Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #74 The Mark of the Beast

Transcript

#74 The Mark of the Beast · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

• 0:10
  SPEAKER_03: When the trumpet of the Lord shall sound and time shall be no more,
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  SPEAKER_03: and the morning breaks eternal,
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  SPEAKER_03: bright and fair,
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  SPEAKER_03: when the saved on earth shall gather over on the other shore,
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  SPEAKER_03: and the road is called up yonder,
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  SPEAKER_03: I'll be there.
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  SPEAKER_03: When the road is called up yonder, when the road...
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  SPEAKER_03: Hey everyone, Tim Wright here along with John Burgess and Terry Summers.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_03: We are back.
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  Apparently the rapture didn't happen,
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  or at least it didn't happen before we recorded this.
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  SPEAKER_01: It could happen before it comes out.
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  We're talking about the second coming of Jesus and some of the
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  misunderstandings
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  SPEAKER_01: around the second coming of Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we're using this topic for a couple reasons.
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  SPEAKER_01: One, we want to keep reminding ourselves about the character of God.
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  And if we get the character of God wrong,
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  then all of our other theology goes off the rails.
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  And we also want to talk about how important it is to read the
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  Bible the way it
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  SPEAKER_01: wants to be read,
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  SPEAKER_01: to not impose a 21st century mindset onto ancient readers,
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  SPEAKER_01: but to understand the ancient readers and then ask,
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  SPEAKER_01: what does it mean for us?
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  SPEAKER_01: which,
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  SPEAKER_01: if we are people who are eager to learn and follow Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_01: will mean that from time to time,
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  we do find ourselves stretched with maybe ideas that we hadn't
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  had before.
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  SPEAKER_01: And John,
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  SPEAKER_01: we were talking a little bit about that just before we came on the air,
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  and I thought it would be good to just start there before we
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  dive into the mark of
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  SPEAKER_01: the beast.
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  SPEAKER_01: So John, just tell us a little bit what you were talking about.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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  this falls under the category of we should have a podcast
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  that's just the things
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  SPEAKER_00: that we say between recording podcasts because there's good stuff there.
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  SPEAKER_00: So sorry for all those that are listening that are missing that.
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  SPEAKER_00: But one of the things that I thought was super interesting,
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  SPEAKER_00: especially if you're a returning listener to the podcast,
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  SPEAKER_00: is oftentimes...
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  we're challenging sort of long-held beliefs or understandings
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  about certain parts of Scripture.
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  SPEAKER_00: And through the lens of the things that Tim just said,
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  SPEAKER_00: we're learning different things about that.
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  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that I think is so important is that your faith is
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  undergirded in such a way that changing long-held beliefs about
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  things in Scripture
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  SPEAKER_00: don't shake you to the core.
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  That your faith is resting on Jesus,
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  Tim would say,
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  and not so much on religion.
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  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully that is getting picked up by people as they listen to us.
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  SPEAKER_00: And probably worthy of its own podcast, Tim.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I don't want us to downplay at all the kind of fear,
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  anxiety that some people can experience when you begin to hear
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  interpretations of
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  SPEAKER_01: Scripture that you've not heard before.
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  In many churches,
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  it's not okay to have doubts,
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  and it's not okay to ask questions.
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  SPEAKER_01: And when you start to ask questions or when you have doubts or we say,
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  SPEAKER_01: this doesn't really make sense.
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  SPEAKER_01: In some churches, you sort of get uninvited.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: But look at what Jesus did.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  the whole ministry of Jesus was based on challenging
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  preconceived ideas of the Old
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  SPEAKER_01: Testament or misunderstandings of the Old Testament.
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  SPEAKER_01: Jesus was constantly asking us to rethink things and to ask questions.
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  SPEAKER_01: And certainly as we grow in our faith,
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  we should at least be open to – this doesn't mean we have to
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  agree with everything.
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  You can listen to what we say here and just say,
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  that's just a bunch of hogwash.
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  SPEAKER_01: Great.
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  SPEAKER_01: But at least are we listening to something?
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  SPEAKER_01: And we're in – I'm going to get political for just a moment.
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  But think about people's politics right now,
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  how invested so many people are in their politics –
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  And if you have a particular political view and somebody quotes
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  scripture at you
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  SPEAKER_01: that challenges that view,
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  SPEAKER_01: how absolutely discombobulated you become.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because you think,
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  SPEAKER_01: wait,
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  SPEAKER_01: I voted for this person or I voted for that person,
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  SPEAKER_01: and yet you're saying that person's politics doesn't align with Jesus.
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  Well,
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  then you've got to be wrong because I can't have made the wrong
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  political decision.
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  Our whole world gets turned upside down because we've sort of
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  lost the ability...
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  SPEAKER_01: to think critically, to think with curiosity.
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  SPEAKER_01: We live in algorithms that reinforce everything we believe.
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  SPEAKER_01: And again, when we do that kind of stuff, we just turn inward.
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  SPEAKER_01: We start making enemies rather than saying,
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  SPEAKER_01: okay,
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  SPEAKER_01: spirit,
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  SPEAKER_01: spirit of God,
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  SPEAKER_01: the living God,
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  SPEAKER_01: and not the dead God,
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  SPEAKER_01: spirit of living God,
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  SPEAKER_01: fall afresh on us.
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  SPEAKER_01: Is there something new I need to hear today?
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think what we want to champion here is
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  SPEAKER_01: is a God who is always and only gracious.
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  SPEAKER_01: And if that God is not a part of our discussion,
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  SPEAKER_01: then we've got the wrong God we're talking about.
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  SPEAKER_01: That that view of God changes all of our theology.
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  SPEAKER_01: And secondly, we want to look at the Bible as the Bible wants to be read.
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  And thirdly,
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  I think we want to remember that we don't worship the Bible,
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  we worship Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_01: We are not people of a book.
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  SPEAKER_01: We are people of a living Savior.
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  Those are kind of the three things that become our filters on
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  this podcast for
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  SPEAKER_01: everything that we talk about.
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  And then that will challenge,
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  I think,
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  some of the things that I grew up with,
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  certainly.
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  SPEAKER_01: I know what I did for Terry coming out of a Southern Baptist background.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we have no idea what John believes.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And just one final thing that you guys responded to that.
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  SPEAKER_01: Ultimately,
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  it's God's love through Jesus and through his death and
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  resurrection that saves us,
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  SPEAKER_01: not our theology or understanding of the Bible.
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  SPEAKER_01: So that gives us the freedom to really just come with eyes wide open.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Say, God, what are you up to in Scripture?
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  SPEAKER_01: Because my salvation isn't dependent on what I believe.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's dependent on what Jesus did for me.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I can get my theology wrong.
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  SPEAKER_01: I can get it right.
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  SPEAKER_01: There may be better ways of understanding it than others.
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  SPEAKER_01: In Jesus,
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  I'm free to just really go for it and dive in and ask all the
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  questions I want
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  SPEAKER_01: because those questions,
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  SPEAKER_01: I've been wired to ask questions.
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  SPEAKER_01: I've been wired for curiosity and I've been saved by the cross.
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  SPEAKER_01: So it gives us a lot of freedom.
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  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead, John.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that that is worthy of its own podcast, and I really do.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think this idea,
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  and it's so in line with the God of grace that we often talk
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  about here in this
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  SPEAKER_00: podcast,
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  SPEAKER_00: this idea that Jesus has done all the work,
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  and my understanding and my own personal misunderstanding of
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  theology is not the
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  SPEAKER_00: ballgame.
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  SPEAKER_00: The ballgame is what Jesus has already done.
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  and i think if if uh if we understood that better tim and um
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  that point better it
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  would give us more ability to breathe fresh as we look at
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  things that are in the in
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  scripture and and there's stuff in here that's super hard to
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  understand uh even on
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  your best days and that might be okay and then the only other
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  thing i want to add
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  before terry jumps in is i want to say look i i will go a
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  little bit farther than
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  SPEAKER_00: you tim and say in today's age it's just really
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  and it's a complete rarity to hear someone admit that they were
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  wrong about
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  something those seems like we have we do a terrible job of
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  including those things
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  in our daily lexicon and i think that the writing series that
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  you have on stack
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  social right now is is just so fantastic in that it starts with
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  that it starts with
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  you know uh this was this is your your life uh calling uh and
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  your ministry and
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  SPEAKER_00: your career and yet there are things where you were wrong
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  And so I will make sure I find that URL and I will give it to
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  people at the end of
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  SPEAKER_00: this podcast.
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  SPEAKER_00: So they've got.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And, and emphasis on the word I was wrong.
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  SPEAKER_00: And, and humble.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And humble.
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  Hey,
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  can I say,
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  and then I'm going to let Terry talk or do whatever she wants
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  to do.
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  I get done sometimes with these podcasts and I think,
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  man,
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  I was kind of crabby.
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  SPEAKER_01: And, and I will admit that.
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  SPEAKER_01: that having been a pastor for as long as I've been a pastor,
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  SPEAKER_01: having been a follower of Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_01: as long as I've been a follower of Jesus,
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  I do get agitated when I see people use theology to hurt other
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  people and weaponize
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  SPEAKER_01: it to scare people into heaven.
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  And so sometimes I may seem a little crabby because I really do
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  get agitated and angry because
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  SPEAKER_01: that grace is misused to hurt people.
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  And we all know people who have walked away from Christianity
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  because they have
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  been hurt by Christians who have an angry view of God or a
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  judgmental view of God
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  or a view of God that says you don't belong here or you can't
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  belong until you get
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  SPEAKER_01: your act together.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it hacks me off.
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  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes.
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  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes it's hard for me to be gracious.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's not that I don't love those people too.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's just, I don't always appreciate how Jesus is used.
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  So for those of you who listen,
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  sometimes say,
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  man,
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  he's really crabby today.
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  That's probably because I'm thinking of somebody who just said
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  something about Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_01: That was terrible.
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  Terry,
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  I know that you've got,
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  you're going to read the scripture passage today.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I want to set this up by saying when I was a kid,
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  SPEAKER_01: Terry and John, you're far too young to remember this.
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  We didn't have barcodes on food once upon a time where you
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  could just roll your
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  SPEAKER_01: turkey over the scanner and it would tell you how much it costs.
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  SPEAKER_01: When that technology came on board,
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  SPEAKER_01: the big fear among Christians was that that was the mark of the beast.
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  SPEAKER_01: And if we started using that,
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  SPEAKER_01: We were not going to be able to buy or sell anymore.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we were going to be right in the throes of Revelation.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we were getting ready to be thrown into the lake of fire.
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  And so I'm going to have Terry read all about that from the
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  book of Revelation.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we're going to see if it's really true.
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  SPEAKER_02: And Tim, give me the verses again.
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  SPEAKER_02: Would you?
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  SPEAKER_02: I know it's Revelation 13.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: 11 through 18.
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  SPEAKER_02: There you go.
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  SPEAKER_02: 11 through 18.
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  SPEAKER_02: 11 through 18.
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  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_02: Then I saw another beast come up out of the earth.
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  He had two horns like those of a lamb,
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  but he spoke with the voice of a dragon.
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  He exercised all the authority of the first beast and he
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  required all the earth and
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  SPEAKER_02: its people to worship the beast,
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  SPEAKER_02: the first beast,
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  SPEAKER_02: whose fatal wound had been healed.
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  SPEAKER_02: He did astounding miracles,
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  even making fire flash down to earth from the sky while
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  everyone was watching.
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  and with all the miracles he was allowed to perform on behalf
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  of the first beast,
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  SPEAKER_02: he deceived all the people who belonged to this world.
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  He ordered the people to make a great statue of the first beast
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  who was fatally
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  SPEAKER_02: wounded and then came back to life.
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  SPEAKER_02: He was then permitted to give life to this statue so that it could speak.
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  Then the statue of the beast commanded that everyone refusing
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  to worship it must die.
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  SPEAKER_02: He required everyone,
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  SPEAKER_02: small and great,
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  SPEAKER_02: rich and poor,
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  SPEAKER_02: free and slave,
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  SPEAKER_02: to be given a mark on the right hand or on the forehead.
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  SPEAKER_02: And no one could buy or sell anything to
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  without that mark,
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  which was either the name of the beast or the number
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  representing his name.
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  SPEAKER_02: Wisdom is needed here.
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  Let the one with understanding solve the meaning of the number
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  of the beast,
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  SPEAKER_02: for it is the number of a man.
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  SPEAKER_02: His number is six, six, six.
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  SPEAKER_01: Damien from the omen.
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  SPEAKER_01: is the Antichrist.
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  SPEAKER_01: Did you guys ever see those movies?
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  SPEAKER_01: The Omen movies?
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  SPEAKER_02: No.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_01: the Omen movies,
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  SPEAKER_01: just as a side note,
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  to show you how we talked last week about how this particular
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  understanding of the
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  SPEAKER_01: Second Coming
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  SPEAKER_01: is sort of the one that has infiltrated all of culture.
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  SPEAKER_01: Even Hollywood got in the act in the 1970s with a movie called The Omen,
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  SPEAKER_01: which was about the Antichrist.
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  SPEAKER_01: His name was Damian.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it was a horror movie,
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  SPEAKER_01: but it was basically built on this verse about 666 and the Antichrist,
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  SPEAKER_01: whatever the Antichrist is,
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  SPEAKER_01: so on and so forth.
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  SPEAKER_01: So one of the things that we talked about last week
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  SPEAKER_01: is some of the misinterpretation of second coming passages.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the book of Revelation,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I don't know that John,
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  the writer of this revelation actually intended for this to be
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  such a confusing
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  SPEAKER_01: book.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's one of the most misinterpreted books in all of scripture.
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  SPEAKER_01: And there's no way,
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  SPEAKER_01: shape or form,
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: we're going to understand it completely,
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  but we will talk a little bit about how to read it the way it
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  wants to be read.
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  SPEAKER_01: I remember I was,
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  SPEAKER_01: man,
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  SPEAKER_01: I must,
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  SPEAKER_01: I still,
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know if I was in high school or junior high yet,
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  SPEAKER_01: but my cousin Rick said to me,
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  SPEAKER_01: have you ever read the book of Revelation?
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  SPEAKER_01: I said, no, I haven't.
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  SPEAKER_01: He says, it's crazy.
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  SPEAKER_01: You need to read it.
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  And so I got myself the good news translation of the Bible and
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  I read through Revelation.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I got to tell you, it's one of the craziest books I ever read.
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  There are beasts and there are dragons and there are lakes of
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  fire and there are
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  SPEAKER_01: horses and there are beings with faces on all sides of their heads.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's the craziest book you've ever read.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the problem is that there are some who want to take this book and
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  SPEAKER_01: ironically, and translate it or interpret it literally.
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  And I say ironically because how do you interpret a book that's
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  made up of symbols
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  SPEAKER_01: and metaphor and interpret it literally?
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  But what I mean by that is they literally read it as a book
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  about the literal
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  SPEAKER_01: second coming of Jesus.
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  And therefore,
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  the way that they understand that book is through that filter.
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  So they come at the book of Revelation thinking this is about
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  the second coming of Jesus.
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  And so then they look for everything they can to back up that
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  viewpoint rather than
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  SPEAKER_01: asking the question,
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  SPEAKER_01: when the people first read this book,
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  SPEAKER_01: how did they read it?
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  SPEAKER_01: And what was going on?
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  SPEAKER_01: And what does it say?
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  SPEAKER_01: And even though to this day,
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  SPEAKER_01: the best of scholars can't give us all the meanings of Revelation,
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  SPEAKER_01: we can at least get a sense of what the book is about.
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  that can help us sort of lower the second coming of Jesus mania
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  a bit and see this
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  SPEAKER_01: weird,
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  SPEAKER_01: weird book for what it really is,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is a book of hope and encouragement.
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  SPEAKER_01: But we'll talk about that in just a little bit.
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  SPEAKER_01: Terry,
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  SPEAKER_01: you talked a little bit about when you were growing up,
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  SPEAKER_01: you saw that Thief in the Night movie and so on and so forth.
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  Did you have some of those same Mark of the Beast stories that
• 17:15
  I had when I was growing up?
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: I mean, totally.
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  SPEAKER_02: And then...
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  SPEAKER_02: because I am a rule follower.
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  There's that part of me that like will latch onto something
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  that I've been taught
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  SPEAKER_02: and I just kind of hold it maybe preciously.
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  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: and,
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  SPEAKER_02: and then even as,
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  SPEAKER_02: um,
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  SPEAKER_02: even,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: as an adult,
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: a young adult had a lot of things pass back through that sieve,
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: the mark of the beast.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: With like debit cards with,
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: and then even like I've hearkened back to them,
• 17:54
  but I've heard the conversations of the iPhones identifying
• 18:00
  your face and putting
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: your thumb on,
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: you know what I mean?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like there is still conversation in some parts of my world that way.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, when I was growing up, I mentioned the barcodes.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: There was this belief that there was some supercomputer in Belgium.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: So this is before we all had computers.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: A supercomputer in Belgium, and it was actually called the Beast.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_03: Oh.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that that computer was going to end up ruling the world.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, again, part of it is if...
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Your starting point is that this is about the second coming.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: And the symbols are,
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: for the most part,
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: literal,
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: that there will be a real beast or real beasts or men who act beast-like,
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: which is kind of what I think is more to the point.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Everything gets off.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Just like if your starting point is God is angry,
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: then everything that you read in Scripture is about this angry God.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: And you miss the grace.
• 19:08
  If you start with grace,
• 19:10
  then you even understand those times of God's anger and wrath.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: You see those differently.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it's always starting point.
• 19:16
  And the book of Revelation was used by and still is used by a
• 19:21
  lot of people to try
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: to make the case that God has enemies.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: And the good news is, if you're on God's side, you're in.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to reign in heaven.
• 19:35
  And you're going to get to come back at the Battle of
• 19:37
  Armageddon with Jesus.
• 19:41
  And it's going to be a bloodbath,
• 19:42
  but you're going to be on the side of the victors.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then all of those bad people,
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: along with Satan and the beast,
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: they're all going to be thrown into hell.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: And isn't that worth cheering?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll be honest,
• 19:58
  when I first read Hal Lindsey's description of that moment when
• 20:00
  I was a kid,
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: I literally cheered.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: I thought, wow.
• 20:06
  That moment comes when we get to stand with God and defeat all
• 20:10
  of those enemies and
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: see them all punished for who they are.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly,
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Tim,
• 20:17
  I think there's a little bit of that that's compelling because
• 20:22
  we just want to be
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: in the in-group.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: And there's some people that we know in our lives who,
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: frankly,
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: we would be okay if they were not in the in-group.
• 20:31
  That mean neighbor across the way who's always mean to the kids
• 20:34
  that walk by,
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: you're kind of like,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: he might not make it.
• 20:39
  And there's some humanity,
• 20:41
  justice,
• 20:41
  loving humanity that is piqued by that,
• 20:45
  I think.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's our deep-seated need for fairness and justice for ourselves,
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: but not necessarily for other people.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: But I also had a little bit of a different take.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know that I cheered,
• 21:05
  but I did see God as being gracious in the middle of it by
• 21:11
  giving those that didn't
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: get caught up in the rapture another seven years to make their mind up.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: I saw him...
• 21:21
  getting it they got a second chance and i literally i might be
• 21:25
  a little pansy-ish
• 21:26
  but i was like rooting like well you missed the first day but
• 21:30
  don't miss the second
• 21:31
  one right yeah and terry i'm with you 100 on that but now
• 21:39
  looking back at what
• 21:42
  those seven years are according to those who believe in those
• 21:45
  seven years yeah
• 21:48
  Where do you see any gracious God reaching out at all in those
• 21:52
  seven years?
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of that thing.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't get the first time.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: And if this doesn't scare the hell out of you, there's no hope for you.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: But I guess I just kept thinking, they get a second chance.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: They get a second chance.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: Whoever the proverbial they is, you know?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't that kind of what Left Behind series was about?
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: Was about some people anyway who...
• 22:17
  end up becoming christians because of god's wrath being poured
• 22:21
  out right yeah and
• 22:25
  you know look however people come to the kingdom great but i i
• 22:30
  think if you're who
• 22:34
  wants to enter into a marriage where you're scared into
• 22:36
  marrying the person it's
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: not you're not off to a good start
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:40
  Who wants to be in a friendship with someone where you're
• 22:42
  scared into that friendship?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: You're so scared of that person.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: You got to be friends with them.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what, what kind of relationship is that?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: And who wants to live for an eternity,
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: an eternity wondering,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: he was pretty hacked off when I did this.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: Can I really rest now?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: He's pretty quick with the anger.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: And Revelation seems to be filled with that.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's easy to interpret the book of Revelation that way.
• 23:16
  so is is the book of revelation tim describing the the
• 23:21
  indescribable in poetic ways
• 23:24
  sort of like genesis we just finished a big study on genesis
• 23:28
  we're dealing with
• 23:29
  these huge concepts that really are undescribable so we're
• 23:32
  using these metaphors
• 23:33
  and these poetry or when we get to revelations are we just
• 23:36
  talking about something
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: completely different than what a sort of reading on the face would show
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: A couple of comments because this is a great question.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, you can't see this on the screen.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: It says John the Grammarian.
• 23:53
  So John,
• 23:53
  just so we're clear,
• 23:55
  it's the book of Revelation,
• 23:58
  not Revelations.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is not more than one Revelation.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's just one revelation.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: We've said before,
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: when we're studying the Bible,
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: we need to read the Bible as it wants to be read.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that means we need to take seriously the context,
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: when it was written,
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: and the genre of literature that it is.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: And Revelation, along with the book of Daniel,
• 24:29
  is a very specific style or genre of literature called
• 24:35
  apocalyptic literature.
• 24:38
  So we're going to go in the weeds just a little bit,
• 24:40
  but I think this is really important.
• 24:43
  The purpose of apocalyptic literature is to write a letter to
• 24:51
  people who are being
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: persecuted and to use...
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: Symbols and images and metaphors that the persecuted would understand.
• 25:03
  But the persecutors will not understand should they happen to
• 25:07
  get their hands on it.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it's coded.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: So in other words,
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: if you're reading this really weird book as a Christian church,
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: you understand what they're saying.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: And what they're saying are things about the empire.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: In this case, about the Roman Empire.
• 25:28
  But if the Romans would happen to grab that papaya and read it,
• 25:32
  is it papaya?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's what I eat for indigestion.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's the fruit, I think.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: Papyrus, maybe.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: The papyrus says,
• 25:42
  if they grab the scrolls and they start reading all of this
• 25:45
  stuff about beasts and
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: about blood and this and that,
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: they don't know that what you're reading is anti-Roman propaganda.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: If the writers wrote down and said,
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: I want to tell you something,
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: and I want you to hear this clearly.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right now,
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Rome is persecuting you,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: but there's going to come a time when Rome will be no more,
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: and God steps in and saves you.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Romans would know right away that that's anti-Roman propaganda.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: So just as the people,
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: when the book of Daniel was written,
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: it was written in code to people who were suffering under Antiochus IV,
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: the Greek king,
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: and being slaughtered for their faith.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: So
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Roman Christians are being persecuted.
• 26:31
  And so John writes a pastoral letter to them using all of these
• 26:36
  different codes and
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: symbols to say,
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: hang in there,
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: have hope,
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: because the king of kings and lord of lords will have the final say.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: The empire and the emperor will not.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: Empires and emperors come and go,
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: but the king of kings and lord of lords will have the final say.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: So when they talk about beasts,
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: they're talking about,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: in the case of the book of Daniel,
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: different nations.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: The beast could be Babylon.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: The beast could be Persia.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: The beast could be Rome.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Or the beast could be media.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so in John's Revelation...
• 27:26
  When he talks about the beast,
• 27:27
  he's talking about Rome,
• 27:29
  the empire of Rome.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: He's talking about the emperor.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: So this isn't a book about the second coming of Jesus.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: This is a book about Christians undergoing persecution under Rome.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: And there are a lot of different images of that.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: You've got the seven hills mentioned there, the seven hills of Rome.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: And to the point...
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: of what Terry had for us, the number 666.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: What does that mean?
• 27:59
  Well,
• 27:59
  back in that time,
• 28:03
  each letter in the alphabet had a numeric value to it.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: So A would be worth this many points.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: B would be worth this many points.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: C, this many points.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: And when you write out,
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: now I don't remember if it's Greek or Hebrew,
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: but either way,
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: Nero Caesar,
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: And you add up those numbers, you want to guess what they add up to?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: 666.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: So when you take,
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: it's either in Greek or Hebrew or both,
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: and you take Nero,
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: Caesar,
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: and you take the numbers that they put to each letter,
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: it adds up to 666.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: So 666 here isn't talking about some future Antichrist.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: 666 is talking about Nero who is persecuting them.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then the rest of the book is just talking to the Christians about,
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: yes,
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: there are some of you who are suffering.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Some of you have lost your lives.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: But Jesus has not abandoned you.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus has not lost his strength.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus will have the final say, hang in there.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so it uses all of this kind of imagery and metaphor,
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of it that's been lost to us,
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: but they would have understood it.
• 29:28
  So they wouldn't have picked up this book and said,
• 29:30
  well,
• 29:30
  this is a weird book.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: We better wait until 2025 to see what it means.
• 29:34
  They would have read it,
• 29:35
  understood all the code,
• 29:38
  and said,
• 29:39
  oh,
• 29:40
  this is great.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus just sent us a letter.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: that our Roman enemies won't understand, but we get it.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus is going to someday have the final word.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: And part of the reason why we know all this is because we've got,
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: and John starts off by sending a letter to seven churches at that time.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: This is for you right now, the seven churches in that area.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then it goes off into these bizarre things.
• 30:04
  So the book of Revelation is a tough one to study,
• 30:09
  but if we keep in mind,
• 30:10
  it is a book about
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: the early Christians suffering under Nero,
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: that's what the book is about,
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: and then try to figure out what all the symbolism means,
• 30:22
  we're going to be further ahead than if we try to impose on it
• 30:26
  being a book about
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: the second coming of Jesus,
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: because then we're just lost.
• 30:31
  That is absolutely fascinating and also a lot less interesting
• 30:35
  as a movie than the
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: movie that you mentioned earlier.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: Unless,
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 30:41
  you are living in one of those countries today where you're
• 30:43
  being persecuted by the
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: empire and the emperor.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, good point.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: Where they read that and they say, oh, this is the message for us.
• 30:52
  And the point of all of Revelation is to provide hope and
• 30:57
  encouragement to those
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: people who are reading it.
• 31:01
  Which I would guess that goal is largely lost on a reader in
• 31:06
  2025 who's trying to
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: get through all the imagery that's there.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: Again, a lot of that imagery is lost to us.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: But there's still a lot of it that we do understand.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we can make some sense of it.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: But yes,
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: if we understand first and foremost,
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: it's a book written to persecuted people under Nero.
• 31:27
  written in coded language so that the Christian church would
• 31:30
  understand it and not
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: get in trouble if the Romans got their hands on it,
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: then we can at least begin to start peeling off the layers and saying,
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: what do they mean by the beasts?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: And what are these seven hills?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: And what about this dragon who sweeps away those stars?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: And this baby was born and all these different things.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: And you begin to see, oh, yeah, okay.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: It actually does make some sense.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: And even though...
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Here in the United States of America,
• 31:59
  that book may not be on the top of our list because we're not a
• 32:03
  persecuted people
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: by the empire at this point.
• 32:06
  There are places around the world where this book would be
• 32:08
  very,
• 32:08
  very meaningful to them.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: That just as God rescued the people who read the book of Daniel,
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: just as God rescued the people who were in persecution under Nero,
• 32:20
  so the book of Revelation is a reminder that God is present
• 32:23
  with us in the person
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: of Jesus when we're being persecuted by the empire or the emperor.
• 32:28
  And that emperors and empires come and go,
• 32:30
  but the kingdom of God lasts forever.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: So hang in there.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus will have the final word.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of what the book is about.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: And when we start,
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: interpreting it to be a fear book about you better get your act together,
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to burn in hell.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: Or watch out, don't get that mark on you.
• 32:55
  Um,
• 32:55
  because if you get the mark of the beast on you,
• 32:57
  you can't go to heaven for sure.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: We've lost the plot.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: And once again,
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: we have turned the book of revelation,
• 33:03
  which is meant to be a book of hope into a weapon for fear and
• 33:07
  manipulation and
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: even trauma for some people.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: So in all this, are you covering the antichrist?
• 33:15
  Well,
• 33:16
  so interestingly,
• 33:17
  the Antichrist is mentioned in several different ways.
• 33:23
  In John's letters,
• 33:24
  for example,
• 33:25
  1st,
• 33:25
  2nd,
• 33:25
  and 3rd John,
• 33:26
  he mentions Antichrists.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 33:30
  And so he's talking about anybody who stands up and preaches
• 33:37
  something that is not
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: in line with Jesus.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay?
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Those would be Antichrists.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: Paul talks about the coming of the lawless one,
• 33:49
  and many have sort of suggested that maybe he's talking there
• 33:53
  about some antichrist
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: who will rule the entire world.
• 33:57
  But that doesn't really seem to be the sense of what Paul's
• 34:00
  talking about there.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: He could be talking about one of the Roman emperors, right?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't think, when we go back and look at Paul's writings,
• 34:12
  I don't think that his second coming thinking was developed to
• 34:17
  the point that
• 34:17
  someday there would be this leader who would be shot in the
• 34:24
  head and then come
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: alive again and then run the entire world for seven years.
• 34:28
  And that there would be some sort of talking statue that the
• 34:33
  whole world would see.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: It just,
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: for the context of where Paul's writing,
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 34:38
  remember he's writing to a particular group of people and Paul
• 34:40
  is in a first
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: century mindset.
• 34:43
  He would have no wherewithal whatsoever to even come up with
• 34:47
  those kinds of thoughts.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say,
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: Terry,
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: in answer to the question,
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: that we have antichrists around us all the time.
• 34:58
  There are religious leaders who say some very vile things in
• 35:02
  the name of Jesus.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: There are political leaders who...
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: run their empires in a way that,
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 35:14
  is authoritarian and totalitarian and robs people of their
• 35:17
  rights and their
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: dignity.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: And we know without mentioning them,
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: what countries we could be talking about right now who serves,
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: serve as anti Christ by the way they persecute Christians.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, they persecute their own people.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm at the point where I don't,
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: I used to believe this,
• 35:38
  but I don't know that there's going to ever come a point where
• 35:40
  there is just some
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: big leader of the entire world.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: It could happen.
• 35:45
  But I don't think that that's necessarily the sign that Jesus
• 35:48
  is coming back.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: the definitive,
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: we all know,
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: we all know that Jesus is coming back for each of us someday.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: when we breathe our last, Jesus comes back for us.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: And in a sense, that's a second coming.
• 36:14
  When Jesus will come back and recreate the earth and reconcile
• 36:20
  all things to
• 36:21
  himself and make all things new and there'll be a new heaven
• 36:23
  and a new earth,
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: as we said last week,
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus doesn't know,
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: so we don't know.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that we live...
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: We live out the kingdom of God now.
• 36:36
  What Jesus wants to happen on that,
• 36:38
  when the world is reconciled,
• 36:40
  he wants to happen right now.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's what it means for the kingdom of God to come.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: Again,
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: for the sick to be healed,
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: the hungry to be fed,
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: for systems of racism to be dismantled,
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: for poverty to be eliminated.
• 36:56
  All of these things that are anti the values of God,
• 37:01
  and so therefore anti-Christ,
• 37:04
  we're called to dismantle them now not someday and we're called
• 37:11
  to do the work um
• 37:15
  and so in in that sense you know when we share grace with
• 37:18
  people jesus just came
• 37:21
  when we feed the hungry people jesus just came again and jesus
• 37:25
  came over and over
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: again as we share the gospel and word and indeed um
• 37:33
  And I'm just remembering now,
• 37:36
  years ago,
• 37:38
  Jan and I attended church together.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: She went to a Presbyterian church, so I went to a Presbyterian church.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: And the pastor got up to preach,
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: and he was going a little bit,
• 37:50
  and then one of the other pastors came up and just interrupted
• 37:52
  him for a second.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: I thought, well, that's weird.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then he sat down.
• 37:57
  And then he preached a little more,
• 37:59
  and the pastor got up again,
• 38:00
  and he kind of says something.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: He points at his watch, and he sat down.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: And this happened the whole sermon, the whole 15-minute sermon.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: This guy just kept getting up and interrupting.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, my goodness.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: And the pastor's main point was this.
• 38:14
  This is what happens when all we do is focus on the second
• 38:18
  coming and the signs of Jesus coming.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: We get distracted from the work that we're supposed to be doing,
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: of bringing the gospel to people.
• 38:29
  We were so distracted by this guy constantly looking at his
• 38:32
  watch that we couldn't
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: stay in the moment of what we were supposed to be doing.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that was a really good point.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: Really well made.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: not as sexy as an antichrist coming along,
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: getting his head shot off,
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: and then coming back to life,
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: and Jesus coming down,
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: and Christians floating into the air,
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: and rapture practice,
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: and beasts,
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: and marks,
• 39:00
  but probably more gracious and godlike than some of these
• 39:05
  interpretations that
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: we've been looking at with Scripture.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: So again, the point is,
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: Our starting point is God and God is gracious.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: The book of Revelation is a book of grace and hope.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: We want to read scripture as it wants to be read.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a book that wants to be read as apocalyptic literature.
• 39:25
  It's a pastoral letter to people who are suffering persecution
• 39:29
  under Nero.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's coded for them to understand, to protect them.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: And we want to remember that in the end, it's about Jesus.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: Not about...
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: Do I have the right theology?
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: Or have I interpreted the signs correctly?
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: And Revelation kind of gives us a chance to talk about that.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: Terry.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's it?
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: No, I'm really, really thinking.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think I'm behind you guys just a little bit.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm taking it all in.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: What are we titling this?
• 40:11
  This is called The Mark of the Beast and Other Scary Stuff
• 40:14
  About the Return of Jesus.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: That it is.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_02: No, I'm here.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think in some of these situations,
• 40:25
  and I know that probably is the corner of the piece of the pie
• 40:27
  that I bring to the
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: table,
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_02: is that I am...
• 40:34
  is that I'm just lagging behind and trying to take it all in
• 40:37
  because I don't have
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: this kind of explanation of anything.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm piecing things together.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: Terry, you represent 99.9% of all the people listening to our podcast.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's the tattoo I'm going to get on my wrist.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: 99.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the 99.9%.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: 99.999.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:59
  Because there are a lot of people listening to the podcast who
• 41:02
  grew up like you and
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: I did with this understanding of the second coming.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:07
  There are a lot of people like John who may not have had much
• 41:09
  experience with this stuff at all.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: And they're thinking, what are we even talking about here?
• 41:14
  And there are some people who haven't had any experience
• 41:15
  whatsoever with it.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: And this is all just a bunch of garbly goop.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, taking a step back, I do see that.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, wow.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's just going to take me a minute to kind of sit with this for a bit.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: But one of the things that you said at the start of the podcast,
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_02: it just felt like somebody took a heavy weighted vest off my shoulders,
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: is that the freedom to ask questions.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: I thought you said something like that.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: And to not and that is not always welcome.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: I can say that it really wasn't in my my rearing or if it was,
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: you were,
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 42:00
  you were dealt with or a little bit or like lovingly
• 42:03
  disciplined or set straight.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm I'm in that mode.
• 42:07
  But I will say for myself that I have not allowed that rapture
• 42:11
  slash second coming.
• 42:14
  deter me from how it's not been my focus in other words you
• 42:18
  know what i mean so i
• 42:19
  i'm not patting myself on the back but i'm just saying that has
• 42:22
  not interfered like
• 42:24
  the sermon example that you just shared i don't think that i've
• 42:27
  been one of those
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: but um yeah john any last words from you before we head on out
• 42:36
  yeah so on the on the great point that terry uh brought us back
• 42:40
  to from the very
• 42:41
  beginning of thinking critically asking questions uh okay to
• 42:46
  doubt and understand
• 42:47
  that doubt and look into it all great stuff and i just want to
• 42:51
  remind people that
• 42:52
  um the whole series of i was wrong about that tim's been
• 42:57
  writing these are short
• 42:58
  little blurbs right you can go to it and kind of consume it
• 43:01
  probably in less than a
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: minute
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's all at recklessgrace.substack.com.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: Recklessgrace.substack.com.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, John.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: I will put that in a note.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's great.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 43:16
  We have no idea what we're talking about next week,
• 43:18
  but we'll talk about something.
• 43:20
  And we're going to assume,
• 43:21
  Terry,
• 43:21
  you're not going to be in a dentist chair?
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_03: No, I'm here with you.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_03: Me and Dolly.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because I wouldn't be able to download it and use it.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't royalty-free, otherwise.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: But it does sound like Dolly, doesn't it?
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, it's not Dolly.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: Nope, not Dolly.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: But we're going to be there.
• 43:43
  All right.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, everybody, for listening.
• 43:45
  Yeah.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: We're calling off the roll.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: Glad to be back.