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One Million Satellites, Space Mushrooms & the Search for Martian Shorelines | Space Nuts:... · Space News Today

• 0:00
  Hello again. Thanks for joining us. This
• 0:01
  is Space Nuts. My name is Andrew Dunky.
• 0:04
  Thanks for joining us. We've got a big
• 0:06
  program today. It is jam-packed. We've
• 0:08
  got 27
• 0:10
  at least 27 maybe six stories. Um
• 0:15
  here's one. I I don't know if you heard
• 0:16
  the song um 1 million bicycles in
• 0:19
  Beijing. It probably wasn't a big hit,
• 0:21
  but now we're talking 1 million
• 0:24
  satellites in space. Yep. It's it's a
• 0:27
  possible thing. Uh, some good news out
• 0:29
  of Chile though. We'll talk about that.
• 0:31
  Artemus 2, not bad news. Probably not
• 0:33
  surprising news. A launch delay. Space
• 0:36
  mushrooms. Yes, they are real and they
• 0:39
  are very yummy. Apparently, uh,
• 0:41
  Perseverance is going AI and they have
• 0:45
  discovered or confirmed a Martian
• 0:47
  shoreline. We'll talk about all of that
• 0:49
  on this episode of Space Nuts.
• 0:52
  >> 15 seconds. Guidance is internal. 10 9
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  Ignition sequence start.
• 0:58
  >> Space Nuts.
• 0:59
  >> 5 4 3 2
• 1:02
  >> 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1
• 1:04
  >> Space Nuts.
• 1:05
  >> Astronauts report. It feels good.
• 1:08
  >> And taking a break from a little sojourn
• 1:11
  to a horrible part of the world in
• 1:13
  Australia is Professor Fred Watson,
• 1:15
  astronomer at large. Hello, Fred.
• 1:18
  >> Hello. Hello, Andrew. Greetings from
• 1:20
  Nelson Bay.
• 1:21
  >> Yeah, dreadful, dreadful place. I I
• 1:23
  spent much of my youth in Nelson Bay,
• 1:25
  just north of Newcastle. It's just um it
• 1:28
  was a sleepy little fishing village when
• 1:30
  I used to go there, but now it's just um
• 1:34
  nothing like that.
• 1:35
  >> Well, it's been discovered, hasn't it?
• 1:37
  That's the thing. You know, two two
• 1:39
  hours from Sydney, it's uh and what,
• 1:43
  half an hour from Newcastle. It's not
• 1:44
  really
• 1:46
  >> It's It's bound to be a target. And it's
• 1:49
  still got its charm, though. I have to
• 1:50
  say as we were talking a few minutes
• 1:52
  ago, I've been coming here for 43 years
• 1:54
  nearly. In fact, it is it's 43 years and
• 1:57
  uh and uh it's as you exactly as you've
• 2:00
  said, it's very very different, but it's
• 2:03
  still uh geographically it's a lovely
• 2:05
  spot with Port Stevens, this huge
• 2:08
  expanse of water uh with um you know,
• 2:12
  islands in it and uh hills all around.
• 2:15
  Really quite remarkable.
• 2:16
  >> It is lovely. Yeah. Uh I miss it a lot.
• 2:19
  The last time we were there was for a
• 2:20
  beach wedding, but that's going back a
• 2:22
  few years. But even then, it didn't look
• 2:23
  like the, you know, the fishing village
• 2:26
  that I grew up, is it?
• 2:28
  >> Uh while we're talking about different
• 2:31
  places, um I was having a bit of a um I
• 2:34
  don't know what you'd call it, a job at
• 2:36
  Colorado's cold weather uh on a recent
• 2:39
  episode. And um I I got a note from
• 2:42
  Michael who said um on the podcast
• 2:44
  you're concerned about the frigid
• 2:46
  temperatures in Colorado. Unfortunately,
• 2:48
  we've just had one of the warmest
• 2:49
  Decembers on record with daily highs
• 2:51
  often 10 to 15° C. That's that's a
• 2:54
  winter in do um until this weekend,
• 2:57
  January, uh was on track to be well
• 2:59
  above normal uh with highs around 7 to
• 3:02
  10. And to add insult to injury, our
• 3:05
  mountain snow packs are the worst on
• 3:07
  record. Uh, and while our um um USB50
• 3:13
  ski industry is getting hurt, the real
• 3:16
  problem is that they rely on melting
• 3:18
  snow for water and they didn't get a lot
• 3:20
  of snow this year. So, um, yeah. Uh,
• 3:24
  that's that's a scary one. Um, and and I
• 3:26
  I think a lot of places in the world
• 3:28
  rely on snow for, you know, the the the
• 3:31
  spring melt for their water supplies.
• 3:33
  So, hopefully that's just a one-off in
• 3:35
  Colorado.
• 3:37
  Um, got a lot to talk about, Fred. Let's
• 3:39
  start with this uh this
• 3:43
  news that we received uh during the
• 3:45
  week. It's it's been um highly
• 3:47
  publicized.
• 3:49
  Uh Elon Musk, SpaceX
• 3:52
  has put in an application to launch
• 3:54
  possibly 1 million satellites. 1
• 3:58
  million. This this is a a completely
• 4:00
  different project to that of um uh uh
• 4:03
  the the um internet service that he's
• 4:06
  that he's been working on. This this is
• 4:08
  another kettle of fish.
• 4:10
  >> It is it's an orbiting data center. Uh
• 4:14
  >> so uh in fact SpaceX has basically
• 4:17
  teamed up with another company, an AI
• 4:19
  company. Um and together there is this
• 4:23
  plan to launch three sorry not 300,000 a
• 4:28
  million satellites
• 4:30
  um between 500 kilometers and 200 2,000
• 4:34
  kilometers in altitude um and at
• 4:40
  probably quite interesting inclinations
• 4:43
  not far from the equator uh and also
• 4:46
  some uh which will be in polar orbits
• 4:51
  What's the idea? Well, you you basically
• 4:54
  harness the sun's energy uh using these
• 4:57
  uh these spacecraft uh in order to power
• 5:00
  your data center uh and you link them by
• 5:04
  lasers essentially optical links. Uh and
• 5:08
  so uh the you know the the whole thing
• 5:11
  then engages with Starlink to send the
• 5:13
  data up and down to the earth. So it's a
• 5:17
  it's a wild idea. Um, it fills
• 5:20
  astronomers with horror. Uh, because a
• 5:23
  million satellites in orbit is just
• 5:25
  gonna completely pollute the sky.
• 5:28
  Especially
• 5:29
  >> when you have the some of them at 2,000
• 5:32
  kilometers, which means that they're
• 5:34
  they're visible for in fact at some
• 5:36
  latitudes they'll be visible all night.
• 5:39
  >> Uh, so that's uh, yep, that's uh, the
• 5:42
  latest shock horror. Uh, that is a
• 5:44
  filing that has gone, I think I'm right
• 5:46
  in saying, to the Federal Communications
• 5:47
  Commission. Uh I don't know whether it's
• 5:51
  been filed with the International
• 5:52
  Telecommunications Union which is the
• 5:54
  only international body that uh can
• 5:58
  basically regulates um space flights.
• 6:01
  There are many national bodies but uh
• 6:03
  the only international one is the ITU.
• 6:05
  Uh I would guess they would accept it uh
• 6:09
  because they accepted a filing back in
• 6:12
  2020 for 300,000 satellites put in by
• 6:14
  the Rwanda government. Um, but that uh
• 6:18
  if it hasn't already, and I don't think
• 6:19
  it has yet, that will have expired
• 6:21
  because I think they've only lost
• 6:22
  launched one cubat uh rather than
• 6:26
  300,000. So, it might be a little bit a
• 6:29
  little bit like the Rwanda was something
• 6:31
  like putting your foot in the door uh to
• 6:34
  uh you know to uh to to stake a claim.
• 6:36
  But we will see what happens. It's a
• 6:38
  very interesting development and said
• 6:40
  one that scares us to death in the
• 6:42
  world. Yeah, certainly a divisive issue
• 6:45
  and um it's not the first time as you
• 6:48
  said um the year before last there were
• 6:50
  complaints about the Starlink network
• 6:52
  and you know the blinding of telescopes.
• 6:54
  Astronomers got upset about that. Uh
• 6:56
  Elon Musk has actually rejected those
• 6:59
  claims and he'd probably reject these
• 7:01
  ones too. I mean
• 7:03
  >> it has to be said he's not he hasn't
• 7:06
  really of all the the internet uh supply
• 7:09
  companies of course Starink is the the
• 7:11
  one that's most populous. They've got uh
• 7:13
  9,000 a little bit more than 9,000
• 7:16
  spacecraft in orbit and um SpaceX has
• 7:19
  worked with the astronomical community
• 7:21
  to try and minimize their effect of of
• 7:23
  all the companies they've been the most
• 7:25
  forthcoming. But it's hard to see how
• 7:28
  when you put it up to a million
• 7:29
  satellites, how you can reconcile that
• 7:31
  with with astronomy.
• 7:32
  >> No. Uh and I might add actually as we
• 7:35
  speak there is a meeting going on in in
• 7:37
  Vienna uh which uh the issue of uh what
• 7:40
  we call dark and quiet skies the idea of
• 7:42
  satellite constellations that will be
• 7:44
  discussed this week and then
• 7:46
  >> okay be interesting to see what comes
• 7:48
  out of that. Uh we'll leave that one
• 7:51
  there. Um but I'm sure there'll be more
• 7:52
  about it going forward maybe. Uh let's
• 7:55
  go over to Chile because we talked about
• 7:57
  a um an energy energy project that was
• 8:01
  uh being touted for that part of the
• 8:03
  world which was going to be very close
• 8:04
  to some of the most significant
• 8:06
  telescopes on earth. Uh the problem with
• 8:09
  this energy plant was it was going to be
• 8:12
  um basically the size of a small city.
• 8:15
  So the lighting would have been a major
• 8:17
  issue but that that seems to have all
• 8:19
  been scrapped.
• 8:22
  >> Uh indeed it has. So, so the the problem
• 8:26
  was uh you're quite right. Um there is
• 8:29
  there are two mountains in Chile which
• 8:32
  aren't notable for astronomy. They've
• 8:34
  both got optical telescopes. One is
• 8:36
  Sarah Paranel which houses the VT uh the
• 8:39
  four 8.2 2 meter uh telescopes of the of
• 8:43
  the very large telescope as it's called
• 8:45
  and about um it's about 20 kilometers
• 8:48
  away on the other side of the valley is
• 8:50
  a mountain called Sarah Armazone is
• 8:52
  where the biggest telescope in the world
• 8:53
  is being built 39 meter ELT or extremely
• 8:56
  large telescope and in that valley uh
• 8:58
  it's where uh the an energy company AES
• 9:02
  Andes uh they had plans for a factory to
• 9:07
  use solar and wind energy to make green
• 9:09
  hydrogen
• 9:10
  Uh and as exactly as you've said, it was
• 9:12
  citicized. Uh it were it filled
• 9:15
  astronomers with horror because uh it
• 9:17
  threatened to put light pollution into a
• 9:20
  region which so far has been completely
• 9:23
  dark and which houses perhaps the
• 9:25
  world's most productive and efficient
• 9:27
  telescope. Certainly when the ELT comes
• 9:29
  along, uh there is nothing to touch it
• 9:32
  anywhere else in the world. It's going
• 9:33
  to be an extraordinary instrument. Uh
• 9:35
  but it's been cancelled. the company has
• 9:38
  pulled out of the project and I think
• 9:40
  they've taken note of the environmental
• 9:42
  damage it would do to astronomy. I think
• 9:44
  that's been the reason why they've done
• 9:45
  that and so all credit to people who've
• 9:48
  used common sense to you know to
• 9:51
  progress things they'll no doubt put it
• 9:53
  somewhere else um where it might be less
• 9:56
  damaging because it is a you know it's
• 9:58
  an environmentally positive uh step.
• 10:00
  Green hydrogen's a great thing to have
• 10:03
  but uh but we don't want it there. No,
• 10:06
  no, but uh hopefully they will be able
• 10:09
  to put it somewhere else because it does
• 10:11
  sound like a a good project moving
• 10:13
  forward, but just um yeah, not not
• 10:16
  there. Not in that place. Um yeah,
• 10:18
  >> hats off to them for making that
• 10:21
  decision. It must have been difficult
• 10:22
  because that's a that's a 10 billion US
• 10:24
  project. That's
• 10:26
  >> very big. Yeah,
• 10:26
  >> that's a lot of bigies.
• 10:27
  >> I suppose that that's the ultimate nimi,
• 10:30
  isn't it? Uh a nimi pro process. Not in
• 10:32
  my backyard.
• 10:33
  >> Not in my backyard. We got a lot of nimi
• 10:34
  projects around here. I could tell you.
• 10:36
  >> Yes.
• 10:37
  >> Wind farms, solar farms, the inland
• 10:39
  rail. It's all causing um a lot of
• 10:42
  people to um get a bit nimi. This is
• 10:45
  Space Nuts with Andrew Dunley and
• 10:48
  Professor Fred Watson.
• 10:52
  >> Swift
• 10:54
  base here. The angle has landed.
• 10:56
  >> Space nets.
• 10:57
  >> Okay, Fred. Uh speaking of the boon,
• 11:00
  let's move our attention to Arteimus 2.
• 11:03
  that uh mission we talked about last
• 11:05
  week which was getting ready for its wet
• 11:07
  rehearsal and a few other tests and a
• 11:09
  few checkovers. Uh mostly things went
• 11:13
  well but they did find a hydrogen leak
• 11:16
  and that set them back another month.
• 11:20
  >> Uh it's a bit like Groundhog Day, isn't
• 11:21
  it really? Cuz this is exactly what
• 11:23
  happened with Arteimus one. Uh and in
• 11:26
  fact at one point I think they took the
• 11:28
  the whole spacecraft back into the
• 11:30
  vehicle assembly building to to try and
• 11:32
  fix the hydrogen leaks. Uh so yes the
• 11:34
  wet uh the wet dress rehearsal was this
• 11:37
  past weekend uh our time uh as we are
• 11:40
  speaking today on the recording. Um and
• 11:44
  the hydrogen leak as I understand it is
• 11:47
  it's the place where the pipe fits into
• 11:50
  the into the tank. You know it's like on
• 11:53
  your car. It's where you stick your the
• 11:55
  fuel bowser in hose into your petrol
• 11:59
  tank. Except it's a little bit more
• 12:01
  complicated than that. But I think
• 12:02
  that's where the leak has been. And it's
• 12:04
  sufficiently it's worrying enough to the
• 12:08
  engineers and the administrators who are
• 12:11
  overlooking 2 that what they've done is
• 12:13
  they said well actually we need to do
• 12:15
  another wet dress rehearsal when we fix
• 12:18
  this problem. And that means postponing
• 12:20
  uh at the altimus 2 launch from this
• 12:23
  month which was what we hoped uh to next
• 12:25
  month which means March at the earliest.
• 12:28
  So yes uh a push uh back in uh in in the
• 12:32
  you know in the process.
• 12:33
  >> Will will they leave the launch vehicle
• 12:36
  on the pad at this stage?
• 12:38
  >> I think at the moment that's the plan.
• 12:40
  Uh I haven't heard uh any hints of it
• 12:44
  being taken back to vehicle assembly
• 12:46
  building. That's a you know it's a big
• 12:47
  pro process is a major step to have to
• 12:50
  do that. So they will certainly I think
• 12:51
  be looking at trying to fix it on the
• 12:53
  pad beforehand.
• 12:55
  >> Okay. And and if they can't Yeah. They
• 12:57
  might have to roll back
• 12:59
  >> Yeah.
• 13:00
  >> again.
• 13:01
  >> Again.
• 13:02
  >> But you know it's it's it's all about
• 13:03
  safety. That's the most important thing.
• 13:06
  And
• 13:07
  >> yeah,
• 13:08
  >> we you know they they want to get this
• 13:10
  right. So, um, it's better to be a month
• 13:14
  late or even longer than have something
• 13:17
  go horribly wrong, which we've certainly
• 13:19
  witnessed in the past. And we talked
• 13:20
  about the anniversary of Colombia last
• 13:22
  week. And it's, you know, those things
• 13:25
  are still strong in people's minds. You
• 13:28
  got to avoid that at all costs. So, um,
• 13:31
  yeah, hopefully they'll find find the
• 13:32
  problem. Maybe it's a poo valve that's
• 13:34
  just, you know, not
• 13:37
  >> Yeah, it could be a P valve. The real
• 13:40
  problem is hydrogen atoms are so small.
• 13:44
  >> Yeah.
• 13:44
  >> Uh they're the smallest of all atoms. So
• 13:46
  they they fit through any tiny crack. Um
• 13:49
  we had a uh at one time uh when I was
• 13:52
  working as an astronomer at Siding
• 13:54
  Spring Observatory, not far from you. Uh
• 13:56
  one of our telescopes used photographic
• 13:58
  plates back in the day. And to sensitize
• 14:02
  them, we called it hypersensitizing. We
• 14:04
  we actually had to bathe them in
• 14:05
  hydrogen for a period of something like
• 14:08
  10 hours before they were used and that
• 14:11
  increased their sensitivity by se
• 14:13
  several orders in fact. Uh um but the
• 14:17
  problem was keeping the hydrogen where
• 14:18
  you wanted it. It tends to leak. Uh it's
• 14:20
  it's a very leaky gas because of the
• 14:23
  small size of the atoms.
• 14:24
  >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, just look at the
• 14:26
  Hindenburg. Certainly leaked there.
• 14:29
  >> Yes, that's right.
• 14:30
  >> Yeah. Um although didn't they figure out
• 14:33
  many many years later that it wasn't the
• 14:35
  hydrogen leaking that was the problem.
• 14:37
  It was the um ah what do they call it
• 14:41
  the stuff in the fabric um that that
• 14:43
  caused the problem. Yeah. It wasn't it
• 14:45
  wasn't actually the hydrogen that was
• 14:47
  the issue. It was the it was the static
• 14:50
  electricity in the fabric but it was the
• 14:52
  the lacquer. I think the lacquer.
• 14:54
  >> That was my
• 14:54
  >> Yeah,
• 14:55
  >> that that could be it. That was my
• 14:56
  understanding that it was static
• 14:57
  electricity.
• 14:58
  >> Yeah. different story. But yeah, Artemus
• 15:02
  2 still on the launch pad. U probably
• 15:05
  the schedule is March the 6th at this
• 15:07
  stage, but um maybe that will change uh
• 15:11
  depending on how the next test goes or
• 15:14
  the wet rehearsal or whatever they do.
• 15:16
  They did want to try and do more than
• 15:17
  one. So um yeah, well, they got an
• 15:19
  opportunity. Now they have to. Um now,
• 15:22
  uh this this story I find fascinating
• 15:25
  and I think you've got a personal
• 15:27
  connection with some of the people
• 15:28
  involved in this, but they have
• 15:30
  basically grown mushrooms in space and
• 15:33
  then they brought them back and had
• 15:34
  lunch.
• 15:37
  That's right. Uh this is actually a
• 15:39
  friend of ours, um Sarah Webb, who's
• 15:42
  down in Melbourne. She's a an
• 15:44
  astrophysicist and a science
• 15:46
  communicator uh which is how we've
• 15:48
  worked with her in the past. But she
• 15:50
  runs uh a project uh to basically engage
• 15:56
  um with the International Space Station
• 15:59
  uh uh on behalf of school school
• 16:03
  students. Uh and so this particular
• 16:05
  project uh was designed by 12 uh by
• 16:10
  Sarah and and one sorry Sarah and one of
• 16:12
  her colleagues uh plus 12 high school
• 16:15
  students from Hailbury College in
• 16:17
  Melbourne uh and um a lot of help from
• 16:20
  professional mushroom growers. Uh what
• 16:23
  they did was they packaged up uh not the
• 16:27
  mushrooms themselves but the things that
• 16:31
  uh essentially act almost like the roots
• 16:35
  of the mushrooms uh which are called uh
• 16:39
  mascelium uh a word I didn't know
• 16:41
  because I'm not a mushroom expert. The
• 16:43
  small filaments that are essentially the
• 16:46
  root network of mushrooms. So that's
• 16:48
  what they sent up. They were in space
• 16:50
  for a month on the International Space
• 16:52
  Station. They came back again with a
• 16:54
  crew change. Um, and so what the
• 16:57
  researchers did uh was to essentially
• 17:00
  take these mcelium uh uh filaments and
• 17:04
  plant them and turn them into mushrooms.
• 17:07
  Uh, and it worked. Uh, it worked well.
• 17:10
  And so they've now written a rather nice
• 17:12
  conversation piece which is entitled We
• 17:15
  Ate Space Mushrooms and survived to tell
• 17:18
  the tale which is I think quite a nice
• 17:20
  title.
• 17:21
  >> It is rather uh I was just looking up
• 17:23
  what the most expensive mushrooms in the
• 17:25
  world are and they're the yatsa gamboo
• 17:28
  caterpillar fungus.
• 17:30
  uh and they cost $50 to $63,000
• 17:34
  per pound because of their rarity and
• 17:37
  apparently they've got medicinal
• 17:39
  properties and you know they grow them
• 17:41
  in the Himalayas. I've got a feeling
• 17:45
  these mushrooms which are based on the
• 17:48
  lion's mane mushroom.
• 17:50
  >> Yes.
• 17:51
  >> Uh would be a bit more expensive than
• 17:52
  that by the sound of it.
• 17:55
  >> Yeah, they might be by the time you
• 17:57
  figure in the cost of the International
• 17:58
  Space Station. That's right. And the
• 18:00
  lion's mane is the one um it's a species
• 18:03
  that it's actually the one that they
• 18:04
  they ate. Um it's just to put this
• 18:08
  project in context, it's really um you
• 18:11
  know thinking about how you might uh
• 18:14
  grow fresh food for astronauts on
• 18:18
  longhaul space missions.
• 18:19
  >> Uh you know, if you've got um people
• 18:22
  going to Mars, you're going to have six,
• 18:24
  seven, eight months in the spacecraft.
• 18:26
  Um can you uh as they say in their
• 18:29
  conversation article, how can you
• 18:31
  continue to nutritionally support those
• 18:33
  astronauts? Uh and uh that is
• 18:37
  essentially uh one one of the
• 18:39
  motivations for looking at things like
• 18:40
  growing things in space uh giving them
• 18:44
  um the check out to make sure that they
• 18:46
  don't uh turn poisonous by their zero
• 18:50
  gravity environment, things of that
• 18:51
  sort. And that's what they've done with
• 18:52
  this. So very nice experiment. Yeah,
• 18:54
  I've been doing a lot of research on how
• 18:56
  you would feed people on a on a a
• 18:59
  spaceship for a long haul mission. And
• 19:02
  that's one of the solutions uh to to
• 19:05
  have um basically small farms on on the
• 19:08
  ship. hydroponics and things like that
• 19:11
  and and grow grow your vegetables and
• 19:13
  and your fungi and
• 19:15
  >> whatever else will grow easily in space
• 19:17
  and supplement the other stuff that you
• 19:21
  have to take with you um which would be
• 19:23
  the proteins. But uh yeah, it's um it's
• 19:26
  a really interesting um story uh what
• 19:31
  they can do with food. I mean, if you're
• 19:33
  going to spend a year out in space or or
• 19:35
  whatever, you you can't just rely on
• 19:38
  packets of chips. And
• 19:42
  >> yeah, you you won't get out of the hatch
• 19:44
  when you get home. But um yeah,
• 19:47
  nutrition is very important and uh yeah,
• 19:50
  they got to get that right too uh in
• 19:52
  time. It's all it's not it's not an easy
• 19:55
  thing, is it? going into space when you
• 19:56
  consider all the logistics involved in
• 19:59
  in feeding and disposal of waste and um
• 20:03
  you know um all the other things that go
• 20:06
  with it. Quite quite extraordinary. But
• 20:08
  uh I wonder what they were like like um
• 20:10
  I um I think the report basically
• 20:14
  suggests that they were quite yummy.
• 20:16
  >> Yes. Um that's right. Exactly that. They
• 20:19
  were very tasty.
• 20:20
  >> Yeah.
• 20:20
  >> I wonder did do you think space changes
• 20:22
  the the taste of things? Well, in you
• 20:25
  know, that might be one of the um the
• 20:27
  tests that you do. You you you take uh
• 20:31
  mycelium that's been to space and
• 20:33
  mycelium that hasn't and um try try to
• 20:36
  contrast the two. I'm sure they've done
• 20:37
  that, too.
• 20:38
  >> Yeah, maybe. It's great story. You can
• 20:40
  read it at the conversation website. Uh
• 20:44
  yes, it's called We Ate Space Mushrooms
• 20:46
  and Survived to Tell the Tale. Love it.
• 20:49
  Uh this is Space Nuts with Andrew Dunley
• 20:51
  and Professor Fred Watson.
• 20:55
  We choose to go to the moon in this
• 20:57
  decade and do the other things not
• 21:00
  because they are easy but because they
• 21:02
  are hard.
• 21:03
  >> These nuts.
• 21:05
  >> Now Fred, we're going to dedicate the
• 21:07
  last section of the show to Mars. And
• 21:10
  this was uh a story that caught me a
• 21:13
  little bit by surprise. We've talked a
• 21:15
  lot about the Perseverance rover and
• 21:17
  what it's up to. Um these two stories
• 21:20
  actually involve Perseverance. Um, but
• 21:24
  this one, um, yeah, Perseverance has
• 21:26
  gone AI. No more no more human drivers.
• 21:30
  We've left it up to the computers.
• 21:32
  >> They've That's right. So, it's, um, the
• 21:35
  story is really about the first ever
• 21:38
  drive on Mars, fully planned by
• 21:40
  artificial intelligence.
• 21:42
  >> Wow.
• 21:42
  >> And it h happened actually at the end of
• 21:44
  last year. Um, the two demonstrations
• 21:47
  carried out on December the 8th and
• 21:48
  December the 10th last year. uh and it's
• 21:52
  all about how you plan a route across
• 21:55
  the terrain uh of Mars uh with no manual
• 22:00
  input. And so it's a a process that uh
• 22:05
  usually is is performed by humans as you
• 22:09
  might expect. People on Earth pouring
• 22:11
  over the maps that we've got the high
• 22:15
  resolution images that have been taken
• 22:16
  by Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter and
• 22:19
  things of that sort. Um so uh what
• 22:22
  they've done is given all that to the AI
• 22:25
  um u machine and said okay we want to
• 22:28
  get to there how do we do it and
• 22:32
  basically that's what they've done and
• 22:35
  it's um it there's a very nice report on
• 22:39
  this on the uh space.com website
• 22:43
  >> uh that gives us uh a map showing the
• 22:46
  planned and the actual routes that were
• 22:50
  taken by the Perseverance rover. Uh, and
• 22:54
  it just goes to show how close the
• 22:57
  actual route was to the planned route,
• 22:58
  which means that they, you know, they
• 23:00
  didn't encounter unexpected obstacles
• 23:03
  and things of that sort.
• 23:04
  >> Yeah, that's uh very unlike when I used
• 23:06
  to go in the car with my grandmother.
• 23:08
  She Yeah, I
• 23:10
  remember one day we turned into the
• 23:12
  highway and she was on the wrong side of
• 23:14
  the road.
• 23:16
  >> Anyway, that's not a problem on Mars.
• 23:19
  No, there there isn't a wrong side of
• 23:20
  the road on Mars. That's right. I
• 23:22
  suppose um you know getting off the your
• 23:25
  beaten track is uh but there isn't a
• 23:27
  beaten track. That's the other thing. So
• 23:29
  you're always on virgin territory when
• 23:31
  you're uh driving a spacecraft on Mars.
• 23:34
  Um I think um I think it's uh a step
• 23:38
  forward because I think there's quite a
• 23:40
  lot of uh you know work goes in uh to um
• 23:46
  the the the
• 23:48
  human planning of the the routes to
• 23:50
  Mars. Um it's it's uh it's a labor
• 23:56
  intensive process. Um in fact I might
• 23:59
  read a little bit from that space.com
• 24:01
  article which is really quite sums up
• 24:04
  the the whole process. Uh because Mars
• 24:06
  is an average of 150 million miles or
• 24:09
  225 million kilometers from Earth.
• 24:12
  Communication delays make realtime
• 24:14
  control impossible. For decades mission
• 24:16
  teams have instead planned daily routes
• 24:18
  by hand. Human drivers analyze the
• 24:21
  terrain and rover status data,
• 24:24
  then map out paths using way points,
• 24:27
  typically spaced no more than about 100
• 24:29
  meters, 330 ft apart, to avoid hazards.
• 24:33
  And then these plans are sent to Mars
• 24:34
  via the deep space network where the
• 24:37
  rover executes them. Uh so this is uh uh
• 24:42
  really um you know a step forward. If
• 24:44
  you can get AI to do all that, then the
• 24:46
  other mission scientists could go and do
• 24:48
  something else like analyze uh what the
• 24:51
  what the sample uh you know sample
• 24:53
  gatherers are telling us about the
• 24:55
  terrain on Mars.
• 24:56
  >> Yeah. Uh it's it's a big leap forward
• 25:00
  really. And when you think about it, I
• 25:02
  mean
• 25:04
  they've they've done it pretty tough
• 25:06
  trying to make decisions about where to
• 25:08
  where to go and how to do it. And if you
• 25:10
  have to make a direction change, the
• 25:12
  time factor is like 4 minutes up to 24
• 25:16
  minutes to get the message to
• 25:18
  Perseverance
• 25:20
  and then you got to wait that time again
• 25:22
  for the message to come back saying,
• 25:23
  "No, we hit a rock."
• 25:25
  >> That's right. Yes. So, yeah. Exactly.
• 25:28
  So, um you know, that's why you've got
• 25:30
  to upload the the instructions
• 25:32
  beforehand. Um and if AI can help with
• 25:35
  that, so much the better.
• 25:36
  >> Yeah. Incredible. Yeah. I I mean you
• 25:38
  hear a lot of doom and gloom about AI
• 25:40
  from certain commentators. Uh you know
• 25:43
  it's going to be the end of humanity.
• 25:45
  That's the extreme. But it's so useful.
• 25:48
  Like even in general day-to-day stuff,
• 25:51
  uh it is so very useful. I was trying to
• 25:53
  look something up the other day and I
• 25:55
  could not get the wording right in my
• 25:58
  browser for it to look up what I wanted.
• 26:00
  It doesn't happen often like that, but
• 26:02
  it was driving me nuts. So, I just went
• 26:05
  to um AI mode and went, I want to know
• 26:08
  this. And it went ding, ding, ding,
• 26:10
  done. It's it's pretty impressive stuff.
• 26:13
  >> Really impressive stuff. And we're only
• 26:15
  at the very dawning of it, aren't we?
• 26:17
  Really, it's it's only in the early
• 26:19
  days. And uh it makes me wonder, Fred,
• 26:22
  what we can use in terms of AI as
• 26:25
  day-to-day people, what have they got
• 26:28
  going in secret, you know, in in in
• 26:33
  the dark rooms of the military and
• 26:35
  places like that. Their AI systems must
• 26:37
  be amazing.
• 26:39
  >> Yeah, that's where it really starts
• 26:41
  worrying when you let robots go off and
• 26:43
  kill people.
• 26:44
  >> Yeah, that'll happen one day.
• 26:46
  >> Yeah,
• 26:46
  >> I don't doubt it. But, uh, yeah,
• 26:48
  fantastic story about Perseverance, uh,
• 26:51
  using AI technology to find its way
• 26:54
  around and, uh, maybe it'll miss those
• 26:56
  rocks now. And you can read it at
• 26:58
  space.com.
• 27:00
  Still on Mars and, uh, still on the, um,
• 27:05
  Perseverance rover. Uh, this is a
• 27:08
  fabulous story to finish on, Fred. And
• 27:10
  this is I I think we've talked about the
• 27:12
  potential for a shoreline uh being
• 27:16
  suggested for Mars, but now they reckon
• 27:19
  they've actually uncovered
• 27:21
  definitive evidence of it. That's right.
• 27:24
  Yes. So you you're absolutely right.
• 27:26
  There's um uh for a long time there have
• 27:29
  been features in just in the geomapology
• 27:32
  of Mars the you know the layout of the
• 27:34
  land that uh suggest uh shorelines uh
• 27:40
  from this this hypothetical ocean which
• 27:44
  that the evidence is building probably
• 27:46
  covered the northern hemisphere of Mars
• 27:48
  for a long period. Uh we've talked about
• 27:50
  several stories recently that seem to be
• 27:52
  confirming that it was a large body of
• 27:54
  water rather than just a few lakes that
• 27:56
  came and went uh with uh with the
• 27:59
  climate. Um so but the you know we it's
• 28:04
  one thing identifying possible
• 28:06
  shorelines from orbit but it's quite
• 28:09
  another to have definitive evidence on
• 28:12
  the ground. And that's uh what
• 28:15
  Perseverance seems to have found now
• 28:18
  with an analysis of rocks. And we're
• 28:21
  still talking about Jezero Crater, which
• 28:23
  is where the spacecraft is. Remember,
• 28:26
  it's this crater that we believe was
• 28:27
  once full of water. And there's a a
• 28:30
  river delta on one side of it, which is
• 28:32
  what Perseverance is is looking at. Um
• 28:35
  but the shoreline uh hypothesis comes
• 28:38
  about uh and this is actually uh um from
• 28:42
  studies carried out by scientists at
• 28:44
  Imperial College in London. Uh what
• 28:47
  they've done is they've looked at it's
• 28:49
  an area which is called the margin unit.
• 28:52
  Uh interesting you it's sounds bit more
• 28:55
  like a jazz combo to me but it's the
• 28:57
  margin unit. That's the that's the the
• 29:00
  name of this uh geological feature. M uh
• 29:03
  and it's got a double whammy in terms of
• 29:07
  uh the way its history has evolved
• 29:10
  because uh there's there's signs of uh
• 29:15
  what's been called subsurface water
• 29:17
  activity where you've got water that is
• 29:22
  changing the characteristics of rock. Uh
• 29:25
  and the I think the thinking summarizing
• 29:28
  it very quickly and I hope I'm doing the
• 29:30
  scientist justice in doing this. Uh what
• 29:32
  you've got is basically it starts off
• 29:34
  with volcanic rock but uh that rock is
• 29:37
  then altered by water uh and turns out
• 29:41
  to have uh you know to be sort of
• 29:43
  carbonacious after that carbon dioxide
• 29:45
  uh rich water underground circulating
• 29:48
  underground. It it gives the a chemical
• 29:51
  alteration to the to the to the
• 29:53
  landscape underground. Um and so that's
• 29:57
  one of the things that this study has
• 29:59
  revealed that that is almost certainly
• 30:01
  what happened. But the other thing is uh
• 30:05
  the fact that they now see evidence of a
• 30:08
  shoreline in terms of the basically the
• 30:12
  layers the um the there there are
• 30:15
  structures in the sand sandstone which
• 30:18
  is kind of what it is. It's this altered
• 30:20
  rock um which match structures as they
• 30:24
  say typically formed by wave action on
• 30:26
  the shoreline.
• 30:27
  >> Yeah.
• 30:28
  >> Um and a lovely comment from one of the
• 30:30
  uh one of the researchers. We are
• 30:32
  looking at what was once a beach. Uh
• 30:35
  that's Alex Jones who is a PhD student
• 30:38
  at the Imperial College and he's the
• 30:40
  lead author of uh this this study.
• 30:43
  >> Yeah, it's fascinating. So
• 30:45
  >> I I think for me, Fred, the most
• 30:47
  exciting part of this story is that they
• 30:49
  are suggesting this discovery pushes
• 30:52
  back the timeline for conditions that
• 30:54
  would support life on Mars. So it g does
• 30:58
  that mean that the the time frame is
• 31:00
  much larger than they originally
• 31:02
  thought?
• 31:03
  >> Yes, I think that's the bottom line that
• 31:05
  you you know you you you're giving
• 31:06
  yourself a bigger window uh in which uh
• 31:10
  life could form on Mars. So yes, it's uh
• 31:13
  it is a very nice piece of work. Uh once
• 31:16
  again, it's just adding to the growing
• 31:18
  body of evidence that we we are amassing
• 31:21
  that yes, Mars once had a climate very
• 31:23
  like the Earth's.
• 31:24
  >> Yeah. And may may well have had life as
• 31:28
  a consequence of that. And now that the
• 31:30
  window is bigger, um yeah, it's I my
• 31:35
  brain is saying it's only a matter of
• 31:36
  time before we find the evidence. And
• 31:39
  whether or not there's still life on
• 31:41
  Mars, no one's dismissing that
• 31:43
  possibility either.
• 31:45
  >> No, that's that's right. Exactly.
• 31:47
  Fascinating story. You can read it at
• 31:49
  daily galaxy.com.
• 31:52
  Uh or you can do the uh geeky thing and
• 31:56
  read the paper at the Journal of
• 31:58
  Geoysical Research Planets. Uh gosh,
• 32:01
  Fred, we've uh we've covered a lot of
• 32:03
  territory and we're all done for the
• 32:05
  day. Thank you very much.
• 32:07
  Pleasure and uh great to revisit Mars
• 32:10
  again. Your favorite planet.
• 32:11
  >> Yeah, it's Well, it's got a lot to tell,
• 32:12
  hasn't it? That's that's what makes it
• 32:14
  exciting. Yeah, we've got um um so much
• 32:18
  going on there and there's always news
• 32:20
  almost every day coming out of Mars.
• 32:22
  Yeah. Fascinating. Thanks, Rick. We'll
• 32:24
  catch you real soon.
• 32:25
  >> That sounds great. See you soon.
• 32:27
  >> See you. Uh and uh don't forget to visit
• 32:30
  our website uh between episodes. You can
• 32:32
  do that at spaceodcast.com.
• 32:34
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• 32:36
  have a look around. You can get your uh
• 32:38
  daily uh news feed through our website.
• 32:41
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• 32:43
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• 32:48
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• 32:50
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• 32:54
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• 32:56
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• 32:59
  Uh and don't forget our social media as
• 33:01
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• 33:06
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• 33:12
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• 33:15
  thanks to Hugh in the studio who
• 33:17
  couldn't be with us today because he's
• 33:18
  in Brisbane.
• 33:20
  That's funny for a lot of reasons that
• 33:22
  no one will understand, but um anyway,
• 33:24
  we'll leave it there. And from me,
• 33:26
  Andrew Dunley, uh thanks for your
• 33:28
  company. We'll catch you on the next
• 33:29
  episode of Space Nuts. Bye-bye.
• 33:31
  >> Space Nuts.
• 33:32
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• 33:34
  podcast
• 33:37
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