Latest / The Nation Podcasts / The fight to Stop ICE—in Congress, and at the Super Bowl | Start Making Sense

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The fight to Stop ICE—in Congress, and at the Super Bowl | Start Making Sense · The Nation Podcasts

• 0:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: From the nation magazine, this is Start Making Sense.
• 0:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm John Weiner, later in the show, The Super Bowl is by far the biggest entertainment event of the year.
• 0:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: In this Sunday, the half-time show will feature Puerto Rican singer, Bad Bunny, who has been demanding ice out.
• 0:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: How did the Super Bowl half-time show become the center of resistance to ICE?
• 0:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: Dave Zyron, the nation's sports editor, will explain.
• 0:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: But first, the Democrats and the budget for ICE, John Nichols will comment in a minute.
• 0:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: This is one of those rare moments when everybody is paying attention to the same thing.
• 0:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: Even people who usually avoid politics are talking about what ice has been doing in Minnesota.
• 0:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: Poling over the last week or two shows that three quarters of Americans have seen some or all of the video of the murder of Alex Prattie, that is stunning.
• 1:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: You can't persuade people without getting their attention and getting people's attention
• 1:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: We have it now, and the Democrats and Congress have put forward several demands about limiting or restricting ICE operations.
• 1:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: For comment we turn to John Nichols, of course he's executive editor of the nation, John welcome back.
• 1:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's good to be with you, John.
• 1:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, the Democrats say they won't fund any of the Department of Homeland Security unless the funding bill includes several restrictions, the Senate on Friday passed the rest of the budget with a two week appropriation for Homeland Security.
• 1:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: And as we speak here on Tuesday afternoon, the House is passing the same bill.
• 1:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: That means for the next two weeks,
• 1:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: We will be talking about raining in ice and how much we can get the Democrats to do and how much they can get the Republicans to agree to.
• 2:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I want to look at what the Democrats demands are at this point masks off body cameras on.
• 2:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: ending random sweeps, instead requiring judicial warrants, requiring that ICE agents follow the same use of force standards as police departments.
• 2:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: And an independent investigation of the two fatal shootings in Minneapolis, in some ways the biggest of these demands it seems to me is for no arrests without
• 2:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: individualized warrants signed by judges, not signed by ICE administrators.
• 2:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: That would really change the way ICE operates in the streets.
• 2:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: Do you have the same sense that this is the biggest one?
• 2:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's a really big deal.
• 2:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: There are cases where ice agents are literally filling out the so-called warrants, literally minutes before their jumping into action.
• 3:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is not a deliberative process.
• 3:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: This isn't a place where evidence is brought in and a judge weighs it and says, well, what about this or what about that?
• 3:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think going to a circumstance where judges have to be a part of this process does two things.
• 3:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: with what we would want to have, you know, in any kind of country that respects the Constitution, the rule of law, it also undoubtedly slows the process down.
• 3:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: It makes it less likely that you can have this sort of haphazard free-wheeling approach.
• 3:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: yeah the way they work now here in Los Angeles where we record our show they go to a car wash and just grab everybody they go to a home depot and they pick up all of the people who are looking for work as day laborers that would be impossible if you require individualized warrants with particular people's name on them.
• 4:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: I want to note that in the house, the progressive caucus, which has about 100 people, has some additional demands which go beyond what the Democratic leadership wants, their number one demand is ice out of Minneapolis immediately, number two, and arrests at sensitive locations like churches, schools, hospitals, and courthouses,
• 4:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: Number three, and the detention and deportation of U.S. citizens, and number four, ensure minimum standards of care at detention facilities, including access to medical care, clean water, edible food, and protections against abuse, and ensure independent investigations of death at detention facilities.
• 4:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: The progressive caucus list is a pretty good list.
• 4:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: pretty good list although honestly John we shouldn't even have to be saying some of these things.
• 4:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: The notion that a detention center should be clean, you know, the notion that you shouldn't be like grabbing people on a churches or around churches.
• 5:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think most Americans would be very comfortable.
• 5:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: with having that as a standard.
• 5:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I also think that at this point, most Americans would be very, very comfortable with getting ice out of Minneapolis.
• 5:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: But we still end up in this situation where many folks will say, yeah, but you still got ice.
• 5:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: This seems to have been established as an organization, at least in the current moment, that is so out of control, so irresponsible in its leadership,
• 5:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: You can do some things in this moment, and certainly you should, that's no reason not to try and act on every level that you can, but it's fair to say that ultimately, as many members of Congress have said, we really need to dismantle and replace it with something that is not only under oversight, but is respectful of the Constitution.
• 5:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: So we have seen the Trump people taking some big steps back in response to the public outrage over what ISIS has been doing in Minneapolis, Christy Nome ordered ISIS agents in Minneapolis to wear body cameras,
• 6:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, Greg Bovino was removed from his position as ice commander in Minneapolis and replaced with the borders, our Tom Holman, who promised to de-escalate the situation there.
• 6:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: The Department of Justice agreed to begin a civil rights investigation into the murder of Alex Pretty.
• 6:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: These seem significant, but lots of people like Senator Tina Smith warn us, nothing has actually changed in the streets of Minneapolis, so how do we balance out the apparent step back in response to public pressure and be continuing operation of ice in the streets?
• 6:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think we have to adopt the language of Mayor Jacob Fry and in Minneapolis who says, I'll believe it when I see it.
• 6:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: The administration has sent very mixed signals, not just initially, and then when, as we suggest Trump has tried to back off some of this, Trump has himself said that we aren't back.
• 7:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're, we're, we're changes on our language.
• 7:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: He sent some relatively more modern signals than he says, but we're not backing off.
• 7:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: ice in Minneapolis has gone so far beyond the bounce.
• 7:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: It has gotten so out of control.
• 7:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is such a presence throughout the city.
• 7:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Remember, you've got more than 3,000 ice agents there.
• 7:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's more than the police forces of Minneapolis and St. Paul combined.
• 7:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: In a situation like that, if you de-escalate a little bit,
• 7:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: you've still got a situation where there's an overwhelming ice presence in the city, and a lot of these ice agents are getting up every morning going out, you know, trying to round up somebody someplace, and that has created such a level of chaos.
• 7:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: When I have spoken to all sorts of folks, religious leaders, union leaders, elected officials, what they say is that the impact on the city is everywhere.
• 8:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: People are afraid to go to work.
• 8:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: People are afraid to go to church.
• 8:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: People are afraid to send their kids to school.
• 8:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: There is so much going on at this point that is destabilizing for the day-to-day life of the city that a minor de-escalation might sound good nationally.
• 8:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: But for people in Minneapolis, I think what they really are sincere about is saying that it's time for ice to leave.
• 8:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: you talk about people far away who are taking a stand the most striking example of people far away turning against Trump as this state Senate election in Texas, a district trump one by 17 points, the Democrat there, one that district by 14 points, which I think is a 30 point shift, the Democrat was also outspend 20 to one.
• 9:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: What do you know about this thing that happened in Texas?
• 9:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: it's a very significant result.
• 9:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: The winning candidate is a union leader, union activist, who ran a very economic populist campaign in a state where we're testing how well that does.
• 9:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're trying to figure out how far you can get on a message that is economic populist.
• 9:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's focused not just on the the soft term of affordability, but on the deeper reality.
• 9:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: of economic injustice and economic unfairness in a moment where corporations are jacking up prices at the same time that they are running record profits.
• 9:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: And this was a candidate who's willing to talk about some of that.
• 9:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: On the other hand, the Republican candidate was a very prominent figure in the region who had been extremely active in a host of right-wing initiatives and had massive
• 9:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: And all the way up to President Trump himself, the result was that the Republican dramatically outspent the Democrat and yet the Democrat won.
• 10:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: And when you put all that into the mix and you look at the fact that you have a shift from a 17-point Trump district to a 14-point Democratic
• 10:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: win.
• 10:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: What this tells me is that in Texas and around the country, we have to kind of expand our map as regards congressional races and Senate races at the federal level, but also as regards legislatures around the country because it looks like people are really ready to show up, right?
• 10:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Democrats very, very show Republicans in this district by the way showed up as well, but when you get a
• 10:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: of substantial turn out of people, the shift is that the independence now appear to be citing very strongly with the Democrats and even maybe some Republicans get in shape here.
• 10:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: That John points to a possibility, not the certainty, that November 2026, which is I'll admit a long time away.
• 11:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: But November 2026 could produce a genuine blue wave election.
• 11:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, getting back to Congress right now, there's this two-week pause to debate restrictions on ice in the funding bill for the Department of Homeland Security.
• 11:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: The Republicans are obviously hoping that people will start to forget.
• 11:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: about the murders of Renee Good and Alex Pretty, and certainly Trump is doing everything he can, frantically, to give us lots of other things to think about that are outrageous and terrible and upsetting.
• 11:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: What's it going to take for the Democrats to keep up the pressure on the ice issues in the DHS budget for the next two weeks?
• 11:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you're right to focus on that, John.
• 11:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it is challenging.
• 11:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Just as January 1, we've been in the midst of crises regarding Venezuela and Greenland and government shutdowns.
• 12:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Trump has a lot of space in which to kind of shoot off in other directions.
• 12:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he's very good at that because our national media is not good on sticking to a story.
• 12:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think for the Democrats, one of the critical things is to develop a coherent plan.
• 12:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: One of the things that you talked about was where the Democrats are overall and where the progressive caucuses.
• 12:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: What you've got to do is figure out how to take some of those progressive caucuses and so it's a very popular and incorporate them into the Democratic position.
• 12:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: The Democrats shouldn't be asking for a little they should be asking for a lot.
• 12:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: They should be pushing hard on a big
• 12:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: You need to kind of nationalize the discussion about what ice is doing.
• 12:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is very important to remember that while we know the names of Renee Good and Alex Prady, we don't necessarily know the names of the many other people who have died in ice detention, who have been killed by ice agents or in Chicago, down in Texas and other places.
• 13:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that the more that we
• 13:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: recognize that this is a broad issue that doesn't just occur in Minneapolis, so manyapolis is central to it.
• 13:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: That will help.
• 13:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: The other thing is to understand that it's unlikely that they're going to be, we talk about debating this.
• 13:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's unlikely that they're actually going to be debating it for two weeks.
• 13:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: What we're really talking about is situation where Congress will be in session for certain amounts of time and there will be maybe some hearings and maybe some
• 13:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Some discussions, but the reality is that these members of Congress will go back to their districts during this period, and it is absolutely vital that progressive forces deliver the message at the district level to Democrats that they expect them to remain as a united force, not to, you know, kind of spit off in one way or another, not to lose sight of what they're focusing on.
• 13:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: I know there is a great anger at the Republicans, but at this point, the critical thing is to keep the Democrats united because that unity, right, if they can be a firmly grounded force in this Congress where the shift of one or two Republican votes could trip up the Republicans, then you get there, but you don't get to that possibility of winning over a Thomas
• 14:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: if you don't have the Democrats fully united.
• 14:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: My last thought here is about Trump, he seems obviously kind of stunned by the size and the commitment and the strength of the resistance that he has provoked.
• 14:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: Just one example from last week, in the group indivisible, and its partners in the no-kings coalition, did an online training last week for observers of ICE.
• 14:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: They called it the ICE training.
• 14:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: 200,000 people showed up for the online training of indivisible to learn how to observe and record ICE.
• 15:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: This is like inconceivable to Trump.
• 15:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: Why would people do this?
• 15:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: They still kind of can't believe in it.
• 15:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's real.
• 15:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: But the fact is it is real.
• 15:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: It is inspiring.
• 15:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: You can read all about it at thenation.com.
• 15:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: John, I understand you have some travel plans for the next couple of days.
• 15:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: job in Minneapolis and talking to folks up there and I think that you're right about when you talk about the the trainings and the activism that is really exploded around the country.
• 15:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can't begin to emphasize to you that one of the reasons why
• 15:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Minneapolis has emerged as such a counterforce to ice and to Trump is because they've done an immense amount of training.
• 15:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've talked to people up there who even in recent weeks, right?
• 15:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: And some of this training goes back for months, even years.
• 16:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: But even in recent weeks, they've announced a training session expected maybe a hundred folks, a hundred folks, and they'll be getting a thousand.
• 16:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: people want to respond to this.
• 16:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: They want to respond to this in Minneapolis.
• 16:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: They also and I've seen it around the country.
• 16:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: They want to respond to it in other cities as well.
• 16:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: There is so much organizing around this issue going on.
• 16:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I do think it is rooted in the tragic
• 16:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: reality that we have lost lives, those of Renee Good and Alex Prade.
• 16:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I also think that it is rooted in a realization that what ISIS doing in Minneapolis targeting vulnerable communities there could become a national reality if we don't push back now.
• 16:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so this is a, you know, we're at a critical juncture, it's exciting to be in Minneapolis, but it's also exciting to be in places all over this country, because the fact of the matter is students are walking out of schools, unions are organizing rallies, mutual support, organizations are, and networks are being developed.
• 17:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is a very electric time politically in this country, while we're all focused as Bruce Strings, he says on the streets of Minneapolis,
• 17:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: This isn't just a miniapolis fight.
• 17:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is a national fight.
• 17:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: John Nichols, read them at the nation.com.
• 17:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: John, we look forward to your reports from miniapolis.
• 17:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: And thanks for talking with us today.
• 17:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's an honor to be with you, brother.
• 17:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: Now it's time to talk about the Super Bowl.
• 17:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's back this Sunday night.
• 17:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: And the half-time show this year is bad bunny.
• 17:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: The gender fluid Puerto Rican singer and rapper.
• 17:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: At the Grammys last Sunday night, he said quote before I say thanks to God, I'm going to say ice out.
• 18:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: That was at the Grammys with audience of 15 million people.
• 18:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: The Super Bowl is much, much bigger.
• 18:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: The Oscars have an audience of 20 million.
• 18:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: The last Super Bowl had 130 million viewers.
• 18:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, the Super Bowl halftime show on Sunday will become the National Center of Opposition to ice into Trump.
• 18:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: How did this happen?
• 18:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: For comment we turn to Dave Ziren, he's the nation's longtime sports editor, host of the Edge of Sports podcast, and the author of 11 books on the politics of sports, including a People's History of Sports in the United States.
• 18:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: He's also co-producer and writer on the documentary behind the shield, the power and politics of the NFL.
• 18:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's streaming now on Roku on two-be other places.
• 18:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: Dave Zyron, welcome back.
• 18:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, it's Grace Be here, John.
• 19:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm just a big fan of the podcast and a big fan of your work.
• 19:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we've complained a lot here about NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell, but this year it's the people on the other side who are doing the complaining.
• 19:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: They're complaining that Bad Bunny sings in Spanish and that he's known internationally as a critic of ICE and Trump and the president himself has complained about the halftime show.
• 19:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: How did this happen?
• 19:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: How did the NFL pick Bad Bunny for the halftime show?
• 19:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not too concerned about what the complainer the loser and chief has to say about bad bunny and no one else should be either.
• 19:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they were angry about bad bunny being chosen to be the halftime show.
• 19:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: because his songs are in Spanish, period.
• 19:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't about him being a critic of ICE.
• 19:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: They don't even understand that he's from Puerto Rico, which is, of course, a commonwealth of the United States.
• 19:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: They say, like, I can't believe a foreigner is doing that.
• 19:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this is just pure.
• 19:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Or maybe they do know he's from Puerto Rico, but this is just pure white supremacist racism, the kind of which were so very useful.
• 20:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: to at this point from this administration, it's disgusting.
• 20:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the same reason why people are being killed in the streets of Minneapolis is why they're complaining about bad bunny.
• 20:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's all one big, connective tissue of white grievance.
• 20:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, ask for bad bunny.
• 20:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Why did they choose him?
• 20:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because Roger Gidell on the National Football League, I think love the color green more than even they love the color white.
• 20:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's a lot of racism in the NFL.
• 20:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: They just did a massive round of
• 20:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: boat chirings, not one black head coach.
• 20:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: One black coach was hired.
• 20:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was all bunch of bunch of white dudes hired for all the jobs.
• 20:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Again, if you look at front offices, it's an embarrassment.
• 20:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: There are no black owners of any teams, only one non-white owner.
• 20:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: But yet, what does bad bunny represent?
• 20:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: He represents being one of the biggest stars on earth.
• 21:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: United States on earth.
• 21:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so the best way to understand this is that the NFL is desperate to be an international brand.
• 21:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: The National Basketball Association is an international brand.
• 21:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Major League Baseball is an international brand and yet
• 21:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: The world has been much more stubborn over the course of a century about embracing what, you know, they call American football, because of course their football is soccer.
• 21:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now for the national football league, who's always thinking growth, growth, growth.
• 21:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: There are a lot of people behind the scenes who are worried that they've tapped out their US audience.
• 21:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so they're looking internationally.
• 21:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: They just signed a contract.
• 21:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Gee, do you think this is a coincidence, John, to play a game next year in Madrid?
• 21:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I don't want to shock your listeners, but in Madrid, the language is Spanish.
• 21:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you have a Spanish speaking, halftime performer, who's considered just the king of Latin track music as he's called, considered one of the best Latino, Latina Rappers ever.
• 22:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: And let's also, let's not overlook the fact that Bad Bunny just won album of the year.
• 22:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's hugely popular in the United States as well.
• 22:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: So this is about the NFL trying to go international, but also responding to the fact that this is one of the biggest artists on earth.
• 22:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Bad Bunny's chosen all these people are complaining about it, white grievance, white grievance, and then the NFL gets another performer and it's green day.
• 22:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: who've basically been saying FU to Trump from the day he went down on that idiotic escalator to be a racist.
• 22:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I found that to be very interesting because that felt like a kind of thumb in the eye to all the people who were complaining about bad bunny.
• 22:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I just want to quote Trump's complaint here.
• 22:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: He did attend the Super Bowl last year.
• 22:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think he was maybe the first president ever to attend a Super Bowl in person.
• 23:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: But now he says he's so unhappy about bad bunny doing the half time show.
• 23:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: He's not even gonna watch the game on TV.
• 23:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: He says quote, I don't know who he is.
• 23:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know why they're doing it.
• 23:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's crazy.
• 23:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: They blame it on some promoter they hired to pick up entertainment.
• 23:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's absolutely ridiculous, quote, quote.
• 23:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: Any comment on statement?
• 23:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, except to say that it's all one tapestry as I said before with the killings of predi and good in Minneapolis.
• 23:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is about white grievance.
• 23:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: This guy has no interest in anything, but a broken United States of America.
• 23:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's built on a supremacist basis.
• 23:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, at the NFL, the chief marketing officer's name is Tim Ellis, told the press in response to questions about the criticisms of the picking bad bunny.
• 23:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: Quote, I don't think I've ever been as proud to work for the NFL as when Roger Goodell got in front of all the journalists and said about the choice of bad bunny for the half-time
• 24:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: It makes us stronger, close quote.
• 24:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: But now, now Roger Godell himself has spoken on Monday.
• 24:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: He gave his annual State of the League address.
• 24:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: And he reassured fans that bad bunny quote understands that his stage at the Super Bowl should be used to unite people and bring people together.
• 24:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: Close quote, what does Godell mean by bring people together?
• 24:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: What I think Roger Gidell means, I've been a student of these Super Bowl press conferences for many, many years.
• 24:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: And Roger Gidell has used them over the years to deflect, deny, and distract, and get fired, actually.
• 24:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Shout out to my friend Jim Trotter, reporters who have something to say.
• 25:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: about the hiring practices of the league.
• 25:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if Roger Gidell wants more unity, he can start by putting his, you know, his foot on the neck of some of these owners to get them to hire some black personnel, either in the coaching booth or in the executive suites.
• 25:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, his his pay-ons to unity just ring very hollow, given the racist hiring practices of the league, which I'm not putting on Gidel, I think it's because the ownership of the national football league.
• 25:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you can tell this by the people who chart their political giving, I mean, their bank rollers of Trump.
• 25:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sure a lot of them, if asked, would not be thrilled about bad money.
• 25:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: being the halftime show, but I bet other ones are very happy about it for the reasons I said before A.K.A.
• 25:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Bad Bunny just went album of the year at the Grammys and Madrid, but make no mistake.
• 25:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: What Roger Gidella is saying to Bad Bunny into the world is shut up and play.
• 26:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so there are openings for Bad Bunny and for Green Day to be political even if they feel that pressure from the NFL to not get up there and say ice out.
• 26:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I've been puzzled by self, and I know something you've thought about a lot.
• 26:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: Why pro football and the NFL is just so much bigger than everything else in America?
• 26:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: We said, like the world series gets 20 million people.
• 26:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: The NBA championships get 20 million people.
• 26:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: The Super Bowl gets 130 million people.
• 26:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: How do you explain the tremendous audience for pro football in America?
• 26:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's remarkable.
• 26:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think of American football.
• 26:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's the last vestige of the monoculture.
• 26:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we live in a time when you and I were coming up, John, you know, the Oscars, that was half the country at least would be tuning in.
• 26:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there was, you know, people of 40 million people would watch the Cosby Show every Thursday.
• 26:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there was this monoculture that existed in this country, which is what happens when you only have three channels, four channels.
• 27:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: But today, with our ridiculous and shittified buffet of choices to entertain ourselves, that and shittify, that's from and shittification, the recent book by Pauli Toro's, whose central argument is for all the progress we're making, everything is just worse.
• 27:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like despite all the choices that we have for some reason the NFL has just gotten bigger and bigger over the last generation, which is why I caught the last vestige of the monoculture and that's why
• 27:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Donald Trump went to the Super Bowl last year because he wanted to stand above it and strike it.
• 27:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, he's too much of a racist to do that if bad Bunny's going to be on the field.
• 27:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: And frankly, he didn't want to go to where the game is going to be played, which is the Bay Area.
• 27:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 27:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I guarantee you it would not have been pretty if he had tried to go there.
• 27:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that you could call Donald Trump not being at the Super Bowl as a tactical
• 28:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: and cultural retreat.
• 28:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, why has the NFL gotten bigger and bigger?
• 28:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'll just put it like this.
• 28:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, three hours of commodified violence in the United States, you're always going to do very well.
• 28:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: That says it all.
• 28:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: I understand bad bunny canceled his recent tour of the continental United States, even though he tours everywhere else in the world, because it fears that ice raids would
• 28:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: And if this show, a Trump administration official has said ice agents will be at the game, Corey Lewandowski, the chief advisor to Chris Christie, no, your favorite secretary of Homeland Security.
• 28:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: Lewandowski said, quote, there is nowhere you can provide safe haven to people or in this country illegal, not the Super Bowl.
• 28:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: We will find you, we will put you in a detention facility, and we will deport you,
• 29:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: How do you picture ice agents operating at a stadium with 68,000 people?
• 29:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: For answer, it is assumed that I think that Corey Lewandowski, who's been a stone cold thug for the last 10 years and put in the public eye,
• 29:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: can absolutely positively each shit.
• 29:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, how does ice operate in this climate?
• 29:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, already, the securitization of the Super Bowl is beyond anything that you get outside of say the Olympics or the World Cup.
• 29:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's going to be drone planes overhead.
• 29:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: And this is typical.
• 29:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's going to be, of course, people who are undercover agents everywhere.
• 29:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, what makes ice different is what they represent in terms of being masked, badgeless, armed, untrained, and absolutely vicious.
• 29:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: And according to a story I read today, not necessarily getting paid.
• 29:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, which is absolutely hilarious.
• 29:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: I hope they all starve.
• 30:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: But the way they'll operate is a real concern.
• 30:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, well, let's hope with Lewandowski as it has been in the case in the past.
• 30:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: His bark is worse than his bite.
• 30:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I'll tell you, if they start arresting people on Moss at the Super Bowl,
• 30:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: The political backlash to that is gonna be very real.
• 30:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Trump attacks the Super Bowl.
• 30:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's like, good, do it, do it.
• 30:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Seriously, and with, like I said, football, it's one of the last things that does bring people together.
• 30:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's even though it's run by right wingers, it is the last message of the monoculture and if Trump tries to put a stake in the heart of that to, wow, good luck to you and the midterms buddy, that is if we have them.
• 30:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: The Super Bowl halftime show on Sunday, it'll become the national center of opposition to Trump.
• 30:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: You can read Dave's Iron and listen through his podcast at TheNation.com.
• 30:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: Dave, thanks for talking with us today.
• 30:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much.
• 31:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: You've been listening to start making sense, a podcast from the Nation magazine.
• 31:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: Renee Reynolds is our associate producer, Alan Minsky is our producer, Jack Merkinson is executive producer.
• 31:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: Baskar Sunkara is president of the Nation, Katrina Vandenhuvul is editor and publisher of the Nation.
• 31:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: Our theme music is from Barcelona, Afro Beach, License by Creative Commons.
• 31:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: You can find out more about Startmaking Sense at thenation.com and you can subscribe to Startmaking Sense on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
• 31:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm John Weiner, thanks for listening.