove themselves to women.
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  Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
• 10:22
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well let's back up for just a second because
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: you there's a couple of terms that came out and
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: I think what we I want to like dive into
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: a little bit and let's see if we can't refine
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: the definitions because I think a lot of these words
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: get misused sometimes. So first of all, you mentioned ginocentrism,
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: So what is meant by that? I mean, you said
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: women are the prize? Is that generally the short version
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: of what you think it means.
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  Speaker 4: I would define ginocentrism simply as a society that places
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: women on a pedestal. Women are elevated above men. So
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: it's the idea of, you know, men have to prove
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: themselves to be worthy of a woman.
• 11:07
  Speaker 5: It's the romantic.
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  Speaker 4: Model of you know, you know, we look at like
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  Speaker 4: romantic chivalry and this idea that you know, men have
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: to get down on one knee and profess his love
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  Speaker 4: to the woman, and men have to be willing to
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: sacrifice themselves for the woman, and men have to basically
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: provide for the woman. And I think that's kind of
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: the root problem that we're facing here, and a lot
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: of people who even want to call themselves redpill, I
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: think are unaware of a lot of things that they're
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: promoting speed into ginocentrism.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: So by ginocentrism, what we're basically saying is is that
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: essentially a woman's worth as a woman is inherent. A
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: man's worth is dependent on what he does. So it's
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: sort of like, you know, how people say this is
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: what a real man does. A lot of it comes
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: from like traditionalists, right, but not just that feminists do
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: the same thing. They'll throw it in your face all
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: the same. But there is no such thing as becoming
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: a woman. Like a woman is a woman by default.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: She just turns eighteen and she's a woman. A man
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: has to do something, you know, be of some quality
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: or achieve something to be seen as a man.
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: Does that make sense?
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean there's many maxims that are passed around
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: in this space. Women are born, men are made, or
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: women are born with their value. Men must create their
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: value things like that, or women must preserve their.
• 12:38
  Speaker 5: Value, things like that. Yeah.
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: So it's basically saying in an indirect way that men
• 12:45
  Speaker 4: don't have any intrinsic value, and so it feeds into
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: that kind of male disposability thing that I think is
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: dehumanizing of men. And that's something that is a big
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: problem that is not addressed nearly enough in the manosphere.
• 13:05
  Speaker 5: It's almost like you're.
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: Just accepting these terms and saying, Okay, now we have
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: to navigate this problem rather than let's fix this problem.
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, I want to say real quick to the chat.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: So first off, if you guys want to send us
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: a message, I will read it on screen. Send a
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: super chat or a rumble rant or a superchow by
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: going to feed the Badger dot com forward slash just
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: the tip to send us a superchow. I see people
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: in the vertical chat asking if I take questions in livestream,
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: send them as a super chat or a superchow, and
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: I will take them.
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: But I do see your chat.
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: I just don't want to spend a lot of time
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: reading the chat. But I appreciate you guys being here
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: on stream and I am looking at your chat, all right,
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: But anyway, so men are human doings and women are
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: human beings, right, so like and okay, so this is
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: when you say them, because you mentioned the red pill
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: or the manisphere. How do you define that you are
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: the red pill? What's the red pill? Is that different
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: from us? We're called MRAs? Is that different? Is that
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: the same?
• 14:11
  Speaker 5: Well, there's many different voices in the space.
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: I would say that the manisphere is kind of like
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: the umbrella term that encompasses all the different voices in
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: the space.
• 14:20
  Speaker 5: But you know, there's.
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: MRAs, there's MiG TEW, there's red pillars, there's obviously the
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: different factions of the red pill.
• 14:28
  Speaker 5: There's black pill, there's Purple.
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: Pill, there's the Sure, there's even a new growing term
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: that actually was the inception of it was actually on
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: Shaw's channel. Shaw's a friend of It's complicated and basically
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: shout out to him.
• 14:44
  Speaker 5: He on his stream.
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: They a lot of the concepts that they were discussing
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: kind of got I guess, encapsulized, if you will, by
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: this new term called the gold pill.
• 14:56
  Speaker 5: And the gold pill is just this new.
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: It's almost like what we would describe as a paradigm shift,
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: where we're almost like saying that it's, in its simplest form,
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: a rejection of the romantic model and the idea that
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: a woman should be expected to bring some type of
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: financial contribution to a relationship instead of expecting the man
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: to be the sole provider.
• 15:24
  Speaker 5: And almost see.
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: Him as less masculine if he doesn't take on that burden.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: Right, But is that a new idea though, because I
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: think historically that's been the case for most of our history.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: It's just that since we introduced the concept of romantic chivalry,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: not nightly chivalry like whatever was before, but this romantic
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: chivalry model, that that's when it's changed. Like there was
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: this idea that men had to, you know, we're expected
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: to be to bring all of the security and the
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: stability and the finances and on the property and everything
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: to the table where women don't have to bring anything,
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: or even worse, they could bring debt.
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: That's what That's what happens a lot now.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: But wasn't it the case that in the past a
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: marriage was more like a business agreement.
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: Yes, And this is goes perfectly into the conversation about
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: the dowry. And the dowry was basically, you know, when
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: you when you had these arranged marriages, there was basically
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: the dowry system where women were A dowry basically refers
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: to money or property brought by a bride's family to
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: her husband on their marriage. And it was a pre
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: mortem inheritance from from the bride's father that you know,
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: would be used to kind of set it was a
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: conjugal fund and it would be used to set up
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: the new household. And I did an episode about this,
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: but I was inspired to do it because Shah was
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: somebody who did a lot of the research on just
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: the history of dowry. And also there was another concept
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: called bride price or bride wealth. But you know, marriage
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: was looked at as it was, it was a marriage transaction.
• 17:18
  Speaker 5: And so.
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: What I started to come up with is questions, you know,
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: about how did we go from this dowry system to
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: this romantic model. And came up with questions like, Okay,
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: if women have always been the prize, why did the
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: concept of a dowry ever exist in the first place?
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: And why is it that women brought more to the
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: table when they weren't working and bring less to the
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: table now that they are working. And so these are
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: important questions to ask. And when I think it's what
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: I think is especially interesting is now you have all
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: these trad cons or traditional conservatives who are pushing this
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: idea of traditional marriage today, but they're going off of
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: a nineteen fifties model instead of the way that marriage
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: was done for thousands of years through United Christendom. And
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: they have this kind of like this idea that they
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: just never bring up the concept of a dowry. And
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: I'm just very interested to find out why is that
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: just out of paper or are they kind of just
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: you know, if.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: I had to guess, I would say it's ignorance more
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: than anything, because I think a lot of people who
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: call themselves trad are just feminists from like thirty years ago.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: So I think that feminism is the water we swim in,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: and it just depends on how deep you are in
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: that ocean.
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: Like look at Tommy Lauren. I don't know if you
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: know who that is.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: She's like a female conservative commentator that have went on
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: this whole thing about like, you know, men aren't stepping
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: up to the plate well enough and the pickens are
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: slim and all of this, and she had no answer
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: for like, what is it that you bring to the table,
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: because she's still she there's so yeah. The thing is
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: like I don't think there are really many trad cons
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: at all. I think that there are people who call
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: themselves that, but they're still feminists from you know, from
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: the sixties, and a lot of them if you ask them,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: you know, like if you really challenge their beliefs about
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: women or at least the dynamics between women and men,
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: or whether or not the feminist movement had, you know,
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: a utility at any point in history, they'll all fall
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: back on some older wave without questioning the root of
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: it itself. And I think that part of the reason
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: why we're living under this it's not even a romantic model,
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: because men and women are not pairing up, you know,
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: like it's actually I think that ever since we introduce that,
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: if you if you look at and I mean I
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: don't have the data in front of me or anything,
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: so I'm just this is my instinct speaking here. I
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: bet that the dramatic increase in things like divorce and
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: child custody battles and child support an alimony, there is
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: a probably a correlation between when we stopped, you know,
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: essentially like marrying in our own communities to people who
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: we knew very well, who our families knew really well.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: If you think about not necessarily before the Internet, but
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: before dating had gone really like out there, and most
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: of it was like pretty contained, like you know, a
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: boy and a girl know each other from school, They
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: only knew people in their own little town. They married
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: who were they were close to. All their families knew
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: each other, they already vetted each other, and that would
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: be like the impetus for that. And in some communities
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: like today, that still happens if you go to like
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: you know, and where the Amish are or like the
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: Mormons or something like that. So it's not like it's
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: gone away even where I live, you know, that there
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: is a lot of that where people, you know, like, oh,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: I just knew her my whole life, and we're going
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: to get married, and they would just do that and
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: there'd be no issue. So there must be like something
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: about modernity that is doing this.
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: And I think that a.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: Lot of tradcon, especially the ones online, they're not trad
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: cons at all. They're just they're just feminists. They're just
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: they're just like second wave feminists.
• 21:07
  Speaker 5: You know, one thousand percent agree.
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: And I saw this debate with Tommy Lauren and Andrew Wilson,
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: who's yes, and basically he was calling her a covert feminist.
• 21:19
  Speaker 5: And I've been aware of this.
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: I did an episode at a Cowboy convention called Undercover Feminists.
• 21:26
  Speaker 5: But yeah, I mean basically they're cosplaying.
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: But yeah, but but but but to go a little
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: bit further on that point, if we're able to identify women,
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: as you know, these trad con women, as covert feminists,
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: why don't we go a little bit further and realize
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: that when trad con men say the same thing as
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: trade con women, why aren't they also labeled covert feminists.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't even call them covert feminists. I would just
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: call them feminists or feminists. But yeah, I would just
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: call them feminist because that's what they're doing.
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: But but the issue is, why are we only calling
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: out the tried women for being feminists and not the
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: trid men for also being feminists. They're saying the same
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: thing essentially.
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean we do on this channel.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: We call that out all the time because those those men,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: well they're just blue pilled.
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: Like that's kind of like ultimately, like if.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: You're a blue pilled person, then you're a feminist because
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: feminism is like I said, it's it is in the
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: it's the air we breathe, the water we swim in,
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: it's it is our world right as it is.
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: That's what it's like.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: Ginocentrism is a really useful tool for feminists. That's why
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: sometimes like when a what a trad claims and what
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: a feminist claim, they're very similar because they work in tandem,
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: like there's no real difference between them except you know,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: I guess like the paint job because they call themselves
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: something else. But I mean, like, you know, a person
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: can say that they're a woman, but that doesn't make
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: them a woman. A person can say they're not a feminist,
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: but it doesn't mean they're not right.
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it just comes down to what they actually believe.
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: So yeah, well well obviously feminists and trad cons are basically,
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: what's the expression, are two sides of the same ginocentric coin.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: Basically, Yeah, they serve each other and they they don't.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: Like when you mentioned the fifties thing, I don't think
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: people even know what the fifties was like, Like it
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: wasn't like that's not even the fifties. That's like the
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: the fifties as imagined through media, like oh, leave it
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: to Beaver, Like nobody lived that way though, correct, So
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: like even that, you know, it's kind of like mad men,
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: like people they think they invoke this, these fictions, this
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: stuff in our media to say this is what it
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: was like. It's like, no, it wasn't actually like that
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: at all. And Hollywood's been lying to you forever about
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: reality and you're referencing lies to make claims about reality,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: and so you got nothing right.
• 23:49
  Speaker 5: Yeah, women want their relationships to be like the Notebook.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, And I do it as a man. I
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: really don't because that movie is a nightmare.
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: For a man.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: But I got a super chat from Alex W who
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: gets this five dollars one read it really quick for
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: the record, guys, I'll do the super chats to super
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: Child's as a batch at the top of the hour
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: or in the you know or whatever. So Alex W says,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: for five bucks, gonna check this out later on new
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: tech platforms super chat for the algo.
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: We need help with our algorithm because it does not
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: like us very much. So anyway, so like, how long
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: have you been doing this, this show, these these uh
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: man the street things.
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: I started doing it in twenty nineteen, and they you know,
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: if you I haven't posted everything I've ever shot, but
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: some of my earliest stuff is still on the channel,
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: and they're just raw interviews. And I would just go
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: up and just kind of like challenge these bluepill people,
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: and I'd essentially have conversations and feed them the red
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: pill live on camera and say, okay, like what do
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: you think about marriage?
• 24:58
  Speaker 5: Do you think marriage is a fair deal? What's the
• 25:00
  Speaker 5: incentive for that?
• 25:01
  Speaker 6: You know?
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: And and you know, I started noticing that people would say,
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: that's a really good question. And I could have if
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: my channel wasn't called It's Complicated, it could have easily
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: been called that's a good question because owed me the
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: lack of self awareness, like people have never ever really
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: gone past level one to really think about what they're
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: signing up for. And I thought that was fascinating, and
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: you know, I said, Okay, there's a really there's a
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: lot to unpack here, and I just went down this
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: rabbit hole. And the more that I would questions just
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: led to more questions and more questions, and sometimes they
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: even lead to answers.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, so you've been doing this for about
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: six years. Yes, have you noticed any shift in the
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: kind of like general responses that you get after that time?
• 25:55
  Speaker 5: Absolutely? Absolutely.
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: The fact that you know, I think that this manisphere
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: has almost gone through this collective red pill rage stage
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: where now you know, you just see all these viral
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: videos all over the internet from all these podcasts, which
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: you know, I mean some of them are I have
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: mixed feelings about them, but we obviously can see that.
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: On which one like the whatever podcast.
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: Kind of the podcast, and there's like the Fresh and
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: Fit podcast and a lot of and you know, you'll
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: see these viral clips where you know, we see that
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: you know, women are asking for you know, three hundred k,
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: you know, these these super high status guys that just
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: we're starting to see a collective pattern of women just
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: being delusional on these shows.
• 26:41
  Speaker 5: And so what ends up happening is.
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: Now when I start interviewing men, they are more aware
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: of the fact that women want, you know, six feet tall,
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: six pack ads, six figure income, things like that.
• 26:56
  Speaker 5: And so.
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: I think that there is some progress at least in
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: terms of how people realize what the game truly is now.
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: But I think that, like, I think some of the
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: descriptions are accurate, but I start to run into issues
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: when we talk about the prescriptions and how to how
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: to cope with these issues.
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, how to deal with it.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: So you say there is a shift, but it sounds
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: like is it more men that you think are like
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: getting more read peeled by this or women?
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: Also?
• 27:34
  Speaker 5: Men definitely more than women. I would say that.
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: I don't know when I first started doing this, I
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: mean women, I still get a lot of the women
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: with the open massandry, but you know, I'll kind of
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: like set it up, set up a question in a
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: certain way, like, Okay, are women's standards are women's dating
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: standards too high? Or are men just lazy, and for
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: the most part, you know, they go into you know,
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: men and just need to man up, men, need to
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: step up, things like that. But occasionally I'll get a
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: woman who says women's standards are just way too high.
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: So there are some women out there who are waking
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: up and realizing that, you know, a lot of modern
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: women are delusional. I mean, if you look at my
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: subscriber base, I mean, there are women who actually follow
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: my channel and are supportive of men. But I think
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: what almost happens though, a lot of times is there
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: are some women who might say, Okay, I don't agree
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: with feminism, but then they'll just label themselves I'm traditional,
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: and based on what we described earlier, traditionalism is still feminism.
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: So you know, just because you're anti feminist doesn't necessarily
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: mean that you're pro men.
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: No.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: I mean people want to treat it like a salad bar.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: They want to take what they want and leave the rest,
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: you know, So so you're going to get that's what's
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: going to happen, though, because people are it's a very
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: scary thing to actually confront like this, this dynamic and
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: where things are headed. I think that men are more
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: open to it Obviously they're affected by the landscape of
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: dating and everything, so they're more likely to be in
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: that position.
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: And I think that.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: Men are really waking up like fast and you know,
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: like over time, but there is it's very difficult to shake,
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: which is why, you know, going back to what you're
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: saying about the red pill guys, that they're they're still
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: kinocentric in that they will use their success for women
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: as a way of demonstrating their status. Right, so when
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: they say, well, look I've been with all these women,
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: that means I'm more of a man than you, which
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: I know I've seen them do. It's like, dude, you're
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: playing right into their hand, Like this is the problem
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: is the fact that you measure your worth as a
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: man based on how much approval you get from women's
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: And that's just like a male feminists that would you know,
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: go out and say, well, I unlike those misogynist guies
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: over at the Whatever podcast and Fresh and Fit, I
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: respect women. They're playing the exact same game because they're
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: measuring their worth based on how women are affected by them.
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: Do you see what I'm saying.
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: Of course, there's this this term called hopeflation, which the
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: meme goes, men today have to work five times harder
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: than their grandfathers did, for women twenty times worse than
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: what their grandmothers were, and yet these guys are giving
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: the same prescription that men need to boss up and
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: increase their value. And I'm saying, okay, so aren't you
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: just feeding the very poflation problem that you're complaining about.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and again they probably say they don't care because
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: they're still kind of in their own they have their
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: own hedonistic problems that they're wrestling with.
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: So yeah, that's the that's the issue.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: So have you ever had any like negative confrontations with
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: people doing this stuff.
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: Well, I try to keep my tone very non judgmental
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: and not accusatory, because I want people to feel like
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: I don't really care what you believe. I just want
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: to know why. However, there have been a couple of
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: times where people have gotten triggered. I mean, there's obviously
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: sometimes the most viral stuff is when it's a heated,
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: you know, bloodsport debate. There was one time where this
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: girl was just yelling at me and it just went
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: back and forth. There was another time where she was
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: a feminist. There was another time where I actually triggered
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: this cowboy during my undercover feminist episode where.
• 31:55
  Speaker 5: You know, I would ask him follow up questions and.
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: He just just got triggered and said, look, I'm not
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: gonna argue with you. You're asking for my opinions, and you know,
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: I'm not trying to have an argument here. And I said, well, look,
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: I'm just trying to, you know, go a little bit
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: deeper and find out why. But I would say as
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: far as like the time where it got really out
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: of control, there's an episode I just said, it's complicated,
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: gets attacked and I was interviewing. I was interviewing this
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: girl and these three guys who were just I don't know,
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: they were just trolls.
• 32:29
  Speaker 5: This one guy, he's actually wearing.
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: A GoPro in the in the in the the footage,
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: and he just comes up and starts calling me, you know, like.
• 32:39
  Speaker 5: Whatever, like I abuse children and.
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: I, you know, all sorts of just just accusatory things
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: that were just absolutely not true and getting in my face.
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: And I just started recording the interaction and this girl
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: that I was interviewing actually defended me, which was kind
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: of funny, but yeah, that's on my channel.
• 32:56
  Speaker 5: There was just it was just a.
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: It wasn't really anything that had to do with like,
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: you know, I was interviewing somebody and then they just
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: got triggered.
• 33:05
  Speaker 5: These guys were just trolling me. But yeah, yeah, sure.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: And they were also trying to get they were recording
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: this on their end.
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think a Cloud Chasers like almost like kind
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: of like Jackass style where they just wanted to do right,
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: you know, create a scene and record it and try
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: to create a viral moment or something like that.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: So yeah, and that was in Vegas too. I'm sure
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of act goals on these big cities.
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: I'll tell you this, Vegas, especially the Vegas Strip, is
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: one of the hardest locations to film in. I mean,
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: yesterday I was out and I was trying to film
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: this one girl and get this interview at two in
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: the morning, where I figured, Okay, there's not a lot
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: of street performers, there's not a lot of cars on
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: the street, but there was construction and jackhammering going on
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: at two in the morning, always under construction, and there's
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: always noise, and it's really hard to just the hardest
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: part of my job is just trying to find a
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: quiet area where I can record just some clean dialogue.
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I bet so.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: I got a rumble rant and I was going to
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: bring this up to you attention to So I'm glad
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: that Nova Fan put this through. Nova Fan twenty one
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: gave us a dollar on Rumble and said, at it's complicated.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: Some studies have been showing the youngest generation of women
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: have become more progressive than past generations of women.
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: Have you seen this more reflected lately?
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: Well, I mean, I definitely see that. I think that
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: men are leaning right and women are leaning left. And
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: I think that I've said this before. I think that
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: the gender divide is almost like a mirror for the
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: political divide.
• 34:41
  Speaker 5: And I think that I did an episode.
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: It brings up an episode that I did called economically
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: socialist romantically capitalist.
• 34:52
  Speaker 5: That's what I think women are.
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: I think that when it comes to dating, women want
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: a meritocracy. They want the best and most qual But
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: when it comes to everything else, they want equality and fairness,
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: they want the stand they want socialism. When it comes
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: to uh, you know, the job market, they want you know,
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: the standards lowered for them.
• 35:12
  Speaker 5: And that's the thing.
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: It's like, why, why, why don't we have you know,
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: dating socialism for men?
• 35:18
  Speaker 5: You know what I mean?
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: Why don't why don't women load the standards for men?
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: But you know what I mean? So yeah, that was
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: kind of interesting there, So.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, uh well, actually the truth is is that
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: men have only moved slightly right, like it's just like
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: a slight movement away from progressive and women have gone
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: super far left and that and that is and you're
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: right about the political divide. And I've been saying that
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: for years. I've said that the reason why we have
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: two wings is because we have two sexes, and one
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: of them is more concerned with security that's women, and
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: one of them more more concerned with liberty.
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: That tends to be men.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: Not not an absolute statement, but I think in general,
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: if you look at what men tend to value and
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: what women tend to value, what women tend to value
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: lands more in the security and equality camp and what
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: men tend to value lands more in the freedom and
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: meritocracy camp.
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: And I also think that women benefit from wanting bigger
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: government because government has basically replaced men. Women don't need
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: men anymore as providers because now the government provides for
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: them through welfare, the welfare system exactly.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Okay, So nova fan sent another rumble ran
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: thank you nova fan for a dollar, and he says
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: it's complicated. I keep hearing feminists say it's only gotten
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: worse for women as time goes on, like in terms
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: of like, you know, women are more.
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: Oppressed than ever.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: Does this attitude reflect your more recent interviews? Have men
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: become more misogynistic for you?
• 36:51
  Speaker 6: I think that that could be perceived because I think
• 36:58
  Speaker 6: that a lot of the problems with the red pillar
• 37:01
  Speaker 6: the manisphere is that it sometimes comes across or it
• 37:06
  Speaker 6: could be perceived as a male supremacy movement, like we're
• 37:09
  Speaker 6: trying to basically reinstate patriarchy and a patriarchal structure, where
• 37:15
  Speaker 6: you know, we.
• 37:17
  Speaker 5: Want women to go back to the kitchen.
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: We want women to go back to the way that
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: they were before feminism.
• 37:23
  Speaker 5: Whereas I don't think that that.
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: Is necessarily my goal or what I think is going
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: to even be possible, because that would require taking away
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: women's rights, and that's something that just is not really feasible,
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: and I don't really think that that's.
• 37:39
  Speaker 5: Even moral to do that.
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: I think a better option is we need to focus
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: more on men's liberation. If women have been liberated from
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: their traditional roles, I think men kind of have to
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: be liberated from their traditional roles otherwise you create this
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: imbalance where men are almost put in this simping dynamic
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: where we have to.
• 38:03
  Speaker 5: We have to conform to.
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: What society dictates that a real man should be versus
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: women can be whatever they want.
• 38:12
  Speaker 5: If that makes sense.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, like right now, men subsidize women's choices.
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: Like through the government, yes, and I yeah, I guess
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: there's we're at a crossroads.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: You were talking about how the prescription is where there's
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: a lot of like you know, divergence, Like we all
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: see the problem, but a lot of people have different
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: ideas about what the solution going forward is. So you're
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: proposing that men be liberated in the same way that
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: women be liberated, or at least something like that, we'll
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: at least.
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: Be headed in that direction. Like I think that masculinity
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: needs to be redefined. I think that there's nothing inherently
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: wrong with masculinity, But when masculinity has almost been co
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: opted where you're not a real man unless you do
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: A B and C, then we're basically being controlled.
• 39:01
  Speaker 5: Through through our through the definition of.
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: Masculinity by being expected to conform to this prescripted masculine identity.
• 39:08
  Speaker 5: Otherwise you're not a real man.
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: Mm hmmm, I got a rumble.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: I want to say something about that, but I got
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: a rumble rant from uh shown Sean Mao and they say,
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: socialized dating sees the means of production of reproduction sarcasm.
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: Okay, thank you.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: And then ZARAENX gave us well he's a member, Thank you, Zaryns.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: And he says patriarchy is not a bad thing in
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: that respect, in that respect and doesn't express hatred. Home
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: is where the heart is. Women at home tend to
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: the nexus of the family. All right, So thank you
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: for your comments. Really appreciate it. So yeah, I think
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: that there's two ways it can go. Either we we
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: liberate men more and maybe, like you're saying, essentially open
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: up what it means to be a man, like sort
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: of open up the definition of masculinity.
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: You would you say, it's fair what I'm saying.
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: I agree, But what often happens is you run the
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: risk of being labeled a feminists when you do that,
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: because right now there's this whole masculinity movement. A lot
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: of people think that masculinity is the solution, like we
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: need strong men, you know, to get things back in order.
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: And when you think about what they're pushing, it's almost
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: like they're trying to shame men back into being this
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: utility to serve women, and that just feeds right back
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: into the gynocentrism. I think right that when you talk
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: about subsidizing women, it's like, what needs are women currently being.
• 40:38
  Speaker 5: Deprived that they're forced to be with men.
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: I don't really see anything, because the government pretty much,
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: you know, takes care of women, but men are being
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: deprived needs that they're forced to be with women.
• 40:49
  Speaker 5: And I don't know a lot of.
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: People talk about like, you know, when these AI bots
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: come out, you know, then all of a sudden, men
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: won't have to deal with women because we'll all have,
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: you know, an AI girlfriend or something. I say, why
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: not just have legal prostitution, brothels.
• 41:04
  Speaker 5: We're safe and regulated because of men. So many men
• 41:07
  Speaker 5: are controlled by women through these these three superpowers. I
• 41:12
  Speaker 5: call it the Holy Trinity. Women have sexual power over men.
• 41:16
  Speaker 5: They have the victimhood power over men.
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: Because our societies believe all women blame all men, and
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: they have chivalry power, which is basically the romantic model
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: of you know, women on the prize. Women are on
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: a pedestal, and so how do you even compete with
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: that women? You know, So we have to kind of
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: chip away and try to you know, balance the neutralize
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: these powers that women have so men have more of
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: a level playing field. Otherwise women just become this liability
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: and the only solution is for men to go miktaw
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: and just not even engage.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean all that sounds I mean, yeah, I've heard.
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: All of this before. As a proposal.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking about, like what is the more what's going
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: to be sustainable because what I'm worried about is that
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: our birth rates are falling and it's going to get
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: to a point where the infrastructure will not be able
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: to be sustained because it is sustained by people mostly men,
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: almost all men really, and we're going to like if
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: everybody's with prostitutes and sex robots, then they're not pairing
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: up right, and they're not making babies, and a lot
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: of the artificial ways that we do that are not
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: really they're not really as effective or reliable as we're
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: led to believe, you know, like some crazy high percentage
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: of sperm in a sperm bank is like inviable, Like
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: it doesn't it doesn't actually result in pregnancy.
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: And so what what I think would be.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: The most because I want the human species to thrive,
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: So what I think would we find a way to
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: like move towards that. But in terms of the other
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: there's another side to the coin of like do we
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: liberate men?
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: What if? And this is what I'm thinking about.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: I think that it's time that women are held accountable,
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: and I think that we have to. What we should
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: be doing is if there is such a thing as
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: a real man, and I think that there should be
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: a lot of wiggle room in that.
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to go with some.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: Weird like nineteen fifties, you know, stereotype of what that is,
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: because there are real men of all different kinds that
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: work in intellectual pursuits, creative pursuits, and you know whatever.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: But we should also be thinking about what a real
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: woman is and what that looks like, and maybe they
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: should maybe women should become in the same way that
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: because I think that men becoming despite all the hardship,
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: is how we got all of this that we have
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: this society that we live in, all of this advanced technology,
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: all the ability for you and I to talk across
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: the country on the internet.
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: Like men did that and.
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: It was not because, you know, they were just liberated
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: to do it. It was because they because men feel
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: inside them a need to build and if they're building
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: for something like their legacy, like their children, then they're
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: going to be way more inspired to do that.
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: But we don't do that to women.
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: We've liberated them from everything, and they're miserable right, Like
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: they're like their happiness is in the toilet, and they're
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: just becoming more and more demanding. So it's like, well,
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: maybe women need a calling and they need people that
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: are going to hold their feet to the fire and
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: say you need to like woman up, Like, maybe that's
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: what we need.
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: I don't know what you think about that.
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: Well, a lot of times people say, well, women are
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: allergic to accountability. They don't like accountability. That doesn't mean
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: they shouldn't be held accountable. I mean criminals and children
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: don't like accountability. There needs to be accountability placed on women.
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: And I mean I'm not going this far, but I mean,
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: you know, you could ask the question. If men are
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: supposed to be conscripted into war, why aren't women conscripted
• 45:02
  Speaker 4: to have children? But you know, with women, it's it's
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: it's her body, her choice. But when it comes to
• 45:09
  Speaker 4: it's not our body, our choice.
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: And as.
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: Tough and as far as society goes, I mean, it
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: really just comes down to you have to have skin
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: in the game and feel like there's some type of
• 45:21
  Speaker 4: incentive for you.
• 45:22
  Speaker 5: I believe personally, I've said this before.
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: I believe if men could get sex anytime they want,
• 45:28
  Speaker 4: would there be any reason to be with a woman
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: other than love? So maybe relationships would be better.
• 45:35
  Speaker 5: I don't know. I mean I heard in Japan brothels
• 45:41
  Speaker 5: have saved marriages things like that.
• 45:43
  Speaker 4: I'm not sure, because you know, if you're stuck in
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: a marriage and it's a dead bedroom. I mean, I
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: don't know all the details on that, so I don't
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: really want to speak too much on it. But sure,
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: I'm just saying that it seems like women aren't really
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: interested in greater good of society. They're just interested in
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: their own personal happiness and freedom.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, I know I think they are
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: right now, Like I said, they've gone like farther like
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: super progressive in this last generation, right, but they are
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: also starting to like I don't know if you've seen this,
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: but there's been like a spate of articles, thought pieces,
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: and they've been going like steadily for a while, but
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: they've really ramped up recently where it's like, where please,
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: men come back?
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: Where are the men? You know?
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: And I knew this was going to happen. I called
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: it back when I started doing this. I said that
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: if enough men go migtow, and I want to talk
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: a little bit about miktow because I think it's a
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: very important part of this, women will suffer. And then
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: when the suffering reaches a certain point, they will probably
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: start to you know, like hopefully look in the mirror.
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: No promises.
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: We don't know, but like that's that's kind of like
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: there's only two ways that that's gonna work that where
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: women start to correct their behavior or at least like
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: analyze it. One is if other women call them out,
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: which I think is because men don't really have the
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: power to do that, so other women will have to
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: call them out, which I am starting to see. Or
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: if they are lonely enough and they start suffering and
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: they start getting baby braby's and all of that, because
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: that is what happens is a lot of these millennial women.
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: For example, that was when this really started to go
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: off the rails, was when the millennial women they are
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: now getting into their forties and they're like, I'm alone.
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: What the hell? I'm very unhappy.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: I want to fix that, but unfortunately a lot of
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: them are not going to find anybody right because it's
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: too late for them. So maybe they'll start to call
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: each other out. So that's the one side. But the
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: other side is if enough Mick Tao check out, they'll suffer,
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: and they they'll suffer because they're alone.
• 47:49
  Speaker 5: So a couple things about that.
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: First off, I was thinking, if eighty percent of men
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: are already invisible to if eighty percent of men are
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: already deemed invisible to women, then taking yourself off the market,
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: is that really going to have an effect if you're
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: already invisible to most women anyway? However, you know a
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: lot of women still I'm very skeptical of that because
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: when women want men to come back, they essentially just
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: say they want men to come back and be utilities.
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: So you know, are if we come back we have
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: to come back on different terms. If we come back
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: on the same role terms, then we haven't made any
• 48:29
  Speaker 4: progress at all. The other thing is the fact that
• 48:33
  Speaker 4: when we're talking about, you know, the lack of awareness
• 48:36
  Speaker 4: of women to even you know, self analyze and understand like, Okay,
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: what's going on here? What about all these people in
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: the mainstream media who are I mean, I've seen countless,
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: countless news stories about people saying men are struggling, men
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: are struggling, and they just have no awareness to why
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: men are checking out. They just say men are week
• 49:00
  Speaker 4: and men would rather stay home and play video games
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: and watch OnlyFans or whatever men choose to do. But
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: they're not asking what is it that the women are
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: doing or the society is doing to drive men to
• 49:14
  Speaker 4: check out.
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: I think that in the mainstream, for sure, they're not
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: They're they're asking the question. They know that that there's
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: a problem, but they're unwilling and I think it's moral
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: cowardice to face why this is happening, And one of
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: the ways they avoid it is by not talking to
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: men directly. But what you're going to see is in
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: the mainstream like the you know, like your three letter
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: news agencies or whatever. Like the big, big mainstream legacy
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: media outlets, they're going to continue to ignore the problem,
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: and if they do get a man on to talk
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: about it, they're probably just gonna shame him for not
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: manning up enough. But on the growing alternative space, there
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: are conversations happening now those the people like I just
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: saw like a long debate.
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: Do you know of a channel called Diary of a CEO?
• 50:02
  Speaker 5: Yes, And I just saw that.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: You saw the feminist debate that they had about men
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: and so like that. Okay, so not very far along.
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: They don't get it yet, but they are talking about it.
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: So I do think that it's getting to the point
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: where now where they can't really avoid the topic. So
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: we've got to have to talk about this, but they're
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: just unequipped to talk about it.
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: And what I'm hoping.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: For is that it will get to the point where
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: somebody that actually knows something is gonna be on. But
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: there I think that's still stuck in this mindset of
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: if we actually have to listen to what men actually think,
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: they might say something misogynistic and that's the last thing
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: we want, right And I think that that's just a
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: silly thing to go on because I don't think honestly,
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: I don't think misogyny exists.
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't.
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: I think that men get frustrated, Like, for example, why
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: is it why do you think here's something that I
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: wanted to bring up before, If Mick Tao are actually
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: removing themselves from the equation and they're just not interacting
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: with women, why do feminists or just anybody for that matter,
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: But I to say feminists because I'm applying it to everybody.
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: Why do they still insist that there's something about them
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: that's evil when they're actually not putting themselves around women,
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: Like if Miktawer are dangerous to women, but they're not
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: around women because they're checking out, why do these people
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: still shame them?
• 51:24
  Speaker 5: Great? Great question. I don't know.
• 51:25
  Speaker 4: I guess it's just because the entitlement of you know,
• 51:29
  Speaker 4: seeing men as utilities and if you're not serving women
• 51:33
  Speaker 4: then yeah, I mean obviously if a man puts his
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: own needs ahead of women, he's going to be seen
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: as selfish? Were okay? Better example, why is it that
• 51:45
  Speaker 4: society will shame men for going their own way as
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: a migtele, but it celebrates women for being an independent woman.
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: Doing the sex and the city thing, which I just
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: saw an article about that was like American women are,
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: you know, basically like checking out, like they're they're they
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: are finding their happiness without a man or something like that, right,
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: which by the way, has been promoted for a long time,
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: like this isn't like a new thing, and and you're right,
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, because ultimately, what it is about migtow that
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: these people hate is that they can't control them anymore.
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: They can't put them in a position where because what
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: ultimately they're saying is we don't want you to leave.
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: We want you to stay around women, but we want
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: you to not want the ree around them.
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: We just want you to there.
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: We want you to be serving us without expecting anything. Right.
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: I think migtow honestly is the most effective because men
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: have to protest in some way in order to make
• 52:44
  Speaker 4: any difference, because I think that they all require men's participation.
• 52:50
  Speaker 4: Like I talked about this on a recent interview. I
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: was on Just Pearly Things, and I talked about the
• 52:56
  Speaker 4: fact that everyone is explosvoitting lonely men right now. I
• 53:01
  Speaker 4: think that there is the male loneliness epidemic is by
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: design just follow the money. You've got feminists exploiting lonely
• 53:10
  Speaker 4: men to sell them OnlyFans. You've got trac coons exploding
• 53:14
  Speaker 4: lonely men to sell them marriage, which is an unfair deal.
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: And you've got dating coaches who want to exploit lonely
• 53:21
  Speaker 4: men to sell them courses and self improvement. So society
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: is incentivized to keep men sexually frustrated and lonely because
• 53:30
  Speaker 4: sex sells. I think that there's a lot of money
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: to be made in men's exploitation and men's oppression. Yeah,
• 53:40
  Speaker 4: and yeah, one other thing I wanted to respond to
• 53:43
  Speaker 4: earlier also that you said, that's on my channel.
• 53:48
  Speaker 5: I try to.
• 53:50
  Speaker 4: Hit the streets and talk to the average man, talk
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: to the people who actually have gone through these things
• 53:57
  Speaker 4: or are going through these things.
• 54:00
  Speaker 5: Try to get, you know, give these people a voice.
• 54:04
  Speaker 4: Because on a lot of these podcasts or on a
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: lot of the mainstream media, they're talking on behalf of men,
• 54:11
  Speaker 4: or they're talking at men, they're not talking to men.
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: And so I think that when we talk to people
• 54:17
  Speaker 4: who actually are dealing with it or going through it,
• 54:21
  Speaker 4: you're going to get a better representation and that's basically
• 54:24
  Speaker 4: what's not happening, and so I want to be able
• 54:27
  Speaker 4: to offer something different in that aspect.
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: Well, and I think that again, like when it comes
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: to relationships, which is not really our particular focus when
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: we talk about the legal and the legislative and things
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: like due process and all that, but we do talk
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: about dating because if men and women are not pairing up,
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: then like all of we're just wasting our time, like
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: everything's going to be done. But when it comes to
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: the migtile thing, I think that is a very effective
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: means of protest. You know, it is said that women
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: are the gatekeepers of sex, but men are the gatekeepers
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: of commitment. So like if a man, like if he
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: holds his ground and says, I will not get involved
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: with someone at all unless like you know, like because
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: women a lot of them are looking for like the
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: ring or something, especially as they get older, but they
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: have but men have to realize they have that leverage
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: that they can control that. Now it's not a lot
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: because again we talk about the divorce courts and all
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: these other things that are just a crazy landfield, a
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: minefield for men rather, and I think that that's why
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: men typically go the migtile right route.
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: Because but even then.
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: Like there have been stories of men who have you know,
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: done everything they can to avoid women and they end
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: up falsely accused of something or in some kind of trouble,
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: you know. I mean, the the me Too movement has
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: destroyed companies where they just go through it accused men
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: of stuff, and then and they give those jobs to
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: women because the unions get in on it and it's
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: like tanked the company.
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: And this happens everywhere.
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: So it's like one of these things where it's almost
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: you almost have to weather it until the damage is
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: done and then see who comes out of it with
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: a little bit of you know, it's the word I'm
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: looking for, humility, Like, oh I.
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: Was wrong about all that, but it's yeah.
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: Well, what I don't understand is why does so much
• 56:28
  Speaker 4: of the advice that men are getting online is about
• 56:31
  Speaker 4: how to navigate this minefield rather than let's all work
• 56:35
  Speaker 4: collectively together and remove the minds.
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: Mm hmm. Well that's what again.
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: That's why I do this work that I do, because
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: you know, I have spoken to for example, there's a
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: big problem in the military with the kind of like
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: title nine merried costs. Okay, So you have these these
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: studies and I'm just going to use the word because
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: I don't like censoring myself. So the rape culture studies
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: that are cited by we're basically based on a woman's
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: work named Mary Coss, who was all about distorting the
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: figures so that you get like the highest possible number.
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: So it's like one in three or one in four
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: women are raped in college campuses or whatever, right, And
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: this has created a climate of false allegations and a
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: lot of damage and fear because I mean, like, if
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: you're a woman and you hear that stat you're going
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: to be like, well, I don't want to be around
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: men ever. So right, like why is gen z having
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: less sex than ever?
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: Whether.
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: There's a number of factors, and I think one of
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: them is that fear of like getting involved with anybody.
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: But that has also it's not only in our college campuses.
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: It's happening in our military. And I've had a series
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: of men on and and women who are like the
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: mothers of you know, soldiers who have had like absolutely
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: devastating experiences with false allegations. Most of the time it's
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: because somebody was cheating and there was infidelity and they
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: didn't they were embarrassed or they didn't want to get costs,
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: they just made an allegation instead or something like that.
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: And it just these guys.
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: They go to jail, they get you know, dishonorably discharged,
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: they end up on a sex offender registry. They had
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: to tell everybody in the new community they live in
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: about their circumstances. So we're trying to change the laws
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: and we are working on that. And I think that
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: you you you have to change the laws, so that's
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: like the top down thing, but also there has to
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: be a bottom up change where you shift the culture
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: so that these beliefs, you know, they're they're all based
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: on myths, and as soon as we kill the myths off,
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: then maybe some people will start to, you know, act rationally.
• 58:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we definitely have to change the laws and the culture.
• 58:45
  Speaker 4: Absolutely that that's a two part thing. But it reminds me.
• 58:48
  Speaker 4: I just I did an episode recently called what is
• 58:51
  Speaker 4: Consent where I was talking about it, watched it, Yeah,
• 58:55
  Speaker 4: and what's crazy.
• 58:56
  Speaker 5: Thank you.
• 58:56
  Speaker 4: What's interesting is the fact that so many people struggle
• 59:00
  Speaker 4: to define what consent actually means. And I was like, Okay, well,
• 59:05
  Speaker 4: if women struggle to understand consent, why are men expected
• 59:08
  Speaker 4: to understand it?
• 59:09
  Speaker 5: And there's all these.
• 59:10
  Speaker 4: Hypothetical scenarios where you know, it's like, okay, is it
• 59:15
  Speaker 4: any wonder why some of the numbers are so high.
• 59:17
  Speaker 4: I mean, when you're when you're you know, defining regret
• 59:21
  Speaker 4: as great, then you know the numbers might be artificially inflated.
• 59:26
  Speaker 4: And on top of that, a good comparison to those
• 59:29
  Speaker 4: numbers being being manipulated. Look at how the numbers are
• 59:34
  Speaker 4: manipulated when we're talking about the wage gap. More more
• 59:38
  Speaker 4: a misinterpretation and misinformation to make something that's not happening
• 59:43
  Speaker 4: look like it is happening.
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the I was just thinking. I was just thinking.
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: The consent thing is tough because it is very subjective
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: and I hate to tell you that, but it's the truth.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: Like whether or not someone feels like a woman feels like,
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: you know, if she didn't give consent is completely arbitrary.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: It's just what she feels and that's a problem. That's
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: why I say, you know, maybe men should not get
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: involved with women physically. Maybe sex should not be a
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: goal because if you don't like, for example, if she's
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: into something kinky, and this has happened. We've seen like
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: false allegations come out because women wanted to be choked
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: and then the guy's like, okay, if this is what
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: you're into, and then she accuses him of abusing.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: Her, and she has the bruises to prove it. So
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: it's like, well, what are you going to do?
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: So it's it to me anyway, Like I think that
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: men should be very very I to bear to say it,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: but conservative with their sexuality. I think it might just
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: be safer because you don't know, and again, we can't
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: define it.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: Women can't define it.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: Plus, you know, the the numbers are extremely inflated because
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: it could be Again, it just depends on how she feels,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: like if she just regrets having done something, like she
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: gets drunk and he gets drunk, like you know the
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: brock Turner case.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 5: You heard about that with that particular case.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: So brock Turner was like a he was like in
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: a college at Ohio maybe I can't remember the state exactly,
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: and he and a girl he was seeing, but she
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: was she had a boyfriend with somebody else, but he
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: didn't know that, and they got involved at a party.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: I think he was at a frat house and they
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: both got wasted.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: And you know, they were like doing four play in
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: but like out, you know, outside behind a dumpster or something,
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: and she passed out and he was like almost passed out,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: and these guys showed up and they saw him there,
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: and I guess they like kicked his ass and called
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: the cops or something. And it turned to this whole
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: thing where he was assumed to have raped her because
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: she was unconscious and he was barely conscious, and it
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: turned to a big like media circus and there were
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: people outside of his house.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 3: With guns and he had to like stay like in
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: his home. It later came.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: Out that he was not guilty because they were both
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: drunk and it was So it's one of those things, Okay,
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: So if if it's not consent, if somebody's drunk, what
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: is it when they're both drunk and they do something,
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: And what is it when like, you know, different people
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: have different tolerance for liquor. So if somebody else is
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: more drunk than somebody, is the person who's less drunk
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: the offender? And why is it only goes one way?
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: Because if women rape men, we don't even.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: Call it rape. We call it sexual assault, it's not
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: even at the same level.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 4: Well, I just did a short or a clip about
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 4: this where I said, if it's basically I said, why
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 4: are the consent laws targeting heterosexual men when the same
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 4: situation in a gay couple wouldn't even be a crime.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they often like have sex when they're drunk or
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: on drugs, Like that's a common.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 5: Thing thing in Vegas.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 4: It's a the nightlife culture. Most hookups happen under drunken conditions.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 4: So I even asked the question, are we going to
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 4: outlaw drunk sex?
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 5: Does that? Does that mean anyone who's ever had drunk
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 5: sex is great?
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 4: Like like to take this And and I've actually done
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 4: two episodes about consent. I did one like three years
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 4: ago where I said, are we headed towards needing consent contracts?
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 5: That is that where things are headed?
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 4: And I even remember there was an app at one
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 4: point where you had to get people to give consent.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 4: And even if it's that's the case, like what determines
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 4: what should and should not be spontaneous during sex? Do
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 4: you have to have like a list of all the
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 4: an itemized list of all the different things, like, oh, well,
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 4: you know, we can do this, but you.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 5: Know, if you do anal or I don't want to
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 5: go to graphic.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 4: But the point is it's just it's absurd, it's ridiculous
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 4: and it is and men are the ones who were
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 4: typically expected to be the initiators and it's like playing
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 4: with fire.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 5: It's crazy.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, like, why can't we us have a
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: common sense, you know, evidence based set of rules for
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: this or is it possible like on the other side,
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: like you're on the side of like, let's, you know,
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: let's make more liberation, more ability to access you know,
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: like legally and safely with things like prostitution, or we
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: go the other way and we basically like become more
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: like was hookup culture of mistakes? Should we be asking
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: that question? You know, is the dating model.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 3: Like all wrong?
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: Like what's wrong because like, you know, it's changed from
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: like dating somebody that you went to school with or
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: work with.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 5: Well, let me ask this for a second.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 4: Back in like the sixties when we had that free
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 4: love movement, it was essentially like a hookup culture. What
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 4: are all the meet to accusations back then? Why wasn't
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 4: consent a huge you know outrage back then? Why why
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 4: did men and women just figure it out.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: I think that it probably did happen, but it wasn't
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: publicized as much because the second wave feminist movement definitely
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: had you know, rape culture baked in. I mean Mary
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: Cossa's study I think came out in the seventies. I
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: don't know off the top of my head, but it
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: was like something that was in.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 3: The lexicon as being discussed at the time.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: I think that part of it was that at that
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: time you still dated people that you knew or like
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: was in your community, and if you went to like
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: Woodstock or something and you ended up, you know, because
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: the free love thing was definitely going on.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: There were orgies and drug field escapades.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: I know, like Charlie Manson had like a whole cult
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: of people that were just you know, banging each other
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: all the time. So I think that was going on.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: But I guess it just like you know, we didn't
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: make it as much of an issue, and I think
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: a lot of it had to do with that. Maybe
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: the men weren't complaining. Maybe the mindset was that if
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: you were a man and you got raped by a woman,
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: you were just lucky, you know, like that was and
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: that's still kind of a mindset, right, Like when you hear.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 3: These stories of school teachers.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: That prey on their kid and the students and then
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: guys go, oh that or like, you know, men and
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: women alike will be like, well, he's just lucky, and
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: it's like yeah, but first of all, that's that's damaging
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: that child because he might grow up having a different
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: twisted idea of what consent is because he was treated
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: that way. But also like, not all these women are
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: like super hot, Like they're like, you know, they're like bulldogs,
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: like sometimes you get you get raped by a handbast
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: and like that.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 3: So it shouldn't matter either way.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: But I'm just saying, like to just say, you know, nice,
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: like that's just kind of childish, you know.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 4: And one more thing just to add on to this
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 4: as well, is that you know, it doesn't matter how
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 4: high value or alpha you are, you get falsely accused.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 4: That's a legal problem. That's a legal issue. So that that,
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 4: you know, just self improvement is going to fix all
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 4: of men's collected issues is nonsensical. And I wish that
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 4: there'll be more attention. It just seems like there's too
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 4: much of the manisphere that's just focusing on self informent,
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 4: Like they don't even talk about circumcision, Like, why do
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 4: we not talking about real legitimate we do?
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure we Well that's the thing they're not.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: They're not concerned with men's issues, Like a lot of
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: them are just trying to sell something to men. And
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: the the truth is is that the if we had
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: our problems figured out, there would be no market for
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: them to do that. So I have to ask, like,
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: how many in the minisphere don't actually want the problem
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: solved because it would make it to where like there
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: it's going to take a cut out of their you know,
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: their their business, right, So like they don't they won't
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: talk about circumcision.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 3: We will. We do it all the time.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: And it's a very serious issue because again the abusive
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: boy starts that early.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: So, but I was gonna go back to something else,
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: and I was gonna respond to something you said, but
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: it's just like I just blanked. Sorry I'm getting old,
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: but so but uh, let me see, Well, okay, so
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: how do you how how do you what do you
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: want to do with your channel?
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 4: Now?
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: Like what what what kind of other stuff do you
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: want to do with It's complicated.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 5: Like other other topics, like I mean obviously.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like like do you want to just tep doing
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: the street things? Do you want to go to different places?
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: I know that you've been to looks like you've done
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: some events like conventions and stuff like that.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, one of the best things about Las Vegas
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 4: is that every culture is represented out here.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 5: So yeah, I'm definitely there's different topics.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 4: I mean, I can almost revisit some of the old
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 4: topics because in some cases, you know, I think that
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 4: my mindset is a little bit different or I've evolved
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 4: and I can come up with better questions. But you know,
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 4: I want to maybe interview some older people and talk
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 4: about maybe their perspective on modern society based on you know,
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 4: how things were things like that.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, older people, that could be interesting, especially if they're
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: like together. Still, yeah, like I don't know how much
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: of that goes on in Vegas, but I know it's
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: old women on the slots though.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 4: But I've talked to sex workers, I've talked to you know, conservatives,
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 4: I've talked to all different types of people.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 5: And.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 4: I would say, you know, ultimately, you know, I know
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 4: I'm a dating channel, but I really think that I'm
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 4: almost like a men's rights channel disguised as a dating channel,
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 4: because I think that we really have to kind of
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 4: change the laws, and we also have to change the culture.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 5: And I'm just trying to spread more awareness.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 4: And I think the first step towards any type of
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 4: social change is awareness. So that's the first thing, and
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 4: I'm trying to basically bring awareness to a lot of
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 4: the issues that I think that other creators in the
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 4: manisphere aren't necessarily talking about. But I think that I mean, obviously,
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 4: if I had the cheers, I mean, I suppose red
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 4: pill is better than being blue pill. But then you know,
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 4: there's you know, I mean some people are just black
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 4: pill and they just give up and say it's hopeless.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 4: I'm just saying that, you know, why be so defeatist.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 4: If things can change for the worst, why can't they
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 4: change for the better? I mean, obviously, you know, why
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 4: does anybody ever bother fighting for any social change. I
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 4: think that a lot of people just don't really understand
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 4: what's going on, and so I want people to at
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 4: least understand what the reality of things are. And and
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 4: because like I said, it's like I would keep interviewing
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 4: people and hear, that's a really good question. I never
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 4: thought of that before, and it's like, okay, now that
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 4: you are thinking about it, now, what what's the next
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 4: what's the next stage after you have had your you know,
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 4: your your bluepill mindset shattered.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: That's right, That's exactly how I think you start, because,
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: like the thing is, people don't You can't do it
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: all top down because if people don't know why something
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: matters their their ability to hold onto this idea well,
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: but just it's fleeting, it's very fragile. But if they
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: like ingrain it into their you know, into them by
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: thinking a lot about it, especially if people tend to
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: do what I've noticed when I like talk to people
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: about this stuff, they're very resistant at first, and then
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: we have more conversations, more conversations, and they always pretend
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: like they don't agree with me, or they have issue
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: with what I'm saying, or they it makes them uncomfortable.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: But over time they end up changing their mind and
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: then they tell me that they did it on their own.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: Like people, because they're so we have this thing about
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: ourselves that we just think that we're so smart, So
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: we just did it on our own and be like, well, no, no.
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: I always believe that it's like okay, it's okay, I'm
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: okay with you as long as we're on the same page. Now,
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: I don't care how you got there. And I think
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: that it comes from planting that seed and then you
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: just let it go and let them, you know, find
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: their way. But I think a lot of times, if
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: they're honest with themselves and they approach it with humility,
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: they will figure it out, or maybe they'll even bring
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: something to you that you didn't know. I'm always open
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: to learning something else right that I didn't consider, and
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: I stay open to that stuff.
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 3: And I think that's why the bottom up stuff is.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: It's better because it's more sustainable. But there are obstacles
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: that come from legislation. So when you say that you're
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: probably more like a men's rights channel disguise as a
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: dating channel. What do you think are the most important
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: like men's issues. I don't like to say rights, even
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: though that's what we get called, because I don't like
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: the word rights.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 4: But well, a lot of people also believe that men
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 4: already have all their rights. But I mean, it's not
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 4: just about men's rights because it's just the fact that
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 4: the way men are are, like, it's social issues, it's
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 4: the way that men are viewed in society, things like that.
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 4: But I would just say the fact that the fact
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 4: that men have to kind of be appreciated for who
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 4: they are and not necessarily like we have to view
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 4: men as human beings and not just these success objects.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 3: And human doings.
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and and that men are not owned. We are
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 5: not owned.
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 4: We are autonomous beings and we have to basically just
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 4: just be appreciated for We have to almost develop in
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 4: our own right instead of be dictated to like this
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 4: is what a man is. But I think that obviously,
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 4: you know, the first place everybody talks about is the
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 4: family court system. That's a huge that that needs so
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 4: much reform. But also you know, the social scene, the
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 4: dating process, how men and women engage with each other
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 4: and interact, and how it leads to uh, intimacy and
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 4: and you know long term relationships and family.
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 6: Uh.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 4: The fact that you know, men need to be seen
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 4: as you know, more than just an ATM machine and
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 4: a bodyguard. You know, that's kind of that's kind of
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 4: how how we're perceived. And that's not not necessarily something
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 4: that's legislated. That's just how we're socialized to be. And
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 4: so oh, that's why it's not just a men's rights issue,
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 4: it's it's a cultural issue. And that's sure, you know,
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 4: that's kind of what I'm hoping. The way that men
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 4: are portrayed in the media. I mean, men are the
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 4: brunt of every joke, and men are seen as the
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 4: bumbling idiots on sitcoms and things like that.
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: So yeah, those are jo Bill Bill maher on his
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 1: show Forget the name of it, but his real time
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 1: is it what is it called Bill Time, Real Time?
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 3: Real Time? Yeah?
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and his real Time he did a segment on
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: that on father's specifically fathers and the way they're presented
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: in the media around Father's Day. Now, that is something
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: I'm not a big fan of Bill mahar But the
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: point is he's very mainstream, and the fact that he
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: did that, he did a whole thing was that we
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: stop doing this with dad's Like this is obviously we've
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: been talking about this for ten years. But now this
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: is what I mean when I say I'm I'm optimistic,
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm hopeful, because it is it is breaking into
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 1: the mainstream you know, in whatever way it must, because
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: it's getting to the point where the legacy media can't
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: ignore what we're talking about. Like, you know, they have
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: their methods of trying to dismiss it. They'll say, you know,
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: we have like there's probably feds watching this show right
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: now that are keeping tabs on us because we have
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: been put on lists you know, from like the CIA
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: and stuff because they don't like the message, which is essentially,
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: you know, trying to strengthen men, to put them in
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 1: their rightful place in society. And I know the reason
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: why the government doesn't want that because the you know,
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: a family with a strong father in its center is
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: like there's a nightmare for the government because now the
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: government doesn't can't just you know, redistribute wealth to women. Right,
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: This is why women vote for more government because it's
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: like a way of getting around needing to go to
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: a man for it, and said, they just go to
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: big daddy government, and big daddy government takes money from
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: us and gives it to them.
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 3: So if there are.
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: But women who are in marriages with men and their stable,
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: they tend to vote for small government too, because now
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: they see that their bottom line is being affected by
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: things like taxation in the welfare state, right, So I
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: think that socially, that's what we are big on. I mean,
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: for me, like the family courts, the child custody, the
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: false allegations, the fatherlessness, because like it's producing to dysfunctional.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 3: Children which are going out in the world. And I
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 3: think a lot. You did a video. I think it's
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 3: called Daddy Issues or something. It was one of your
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 3: what I.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 5: Just released that this morning.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I saw it. I want.
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you did one on daddy issues, which I appreciate
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: because I bet if you go around and talk to
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: enough people, I know I didn't. I don't know if
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: I finished that one. I think I almost did, but
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: then I had to stop through the show because I
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: was running errands and I was like, I'm gonna listen
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: to some more of his videos.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 3: Before the show to get like boned up.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: But I appreciate that you did that because I think
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: that it's worth people have to see that fathers matter,
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: and so like if you take them out, there are
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: effects and where everyone wants to talk about everything else
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: except that. And the other thing is is that when
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: they do talk about fathers, and this is something that
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: annoys me because it always comes from the conservatives, right,
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: the quote unquote conservatives.
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 3: They're not really conservative.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: They just blame men for not being present without understanding
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 1: that most of the time women are excluding them from
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: their children.
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 3: It's not you know, and and they have the state to.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: Do that, like they like they have the backing of
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: the state to make sure because what was the condition,
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: you know, Lyndon Johnson, the guy who so Lyndon Johnson
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: was one of the presidents from like the sixties, and
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 1: he put forward the Great Society, which was essentially the
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: start of the welfare state, And there was one condition.
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: It was like, we will give you money as long
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: as there is not a man in the home, and
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: that was the that was what getting welfare was contingent on.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: Women were incentivized to basically keep their fathers away from
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: their children so you can get free money from the government.
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: And that is and that's been going on since the sixties.
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: So now we're like three generations in so you have
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: multiple generations of people who don't know their fathers, So like,
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: what are you gonna what kind of society are you
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: gonna get from that?
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 3: Which is why for me, that's like the.
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: Most important thing is restoring men to the rightful place
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: in the home. And for conservatives to just shit. What
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: they usually do is they just shame men and say, well,
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: you need to take your responsibility and be adabt. It's like,
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: but these women are choosing men who have no intention
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: of sticking around like that. Like that's like literally, women
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: are the gatekeepers of reproduction. They decide whether or not
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: they're gonna get pregnant and have a baby.
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 3: They have all the tools, they have all the resources.
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: They got abortion, they got abandonment, they got adoption, they
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: got all these other things, and they choose to keep
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: the baby despite the fact that they hooked up with
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: a dude that's not going to stick around and you
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 1: can't shame that man and to being like to sticking around.
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: She chose poorly, you know what I mean. Like there
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: are fit fathers and there are unfit fathers. If these
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: women choose unfit men to be fathers, like this just
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: happened to fresh and fit. I think it was Walter,
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 1: Uh yeah, you know about that, right, not Myron, but
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: the other guy, right, He he like knocked up some
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: chick and she was like, oh, I don't believe in
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: abortion because of my religion, which is weird because she
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: fucked the guy and got pregnant by him, But okay, whatever.
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 3: I guess that's not your religion.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: But this part is and you know, now he's basically
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: on the hook as per the Kanye song, you know,
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: eighteen years eighteen years. So, but the truth is that
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: that wasn't.
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 3: The kind of guy that was gonna stick around anyway.
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: And this is what I'm saying, like, when when women
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: reward a certain kind of man with sex, other men
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: will look at that and say, I'm gonna try and
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: be more like that guy, because that's the guy that
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: women reward incentivized bad behavior, You're gonna get more bad.
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 4: Behaviortually blaming the individual men for systemic issues.
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, partly, yes, like the welfare state exactly.
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 3: And it's there.
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: The only solution that people in the mainstream have is
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: to just keep blaming men in the hope that they're
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: going to like get in line. And the truth is
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: that men are walking away. And I think it's a
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 1: smart idea because they at some point they got to say, well,
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: maybe women should be helping with this problem too, you know,
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: like and in some capacity and I think it at
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: least begins with them making smart choices, or at least
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: saying I don't really know. I need help, you know,
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: like being able to say I don't have it all
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: figured out, any help.
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 3: And I think that men want that.
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 1: Too, like men, the Zoomers, you know, Zoomer men have
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 1: swung pretty far right in terms of their beliefs, but
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: they're still struggling to understand their masculinity because they're growing
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: up in a feminized society. I mean, like it just
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 1: is right from school, all through our media, through everything
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 1: that we see around us. What is valued, what is prized,
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: what is celebrated? Womanhood and all of its forms, or
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: if you want to like bring in like the sort
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 1: of expanded definition of gender, it's every gender except men,
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: like every other gender, non binaries, quasi genders, demy genders,
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: et cetera, all of that, but not men. Men are
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: the only ones excluded in every single instance. So what
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: are men supposed to do?
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 5: Right? Exactly?
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 4: And even when we talk about all the different genders
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 4: a woman, you know, there's so much confusion about what
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 4: a woman is, but everyone can tell you what a
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 4: real man is.
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true, but also if.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 3: A man.
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: If being a man is such a bad thing, is
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: it any wonder that there are so many men that
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: are just saying I'm going to live as a woman,
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: because I think that's another thing that happens right Like
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 1: they're like, well, I know. I actually had him on
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 1: as a fireside check. Yes, Unfortunately he asked me to
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: protect his identity, so we had to take down his video.
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 1: But he explicitly said, I'm he's gone through the transsurgery
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: because he wanted to live as a woman, because he
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: figured that living as a woman would be better.
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 1: I don't know how that worked out for him, probably
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: not well because he lives in Germany. But the fact
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: is is that the desire to do that should should
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: be something we should be like thinking about.
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 3: Granted that's an extreme example. Most guys aren't going to
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 3: do that, but the.
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: Fact that a guy got to the point where he
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: was so ashamed about what he was so he said,
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: if I live as a woman, my life will be
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: better even if I'm not really a woman, if I
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: just look like a woman.
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 3: And he's actually told me that.
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 1: People, you know, if they don't know that he's a man,
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: they treat him differently.
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 3: And then there was the opposite. Do you know about
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 3: Nora Vincent.
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 5: I was just about to bring that up out.
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 3: Oh okay, okay, yeah yeah, self.
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 5: Made, self made man of course, yes.
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes this is and this again like this is
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: something that people should know, but this is not the
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 1: narratives that most people have access to.
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 3: They don't understand that.
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: You know, it's it's not what you think it is
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 1: to walk a mile in a man shoes.
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 5: Well that's the.
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 4: Thing is like you know, occasionally, you know, you brought
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 4: up like stand up comedians and stuff, right like Chris
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 4: Rock for example, will have a thing like only women,
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 4: children and dogs are loved unconditionally, but a man has
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 4: only loved under the condition he provides. And my point
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 4: is it's like people feel what's going on, but when
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 4: you or you know, they might laugh at a joke
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 4: here or there, see a little piece of evidence you
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 4: know of you know, the inequality. But what ends up
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 4: happening is when you tie all the pieces together. And
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 4: that's kind of what I try to do on my
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 4: channel is you know, construct a you know, a narrative
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 4: of all these questions and it's like, okay, this is
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 4: injustice and this is a problem, and this is a problem.
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 4: But when you stitch it all together and it's problem
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 4: after problem after problem, and everything is a double standard
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 4: and it always benefits women, at what point do you
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 4: start to realize that this is you know, this is
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 4: a a prejudice against men, This is a systemic problem.
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 4: This is not just men, not you know, manning up.
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 4: There's something going on. There is an agenda, there is,
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 4: And that's what I'm trying to do is basically build
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 4: a case so people can realize that, Okay, we actually
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 4: have to take this seriously because it is we are
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 4: not going to negotiate our way out of this, and
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 4: we are not going to let this problem solve itself.
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well it is. It is a problem. And
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 1: I well, like I said, though, I do think that
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 1: things are changing. I think the conversation is shifting in
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: a big way, and I'm I'm here for it. I'm
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 1: glad because I think that, like I said, our talking points.
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 1: You know, ten years ago when I started this, if
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: I like came up to someone, I remember I was
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: on a flight to with the International Conference of Men's
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 1: Issues in twenty sixteen, I think, and it was in England,
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: and so it was my first time in the UK,
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: and I flew and I was getting onto customs in
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: the UK, and you know, when you go into customs,
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: they ask you all these questions about why you're entering
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: their country.
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 3: And so the woman that customs asked me.
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 1: What I was there for, and I told her I'm
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 1: there for a conference, and she said, what's the conference about,
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: you know, squizzing me and I said, oh, it's the
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 1: International Conference on Men's Issues, and she immediately scoffed and
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: said men's issues?
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 3: What issues the men have?
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 1: And I was like, well, you'd be surprised, you know.
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: But of course at the time I didn't expect her
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: to be sympathetic. But nowadays, if somebody asked me what
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 1: I do, which happened to me the other day. I
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 1: went to go pick up a new car and the
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: guy was driving me in the uber to North Carolina
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 1: because I had to go there to pick it up,
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: and he asked me what I do, and I said,
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: I run a podcast. And he asked me what it's about,
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 1: and I told him and he immediately was like, oh,
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 1: I have stories for you, and he told me a
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 1: bunch of stories and he said that, you know, he
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 1: had all these issues with feminism and where we're at
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: now in our culture. And he was an old guy.
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: He was like in his seventies, you know. But he
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: so it wasn't like he wasn't like one of these
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: what you'd expect from from somebody of that age that
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 1: they they kind of like have their values that comes
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: from their generation and they never let them go.
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 3: He's actually like had a lot to say about it.
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 1: And part of it is because he has a bunch
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 1: of sons and he's worried about his sons and his grandsons. So,
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 1: you know, I think the conversation is shifting in a
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: big way.
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 4: I see that as well, and I agree with you,
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 4: and I am hopeful. The one thing that I would
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 4: like to try to get people to wake up to, though,
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 4: is that feminism is not the only problem that we're
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 4: dealing with.
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 5: You Do you agree with that? Do you see that?
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 3: I do?
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 1: But I think, what, Okay, here's the thing though, in
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: my opinion, I think it depends on how you define feminism.
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 3: I think that.
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: Our whole society is feminist. It's just how much so
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 1: like the thing that at the core of what feminism
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 1: is is this idea that men have throughout history oppressed
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 1: women at the expense of women and to the benefit
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: of themselves. And anyone who believes that is basically a
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: feminist even and so like, even when you said, you know,
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 1: I don't want to I think you said something like,
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: and I don't want to misrepresent you, so correct me
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, But I think you said something like,
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 1: I don't want to necessarily return to patriarchy. Is that
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 1: Is that something that you said or something like that.
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 5: I think that I think that there, Yeah, because.
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 4: In a way, what ends up happening is if the
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 4: man is expected to be the leader, then it's just
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 4: going to end up with more blaming men. Like in
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 4: other words, if you don't get a good outcome, then
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 4: it's your fault because you weren't a good leader, or
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 4: you know what I mean.
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 3: Is that what you mean? Yeah? Is that what you
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 3: mean by patriarchy then.
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 4: In a way, because I think I think patriarchy is
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 4: the idea of the you know, man being the head
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 4: of the household. The man has to be the leader
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 4: and man has to be in charge. I just think
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 4: that that, I guess. More so, it's like the mass
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 4: andry is the issue, and feminists, you know, there's there's
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 4: modern mass andry, which is feminism, and there's traditional massadry,
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 4: which is chivalry.
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 5: I think that, you.
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: Know, feminism is exploiting chivalry though, well, I mean feminism
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 1: is women appealing to men, to men to get them
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 1: what they want. Like if feminists women can't do anything
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 1: without men, like women, like women couldn't run society without
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 1: men allowing it, right, or even helping them. So like
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: when women got the vote, it was men that gave
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 1: it to them, right, It was actually mostly women that
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: were against it because they didn't want women to be
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 1: drafted into war.
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 3: So anytime, what I'm.
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 1: Saying is, even now, in this society that seems to
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 1: be run by women, it's only doing that because men
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 1: are allowing it. If men tomorrow decided that women were
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 1: not going to have power anymore, they wouldn't have it
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: and there wouldn't be anything they could do about it.
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 5: Great point.
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 4: And now, so building on that premise, would feminism have
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 4: been a movement that's gained any traction without the help of.
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 3: Men, No, it wouldn't.
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 1: So, But but I mean that doesn't mean that we
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: don't live in the feminist framework because the lie is
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: that patriarchy would harm be harmful to women. It isn't
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 1: because patriarchy is like we still live in that model
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 1: because ultimately men even now are still responsible, they just
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 1: don't have any authority. So they have responsibility, but no
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: authority at least not in the in the small scale,
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: and women have a law the authority and no responsibility,
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 1: which is why they're never accountable for anything, but they
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 1: can do whatever they want.
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 4: I understand that I'm saying that that if men weren't
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 4: chivalrous or ginocentric, how would they have enabled finism that
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 4: I think that that's.
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: Kind well, yeah, I think that the way it, I know,
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 1: I see what you're saying. I don't disagree, And I
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: think I think that ginocentrism and feminism are like, well,
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 1: it's like you said, two sides at the same coin,
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 1: like they work together, one does not work without the other. Right,
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 1: So you can't feminism only exists because men allow it.
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 1: But ginocentrism is what makes men do that, where they're like, well,
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 1: we should be doing this for the women, right, whereas
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: maybe before like you know what it meant to be
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 1: chivalrius was more about like you're like being.
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 3: A samurai in Japan.
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 1: You know, there was like a code and all these
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 1: these other things, but there was great honor in doing that.
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 1: You know, Today it's just like how you treat women.
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: It's not and that's it, and that's just that's just
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 1: a small sliver of what it really used to mean.
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 1: But I mean, none of those things are demanded of
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 1: us anymore.
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 4: So, But but don't we have a chivalrous family court system?
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 4: I mean, obviously it's based on you know, it's it's
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 4: based on serving the women or catering to the women's
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 4: needs or things like that.
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 1: So I think that, well, you could say that they
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: just serve themselves because they make a lot of money
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 1: doing that, right, and they just use women as the tool,
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 1: like using female victimhood to make money. Is sort of
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 1: like I think that's that's the the family courts, that's
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: feminism itself.
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 3: That's like everything else that's come from it.
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: They make They have jobs, like as long as women
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 1: are seen as in need, there's.
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 3: People have job security.
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 1: They get their pensions, they get their tenure, they get
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 1: their you know, their NGOs whatever it is. So yeah,
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 1: you could I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: that maybe we're just talking past each other a little bit.
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 4: Well, I mean it obviously it's confusing, there's a lot
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 4: of nuance. But I think what it comes down to
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 4: is if our goal is not equality in as many
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 4: aspects as we can try to, you know, shoot for
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 4: or aim for, I think that that you know what
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 4: I mean, Like like, if the pendulum swings too far
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 4: in one direction, there's an inequality. If it swings too
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 4: far in the other direction, there's an inequality. There's always
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 4: going to be an injustice. So do we want a
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 4: society of double standards or do we want to live
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 4: in a society of equality?
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 5: Or is that even possible? Can we achieve that?
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 3: Well? Okay, so equality and justice I think are different. Justice.
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 1: I'm all for equality. I don't think it's possible. I
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 1: think that's a pipe dream. But justice, yes, would definitely
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 1: need that.
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, obviously people say that men and women
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 4: are not equal because we're not the same, and that's
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 4: not that doesn't make any sense because you know, note
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 4: two people are the same.
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 5: But we should have equal rights under the law, correct people.
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 3: That would be justice. That's what I'm saying it's different. Yes,
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 3: I'm I agree with justice.
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 1: I think that we should be treated the same one
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 1: of the law, for sure, But that's I don't But
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: the word equality is like.
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 4: I think it's I'm not saying that that women should
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 4: be competing in men's sports obviously.
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 3: No, no, I know you're not saying that.
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 1: But I think it's just using the word equality in
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 1: any context is slippery because it's it just isn't applicable.
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 1: We're just not like no too, I'm not equal to
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 1: myself on any given day of the week or any
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 1: time of the day. So what I mean is like
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 1: I justice one hundred percent, Like we should be treated
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 1: the same under law, absolutely, But I.
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 3: Don't think that's the same as equality.
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 1: Is all.
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 3: I'm saying like that because when you get.
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 1: Into this, you get into this weeds where people start
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: talking about equality and then it turns into a conversation, well,
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 1: I don't. I don't believe in equity. I believe in equality,
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 1: and like equity is different. It's like, but neither of
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 1: those are right, like we just justice is it? Like
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 1: that's because otherwise you if anyone starts concerning themselves with
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 1: any kind of equality, then you run into a problem
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 1: where you're measuring it from the wrong starting point. Like
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 1: some people will say, and this is not related to
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: what we're talking about, but some people will say that
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 1: I don't believe in equality of outcome.
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 3: I believe equality of opportunity. And I will say, well.
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 1: But the problem with that is is that if you
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: have to be okay with whatever the outcomes are, but
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: we don't do that.
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 3: What we do is we.
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 1: Look at the outcomes even if we supposedly have a
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 1: quality of opportunity, and say, well, we must not have
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 1: done a quality of opportunity right because the outcomes are different.
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 1: It's like no, because you're starting from a bad premise,
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: Like there is no equality of opportunity. There's just like
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 1: the removal of obstacles that are you know, just sort
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: of like unnecessary like systemic obstacles, like things like you know,
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 1: should should men. Because there's another thing is that I'm
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: not really sure if it's okay that we try to
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: even everything out. I think we can get like really
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: stuck in analysis paralysis. And what we should be looking
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: at is okay, when it comes to child custody, we
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 1: should just look at it in a case by case
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 1: basis wh the most fit to raise the child instead
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 1: of what we do now is we just tend to
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: favor the woman by default. And then of course what
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: happens is that in order to make their case, women
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 1: will bring a bunch of like, oh he's abusive, Oh
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 1: he's he's done some you know, like sexual things with
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 1: my child. Like they'll they'll do anything. And the goal
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: is ultimately because the incentives, because the family courts and
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 1: all that, will say, well, if you accuse them of
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 1: these things, you can get the child for this much.
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: You can get this much money, and it's designed to
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 1: tear the family apart, and ultimately nobody's asking what is
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 1: the best thing for the child. So I feel like
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: it went a bit of a you know, a bit
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 1: of a rant there, So I apologize.
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 5: You're good when you're cooking, So.
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 3: Okay, well, thank you.
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 1: Anyway, we've been going a little bit long. Let me
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 1: see if we can't like try to bring it home here.
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 1: So what do you what do you want people to
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 1: know about your channel? Like, if they want to go
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: check it out, it's called it's complicated guys of checking
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 1: out on YouTube links.
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 3: In the description of this video, so you can go to.
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: The YouTube channel and your shorts channel as well as
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: your x page or your Twitter.
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm on I'm on Twitter.
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 4: I have a Rumble page, but I haven't really updated
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 4: or anything like that. I had a TikTok page, but
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 4: for some reason I have been able to update that.
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 5: I think I'm locked out of that account. Uh.
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 4: But I have a Instagram, a Facebook, and obviously my YouTube,
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 4: and I basically am just trying to Uh. What I
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 4: want people to know is that, you know, I talk
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 4: about dating and relationships, but I mean I've done an
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 4: episode called Legally Superior where I talk about, you know, uh,
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 4: the injustice and the laws. I mean I want to
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 4: talk about I want to do a dedicated episode about
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 4: every one of the men's issues that we're that that
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 4: we face, so I could kind of do a deeper
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 4: dive and and that's the thing is, and I'm trying
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 4: I want to show my face more. I'm trying to
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 4: get out there and just kind of get my opinions
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 4: and do more podcasts and then I can educate an
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 4: episode on my channel that I can refer to and say, Okay,
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 4: we want to talk about consent. Well, I've done the work,
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 4: I've talked to people about this, and this is what
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 4: they're saying. And you know, I obviously you know, I
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 4: don't speak for everybody, and not the few people that
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 4: I interview speak for everybody. But at least it gets
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 4: the engagement and the dialogue going. There's a lot of
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 4: very interesting comments on my page that it spark all
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 4: sorts of new ideas, things I've never even thought of before.
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 5: I'm learning, just like just like all of you.
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 4: So this I want it to be a process where
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 4: instead of just being a channel I want I want
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 4: almost my channel is more than a channel.
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 5: I believe it's a movement.
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good way to look at it. Are
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 1: you Are you with anyone? I'm sorry to pry anything
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 1: too personal, but do you have a girlfriend or somebody?
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 6: No?
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 4: No, No, I'm currently not in a relationship. I mean, I'm
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 4: open to things if something falls in my lap, but
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 4: I mean.
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 1: When was the last time you saw someone? Sorry, what
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 1: was the last time you saw someone?
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 4: I had a three year relationship, but it was a
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 4: while ago. But I mean it was a good relationship.
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 4: I mean I didn't necessarily I don't want people to
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 4: think like, oh, I've just had like terrible relationships and
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 4: so now you know, I'm just no.
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 1: I didn't assume. I didn't assume that. I was just
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 1: curious if you were what they thought.
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 3: About what you do? Oh no, do you have any
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 3: you have any friends?
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 4: And I'm just saying, you know, it's funny that a
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 4: lot of people immediately go to who hurt you? Why
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 4: did you create this channel? Like you're just out to
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 4: basically bash whomen Yeah.
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 3: That's just another that's just another way of.
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 1: Like attacking your masculinity. Yes, that's just another way they
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 1: do it, because like you'd be like, well, if you're
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 1: if you're not just putting up with things as they
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 1: are right now, then you're obviously not a real man
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 1: and you must be single. That's what. That's just another
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 1: way they attack your masculinity. Like, I'm married, but I
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 1: don't feel like I need to tell people like, by
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 1: the way, guys, I'm married, so this gives me permission
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 1: to criticize women. No, I'm just going to criticize women
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 1: if I feel like criticizing women, Like I don't have to.
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 1: My wife's way worse than me, Like, you know, she's
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 1: like way way harsher.
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's not even necessarily always directed at women.
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 4: A lot of times it's directed at the culture that
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 4: allows for this to happen.
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but people, you're right.
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 1: But if you just even when you're just saying like, look,
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 1: I'm just talking about the culture, I'm talking about the scene,
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 1: or I'm talking about this activity, people's reaction is to
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 1: go right to the women, like how are you hurting
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 1: women in this way? And this is like they're playing
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: into the ginocentric trap. It's like, immediately, how are women
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 1: affected by this? You know the reason why I say
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 1: that feminism and ginocentrism are like interlinked, like they can't
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 1: even be separated. Charles Foyer. Do you know who Charles
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 1: Foyer is. He's the guy who he's one of those
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 1: French intellectuals. He coined the termeminism and defined it as
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 1: essentially judging a society by how it treats its women.
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 3: So that is that's what we do.
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: That's what like ganocentrism is used for, or how it
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 1: works in tandem with feminism. And that's why I say
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 1: they're not they're not really separable. And when there is
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 1: no such thing as a trad com that is not
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 1: a feminist like they're if they if they believe, if
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: they're espousing the ginocentric shit, then than they are, you know,
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: like Tommy Lauren or any of the Daily Wire people
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 1: or whoever it is. I mean, unless you really get
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 1: red pilled. And usually for men, unfortunately, it does require
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 1: them to have like a terrible experience because a lot
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 1: of guys walk around they think they're immune, that this
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 1: won't happen to them, and then something does happen to them.
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 3: I mean, it didn't, nothing happened to me.
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 1: But like all of the people in my life, my
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 1: closest friends, like they all get married, they think everything's
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 1: going to work out, and I swear like most of
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 1: them in of in horrible divorces with like children that
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 1: they're not able to see. And it's like, how did
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 1: this happen to this many people? You know, because they
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 1: all walked into this thinking everything was going to be fine.
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 4: Why do you think that most of the people who
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 4: are in this space are more like like in it
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 4: for like the entertainment as opposed to you know, having
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 4: the conversations that we're having, Like, like most people who
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 4: are in the matosphere aren't necessarily talking about ginocentrism. They're
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 4: just talking about why do you think they're not kind
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 4: of looking at more of the men's rights issues and
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 4: things like that.
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, the men's right stuff is not sexy.
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 1: It's it's it's not like I think that that the
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: reason because like the whatever, like no shade being thrown here. Okay,
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 1: So I appreciate all these channels for existing because anyone
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 1: who's having the conversation is adding and if you have
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 1: to get your red pill talking points from Andrew Tate
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 1: or Fresh and Fit or whatever, then I guess it's
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 1: as long as they got out there, like whatever. But
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 1: I ultimately it's because what we do is not it
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 1: doesn't it doesn't.
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 3: Create the controversy.
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 1: We're not fighting with people, we're not doing blood sports debates.
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 1: We're not like calling three zero four's hose and kicking
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 1: them off our podcast.
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 1: Like I think that one you mentioned these manuscript figures,
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 1: and one of the ones that I actually appreciate the
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 1: most is Pearl Davis. And I know that you were
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 1: on her her channel, but she but she's the only
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 1: one of these like big name people that sort of
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 1: got their name by hosting controversial talks, you know, and
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 1: for hours at a time with lots of women in
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 1: scantly clad talking about, you know, how much they want
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 1: from their man and how tall he has to be,
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 1: and what they're like, how they are the table and
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 1: all of this. But she was the only one that
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 1: actually reached out and got Paul On and some of
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 1: the people from our channel, like Alison and Karen On
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 1: to talk on her show. And I have a lot
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 1: of respect for that because I think that it's It's
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 1: not like I don't really care about clout, but I
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 1: care that the message gets out, but I do want
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 1: it to get out there via the people who are
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 1: best qualified to talk about it, because like I just saw,
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 1: for example, this last thing, I'll say about it and
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 1: let you talk, and I know that.
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 3: I can go. But I watched as a.
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 1: Guy named oh, I can't remember it saying Warren something
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 1: Warren Smith.
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 3: And he does these normally.
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 1: He does these reactions to debates or conversations and he
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 1: like breaks down the logic of the debates. He kind
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 1: of went viral because he was like talking to one
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 1: of his students about something and it was political, but
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 1: he like does these other things. But then he went
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 1: on the Whatever Podcast and he kind of I wouldn't
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 1: call it an ambush, but he basically because I think
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 1: that what he does is he tries to challenge people's
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 1: ability to, like, you know, explain their position logically and
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 1: make a strong argument. But so he turned on Brian Atliss,
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 1: like I, who hosts the Whatever Podcast, and he pressed
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 1: him on a couple of issues that men face, and
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 1: Brian Atlas wasn't really able to come up with anything strong,
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 1: even though I'm sure he knows that they exist because
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 1: he does that show, but he wasn't ready for that,
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 1: and he came across looking kind of foolish, and it
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 1: was like, you know, if one of us was on there,
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 1: I would have been able to make not only make
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 1: the case, but I think Warren would have understood where
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 1: I was coming from and he would have been able
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 1: to take our side. So like, I think that ultimately,
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 1: the people who make the best arguments are not the
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 1: ones that get front and center. It's the people who
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 1: just make the most noise have the most sizzle on
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 1: their sticks.
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 3: Does that make sense?
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 5: Absolutely?
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 4: And in fact I actually watched that stream where you
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 4: reacted to that, and it was, oh yeah, unstreamed. So
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 4: that's actually I think that's the reason that we got
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 4: in touch to do something together because I really enjoyed
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 4: some of your streams on that. But the other thing is,
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 4: why do you think that we don't see more of
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 4: like like it's always these guys debating the women and
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 4: the feminists. Wouldn't you like to see like, you know,
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 4: a men's rights guy and a red pill guy and
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 4: a make tow guy like you know, with all their
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 4: different prescriptions debating each other, like obviously you know I
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 4: did that.
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 3: Oh I did that. Yeah, because so we did that.
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 1: In twenty nineteen, we had International Conference on Men's Issues.
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 3: It was a live thing, like everybody could go to it.
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 3: A lot of people were there.
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 1: It was a big event in Chicago Rosemont when I
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 1: still lived in Chicago, and we were organ it was
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 1: we were the ones A Honey Badger's organized the event
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 1: that year. Normally we have different MRAs do do it.
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 1: I think this year they're trying to do something in Australia,
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 1: but I don't really know the details on that yet.
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 1: And we were coming up with ideas for event, and
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 1: I said we should have an event called a migtaw
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 1: a pua because they were called PUA's at the time,
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 1: not red pillars. A migtow pua and an MRA walk
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 1: into a bar. And so what we did was he
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 1: had three guys, a migtaw, a pua, and an MRA.
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 1: So it was I don't remember the pua guy's name,
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 1: and I don't mean any disrespect, but he was just
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 1: there selling his you know, class or whatever. But there
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 1: was that guy, I think his name was Charming Man
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: or something, I don't know. And then there was Paul
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 1: Elam who was the MRA guy, and Terrence Pop who
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 1: was the migtile guy. And Terrence Pop if you don't
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 1: know who he is, he's fantastic. He's like a vet,
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 1: you know, really cool dude. PTSD had a terrible experience
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 1: and all three of them just sat down and they
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 1: debate each other on the ideas and it worked out.
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 1: It was even an inceel chimed in because he was
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 1: in the audience, and it became a conversation that went
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 1: four ways.
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 5: Yeah, for a.
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 4: While, I think, well, I would love to see more
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 4: of that because I think that, you know, because there's
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 4: so many different prescriptions, some people need to be challenged
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 4: on their ideas because we're all trying to figure out
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 4: the best path ahead.
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we have to be open to like, there
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 1: are gonna be people with lots of different views. That's
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 1: why I think that that was a good panel, because
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 1: you're gonna have you know.
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 3: People coming from different places. You know.
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 1: The last time I did a fireside chat, guess, I
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 1: had this woman on Aaron.
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 3: She has a channel called Far from Eden. I think
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 3: I know, and oh you know these people.
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I got to talk to her and she has,
• 1:47:04
  Speaker 1: you know, a very different perspective, but I love her
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 1: perspective because we need we definitely need more women to
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 1: be in this space and being very vocal, which is
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 1: why I support HBr even though I'm not you know,
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 1: I have an x Y chromazone.
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 4: But at the end of the day, it's all about
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 4: your place and your ideas well.
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 3: They these women couldn't run this thing. I have to
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 3: do it.
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 1: They needed a man to run the producing. So but anyway,
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 1: do you have any final thoughts or.
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 3: Questions for me?
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 4: Just I would just love to be able to, you know,
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 4: get spread this message, you know, have more people discover
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 4: my work. I mean, obviously there's a lot of people
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 4: who are familiar with my work, they're just not familiar
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 4: with me personally. A lot of times I'll see you know,
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 4: shorts and clips, you know, posted on other platforms, and
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 4: I'm not necessarily given credit for it. So I just
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 4: hope more people will just kind of like reference me
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 4: or shut me out and share my work and things
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 4: like that, so at least we can. I think it's
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 4: a great way to kind of pull people into these
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 4: ideas because, like you said, it's not always sexy to
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 4: watch somebody you know on a podcast, but if I'm
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 4: interviewing people on the street, it's just very it's quick,
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 4: it's dynamic. It's a good way to just you know,
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 4: get the conversation started.
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I think that what you're doing is really
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 1: good because you are getting you're out there and then
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 1: those men on the street. There's a lot of people
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 1: that do it, but I think you're doing it really
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 1: well because you are bringing this other dimension in a
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 1: lot of times guys just like what's your body count?
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 1: You know, so this is like way more involved. And
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 1: so have you seen a lot of growth, like on
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 1: your channel, is it growing?
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 5: Yes? And no, it goes through different periods.
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 4: Like there was one point where like when people started
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 4: reacting to my stuff, it blew up very quickly.
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 5: But then I don't know.
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 4: It's like I don't know if shadow banding is a thing,
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 4: but like sometimes I wonder.
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 3: It totally is.
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah, but yeah, you know, and and it's weird.
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 4: It's like sometimes I'll post a piece of content and
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 4: then someone else will react to it and it'll get
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 4: way more views, or you know where somebody will repost
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 4: a clip and it's the exact same piece of content
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 4: and it'll get ten million views. But I've never gotten
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 4: anything that's gotten that high, even on my own channel,
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 4: which is very weird. So I don't know what's going
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 4: on with the algorithm, but I just feel like, as
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 4: any creator, just got to be consistent and just hopefully
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 4: you know that that it will just eventually catch on.
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 6: Mm hmm.
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I think that. I think you're doing really
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 1: good work. I hope you keep at it. I think
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 1: that you are probably because you're bringing up like actual issues.
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 1: That's that's the thing that I think is the main
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 1: difference is that people who are really trying to address
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 1: like the real issues.
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 3: And they're bringing them up.
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 1: They tend to struggle more than the people who are
• 1:49:45
  Speaker 1: just sort of and I'm not blaming them for that,
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 1: because like, you know, you get chase that hustle or whatever.
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 1: But like the guys that are just like gonna put
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 1: hot chicks on a panel and they put them in
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 1: the thumbnail and they got their tongues out and they're
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 1: you know, and then they're cleavage out. They're gonna just
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 1: get more hits. And it doesn't even matter what the
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 1: substance of the content is. But there could be like
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 1: a bit of an overlap because I know Andrew Wilson,
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 1: who he has been on whatever podcast multiple times and
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 1: he built his own brand off of it, I think,
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 1: and I don't think that his brand is like the
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 1: same content, but like one was used to grow the other,
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 1: you know, like a cross pollination.
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 5: It's interesting.
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 4: I've asked the question, why is it that the men's
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 4: movement has to be entertainment to get traction, but the
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 4: women's movement didn't have to be entertaining to get traction.
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 5: Have you noticed that?
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes I have noticed that.
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 4: And one more thing also, one other reason also is
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 4: is I kind of feel like some people can't be
• 1:50:44
  Speaker 4: told these things, they can only be shown. So when
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 4: I'm actually showing the reactions to people being challenged in
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 4: real time with these topics, that says a lot more
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 4: than just coming out and just stating.
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 5: What the situation is.
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 1: In my opinionolute you know, when people see it, it
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 1: definitely sticks in their mind more. We're visual creatures for sure.
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 1: All Right, I got another rumble ran from Novafan twenty one.
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 1: He gives us a dollar and says, at it's complicated.
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 1: I've seen people who claim to be on our side
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 1: but then claim channels like yours don't represent what a
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 1: real woman or what the average woman thinks.
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 3: What is your response to them?
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 5: Say that one more time because I kind of missed that.
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 3: Okay, I'll read it again.
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 1: I've seen people who claim to be on our side
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 1: but then claim that channels like yours don't represent what
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 1: a real woman or what the average woman thinks. What
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 1: is your response to them?
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 5: They're probably virtue signaling, I would suppose. I don't know.
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 5: I mean I think that a lot of it.
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 1: Well, they're I think they're trying to protect women still,
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 1: like they look at the women who are because like
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, you're in Vegas, so you are going to
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 1: get a certain kind of person, but you are looking
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 1: for different kinds.
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 3: Of people in space.
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 1: But I mean, like if you're out late at night
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 1: and women have just come back from a party or
• 1:52:05
  Speaker 1: like a bachelorette thing or whatever, and you're interviewing them,
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 1: those are like, those are people being what's the word authentic?
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you don't really think they're being fake
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 1: or playing it up for the camera.
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 4: Well, I think a lot of times, you know, I'll
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 4: have a conversation with somebody and it seems like okay,
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 4: you know, they really get it, and then they go
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 4: off and they just never give it a second thought,
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 4: you know what I mean. But yeah, there are a
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 4: couple of times where I've interviewed some people and they
• 1:52:35
  Speaker 4: have just come across so poorly, and I'm thinking to myself, like,
• 1:52:40
  Speaker 4: this is the Internet, like they're on the internet forever there,
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 4: or they just get roasted so much in the comments.
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 4: It's like, how could you not learn something from your
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 4: appearance on this show?
• 1:52:51
  Speaker 5: But some people just double down and just say, hey,
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 5: f the haters, and you know, this is what I believe.
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 1: And yeah, you so attention is attention. Yeah, so if
• 1:53:00
  Speaker 1: they get it right, all right, So yeah, that's it,
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 1: I think, thank you so much. Would you be willing
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 1: to come back on again sometime, Yeah of course. Okay, cool,
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 1: And we just so you guys know, we are planning
• 1:53:14
  Speaker 1: to have another get together another like meetups. So like
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 1: COVID kind of killed meetups for a little while, but
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 1: now that everyone's coming out of the darkness, we're gonna
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 1: be doing another meetup this year. In the plan is
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 1: September Calgary, Alberta. So hope you have your passport if
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 1: you're in America. But like, we will get more details later,
• 1:53:37
  Speaker 1: but it's going to be a badger meetup. And Alison
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 1: has some plans, some little like talks and presentations, so
• 1:53:46
  Speaker 1: we should be be on to look out for that.
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 3: So all right, Jonathan, thank you so much. Guys.
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 1: Links to his stuff is in the description It's complicated channel.
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 3: It's great check it out.
• 1:53:59
  Speaker 1: Lots of cool video on there, and thanks guys for
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 1: coming on the show. If you guys liked this video,
• 1:54:04
  Speaker 1: please hit like subscribe if you're not already subscribe to
• 1:54:06
  Speaker 1: the belfidifications, leave as a comment. Well let us know
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 1: you guys think about what we discussed on the show
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 1: today and please please please share this video because Sherry
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 1: is caring.
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 3: Thank you guys so much for coming on today's episode
• 1:54:16
  Speaker 1: Of The Fireside Chat, and we'll talk to you guys
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 1: in the next one.