Latest / Brilliant Minds? / Are WE that unhinged? Therapists Read Reddit Stories
Transcript
- Andrea: Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode of Brilliant Minds. I'm Andrea, and this is my lovely co-host. Olivia: Olivia, also in all the prep we are doing for the show, the five minutes, we kind of match. We miss the fact that we are wearing the same color. Andrea: That's funny, this is the Phoenix specific show merch from last night's concert. It's it has like their name and the show on the bottom of the back. So Olivia: on the bottom of the bag. It's okay. I got this, Andrea: Yeah. You know what I'm saying. Olivia: probably I think this is the tank top I got at Goodwill. That was actually Old Navy. That is the same color Andrea: It's that tank top. Olivia: it's that tank top. The tank top I have like Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: seven, six different versions of. The universe wanted it Yeah, the universe Andrea: That I also have? Olivia: wanted it to be so. I bought a couple at Old Navy and then I found like two more at Goodwill. So Who am I to say no? Andrea: I love it. I love it. Well, let's jump right in before we make this a rabbit trail. we we've been throwing around the idea of like finding Reddit stories and you know, maybe reacting to them or things kind of like here and there throughout the podcast. So we decided to try one of those today, and I was put to the task of finding a Reddit thread. Olivia: I'm a little bit nervous. I'm a little bit nervous. Andrea: Feel like it took it a little easy at first for this one. Olivia: Okay. Andrea: So this comes from the subreddit therapists. so I just like Olivia: Okay. Andrea: went super general, and I found a thread titled Weird and Wacky Therapist Behavior. And the the discussion question, I guess, that was posed was I've been hearing some bizarre stories from new clients recently about former therapists' weird and wacky behavior. Telehealth sessions with their baby, talking the whole first session, asking them to pick up a latte on the way to therapy. What are your stories? I'm not so interested in the fragrant flagrant violations, more so the bizarre and odd ones. What have you got for me? Olivia: Picking up a latte on their way to session? Andrea: Yeah, so that story is actually in this thread. And that was the one where I was like, I actually have to like save this one. And this is what we've gotta like talk about. Because I was like, what's happening? Olivia: Yeah I I can imagine mi like saying that as a joke, but not for real. Andrea: Right. I mean this one person says, asking them to pick up a latte on the way to therapy, I actually laughed out loud reading that, to the surprise of my partner sitting next to me. Quote, You're doing great with your trauma work. Thought you could grab us both a latte to celebrate. Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: Could you imagine? I I couldn't with that one. Like if you were a client, what would how would you react? Would you be like, Yeah, sure? Like, what's your order? Like Olivia: Yeah, okay, so I I've I'm like playing out all this this is why my brain is like you can tell it's buffering 'cause I'm like playing out all the scenarios. If if my therapist was like, hey, you should like grab me a latte? I would call their bluff and I would get them a fucking latte. Andrea: Yeah. I kinda love that. Olivia: as like a power move. I don't know. The it's two sided. One of it is I would do it because like I'm just a kind person and I like I do get coffee for people or you know what I mean? Like, okay fine, whatever. Andrea: Same yeah. Olivia: So part of it's like I would just do it 'cause I'm like, yeah, sure, like I'm already stopping, like, who cares? Like it's a one coffee, right? Whatever. But the other part of me is like, no, I would do it as like a power move. Andrea: Okay. Olivia: Like if you're gonna if you're if a l if a therapist was legitimately to ask me, Hey, can you get me a coffee? I'd be like, Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: yeah, I will. And I'ma make you regret that choice for a long time. We both gonna learn something today. Yes. Andrea: Like in in the sense of like, would you hold that against them forever? Okay. Olivia: Not against not forever. Yeah, not forever. But a hundred Andrea: Right, right, right. Olivia: percent be like So are you gonna Pay me for that or should I send you an invoice or like Andrea: Gonna get a discount on my copay. Yeah. Free. Cover the cost. Olivia: Do you want me to get the receipt? Is it a business expense? I'm confused. I just Andrea: Just start expensing them. Olivia: let's I Andrea: I love that. Olivia: Like I would never do that to a friend. Ever, ever, ever, ever. Like like you would catch Andrea: No. Olivia: me dead before you would catch me like sending a receipt or like an invoice or a request for pay or whatever to a fri I would just I would never do that. I would never do that. I'd just be like, No, I'll cover Andrea: Right? Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: it, I'll figure it out. But yeah. Andrea: Right? Like I've I've offered to bring coffee to like the hair lady I was seeing at the time and like I would just be like, Hey, do you I'm going Olivia: yeah. Andrea: to get coffee and you want me to pick you up something? But never has anybody like any other profession ever asked me for coffee in that type of setting. And if a therapist did that to me, I'd be like so thrown off, I don't think I know what I would do. I don't know what I I don't know. Olivia: Okay, so now I have like two more scenarios to tack Andrea: Yes. Olivia: on. One I have faulty memory, but some of the things I do remember is like people's coffee orders. Andrea: Okay, yeah. Olivia: And so in my mind, like I think if I knew somebody's coffee order, 'cause it's really easy for me to remember it once I know it, that Andrea: Mm. Olivia: like I will just proactively get them coffee 'cause I know their order. So like I might kind of be tempted 'cause I was just playing the scenario through. What if your client showed up with a coffee for you and you didn't ask? Andrea: I was gonna ask you the same thing. I I don't I don't know I my gut instinct would be to take it. Like I'm not gonna throw it away. But also like, I think there's part of my ER training brain, my like working with the unhoused population brain that comes out that's like, you don't take food from clients because you don't know what's in it. Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: So I f I fight that one like rationally and emotionally a little bit and I don't know what I would do. Olivia: Don't know either. Andrea: Someone once told me to like take it and like leave it and not drink it. I just like wait till they leave to decide what to do with it. Olivia: See, okay, if a client went through the effort to get you a coffee, they would notice if you didn't take a drink. There's Andrea: I know, I know. Olivia: no way. I thought about that too and I like, There's no way they would notice you not take a drink. That's not a that's not an option. There's no way. Andrea: Right. and my clients for sure would notice. Yeah. Yeah. This it Olivia: I don't know, if it were me, I would acknowledge like what a pickle it is. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: Be like, oof and I think it would be like, Okay. I really appreciate it. I'll take the coffee. Can I get Andrea: Mm. Olivia: coffee next time? Andrea: That's a good idea. I like that. Olivia: Because then you make it like ev not even, but like Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: it was like transactional enough that like it feels like it cancels out. Does that make any sense? Andrea: That yeah, that totally makes sense. I can totally cut this out if it's not okay. But do you remember that one time we had to fire a supervisor for asking a client to like buy a fridge off of them and like bring them Diet Cokes to sessions? Olivia: Yes. Andrea: I just can't physically be I I can't put myself in the body of a therapist who thinks to like reach out to their client and be like, Hey, will you pick me up a Diet Coke on the way to session? That makes me laugh. Olivia: I mean, I know people go hard in the paint for Diet Coke, like it's a thing, but like Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: Are you that pressed that you have to click get a client to get you your next hit? That's insane. That's insane to me. Andrea: Yeah. I think that's I think that's so funny. Yeah. Olivia: Yeah, I mean I don't know, k yeah, it's the proactive asking, right? Like if the client Andrea: Yes. Olivia: brought it or off like if a client offered I'd be like, that's so kind, like I do love my coffee, like I'm okay today, you know, like Andrea: Yeah, yeah. Olivia: I just you know, whatever. But if a client legitimately got me coffee, I can't say no. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: He's Andrea: I can't say no to caffeine. Like bringing me a Red Bull, a Lotus, a blue like a little lani, I will take it. Olivia: I just I'm still laughing at the idea Yeah, I'm Andrea: That's why these are just so funny. Olivia: still laughing at like Okay, it's also funny too because like well it's extra funny to me in this scenario because both of us work remote, like from home. So we c we don't even have Andrea: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Olivia: the luxury to ask our clients to bring us stuff because we'll never Andrea: I know, I know. Olivia: see our clients in person. Andrea: That's so true. For us that version of that would be like, Hey, can you DoorDash me a coffee before session? Olivia: my god, that would be so much worse because then they know your address. Like there'd be no way that my gosh. But Andrea: yeah. yeah. So bad. So bad. Olivia: in a way, okay, I feel like that picks up on something like really interesting that I didn't think about before, like working remote, Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: you pretty much negate the whole like client gifts thing right out of the like right out of the gate. I didn't even really think about that. Like you Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: don't really have to like say no to client gifts. Andrea: Yeah, totally. I I will be honest, I do kind of miss getting like physical letters. Cause I've had so many clients throughout my career give me handwritten notes or like drawings they've done or like I have a friendship bracelet from a client, like one of those little braided ones. And I will say like I do miss getting like sentimental items like that because it's like they're no of no cost or value to them necessarily. but it means something to me and I can like hold on to that. I have a handwritten letter from one of my therapists or one of my clients that I was seeing in person before COVID. And it was it's just it's still in my drawer and I hold on to it because it reminds me that I am a good therapist when I need that. Olivia: Hmm, that's really lovely. Andrea: Yeah. So I do miss some of that. Olivia: I don't have any of that. Am I a shit therapist? Andrea: No, you went straight into remote basically. Olivia: Yeah, I did. Andrea: So Olivia: Hmm. Hmm. Andrea: Yeah. And I I've I've run into some I've had some weird gift giving stories and maybe we can maybe we can talk about that in another episode, but I've I have some stories. Olivia: Hm. Andrea: Yeah. You ready for another one? Okay. Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: I had a therapist rage quit a group practice and then continue sessions with me at her home. But just in the living room, with her kid walking in and out the whole time. Also, she poured herself wine and started gossiping about her neighbours. Ha ha. Olivia: Drinking in session as Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: a professional. Andrea: Yeah, alcohol, not coffee. Olivia: Well, yeah, I feel like that was implied. But that's fair. That's fair. Andrea: Ha ha Olivia: I mean, I actually had this today. I had an afternoon session, which I normally don't do, and I went Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: to go I went to the fridge to grab a drink and I saw the hard cider and I like, that sounds good and I like almost went to reach for it and I like, No, I'm I'm literally about to work again. People Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: don't have line. Also, to me it's very interesting the idea that The client knew or described it as rage quit. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Like, I feel like that should have been your first red flag of this clinician before the drinking wine in their house during a session. Olivia: And the kid just like randomly like coming in. Andrea: No, I can envision envision this whole scenario happening. Like as a Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: clinician, hell no. If that's happening to my clients, that's funny and like fine, because I don't care if there's kids, if they feel fine with kids. And then a glass of wine is just like the icing on the cake for this. and then she didn't even let the client talk. The therapist just started gossiping about her neighbors. She was like, this is happy hour. Pinky's up. Olivia: This is a wild idea. But wouldn't it be so Andrea: Okay. Olivia: fun to play like kind of fake client kind of of Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: like therapists that we know are like weird like this? Andrea: Mm. Olivia: And like schedule with them? And then and just like play a really intense mind game with them because of the things that they do in session that they clearly should not do in session. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. I I I think about what I would do as a client in some of these circumstances all the time. And I'm like, I I think maybe because I'm a therapist, I would be I would call him out on it. Like I would just be like, is that a glass of wine? Are you gonna share? Like Olivia: Yes. No, I would be like, yo, is that what I think it is? Like is that wine? And I'd be like I'm sorry, like if I got in the way of that. Do you want to reschedule this session? Andrea: Yes. yeah. I might even say, Olivia: Like Andrea: so you can have wine, but I can't. Olivia: Which see, that's a scary question because the therapist could be like, Well, yeah, you can have wine. Then what? Andrea: Right, right. Like, Olivia: Yeah. goodness. Andrea: Would you report a therapist for drinking alcohol decession? Yeah. I think I would too. Yup. for Olivia: Yes. If it was my therap if it was my therapist, yeah. A hundred percent. Andrea: sure. Yeah. Olivia: Yeah. Like Andrea: These these are just like unhinged, but not like so extremely unhinged. They're unhinged. Just cranking them up. Okay, are you ready to turn it up a notch? These are so fun. Olivia: God, there's more. I okay. I'm so scared of what the next notch is gonna be. I mean they're fun but like terrifying at the same time. Okay. Andrea: I know, right? Yeah. Which is why we do this podcast. Education. okay, so this one. one time I met with a therapist as a client, and during that first telehealth session, he slowly revealed to me piece by piece and totally unprompted. That's a weird way to lead into this next paragraph. To start, he was visibly in public. I mean at a Starbucks because he needed to use Wi-Fi. Told me that this was because he was living in his car. Told me that that was because he was stalking his ex-girlfriend across the state. I did not see this therapist after that. And there's a comment, there's a comment that says in all caps, wait, what did you do? That's so fucked up. And he comments and or they comment and says, honestly, in the moment, I just kind of went therapist mode of nodding and listening and validating while internally going, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. While he asked about scheduling a second session, I went, let me take a look at my schedule and get back to you. And then just never did. And he never reached back out. But N not that I would have scheduled a second session if he had, just also, yeah, what a lovely bow to the whole bizarre experience. I had some people telling me to report him to the licensing board, but meh. I was looking for therapy because I was ridiculously burnt out and overwhelmed. I wasn't sure about how to figure out the bureaucracy process of how to do that. So hopefully got his shit short sorted out, I guess. Olivia: There's so many problems with this. One, Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: you're doing telehealth therapy at a public space. Andrea: So wrong. So wrong. Olivia: So I mean like I can't even even to say so wrong to me doesn't even cover it. Andrea: No, not at all. That is a massive violation of ethics and licensure and everything. Olivia: It's not a massive it's like it's a screaming on like a megaphone on Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: a loud speaker, like Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: violation of privacy. So Andrea: Yes. Olivia: there's that. Living out of your car? Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: And not in a cute like Van Lyfe way. But like I need to pee in this bottle Andrea: Correct. Olivia: kind of way. And then to also ha like to also describe what you're doing as stalking. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah, just full on admitted that he was stalking his ex girlfriend. Like, what goes through the minds of these people? Olivia: I feel like nothing and that's the problem? I don't know. I Andrea: I guess. Like what they get through grad school and the only thing that sticks with them is don't sleep with your clients. But even then, this person would probably do that. I bet the ex-girlfriend is probably an ex-client. Olivia: Well that I know Yeah, like they teach ethics in school, like don't sleep with your client and that's still like the number one thing Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: that gets people's licenses taken away. So why even cover Andrea: Right. Yeah. Olivia: it if that's like the main thing that people are doing? Andrea: I know, maybe cover shit like this a little bit more than is that what we Olivia: I know Yeah. Right. Andrea: need to do here? Like Olivia: Yeah. Weird Weird Bad Bad Wrong Andrea: One of my one of my favorite comments on this is, damn, you know, sometimes I get imposter syndrome in this field, but I think knowing that these exist helped me that these therapists exist helped me feel a little better about it. Some people are so special. Olivia: Special That's not even that's not a realistic positive reframe. That's like no. I I'm just playing out this scenario like in different contexts. Like okay, absolutely fucking wild that it's therapist client, right? Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: Plan this out in a friend-to-friend context. You're making a new friend. You say those things, you don't make a new friend. Andrea: Right. Right. Olivia: I hate it. Andrea: Like if somebody was to tell me that like in one of our first hangouts, 'cause it's like one of their first sessions or something. Yeah, I would not Olivia: Yeah, it was the first session. Yeah, if you're me like Yeah. Okay, let's let's take off the like confidentiality privacy privacy thing. You meet somebody at a coffee shop, you're talking, whatever, like friends, and then you're like, yeah, like I'm living out of my car, and like that's like a little weird. Like, okay, like kinda red flag, but okay. And then it's like, I'm stalking my ex girlfriend. You're not making friends. Andrea: No, I'm picking up the phone and I'm pretending to have an emergency phone call and yeetin' the way out of there. Olivia: Yeah, I need to go to the bathroom, walk straight out the front door. Andrea: Exactly. Olivia: So that's what's so funny to me is like you you you take that same dynamic scenario and you put it in a different context and it's still absolutely bonkers wild. Like what Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: what? Andrea: So many things wrong with it. Olivia: so many things. I can't eat I if if I Okay, again, like I just keep I love playing out these scenarios as like if we were the client Andrea: No, it's great. Yeah. Olivia: I would wanna I would try to get the ex girlfriend's like name so I could try to warn her. Andrea: Yeah. Be like I'm duty to warn here in a way. Like Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: do clients have duty to warn? This person was a therapist, so they also have duty to warn. Olivia: Say Feel like in case you don't know, because clearly Andrea: Ha ha ha. Olivia: this guy's bloody obvious In case you don't know, he's living out of his car stalking you. Andrea: Gosh. That's crazy. Olivia: That's what I would do. Andrea: That's so cra like I I didn't even tell my clients yesterday that I was going to a concert at the end of the day. Like, like I do a lot of self- like self-disclosure. I am pretty transparent, Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: but there are some things that I'm not gonna share. Olivia: Yeah. I mean I I have self disclosed more in this like last year than I think I ever Andrea: Mm. Olivia: have. And I think it's been really like it's all overall been really positive. But yeah, like this is not Andrea: Mm. Olivia: that's not self disclosure. That's self destructing. Andrea: y yeah. telling on myself right now. Like Olivia: Yeah, it I mean it's not even sabotage. You're not even self sabotaging. You are destructing. You are collapsing in on yourself like a dying star. That's it. I Andrea: Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. These people are hilarious. Yep. Olivia: I'm so glad you turned up the notch. Okay. Andrea: This one, I'm curious. I don't think we're turning up the notch necessarily, but I think it's funny. and a lot of these are first visits, which I think is a very common trend. in some of these Olivia: Hmm. Andrea: like weird and wacky things. Cause I've even had a weird and wacky encounter with a therapist that was our first visit. So like maybe that's a good thing. But a Olivia: Get it out of the way first, kinda thing. Yeah, okay. Andrea: Yeah, yeah. But a lot of these are first visits. So this is another one. And it says first visit. I walk into his waiting room. The door to his office was wide open, but I waited for a few minutes, eventually going to the doorway to just let him know I was there. He was sitting on the floor, surrounded by at least twelve plastic ring binders open to the gro open on the ground around him. I said, Hi, we have a three o'clock appointment? He looks at me with an expression best described as hapless. I can't help you. I can't help anyone. He went back to his binders and I went back to my apartment. Olivia: Is that like is that like a clinician version of a crop circle? Andrea: Y yeah, some of these comments are so funny. It's like, I love this for a sitcom. Sounds like my internal voice in person form. Man, you walked on you walked in on a man having a moment, like something out of a Cohen Brothers film. Olivia: I mean, have I said the exact same thing but jokingly to clients a hundred percent multiple times? I can't help Andrea: yeah. yeah. Olivia: anyone, why are you talking to me about it? Like what you know, like but to be like mid meltdown? Andrea: Yeah. I feel like this is a different version of if, hypothetically, this never happened to me, if a client walked in on one of my eight minute naps. I would probably be mortified, number one, if somebody walked in and I was asleep on the couch that they were about to be sitting on. A lot of the times those naps I had like my exam like cards, like flashcards on my chest because I had fallen Olivia: Pla ha Andrea: asleep at them. It's like this feels like the equivalent to that, but like at least I'm not having a meltdown and I'm not like I can't help you. Like you had a scheduled fucking appointment. Olivia: Okay, it's like we have to circle back to the bash. Andrea: Yes. Olivia: Let me get this straight. You were routinely taking eight minute naps. You were like, New new hour, new me, I'm gonna do these flashcards. You legitimately committed to flashcards for eight minutes and still fell asleep doing flashcards. my god! Andrea: So it probably means I looked at flashcards for two minutes and then fell asleep for a total of ten minutes. Olivia: That's insane. That is Andrea: That was a time in my life. Olivia: That was a time. That is the nicest way to say that. dear God I mean I have I did flashcards. I love flashcards. I don't know Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: what it is about flashcards. Love them. I took flashcards to like all of my like pregnancy appointments in my last trimester. Andrea: Mm, that's a great idea. Olivia: And they're like what are you studying for? And I'd be like, Well, believe it or not, I could be licensed. So Andrea: Ha ha Olivia: I gotta study. And I've literally been getting Andrea: Okay. Olivia: like all these like anatomy scans. I'm like, there's this and I'm like, Yep, mm-hmm, okay. Andrea: Could you imagine though having your flashcards and client walking in on you and you're just like, go away! I can't Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: do anything for you. Olivia: Again, I can jokingly admission that Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: but not seriously. See, that's that's a therapist Andrea: I Olivia: that needs clients to bring them coffee. Andrea: Yeah. Yes, truly truly. Olivia: dear God. that's too funny. Andrea: I just was that was just a funny little one. Olivia: I love that so much. Andrea: let's see. There's a whole bunch of these and I can like save them for a while. if we want to. There's like this one, therapist lights up and gets baked during my online session. He had some cool insights, but way off most of the time. That's it. It just gets better. I had a therapist once who was so inappropriate. I was sobbing about a breakup and she answered her phone in session and accepted a date from the guy who called. Talk about not reading the room. She also would spread her legs wide apart and mimic self-pleasure to tell me to F myself more and get over my ex. Wild trip was was doing therapy therapy with her. I just I my flabbers are gasted. Like Olivia: Hmm? You can just There's so many better words. You Andrea: Take it from the top. Olivia: I mean Okay, the full commitment of not only not like not using a like more c not casual but like professional's not right either. Let's just go with better. Not using a better term for like self-play basically First off Andrea: Yeah. Masturbation. Like you couldn't have just used that. Olivia: Masturbate like s and a anything, yeah, that's yeah, exactly. Like self-pleasure, so pla like whatever whatever. Like any of those words would be better. But you do like full commit to saying fuck yourself and then also Andrea: Uh-huh. Olivia: commit to the full body language of it. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: Like the reenactment of Andrea: huh. Olivia: Also the irony of that said being said by someone who's willing to interrupt therapy meeting to accept a date. Like the irony of that. Andrea: Right? Like, are these therapists I'm I'm curious if you have any theories, all of these stories, do we is the theory that they're so burnt out that they have lost all control of impulse, or are they just stupid? Olivia: I feel like Andrea: Or both. Olivia: I feel like it's a little bit of every like okay. I think it's like a little bit Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: of burnout. Okay. I think it's they're stupid. They're burnout and they're isolated. So they have like no Andrea: Mm. Olivia: accountability, you know what I mean? Like they're kinda Andrea: Mm. Olivia: like these these are the people that I feel like are in private practice. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: That are like very isolated from other people in the field or colleagues where they'd like have that accountability Andrea: Mm. Olivia: to be For a colleague to be like, what are you doing? You know what I mean? So between like the burnout and like they're kinda just I don't even know if I would say dumb. I would say maybe just like they don't have the insight, which some would say is dumb. I don't know if I would say that's actually dumb. Just like don't have the insight. Burnout. And then like isolate it to the point where they think what they're doing is fine. Andrea: Just such a wild path to take in burnout to me, still. It like I have been in burnout, I have experienced how hard it can be to get out of it. I know that it's hard to recognize. But there is no bone or brain cell in my body that would think to do any of this. Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: I I think if I was to do anything in a session, not that I have, it would be like complete spaciness. It would be more of like, I can't focus. I'm really struggling to focus type vibes rather than like bring me a coffee or light up a joint or like gonna bring a glass of wine. Like I I just cannot fathom that decision making process in my brain. Olivia: I mean maybe maybe the idea actually is is that you're thinking there is a decision making process happening and there isn't one? Andrea: Mm, that's a very good point. And that's maybe where the stupid comes in. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah, I mean like I remember I had an old coworker that used to say like I think this is a pretty common saying, like, common sense isn't is becoming not so common. And like these these Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Olivia: feel like common sense things to me. That's what's so wild about them. It's Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: like w what what do you mean they what do you mean they're stalking their ex girlfriend and living in a car? What what do you mean? Andrea: Mm. Right. Right. Olivia: Like w w what do you mean they're doing it from their living room with a glass of wine? Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: Like all it's Andrea: Yeah, I I mean the there probably wasn't a a conscious decision for any of these, but like you do have a choice. Like as a person, where is your sense of agency? Where did that go? Olivia: Yeah, c could could we put the thought process back in the in thought process like please. Andrea: Truly, truly, even my best friend and I will say, like, can we bring back shame? Which like by no means do I think people should live with shame, but in this in the sense that like some Olivia: Sorry. Andrea: sometimes I'm out in public and I'm like, do these people have no shame? Do you have no sense that like of common sense bring back shame? Like be ashamed. You should be ashamed of the of having a glass of wine in your session. You should be ashamed for acting out masturbation. Lord. Olivia: I don't know why that like really hit me. The livery was good. I mean Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: Yeah, it's it's it kinda reminds me of like how I feel like affirmations have like almost backfired with my daughter. Andrea: Yeah, yes, yes. Olivia: Where I'll like, you know, like you're so strong or you're so brave. And she'd be like, I know I am. You always say that. I'll be like, okay, my bad. Andrea: Queen. Olivia: That's like, shit. My bad. Yeah. Andrea: Sorry. Olivia: If it feels like we've gone to like, hey, like, be yourself, be unique, like do your own thing, and now we're like, feel shame. Please stop. Andrea: Mm. Yeah. Just a little bit, please. Olivia: Yeah, like Can you like have some spatial awareness at the grocery store and like get your shit out of the way? Andrea: or the airport. Olivia: Yeah, can you like can we can we all Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: collectively deal with this, please? Yes. Andrea: Yeah. Like we've swung from one end to the other end on on some of this shit, right? Like let's let's bring it back. Let's I'm tired. Olivia: You know what I was Okay, so this is this is field related but and it's kind of okay, so it's field and boundary related. I was thinking about this today. It's not directly related to stuff we've been talking about. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: 'Cause I was thinking about the idea, you know how like different people in different professions will like trade each other things? Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Olivia: We like can't do that. Andrea: This is such an interesting topic because I recently started reading the decolonizing therapy book and I haven't finished it, so I can't speak Olivia: Mm. Andrea: too deeply on it. But barter is one of the things that therapists in the decolonizing like that work in that lens, which I think is a wonderful lens in so many ways. They really like in I wouldn't say encourage, but they like find that to be kind of culturally appropriate in some settings, which I thought was really interesting. Olivia: Hmm. Andrea: but at the same time, like, I would I personally feel like I would have a hard time with that. Because I feel like the relationship shifts. Olivia: Well let's play that little bit differently. Maybe it's not like therapy Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: services, but what if it's like supervision? Andrea: That I think I'd be more okay with. I mean I I barter and trade for services as a photographer all the time. I just got my hair done for free. But it's like, yeah. Olivia: Well that's what it made me think about it. I like, that's so cool I was like, I have no skills that I can bar Andrea: You probably do, but you just don't. I don't know, you make cookies. They make really damn good cookies. Olivia: Yeah, but Like how many cookies is a haircut? You know what I mean? Like how cookies how many cookies is a hair c I d Andrea: But I I get what you're saying. I know it's a lot of cookies. Olivia: I over like a long period of time, like I'll just Andrea: Yeah, yeah. Olivia: pay the forty bucks for a haircut. Like I don't this is I don't need to be making cookies for this. Andrea: Right, it has it it has to be equivalent, right? And the the the service has to be somewhat equal in that. And then with therapy, there's so many like I don't know. The f why does the first thing that come to my mind with this type of topic is like massages? Like I'm not trading therapy for a massage. Olivia: W n why was that your first thing that you thought? I did not think that. Andrea: I mean, like why I mean, I think that's probably on my mind because that's something that I'm working on trading for photography services is a massage. So like a branding shoot for for a massage, which is pretty equal. and but like so my brain thinks about that, like or hair even. Where it's like those are kind of similar ish in like How you would interact with the person. Like when I sit down to get my hair done, right, we talk and tell them about my life and whatever. But I think I couldn't do that if the hair person was my therapy client. Or like with a massage, I'm taking my shirt off. Like I no. I'm not having my client touch me. Nope. Olivia: But like e okay, in the scenario with like massage as the like other service to like barter with, you wouldn't wanna I mean okay, I can speak for you. I wouldn't wanna do a like a supervisee. Andrea: Okay, fair, nope. couldn't do that. It's so I think it's like so case specific. Olivia: Right. Okay, well so you know how we're gonna be taking that training to do like, like ADHD evals and stuff? But they're gonna be like one time evals. Okay, Andrea: Yeah. Right. Olivia: would you do a barter for a one time eval? Andrea: Yeah. Potentially. Olivia: Because here's where I think it gets really dicey. Andrea: Okay. Olivia: Okay, you like you get a haircut. Okay. Hair color. Haircut and color. How about that? The colour gets fucked up. Andrea: Hmm. Olivia: You know how like our Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: side of service can't really like Okay. This is a very narcissistic thing to say. I'm like, I don't Andrea: Watch yourself. Olivia: really think there's a way to I don't think there's a way to like truly mess up the service that of the side that we would provide, like an evil or like a supervision. Andrea: I mean unless you are one of these Reddit therapists. Olivia: Okay, that's fair. But like any service we would get, there could be like a high likelihood Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: that we don't like the outcome. Like what if it's like a photography Andrea: yeah. Olivia: session and you don't like the photos? Andrea: Yeah, I know. Olivia: Or like a hair, you don't like the hair. Like, can't do massage? Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: So like, okay, that's out. Like Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: What are you gonna like cater my kid's birthday? Like that's no Andrea: And and it's also not like Let's say cake making. Right? If I if I had a client that was a baker that was really good at making cakes and I saw their work and I was like, Hey, I have an event coming up, we can trade a session for a cake. Maybe, but that that's not how timing works. Like Olivia: that's an interesting idea. Like if you were already working with a client. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: Hm. Interesting. Andrea: Yeah. My brain goes into a million places with that too. Like d how do you document that? Olivia: Well you have to document it like normal but you wouldn't bill for it, right? Andrea: Right. Olivia: So 'cause it'd be like a pro bono session. I'm thinking about Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: like, if you actually did that, would you have to come up with some other type of like form or like agreement for the client to sign that's specific to that session? Andrea: Probably. Olivia: Yeah. Right? Andrea: I I would assume so. Olivia: I mean I would that's my my first thought is that you'd probably have to do something. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I I think the idea is really cool. Like I I love bartering and trading when I can. It just is so nuanced, I think, when it comes to our field in specific. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah, do you seek out bartering? Andrea: For photography? Mhm. Olivia: Yeah, yeah. Andrea: Yeah. So I'm actively looking for a tattoo artist right now. If there's any tattoo artists out there who want a branding session. But I do photos with like a gym and the gym owner also is an esthetician, so she sometimes will tip me in a facial, like, or like I'll give her a discount for a facial or something like that. Or cause it's not quite the same cost wise. hair, I'm gonna get some massages done. I've gotten t shirts made before, like graphic design. Olivia: That's cool. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: I need to come up with a barterable skill. Andrea: Ha ha ha Olivia: These just aren't enough, you know? Andrea: Yeah, that's true. You're really Olivia: Like Andrea: good at decorating for your daughter's parties. Olivia: No. Have to deal with like Pinterest moms? No. Andrea: Mm, that's fair. That's fair. I do I mean, I do think that this is kind of similar to what we were talking about earlier, too, with like the gifts thing. I think there's a lot of nuance to it. I think that there's also some cultural implications to these things too, where there are so many cultures out there, right? That's like bartering is so part of their like integral to their culture and like Giving gifts, especially food gifts, like in South American cultures is really big. like if somebody brought me tamales to a session, you bet your ass I'm eating those tamales. Like, yeah. Which has happened. Olivia: I like how the coff yeah, you're like I like how with the coffee you're like, Hm, I don't know, I think I might say yes and tamales you're like, I'm eating them. First thing. I don't care if they're laced with anything, I'm eating them. Andrea: Ha ha Olivia: Now you know like your spectrum Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: of food gifts that you'll receive. Andrea: Totally. Cookies, I won't eat. Olivia: Rude. Andrea: I mean I worked with a Olivia: Can't partner with you. Andrea: I worked with a practice that they were like anytime you get food from a client 'cause we worked with a lot of like Latin communities it from in that space and we would get a lot of food and they would be like, You have to share it with the whole office. That was like a written rule in our like employment. Was like if you get gifts or food you ha you cannot keep it yourself. You have to put it in the break room. Olivia: I mean I I I like what was motivating that, but I think I like it Andrea: Yes. Olivia: more foundationally because I think that does neutralize like accepting gifts from clients because then you don't feel like you can Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Olivia: like you have to say no, you can always say yes, but Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: then it's automatically getting shared. It's not like you, just you. Yeah. Andrea: Right. Yeah. Couldn't do that with a latte though. That's a little we're not gonna pass that around. Olivia: Not gonna make her dose lattes across the office. Andrea: Ha ha ha. Olivia: Weird, why not? I don't know why you wouldn't do that. Andrea: It's stupid. There Olivia: huh. Andrea: I think all of this to say too like there's a lot of boundaries that we as therapists hold and like experience and we hold in so much about our personal lives and we help people process their own and obviously sometimes it leaks out and people don't have common sense and know how to hold it in. Olivia: I don't even say it would leak. I think it was like Niagara Falls. Andrea: As Yep, exploding. Yeah. wait, Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: no, Niagara Falls is not a dam. Niagara Falls is a waterfall. Olivia: Y yeah. I was like, well, I don't know why you're making the Niagara Falls explode, but sure, dramatic effect. Why not? Andrea: Chris you know, Michael Bay is in my brain explosions. Olivia: Ha I mean there are things. Andrea: I'm having an ADHD day. Well, well, I yes. Uh-huh. Yes. Olivia: Oof. Okay, next okay, next episode I will find stories and then I'll read them to you. Andrea: I love this. I had so much fun doing this little Reddit thing. So thank you for coming along with our first little dose of Reddit discussion. I think this will be fun to do here and there to mix up some of the discussions and things that we do. Reddit is an endless pit of excitement. So Olivia: Endless pit of commentary. Andrea: So true. But thank you Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: all for listening and following along with us. Please stay tuned for our next episode, which is a rabbit trail. Olivia: See you later, everyone. Bye. This podcast is for entertainment, informational, educational purposes only. Although the hosts are licensed therapists, this podcast is not a substitute for professional mental health services. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist-client relationship. Andrea: If you are experiencing mental health concerns, please seek help from a qualified mental health professional in your area. If you are in crisis, call or text a suicide prevention line in your country immediately. In the U.S., you can call or text 988 or use online chat at 988lifeline.org.