Latest / Pastor Plek's Podcast / Rethinking Affection in Church Communities

Transcript

Rethinking Affection in Church Communities · Pastor Plek's Podcast

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: back to pastor plex podcast.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, pastor plec, and we are talking about a hot button issue that just hit the set and, uh, adrian is going to just share.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Adrian is going to go.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Before she goes, just tell us how you grew up nope, she doesn't want to share that but uh, brie has a dilemma, a question that she just brought up and it infused so much um fire on in the studio here that we need to talk about it that's probably a good thing.
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: This person doesn't listen to the podcast I was just going to ask if they don't.
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: I know they don't well, I question.
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Oh, the hug question is is it okay to hug the opposite sex like a forward-facing?
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: Hug a front hug instead of a side hug.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Chest to chest, yeah, and I think that's dependent upon the person.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: And the reason I'd say that is, if you're hugging and you're just looking to feel boobs, then that probably isn't the best move, uh, but if, but if you're hugging and you're just there's a way to hug where you're not like smashing up against the person, um, and there's a way to side hugs are great, you know, and maybe you know as the the, the closer, the friendship or whatever.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: It just depends on on where you're at, um with the connection.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: But, yeah, so for me personally, I kind of, I kind of kind of gauge the comfort level of the other person and I, if I've just met them, I kind of go side hugging cause I don't want to be weird about it.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Uh, if, like, if they just lean in for, uh, you know cause they're like, oh, it's so great to see I haven't seen you, or whatever, but I I hug them.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: And you know we have different backgrounds.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: We've got Latin culture here, where I have some sweet grandmas that will launch a massive kiss on my cheek and it's the best.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: I think that's super sweet.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: And then I've got very, you know, the handshakers, you know.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: So you've, I kind of don't want to break a barrier that somebody is uncomfortable with, and so I'm sort of trying to manage that, um, but I do want to show affection in a brotherly way, um, and I think that's important to do.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: I think it's important to initiate affection, uh, because, you know, greet one another with a holy kiss is, I think, an imperative that you have to culturally define of what it is to show affection in a physical way.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: That is not weird.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Does that make sense?
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you think there, pastor Holland?
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think this.
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: So holy kiss.
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: Four commands in the New Testament Romans 16, 16,.
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: Greet one another with a holy kiss.
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: First, Corinthians 16, 20, greet one another with a holy kiss.
• 2:43
  Speaker 4: Second, Corinthians 13, 12, greet one another with a holy kiss.
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: First Thessalonians 5, 26,.
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: Greet all one another with a holy kiss.
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: 2 Corinthians 13, 12, greet one another with a holy kiss.
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: 1 Thessalonians 5, 26,.
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss.
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: Four times in the New Testament.
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: Right, and like it sounds funny, but I feel convicted about this.
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: I'm like what are we doing with handshakes, bro?
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: Am I sinning?
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: Get that out the door.
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: Am I Like I don't kiss anyone except my wife and kids on Sunday?
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah, at my church, me either, and you know, a hug.
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: I think you repent, so you could go well, this is a principle.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: A couple grandmas I give a kiss back to whenever they give me the yeah, Good for you.
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you, you could go take this on.
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: You know, in that culture a holy kiss was an actual kiss.
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: You know, in ours the principle of a holy kiss is like a hug, but it kind of feels like a cop-out.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: And I wonder if we need to initiate some holy kissing.
• 3:35
  Speaker 4: I mean, is there like a reformation that needs to happen here, bringing back the holy kiss?
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: Let me tell you this when I was in Iraq, obviously I was a Christian, but I was with Muslims everywhere.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Right, I would sneak into a house and it was like my informant.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: So I'd go in the dead of the night, wake them up, scare the absolute crap out of them and you've got like seven guys in the room with machine guns in their house.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: But then they would bring out the tea and they would greet me with a holy kiss.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: Now, when I greeted them, I was wearing my helmet and nods, and it was you know the awkward where you drill something like headbutt somebody.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, I took these guys out left and right, not meaning to, but because they went full in holy kiss and I'm not used to it.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: I'm not, and you know their beards all over my face.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: It was totally the weirdest thing.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: However, once I got used to it, I appreciated the closeness I felt to my informants.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: It made me feel closer to them.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, as wild as that may seem, and so I do think there is something powerful to it.
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: I hear that, okay, so one, okay, the full, the front hug thing and like the problem there, like someone's trying to avoid, like temptation, because of a hug which I think is evidence of just like man, it is hard for us to imagine any kind of physical touch that's not sexual Right and so which makes you go?
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: Well, we definitely don't need to be kissing each other, unless maybe the answer is to like.
• 5:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, kissing each other, unless maybe the answer is to like yeah, maybe what we need actually is to be more intentional about healthy, non-sexual physical affection in a familial type of way, and that might help, like actually break down the over sexualization and renormalize non-sexual, yeah, physical.
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: I don't know, maybe the answer here.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: I feel like this, the Maybe the answer here how did we get here?
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: I feel like the question I would like to ask is how did we get here?
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: So I've done some travel around the world and when I had some like not Russian, but just west of Russia friendships like Slovenian or whatever, and like I got kisses on the cheek from those dudes and again it was.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: I was not prepared for that and it was in an American setting, but they were totally that was their culture and I was like I guess we're doing this.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: You know it was, I was not, and okay.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: And then also when I was in Africa, in in Tanzania, um, I was walking along the beach and this Tanzanian man starts holding my hand.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, hold hands everywhere and I was like dying a thousand deaths and I couldn't stop talking.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: I'd be like, well, I guess we're holding hands now.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: This is, you know, not something we do, and I was so weirded out by it that I talked about the whole time.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: But I hung in there because I was like I'm not going to be weird, I'm going to hang in there on this whole hand-holding thing, but it was very difficult because it was so abnormal, and I think that's part of me wonders.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: is it a British and American thing where we've over-sexualized everything and so we've?
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: What is it?
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: My basic theory on pretty much every problem that exists in all societies, everywhere, is like the fathers, it just always goes back to your father and so like I think that's just like.
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: That's somehow it's related to that of fathers not showing affection to their families and their children not showing affection to their wife, not showing loving fatherly affection to their children, not encouraging an environment of loving affection in the home.
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: The father's failure of that has made us all just kind of like you know um, emotional affectionate orphans in a sense where we just don't know how to do this, well mixed with, like, the prevalence of pornography and may you know takes that like we don't know how to do affection, and then we see this overemphasis on sexual stuff, with all the pornography and all the and takes that like we don't know how to do affection, and then we see this overemphasis on sexual stuff with all the pornography and all the overly sexualized media and stuff like that.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: I think that combo probably is what brought us to where we are yeah, because when I think about what people wear, when you go to tropical countries or you go to Africa, they're not wearing much.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: It's not like they know.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: It's not like they have this sense of like modesty, they're just like this is what you do, is what you wear like I'm showing my shoulders.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: I don't care like that kind of thing is like a normalized part of culture, right?
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: yeah, I see what you're saying.
• 7:59
  Speaker 4: So I, just because something happens somewhere doesn't necessarily mean it's the right thing, absolutely sure.
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: So you do have a point, right.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: Right, it's like but in that culture no one's thinking, whoa, I, I'm like, it's not sexualized, it's just whatever.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: Now again, yeah to your point.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: Just because it's in another country doesn't make it right, uh, but that does bring us what is right, yeah and and it may be the existence of, you know an equal and opposite problem of being so familiar.
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: I'm not saying I don't have any particular place in mind.
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: I'm just saying it's possible for a culture where the normalization of not wearing much clothing and there's supposed to be a sense of dignity that's protected by modesty that you could lose in some cultures as well.
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: So, there's a lot of ways you can go wrong with it.
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: Um, I mean, that's how Brazil is How's Brazil?
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, like you go to the beach, it's like G strings everywhere.
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: Okay, and that's just the norm, right.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: That's that seems like.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: Is that over-sexualization, or is that people being normal?
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: That's the hard part to wrap your head around.
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it probably.
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: I mean I don't know the history of it, but I feel like it began as just the norm, yeah, but now it's to a point where, like it's so, everything is so over-sexualized, and it's part of my story is that, like my sexuality was opened up when I was probably like five or six, that like my sexuality was opened up when I was probably like five or six, oh, wow, and that was just, I guess, the norm.
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: You know, it's so in your face and everywhere, that it's just what happens.
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: And so I think to your point, like, just because it happens there and that's the norm, it doesn't make it good or right.
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: And I was going to say too, I definitely agree with it being something that starts with fathers, Because for myself, you know, I had a dad who would show affection, like you know, a hug and sometimes like you know a full hug, but it wasn't like a whole lot to where, like it just wasn't a lot, you know.
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: And so, growing up, like I never hugged no other dudes, and even up until coming to this church hugging a dude, especially like chest to chest, I'm not gonna lie and I'm gonna say it felt gay.
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: But you guys know, zach bice, yeah, that dude hugs, hugs and break your back.
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: And now, after being at this church for so long and having dudes tell me I love you, you, it's the norm to me.
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: I'll hug every guy I meet now because I'm like bro, that's just the way you do it and, to your point, it makes me feel really close to them.
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: And so, even though it's kind of funny talking about a brotherly kiss, I'm like dude, imagine how much closer we would feel to each other if we started greeting with a brotherly kiss.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: I'm saying I'm feeling the Lord's stirring something right now.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: It's funny, but there's so much truth behind it.
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: It's literally commanded four times in the New Testament.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: Does that not stick with you guys.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: No listen, I'm with you.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: So I kissed my dad on the lips when I was a teenager and I didn't even think anything of it and it was just like what you did and I don't know.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: I don't know if that is good, bad or different.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: I was waiting to see if Pablo was going to say gay or not.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: I feel bad now.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: I don't know, it was just my dad, and so I was just like that's just what you did.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: I.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: I feel so bad because my grandpa has mastered the brotherly kiss Like he will go greet, you say goodbye, anyone doesn't matter who you are, and he's immediately going for the lips.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: And every time you have to dodge, but now I feel bad for dodging him.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know it's wild.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: My mom is that way, Like I don't know if she's kissed you.
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she's kissed Grayson right on the lips and he was like— Like a decade ago.
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and he was not ready for that one.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: And that's just my—I grew up like that, and so when I came to Christian culture in the late 90s and I realized oh, I'm the weird one I didn't realize that I had a whole bunch of things that were not normal and I think I crossed everyone's physical boundary lines.
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: But then you read the Bible, yeah, and then I was like maybe.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: I'm doing it right, wow, look at that Anyway.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: But but now to think about kissing a dude like that's been conditioned in me.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's weird.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: Now thankfully, now I kiss my sons.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: I don't kiss them on the lips like my dad did, but I kiss them on their face, their head, their you know all over.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: I don't mind that, Um, and so I think that's something we probably need to institute more yeah, institute like require for membership Institute is like official on stage Brotherly kiss.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: Let's go we're now going to do a man I meet and greet time About to get a whole lot more Juicy, Uncomfortable for some people.
• 12:49
  Speaker 4: Oh man, Come on somebody I know we're like, I mean we're being silly and stuff but I really am thinking about this like.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: But to Pablo's point, the amount of I love you's I hear at our church.
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: I'm really encouraged.
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: That's healthy, that's so good.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: Like dudes say I love you, I don't know if women are doing that, which is kind of interesting I don't think we like you.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: I notice men will say it to someone they just met.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: I think women you have to have a much more intimate friendship with, to just say it unless they come to you with like a crisis, like if I'm on the person and someone comes to me the crisis, I always say, like, say, like I love you, like you're, you know we're here for you, even if I don't know them.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: But if it's just like in passing or hey, nice to meet you, like I never.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: I think we do say.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: The men are saying I love you left, and right All right, check this out.
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: This is from some random website.
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: Okay, here we go.
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: Random website which we know is going to give gospel truth.
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: Here we go.
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: It says the usual interpretation is that the holy kiss itself is not important.
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: The greeting is the thing we're told.
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: It doesn't really matter how you do it.
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: Back then it was a holy kiss.
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: Today it's a handshake.
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: Same thing.
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: Now that seems right until you think about it.
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: A kiss is not the same thing as a handshake.
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: Just ask any teenager.
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: In the Bible, the holy kiss was a sign of love, respect, friendship and honor.
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: It was a mark of innocent affection.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: That's like that.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: Innocent affection is what we are like deprived of.
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: We've seen numerous examples of this sort of kiss in the Bible.
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: Jacob kissed his father Genesis 27.
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: Laban kissed Joseph Genesis 29.
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: Esau kissed Jacob Genesis 33.
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: Joseph kissed his brothers Genesis 45.
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: Aaron kissed Moses, exodus 4.
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: Moses kissed Jethro Exodus 18.
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: Naomi kissed Ruth and Orpah Ruth.
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: 1.
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: David kissed Jonathan.
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: 1 Samuel 20.
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: The father kissed the prodigal son, luke 15.
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: That's a lot of kissing.
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: The LGBTQ crowd is going to have a field day with this one lot of kissing.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: The lgbtq crowd is gonna have a field day with this one.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: Well, but I think that's.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: Let's see.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: The reason why they could, they would, is because they're.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: What they're saying is that all kissing these are not kisses, that's based on a sexual right.
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: All kissing is sexual right, so I.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: what I love about that is those are familial kisses and so, as christians, since we're brothers and sisters in christ, that would be an appropriate response.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but we got to change the culture.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: Man, I think we're at a good start with the I love you's, and hugs.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: But man, I don't know, this might be a reach, but I think it.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: I don't know you can somehow tie this to how separated people are as a whole, like isolated.
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: You know, in a community like we, we've lived at places where we didn't.
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: We lived there for like two years and we didn't know our next door neighbor, right, and I think I don't know you could somehow tie it to that where it's like we're so afraid of something that feels I don't know, uncommon or unnatural, right like going to your neighbor, introducing yourself, getting to know them, and you know I don't know well.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: So let's go back to the original question, which was our like, uh, frontal hugs.
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: I'm like what was the original?
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: question yeah so, and the reason you you brought it up earlier like if you've got large breasts, it's going to be like, oh, it's going to be an awkward hug, right, or it could be is that kind of what we were saying earlier?
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: well, it's like almost impossible to not touch them at all right, and so what do you do then?
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: um like, so what's your plan?
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: Or do you even think about it, or do you think about it now?
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: I think about it now because it was a guy that brought it up to me.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: So now I'm like, oh, surely every guy thinks this way.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: So now, when a guy goes in for a front hug, I'm like, why is he going in for a front hug?
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: Is he thinking about my breath, like, do I give him a front hug?
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: Do I, like, give them the awkward?
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: Oh, I'm only gonna do a side, like I'm overthinking it now to the point where I will never initiate a hug with another man that's not my husband whoa man, the women come up like these ultimatums at the end of like these things, like all right, I'm tired of feeling like I'm in the wrong okay, yeah, um, all right it's good, so I'm just like I just won't go there.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: Okay, fair enough, fair enough all right, all right.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: I have seen women, when they're in the front, hug awkward moment.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: They do the super lean, just arms.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: They'll lean their body over, so their boobs go down and then they connect up here it's all shoulders I've seen that.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: Again, depending on the size of your breast.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: There's no Okay, fair enough, yeah.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: You might like an animal neck hug.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: Okay, good point.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that is a dilemma.
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: All right, there's no command in the Bible to hug anyone Right, so I don't know.
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: I mean, there's one to kiss there is one to give a holy kiss.
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: But no commands for hugs, but if you're struggling with a hug.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: you're going to struggle with a kiss?
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: I don't know Really.
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: A kiss on the cheek Hug equals boobs.
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: Kiss is just, you know, germs.
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: I think when there's something that's not you know, it's a matter of conscience and there's freedom.
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: There's liberty to set up rules for yourself or for other people.
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: Where you're not violating your own conscience and feel like you're not doing something wrong, You're allowed to do that.
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: We can't expect other people, we can't put those rules on other people, but for you personally, you're like I'm just going to give high fives because that's what I'm comfortable with.
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: Everyone can kind of manage and govern themselves in that way, I think.
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: But I think the underlying issue there is just the over-sexualization and the fact that we can't have normal brotherly affection, brotherly-sisterly affection with each other without kind of taking it too far.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: This just in.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: We had a live texter from our studio audience.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: It says this hey, listen, someone like me and that me is someone who has gay desires is screwed without culturally accepted physical affection.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: Touch starved Would be nice if it was normalized more, maybe even help someone in my situation to normalize male affection.
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: Wait, so saying that what would be helpful was more male affection to normalize it, so it wouldn't become this like ooh exciting, whatever, that's what.
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: I'm saying I think if we work more at normalizing innocent affection, it might decrease the amount of like weirdness that some people feel about stuff like a front hug or you know, even like same-sex desire stuff, when you're like, oh actually like there's a sinful desire, but it's also like I just want affection, like not sexual affection, but just like friendship, community touch, a hug, you know, a brotherly kiss, I don't know, does that make sense?
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: It totally makes sense.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: I feel like sure, I just like how do you is that where, like at Eastside Community Church, you're going to have like kiss your neighbor day?
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, like what?
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: how do you institute Kiss your neighbor day?
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: Is that what you said?
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: neighbor day.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: I mean like what, how do you kiss your neighbor day?
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: I mean like, how do you normalize?
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: Like what's the process to normalize?
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: be the change you want to be the change you want to see in the world you just got to start, you know with like a small group of people who agree with you that like all right, and we're just going to do this and have the bible verse memorized.
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: And we're just going to do this and like other people are memorized and we're just gonna do this, and like other people are gonna see it and it's just gonna like catch on, and at some point you probably got to kind of teach through it.
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: Actually, yeah, I don't know if you can.
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: But seriously, though, like it's, it's literally.
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: This might seem like a race, like I said, but going and introducing yourself to your neighbors, having them over for dinner, sharing real life experiences that's not common oh what sorry.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: That's not common, but the more you do it, the less awkward it feels sure, 100 it becomes a way of life right, like I said, when I was in iraq kissing, whenever I greeted my informant, I kissed him every single time, every single.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: It was like hundreds of kisses uh, on you know scraggly beards, uh, which, just even thinking about now, whenever I hug a dude and we touch beards, I'm like you get flashbacks I don't know.
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: Here's your challenge.
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: Kiss right now on camera.
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: I'm not going to put you on pressure on camera.
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: I don't think that's good to press your conscience in that way, but at some point I want you to just surprise me with a holy kiss, alright.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: I'll surprise the holy kiss.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: The problem is what if you mess up and the next thing you know you're kissing on the lips, and then it's really weird like it's nightmarish right.
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: As long as you say no homo afterwards, you're good.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Wow, alright, yeah, okay, I accept that challenge.
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: Alright, just I mean, everybody makes mistakes, nobody's perfect you can't, oh man.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: So what's weird about this?
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: I feel like you know how you're hot under the collar.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: It's so weird to even think about.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: You feel like embarrassed right now.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: It's weird to me, so what's the right word?
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: weird.
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: Anyway, paul felt that with apostolic authority he could command this.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: That is wild.
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: Four times in the New Testament and I just can't stop thinking about it that there's got to be something.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: there Is this where you say no homo at the end.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, all, right, may start there.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, yeah, all right, okay, I'm going to pause on that direction.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: I'm going to go back to our original boob hugging.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: All right, that's way more comfortable to talk about than kissing um.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: So what other like experiences?
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: have you had breathe that have been uncomf like when it comes to you?
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: we started saying that that's way more awkward than talking about dudes giving each other a holy kiss.
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: You ever hear of skit guys no.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, he says uncomf in one of the like you know when you touch hands praying.
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: That makes me feel embarrassed is when I hear that All right, go ahead so give me your uncomfortableness other uncomfortable issues.
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the biggest one, even more than the hugging, was having men reach out to pablo and tell him you need to control what your wife wears to church, because it is causing me to stumble oh gosh I'm so glad he doesn't listen to the.
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: Maybe I should send it to him actually.
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: Okay, okay, so hold on it's also not him.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: This is not a one-time thing.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: It's been at multiple churches no listen, we've had multiple people.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: So um, I'm wearing, I don't know how tight these jeans are.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: Would you consider these tight jeans tight?
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: A little tight.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: They're a little tight for men jeans, all right.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: Sorry, okay, they're a little tight.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: All right, so you get the flares.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: Those are coming back in.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: They're guess jeans this tight and they were turquoise and she was on stage singing and like a guy came up to grayson it was like rec center days, uh, like 10 years plus ago, and he's like, hey, you need to, can't have that girl on stage anymore, she needs to wear something else.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Because those jeans are too sexualized and they're just like green jeans.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: They weren't that tight, they were just normal.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: And I was, and I and I didn't even notice that she was wearing, like you know, as a person worshiping that morning, I didn't even see the jeans.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: You know, it was just like I don't know.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: You were focused on worshiping, yeah.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: So I think, no matter what, something could get you spun up and we need to it's the responsibility of probably both parties.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: You don't want to be over, you don't want to come with lingerie but at the same time, like at some point, like you need to be able to control, uh, what you're um, how you're viewing a woman, right, like that's on you to do that, however, uh.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: So so I think this is I've I've had always talked about this.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: I've had multiple times people have said hey, shouldn't you tell the women at church to be more modest?
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: And that issue will, because what you're saying is, before you're allowed to worship, you have to have a certain level of modesty.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: So that's like the there should be a dress code to get into the church, and like you don't want to create that, uh, where you have an environment where it's like a legalistic thing at the same time.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: as a woman, you want to um um, Be mindful of your appearance.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: You want to be dressed in holiness and not outward adornings, but the inward part of the heart.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: That's how you make yourself beautiful.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: But there's probably a balance there, Wouldn't you say, Holland, that there's a balance there of what it means to not intentionally make people stumble because you're dressing the way you're dressing to get attention, but you're dressing the way you're dressing because that's comfortable or whatever, and you're trying to honor the Lord and everything you do.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: Honor the Lord.
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, I think both there.
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: I think there's responsibility on both sides, and I think that view gets some hate, um, from uh, from both sides.
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: You know men who want to say put all the blame on women for dressing a certain way, or women who are just like men, need to control themselves and gouge their eyes out if they're having a problem, and I think, in reality, you know the Matthew five.
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: Okay, uh, it's both, though I think that to me it's simple Women should dress with modesty and respectable apparel that's what the Bible says and men should practice self-control, and both should be seeking to honor the Lord with their thoughts and their bodies.
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: Exactly, yeah, that might be overly simple right.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: And so then, what does that mean when people have different opinions on what?
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: modesty is.
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: Well, I would also say, like how you worded what came.
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: You know someone saying, Pablo, you need to control what your wife is wearing, because it's making me stumble that right there, like I don't know if that's exactly, if that's exactly how it was worded.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: I think, correct me if I'm wrong one of the times and this is what really irked me is he even went to say I didn't lust after her, but I had to be mindful of where my eyes went.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: Well, you should always have to be mindful of where your eyes went.
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: No matter what like.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: And again, it's not like I'm showing up in crop tops.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: I'm not showing up with everything hanging out.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: Everyone else in the church sees what I wear.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: Compared to how I dressed in high school college, I'm dressing very modest.
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: Okay, so here's where, like my I don't know this might tell me what you think.
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: That's it, let her roll.
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: One, I think you can.
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: You know, we can look back and go hey, I'm not who I used to be, but that's never really what we're supposed to compare ourselves to.
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: We should compare ourselves to the standard of Scripture, not necessarily a past thing I get what you're saying but just in general.
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: Two, it may you know, like I don't know the intention of the person who reached out, and maybe they really had sincere intentions of like I'm seeking the holiness of this church, intentions of like I'm seeking the holiness of this church, and I think you know pablo, this might be an area to you know, I think the way it's, if that's how it's worded like control, what, I'm like one of them was worded that way and it was like I was stunned because, like I said, my shirt came up to my collarbone yeah but,
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: they were able to see that my breasts were on the larger side and it caused them to stumble.
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: So I'm like I don't know what I want to do, so that one was very invalid for that reason.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: I think the other one was also invalid.
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: I had a jacket on.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: That was unzipped, but there was again, unless I'm in a turtleneck.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: Okay so.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: In the middle of summer that person's intention was one that they kind of put it in a way where it's like, well, you allow your wife to do or not do reflects your leadership in a way which I agreed with.
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: And he basically said you know, if we were to pull 100 men in the church, I would say 90% of them would say that they have lusted because of something your wife wore, whatever.
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: And what I told him was is hey, I hear you out.
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: I see that it might be an issue, but the problem is, if we follow that thought all the way to the end, let's just go back to wearing full fit, full body coverings and just eyes showing, and you know I'll put some sunglasses on because somebody might stumble if they see her eyes.
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: That's right, and you know we might have to cut this part out.
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: But it reminds me of a meme where is this live right now?
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: no, okay, good, I don't think so all right, there's a guy and like they're, they're indian or something pakistani, and uh, I don't know.
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: They go to like a dance and then he's like bro, did you see her ankles?
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: well, we went to croatia and there's like this, these stairs that they had to put cement on, and it was because men would stand there to just get a glimpse of women's ankles yeah and because that's all they could see and all the skin that was so the point being is like if you follow that I might stumble because of what she's wearing, then we shouldn't even be seeing any part of a woman's body, cause, who knows, there might be one brother out of a thousand that's going to stumble because they saw a pinky.
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: Man, so I?
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: There's some people, I think, who are upset at the idea that even us, as men, are talking about this topic.
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: So I disagree with that I think you know, like, oh, men shouldn't police what women wear.
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: Okay, fine, police, but like, as a community, we should all be able to speak into each other's lives as the family of Jesus.
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: And so, like I think women should you know, when it comes to like, if there's something I'm doing that's causing women in the church to stumble in some way, you know, even if it's like a different way, the way I speak is whatever that you know.
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: Like, I want to know that, like we should.
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: I think we should have these kinds of conversations, how I guess what I was getting at earlier is like, how it's worded, you know you could argue about, but like I think that is true, we should be able to have conversations about this kind of stuff with each other.
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: But at the same time, I think, like I agree with you and that you can go so far on trying to like police, yeah, police that it's like you know you're now you, now you're being, um, it's getting uh, legalistic, or it's getting beyond what's reasonable or something beyond what scripture says is modest and respectful, I guess what I, I will, I love the fact that he came to you.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: That's, I mean honestly like that.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: We should celebrate that aspect and sent and, as opposed to just have you seen what brie's wearing, like I celebrate that.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: That's really great to me, um.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: And then the next part of that is the fact that you heard him out like there's so much here, and this is why christianity is so great, because you're gonna have people with different levels of comfort levels and all sorts of things, and that's why colossians 3 bear with one another, forgive one another, like as much as up to you, live at peace with everyone.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: You're, you're, you're.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: There's aspects of this where you are wanting to honor the person.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: At the same time, you know who's who gets to be the ultimate, you know, say, authority on this issue.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: You know, ultimately, it should be in your house.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: If you feel comfortable with it, and you are, your wife is honoring you by the way she is dressing then then then it's great, but I do think it's wise to at least hear him out, consider, pray, and then go Lord, how are you leading me?
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: And then, and then you know, when you look at God's word, god's spirit, god's people, I think that's an okay thing for him to bring up.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: And then, as you're doing, I can't think of one time where I felt like I've been, like I'd be like stop wearing sweatpants.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: I'm like that's where.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: I'm like with you.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: I'm like go feminine, I need more feminine.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: That's what.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: I was going to bring up.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: Pastor Plex said stop showing up to church in sweatpants and a hoodie.
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so just to give you a glimpse of how I dress.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like I'm like.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't like listen.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: I did.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: I told her I was like that's hard, I know you're you're going to give them to ministry.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: I think it's awesome, but it looks not that you want to look like another dude, because I want you to express your femininity in what you wear.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: That's kind of where I was going with that, but I will say that this continuously happening is what pushed me into wearing Dude the sweatpants?
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: Yes, and it's what pushed me into.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: At 30, I'm going to get a breast reduction and like it's shaped the way, I do everything Because to me it's like but like that comment from too that there's an element of that.
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: that's like you need to repent.
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: You know like you're that's you need to possess some self-control and need to practice some repentance.
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah that's not yeah.
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: So I think and I will say like.
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: I feel like we're painting him in a bad light and and I know he had good intentions and he was repentful of it- yeah, because like it's not easy for a guy to come to you and tell you like hey, bro, I listed after your wife you know right, and so I'm not trying to paint him in a bad light, I'm trying to like think of every ass, every component yeah, you know what I mean.
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: yeah, um and so and so, like I said this, so he, we had a conversation one time and maybe like a month or two later he kind of brought, brought it up again.
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: And then that's when I told him, like you know, I'll, I'll talk to her, but you know, there's, there's only we can only go so far in this issue.
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: And and Bree told me she was like honestly, I just don't have a lot of clothing Like this is what I have.
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: If, if you want me to change it like we just need to buy something different.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: And, like I said, like depending especially with someone of pablo's height.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: I can look in the mirror and there's no cleavage shown.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if you're taller than me, you can see.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: I didn't even think about that cleavage huh.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: So literally, with a woman of my size top, you literally have to wear something to your collarbone, which we all know how texas he is.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: That's very uncomfortable.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and even then I've had someone come because I was wearing a t-shirt to my collarbone that you could tell.
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: I had a line.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: So it's like, no matter what I do, there will be someone who stumbles and I've I don't feel conviction in the way I dress.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: Pablo doesn't seem to have an issue in the way I dress.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: He will speak up.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: If I wore leggings a couple of days ago and he caught someone looking, he's like stop wearing leggings around here.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: So it's like he will speak up when it's he feels like it's necessary.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: My frustration came with well, I feel bad that I said something about the sweats then, Cause I don't want you to get in the other way of, like you know.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: I mean I think it's good, I like I went and I bought jeans but also I'm in a weird position now that I'm pregnant, like I don't fit in my jeans.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: I don't want to wear jeans.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: I'm leggings or sweatpants, and then it's man yeah, so it goes a lot deeper, and men don't think about that.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: They would rather be like, hey, can you control this?
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Instead of let me look inward.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: And why am I focused on this in church, right, yeah, instead of what's being preached?
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: like the main thing is like man, there's some repentance that needs to happen from him.
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: I'm just saying in general, I don't think that we should just be like, oh, no one ever has any right to tell me.
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: I do think, even though it's uncomfortable and weird and we're going to get it wrong, it's good to encourage each other toward holiness in every aspect of life.
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: But I think you're totally right and that there's so many things that guys don't think about and realize I don't know.
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: Uh, and I guess I'm just saying there's, I think there's responsibility on both sides, right and it's you know and I think in over sexualized culture you're now thinking about a breast reduction, like that's like uh it's not the only reason, but it has played a big part that to me is like oh sad
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: yeah like, uh, like she's gonna have to go under a knife for a doctor to cut her to make her look like something that the world could accept, and I, that I have a problem like that makes me sad for you.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: Like, oh gosh, like that's like the fact that we have such a sexualized culture that you're not even trying to kind of go that route.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: And now here you are.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: So, anyway, I'm sorry, that's like that's not good.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: I feel really bad, that's hard, and um, I want you to know that we are grateful for who you are and I honor every way that you dress, and I want you to know that, um, the Lord, I think, sees you and thinks you're beautiful and, um, I'm just great.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've never even thought about that until you brought up breasts.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: Like I wasn't even thinking, like she's got big boobs.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: I like just never even crossed my mind, and so I think that's where it's like a weird reality.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: You know what?
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: I mean so, um, in a sexualized culture and people have been sexualized, then they see everything as sexualized, and so I'm sorry that you're dealing with that response that makes you want to think I need to change my body to fit in this world.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: So because probably people with no boobs well, I mean, you know, or less boobs aren't thinking about that at all, yeah, yeah, um, okay, well, thanks for sharing that, that's powerful.
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: Um, any other thoughts, pastor Holland?
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: Um, man, I'm, I'm with you on, just like I don't know it turned this way, but I'm just like you're.
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: God gave you your body and, uh, you don't have to worry about what anyone else that, like God's blessed you with a husband and you follow his lead and whatever he says, you know it's like, hey, here's what, here's the way we're going to go on this.
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: Like you don't have to worry about pleasing anyone else but that man and the Lord Jesus Christ, and I'm just grateful for you as a sister in Christ and, yeah, wow.
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: All right, hey, thanks so much for watching.
• 39:13
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• 39:16
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• 39:22
  Speaker 1: We would love to hear from you, from our house to yours.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: Have an awesome week of worship.