Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / Ep1: Joell Dunlap - Square Peg Foundation - CA, USA

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Ep1: Joell Dunlap - Square Peg Foundation - CA, USA · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

• 0:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
• 0:02
  I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.
• 0:03
  New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy.
• 0:07
  Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com.
• 0:11
  You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.
• 0:16
  Here on Equine Assisted World.
• 0:18
  We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and,
• 0:23
  established in the equine assisted field.
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  This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be
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  physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have.
• 0:38
  These lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
• 0:43
  Thank you for being part of the adventure and we hope you enjoy today's show.
• 0:47
  In the following podcast, I had a long chat with my dear friend, Joel Dunlap
• 0:54
  of Square Peg Foundation in California.
• 0:57
  For those of you who don't know this amazing person, Joelle, um,
• 1:00
  about 15 years ago, she founded.
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  An organization dedicated to the people that don't fit into mainstream society
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  and how to help them learn skills and learn to thrive using horses.
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  She was really one of the first people to pioneer this work.
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  Now she works in the fields of autism, trauma, neuropsych, other
• 1:25
  types of mental health, and she has two facilities, one in half Moon
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  Bay, just south of San Francisco.
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  And one in Sonoma, just east of San Francisco in the wine country, and
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  she works all over the world and educates people all over the world.
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  In this amazing work, she combines neuroscience with really
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  good classical horse training.
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  She provides, employment for people with neuropsychiatric , conditions,
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  and she provides basically happiness and joy and the tools to thrive.
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  So without further ado, let's find out how Joel Dunlap does this.
• 2:03
  Joell Dunlap: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
• 2:06
  This is the first one, really?
• 2:09
  Ah, yeah.
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  Cool.
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  Yeah, I have been wanting to do this for the longest time
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  and um, that's why I'm excited.
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  Um, for about the last four or five years, I've just, I think along with everyone
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  else who's working in the field, has watched it suddenly go from a rather
• 2:25
  tight, , perhaps overregulated perhaps.
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  Somewhat limited, uh, field and, and a rather factional field to
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  suddenly a really wide open field.
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  And I think what I and many like us have noticed is that a lot of people
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  who were quietly working away for more than years, I'd say decades, um, their.
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  Has now proved itself and people are now doing studies into them.
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  It's reaching academia and so much of what was on the hippie
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  margins has now in about the last five years come to the mainstream.
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  But it's still a somewhat confusing world in that, well, there seems
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  to be the equine-assisted thing.
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  There seems to be the, , neuropsych thing.
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  There seems to be the, , physical disabilities thing and.
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  many others.
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  And these seem to be existing still to some degree in their own, , galaxies.
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  , but there are a growing number of people out there who see the bigger picture.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  . And, , as we are realizing now, so many people have multiple diagnoses.
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  So many people, , they might have something physical, but they've got
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  something neuropsychological going on.
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  They could have trauma and something physical.
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  Perhaps they've come back from a war zone and they're injured.
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  They could have many multiple layers to a lesser or greater degree.
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  And, , suddenly the, the technologies available seem to me to be
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  rising, to meet this challenge.
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  And I would say that of the people that I have been watching over
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  the past, more than a decade, , be just consistently effective.
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  Would be Joelle Dunlap of Square Peg Foundation in California.
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  So Joelle, I've got you finally in front of me.
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  I'm sitting in Germany, you're sitting there.
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  Um, I want you to tell us who you are and what you do, and then I want to ask
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  you a bunch of questions so that the listeners can get an insight into the
• 4:38
  multifaceted world that you work in.
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  and perhaps get some ideas about how they might explore this world as well.
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  So who are you, Joel ? Uh, I am the co-founder and executive
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  director of Square Peg Foundation.
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  We started in 2004, um, and we called it Square Peg because we wanted to.
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  , we saw a real gap between people who wouldn't thrive in a traditional
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  writing environment and people who also weren't going to fit in, um,
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  in what, at the time, in 2004, was a therapeutic writing environment.
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  And, um, we, we saw a, a.
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  A bunch of people, um, who weren't gonna be served well in either environment.
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  Um, and of course what found us in that space is autism, um,
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  over and over and over again.
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  Um, but our first partner when we started Square Peg was a family homeless shelter
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  in San Francisco, in the Tenderloin, in the roughest part of the city.
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  And they had a really beautiful.
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  Way of looking at the homeless issue.
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  Um, that they wanted to create an environment of family rituals and joy
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  and an experience through the eyes of the child so that the recidivism
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  in autism, or sorry, in, in, in homelessness, um, wasn't repeated
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  generation after generation after generat.
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  and that mentorship was so timely and so helpful to us because it helped us
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  understand the importance of environment, um, and the importance of changing
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  the way somebody saw themselves.
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  Um, and that was, that is a program called Raphael House Family Homeless Shelter.
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  And when you think of a homeless shelter, you don.
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  Think of hopefulness and you don't think of sweetness.
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  , and here's a place where the children, , they all, , read a bedtime
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  story and then lit a candle and then sang their ways back to their
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  rooms to go to bed and create these rituals, , of safety and of sweetness.
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  we learned a lot from them.
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  So, , so here we are in 2023.
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  In 2018, um, we opened up our first satellite organization.
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  So here we are.
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  We'd been operating for 16 years and, , loved what we were doing.
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  , Didn't know how it would scale.
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  You know, this is Silicon Valley and everybody wants to talk
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  about scalability of operations.
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  , , and we didn't plan it this way, the story that I'll share because I think it's,
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  it's interesting just in talking about.
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  How things grow naturally.
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  , we had a woman working for us, Becca Knff.
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  Um, very, very, very, very talented.
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  And , if I had a nickel, if you had a nickel for every resume of every
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  college girl coming out of college who says, you know, I wanna work for
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  a horse boy foundation, or I wanna work for square peg, , we could
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  probably buy a pretty fancy latte
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  But Becca sent that resume and showed up for her first day to
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  volunteer, and within an hour she was wearing a tutu and was back riding.
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  Um, and , we thought, okay, we have a keeper.
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  , so Becca also wanted to pursue, , excellence in being, , a
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  competition dressage writer.
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  So she worked for us.
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  four days a week, and then she commuted an hour and a half north,
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  um, up to Sonoma to ride with a, , a Grand Prix dressage trainer.
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  , a couple, well, actually three days a week.
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  She was working seven days a week.
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  And, , this woman was a, was a, a mentor to her personally and professionally.
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  And, , that woman, , Susan Palmer.
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  Went from diagnosis to gone from breast cancer in four months
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  for very brutal short months.
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  , and it was devastating Rebecca, , and for, , her barn community, , and
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  certainly for her family.
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  And so her widower came to Becca and said, look, , I need you to take over the barn.
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  I need you to.
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  Run the barn for me.
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  So she came to us crying and said, you know, I need to honor Susan and I need
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  to quit working for Cor Peg and I need to go and run Cadence Farm up in Sonoma.
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  And we gave her our blessing and hugs and a going away party and off she went.
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  And, , about six weeks later, she called me and said, , can we have dinner?
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  And I said, well, of course.
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  So she drives an hour and a half south and we order dinner and she starts crying.
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  She says, I don't wanna run a massage barn.
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  And I said, well, what do you wanna do?
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  She said, I, I won't square peg.
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  I need square peg in my life.
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  And I said, well, and this is a very Rupert esque, um, answer.
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  I said, well, let's just turn Cadence Farm into a Scorp satellite.
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  and she said, can we do that?
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  I said, I have no idea, but I have this napkin under my glass of wine and
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  I'm sure someone will lend us a pen.
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  And we started penciling out or panning out how it would work.
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  And that's, that's, that's how our, our satellite operation, , opened.
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  So we did prove that we could scale it and we did prove that we could
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  grow and that we could go into a new community and get the trust of the autism
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  community there and, and start services.
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  So, so, well, you've just said some things which, , for a lot of people
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  in the, uh, equine therapy world would seem to be completely dissonant things.
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  You said you've, in this last couple of minutes, you've said homelessness,
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  you've said, but family rituals of joy, safety, and sweetness.
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  You've said autism, you've said Grand Prix, dressage, . How do
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  all these things come together?
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  , pretty naturally, right?
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  , talk us through it.
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  Well, I think the important thing is, is, is joy and curiosity and exploration.
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  Um, the best of dressage is just that, right?
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  It's, it's partnership and it's, and it's joyfulness.
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  And if it's not joyfulness, you certainly see it and you feel it.
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  and that connection that we seek with the horse when we seek, , excellence
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  in, in horsemanship is always going to be about, about joy and curiosity
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  and communication and ritual, right?
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  Horses, they love a good ritual.
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  they love to know what's coming.
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  That's true.
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  They love that predictability and you certainly learn that
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  in, in the autism world.
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  If you can, if you can create.
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  a joyful place, but that it's so unpredictable sometimes
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  that's destabilizing.
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  and so bringing it back to beautiful ritual, , that, that feels like
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  home, that feels like safety.
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  Um, it all, it all fits in now for many people, , in the horse world, , who
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  look at dressage a little bit of.
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  They equate it with the word dressage.
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  , it's never good enough, you know, it's a bit snooty and so on.
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  How does dressage and autism slash special needs slash equine
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  assisted work come together?
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  What's the connection?
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  The first thing that comes to mind is rhythm, right?
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  If we look at the training scale, rhythm, rhythm, rhythm, rhythm,
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  we are, we're born to a rhythm.
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  The music that we listen to is, you know, is directly connected to.
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  Heart rate.
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  A heart rate of when we feel good, a heart rate of when we feel
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  excited, um, and also our, our gait.
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  , we love rhythm.
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  We are creatures of rhythm and , and horses as well.
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  When they feel good, our creatures of rhythm.
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  When we are rhythmically moving again, we're creating that.
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  That, that joy and that predictability, you know, um, you don't have to be a
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  musician to be able to find the one.
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  Right.
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  The one is home in rhythm.
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  And, , I think, you know what I'm seeing in dressage lately, and even in jumping.
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  is, um, people understanding rhythm and understanding biomechanics so much more.
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  They're understanding that when a horse is compressed in his neck and he's compressed
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  in his back, that it is dressage, right?
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  And we feel it and we see it.
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  Um, and, and the rhythm is the first thing that goes out the window.
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  So when, um, gosh, I, I, I can get lost in the woods on this.
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  Just trying to come back, lead us into the woods originally, lead us
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  into, no, lead us into the woods.
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  I love it.
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  So, , you know, finding, , finding that regulating rhythm, it feels good.
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  And, and why does the rhythm feel good?
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  Let me nail you on that one.
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  So let's, so we're assuming that we've got a horse that's not stress, that
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  we've got a horse that's relaxed.
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  And I'm gonna ask you how you achieve this, um, in a moment, but, , how
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  does this rhythm beyond a certain predictability, um, do good to a human?
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  The other night my husband and I went out to go see live music for
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  the first time in a long time.
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  , between, just the habits that we all built during the, the Covid shutdowns
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  and, and, and the fear of being in groups.
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  And, and we saw the Blind Boys of Alabama, um, which are three old men
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  singing spiritual music with a, with a, with a, with a a, a, a funky backbeat.
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  and it had been so long since I'd seen music with a group and you
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  realize that everybody's breathing and their foot tapping and their
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  head bobbing had all synced up.
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  and you think about any healing tradition, any tribal tradition, it's all based
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  around being in a circle and sinking up in rhythm, generally through song and dance
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  and drumming and whatever that takes.
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  And that's the best of who we are.
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  So why wouldn't we seek that?
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  For anybody who's feeling dysregulated, why wouldn't we go there first?
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  . And is that what you're trying to achieve with the horses?
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  And if so, how are you doing it?
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  Um, well that's, that's the ideal, right?
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  How are you getting the softness?
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  Like what?
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  Talk me through it.
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  Well, the softness, , there has to be some trust between the horse and the person.
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  And, , we we're all now learning, , how quick horses are to size this up of
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  whether or not we're we're trustworth.
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  . , and, so ideally, the person working with the horse, the horse knows well, but
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  that's not always, uh, totally possible.
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  , and spending a lot of time, whether you wanna call it training or working
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  with the horse and seeking that rhythm and, praising for that rhythm.
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  and how are you doing that?
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  Are you doing that from the saddle or are you doing that from the ground?
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  We spend a lot of time on the ground.
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  we spend a lot of time, and I'm sure we'll get into this, but you
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  know, it was, it was through you and IA that we were introduced
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  to the work of the Lenzo family.
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  and they moved us so far forward in the, in the, the, the in-hand work.
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  it so much can be accomplished from the ground and, and working on the
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  ground will make you a better writer.
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  And there's, there's, if I could, if I could bring one message, to the equine
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  group, , I'd like that to be known.
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  What you can do on the lunge, what you can do from the ground, and
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  giving the horse that visual feedback.
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  They're not as visual as we think they are.
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  , but they're, they're still quite visual.
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  And when we're on the horse, when we're riding, they don't get that, that
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  visual, feedback that they're gonna get if we have someone on the ground, whether
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  it's lunging or, or doing in-hand work.
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  Um, so you just, you mentioned the vales there, you mentioned in-hand work.
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  and I was gonna get to mentors in a minute, and you, you, you
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  talk about who your mentors, you.
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  So you've talked about Rafael House.
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  Mm-hmm.
• 17:01
  you also, mentioned now the ERs who, for those people who are listening, the,
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  the ER family in Portugal, Luis Valer is probably, is regarded, I would say,
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  perhaps, I think you'd agree with this.
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  as probably the greatest living exponent of classical i Barack
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  dressage probably alive on the planet.
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  currently, it seems that there's a, a consensus among, among the
• 17:26
  dressage community about this.
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  and I know him, obviously you do too.
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  And he, one of the things that comes across is he his humanity.
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  But of course, he doesn't really travel outside of Portugal much to teach.
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  So when you say the Lenza family, can you talk us through?
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  Who from that family has been training you and your team?
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  How have they been training you and how has that made a difference?
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  Mm gosh.
• 17:53
  Uh, so Luis has three daughters, the youngest daughter,
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  Sophia, travels extensively.
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  I think she's in New Zealand as we speak.
• 18:02
  I think she teaches in at least four and maybe five different languages.
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  I think she can teach in Polish as well.
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  Which is just amazing.
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  Um, and, uh, and then the and then her, her traveling partner
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  and co-train, uh, Gonzalo Leche.
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  Um, the two of them, uh, have been coming out.
• 18:24
  I think the first time I met them was at your place in Elgan and.
• 18:30
  I'm so bad at timelines.
• 18:31
  That was probably what, eight, nine years ago?
• 18:34
  It was the police do scene, I think.
• 18:35
  I think when Ma, I think so.
• 18:37
  still bellowed to Macedon across the AL'S swamps.
• 18:39
  True.
• 18:40
  I think it was.
• 18:40
  Yeah.
• 18:40
  Yeah, yeah.
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  And you a little bit.
• 18:42
  Very nice Mastodon to ride.
• 18:44
  I appreciate that.
• 18:45
  Yes.
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  The mastodons have a beautiful sense of rhythm.
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  Really, really, really rhythmic.
• 18:49
  It's a shame you're not around anymore.
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  It is.
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  It's , so, um, and then, I think it was, 2018, I was able to go to
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  Portugal and spend a week, um, at the Vales and, and, and we had two
• 19:03
  days of terrible, terrible, terrible.
• 19:06
  Rain and windstorms, that were so bad.
• 19:08
  Even in their, their covered school, there was water running
• 19:12
  down the hill and rushing.
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  and, and here's, you know, master Lenzo with a, a giant push broom
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  and trying to, to, you know, move the water and it didn't work.
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  And so, you know, in true Portuguese tradition, we all just went back
• 19:24
  to the house and ate lunch for hours and hours and hours, and,
• 19:27
  which they were gonna do anyway.
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  But, he was gracious enough to let me interview him for about three hours,
• 19:35
  uh, until all of the batteries ran out.
• 19:37
  Um, and just spending that intimate time with him.
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  , the first question I asked him, just as kind of a warmup was, you know,
• 19:44
  what did you have for breakfast?
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  And he spins it into this philosophical, beautiful treatise on, on, on Boche.
• 19:54
  Um, What a, what a joy.
• 19:56
  . Right.
• 19:57
  So, , yeah, that mentorship has been, uh, such a gift.
• 20:02
  What would you say it's done, you said in terms of providing rhythm and softness
• 20:08
  and a wellbeing through that mm-hmm.
• 20:11
  , uh, through for the, for your, the, the people that you serve.
• 20:14
  Mm-hmm.
• 20:14
  , what would you say started for your horses?
• 20:16
  Mm.
• 20:17
  Well, and we haven't even touched on, on, um, Joel's particular, Brand of insanity.
• 20:24
  Um, oh, we're going.
• 20:25
  Believe me, , people need to know your particular brand of
• 20:29
  insanity because they will go wtf.
• 20:32
  And I'll go.
• 20:33
  Yeah.
• 20:33
  Yes.
• 20:34
  So yeah.
• 20:34
  What, let, we'll go to the insanity in a minute.
• 20:39
  What's it done for this insane crew?
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  Uh,
• 20:46
  they're sweet.
• 20:47
  They're sweet, sweet, sweet and soft.
• 20:51
  Um, and these are horses that generally come in with not just
• 20:55
  tension, but , some gnarly injuries, bone on bone injuries, um, muscle
• 21:01
  imbalances, , from their, their, their field of expertise and what they've
• 21:06
  been bred for hundreds of years to do.
• 21:10
  They just get soft, um, soft in the body, soft in the brain, in
• 21:15
  the, not like me, soft in the brain, but , you know what I mean?
• 21:18
  Soft in the Yeah.
• 21:20
  I'm just taking a hole for myself.
• 21:21
  But the softness, emotional as well as Yeah.
• 21:26
  Um, absolutely.
• 21:27
  Okay.
• 21:27
  Absolutely.
• 21:28
  Do you have any speculation on why that might be, uh, what's going on
• 21:34
  with this in-hand work that creates.
• 21:37
  There's a lot of balancing in the body.
• 21:39
  There's a lot of, , finding, , horses in, in, in a natural setting will
• 21:45
  not very often, um, cross their legs over the midline, um, unless
• 21:51
  they're particularly scared.
• 21:53
  Um, . But very often we find that when a horse with his hind leg steps
• 21:58
  underneath his center of gravity with one hind leg and moves and bends in his
• 22:03
  body, he starts steepening his breath.
• 22:05
  He starts to lengthen the outside of his body.
• 22:08
  He gets softer on the inside.
• 22:10
  Um, and then when we consistently reward that, he starts to seek
• 22:15
  it not just for his own self, but he seeks it in, in pleasing you
• 22:19
  and you being part of that herd.
• 22:22
  Um, I'm never.
• 22:24
  Ever seen anything.
• 22:25
  You know, it used to be that you would just put a horse on the end of a lunch
• 22:28
  line and run them until they're tired and then you know, he'll figure it
• 22:32
  out, which does work to an extent, and it worked for me for a long time.
• 22:37
  But to change that into the horse feeling at home in his body and knowing
• 22:44
  where all his feet are and, and, and.
• 22:48
  Softening through his back before we put a rider on softening through his
• 22:52
  job before anybody's holding a bit.
• 22:55
  Um, they just get sweet and that's the word that just keeps
• 23:00
  coming up so sweet from insane.
• 23:04
  Why are these horses coming insane?
• 23:07
  Where are they coming from?
• 23:09
  These horses that come.
• 23:11
  They're racehorse.
• 23:12
  Oh yeah.
• 23:13
  So they're bred to be fast and there's nothing faster for, you know,
• 23:19
  a mild of five miles than a third.
• 23:21
  So you are putting mm-hmm.
• 23:24
  autistic people.
• 23:25
  Mm-hmm.
• 23:26
  on off the track.
• 23:26
  Thoroughbreds.
• 23:27
  Mm-hmm.
• 23:28
  . Mm-hmm.
• 23:29
  . Okay.
• 23:30
  Now, some people would say that's dangerous.
• 23:32
  Some people would say mm-hmm.
• 23:34
  , oh, you can't do that.
• 23:35
  Mm-hmm.
• 23:36
  , , you shouldn't do that.
• 23:38
  , How can this work?
• 23:41
  Why is it working?
• 23:42
  Because it clearly is working cuz you've been around for 16 years,
• 23:48
  you've got another satellite here.
• 23:51
  Um, I know that you are now, um, under the San Mate Mateo County,
• 23:56
  , medical and mental health thing, which we're gonna go to in a minute.
• 23:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 23:59
  so clearly, clearly, clearly, you're getting results.
• 24:02
  , how can this be?
• 24:03
  Why isn't it dangerous?
• 24:04
  Because a lot, all the naysayers are gonna say, that's not something you should do.
• 24:07
  You shouldn't match up.
• 24:08
  Mm-hmm.
• 24:08
  , thoroughbreds like that.
• 24:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 24:09
  this possible population.
• 24:11
  So talk us through how it works.
• 24:15
  One of the things about a thoroughbred is that he is born with humans in his life.
• 24:27
  Um, Some of the borough courses, , are not handled until they're
• 24:31
  three, four or five years old.
• 24:33
  a racehorse is , he's handled at conception.
• 24:36
  , the rule is you cannot artificially inseminate for a racehorse.
• 24:40
  It has to be a live cover and it has to be witnessed and certified.
• 24:44
  So humans are there from that moment of, of conception.
• 24:50
  Um, and so.
• 24:53
  and, and the good ones.
• 24:55
  and good farms.
• 24:56
  Um, the people handling the horses are experienced horse people, so
• 25:02
  a lot of them come quite trusting.
• 25:04
  Um, I don't think they would run if they didn't trust, um, because
• 25:08
  we ask them for everything and sometimes it costs them everything.
• 25:12
  . , so that's one thing.
• 25:14
  You don't have to teach a thoroughbred to want to please or trust humans, um,
• 25:19
  because they, they, they come that way.
• 25:22
  They've also seen a lot of things at the track, right?
• 25:25
  Bicycles are not new to them.
• 25:27
  Big tractors are not new to them.
• 25:29
  Um, so they do, you know, a four year old horse coming off the track
• 25:33
  has seen a lot of human things.
• 25:37
  And a lot of different locations, I suppose.
• 25:38
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 25:39
  Different environment.
• 25:40
  He's, he's, he's hauled in vans.
• 25:42
  He's been to sales.
• 25:44
  Um, which isn't to say that that isn't traumatic or stressful, um,
• 25:48
  but he has been there, done that.
• 25:51
  And the fact that he's standing in your yard means that he's
• 25:53
  survived it on some level.
• 25:56
  Um, you know, he's worked with a lot of veterinarians.
• 25:59
  Hopefully he is, had his teeth done.
• 26:01
  , and he is had some pretty good nutrition.
• 26:03
  So, so there's.
• 26:05
  as, as the lead up, but he's bred to be really, really fast.
• 26:11
  Um, he's been written fairly roughly, um, and, , you know,
• 26:17
  he's been, he's been taught to lean into contact with the bridal.
• 26:22
  , , you know, if there's one thing I can say about horses, period, is their
• 26:25
  ability to forgive is one of the most soul cleansing and also taxing,
• 26:30
  you know, if you think about it.
• 26:31
  So once you start to spend time with the horse and start to get him feeling good
• 26:37
  in his body, they become so appreciative.
• 26:39
  And so, gosh, I sound like a broken record, but they get sweet.
• 26:44
  Um, and um, I also like to.
• 26:49
  illustrate in a way people can, can understand, you know, the, the importance
• 26:54
  of environment and diet for the horses.
• 26:56
  So if a horse is at the track, you know, we, we have a joke, a racetrack
• 27:01
  saying that you just feed 'em beans and gunpowder, you know, and
• 27:03
  then light a match and off the go,
• 27:06
  Um, so diet and environment, right?
• 27:09
  If you bring home a.
• 27:12
  Border Colly puppy and you live in an apartment and you go to work all day,
• 27:17
  he's probably gonna chew up all your shoes and your credit cards and the walls.
• 27:22
  Um, but if you live on a farm and he goes to work with you all day and he's moving
• 27:27
  all the time, and he is with other dogs.
• 27:30
  people are gonna come to your house at dinnertime and say, how
• 27:33
  come your dog is so well behaved?
• 27:34
  He just sleeps over in the corner and doesn't bother anyone.
• 27:37
  Um, it's the same with the horses when you create the right environment and the right
• 27:41
  diet, um, which helps me and my staff too because I still like to go fast, right?
• 27:47
  So it means that the thoroughbreds you have are reason to get them out and
• 27:51
  go find a good hill and have a proper Gallup and, and move around a little
• 27:55
  bit, um, so that they can regulate.
• 27:58
  Um, and that works for me too.
• 28:00
  So you're saying that, um, you are taking off the track thoroughbreds and through
• 28:04
  a mixture of this classical in-hand work, plus this natural environment.
• 28:11
  Um, cause I know I've seen your California hills that you're working
• 28:14
  on and giving them speed when they need it so that they, correct me if
• 28:21
  I'm wrong, so that they won't need it.
• 28:23
  when they're working with your vulnerable population.
• 28:26
  Mm-hmm.
• 28:26
  because they've got their jollies out basically.
• 28:28
  Is that mm-hmm.
• 28:29
  Mm-hmm.
• 28:29
  , um, means that you end up with a sensitive and giving horse
• 28:34
  that feels good in its body.
• 28:36
  Mm-hmm.
• 28:36
  , um, there's a real beauty in what you're saying in terms of an animal
• 28:44
  that has been, if not broken, or there's some of them, uh, as you say, come
• 28:47
  with injuries in service now being.
• 28:52
  Rehabbed through this work that you do to then go back into service in a way
• 29:00
  that provides it itself with wellbeing.
• 29:05
  There's a story to this that I'd like to unearth, which I
• 29:10
  actually myself don't know.
• 29:11
  Even though I've known you for a while.
• 29:14
  Not everyone knows thoroughbreds.
• 29:15
  Not everyone would be able to do this.
• 29:18
  Um, , let's go back to your earlys.
• 29:24
  Joel, what's your first contact with the horse in your life?
• 29:26
  How did you get into horses?
• 29:30
  , my mother's family were jockeys.
• 29:33
  , some of them very good, some of them really bad, um, and, , but
• 29:40
  all of them violent drunks and.
• 29:46
  . So my mother was terrified of me being anywhere near the track.
• 29:50
  , and she had a rough life growing up and she wanted to create the perfect suburban,
• 29:57
  , upbringing for her family, which she did.
• 30:00
  Um, but it was always horses for me.
• 30:03
  And I can remember I was looking at your questions, um,
• 30:07
  before I, before I dialed up.
• 30:09
  And I can remember being like eight years old at the, at the, at the Park
• 30:16
  Pony ride, you know, where everybody else is three or four years old and I'm
• 30:20
  eight, so I'm bigger than anyone and I'm on this pony on the little track.
• 30:25
  and I am the happiest person on the planet . I just, I can feel it in my body.
• 30:32
  I just, it was just bubbles everywhere and I was so happy.
• 30:37
  I just wanted to cry.
• 30:39
  And, you know, some squeaky little plasticy saddle that I'm sitting
• 30:44
  on, on some poor little pony that's going round and round in circles and.
• 30:50
  , nothing had ever made me so happy.
• 30:53
  And, um, and so I just, whatever I needed to do to be around horses, I did.
• 31:00
  Um, which included, you know, working for lessons or, , there were, there were
• 31:05
  horses on the way to school, , in stables.
• 31:08
  And I remember stuffing.
• 31:11
  Sweatpants underneath my, my Catholic schoolgirl's skirt and
• 31:16
  sneaking into the barn and sitting on their backs while they ate before
• 31:19
  school, um, until I got discovered.
• 31:23
  And there were nobody caught you yet calls to the police?
• 31:26
  Oh, yeah.
• 31:27
  Well, eventually, eventually they did, but um, you know, just being on them and
• 31:32
  smelling them and being with them mm-hmm.
• 31:35
  , , was all I ever wanted.
• 31:36
  And, uh, so by the time I was 18, I was galloping, racehorses at the
• 31:42
  track, much to my mother's chagrin.
• 31:45
  Um, and that was my life for, um, I guess for the next 12 years.
• 31:51
  Yeah.
• 31:52
  Okay.
• 31:53
  Yeah.
• 31:54
  Now, you, you, you, you said that you were galloping racehorses
• 31:58
  on the track from 18 mm-hmm.
• 32:01
  . , I know your story and, , I think it would really help listeners to know your story.
• 32:06
  , because I think there's a link here into service and special needs.
• 32:11
  Something happened to you, um, before that 18th birthday.
• 32:16
  Can you tell us that story?
• 32:18
  Sure.
• 32:19
  , I was, , very unexpectedly a mom at 16.
• 32:23
  , and, and this was where, where, where in the US did that?
• 32:28
  In Sacramento, California.
• 32:29
  Okay.
• 32:29
  Yeah.
• 32:30
  And, , I was an athlete.
• 32:32
  , my son's dad, , was also an athlete.
• 32:34
  Um, we were both swimmers.
• 32:36
  He was into cycling.
• 32:37
  I was, I was running track and cross country, , and we
• 32:40
  were training for triathlons.
• 32:43
  , I somehow thought that that would.
• 32:46
  Act as birth control.
• 32:49
  , . I don't know.
• 32:49
  That sounds like a 16 year old in an outlook.
• 32:51
  Yeah, yeah.
• 32:51
  Doesn't it?
• 32:52
  Yeah.
• 32:52
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 32:53
  So, um, but I was very, very, very lean.
• 32:57
  Um, which probably between that and being 16 years old and quite stressed,
• 33:02
  , contributed to the fact that he, Greg was born nine weeks early, so
• 33:07
  he was a three and a half pound baby.
• 33:09
  Um, with a 50 50 shadow of survival, three and a half pound baby.
• 33:14
  . Mm-hmm.
• 33:15
  . Mm-hmm.
• 33:15
  . And you're a 16 year old mom.
• 33:17
  Mm-hmm.
• 33:17
  with a, with a premature three and a half pound baby.
• 33:21
  Yeah, yeah.
• 33:23
  Yeah.
• 33:24
  What are you looking at?
• 33:24
  How are people reacting to this?
• 33:27
  You know, I didn't have time to notice how anybody was reacting, cuz I was, I
• 33:31
  was busy praying and visiting and trying to figure out how to breastfeed a baby.
• 33:37
  That's on, you know, that's being tube fed.
• 33:41
  , he, he did marvelously.
• 33:44
  He's is to this day, so strong, um, and pulled through beautifully,
• 33:50
  , and came home about a week and a half before his due date
• 33:54
  joel, I've lost you.
• 33:56
  Hold on.
• 33:57
  I got you back.
• 33:58
  All right.
• 33:59
  So where I lost you is you've got, you're 16, you've got a
• 34:07
  premature baby who's come home.
• 34:10
  You're trying to figure out how to breastfeed with a baby that's on a tube.
• 34:17
  You're trying to figure this out and you are riding racehorse
• 34:22
  at the track for a living.
• 34:24
  No, I wasn't.
• 34:25
  Um, I started galloping racehorses when he was about two and a half.
• 34:31
  Yeah, yeah.
• 34:32
  Okay.
• 34:32
  Yeah.
• 34:32
  Cuz that's what all young moms do, is Yeah.
• 34:34
  When, when their kids hit toddler and they, they, they go and get jobs,
• 34:38
  galloping, two year old thoroughbreds.
• 34:40
  Um, which of course not dangerous or anything.
• 34:42
  and, you took no wrecks of course, I'm sure.
• 34:45
  No, no, no.
• 34:46
  Never fell off, right?
• 34:47
  Mm-hmm.
• 34:48
  M how do you go from this teenage mom surviving by galloping racehorse
• 35:01
  on the track, risking your life, eeking out a dirt, poor wage living,
• 35:08
  dealing with incredibly rough human beings and meeting the challenges of
• 35:14
  being a single mom, at a teenage.
• 35:18
  How, how do you put all this together?
• 35:20
  I don't know.
• 35:22
  I don't know.
• 35:23
  I know that's really unsatisfying, but
• 35:25
  I think I realized that, , you know, I was, I was a mom and it
• 35:30
  was a sacred, um, important duty and that I was his one person who
• 35:39
  was ultimately responsible for him.
• 35:44
  If I was dead inside, I'd have nothing to offer him, and I needed
• 35:50
  something that made me alive inside, and that was horses And galloping.
• 35:56
  Racehorse is a way you get paid to have horses in your life
• 36:01
  and you're done by 10 in the.
• 36:04
  , um, you know, and so I could go to school, I could have another job.
• 36:09
  I could be with my son.
• 36:12
  , so, you know, and, in a, in a, in a way that's for better or for worse, followed
• 36:18
  me through my life trying to cram all these responsibilities in my life.
• 36:23
  Um, so, you know, I was thinking, how do I stay alive inside?
• 36:28
  How do I feed a, a, a love and a passion in me and still feed my family?
• 36:34
  And that's what I did.
• 36:35
  So you go from, um, galloping resources on the track.
• 36:40
  Mm-hmm.
• 36:41
  as a single mom, figuring all this out.
• 36:43
  And a certain time later in your life, you enter the therapeutic
• 36:47
  world with Neurodiverse people.
• 36:50
  What's the connection?
• 36:51
  There's a connection there.
• 36:53
  What happens in the course of those intervening years that.
• 36:57
  Connect you from I.
• 36:59
  Is there, is there something to do with what's going on with your child?
• 37:02
  What takes you there?
• 37:06
  My son had a really unique way of learning.
• 37:09
  School was easy for me.
• 37:11
  Um, I was always successful in school.
• 37:15
  Um, I was successful socially.
• 37:18
  Um, I was a mediocre athlete at whatever I tried.
• 37:24
  Um, for Greg it was different and I realized that it wasn't a
• 37:30
  lack of intelligence on his part.
• 37:33
  In fact, far from it, he had this spectacular curiosity
• 37:39
  to want to know how things.
• 37:42
  and he took things apart and he made terrible messes and he lit things on fire.
• 37:48
  And , he, he, he, he just wanted to know, and he had to touch it and he had to
• 37:55
  tear it up and he had to figure it out.
• 37:59
  And, when you are, , a highly active little boy, um, in our
• 38:06
  school system with a very young distracted mom, , you're a problem.
• 38:12
  You're a problem.
• 38:13
  That's all there is to it.
• 38:15
  And he was a problem.
• 38:16
  And you know, I, I like to say that he hated school.
• 38:20
  I think school hated him.
• 38:23
  And that made me so angry that they just were missing this beautiful intelligence.
• 38:33
  And, um, at the time, uh, you know, , the only resource that I
• 38:39
  had for learning anything about learning was the public library.
• 38:44
  And, , so here I am at, you know, now all of 20, 21, 22 years old with a,
• 38:51
  with a, with a child in elementary school who's already failing.
• 38:56
  Um, and you discovered John Holt and unschooling, and you
• 39:00
  start thinking, wait a minute.
• 39:03
  You mean brains aren't designed to sit still in a classroom and be
• 39:06
  shouted at for the next 13 years?
• 39:09
  Um, you know, and John Holt was a nut, but Gotti was a, he was a brilliant nut.
• 39:15
  And then you start looking at Waldorf education, which, you know,
• 39:19
  how is a Gallup girl, um, going to afford a private Waldorf education?
• 39:24
  Here's these people talking about taking children out into gardens and growing
• 39:28
  their own food and, and, and, and I start thinking, no, this is how he learns.
• 39:33
  He learns hands on.
• 39:35
  He learns by experiencing things.
• 39:38
  And as I'm learning this and as I'm watching him, he's failing and he's
• 39:42
  failing and he's being labeled a problem.
• 39:44
  And his behaviors are, , you know, I, how do you take a beautiful eight year
• 39:49
  old and have a depressed, angry child?
• 39:53
  And I got angry and I got protective.
• 39:56
  And I didn't get angrier protected enough because I kept being told he just
• 40:01
  needs to sit down and shut up and do it.
• 40:04
  Um, and , and I just kept getting more curious.
• 40:08
  He taught me so much about learning and so often I would just have to pull
• 40:14
  him completely out of school because it was just torturous for everyone.
• 40:18
  And so here I am working, you know, two and three jobs at the time,
• 40:21
  still working at the racetrack.
• 40:23
  And, um, and I got a homeschool him on top of it.
• 40:28
  , and then I just, I had to rely on other people to, you know, I had to build
• 40:33
  a village for him, , in how to learn.
• 40:36
  And the village that came together was not the one that I expected or
• 40:40
  even wanted, uh, at the racetrack.
• 40:44
  The, , they're all union jobs and the security guards are union cops.
• 40:49
  Most of them semi-retired, a lot of them wounded.
• 40:52
  , San Francisco and Oakland beat cops.
• 40:56
  , I don't like it.
• 40:56
  But to this day, my son loves weapons and he learned how to respect a weapon.
• 41:02
  He learned how to care for a weapon.
• 41:04
  He learned how to handle a weapon from these cops at the racetrack.
• 41:10
  And they were so good to him.
• 41:12
  And the, and the corporation yard, the guys who built things,
• 41:15
  you know, they were kind to him.
• 41:18
  Um, the guys in the video department, cuz I worked in the video department at
• 41:22
  night, showed him how to wire things up.
• 41:25
  Um, it was all hands on and that's where he would thrive and that's
• 41:29
  where he would shine and that's where he would be successful.
• 41:33
  And, , and he's a mechanic today, you know, horse short.
• 41:36
  You learned.
• 41:36
  So you learned how to, create community learning, teaching community.
• 41:43
  I, you said you had to homeschool and you immediately rather
• 41:46
  modestly, leap towards what other people, uh, were teaching your son.
• 41:50
  What did you learn?
• 41:51
  How did you learn to teach?
• 41:53
  Tell us a couple of stories from that.
• 41:55
  H h how did he teach you how to teach a child like him?
• 41:59
  Yeah, so I remember, you know, here, I, I was working at least two jobs.
• 42:05
  I was galloping race horses in the morning, and I was working for
• 42:08
  the racetrack in the afternoon.
• 42:09
  So Mondays and Tuesdays were our days for school and we had to, we had to
• 42:15
  log X amount of hours of schoolwork and turn that into the school district.
• 42:19
  And that's how I was able to, so, so we, we would collectively game the system.
• 42:26
  So we would go to downtown Berkeley and we would go and watch
• 42:30
  a foreign film and eat popcorn.
• 42:33
  And so we would log two hours of reading because we had to read the subtitles.
• 42:39
  Two hours of foreign language and two hours of history.
• 42:42
  We're six hours in and we've had popcorn , you know, . Um, but it was really out
• 42:50
  in movement and you know, playing in the water and building dams and climbing
• 42:55
  trees and reading books that he wanted to hear about and that was humor He loved.
• 43:03
  I think the hitchhikers guy did the galaxy, changed his life,
• 43:06
  you know, suddenly reading wasn't a chore and it wasn't awful.
• 43:08
  It was funny.
• 43:10
  And where did you do this?
• 43:11
  Reading?
• 43:13
  As often as we could outside up in trees, you know, at the beach, wherever you
• 43:19
  climb into the trees with him and read.
• 43:22
  Of course, I still climb trees.
• 43:23
  I love you.
• 43:24
  Say, of course.
• 43:25
  I can tell you, Joel, your average teacher, let alone
• 43:29
  mum does not climb into trees.
• 43:32
  . Well, they're missing something.
• 43:35
  What made you able to follow your child like that?
• 43:40
  , it was probably de desperation.
• 43:42
  Nothing else worked.
• 43:43
  Mm-hmm.
• 43:43
  , you know, if, if, if, if shouting at him to sit down and shut up and
• 43:47
  just do the homework worked, maybe that's where our lives would've been.
• 43:51
  But, you know, the universe had other plans and, um, nothing else worked.
• 43:57
  The only time he was happy.
• 44:00
  And there's a, there's an all hands on science museum in San Francisco.
• 44:06
  Uh, well now there's several, you know, this was right, this
• 44:09
  was 25 years ago, 28 years ago.
• 44:13
  and taking him there and just letting him run loose and touch
• 44:17
  everything and experience things.
• 44:20
  And, and then I remember one time we went to the, the aquarium in San Francisco.
• 44:25
  This was the old one.
• 44:27
  And, so here it is, you know, he's homeschooling and, um, and we're in
• 44:31
  the aquarium and we're down below and there's, there's penguins.
• 44:35
  , you know, in the, in the tank.
• 44:37
  And Greg is running back and forth and the penguins are swimming with
• 44:43
  him and following him back and forth, and he's having the best time.
• 44:46
  And we look over and there's a group of school kids with the teacher,
• 44:50
  you know, who's making them go through and do everything in this
• 44:53
  very quiet sort of organized way.
• 44:56
  And every kid was so desperately jealous, of this little boy who could run with the
• 45:02
  penguins in having the time of his life.
• 45:05
  And suddenly he looked up and he went, I'm the lucky one.
• 45:08
  You know, nobody's telling me.
• 45:09
  And, uh, the penguins were having a great time.
• 45:12
  I was having a great time.
• 45:13
  Greg was having a great time.
• 45:15
  That's how you learn to follow the child.
• 45:17
  You know, you have those little moments where you go,
• 45:19
  oh, this is actually learning.
• 45:23
  So you, you're saying, Greg, to this day, he's doing great.
• 45:26
  He's a mechanic.
• 45:27
  He's, he's a horseshoe.
• 45:29
  Mm-hmm.
• 45:30
  . Mm-hmm.
• 45:31
  , did he become a horseman with you?
• 45:35
  He horses were part of his life, his whole life.
• 45:40
  Um, you know, his first babysitters were horses, right?
• 45:43
  Big thoroughbreds.
• 45:44
  And, but school was continued to be torturous and, and awful for him.
• 45:49
  And so he was in his senior year of high school, and, and he
• 45:55
  just, he just wasn't going to go.
• 45:57
  He knew he wasn't gonna graduate.
• 46:00
  He hated school.
• 46:01
  And, they call this now school refusal, which there wasn't a term then.
• 46:06
  , a dear friend of mine, uh, who had, , a program in Maui, saw us really struggling
• 46:13
  and fighting and fussing and, and, and Greg had really fallen in with a, with
• 46:18
  a bad bunch of kids, who had some pretty, uh, dangerous lifestyle habits.
• 46:24
  Um, and so she just intervened and she said, uh, Greg, why don't
• 46:31
  you come to Maui and work for me?
• 46:34
  And he was, he was only 17 at the time.
• 46:38
  And, uh, and we decided that, that we would, you know, this was a
• 46:42
  friend that I loved and trusted, and she was, she was willing.
• 46:46
  And so he did.
• 46:48
  And he went to Maui and he was working on a horse farm.
• 46:52
  And, uh, her stepson, is on the spectrum and they lived together.
• 46:57
  And, um, and he, he was famous for really violent meltdowns, and that
• 47:04
  was part of j Greg's job was to keep Ryan from hurting himself or others.
• 47:10
  And, um, and it was a hard job.
• 47:13
  And, , and, and the job fell apart.
• 47:16
  so now here's my not quite 18 year old son living out of his car
• 47:20
  in Maui, and, uh, every month.
• 47:24
  Yeah, yeah.
• 47:25
  Right, right.
• 47:27
  Um, and, another friend in Maui called, and uh, and she said, is,
• 47:32
  is Greg still looking for work?
• 47:33
  I said, he is.
• 47:35
  And she said, I, I really need someone to work for me at, at my farm.
• 47:38
  And so I called him because every homeless person in Maui has a cell phone.
• 47:43
  And and I said, you know, look, uh, Jillian needs someone to
• 47:47
  work for her at PE Holo stables.
• 47:49
  And he's like, God, mom, I'm so sick and tired of horses.
• 47:52
  I've been scooping horse manure my whole life, LA la.
• 47:55
  And I said, look, I, I understand it's not a career move, but it's a roof
• 47:58
  over your head and it's a hot meal tonight, so just, just give it a go.
• 48:03
  So he agreed and he called her and he went to work for her and.
• 48:08
  I don't think it was a week later.
• 48:09
  She was an avid polo player.
• 48:13
  And the Maui Polo Club, I think is the oldest continually operating
• 48:18
  polo club in the United States.
• 48:20
  It's a, it's a big scene.
• 48:22
  So she goes out into the, um, first game of the season and, um, somebody
• 48:28
  rides by her the opposite direction, catches her stir up and turns her leg
• 48:32
  completely around the other direction, a really, really violent break.
• 48:37
  And she was laying in the hospital and she says to Greg,
• 48:39
  um, I need you to run everything.
• 48:41
  I need you to, um, run all the lessons, take care of the
• 48:45
  horses, and there's no money.
• 48:48
  Um, but what I do have is I have a string of horses, I have a rig, and I
• 48:53
  have a membership to the Maui Polo Club.
• 48:55
  So you can have my membership for the year if you'll do it.
• 48:59
  From homeless to member of the mouth, from homeless to to member with a full string.
• 49:04
  Yeah.
• 49:05
  Yeah.
• 49:06
  It's such a Maui story.
• 49:08
  Um, and, the, the local pro saw a lot of talent.
• 49:13
  Um, you know, because Greg knew horses very, very, very well from
• 49:17
  the ground and wasn't afraid of hot horses cuz he'd been around racehorses
• 49:20
  his whole life and took him under his wing and, and privately tutored him.
• 49:25
  And, uh, within a year, I think Greg was rated, um, one goal outdoor and
• 49:31
  two goals indoor, which is unheard of.
• 49:35
  And it really changed his life.
• 49:37
  And so the fact that horses would be a turning point in his life where he wanted
• 49:44
  to be healthy and he wanted to be engaged in life, um, was a dream come true for me.
• 49:50
  , he came back to the States and, uh, started working for us.
• 49:55
  Um, adopted a horse off the track, whom, you know, who would
• 50:00
  go through a forest fire for Greg.
• 50:02
  , got involved with a girl who was working for us, who is now, a quite
• 50:06
  accomplished trainer in her own right.
• 50:08
  And that's brings us to today.
• 50:14
  So you follow, you, you're a 16 year old girl, you get pregnant, you end up
• 50:18
  with, uh, somewhat special needs son.
• 50:20
  You at least in terms of what would people now would probably
• 50:24
  call a D d A D H D and mm-hmm.
• 50:26
  , oppositional defiant, and so on and so on.
• 50:28
  So, neurodiverse, you are galloping resources at the track.
• 50:32
  You find a way by following your child reading books and trees going into nature,
• 50:37
  moving and finding community for him.
• 50:41
  Um, To the point where he can find a way for, for horses to bring him from
• 50:47
  homeless to a two gold polo player.
• 50:51
  You then said he came back and started working for us and adopted
• 50:56
  a thoroughbred off the track.
• 50:57
  Somewhere in there you went from single mum galloping race horses on
• 51:03
  the track to having a program, taking off the track thoroughbreds and using
• 51:10
  them therapeutically, fill that gap.
• 51:13
  What happened?
• 51:15
  Um, I think just pretty naturally, when you gallup horses at the track, you start
• 51:21
  to wonder what happens to them afterwards.
• 51:24
  Um, and then you start placing them, um, which is a great
• 51:29
  excuse to do a little competing.
• 51:32
  But then.
• 51:35
  , you, you have these horses that, you know, they're not a 16 one hand gray gelding.
• 51:40
  Um, you know, with a, with a nice balanced body that is going to
• 51:45
  very easily find a, a, a show home.
• 51:47
  You know, what do you do with a, with a one-eyed horse with a big
• 51:50
  ankle, um, who's a fantastic horse who gave you everything on the track?
• 51:56
  How do you help that horse?
• 51:58
  Um, cuz that's gonna be a hard horse to, to place.
• 52:02
  And then I just started thinking about the car bank debt that
• 52:06
  we owe horses as a rule.
• 52:09
  You know, everything that a horse has done for humanity, but in
• 52:13
  particular racehorse because they so willingly give you everything.
• 52:19
  Um, and they do get hurt and they do break down.
• 52:22
  I started.
• 52:23
  Collecting is the wrong word, but there were few horses that I knew were gonna be
• 52:27
  really, really, really tricky to place.
• 52:29
  And um, so what can those horses do?
• 52:36
  And, um, then you realize that you, you've got to have a lot of skill
• 52:41
  with, , with, with keeping them comfortable in their bodies and a lot
• 52:46
  of skill with, with training them so that they're quiet enough in their
• 52:50
  bodies to maybe be a lower level school master, um, or be a good trail horse.
• 52:57
  Um, so it really started with the square peg horses, right?
• 53:01
  The horses that were gonna have a hard time fitting in.
• 53:04
  Um, but I had an experience, I, I I, I started to garner, and I think probably
• 53:14
  just from my experience with, with realizing, that people learn a whole lot
• 53:21
  differently than we were taught to teach.
• 53:24
  Um, so I'd gotten a reputation in, in running a writing school for, for
• 53:28
  working with kids that were gonna be a little more difficult to teach.
• 53:33
  And, um, you know, a friend of mine told me one time, it
• 53:36
  takes no talent to teach talent.
• 53:39
  And I thought, well, that's an interesting, that's
• 53:42
  an interesting challenge.
• 53:43
  Yeah.
• 53:44
  Mm-hmm.
• 53:45
  . Um, and it's certainly true, right?
• 53:47
  If we think about it, and, you know, we, we so often wanna compete for
• 53:52
  those clients who are talented.
• 53:55
  , you know, and, and those clients don't stick around, right?
• 53:58
  Because they get recruited by every other trainer.
• 54:00
  And I thought, I don't wanna do this.
• 54:02
  I really wanna invest in, in students.
• 54:06
  I wanna spend time with and with horses that I wanna spend time with.
• 54:10
  I didn't want to be in a business where I was just turning horses over
• 54:14
  constantly and turning clients over.
• 54:16
  I wanted people that, um, you know, if they wanted to launch into a different
• 54:21
  discipline that I didn't specialize in, that would be great, but it would be, it
• 54:25
  would be a natural movement rather than this, this kind of ugly dog eat dog sort
• 54:31
  of world that I saw in the horse business.
• 54:34
  And, uh, so I got a reputation as a, as a, as a, as an instructor who,
• 54:40
  who had, and I'm putting air quotes around a lot of patients cuz I don't,
• 54:45
  I don't know how anybody can be successful in the horse world unless
• 54:48
  you have some degree of patience and.
• 54:54
  . So this family brought this little girl, uh, out for writing lessons, and
• 55:00
  she was just, she's just a cute little red-haired, freckle face little girl.
• 55:05
  And she was very shy.
• 55:07
  And the parents came to me and said, well, um, she has autism.
• 55:11
  And I said, well, what, what does that mean?
• 55:14
  And they said, it, it, it, it means nothing.
• 55:16
  Just treat her like any other child.
• 55:18
  I said, oh, okay.
• 55:20
  And she was shy and, and we could work around that.
• 55:22
  And she certainly seemed like she liked the horses, even
• 55:25
  if she was afraid of them.
• 55:27
  And, uh, so I had thrown her into a few group lessons and, we were out
• 55:33
  one day a day, I'll never forget.
• 55:37
  And, we're in the ring and, and it's just one of those windy, shitty days.
• 55:43
  And, um, the horses are distracted.
• 55:46
  My voice isn't carrying, so I'm shouting really loud to be heard.
• 55:51
  And, um, and the barn crew decides that they've had it with this
• 55:54
  crappy weather, and they're gonna feed the horses early and go home.
• 55:58
  So now I'm teaching a group lesson and all the horses in the arena can hear
• 56:02
  is the horses in the barn being fed?
• 56:04
  So now they're super distracted.
• 56:06
  So every time this little girl goes by the gate, of course the
• 56:09
  horse just hangs a hard right hand turn to the, to the, to the gate.
• 56:15
  So I do what every riding instructor since the dawn of time says to do.
• 56:19
  And I shout at her to hold her left ring and the horse ducks to the gate.
• 56:25
  So we go around again, and of course the horse ducks to the gate.
• 56:28
  So I did what I was supposed to do, I thought, and that is, shout
• 56:31
  more loudly to hold the left rain.
• 56:36
  So this goes on and it's just getting awful and I'm doing my best.
• 56:40
  I'm shouting so loud.
• 56:42
  . Obviously anybody could understand.
• 56:44
  All you have to do is hold the damn left reign, so I go marching over.
• 56:48
  I like the languages in schools too, right?
• 56:49
  It's true, it's true.
• 56:50
  Yeah.
• 56:51
  Shout louder.
• 56:51
  Yeah, shout louder.
• 56:53
  And, uh, which I was doing, you know, with alacrity, I was,
• 56:57
  I was really holding my line.
• 56:58
  And um, so I ran over and I grabbed the horse's rain and I made a face
• 57:05
  at this beautiful little girl.
• 57:07
  And I, and I looked up at her and I said, all you have to do is hold the left rain.
• 57:14
  And she leans over and she gets almost nose to nose with
• 57:18
  me and she just whispers.
• 57:21
  I'm trying, hi.
• 57:26
  And I, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 57:34
  and the whole, I felt the ground underneath me.
• 57:39
  Just move and shake.
• 57:41
  Yeah.
• 57:41
  Everything changed in that moment.
• 57:43
  Yeah.
• 57:44
  Everything changed and I think that was the moment my life changed and I
• 57:50
  realized this is the service I need to do.
• 57:53
  I need to recognize when someone's trying.
• 57:57
  I need to honor the student way more than I was, and I needed to change
• 58:05
  the way I thought about everything.
• 58:08
  Yeah.
• 58:12
  Now, Joel, well, hats off because not every writing
• 58:14
  instructor would've listened.
• 58:18
  Hmm.
• 58:19
  What made you listen?
• 58:23
  I don't know, but it was so profound.
• 58:25
  It was such a physical experience.
• 58:28
  Mm-hmm.
• 58:30
  . and I realized that I'm not teaching any, I, I don't believe, and I've
• 58:37
  thought about this a lot since then.
• 58:40
  I don't believe that anyone has ever taught anyone anything.
• 58:46
  I think we learn when we decide to learn.
• 58:51
  And if you wear the mantle of teacher, you have to honor that
• 58:59
  every day that all you can do is present information the best you can.
• 59:07
  And the learning is, is, is up to the learner, not the teacher.
• 59:11
  And I think it's the same with horses too.
• 59:13
  You know?
• 59:14
  I mean, how many, how many ways to the pi off are there?
• 59:19
  There's so many ways.
• 59:20
  And every horse is gonna show you their.
• 59:25
  and you can't teach the poff.
• 59:27
  You have to search and look for it and see what happens, and then you can help
• 59:33
  develop it, but you're not teaching it.
• 59:36
  What happened to that little girl?
• 59:38
  Hmm.
• 59:39
  That family?
• 59:41
  I was associated, um, with some families that were close to that family.
• 59:46
  I think at that time, and you can speak to this certainly better than
• 59:52
  I can, at that time, there was very much a very big school of, um, what I
• 59:58
  call the Get over it School of Autism Therapy, . I do remember that school.
• 1:00:04
  And it's still out there.
• 1:00:06
  Yeah.
• 1:00:06
  Yeah.
• 1:00:07
  And, and that family was quite dedicated to that school.
• 1:00:11
  Yeah.
• 1:00:12
  Yeah.
• 1:00:13
  did you manage after that moment where she communicated to you, that she
• 1:00:20
  needed compassion and joy before she was taken away to a world of less joy?
• 1:00:31
  Would you say that you managed to switch her approach with her?
• 1:00:35
  Yeah.
• 1:00:36
  Yeah.
• 1:00:36
  And how, how did you do it?
• 1:00:37
  What did you do?
• 1:00:38
  What did you change?
• 1:00:39
  Well, the first thing I did is I told, uh, I told the parents that
• 1:00:43
  I, I only wanted to work one-on-one.
• 1:00:47
  Um, and then we went to the round pen, you know, where, where we could, we could,
• 1:00:54
  you know, Skinner would call it sterilizing the environment, right?
• 1:00:57
  Where you had less distractions and you had less things that she needed to do.
• 1:01:01
  She didn't need to necessarily steer, she could just.
• 1:01:04
  , you know, feeling the horse going forward and we could, we
• 1:01:07
  could add one element at a time.
• 1:01:10
  Um, and uh, and then I just decided that it had to be more fun.
• 1:01:16
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:16
  just had to be more fun, you know, nobody ever changed the world because
• 1:01:20
  they knew what diagonal to post on.
• 1:01:22
  Like, it's, it's never actually made the world any better, . Um, uh, but
• 1:01:30
  you know, that was, that was early on, but it was how, how was definitely
• 1:01:33
  how before we go, cause it's a really interesting point cause the, the listeners
• 1:01:37
  don't know where you've gotten to.
• 1:01:39
  Now we will get there because it's worth hanging with this, anyone who's
• 1:01:43
  listening because, Joel's program is for sure, uh, I'd say it's probably
• 1:01:52
  one of the, it's in the top 10 in the world, um, in terms of its
• 1:01:56
  effectiveness, , with Neurodiverse people.
• 1:02:00
  . , and we'll go into why that is.
• 1:02:01
  So how did you make it more fun?
• 1:02:05
  How did you make it more joyful?
• 1:02:07
  What did you do?
• 1:02:08
  What did you change?
• 1:02:10
  I changed me, right?
• 1:02:11
  I changed the focus or the intention that who cares about this
• 1:02:17
  academic world of riding a horse?
• 1:02:20
  Let's, let's just enjoy it.
• 1:02:22
  What do you like about the horse?
• 1:02:23
  Which horse do you like?
• 1:02:25
  What is he, you know, is he funny?
• 1:02:27
  Is he sweet?
• 1:02:28
  Or when you're scared, you know, what does he do that's scary?
• 1:02:32
  So it was, it was an invitation to having conversations about not just what
• 1:02:38
  the horse was, but who the horse was.
• 1:02:40
  So personalizing the horse, I think was, was something that
• 1:02:44
  came pretty naturally to me.
• 1:02:46
  But, you know, when you, when you find yourself running a, a riding
• 1:02:49
  school, you know, the numbers add up.
• 1:02:51
  And if you can get six horses, six kids and horses in a lesson,
• 1:02:55
  you know, you can make a living.
• 1:02:57
  , but making it way more personal.
• 1:03:00
  Um, and then, and, and, and then, and then fun.
• 1:03:04
  You know, do you think the horse is having fun?
• 1:03:06
  Well, what could the horse do that's having fun?
• 1:03:09
  Um, and that started to change everything and it just gave me so
• 1:03:12
  much freedom to do something way more interesting than some type of
• 1:03:18
  an academic writing school, you know?
• 1:03:20
  Which then I later learned, came out of a military tradition.
• 1:03:24
  That's how I came up.
• 1:03:25
  You know, I was shouted at and screamed at and told how awful I was.
• 1:03:29
  I mean, I did my time there and, and just, um, and, and I'm grateful
• 1:03:34
  actually to those teachers because, because it helped me understand what
• 1:03:40
  I didn't want in a writing school.
• 1:03:42
  And in those moments where I'm shouting to hold the left reign thinking.
• 1:03:48
  . Well, this is, this is no good.
• 1:03:50
  This isn't what I want.
• 1:03:52
  So before we move on from where this girl changed you to where you are now, um,
• 1:04:00
  which is an impressive, uh, climb, does a memory stand out from this girl before she
• 1:04:09
  left your life where it did become fun?
• 1:04:12
  Where, where, where, where it became healing?
• 1:04:15
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:04:16
  . Mm-hmm.
• 1:04:17
  . Well, what happened was, um, because I'd been quite a bit more successful
• 1:04:24
  with this, with this girl, autism family just started coming in, um,
• 1:04:30
  and some of whom are still in my life, and that was 20 some odd years ago.
• 1:04:36
  Yeah.
• 1:04:39
  Uh, and so.
• 1:04:40
  it became one of the few places that she could go where she felt successful
• 1:04:45
  and that that was healing for her.
• 1:04:47
  It was healing for me.
• 1:04:49
  You know, any teacher who hears that and who doesn't get really turned on
• 1:04:54
  by that and say, wow, somebody who, somebody really wants to be here.
• 1:05:01
  This is the place they'd rather be than anywhere else.
• 1:05:04
  So, and this girl learned how to operate your off the track thoroughbreds.
• 1:05:11
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:05:12
  . Mm-hmm.
• 1:05:12
  . Mm-hmm.
• 1:05:15
  . That's not too shabby.
• 1:05:18
  Yeah.
• 1:05:19
  Yeah.
• 1:05:19
  Now this is you running a small survival writing school.
• 1:05:24
  Suddenly you're getting overwhelmed with people, with children with autism.
• 1:05:31
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:05:32
  , because you did well with this autistic guy.
• 1:05:34
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:05:34
  . Mm-hmm.
• 1:05:37
  . , I know that you, uh, have several methods that you use.
• 1:05:42
  I know that you use Horse Point Method.
• 1:05:44
  I know that you use Movement Method.
• 1:05:45
  I know that you train horses in hand with the Baz, old classical burop thing.
• 1:05:51
  What are your go-to methods and what are not your go-to methods?
• 1:05:59
  Basically, what is square peg?
• 1:06:01
  Yeah.
• 1:06:01
  You know, method is such a tricky word, right?
• 1:06:04
  Because it seems restrictive.
• 1:06:07
  I like to think of it, and I think you and I have had long conversations
• 1:06:12
  about this, that the thing that really excited me about Horse
• 1:06:17
  Boy was that it was a framework.
• 1:06:20
  I felt like it gave.
• 1:06:23
  A set of principles that I could hang flesh and muscles
• 1:06:26
  and clothes and jewelry off of.
• 1:06:29
  Um, and that's what I liked because, , you know, I'm just not good at methods.
• 1:06:35
  I'm not, because every horse, you know, if, if, if you don't
• 1:06:39
  like unpredictability probably shouldn't be in the horse business.
• 1:06:43
  you know, but for people with short attention spans like us,
• 1:06:47
  um, it works really well, right?
• 1:06:49
  We're diligence.
• 1:06:50
  We, we want to be adaptive, we want to, to roll with what's happening today.
• 1:06:55
  Um, and, and when you've got rigidity, right, that's gonna break.
• 1:06:59
  Um, and so having the flexibility of a framework, which
• 1:07:05
  one of those big portions of the framework, like the, the,
• 1:07:09
  the encompassing bit is joy.
• 1:07:12
  You know, certainly self-advocacy is our North star.
• 1:07:17
  , but what propels that is, is joy and fun.
• 1:07:21
  And if it's not fun, um, there's a million other things and therapies
• 1:07:26
  and activities that most of our families are participating
• 1:07:29
  in, , that aren't based in fun.
• 1:07:33
  Yeah.
• 1:07:33
  Um, and, and we know the brain science now that it pays off, it pays off.
• 1:07:39
  And like I said, if sitting around and shouting at people
• 1:07:41
  worked better, maybe I'd do it.
• 1:07:44
  But all things being equal, let's have fun.
• 1:07:47
  And, , so there's a lot of silliness around here.
• 1:07:50
  There's a lot of creativity and self-expression.
• 1:07:53
  there's a lot of costuming and dressing up around here.
• 1:07:57
  , there's a lot of music, you know.
• 1:07:59
  Um, and it's so great to, you know, the technology that we have now with
• 1:08:04
  Bluetooth speakers that we can put on a, on a, , On a saddle and clip to it.
• 1:08:09
  Uh, and if you can't do that, you know, um, we've got a
• 1:08:12
  horse that plays the ukulele.
• 1:08:14
  I don't know, have you seen those videos?
• 1:08:16
  Yeah, I have not seen those videos.
• 1:08:18
  Oh, I think I would like to see those videos.
• 1:08:20
  Yes.
• 1:08:20
  Yeah, you should see those videos.
• 1:08:21
  I mean, listeners would probably like to see those videos.
• 1:08:23
  Your horses playing uk.
• 1:08:24
  Anyone?
• 1:08:25
  Yeah.
• 1:08:25
  All in favor say aye.
• 1:08:26
  Yeah, that's a resounding aye.
• 1:08:28
  . Ok.
• 1:08:30
  He's got chops.
• 1:08:31
  Yeah.
• 1:08:31
  Ok.
• 1:08:32
  Yeah, he's got chops.
• 1:08:33
  Um, and so, you know, and then we start giggling around with whether or not we
• 1:08:38
  should, , you know, we've got horses that love to pick things up and shake them.
• 1:08:41
  So we we're, we've gotta start a band.
• 1:08:43
  Um, so we Yeah.
• 1:08:47
  But you say that you, uh, don't like methods, , but you also said, you
• 1:08:52
  know, the neuroscience to it now.
• 1:08:54
  Yeah.
• 1:08:54
  Yeah.
• 1:08:55
  Um, and I also see you diligently.
• 1:09:01
  Following the old master system of training horses with the lunch,
• 1:09:06
  with the in-hand work, and then the assisted in-hand work in the manner
• 1:09:10
  of the old masters, which clearly is getting great results with these
• 1:09:13
  horses, both from the horses' point of view and for the kids' point of view.
• 1:09:17
  So there seems to be, to me, an interesting mix there of freedom and
• 1:09:23
  pre-ex expression mixed with hard science, mixed with humbling yourself
• 1:09:29
  to an ancient tradition that works.
• 1:09:32
  And somehow in the midst of all those three apparently contradictory things,
• 1:09:38
  the square peg delivers up what
• 1:09:41
  sweetness.
• 1:09:43
  I know, but it's, it's what it comes down to, it's sweetness.
• 1:09:48
  Um, the horse feels good, the people are feeling good, the parents.
• 1:09:53
  , you know, a a as a parent, there's nothing sweeter than the sound of your
• 1:09:58
  child laughing and enjoying themselves.
• 1:10:00
  And what is the child learning?
• 1:10:02
  What are they learning while they're in this sweet state?
• 1:10:06
  Give me some examples.
• 1:10:09
  Well, we wanna focus on what they wanna learn.
• 1:10:12
  And a lot of it is self-expression.
• 1:10:14
  A lot of it is self-expression.
• 1:10:16
  And I think, you know what we hear, if you give the child the opportunity to
• 1:10:23
  share their interests, they're reinforcing things that they're struggling to learn.
• 1:10:28
  we had, uh, uh, during Covid, uh, and we've got a little video somewhere, , we
• 1:10:34
  had, we had one girl, dress herself up as a, , a bottle of hand sanitizer,
• 1:10:43
  And then, and then, uh, uh, uh, and then she painted the coronavirus
• 1:10:49
  molecule on, um, on a horse.
• 1:10:53
  And then she, uh, bathed him, right?
• 1:10:57
  And so that was her way of washing away the coronavirus
• 1:11:01
  and being part of the cure.
• 1:11:04
  And no longer, you know, part of being scared.
• 1:11:08
  Um, it's pretty out of the box.
• 1:11:09
  Pretty weird, , right up there with a horse playing ukulele.
• 1:11:13
  Okay.
• 1:11:14
  So, um, I, let's say I bring my child to you mm-hmm.
• 1:11:18
  , and I say, um, okay.
• 1:11:22
  It's clear that you can get communication going.
• 1:11:25
  , I have a child that doesn't wanna communicate.
• 1:11:26
  Now I wanna take it further.
• 1:11:28
  I'd like my child, child to, , get comfortable with maths.
• 1:11:31
  They don't seem to mm-hmm.
• 1:11:32
  math.
• 1:11:32
  What's your approach to that?
• 1:11:33
  What, what are you doing?
• 1:11:36
  Well, I mean, first we have to figure out what the math level
• 1:11:39
  of the, of the learner is.
• 1:11:41
  Um, and also remember, music is math.
• 1:11:45
  Right?
• 1:11:46
  Right.
• 1:11:46
  We can, we, we've got, we've got, we've got eight counts and you can
• 1:11:51
  factor that into, you know, four sets of two, two sets of four, eight ones,
• 1:11:56
  one, eight, you know, an infinite, uh, an unending numbers of zeros.
• 1:12:01
  And, and playing.
• 1:12:03
  playing with the rhythm of the horse.
• 1:12:05
  And, and music.
• 1:12:07
  That's one easy one.
• 1:12:08
  That's one of my favorite ones.
• 1:12:10
  And also reminding, um, reminding parents that listening to music is math,
• 1:12:17
  enjoying music is math, dance is math.
• 1:12:20
  Um, I think, do you remember, um, we were in Thailand and there was a, there
• 1:12:26
  was a boy playing guitar and his mother was so upset and he was, he was a, he
• 1:12:31
  was self-taught from YouTube videos and his mother was incensed that he wasn't
• 1:12:36
  learning math , you know, and helping him understand, oh my gosh, you know, this is
• 1:12:42
  all that, was, was, was helpful for her.
• 1:12:45
  So, So at some point, yes, there is the performative academics that you
• 1:12:52
  do to make a family feel happier.
• 1:12:55
  Um, but the stealthy academics are way more challenging and way more fun.
• 1:13:02
  And, um, and I would say when I, when it comes to math and math concepts,
• 1:13:07
  um, either, either music or, or the actual physics, you know, jumping off
• 1:13:13
  into the stream and building dams and red diverting water and thinking about
• 1:13:18
  how much pressure it's gonna take to make the water flow down the hill.
• 1:13:21
  Um, so you'll get the child off the horse doing things like this.
• 1:13:26
  Sure.
• 1:13:27
  Showing them the physics, then rebounding them, having them, uh, working the
• 1:13:32
  rhythm of the horse, counting them and putting the numbers together.
• 1:13:34
  Then they're with math, both on the horse, both off the horse
• 1:13:37
  in that natural environment.
• 1:13:38
  It's, it's, mm-hmm.
• 1:13:40
  , would that be a typical Yeah, very typical.
• 1:13:43
  Very typical.
• 1:13:44
  I think I would maybe want to send my child to that.
• 1:13:46
  Um, for, for, for, for a lot of reading books on horses too, you know.
• 1:13:50
  Okay.
• 1:13:51
  And, and talking about books that we're reading, you know, normalizing
• 1:13:55
  the fact that people read and enjoy books can be very educational.
• 1:14:00
  You know, when a book is otherwise just this torturous thing that people
• 1:14:04
  make you do instead, all of a sudden you're around a bunch of people and
• 1:14:07
  they're all excited to talk about books.
• 1:14:09
  Well, guess what?
• 1:14:09
  That child wants to read a book so he can bring it back next week and
• 1:14:13
  participate in that conversation.
• 1:14:15
  You talked about getting the kid off the horse.
• 1:14:17
  Would you say that that is as important when you are doing equine assisted stuff?
• 1:14:22
  Percent at the work with the horse?
• 1:14:24
  Yeah.
• 1:14:24
  Anytime you get attached to how much time or what percentage of the time
• 1:14:33
  the person spends on the horse, um, you've already, you've already lost.
• 1:14:38
  Not that, it's, not that it's a a, a zero sum game, but, um, you know, because
• 1:14:43
  then you're, you're forcing someone on a horse and, you know, even the, the square
• 1:14:47
  peg name is about not forcing a fit.
• 1:14:50
  Right.
• 1:14:50
  Because if you, if you force a square peg into a round hole, you're, you're
• 1:14:55
  forcing that fit and you're creating, and then you're not only creating
• 1:14:59
  resistance, but you're destroying the peg and possibly the hole.
• 1:15:03
  So I'm a child, it's just a mess I get mm-hmm.
• 1:15:05
  , uh, brought to your place.
• 1:15:07
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:15:07
  parents say, I want to try the sequin therapy thing.
• 1:15:10
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:15:11
  , it's clear that I have want nothing to do with a horse.
• 1:15:14
  Mm.
• 1:15:15
  What are you gonna do?
• 1:15:17
  We are, are going to, um, make sure that we have a, a, a volunteer,
• 1:15:23
  um, who is close enough with the horse, but then the instructor, the
• 1:15:27
  employee, is going to figure out.
• 1:15:30
  What you like, what you are interested in, and we're going to be really, really,
• 1:15:36
  really sensitive to how close we can bring and involve the horse in that activity.
• 1:15:42
  And that may take weeks.
• 1:15:45
  Um, and then somebody else is going to be talking to the parent and explaining
• 1:15:49
  to them what's going on so that they feel involved in it and they don't
• 1:15:54
  feel like they're wasting their time.
• 1:15:56
  Or helping that parent just go for a walk and, and spend some time alone or
• 1:16:01
  go with a friend to the coffee shop.
• 1:16:04
  Um, so you will find, you will find out the child's interests, follow those
• 1:16:07
  interests, whether they're horse or not.
• 1:16:10
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:16:10
  , have the horse sort of available mm-hmm.
• 1:16:13
  mm-hmm.
• 1:16:13
  to let the child grow into Yeah.
• 1:16:16
  And naturally find either funny or, or very natural ways to involve
• 1:16:22
  the horse in the conversation.
• 1:16:24
  . Um, and a lot of times, and I think the, the rescue aspect of the horses plays
• 1:16:29
  into that because you'll find a softness and a, and a, and a and a care that
• 1:16:35
  most people will have for an animal.
• 1:16:38
  Um, and this, this horse needs help.
• 1:16:40
  And, you know, he's a recovering ukulele addict and, um,
• 1:16:46
  So it can be silly, it can be ridiculous.
• 1:16:49
  Um, but laughter's a beautiful way to, to ipel learning.
• 1:16:56
  When, um, the client, let's say, cuz they could be a child,
• 1:17:04
  they could be a young adult.
• 1:17:05
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:17:06
  , um, reaches a certain level of engagement with the horse.
• 1:17:11
  You've built this relationship.
• 1:17:13
  Do you involve them as trainer?
• 1:17:15
  absolutely.
• 1:17:16
  Tell me how you do that.
• 1:17:17
  And it's, I, well, it's empowering, right?
• 1:17:20
  I'm not just using this horse as a beast of burden.
• 1:17:22
  I'm helping this horse feel better in his body.
• 1:17:25
  I'm helping this horse learn new things.
• 1:17:27
  Um, we also, we do a lot of trick training around here and liberty too, which can
• 1:17:32
  be really, really, really empowering for somebody who's constantly being told
• 1:17:37
  what to do, to be put in the position to get 1100 pounds of x-ray horse to
• 1:17:43
  do something silly, like step up on a pedestal or bow or smile or lay down.
• 1:17:48
  Um, we've got one who loves to lay down now, and so we can get people
• 1:17:53
  to sit on him and then get back up.
• 1:17:54
  And it's a really thrilling, big feeling.
• 1:17:57
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:17:58
  Um, so, you know, also taking what the horse's natural interest is too.
• 1:18:03
  , again, this was a horse that when he was frustrated, would
• 1:18:06
  throw himself on the ground.
• 1:18:07
  That's a problem in training him for what we're doing, but we
• 1:18:10
  turned it into something sweet.
• 1:18:12
  and, uh, and now he'll lay down on Q and you can get on
• 1:18:17
  him and he'll stand back up.
• 1:18:19
  Um, so again, you know, this just suits my own a d d Dilatant type
• 1:18:26
  brain, um, to try and just roll with whatever, whatever being presented.
• 1:18:31
  Do you find that a lot of your clients actually make quite good horse trainers?
• 1:18:35
  Mm, I do.
• 1:18:36
  I do.
• 1:18:37
  I do.
• 1:18:37
  Why do you think cutting?
• 1:18:38
  Cause they're, you know, one of the, part of autism is a brutal honesty, right?
• 1:18:46
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:18:47
  and horses love honesty, and they love consistency.
• 1:18:50
  They're so much happier with that than, um, than with other people
• 1:18:55
  who have, you know, fuzzy, weird rules that change all the time.
• 1:19:00
  , you know, somebody who's, who's very clear.
• 1:19:03
  . Um, and no, you don't get the treat or whatever until you do x and holds
• 1:19:08
  boundaries, um, is refreshing to a horse.
• 1:19:11
  , and also just, just the joy.
• 1:19:14
  Um, you know, it feels good when the horse does these groovy fun things and,
• 1:19:21
  and we can play around and say, look, you know, this is a bullfighting move
• 1:19:25
  and this is how a bullfighting horse feels, and now you feel him dancing.
• 1:19:29
  Um, and, and then you'll find that, that, you know, the, the people
• 1:19:35
  that we serve start asking for it.
• 1:19:37
  Well, he feels a little sticky today.
• 1:19:39
  Can we do the bullfighting stuff?
• 1:19:42
  You know, nobody wants to kick a horse around in circles, and we all have horses
• 1:19:46
  that some days just don't wanna do it.
• 1:19:48
  So when he gets in that flowy feel, it feels good.
• 1:19:53
  Yeah, feels good.
• 1:19:56
  Yeah.
• 1:19:56
  There's no joy in just.
• 1:19:58
  brutalizing horse and the ribcage.
• 1:20:00
  Given that the horse world can be a pretty rough world, um, obviously the
• 1:20:09
  racetrack, obviously the sport world, but also, you know, the riding teacher world,
• 1:20:15
  as you say, it comes from the military.
• 1:20:16
  So shouting at people and so on, um, unless they go through an evolution like
• 1:20:21
  yours, um, within the therapy world and the equine assisted world, what would
• 1:20:26
  you, what changes would you like to see?
• 1:20:29
  What would you like to see more of?
• 1:20:31
  Have you seen the study that just came out this week out of Cornell
• 1:20:34
  about, um, uh, they've put e e g, um, little helmets on horses?
• 1:20:41
  No, I have not.
• 1:20:42
  Tell me about it.
• 1:20:43
  Oh, I will.
• 1:20:44
  It's um, I made some notes here.
• 1:20:47
  I'll just read you these two sentences because cuz they're significant.
• 1:20:51
  Um, in answering the question, so it says, horses and stables showed an average of
• 1:20:56
  two and a half times more right hemisphere gamma waves than those living in open
• 1:21:01
  fields with other horses in people.
• 1:21:04
  Such waves are often a sign of anxiety, distraction, and depression.
• 1:21:08
  The horses that spent most of their time out in the open fields showed
• 1:21:12
  twice as many left hemisphere theta waves on average, which is generally
• 1:21:17
  a sign of calm and attentive mind.
• 1:21:20
  Um, I think paying attention to the environment and the social needs that
• 1:21:25
  our horses have, um, before delving into to doing, making sure that the horse's
• 1:21:32
  social and exercise needs are attended to before expecting them to participate
• 1:21:40
  in a healing modality is what I'd like to see more of in the equine therapy world.
• 1:21:45
  I guess that's logical if the, if the horse is supposed
• 1:21:48
  to, uh, transfer wellbeing.
• 1:21:53
  Yeah.
• 1:21:53
  Yeah.
• 1:21:54
  If the horse is not in wellbeing Yeah.
• 1:21:57
  How are they going to do that?
• 1:21:59
  Well, and you know, you introduced me to, um, uh, Nina at Coleman Fry,
• 1:22:04
  who's been doing so much of the studies on the permission-based horsemanship
• 1:22:08
  in the, in the equine guided field.
• 1:22:11
  And, um, you know, at the time when she started that, she, I
• 1:22:14
  think she took a lot of heat.
• 1:22:16
  And it's nice to see, um, people recognizing that if you, if you, if
• 1:22:23
  you're not attending to the horses' social and physical needs, um, it's just plain
• 1:22:28
  dangerous to ask him, to, to interact with, with people who need healing.
• 1:22:32
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:22:33
  , I agree.
• 1:22:34
  You know, we were talking about brain science earlier too, for, for those,
• 1:22:37
  um, listeners who don't know when a horse goes in soft collection,
• 1:22:42
  and it rocks the rider's hips.
• 1:22:44
  It fills the rider with a, uh, feel good hormone called oxytocin, which also
• 1:22:50
  happens to be the communication hormone.
• 1:22:54
  So if you have someone who's in a high level of anxiety, you're
• 1:22:58
  filling them with a feel good hormone and a hormone that wants them to,
• 1:23:01
  makes them want to communicate.
• 1:23:03
  And then when they move and problem solve, which is the balancing, um, a protein
• 1:23:09
  is produced in the brain called bdnf, brain derived neurotrophic factor, which
• 1:23:16
  over time working with neuroscientists, we've, we've obviously found out,
• 1:23:19
  you know, is, can be transferred for neuroplasticity, um, in people.
• 1:23:27
  do you find that this same process works for the horse?
• 1:23:33
  Do you feel that the horse is getting oxytocin as well?
• 1:23:36
  When you're working him in the this way, do you feel the horse
• 1:23:38
  is getting B D N F as well?
• 1:23:40
  And if so, how is that, how is that, uh, making life better both for
• 1:23:47
  that horse and for whatever client is interacting with that horse?
• 1:23:53
  The studies aren't that far along, with the horses, but it would certainly seem
• 1:24:02
  that, uh, that the horses are regulated.
• 1:24:06
  Um, you know, what do we look for in a horse if we're, if we're
• 1:24:12
  judging in a hunter course, right?
• 1:24:14
  We're looking for this horse that's.
• 1:24:17
  Soft over his back, that where his, his neck and his shoulders meet.
• 1:24:22
  he, he doesn't have a lot of tension that his legs swing evenly.
• 1:24:27
  Um, that he, he has a soft gaze, that his ears are even and pointed forward.
• 1:24:35
  All of those things indicate, , you know, a horse that, that is, is
• 1:24:39
  regulated and whether or not, um, that translates as, as oxytocin.
• 1:24:46
  we don't know yet, but we certainly see on the outside of the horse, a horse
• 1:24:50
  that is regulated and feeling good.
• 1:24:53
  Um, We can translate that into our own bodies, and we certainly feel it.
• 1:24:57
  You know, any rider, any rider knows the difference between a horse that is
• 1:25:02
  stressed and uneven as opposed to a horse.
• 1:25:06
  That's, that's, you know, even just going down the trail, right?
• 1:25:09
  That, that head bobbing, swinging, let's go somewhere, curiosity
• 1:25:14
  as opposed to the Jesus Christ, we gotta go back to the barn.
• 1:25:17
  This is awful.
• 1:25:18
  You know?
• 1:25:19
  Um, yeah.
• 1:25:21
  You don't, you don't have to be a horseman to feel that.
• 1:25:23
  You just have to be, have a heartbeat.
• 1:25:26
  What about, what about neuroplasticity?
• 1:25:28
  Um, brain change, positive brain change.
• 1:25:30
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:25:31
  , what positive brain change do you, do you, would you see, you see,
• 1:25:34
  would you say, see this in the horse?
• 1:25:36
  Absolutely.
• 1:25:37
  And, and again, you know, you, what I've seen with the in-hand work when,
• 1:25:44
  when it's done skillfully, um, is, is that, the uptake of information.
• 1:25:51
  so quick.
• 1:25:52
  Uh, we are having horses learn faster now that we're five or six
• 1:25:58
  years into using the Lenzo method than I've ever, ever imagined.
• 1:26:02
  Um, you know, the, the, the group we have between the two farms, we have 26
• 1:26:08
  horses right now, never ever had as good a group of horses as we have right now.
• 1:26:14
  And these are, you know, these are 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 year old thoroughbreds and,
• 1:26:19
  you know, really grouchy 21 year old thoroughbreds too, with a lot of injuries.
• 1:26:24
  Um, and they're, they're coming up and learning faster and faster and faster.
• 1:26:28
  It, it just, it, it, it blows me away.
• 1:26:31
  So, you know, so the proof is in the pudding at the end of the day.
• 1:26:37
  Um, and so it, it, it, you can draw a pretty straight line in between.
• 1:26:43
  doing good in hand and lunging work, and a horse, a horse's learning
• 1:26:48
  curve, and neuroplasticity and being able to tolerate, um, more stressful
• 1:26:54
  situations before, you know, before just having a refusal or whatever that is.
• 1:27:00
  It's what, it's what I see and I, I, I'm pretty confident
• 1:27:04
  that the science will play out.
• 1:27:06
  And so it's really nice that they're, you know, again, that's why I loved
• 1:27:09
  this study from, from Cornell is that they're, they're finally, um, they're
• 1:27:14
  measuring brainwaves on, on horses.
• 1:27:17
  They're regulated and it, you know, uh, we all know that an anxious,
• 1:27:23
  distracted, and depressed mind doesn't pick up or retain information that well.
• 1:27:27
  And there used to be an old cowboy saying that says, you know, you can, you can
• 1:27:31
  whoop a horse into understanding, but you're gonna have to do it again tomorrow.
• 1:27:35
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:27:36
  , right.
• 1:27:37
  . And um, that's a very rough way of saying it.
• 1:27:40
  Um, but, you know, but, but I came from that rough school of, of
• 1:27:45
  horsemanship and we did, and you had to do it over and over and over and
• 1:27:49
  over again until that was an accident.
• 1:27:51
  Yeah.
• 1:27:51
  Until there was an accident.
• 1:27:53
  Yeah.
• 1:27:53
  Or until the horse just gave up.
• 1:27:55
  Yeah.
• 1:27:55
  Yeah.
• 1:27:56
  And we thought I was training, we thought I was trading.
• 1:27:58
  Well, we were told to do it.
• 1:27:59
  Yeah.
• 1:27:59
  We were, we were, we were told to do it that hard school.
• 1:28:01
  Yeah.
• 1:28:02
  We were told to do it.
• 1:28:02
  Yeah.
• 1:28:03
  But I think we all observed that it didn't really work.
• 1:28:07
  didn't really work.
• 1:28:09
  . If it did, we wouldn't be looking for other things.
• 1:28:12
  But you mentioned Lenzer method.
• 1:28:14
  , I, , I will put a, for those of you who are listening who listen to that,
• 1:28:18
  I'll put a, a web link at the end of this for that, for the ER family, and
• 1:28:22
  the, this classical work that they do in hand, um, I'll make sure that that's
• 1:28:27
  there in the links at the end of this.
• 1:28:29
  Um, so we've gone from your backyard.
• 1:28:36
  off the track thoroughbred thing to now here you are, you are receiving
• 1:28:43
  regular grants from the Off the Track Thoroughbred Association.
• 1:28:45
  You are receiving awards from them.
• 1:28:48
  You are, a registered health provider now with San Mateo County, is that correct?
• 1:28:53
  . Mm-hmm.
• 1:28:53
  Talk to me about, about that for mental health.
• 1:28:55
  How, how has that played out?
• 1:28:58
  , so, , San Mateo County Mental Health has engaged us with a contract to
• 1:29:03
  provide, um, equine assisted mental health services, uh, for the county.
• 1:29:08
  So what we did, , was we did a series of retreats for the mental health providers
• 1:29:14
  where we actually brought them out for a full day long sensory based, , day
• 1:29:20
  of helping them build resilient skills.
• 1:29:22
  And at the end of the day, um, we did, , what, what in horse boy work
• 1:29:27
  we called sensory work, which was putting them on the horses body to
• 1:29:31
  body in different positions that of course the children have shown us.
• 1:29:35
  , and getting them a feeling of being supported and up on the horses in these,
• 1:29:40
  in these very vulnerable positions.
• 1:29:43
  , and for a lot of people, a significant amount, it's a really emotional experience
• 1:29:49
  and people who have been around horses our whole lives and grew up around
• 1:29:54
  horses, um, it doesn't feel that special to us because that's how we spent
• 1:29:59
  time on our ponies, you know, laying backwards on our pony out in the field.
• 1:30:03
  And if we rolled off, you know, you rolled into the grass and you giggled
• 1:30:06
  and you laughed and you dropped your book, or, um, you know, we would sit
• 1:30:10
  two and three on a horse and, you know, somebody's up on his neck and somebody's.
• 1:30:15
  . but for people who aren't around horses, this is, this is life changing.
• 1:30:22
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:30:22
  . Um, and so to give them that experience and then, we we set it up with
• 1:30:28
  the therapist where they have the opportunity to either come with their
• 1:30:32
  client or whether they send the client here and we're supporting the, the
• 1:30:36
  therapeutic goals, for that person.
• 1:30:39
  , and , we ended up doing a lot of intense services for a youth program
• 1:30:45
  that's kind of a quasi, um, it's kind of the space between foster placement
• 1:30:51
  and juvenile detention facility.
• 1:30:53
  These are kids that kind of are in that space in between and, . , it's
• 1:30:58
  a residential program and, uh, and we are seeing those kids come out,
• 1:31:04
  um, two and three times a week, and they're now volunteering with us too.
• 1:31:08
  And they have been really, really, really good in working with our autism families.
• 1:31:14
  Um, so it's been a really nice integration.
• 1:31:18
  we're also, working on piloting a program for the San Mateo County, , department
• 1:31:23
  of Education to do resilience workshops, including the somatic stuff, um, for,
• 1:31:29
  for teachers experiencing burnout.
• 1:31:32
  So pretty exciting stuff.
• 1:31:35
  So this is mental health beyond autism, and this is mental health
• 1:31:40
  of mental health care providers in a weird way, like in hand work for
• 1:31:44
  the horse in hand, in brain work for the, for the, for the, for the car.
• 1:31:50
  You, how do you deal with burnout, Joel?
• 1:31:53
  I mean, you were a, a stressed out single mom.
• 1:31:56
  You were a teenage, stressed out single mom, galloping resources
• 1:31:59
  on the track, risking your life.
• 1:32:00
  You had to start a whole organization from scratch.
• 1:32:03
  You have built it now to one of the biggest, um, you know,
• 1:32:08
  equine uh, facilities in, in, certainly in California, and you're
• 1:32:12
  right there in Silicon Valley.
• 1:32:13
  You've got two locations now.
• 1:32:16
  Um, I know that there's another rather cool location coming up,
• 1:32:20
  which I hope you'll tell us, right?
• 1:32:21
  How I've seen you, I, I, I know the intensity of this work and
• 1:32:28
  everything that goes into it.
• 1:32:29
  The horse training, not to mention the fundraising, not to mention the money.
• 1:32:32
  How do you yourself deal with burnout?
• 1:32:35
  What's your, what's your advice?
• 1:32:39
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:32:40
  for the people in this field?
• 1:32:42
  Ray Burnout, I think,
• 1:32:45
  , doing something creative outside of, of whether it's, you
• 1:32:51
  know, horses still turn me on.
• 1:32:52
  I'm so lucky that way.
• 1:32:54
  But, you know, I have times where I need a break.
• 1:32:56
  , and, , , but, uh, but writing, even journaling is a creative
• 1:33:03
  endeavor that, , that helps.
• 1:33:05
  , cooking.
• 1:33:05
  I love cooking.
• 1:33:06
  It's a creative challenge.
• 1:33:09
  , , and I've gotten quite into cold water, sea swimming here, , which I
• 1:33:13
  really, really, really, really enjoy.
• 1:33:16
  Um, but I'm so lucky to do what I love doing and,, and I have a pretty
• 1:33:25
  strong meditation practice too.
• 1:33:28
  Talk to me about the creative writing.
• 1:33:32
  Well, I finally finished a novel.
• 1:33:35
  I've got, um, I've got a, , a screenplay sketched out that just needs all of
• 1:33:42
  the bells and whistles hung on it.
• 1:33:44
  And that's a, that's a, that's a, a creative form that I never expected that
• 1:33:48
  I was gonna, and it, and it just came.
• 1:33:51
  So it's kind of fun.
• 1:33:52
  And if it turns into nothing, who cares?
• 1:33:54
  I'm, I'm enjoying the process.
• 1:33:56
  , and, , and I'm working on a, on a book that is the square peg
• 1:34:01
  story that Trafalgar Square has given me a handshake deal for.
• 1:34:05
  That said that they would love first option on that.
• 1:34:08
  And , and I'm about 60,000 words in, so I've got a pretty
• 1:34:12
  good go at a first draft.
• 1:34:15
  , yeah, I dunno where you find the time.
• 1:34:19
  Tell us about the novel.
• 1:34:20
  What's it about?
• 1:34:21
  Can we buy it?
• 1:34:21
  Can we read it?
• 1:34:22
  Sure, sure.
• 1:34:23
  You can buy it as a, , a Kindle at a dam fine hand.com.
• 1:34:28
  Is that the name of the book?
• 1:34:29
  , that is the name of the book, A dam Fine hand.
• 1:34:31
  , what's a That's great name.
• 1:34:33
  It's, , fun title.
• 1:34:35
  It is a fun title.
• 1:34:36
  , what's the story?
• 1:34:36
  What's it about?
• 1:34:37
  The story is, uh, it is, it's a, a fictional telling, of,
• 1:34:42
  uh, it's, it's really, it's the girl and horse story, right?
• 1:34:46
  It's, which has been told over and over again.
• 1:34:48
  But, um, it's started as a short story where I was really fascinated.
• 1:34:55
  by thinking about black beauty as a story.
• 1:34:57
  Black Beauty was the first time anybody told a story from
• 1:35:01
  the animal's point of view.
• 1:35:03
  And Black Beauty launched the movement that created the, the S P C A.
• 1:35:08
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:35:08
  So a story really can change the world.
• 1:35:11
  And that story did, and I thought just as a creative exercise, I wanted
• 1:35:16
  to see what would happen if I got in the mind of a horse and took him
• 1:35:20
  through the journey of going from the racetrack to the Slaughter pipeline.
• 1:35:26
  Hmm.
• 1:35:27
  And, um, what a lot of people don't understand is, uh, I, I very much
• 1:35:32
  appreciate the, the, the efforts of the Humane Society, but what Humane Society
• 1:35:37
  did, , about 10 years ago, was that they outlawed slaughter in the United States.
• 1:35:43
  , which sounds like a, a real win.
• 1:35:46
  What it did was that it forced the slaughter to go across the border
• 1:35:50
  to Mexico and Canada, and the transport of animals across those
• 1:35:55
  borders is unregulated and the slaughter houses are unregulated.
• 1:35:59
  And it unfortunately created a pipeline of suffering, but is spectacular.
• 1:36:05
  , so, you know, if you're signing a petition, read the whole petition.
• 1:36:10
  , not that I'm advocating that we need slaughterhouses or that we need to
• 1:36:14
  slaughter horses, um, but you know, if we're, if we're euthanizing horses,
• 1:36:20
  which any horseman has to do, We just, we have to think about the
• 1:36:24
  compassionate way to do it rather than kicking the can down the road.
• 1:36:28
  And I wanted to tell that story and I thought that telling that story from
• 1:36:32
  the horse's point of view was the only really effective way to do it.
• 1:36:35
  So a damn fine hand started as a short story of that horse
• 1:36:40
  going through that experience.
• 1:36:42
  , and I named the horse via Condiss, which is go with God.
• 1:36:46
  And I realized that this horse was the best Buddhist that I'd ever met.
• 1:36:50
  that alone created in my life, that he truly lived in the
• 1:36:54
  moment, in the here and now.
• 1:36:55
  And he lived with true forgiveness.
• 1:36:58
  , and the story grew from there.
• 1:37:00
  Grew from characters in that story, um, to the people in his life who
• 1:37:06
  surrounded him and what their stories.
• 1:37:09
  and we can, we can, how do we order this book?
• 1:37:11
  How can we get this book?
• 1:37:12
  You can go to a damn fine hand.com and purchase a Kindle version of the
• 1:37:18
  book if you'd like to download it.
• 1:37:19
  Or you can contact, um, oh my gosh, I've forgotten the name of the
• 1:37:26
  bookstore here in town, because that's where my mind is right now.
• 1:37:31
  Give me a minute and I'll think of it, or I'll send it to you and we
• 1:37:33
  can put it in, send us, we'll put it in the links, but@downtimehand.com.
• 1:37:36
  I think.
• 1:37:37
  We'll, we'll help, we'll put that, we'll put that there too.
• 1:37:39
  Yeah.
• 1:37:40
  Um, one of the things with burnout, , that I find interesting
• 1:37:44
  is that we're surprised by it.
• 1:37:47
  Hmm.
• 1:37:48
  Right.
• 1:37:49
  And we're outraged by it.
• 1:37:50
  It's like, oh my God, I can't believe I burned, you know, it's like,
• 1:37:52
  well, of course one burned out.
• 1:37:54
  You know?
• 1:37:55
  And of course, one burns out regularly and often and, um, it,
• 1:38:00
  it, and fires need to be re-lit.
• 1:38:02
  I, I, I.
• 1:38:05
  I say this as if it was obvious, but of course, you know, I myself had to
• 1:38:09
  spend 30 years before I tumbled to this.
• 1:38:12
  Um, that of course burnout's inevitable and , in fact is often I think proof
• 1:38:21
  that you're doing very good work.
• 1:38:22
  Now, mums burnout because they're great moms, , people burn out in
• 1:38:26
  their jobs cuz they're working very hard and, and and doing a good job.
• 1:38:28
  And, but obviously in, in, in this line of work with equine, anything equine,
• 1:38:35
  but particularly equine with vulnerable human populations, not to mention
• 1:38:39
  vulnerable equine populations, which of course you do, you also have this
• 1:38:44
  responsibility to keep everybody safe.
• 1:38:46
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:38:47
  And so into the bargain on top of how exhausting and demanding and
• 1:38:52
  absorbing and amazing and interesting and all these things that work
• 1:38:55
  is, there's also this underlying stress constantly of, I, I must.
• 1:39:01
  Keep everybody safe in a, in an environment that has many, many
• 1:39:05
  inherent risks, um, and take responsibility for those risks.
• 1:39:09
  So what often surprises me is that we have no, no training has offered
• 1:39:16
  us, or no mentorship has offered us, whether it's from our parents or in
• 1:39:19
  school or in college later, or, uh, that prepares us for the inevitability
• 1:39:25
  of burnout and almost allows us to make friends with burnout and to say mm-hmm.
• 1:39:30
  mm-hmm.
• 1:39:30
  from time to time you will burn out.
• 1:39:32
  And that's okay, because really that's just says now you need a pause
• 1:39:37
  between the last awesome thing and the next awesome thing that you're
• 1:39:39
  gonna take on, you know, even, even Hercules rest between the 12 tasks.
• 1:39:43
  And, , so given that, , what's your advice for, particularly for younger
• 1:39:52
  people coming into this field?
• 1:39:54
  Um, because a lot of people come into it, obviously, with a lot of altruism as as,
• 1:39:58
  as one should, altruism is a good thing.
• 1:40:00
  , and then they of course get surprised.
• 1:40:02
  What's your advice to someone going into the field for how to thrive?
• 1:40:09
  help me pronounce his name because your French is way more sophisticated.
• 1:40:13
  Albert Camu camu you, you youu, you, you hit it right first Camu.
• 1:40:18
  Okay.
• 1:40:19
  Um, like a camel with a Ooh , A camel with a Ooh . A uh, uh, wrote an essay,
• 1:40:29
  , called The Myth of Sisyphus, , that I'm a nerd and I love essays and,
• 1:40:36
  um, it's the most beautiful story.
• 1:40:42
  And, and, and write Sisyphus.
• 1:40:46
  That was his, his his, his sentence right, is to roll this boulder
• 1:40:51
  up to the top of the hill and it rolls back down every time.
• 1:40:54
  And he's, he's destined to have to do this over and over and over and over again.
• 1:41:01
  And, uh, what Kamoo does is he said, what if we imagine Sisyphus is happy in his
• 1:41:09
  job, that it's the natural, normal thing.
• 1:41:12
  Of course, the Boulder rail rolled down the hill, it's supposed to
• 1:41:16
  roll down the hill, and now he knows exactly what he needs to do.
• 1:41:21
  And so he stands at the top of the hill and he watches that boulder down and
• 1:41:25
  he laughs and he says, ah, I gotta go back down the hill and get the boulder.
• 1:41:32
  That to me, is the most beautiful anti burnout story.
• 1:41:36
  There he is, and it, ah, and I review it.
• 1:41:39
  Interesting.
• 1:41:39
  I review it pretty regularly.
• 1:41:41
  Thank you for the tip bright.
• 1:41:42
  So the rolling up of the.
• 1:41:44
  The boulder is its own art form to be read the rolling up.
• 1:41:48
  He knows what his work is.
• 1:41:50
  Yeah, right.
• 1:41:50
  He knows exactly what he has to do.
• 1:41:52
  And how beautiful is that?
• 1:41:53
  To know exactly what you have to do.
• 1:41:55
  And perhaps with every time he rolls it up, he notices more nuances of
• 1:41:58
  the stone or more nuances of the vegetation, or strengthen his body,
• 1:42:03
  or he chooses to be happy at his task.
• 1:42:08
  He chooses to find something interest, he chooses to find some difference,
• 1:42:13
  something to learn something about it.
• 1:42:16
  He chooses to be happy that he knows exactly what he needs to do.
• 1:42:20
  He has a choice and he chooses happiness.
• 1:42:22
  A lovely, lovely metaphor.
• 1:42:24
  I'm so gonna steal this.
• 1:42:26
  Um, yeah.
• 1:42:28
  Enjoy it.
• 1:42:28
  Thank you.
• 1:42:29
  , because the, you know, obviously in all of our line of work, we're
• 1:42:32
  dealing with burnout, whether it's ourselves or people we're working
• 1:42:34
  with, or workshops we're giving or, you know, blah, even with horses.
• 1:42:39
  Um, but yes.
• 1:42:41
  . It's true.
• 1:42:41
  We do not stop to consider.
• 1:42:43
  Thank you for bringing this to our attention.
• 1:42:46
  We do not stop to consider that the beauty of starting again from scratch.
• 1:42:53
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:42:53
  . Mm-hmm.
• 1:42:54
  every time.
• 1:42:56
  Um, like I know this is a writer.
• 1:42:58
  , when I write a new book, it really doesn't matter how many books I've written.
• 1:43:01
  It doesn't matter if they were successful.
• 1:43:03
  Is that, that you are starting from the beginning every time and there's
• 1:43:07
  this feeling of, oh, I thought I knew how to write and now it's like, ah,
• 1:43:12
  it feels like rolling above up out.
• 1:43:14
  Um, interestingly, I do not have that reaction when I'm starting a new horses.
• 1:43:19
  I always have that thing of, oh, here I go again.
• 1:43:22
  Interesting.
• 1:43:22
  You know, you know.
• 1:43:23
  , but what I've had to learn to do with writing is to say to myself when it.
• 1:43:32
  Sian
• 1:43:36
  Sian with the camels, with an, when it feels that way.
• 1:43:43
  Um, it's just to put one, I call it putting one word in front of the
• 1:43:46
  other, saying, well, mm-hmm , it's maybe be rubbish now, but it will
• 1:43:50
  not become good until it exists.
• 1:43:52
  So let it exist as rubbish and then I can make it good later.
• 1:43:56
  Um, we don't give ourselves that permission, do we?
• 1:44:01
  We we gotta be perfect every time.
• 1:44:03
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:44:03
  , that's where, that's where the stressors comes in, in, in, in dressers.
• 1:44:06
  Well, you didn't execute that thing perfect as well.
• 1:44:08
  Of course I didn't.
• 1:44:09
  Cause I'm going through a learning curve, you know, . How, how could
• 1:44:12
  I, how could I possibly, you know?
• 1:44:14
  Um, and by the way, I never will actually.
• 1:44:15
  I'd like to move in that direction, but none of us will ever achieve perfection.
• 1:44:19
  Um, and of course the joy is killed.
• 1:44:21
  And you've talked about joy a lot and I love that you've brought into the
• 1:44:26
  system sub . Um, Boulder rolling uphill thing that, that, that could actually be
• 1:44:33
  really joyful and to, to consider that.
• 1:44:36
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:44:37
  rather than saying, this burnout thing is a dragon.
• 1:44:40
  Ima slay, like, this autism thing is a dragon Ima slay.
• 1:44:43
  We know.
• 1:44:43
  Well, that will never work.
• 1:44:44
  Yeah.
• 1:44:44
  The autism is a perfectly viable way to go through life.
• 1:44:46
  Otherwise, temple Grandin would not have, or the degrees she had and hasn't not
• 1:44:51
  have published all the books she has.
• 1:44:52
  And it's clearly, she's very successful and autistic.
• 1:44:55
  So the, the burnout is the burn is the autism problems, the burnout, the
• 1:44:59
  problem, no suffering is the problem.
• 1:45:01
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:45:01
  . Mm-hmm , that's the problem.
• 1:45:02
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:45:03
  , the, the suffering brain, cortisol, stress hormone learning brain is the happy brain.
• 1:45:08
  The unhappy brain is not the learning brain.
• 1:45:11
  , but I love how you've just brought that to our attention.
• 1:45:15
  So how would you help an ambitious and impatient young
• 1:45:23
  person going into this field?
• 1:45:26
  , um, and, and perfectionistic because horse people are, , to come to
• 1:45:30
  that , , outlook and, um, perspective.
• 1:45:35
  Give us a tip.
• 1:45:37
  I think, I think journaling is really critical, um, because it gives you an
• 1:45:45
  opportunity to make that choice, right?
• 1:45:49
  Of course, the boulder r rolled down the hill again.
• 1:45:53
  It's supposed to, and it's going to the next time and the next time.
• 1:45:57
  And so you can stand at the top of the mountain and curse, and yell and kick.
• 1:46:01
  Um, but if you, if you journal it out, then you get the opportunity
• 1:46:07
  to reframe the situation and make a choice as to how you wanna proceed
• 1:46:13
  and how you wanna be proceed.
• 1:46:16
  , you know, why are you in this field?
• 1:46:19
  And any of us in mental health, any of us in healing need to think about why we're
• 1:46:25
  in the field and we need to think about it regularly so that we don't fall into
• 1:46:31
  the trap of pity and being condescending.
• 1:46:35
  Because once we're there, we are not helping anyone.
• 1:46:41
  No.
• 1:46:41
  And, and then of course, we, we, we, , very quickly, slightly to self-pity.
• 1:46:45
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:46:46
  . Mm-hmm.
• 1:46:46
  and self condescending.
• 1:46:47
  That's natural.
• 1:46:48
  Which is beating ourselves up.
• 1:46:49
  Yeah.
• 1:46:49
  Yeah.
• 1:46:50
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:46:50
  . Mm-hmm.
• 1:46:50
  . Mm-hmm.
• 1:46:51
  . , and I do agree with you.
• 1:46:51
  I think it's natural.
• 1:46:52
  I don't think one can, I don't think one can escape it because
• 1:46:56
  I think that's part of the human condition, but perhaps one can learn
• 1:46:58
  to use it as a thriving mechanism.
• 1:47:02
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:47:02
  . Mm-hmm.
• 1:47:02
  . Mm-hmm.
• 1:47:03
  . Um, is this, is this the acquisition of wisdom?
• 1:47:05
  Is this the acquisition of, of resources and skills?
• 1:47:08
  Does Ssus get a little buffer, richer, happier, healthier, fitter.
• 1:47:15
  every time he rolls the boulder up.
• 1:47:18
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:47:18
  . Mm-hmm.
• 1:47:19
  is the, is the rolling of the boulder up the, the thriving,
• 1:47:25
  and is the relaxed walk down.
• 1:47:28
  Could you be admiring the view?
• 1:47:30
  Could you be, is that, is that your, is that your retreat time?
• 1:47:32
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:47:34
  . Mm-hmm.
• 1:47:34
  when just walking relaxed down the hill, swinging.
• 1:47:37
  I was whistling, smelling the herbs on the mountain, looking at the sea.
• 1:47:41
  Cause I've just placed myself in California in ancient
• 1:47:44
  Greece for some reason.
• 1:47:45
  and, um, then, oh look, here's a, the boulder again.
• 1:47:50
  . There it's, oh, there you're again.
• 1:47:54
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:47:59
  Humor helps now.
• 1:48:01
  Humor helps.
• 1:48:03
  Tell me a funny story from Square Pack
• 1:48:06
  We have a little boy.
• 1:48:11
  Um, He's adopted, , his life before adoption, pretty traumatic.
• 1:48:17
  And he's, he's beautiful.
• 1:48:19
  , he's just, he's just so damn cute and, , and very innocent looking.
• 1:48:24
  And when he's frustrated, he, he says some very bad words, words, naughty words.
• 1:48:35
  Naughty words.
• 1:48:37
  And he says them in context, . And he sends them, which is really impressive.
• 1:48:43
  And, , his, his, his mom is wonderful.
• 1:48:46
  , and she knows with him and, and, and he runs hard and he chases things.
• 1:48:52
  And this is a kid who can pluck a butterfly out of the.
• 1:48:57
  , you know, , he, what did he catch?
• 1:48:59
  Well, he caught a coil with his hands.
• 1:49:01
  What?
• 1:49:01
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:49:04
  He, um, that, that
• 1:49:10
  it's very like, I don't, yeah.
• 1:49:12
  Yeah.
• 1:49:13
  I cannot imagine that we're or something.
• 1:49:17
  Yeah, yeah.
• 1:49:17
  Yeah.
• 1:49:18
  Um, April between 15 feet into there, I know how fast those things grew.
• 1:49:21
  Yeah.
• 1:49:21
  Aqua, he, , he caught, he caught a rubber boa.
• 1:49:24
  We haven't seen a rubber boa here.
• 1:49:26
  He has caught, um, the snake skins.
• 1:49:30
  Yeah.
• 1:49:30
  Yeah.
• 1:49:30
  Okay.
• 1:49:31
  He's caught little skins.
• 1:49:33
  Um, I brought him to a place one time that had a little rabbit hutch in it
• 1:49:38
  and turned my head to do something.
• 1:49:40
  Turned back.
• 1:49:40
  He was in the rabbit hutch.
• 1:49:43
  Which is impressive.
• 1:49:44
  . Uh, so, you know, he's super, super, super physical.
• 1:49:47
  And so being on the horse, on the lunge at the canner is really regulating for him.
• 1:49:54
  Lots of sleep problems.
• 1:49:56
  Um, but he wanted to run around and, you know, and catch snakes and his
• 1:50:01
  mother's like, look naughty word.
• 1:50:04
  Yeah.
• 1:50:04
  And well, is that, is that, is that the key?
• 1:50:06
  He shouts, he's very naughty as the, and the, the snakes freeze in shock and
• 1:50:11
  No, but his mom saying can mood you.
• 1:50:13
  He, he can't keep coming back unless he spends at least 25 minutes on the horse.
• 1:50:18
  So we're trying to figure out how to, how to do this without
• 1:50:22
  forcing him on the horse.
• 1:50:23
  So, , why, why did she say that out of interest?
• 1:50:25
  Why does it matter?
• 1:50:27
  It, it matters to her.
• 1:50:28
  And, um, that's, we've, we've talked about it, but it, it matters to her.
• 1:50:33
  Okay.
• 1:50:34
  And I think mostly because when he is on the horse, , , he's, it, it it's
• 1:50:39
  demonstrable how much better he sleeps.
• 1:50:41
  Right.
• 1:50:42
  Okay.
• 1:50:42
  And their life is much better when he sleeps, obviously.
• 1:50:46
  Okay.
• 1:50:47
  So , we told him that, , that the horse's back is a safe place where
• 1:50:54
  he can say anything he wants.
• 1:50:58
  Did he take that opportunity?
• 1:51:00
  He did.
• 1:51:02
  And the problem is it's really hard to keep lunging a pony when
• 1:51:04
  this adorable seven year old going, beep, beep, beep, mother.
• 1:51:14
  So we're trying not to fall on the ground.
• 1:51:16
  And we of course, know that we're reinforcing the behavior by laughing.
• 1:51:19
  And so, so now his mom comes back and she's like, look, , we're
• 1:51:30
  pretty much.
• 1:51:32
  . And, and of course we, we think that we've, you know, really
• 1:51:35
  pulled off something great.
• 1:51:36
  So , but you know, she, she knows that he's gonna get in a lot of trouble
• 1:51:41
  for, um, mother for, you know, saying bad words for the mother, Pete.
• 1:51:46
  And, uh, so we had to come up with secret swear words that were so
• 1:51:53
  awful and so terrible, Ooh, that, um, you know, they, they can only
• 1:51:59
  be spoken from the ponies back
• 1:52:02
  And so as a staff, we would come up with these nonsense words and we would say
• 1:52:06
  them, and we were just like, oh, you know, everybody would like, would you?
• 1:52:12
  Now he's got this adorable seven year old panning around going
• 1:52:17
  bar fig newgen, bar, fig Newgen.
• 1:52:23
  Ooh.
• 1:52:24
  . Yeah.
• 1:52:24
  I felt chill.
• 1:52:25
  Like German is fantastic that way, right?
• 1:52:27
  Yeah.
• 1:52:28
  And then you would have to just like, and then you would, you would make
• 1:52:30
  it so that other people would be walking by and just like, oh, kind of
• 1:52:33
  flinch, you know, as he would say it, because the payoff would be so big.
• 1:52:37
  So we would, you know, it's spend the whole week coming up with these, these
• 1:52:41
  terrible, terrible made up words.
• 1:52:43
  Um, but Fark Newgen is one of the best ones.
• 1:52:46
  And so even today, far, this was months ago, we did this Fig Far Newgen.
• 1:52:51
  Yeah, fig was, that's, that's, that's remember, oh, ooh, that's, yeah.
• 1:52:54
  No, that, yeah.
• 1:52:55
  Definitely freezes the spleen.
• 1:52:57
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:52:57
  It does.
• 1:52:58
  It does.
• 1:52:59
  Yeah.
• 1:52:59
  You have to kind of wipe up after saying that.
• 1:53:03
  Yeah's confession.
• 1:53:04
  Yeah, exactly.
• 1:53:07
  Bless me, father far.
• 1:53:08
  I far kin.
• 1:53:11
  Um, it's just a funny, funny, funny story and, and coming up with new
• 1:53:17
  words or just walking by him and leaning over and whispering in his ear.
• 1:53:20
  Dude.
• 1:53:22
  Perfect nugget, , like running away and laughing.
• 1:53:26
  you know, it's really interesting that, because I remember with um, my son Rowan,
• 1:53:30
  when he went through a phase now, 10, 12 years ago, or wanting to say, beep beep,
• 1:53:36
  beep, beep, beep, beep all the time.
• 1:53:38
  And we gave him a safe place to do it and people said, you know, oh, he's
• 1:53:41
  gonna just abuse that all the time.
• 1:53:42
  And yeah, there were a couple of times he said it in the wrong place, but actually
• 1:53:45
  what happened is he totally got it out of his system and um, we didn't make it
• 1:53:49
  a holy grail and we made it funny and we realized it was gonna happen anyway.
• 1:53:55
  So we rather roll with it.
• 1:53:57
  But then I also taught him the history of those words.
• 1:53:59
  Cause there's a very old words in the English language.
• 1:54:01
  In fact, they show up in Be Wolff and from the fifth century, you
• 1:54:05
  know, the first poem in English.
• 1:54:06
  And that's, it's in there.
• 1:54:08
  Um, the one we all know, , The fun one and, , fun one then.
• 1:54:13
  And then from there we could go into Anglo-Saxon history and then fall of the
• 1:54:16
  Empire and, you know, blah, blah, blah.
• 1:54:18
  And we could go further then up into Norse history and the Norse gods.
• 1:54:21
  And it was, it was a really good way into all sorts of things.
• 1:54:24
  Um, and then to reading the, the poem itself.
• 1:54:27
  Um, so what I love is that what you did is as well as giving the safe space and
• 1:54:33
  the regulating behavior, and he's now on the horse and having fun and sleeping, but
• 1:54:37
  also you've shown him, , social context.
• 1:54:40
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:54:40
  . Mm-hmm.
• 1:54:40
  , you've shown him in a really stealthy under the table sort of way.
• 1:54:45
  So he, it's not gonna be resisted.
• 1:54:47
  , this is how you can be fun and a bit naughty in a social context that will be
• 1:54:55
  then rewarded and you won't be punished.
• 1:54:57
  And it's also inventive, but what I really love is you, you hit on a very
• 1:55:03
  key thing, which I feel is often missing.
• 1:55:06
  in the world of, of equine, , assisted stuff.
• 1:55:09
  It's a very bit of a serious world.
• 1:55:11
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:55:12
  , um, and to the detriment.
• 1:55:13
  I, you know, I, I think if you're working, particularly if you're working with
• 1:55:16
  kids, it's like if you're not laughing at least every couple of minutes,
• 1:55:20
  you're kind of in the wrong business.
• 1:55:21
  , any time one is you, it's using, , toilet humor or a four letter or, or whatever.
• 1:55:29
  , it's an act of rebellion.
• 1:55:31
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:55:32
  . And if a child is being told from day one, you are not right.
• 1:55:39
  You need therapy.
• 1:55:40
  That's why you are going to this square pay place, or this is,
• 1:55:42
  that's why you're going into this therapeutic writing place or whatever,
• 1:55:45
  and they're also in all these other therapies and blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 1:55:49
  And you are not right.
• 1:55:49
  You're not right.
• 1:55:50
  You're not right and you must do this and you must do that, and da,
• 1:55:53
  da da, and their spirits get broken.
• 1:55:55
  You see this?
• 1:55:56
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:55:56
  What we call, you know, being therapied out.
• 1:55:58
  It's another form of burnout.
• 1:56:00
  and I know so few people who are able to restore the broken spirits of people.
• 1:56:08
  Cause it's not just kids who have been given a profound sense
• 1:56:13
  of shame about who they are.
• 1:56:15
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:56:15
  . And the only way that's a form of oppression and the only way
• 1:56:18
  you can shake off the oppressor is to rebel, to break the chains.
• 1:56:24
  And often that's violently done.
• 1:56:25
  I mean, that's obviously what teenage rebellion is and so on.
• 1:56:28
  And um, to give an outlet for that where you can rebel in a constructive
• 1:56:35
  way that will not get you in trouble, will actually when you brownie points,
• 1:56:40
  but will restore your self-respect.
• 1:56:44
  That's genius.
• 1:56:45
  And that's why I wanted to talk to you because I don't know many people,
• 1:56:50
  Joel, who can do that, where you see the bigger picture you follow.
• 1:56:58
  where the child is at, you see what the dangers are, and you sidestep them
• 1:57:05
  by coming up with something inventive that negates the negative side, but
• 1:57:12
  gives all the positive outcomes.
• 1:57:15
  It's genius.
• 1:57:16
  Um, are you training people at Square Back?
• 1:57:23
  Are you men?
• 1:57:23
  We are, yeah.
• 1:57:25
  We, how did somebody get trained or mentored by you?
• 1:57:29
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:57:33
  You know, the pandemic slowed down a lot of the mentoring that I was
• 1:57:37
  doing for new programs, which I realized I really, really enjoyed.
• 1:57:43
  Um, I loved travel.
• 1:57:45
  I love working with people with their horses and their facility and giving them
• 1:57:51
  license to learn the Farik Newgen game.
• 1:57:55
  , , , but you know, the pandemic slowed all of that down.
• 1:57:58
  But what I did was that I invested much more into our staff here
• 1:58:04
  and that, and our horses here.
• 1:58:07
  And, , we have some really brilliant humans working here and they're doing
• 1:58:13
  better work than I've ever done because of the work that has been done in the past
• 1:58:19
  because of spending, what, 7, 8, 9 years with Horse Boy Method and, , and, and,
• 1:58:28
  uh, and traveling around and seeing other world class programs like Miss Kenneth.
• 1:58:34
  , so I think that mentoring has been some of the most satisfying work
• 1:58:39
  I've ever done because I get to sit here and watch it bear fruit.
• 1:58:43
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:58:43
  , and then.
• 1:58:45
  We, we grew a job training program for young adults with autism and got that
• 1:58:52
  funded through a regional center here.
• 1:58:54
  And, um, most people in this field, uh, especially if you're a nonprofit,
• 1:59:00
  you will get a certain group of people who, I lost you again.
• 1:59:29
  Better?
• 1:59:30
  Yeah.
• 1:59:31
  Got you back.
• 1:59:32
  Good.
• 1:59:33
  Can you hear me okay?
• 1:59:34
  Yeah.
• 1:59:34
  Uhhuh.
• 1:59:35
  ? Yeah.
• 1:59:35
  Okay.
• 1:59:37
  , most people in the field, uh, most people in the field are going to
• 1:59:42
  get offers of people to volunteer.
• 1:59:45
  People who are, are a, , it's usually gonna be women in their forties, fifties.
• 1:59:51
  , people who want to be back around horses, haven't been around horses for a while.
• 1:59:58
  Um, they can be a tricky group to manage as volunteers.
• 2:00:01
  They have expectations, they have needs, they have, um, rules.
• 2:00:07
  Um, most of our young adults in our job training program have been therapied out.
• 2:00:16
  Like you said, people who, , have been told you are not able to do this.
• 2:00:21
  You are not good at this.
• 2:00:22
  You are not quick at this.
• 2:00:24
  You, there's this wrong with you that, wrong with you.
• 2:00:28
  Putting them in a position of power to the supervise volunteers.
• 2:00:34
  You put autistic young people in charge of bossy horsey women.
• 2:00:38
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:00:40
  . Yeah.
• 2:00:42
  Do you have this on video?
• 2:00:45
  with the ukulele soundtrack?
• 2:00:50
  . Wow.
• 2:00:51
  Yeah.
• 2:00:52
  Yeah.
• 2:00:53
  It is really amazing.
• 2:00:56
  So the, the authors are training the neurotypicals effect.
• 2:00:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:00:59
  , this is what it comes down to.
• 2:01:00
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:01:01
  . Mm-hmm.
• 2:01:02
  good author.
• 2:01:03
  And the care that they take, um, the, uh, uh, it can be pretty brutal at times.
• 2:01:12
  Uh, um mm-hmm.
• 2:01:13
  and I, I, I would to come and watch this
• 2:01:20
  and it may sound cruel, but how cruel is it that.
• 2:01:26
  Yeah.
• 2:01:27
  Uh, it's just a role reversal.
• 2:01:29
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:01:30
  and it's, it's, it's really beautiful.
• 2:01:33
  And watching, watching the person who is in charge of, of training
• 2:01:38
  the neurotypical people, watching that kind of brutal supervision
• 2:01:44
  soften over time is really special.
• 2:01:49
  Really, really, really, really special.
• 2:01:51
  , and it's, it's one of the things I'm quite proud of.
• 2:01:55
  Would you say that's the thing you're the most proud of?
• 2:01:57
  This, this, , employment step?
• 2:02:00
  I think just developing our staff period, you know, and staff meaning, you
• 2:02:07
  know, including our job training people has been the thing I'm most proud of.
• 2:02:11
  Yeah.
• 2:02:14
  And you, you talked about new locations, um mm-hmm.
• 2:02:20
  I happen to know because you told me, , that your half Moon Bay,
• 2:02:25
  your original location mm-hmm.
• 2:02:28
  is about to change.
• 2:02:30
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:02:31
  in a rather exciting way.
• 2:02:33
  Really an exciting way.
• 2:02:34
  Thank you.
• 2:02:34
  Could you tell us about that please?
• 2:02:36
  So we, , we have worked a deal, , in our area of Coastal Bay Area, California.
• 2:02:45
  Um, there is a subset of the National Park system called the Golden Gate
• 2:02:49
  National Recreation Area, and it's a sum total of I think eight or nine.
• 2:02:58
  Big pieces of property, , from Sonoma, which is about 80 miles north of us.
• 2:03:04
  , this piece of property we're gonna talk about is the southern most part, but it
• 2:03:09
  includes the Marin Headlands, which is the north part of the Golden Gate Bridge.
• 2:03:14
  , it includes, , a lot of the, the North Coast in Marin County.
• 2:03:19
  , the Presidio of San Francisco is part of the Golden Gate National Recreation Area.
• 2:03:24
  , and then this piece of property that we're moving to is called the
• 2:03:27
  Rancho Corral Del Tierra, and it's 4,200 acres of coastal California.
• 2:03:35
  Um, can you see the ocean?
• 2:03:37
  And you can, you can.
• 2:03:41
  , yeah, so it's coastal.
• 2:03:43
  , Monte Mountain, we hiked it actually last week, is an 1800 foot vertical gain to
• 2:03:48
  the top with a view of the entire Bay Area, including, um, Mount Tamo Pius,
• 2:03:54
  Mount Hamilton, the top of the Golden Gate Bridge, and all the way down to Pescadero.
• 2:03:58
  If you look on a map, it's some of the most stunning
• 2:04:00
  landscape you can ever imagine.
• 2:04:03
  , and the, the, the trails are maintained by the Department of the Interior.
• 2:04:07
  , there's actually a state part right next door, so it's even more
• 2:04:11
  than 4,200 acres worth of trails.
• 2:04:14
  And you can access all this with your, with your autistic clients, with your.
• 2:04:18
  Good Lord.
• 2:04:19
  Yeah.
• 2:04:19
  Yeah.
• 2:04:19
  So we are, we're, um, right now the herd is split.
• 2:04:24
  We have six horses here in half Moon Bay and, , six in
• 2:04:28
  the Rancho Corral, Del Tierra.
• 2:04:29
  And so we do sessions all day and then we run over and we just get, and
• 2:04:33
  it's, it's mostly the thoroughbreds that are at the Rancho right now,
• 2:04:37
  getting them out on the trail and just getting used to, you know, there's
• 2:04:41
  gonna be loose dogs cuz it's a park.
• 2:04:43
  There's gonna be mountain bikes, , and, , just exploring trail loops that are gonna
• 2:04:48
  be appropriate for different clients.
• 2:04:50
  , we can actually in about 10 minutes ride from the, from where the horses are, we
• 2:04:55
  can be at the local elementary school.
• 2:04:57
  So we're looking at, um, engaging programs there.
• 2:05:00
  Um, parents can go for a hike and a picnic while their family members ride.
• 2:05:05
  , it is, you know, the ability to get out into stunningly beautiful natural spaces.
• 2:05:12
  is, , is so exciting.
• 2:05:14
  So this is so exciting.
• 2:05:15
  This is, this is genius because, , obviously for so many of us in
• 2:05:19
  the field, the idea of a barn and the barn has the land that it has.
• 2:05:22
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:05:23
  might be large, might be small.
• 2:05:25
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:05:25
  , but usually the, , the program is contained often in an arena which isn't,
• 2:05:31
  you know, ideal cause it's a sterile environment and you are now able to get
• 2:05:35
  out into all this public land with your.
• 2:05:38
  . Yeah.
• 2:05:38
  Yeah.
• 2:05:39
  And that was the thing is, you know, this is Silicon Valley, so,
• 2:05:43
  , real estate is cost-prohibitive.
• 2:05:46
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:05:46
  . Um, and, uh, and it's, uh, you know, nobody was jumping up and wanting
• 2:05:50
  to give us 20 acres, and even if they did, as you know, um, just
• 2:05:55
  maintaining your own trails Yeah.
• 2:05:57
  Suddenly takes away so much from your program.
• 2:06:00
  Yeah.
• 2:06:00
  Um, and, um, so now somebody else has to manage the trails and maintain them.
• 2:06:06
  Um, and we can focus on programs and we can focus on horse care.
• 2:06:11
  And we can focus on, on, on just getting people access to this.
• 2:06:15
  And in property that is meant to be shared mm-hmm.
• 2:06:19
  and we're bringing a population into the national park that is not traditionally.
• 2:06:24
  You know, participated in national parks, so the national park has a
• 2:06:28
  feather in their cap that they're reaching out to vulnerable populations
• 2:06:31
  that normally wouldn't access the park.
• 2:06:34
  Um, so, so perhaps it's really a win-win.
• 2:06:37
  You know, you talk about mentoring, would you say actually now?
• 2:06:41
  Yeah.
• 2:06:42
  To, would you recommend that, um, people who are running programs reach
• 2:06:47
  out to the public recreational land?
• 2:06:49
  , I think so.
• 2:06:50
  Organizations in the air and see, can we do our work in these areas
• 2:06:54
  because, , that's really where these people need to be, right.
• 2:06:57
  Is out in that type of nature.
• 2:06:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:06:59
  . Mm-hmm.
• 2:07:00
  . And we know that nature deficit disorder is a thing.
• 2:07:03
  Um, and we know that horses are a part of the American heritage.
• 2:07:09
  a a deep, important part.
• 2:07:11
  And so integrating horses into public parks and public trail systems is, is, is
• 2:07:18
  an important way to preserve that history.
• 2:07:21
  And we can sell that to communities, we can sell that to the
• 2:07:25
  organizations that own the Parklands.
• 2:07:27
  We can sell that, , and , and be able to focus our efforts and our,
• 2:07:32
  and our resources in programs.
• 2:07:34
  And I think it's really exciting.
• 2:07:36
  Um, I think that doing really innovative public and, and, and nonprofit
• 2:07:42
  partnerships is, is a way to go.
• 2:07:45
  And of course I learned that from the great Doyle and who we will have on this.
• 2:07:50
  Uh, if we can persuade him to talk man as an allergy to talking for
• 2:07:55
  those who he does who do not know.
• 2:07:56
  David Doyle is, , and you should tune into the David Do.
• 2:08:00
  David Doyle is actually the Wizard Merlin, , disguised as.
• 2:08:05
  An middle-aged Irishman, um, who runs the extraordinary li
• 2:08:10
  skin it farm in county Limerick.
• 2:08:14
  Um, one of the most extraordinary autism and mental health with horses, facilities
• 2:08:18
  that exists anywhere in the world.
• 2:08:20
  I think we all look up to him and I'll be definitely, , he just look for
• 2:08:25
  where I have him on, on the podcast.
• 2:08:27
  You do want to listen to David do.
• 2:08:29
  Um, one of the things which, , we're often talking about in this, , walk of
• 2:08:33
  life is how important environment is.
• 2:08:36
  And of course, you know, riding arenas are often sterile, smell bad.
• 2:08:41
  Yes.
• 2:08:41
  Sometimes if the weather is really bad, okay, then that's where we have to be.
• 2:08:45
  But we can bring the forest in perhaps, or put trees in there like we've put jumps or
• 2:08:50
  be imaginative about how we use the arena.
• 2:08:54
  But one was so much rather not.
• 2:08:55
  And you know, you talk about you've got access to this land and I can
• 2:08:58
  just hear now some people saying, oh well, but you know, we're, we are in.
• 2:09:02
  Europe or wherever and we don't have access to that.
• 2:09:04
  And I would always challenge that actually.
• 2:09:06
  So for example, where we are in Germany, um, we don't even
• 2:09:11
  own, own our own place to it.
• 2:09:12
  We're renting boxes.
• 2:09:14
  Um, but the land around us, there is free access on all the trails.
• 2:09:20
  It doesn't matter who owns it, you can ride across it,
• 2:09:23
  you can ride into the forest.
• 2:09:24
  So of course that's where we do our work.
• 2:09:26
  And I'll say to parents, okay, meet me in that carpark.
• 2:09:28
  I'll be over there with the horses to meet you.
• 2:09:31
  And we go to this lovely spring in the forest or to this , lovely
• 2:09:35
  little playground we've set up.
• 2:09:36
  Cause we hang silk hammocks from the trees or whatever, or whatever
• 2:09:39
  to think outside of arenas.
• 2:09:41
  Um, and the fact that you've now done this in public land, I think is a real,
• 2:09:48
  um, inspiration for others to follow.
• 2:09:51
  To please think we say, think outside the box, think outside the arena, and think
• 2:09:55
  outside of your own property boundaries.
• 2:09:58
  , is there National Forest near you?
• 2:09:59
  Is there a public park near you with a swing set that you don't have to
• 2:10:04
  raise 200,000 to put in because you can just go there and meet the kids
• 2:10:07
  and play there with your horse?
• 2:10:09
  Or can you use the resources, the outdoor resources that are in the area?
• 2:10:13
  And boy oh boy, are you doing that?
• 2:10:15
  Um, I cannot wait to to come check it out.
• 2:10:20
  , can people, when I first met you, , all those years ago, you were
• 2:10:25
  operating out of a trailer in mm-hmm.
• 2:10:28
  , a very confined riding arena, which, or riding boarding barn Really?
• 2:10:34
  Which did have access up a very, very steep, very difficult to get up
• 2:10:38
  trail to some open hill area, but, you know, most of what was going on
• 2:10:43
  was confined to an arena and mm-hmm.
• 2:10:46
  And I've then I saw you sort of expand out to a more spacious
• 2:10:50
  property, but it was still.
• 2:10:53
  , um, relying on what that property had within its boundaries.
• 2:10:57
  And now you seems you've expanded through just sort of a leap of
• 2:11:01
  imagination to a completely unlimited, , natural sort of Eden type playground.
• 2:11:10
  Is this something we could all do, do you think?
• 2:11:14
  Yeah.
• 2:11:14
  Um, you know, I I, we had been searching for about two years and I was pretty
• 2:11:22
  close to a deal on what looked like was gonna be a really nice deal.
• 2:11:31
  Uh, it was part of , , a sport horse breeding farm.
• 2:11:34
  Really nice farm.
• 2:11:35
  And she wanted to lease us or sell us a portion of it.
• 2:11:39
  , and she, she really wanted to make the deal work and, , and
• 2:11:42
  it just wasn't right in my gut.
• 2:11:45
  And I, and I couldn't figure out why.
• 2:11:48
  And, um, and David Doyle and his wife Moura were visiting and I sat
• 2:11:53
  him down and I said, you know, I, there's just, I, I don't know why I'm
• 2:11:59
  not feeling so confident about this.
• 2:12:02
  And he said, well, I'll tell you why you're not feeling confident about it.
• 2:12:08
  You have 140 families on a waiting list for services, and you would be moving to a
• 2:12:14
  place that is as big as where you are now.
• 2:12:18
  There's no room to grow.
• 2:12:21
  And I, oh, you're right, . You know, um, he said, you need, you
• 2:12:27
  need, you need to know exactly what the criteria is for a property.
• 2:12:34
  And the property will find you, you know, it's a square peg story.
• 2:12:37
  Right.
• 2:12:38
  I was trying to make an opportunity.
• 2:12:42
  That we had fit.
• 2:12:44
  And instead, I needed to reverse that.
• 2:12:47
  And I needed to, I needed to know what the dream was and
• 2:12:52
  then let that property find me.
• 2:12:54
  And it's a leap of faith that I didn't like taking, I like
• 2:12:57
  being in control of things.
• 2:12:59
  Um, but I came home from Ireland and I was waiting for my bags in the airport
• 2:13:05
  and the phone rang and I had talked about this property that we're, we're moving
• 2:13:11
  to a couple of years ago with the, with the woman who owns the, the lease on it.
• 2:13:17
  And we decided that it wasn't private enough.
• 2:13:19
  And so we'd given up on it.
• 2:13:21
  And she calls me and she says, you know, I know that we talked about Oceanview
• 2:13:26
  Farms, um, a couple of years ago, but I can't get square peg outta my mind.
• 2:13:31
  And it turns out that traditionally everything behind the arena had
• 2:13:35
  horses in it, but we haven't had horses there for years.
• 2:13:38
  What if we did a custom buildout for you?
• 2:13:41
  and then you would have all the privacy you need and have
• 2:13:43
  all the access to the trails.
• 2:13:44
  Would that work?
• 2:13:46
  Yeah.
• 2:13:47
  Yeah.
• 2:13:47
  That would work.
• 2:13:49
  So, so there you go.
• 2:13:50
  That's whether you call that manifesting or just dumb luck.
• 2:13:55
  Um, it wasn't until I knew exactly what we wanted in a facility that I was
• 2:14:02
  able to find it or for it to find us.
• 2:14:06
  Dream the dream and let the dream find you.
• 2:14:10
  Mm.
• 2:14:10
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:14:11
  . Mm-hmm.
• 2:14:12
  . Yeah.
• 2:14:12
  Where to live by.
• 2:14:13
  Yeah.
• 2:14:15
  Yeah.
• 2:14:16
  And proved out.
• 2:14:18
  Wow.
• 2:14:18
  Out.
• 2:14:19
  So if people want to come to Square peg and be mentored in how
• 2:14:25
  to create square pegs, or how to have more square peg in what they
• 2:14:30
  already do, um, can they do that?
• 2:14:35
  Can they contact.
• 2:14:37
  . They can, they can, yeah.
• 2:14:38
  It's gonna be a little wild and wooly until summer with us, you know,
• 2:14:43
  moving and getting reestablished.
• 2:14:45
  But we're really hoping by summer that we'll be able to, um, we'll
• 2:14:50
  be able to actively mentor people.
• 2:14:52
  It's something that gives us a lot of satisfaction, um, and, and it feels
• 2:14:58
  like that's one of the, the best ways to send those waves out into the world.
• 2:15:04
  Okay.
• 2:15:05
  So we will be putting in the links, , how to contact you, Joel.
• 2:15:09
  , yeah, with your permission and if people would like to go and be mentored by the
• 2:15:14
  amazing Joel Dunlap, which I certainly have been, , I would recommend it.
• 2:15:19
  , it seems to get one to rather lovely places.
• 2:15:22
  , if nothing else, it's a great excuse to go, um, check out that property.
• 2:15:26
  Um, so it's been an amazing story.
• 2:15:31
  , it's been an honor to talk to you.
• 2:15:36
  , and as long as I've known you, there were still aspects of the story that
• 2:15:39
  were unknown to me and gaps that you filled, which I find fascinating.
• 2:15:44
  What would you leave us with?
• 2:15:48
  What are your parting words of wisdom for us?
• 2:15:51
  Joe, I'll done that.
• 2:15:52
  Or square peg foundation for us in the equine assisted world,
• 2:15:58
  my favorite go-to whenever I am confused by a horse or a family that
• 2:16:07
  I'm working with, that I come back to is, is three really simple words, and
• 2:16:12
  that's always assume intelligence.
• 2:16:17
  And that has guided.
• 2:16:19
  through some big decisions.
• 2:16:22
  I'll leave that open-ended and for whatever interpretation or far fig.
• 2:16:26
  Yeah.
• 2:16:27
  I was just thinking, I'll try that with my morning affirmations in front
• 2:16:30
  of the mirror, look at myself and go.
• 2:16:38
  But very practical.
• 2:16:40
  Always assume intelligent.
• 2:16:41
  Yeah.
• 2:16:41
  Yes.
• 2:16:41
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 2:16:43
  Yeah.
• 2:16:43
  I would agree.
• 2:16:44
  Yeah.
• 2:16:44
  Um, I never met anybody who was, or any other organism that was unintelligent,
• 2:16:52
  except in my own limited view of them, and it was my limited view.
• 2:16:59
  And when I shift there, I, I come to much more compassionate decisions.
• 2:17:03
  Mm.
• 2:17:04
  Less frustration.
• 2:17:05
  Yeah.
• 2:17:06
  Mm mm.
• 2:17:09
  Yeah.
• 2:17:09
  Looking for the, the beauty of rolling the rock up the hill.
• 2:17:14
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:17:14
  not the effort or down.
• 2:17:16
  Yeah.
• 2:17:17
  Or down or the walk down with the nice sea view.
• 2:17:21
  With the nice sea view.
• 2:17:23
  Yeah.
• 2:17:25
  All right.
• 2:17:25
  Well thank you Joel.
• 2:17:27
  , it's late for you.
• 2:17:29
  Thank you for staying up.
• 2:17:30
  Oh, it's been, it's been a pleasure.
• 2:17:32
  Yeah.
• 2:17:32
  We are on different time zones.
• 2:17:34
  , we will put links to Square peg down fine hand Za method and other resources,
• 2:17:41
  , from this plus how to contact Joel and get mentored by her and go and check
• 2:17:45
  her Amazing place out, , in the links.
• 2:17:48
  , until next time, we'll be seeing you in the equine assisted world, cuz
• 2:17:53
  it's where we hang out for our sin
• 2:17:56
  , Joel, thank you so much.
• 2:17:57
  It's been, it's been, thank you.
• 2:17:59
  Yeah.
• 2:18:01
  Okay.
• 2:18:02
  See you next time.
• 2:18:03
  Okay.
• 2:18:04
  Bye.
• 2:18:04
  Bye.
• 2:18:05
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• 2:18:06
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