Latest / The Parenting Podcast / Q&A : What About When They Lie? | Ep. 76

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Q&A : What About When They Lie? | Ep. 76 · The Parenting Podcast

• 0:06
  Cheryl: Hello and welcome to the Parenting Podcast.
• 0:10
  Cheryl: I'm your host, Brene Brown.
• 0:12
  Cheryl: No, I'm not.
• 0:13
  Cheryl: I'm Cheryl Lang, but I was giving you a foretaste at today's topic, which is about the issue of lying.
• 0:22
  Cheryl: Our conversation circles around approaching this subject.
• 0:25
  Cheryl: From many different sides, and one of them is motivation.
• 0:29
  Cheryl: For example, my motivation for not telling the truth about my name.
• 0:34
  Cheryl: Was to catch your attention about the subject matter of this episode.
• 0:39
  Cheryl: Listen in as the recording team of Christie Ellen and myself honestly shares about some of our own struggles with this issue, which is not a one and done as it might appear at first, but a multifaceted aspect in our parenting.
• 1:04
  Cheryl: so let's go back into our electronic mail bag.
• 1:06
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 1:07
  Cheryl: And pull out some of the questions that parents have sent us.
• 1:10
  Cheryl: Sounds good.
• 1:11
  Cheryl: Uh, we have so many.
• 1:14
  Cheryl: here's one, what to do about dishonesty and how to stop lying because she wants to fit in.
• 1:23
  Ellen: Hmm.
• 1:25
  Ellen: Yeah.
• 1:25
  Ellen: That's a, that's a hard one.
• 1:27
  Ellen: Mm-hmm.
• 1:27
  Ellen: That's
• 1:28
  Cheryl: a big no.
• 1:29
  Cheryl: You know, when I was a young mom, I thought there was a quick fix for this.
• 1:34
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 1:34
  Cheryl: We could do it.
• 1:35
  Cheryl: Yes.
• 1:36
  Cheryl: You know, have a good story on Bill.
• 1:39
  Cheryl: So there were two years between Bill and his brother.
• 1:42
  Cheryl: His brother was in first grade and learning to write his name.
• 1:47
  Cheryl: So at four, bill wanted to learn to so he said, mom, show me.
• 1:50
  Cheryl: So he practiced and practiced and he loved it.
• 1:53
  Cheryl: So he started writing on things.
• 1:54
  Cheryl: And he would get in trouble.
• 1:56
  Cheryl: No Bill, you can write on paper, don't write on other things.
• 2:00
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 2:01
  Cheryl: So he got smart.
• 2:02
  Cheryl: His sister Nancy.
• 2:03
  Cheryl: Was just two So in their old bathroom it was these tiny little flowers, but they had space in it.
• 2:11
  Cheryl: And so he went in there with a.
• 2:13
  Cheryl: A marker and wrote Nancy.
• 2:17
  Cheryl: Oh gosh I mean, they left that wallpaper up for a long time, so I actually got to see it, but he wasn't trying to deceive.
• 2:25
  Cheryl: Yeah He was actually proud of his new skill and just reasoned, I think, pretty innocently.
• 2:33
  Cheryl: That deception just made it possible.
• 2:36
  Cheryl: and he thought to remain anonymous he could just get away with it.
• 2:40
  Cheryl: I think that's a lot of what we deal with, particularly young, right?
• 2:43
  Cheryl: what about y'all?
• 2:44
  Cheryl: Did y'all struggle with lying when you were little?
• 2:47
  Cheryl: Um,
• 2:48
  Christie: I don't, I don't remember.
• 2:49
  Christie: I mean, the adults of my life might have better stories to tell with me, but I don't remember lying much.
• 2:56
  Christie: Yeah.
• 2:56
  Christie: Honesty's pretty important to me.
• 2:58
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 2:59
  Christie: And so, um, I know I had a million other issues, but this wasn't the big one for me.
• 3:05
  Christie: Oh, I
• 3:05
  Ellen: lied all the time.
• 3:06
  Ellen: Oh.
• 3:07
  Ellen: I mean, You know, I, it was a hobby.
• 3:09
  Ellen: Uhhuh.
• 3:09
  Ellen: I mean, I lied when I didn't even need to lie.
• 3:12
  Ellen: Wow.
• 3:12
  Ellen: but I was also an exaggerator.
• 3:14
  Ellen: Okay.
• 3:15
  Ellen: So kind of balancing those two.
• 3:17
  Ellen: You know, I had an imagination, so I was always making up stories and telling stories and, you
• 3:22
  Cheryl: know, well, even now, if you love to tell a good story.
• 3:24
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 3:25
  Cheryl: And there are times when you tell stories and Yes.
• 3:27
  Cheryl: Not always sure where the lines are.
• 3:29
  Cheryl: Right.
• 3:30
  Cheryl: What really happened and what makes a good story.
• 3:32
  Cheryl: Right,
• 3:32
  Christie: exactly.
• 3:33
  Christie: I definitely relate with.
• 3:34
  Christie: That when I start broadening the definition of lying, right.
• 3:37
  Christie: You know, to tell a good story and entertain a a group, it's a little bit more
• 3:41
  Ellen: and it, and if it's an important story that has a deeper meaning, I'll try to be more accurate.
• 3:47
  Ellen: But if it's just like, you know, yesterday I went and did this and you know, it cost, instead of saying it cost 10 99, I was like about 15 bucks.
• 3:56
  Ellen: You know, 90 day.
• 3:57
  Cheryl: And Well you've said before, you've told me Mike would get very upset with you.
• 4:02
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 4:02
  Cheryl: Because.
• 4:03
  Cheryl: Talk about being a rule follower.
• 4:05
  Cheryl: He was, you know, if it was it's accurate, one daughter and 46 cents, you could not round it up to 2050.
• 4:12
  Cheryl: Ah, well he worked
• 4:13
  Ellen: Intel in the military, so there's no exaggeration in that, and he's really precise.
• 4:17
  Ellen: I think our first fight was when we were first married was that we had gone to a party and I had shared a story and then he came back and he goes, I can't believe you lied like that.
• 4:29
  Ellen: And I said, what are you talking about?
• 4:31
  Ellen: And then he kind of picked apart my.
• 4:35
  Ellen: Looseness with the details.
• 4:37
  Ellen: It was just a story.
• 4:39
  Ellen: But then I realized, okay, we really have a broad difference in Uhhuh, you know, and I've kind of helped him a little bit to go, when you tell a story to a group, they do not want.
• 4:50
  Ellen: When an intel officer would give them every single detail of what happened.
• 4:55
  Ellen: You know, give them a little bit broader.
• 4:57
  Ellen: You don't have to exaggerate Liberty.
• 4:58
  Ellen: Liberty, yes.
• 5:00
  Ellen: Whereas, you know, I always have to go, oh, okay, this, that, do I have to be like, really precise on this story Uhhuh, you know?
• 5:06
  Ellen: Mm-hmm.
• 5:06
  Ellen: And so that was
• 5:07
  Cheryl: a difference.
• 5:08
  Cheryl: Well, and also particularly when they're little.
• 5:12
  Cheryl: Um, my granddaughters were over the other day and I love, my birds in my backyard and.
• 5:19
  Cheryl: So we talk about'em and look at'em and they say, can we get out the binoculars?
• 5:22
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 5:22
  Cheryl: So we were looking at the different birds and talking about it, and the younger one is four and I don't think she can always figure out how to use the binoculars.
• 5:33
  Cheryl: Right.
• 5:34
  Cheryl: To really find what we're looking at.
• 5:36
  Cheryl: Right.
• 5:36
  Cheryl: You know, so, and she was looking and going up and she said, Oh, I see a bolt eagle.
• 5:44
  Cheryl: She goes, I know it.
• 5:45
  Cheryl: It's right up there.
• 5:46
  Cheryl: I see a bolt, eagle and her sister world at me and looked going, and I just put my hand up.
• 5:53
  Cheryl: It's like, I go, you really do?
• 5:54
  Cheryl: I don't see it.
• 5:55
  Cheryl: The bolt eagle.
• 5:57
  Cheryl: And she goes, yeah, it's right up there in the tree.
• 5:59
  Cheryl: You know, so right.
• 6:01
  Cheryl: There is a place that's actual lying and then there's a place, particularly when they're little.
• 6:06
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 6:06
  Cheryl: I don't think they even Right.
• 6:09
  Cheryl: Always know where the line is.
• 6:11
  Cheryl: Right, right.
• 6:11
  Ellen: And maybe in her mind she did see a bald eagle.
• 6:14
  Ellen: Ahuh eagle.
• 6:15
  Ellen: Just cuz you couldn't
• 6:16
  Cheryl: see.
• 6:16
  Cheryl: That's exactly right.
• 6:18
  Cheryl: and I remember because I was.
• 6:20
  Cheryl: Very conscientious when they were little.
• 6:23
  Cheryl: So concerned with everything you know how you are, particularly when they're first ones.
• 6:29
  Cheryl: And I started noticing like about three, all of my children.
• 6:36
  Cheryl: Did begin to not tell me the truth.
• 6:39
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 6:40
  Cheryl: And I was wondering why is it at that stage?
• 6:43
  Cheryl: And I think it's developmental and probably psychologists could tell me why, but also I think it was when they're younger.
• 6:53
  Cheryl: Did you eat the cookie?
• 6:54
  Cheryl: Yes.
• 6:54
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 6:55
  Cheryl: Okay.
• 6:55
  Cheryl: And the.
• 6:56
  Cheryl: Didn't like the consequences or whatever, but they came the conclusion, oh, mom and dad believe whatever I tell them.
• 7:03
  Cheryl: Mm.
• 7:04
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 7:04
  Cheryl: So it doesn't matter.
• 7:05
  Cheryl: They didn't have a conscience that it was a lie.
• 7:09
  Cheryl: It's just, oh, I'll tell them and they'll believe it.
• 7:11
  Cheryl: Right.
• 7:12
  Cheryl: Even when it wasn't true, and by the
• 7:13
  Ellen: time they're three or four, they understand consequences.
• 7:17
  Ellen: Yes.
• 7:17
  Ellen: Before that.
• 7:18
  Ellen: They don't really know that, okay, do this.
• 7:20
  Ellen: Then I might get in trouble for that.
• 7:22
  Ellen: Mm-hmm.
• 7:22
  Ellen: Yeah.
• 7:22
  Ellen: But by three they're understanding, oh, I was told not to touch it and I touched
• 7:27
  Christie: it.
• 7:27
  Christie: Yes.
• 7:27
  Christie: Yeah.
• 7:27
  Christie: At first the lying is, is just another tool in their tool belt.
• 7:30
  Christie: Yes.
• 7:31
  Christie: And then they realize the, um, moral issue behind this.
• 7:35
  Christie: Yes.
• 7:35
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 7:36
  Cheryl: Well, what are some of the other motivations, do you think, whatever age with your children, what are some of the motivations why you lied or why they might lie?
• 7:45
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 7:45
  Cheryl: Like with this, I think she.
• 7:47
  Cheryl: Was kind of frustrated.
• 7:49
  Cheryl: She's the little one she doesn't get to see and do everything that everybody else can on that higher level and wanted to have a good story to tell.
• 7:57
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 7:58
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 7:58
  Christie: That makes sense.
• 7:58
  Christie: Yeah.
• 7:58
  Christie: I think like the mom that's asking this question to fit in.
• 8:02
  Christie: Yeah.
• 8:02
  Christie: I see.
• 8:03
  Christie: Um, some of my more competitive kids wants to have an advantage or tell a better story that puts themselves in a better life, right?
• 8:11
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 8:12
  Christie: Or, um, You know, get what they want.
• 8:14
  Christie: Yeah.
• 8:15
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 8:15
  Christie: Yeah.
• 8:15
  Christie: It's a good means to get what you want sometimes at all costs, and
• 8:19
  Ellen: sometimes people, um, you know, kids will do it out of pain.
• 8:23
  Ellen: Mm-hmm.
• 8:23
  Ellen: Wow.
• 8:24
  Ellen: Like my, you know, my parents were divorced when I was three, so, Back in the sixties you know, you were in the minority to be from a divorced family.
• 8:34
  Ellen: Mm-hmm.
• 8:34
  Ellen: Yeah.
• 8:34
  Ellen: I mean, it's not like it is now.
• 8:36
  Ellen: So I was one of the few kids in the class that didn't have a dad.
• 8:39
  Ellen: Oh wow.
• 8:40
  Ellen: So that was really painful.
• 8:42
  Ellen: So I just made up a story that he died in the war.
• 8:45
  Ellen: Well, I watched a lot of World War.
• 8:47
  Ellen: Two movies with my grandfather.
• 8:49
  Ellen: So you know, of course by third grade I have no idea of a timeline.
• 8:53
  Ellen: Yeah.
• 8:53
  Ellen: But I just made up, oh, my dad died in the war.
• 8:55
  Ellen: Mm-hmm.
• 8:56
  Ellen: And that was easier than saying, my parents are divorced and I don't see my dad.
• 9:00
  Ellen: It's true.
• 9:00
  Ellen: Right?
• 9:01
  Ellen: Oh.
• 9:01
  Ellen: So sometimes we do that out of pain regardless of our age.
• 9:05
  Ellen: Oh, I don't wanna tell the whole truth cuz it's really painful mm-hmm.
• 9:09
  Cheryl: You know, and I did it like Sometimes to fit in, I'll tell you.
• 9:14
  Cheryl: Okay.
• 9:15
  Cheryl: So I date myself, when I was in seventh grade culture, historical event happened.
• 9:23
  Cheryl: The Beatles went on to the Ed Sullivan show.
• 9:27
  Cheryl: Hmm.
• 9:27
  Cheryl: And all you younger people cannot understand the impact that that has had.
• 9:31
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 9:32
  Cheryl: There was never.
• 9:33
  Cheryl: Anything like this where people became fans, Swifties.
• 9:39
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 9:39
  Cheryl: You know?
• 9:40
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 9:40
  Cheryl: There wasn't, I don't know what the word would be for Beatles.
• 9:42
  Cheryl: Just Beatlemania.
• 9:43
  Cheryl: Beatlemania.
• 9:44
  Cheryl: Yes.
• 9:45
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 9:45
  Cheryl: And that we knew all their names and Right.
• 9:48
  Cheryl: Just their favorite
• 9:49
  Ellen: color.
• 9:50
  Ellen: Oh, everything.
• 9:51
  Ellen: Whether it was or not,
• 9:52
  Cheryl: it took over the entire culture.
• 9:54
  Cheryl: Yes, that's true.
• 9:54
  Cheryl: Truly.
• 9:56
  Cheryl: Made a change in the way our culture in the world goes.
• 10:00
  Cheryl: So we were doing seventh grade cuz we just talked about it all the time.
• 10:04
  Cheryl: We had nothing to say.
• 10:05
  Cheryl: So during the break at lunch, and I didn't remember this till we're talking about this.
• 10:11
  Cheryl: We would say, oh, I had a dream last night.
• 10:13
  Cheryl: And we would tell each other our dreams, but it would be cuz we were with the Beatles.
• 10:19
  Cheryl: And so it was absolute lying.
• 10:21
  Cheryl: Every one of us was lying to each other, but we were too old to have Pretend imagination stories.
• 10:28
  Cheryl: Oh, okay.
• 10:29
  Cheryl: So we glossed it over saying it was a dream.
• 10:32
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 10:32
  Cheryl: But what it would've been if we'd been younger, we would've said, oh, and then I had this imagination.
• 10:37
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 10:37
  Cheryl: So then we would just, you know, Like Paul came over to my house and so we were talking about something and so I drove with him and that was the kind of stories we made up.
• 10:46
  Cheryl: But we did it to fit in with each other.
• 10:48
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 10:48
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 10:49
  Cheryl: You know, and the other place that I lied, I didn't like to get in trouble.
• 10:53
  Cheryl: I was a pretty good kid, that I was willing to lie mm-hmm.
• 10:56
  Cheryl: To stay out of trouble.
• 10:57
  Cheryl: And then the other was if I wanted the other person not to think badly of me.
• 11:02
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 11:03
  Cheryl: And I was willing to lie.
• 11:05
  Cheryl: To so that they wouldn't feel bad about themselves or they would feel better about me.
• 11:09
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 11:10
  Cheryl: Right.
• 11:10
  Cheryl: And so I would lie about it, you know?
• 11:11
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 11:12
  Christie: I think that that would be the biggest place I would lie, was a kid was expectations.
• 11:17
  Christie: Yeah.
• 11:17
  Christie: Like to meet somebody's expectations of me.
• 11:20
  Christie: Exactly.
• 11:20
  Christie: Or you know, if I didn't feel like I was enough in the situation.
• 11:23
  Christie: What did you do on your summer vacation?
• 11:27
  Ellen: I told the whole class one time we had these windmills in California, the big, like kind of Dutch windmills.
• 11:34
  Ellen: Oh really?
• 11:34
  Ellen: Yeah.
• 11:34
  Ellen: But, but it was part of a touristy thing.
• 11:36
  Ellen: But you know, you, it was on the coast and I told my friends that, you know, I rodee on them.
• 11:42
  Ellen: You know, I sat on the windmill thing, and of course, you know, in third grade everybody believed me, but I, to this day, I can still see my teachers smirk uhhuh, you know, like, oh my gosh, I can't
• 11:52
  Christie: believe she's saying that.
• 11:53
  Christie: Yeah.
• 11:54
  Christie: I do remember telling the sixth grade gym class.
• 11:56
  Christie: I had an experience with aliens and I, oh no, why?
• 12:00
  Christie: I think I didn't know anybody at that school, and I think I just for some reason thought that would make me some friends, but it didn't.
• 12:06
  Christie: I promise it
• 12:07
  Cheryl: didn't.
• 12:08
  Cheryl: That's humility.
• 12:09
  Cheryl: just a
• 12:09
  second.
• 12:09
  Ellen: I have to hear the rest of, Did they challenge you
• 12:12
  Christie: on it or, I mean, I don't remember them really engaging much except for just laughing and yeah, I don't think anybody really gave it a lot of attention, which was probably disappointing to me.
• 12:23
  Christie: That's
• 12:23
  Cheryl: so funny.
• 12:23
  Cheryl: And similar to what I kind of said a while ago.
• 12:26
  Cheryl: I remember.
• 12:28
  Cheryl: When one of my kids.
• 12:30
  Cheryl: Was a young teen and we had a good relationship I just one time kind of said, I don't understand why my children would lie to me at this age.
• 12:39
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 12:39
  Cheryl: When I'm not lying to them, there's honesty in our relationship.
• 12:42
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 12:43
  Cheryl: And she just looked at me and said, mom could be.
• 12:47
  Cheryl: They don't want to disappoint you.
• 12:49
  Cheryl: Oh, yeah.
• 12:49
  Cheryl: yeah.
• 12:50
  Cheryl: Oh, then I identified.
• 12:52
  Cheryl: Because that's why I did it.
• 12:54
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 12:54
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 12:55
  Cheryl: But I just didn't carry that over and think with my kids.
• 12:58
  Cheryl: right.
• 12:58
  Christie: Yeah.
• 12:59
  Christie: Well, yeah.
• 12:59
  Christie: And then there's lying by commission and omission.
• 13:03
  Christie: That's true.
• 13:03
  Christie: I remember same thing, like I didn't wanna disappoint someone.
• 13:07
  Christie: I, my grandparents had paid for part of my school and I decided to drop out and I went on and on just.
• 13:15
  Christie: Every time I saw them holiday, you know, for a whole semester, I think, and just conveniently left out the part of my life that I wasn't going to class.
• 13:23
  Christie: And yeah.
• 13:24
  Christie: Um, but yeah, expectations and disappointment, those are things that are, you know, motivators.
• 13:30
  Christie: So
• 13:31
  Cheryl: all of this to say what we're trying to do is help this mom or any of our listeners that it's not necessarily that.
• 13:40
  Cheryl: Our children have pathological tendencies and they're gonna be deceivers all of their lives.
• 13:46
  Christie: Yeah
• 13:46
  Ellen: Yeah,
• 13:47
  Cheryl: There are a lot of reasons.
• 13:48
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 13:49
  Cheryl: Why we or they mm-hmm.
• 13:51
  Cheryl: Stretch the truth or outright lie.
• 13:53
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 13:54
  Cheryl: Okay.
• 13:55
  Ellen: Well I know we tried really hard to kind of explain what lying is, especially to younger children and I, the funny story, and that was my oldest son at the time was probably four and he kept thinking, I was saying lion.
• 14:10
  Ellen: Lying like the animal.
• 14:12
  Ellen: Yes.
• 14:12
  Ellen: Bra.
• 14:13
  Ellen: So I'm sure he was very confused because it is a concept that there has to be a measure of maturity.
• 14:20
  Ellen: Mm-hmm.
• 14:20
  Ellen: To kind of understand the difference between a child's fantasy and what they're saying.
• 14:24
  Ellen: Mm-hmm.
• 14:25
  Ellen: Or.
• 14:26
  Ellen: You know, most of us get the lying to keep outta trouble.
• 14:29
  Ellen: Yeah it's either to make ourselves look good or to keep outta trouble.
• 14:32
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 14:33
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 14:33
  Cheryl: You know?
• 14:34
  Cheryl: And so one of the things like with the use of the word lie, We decided a long time ago, we just wanted to be careful because of the label.
• 14:42
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 14:43
  Cheryl: And we didn't want to use the labels and children do lie.
• 14:46
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 14:47
  Cheryl: Yes.
• 14:47
  Cheryl: I mean, it just is a reality.
• 14:49
  Cheryl: And so we decided try not to use the label.
• 14:52
  Cheryl: So we would use the word like accurate.
• 14:55
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 14:55
  Cheryl: And say, you know, now you know, are you talking about it and saying, now is this mm-hmm.
• 15:01
  Cheryl: Accurate to what really happened?
• 15:04
  Cheryl: Trying to avoid just because it didn't want the label or is the truth?
• 15:08
  Cheryl: That's the truth.
• 15:09
  Cheryl: That's good.
• 15:09
  Ellen: You know, that's a simple one too.
• 15:10
  Ellen: Mm-hmm.
• 15:10
  Ellen: Without calling them a liar.
• 15:12
  Ellen: Mm-hmm.
• 15:12
  Ellen: Focus on them.
• 15:12
  Ellen: But it's okay to talk about lying.
• 15:15
  Ellen: Mm-hmm.
• 15:15
  Ellen: You know?
• 15:15
  Ellen: Mm-hmm.
• 15:16
  Ellen: Because that's an action word.
• 15:17
  Ellen: That's true.
• 15:17
  Ellen: You know, that doesn't mean just because you're lying doesn't make you a liar.
• 15:21
  Ellen: Right.
• 15:22
  Christie: You're just wanting to aim to keep from heaping shame on the child in the situation.
• 15:27
  Cheryl: That's really good.
• 15:28
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 15:29
  Cheryl: So this is the messy pot that it's in.
• 15:32
  Cheryl: Right.
• 15:32
  Cheryl: All kind of motivations, reasons, levels.
• 15:36
  Cheryl: So what would you suggest?
• 15:38
  Cheryl: What are some thoughts that we have that we could bring to the table for this parent that represents, that's the
• 15:44
  Ellen: Embarrassing thing, is when you get caught in a lie.
• 15:47
  Ellen: Oh, pretty much.
• 15:48
  Ellen: You know, I mean, the difference between an exaggeration and a, just a bold face lie.
• 15:53
  Ellen: And I think our kids feel the same.
• 15:55
  Ellen: You know, they're embarrassed, they got caught in a lie and mm-hmm.
• 15:58
  Ellen: You know, that's a component to why they're
• 16:01
  Cheryl: lying and then they're backing it up.
• 16:03
  Cheryl: Yes.
• 16:04
  Cheryl: With more,
• 16:05
  Christie: yes.
• 16:05
  Christie: Well, and it's twofold because there's, there's embarrassment and shame about what the actual lie was covering.
• 16:11
  Christie: Yes.
• 16:12
  Christie: And that got found out.
• 16:13
  Christie: Yes.
• 16:13
  Christie: And then the fact that they did lie makes it even worse.
• 16:16
  Ellen: And, and occasionally in high school, you have to work with your best friend to keep your lie going.
• 16:21
  Ellen: Right.
• 16:21
  Ellen: Never tell my mom, I was at your house.
• 16:23
  Ellen: Right.
• 16:25
  Cheryl: Helen, you are really an expert in this area, aren't you?
• 16:28
  Cheryl: I was,
• 16:28
  Ellen: yes.
• 16:29
  Ellen: My dad told me, he goes, you're such a good liar, you should be a lawyer.
• 16:33
  Cheryl: Laugh man.
• 16:34
  Cheryl: Um, I remember, and this was a conversation we didn't have when it was active, but particularly as they confessed and we talked about it and I would say, so what's easier?
• 16:45
  Cheryl: The first lie or the fifth lie?
• 16:47
  Cheryl: Hmm.
• 16:48
  Cheryl: And they would just look and go, wow.
• 16:51
  Cheryl: the fifth lie Mm-hmm.
• 16:53
  Cheryl: So we would talk about keeping their heart tender about what is true and being accurate mm-hmm.
• 17:00
  Cheryl: And wanting to keep that bridge open where they felt safe.
• 17:06
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 17:07
  Cheryl: Um, mm.
• 17:08
  Cheryl: you know, and maybe after sufficient discussion about it, and they're still sticking with their story, so one of the things we would say at that point was, you know, I have some questions and I'm a little confused about all that you've said.
• 17:26
  Cheryl: But you know, if you feel that you've been inaccurate in any of this, or you feel like you want to talk some more about what you've told me, feel free to come back anytime and we can talk about it,
• 17:40
  Christie: Yeah, that's
• 17:41
  really
• 17:41
  Christie: good.
• 17:42
  Ellen: And if there's circumstantial evidence that's pointing your direction, would you like to explain?
• 17:48
  Cheryl: Right.
• 17:48
  Cheryl: You know, but come back to me and let's sit and talk about it cuz I'm always open.
• 17:54
  Cheryl: Let's keep that communication open.
• 17:57
  Cheryl: And I don't think there were many times that anyone ever circled back.
• 18:01
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 18:01
  Cheryl: To say, yeah mom, I really was lying.
• 18:04
  Cheryl: Until years later.
• 18:05
  Cheryl: Right.
• 18:05
  Cheryl: But you know, I wanted them to feel safe enough mm-hmm.
• 18:08
  Cheryl: To come and say to me, mom, I lied to you.
• 18:10
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 18:11
  Cheryl: But we can
• 18:12
  Ellen: underestimate the power of pride.
• 18:14
  Ellen: Yes.
• 18:14
  Ellen: Because once you started a lie, You kind of need to stick by it.
• 18:18
  Ellen: Right?
• 18:18
  Ellen: You sure.
• 18:19
  Christie: You know?
• 18:19
  Christie: You know, that's a really gracious invitation.
• 18:21
  Christie: You've extended them and so you're, you're defending your character to them in that even if their pride won't let them take advantage of it, right.
• 18:30
  Christie: Then it's solidified in their mind who you are in their lives too.
• 18:34
  Christie: Wow.
• 18:35
  Cheryl: Well, I didn't think of that, but you're right that it is good.
• 18:38
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 18:38
  Cheryl: Even if we didn't get the wine thing taken care of.
• 18:41
  Christie: Yeah.
• 18:41
  Christie: Because the lie really is, I mean, not the main issue.
• 18:45
  Christie: That's true in the whole thing.
• 18:46
  Christie: It's, it's how we respond.
• 18:48
  Christie: Like really with everything, how we respond to our kids and then their motive behind the line.
• 18:54
  Christie: Yeah.
• 18:54
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 18:55
  Christie: And that's the thing that needs to be dealt with.
• 18:57
  Christie: And lies
• 18:57
  Ellen: always are snowballs.
• 18:58
  Ellen: Yeah, you start the lie and then you have to keep it up.
• 19:01
  Ellen: Mm-hmm.
• 19:01
  Ellen: And pretty soon now you created an avalanche with this one little tiny lie.
• 19:05
  Ellen: Mm-hmm.
• 19:05
  Ellen: Back here.
• 19:06
  Ellen: So you would've just gone, oh yeah, I did do that.
• 19:08
  Ellen: Right.
• 19:08
  Cheryl: And you're right, because I remember when my kids were old and they said, mom, you lied about that.
• 19:12
  Cheryl: I go, hold on a minute.
• 19:13
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 19:14
  Cheryl: I may have said something differently, but I can tell you what I meant to say.
• 19:21
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 19:21
  Cheryl: And what I believed.
• 19:22
  Cheryl: Because you're right, Ellen, if you lie, you have to remember what you said.
• 19:26
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 19:27
  Cheryl: And telling the truth, I would try to role model for them.
• 19:30
  Cheryl: When you tell the truth, you can say, well, this is what I remember.
• 19:33
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 19:33
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 19:33
  Cheryl: This is what I thought I said.
• 19:35
  Cheryl: And just an innocence to it because I don't have to back it up.
• 19:39
  Cheryl: I don't have to prove my guilt or innocence.
• 19:41
  Cheryl: We have to keep
• 19:42
  Ellen: lying to keep the lie afloat
• 19:46
  Christie: and we should extend that same grace to them.
• 19:49
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 19:50
  Christie: At times when we can, you know, if we really look at the situation and can see, yeah, the intention was not malicious.
• 19:57
  Christie: And I
• 19:57
  Ellen: have to ask myself sometimes as a parent, do they feel like I'm being so harsh that they need to lie to me?
• 20:02
  Ellen: That's true.
• 20:02
  Ellen: No, that's not always.
• 20:04
  Ellen: It's the case because kids do just lie.
• 20:06
  Ellen: But sometimes I have to say, well, you know, did they feel like they were gonna get in so much trouble that it was just better to lie?
• 20:12
  Cheryl: Right.
• 20:12
  Cheryl: Most of the kids I knew that lied a lot.
• 20:15
  Cheryl: It was because they knew that the act was gonna fall, right?
• 20:19
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 20:19
  Cheryl: So they had to back it up and lie, and I mean, it's a bad circle.
• 20:22
  Cheryl: You just get into the habit, you know?
• 20:25
  Cheryl: But then you, what's easier, the first or the fifth lie,
• 20:27
  Ellen: you perfect it.
• 20:28
  Ellen: That's the problem.
• 20:29
  Ellen: if you don't.
• 20:30
  Ellen: Have a safe place and your kid doesn't feel like they can come to you, then they perfect their lying.
• 20:36
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 20:36
  Christie: Which might be a good check on us as parents Yeah.
• 20:39
  Christie: To say what environment are they living in?
• 20:42
  Christie: Yeah.
• 20:42
  Christie: You know, that they need to cover up or sneak around.
• 20:45
  Christie: Yeah.
• 20:45
  Christie: and it may be that they do feel.
• 20:48
  Christie: A lot of weight of your expectation.
• 20:50
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 20:50
  Christie: True.
• 20:50
  Christie: That they're trying to hide and you know, I think we've said it before, but there, there needs to be an atmosphere of confession without condemnation or shame.
• 20:58
  Christie: That's so good.
• 20:59
  Christie: And I know that I was not always good at this, but in hindsight I realize that was pro was keeping my kids from intimacy in me.
• 21:07
  Christie: A lot of what with too with me a lot of ways.
• 21:09
  Christie: Yeah.
• 21:09
  Cheryl: Same here.
• 21:10
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 21:10
  Cheryl: Because not even as much, always the consequences.
• 21:13
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 21:14
  Cheryl: Because mm-hmm.
• 21:15
  Cheryl: We're not saying no consequences, but it's the condemnation.
• 21:19
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 21:19
  Cheryl: You know?
• 21:19
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 21:20
  Cheryl: And that's the worst, right.
• 21:23
  Cheryl: Which, if you have relationship with somebody, the condemnation is the
• 21:26
  Christie: worst part.
• 21:26
  Christie: Yeah.
• 21:27
  Christie: And we all sat here just now and shared our own experiences.
• 21:29
  Christie: Yeah.
• 21:30
  Christie: In struggling with the same thing.
• 21:31
  Christie: And that's what can be helpful to our kids.
• 21:34
  Christie: If we can extend that same sympathy and remembering our shortcomings in the same area validates, Hey, this life is hard.
• 21:42
  Christie: Yeah, and I see your temptation there, and let's talk about better ways to handle it next time.
• 21:46
  Christie: My kids enjoyed
• 21:47
  Ellen: my childhood lies
• 21:49
  Cheryl: because they were
• 21:50
  Ellen: so over the top.
• 21:52
  Ellen: They
• 21:53
  Cheryl: go, mom, you really said that.
• 21:54
  Cheryl: I called and one of the things that keeps me from doing it correctly rather than my mistakes is not taking it personally.
• 22:01
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 22:01
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 22:02
  Cheryl: Okay.
• 22:03
  Cheryl: And then also this conversation, because we've said it before, there are places where you deal with something and then you discuss it later on.
• 22:11
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 22:11
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 22:12
  Cheryl: And so one of the conversations to have, I like it in there, is lying, deception, breaks trust.
• 22:21
  Cheryl: Right.
• 22:22
  Cheryl: And that we have to rebuild trust.
• 22:24
  Cheryl: Now I can choose to begin to trust you, but it's the rebuilding of the trust.
• 22:30
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 22:30
  Cheryl: It's both ends of the bridge.
• 22:33
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 22:33
  Cheryl: Especially for
• 22:34
  Ellen: 10 year olds on up.
• 22:36
  Cheryl: Yes.
• 22:36
  Cheryl: Definitely not
• 22:37
  Ellen: little.
• 22:38
  Ellen: Yeah.
• 22:38
  Ellen: Teaching your children that you know.
• 22:40
  Ellen: All relationships are based on trust.
• 22:43
  Ellen: Very good.
• 22:43
  Ellen: And if that's missing, it's very hard to have a healthy relationship with one another.
• 22:49
  Ellen: Mm-hmm.
• 22:49
  Ellen: Mm-hmm.
• 22:49
  Ellen: Because if you can't trust each other's word.
• 22:52
  Ellen: Right.
• 22:52
  Ellen: Then what else is there?
• 22:54
  Ellen: Well,
• 22:54
  Christie: I've found too For that to be better taught sometimes when they're on the receiving end.
• 23:00
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 23:00
  Christie: Rather than when they're the giver, it's really good.
• 23:02
  Christie: Yeah.
• 23:02
  Christie: You know, if they've had an exchange with someone where they lost trust.
• 23:06
  Christie: Yes.
• 23:07
  Christie: If I can gently mm-hmm.
• 23:08
  Christie: Speak into that as a little bit of a preliminary thing, you know, before they're the offender.
• 23:14
  Christie: Yeah.
• 23:15
  Christie: It's a lot easier to, um, get them to, uh, see their side of it, you know, to see both sides
• 23:23
  Ellen: because every kid gets offended when their friend lies to'em, right?
• 23:26
  Ellen: Mm-hmm.
• 23:27
  Ellen: Why did she lie to me?
• 23:28
  Ellen: Mm-hmm.
• 23:28
  Ellen: She told me this and I believed
• 23:30
  Cheryl: her.
• 23:30
  Cheryl: Or being deceived by a politician or Right.
• 23:34
  Cheryl: Anyone in trust or a teacher.
• 23:36
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 23:36
  Cheryl: Or whatever it is.
• 23:37
  Cheryl: I like what you're saying, Christie, that we have these ongoing conversations about personal integrity and how we want to walk in integrity and what breaks trust and what builds trust and.
• 23:50
  Cheryl: And how we want to have that in relationship, which, and I
• 23:52
  Christie: wanna be careful not to turn everything into a teaching lesson.
• 23:55
  Christie: Right.
• 23:56
  Christie: My kids would, if we had a, you know, Complicated situation before we were done.
• 24:01
  Christie: I would say, can, can I pray with you?
• 24:02
  Christie: And they would say, well, are you gonna pray lecture?
• 24:07
  Christie: She saying, and Laura, please help her to not ever do this.
• 24:10
  Christie: You know?
• 24:10
  Christie: Yeah.
• 24:11
  Christie: Yeah.
• 24:11
  Christie: So we can ever teach sometimes.
• 24:13
  Ellen: And I think teaching your children from the very beginning that so many things lie.
• 24:18
  Ellen: Like one of the first things I taught my children was.
• 24:21
  Ellen: TV especially commercials lie to you.
• 24:24
  Ellen: Mm-hmm.
• 24:24
  Ellen: Yeah.
• 24:24
  Ellen: That's their job cuz they want to convince you that this is so good.
• 24:28
  Ellen: And so you start planting that seed that you need to look around life with.
• 24:33
  Ellen: Not a negative attitude, but a critical attitude because it didn't take them very long to realize that.
• 24:40
  Ellen: Um, I remember the first time my son bought a pair of really expensive tennis shoes.
• 24:44
  Ellen: Yeah.
• 24:45
  Ellen: And he was so disappointed because he didn't run as fast as he thought the shoes would make them cuz the commercial said he would go fast.
• 24:52
  Ellen: Yeah.
• 24:53
  Ellen: But learning those lessons and just reiterating to your kids, well there's so many things around you that you have to watch for because television lies the commercial lie cuz they all want you to do something.
• 25:04
  Ellen: Mm-hmm.
• 25:05
  Ellen: Or buy something.
• 25:06
  Cheryl: I like this that we're talking about is like you say, not lecture, not isolating the lies and the lying, but it's in the context mm-hmm.
• 25:15
  Cheryl: Of our ongoing conversation.
• 25:17
  Ellen: Right.
• 25:18
  Cheryl: And another thing is, think about How accurately am I reflecting a lifestyle of truth?
• 25:24
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 25:24
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 25:25
  Cheryl: Because I can remember early on sometimes like maybe I bought something and, well, I think I wanna take it back, but I kind of used it and mm-hmm.
• 25:37
  Cheryl: But I really didn't use it that much.
• 25:39
  Cheryl: And I remember talking to Bill about it and he said, sweetheart, I think you're having to explain it too much for to be That's good.
• 25:46
  Cheryl: Truthful.
• 25:46
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 25:46
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 25:46
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 25:47
  Cheryl: And I'm like, you are right?
• 25:48
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 25:49
  Cheryl: And then when we had children, I wanted to be very aware that what I said when I like had to break an appointment, or particularly if it cost you money, right?
• 25:59
  Cheryl: To not say I'm sick, I can't come to the dentist today, right?
• 26:03
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 26:04
  Cheryl: But I double scheduled and so I'm gonna have to pay for it even though I can't come that.
• 26:09
  Cheryl: My children hearing me be truthful and accurate, right, is way more important than any other kind of penalty I would pay.
• 26:17
  Cheryl: That's good.
• 26:18
  Cheryl: You know, so I had to be self-aware.
• 26:20
  Christie: Right.
• 26:20
  Christie: Well, yeah.
• 26:21
  Christie: Or I remember one time like someone is asking me to attend something and I really did not want to go and all my kids are in earshot.
• 26:28
  Christie: And I said, I'm sorry, but we have family plans this weekend.
• 26:32
  Christie: I can't be there.
• 26:33
  Christie: And we get in the van and the kids are like, mom, what are we doing this weekend?
• 26:36
  Christie: I'm like, what?
• 26:36
  Cheryl: What are you talking about?
• 26:38
  Cheryl: You said, we have family nailed mom.
• 26:40
  Cheryl: I was like,
• 26:40
  Christie: well, now I've lied to this person and I have to lie to my kids and make up something fun that we're gonna do as a family.
• 26:46
  Christie: That
• 26:47
  Cheryl: cost you a little bit.
• 26:48
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 26:48
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 26:49
  Cheryl: And maybe that's a picture we go back to it.
• 26:51
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 26:52
  Cheryl: Lying deception is a snowball that just Yeah.
• 26:55
  Cheryl: Grows and grows unless you stop it.
• 26:56
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 26:56
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 26:57
  Cheryl: Oh, very good.
• 26:58
  Cheryl: Is there anything else you wanna bring into this?
• 27:00
  Cheryl: Because it looked like it was kind of a straightforward question.
• 27:04
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 27:05
  Cheryl: But this is a.
• 27:06
  Cheryl: Real lifestyle.
• 27:08
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 27:08
  Cheryl: Relational question, not the fact that someone lies.
• 27:12
  Cheryl: Right.
• 27:13
  Cheryl: Anything else?
• 27:13
  Christie: Well, I think I would just kind of go back to something that's been comforting to me is I.
• 27:19
  Christie: You know, I think this, we've said this with a lot of different issues, but if you don't get it right once you'll get another chance.
• 27:25
  Christie: Yeah.
• 27:25
  Christie: You know, that's good.
• 27:26
  Christie: Yeah.
• 27:26
  Christie: And I know sometimes when I really don't know how to prove that the child's not telling me the truth.
• 27:32
  Christie: Yeah.
• 27:33
  Christie: I kind of have to leave it to natural consequences and just hope they get caught or hope they, you know, something comes of it or, um, you know, that they mess up But, um, just comfort that.
• 27:45
  Christie: It's okay if you don't catch'em in every little thing, because that's not the issue anyway.
• 27:49
  Christie: It's, it's the heart behind the lie that you're wanting to address.
• 27:52
  Cheryl: And I wanna address that.
• 27:53
  Cheryl: Catching them in everything, right?
• 27:54
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 27:55
  Cheryl: We don't want a lifestyle catch.
• 27:56
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 27:56
  Cheryl: We don't wanna
• 27:56
  Ellen: stand around like a panther on a rock waiting for the kids to, you know, to pounce on
• 28:01
  Christie: everything.
• 28:02
  Christie: The heart issue that caused the lie to begin with.
• 28:05
  Christie: And
• 28:05
  Cheryl: I do want to bring in here at the end.
• 28:07
  Cheryl: That there's a very spiritual dimension.
• 28:09
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 28:10
  Cheryl: About truth and lies.
• 28:12
  Christie: Absolutely.
• 28:13
  Cheryl: And so in our family, that was a part of what our conversations were of the spiritual aspect.
• 28:19
  Cheryl: And then, you know, you're talking about Not lecture prayering to really pray for my children.
• 28:23
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 28:24
  Cheryl: In the areas where they struggled.
• 28:25
  Cheryl: Right.
• 28:26
  Cheryl: Not just try to behave or modify, but really what we're talking about.
• 28:32
  Cheryl: All the tools we have is to work on their hearts.
• 28:35
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 28:35
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 28:35
  Cheryl: And that's what we wanna do while we're beginning.
• 28:37
  Cheryl: Our hearts worked on as well.
• 28:39
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 28:39
  Ellen: That's really good.
• 28:40
  Cheryl: Okay.
• 28:40
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 28:41
  Cheryl: Thanks so much.
• 28:42
  Cheryl: Parents, remember, hang in there.
• 28:45
  Cheryl: Keep loving, keep persevering because it's worth it.
• 28:55
  Cheryl: There are just so many aspects about lying and the directions we could have gone in on our conversation.
• 29:03
  Cheryl: I mean, there's a lot of strong feeling and lack of agreement in the world and in culture right now about what truth even is, and.
• 29:13
  Cheryl: What constitutes a lie?
• 29:15
  Cheryl: So there are many ramifications to this subject in our parenting.
• 29:20
  Cheryl: You know, that's why we always say it all goes back to your core values because that will absolutely flavor and influence how you deal.
• 29:32
  Cheryl: Oh, even with a four year old who lies about signing his sister's name on the wallpaper, how can we work on their hearts and not just tweak their behavior even though there are consequences?
• 29:45
  Cheryl: We'd love to hear your take on it.
• 29:47
  Cheryl: DM us, go to our website or text contact@theparentingpodcast.com if you're enjoying.
• 29:56
  Cheryl: Tpp, how about sharing about us with your friends and hey.
• 30:01
  Cheryl: You can tell the next time there's gonna be another very practical subject that we were asked about nagging.
• 30:09
  Cheryl: Looking forward to being with you again on the Parenting Podcast.