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Fear Is Running Your Life and You Won't Call It an Idol · Intentional Guy

• Paul Granger: plenty of disqualifications and we're told so by the religious leaders of the time. Many of them disqualified themselves. Even the apostle Paul says, you know, I don't understand what I do because what I hate to do, I keep doing it. What I know I'm supposed to do, I don't. What hope is there for me? I'm a wretch. Thanks, Peter Jesus. And so what I would say is that no matter how behind you feel in the race or how ill-equipped or disqualified you feel to be a Christ follower, All you have to do is today, just take a step towards him. And if that step is simply a toe nudge, that's still movement forward. We get locked into this idea of it has to be these grand leaps. Those can come. Those can be beautiful moments, but man, don't diminish the beauty of that simple toe nudge forward. Because what did Jesus say? If you have faith the size of a mustard seed, that Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Paul Granger: was the standard he set. Not, need to see your grand displays of faith, Peter. He said, look, Michael Chestnut: Right. Paul Granger: just, give me mustard seed faith. So that's what I would say is today. If you are wanting to be a Christ follower, then you have already done the most important part. Made that decision that you want to do it. And now just orient your feet into the best of your ability, scoot one forward and then keep on moving. And when you inevitably trip up, get up, dust yourself off and keep following because Jesus loves you so much, He's not going to run ahead down the road. He's going to stay on pace with where you need Him to be. Michael Chestnut: Hey, welcome back to the Intentional Guy podcast. I'm Michael Chestnut, your host. And today my guest is Paul Granger. And Paul has this, he's the host of Where Did You See God podcast. And you also work with YWAM in Richmond. And Paul was on our show four years ago. It's been a while. That's been a long time, Paul. Paul Granger: Been a while. Michael Chestnut: And I told Paul, I was like, when I you came on earlier, I was like, man, he looks the same age. I do not Paul Granger: What's my secret? Michael Chestnut: I need to know. I just turned 60. So that's Paul Granger: You Michael Chestnut: a the I hope I have a lot more birthdays, but that's the last party I want to have. It's the candles are getting too big, you know. So Paul Granger: I hear you. Michael Chestnut: but, anyways, well, you know, I want to take just a minute, Paul, if you don't mind, and I want to share this with my audience. about our conversation four years ago when we had it and just there I there's probably some things you don't of course probably remember you've been on hundreds of these. so what happened was four years ago this show had about five people listening to it. I mean we had five. And in fact you were episode 10 and today is actually episode 137. A lot's gone on and happened during that time. At that time, my book had just been released, maybe two weeks. And I wrote that because God would not let me put it down. Everybody knew was reading it. And my name was on all of it. I mean, all over. And I had not heard anything back from anyone. Everyone was silent. I knew people had had a chance to read it, right? And you know, what people have to understand why that that part's important. Why do I care if they read it or not? is because the book is called exposed. And it's exactly what it sounds like. my biggest fear was that the enemy would expose me. And God said, Here, I'm we're going to do that. And that's where the book came from. And it talks about my battle with Pornography and lust and a lot of the secrets that were keeping me bound, I wrote in that book and released it. And I was like, God, I don't know why you're having me do this. And everything I wrote Paul Granger: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: the day that I hit sin, I had a a major panic attack my own family didn't know a lot of the stuff that was in it. a lot of my closest friends didn't even know because I didn't even know how. how to verbalize that to them, right? How to say that. So, when you came on the show, and I was actually sitting here waiting on whether or not I was still going to be accepted by those people in my life, or Paul Granger: Mm. Michael Chestnut: if a major rejection was about to hit me. And Paul Granger: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: I was scared. And I remember I told you on that podcast. I at that point I had just spent 15 years walking out of the worst season of my life. And when me and you talked, I was right in the middle of my restoration. And Paul, I remember you said two things that have carried with me since. you said public transparency. And what I heard you say was the man still in the middle does not need to hear from someone who has it all together, who has at the top of the mountain. He needs to hear from somebody still in the middle too. And that really that hit me. And I only had five people listening, but what's amazing is God was, definitely speaking that day. But what I wanted to let you know, and my audience know that, four years later. Paul, I talk about all of it without the shame and without Paul Granger: Hmm. Michael Chestnut: the fear. And today I get to walk men through their darkest season of life. And I remember a lot of times when you're you and I talked saying that, you don't have to have it all put together for God to use you. And so Paul Granger: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: I just wanted to tell you today, thank you for that, you know, because Paul Granger: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: you have no clue what that conversation would transpire, right? thank you for doing that. Paul Granger: Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that and I appreciate the encouragement. It's timely. So thank you. Michael Chestnut: Timely, huh? Well, God has a way of always bringing stuff around at the right time, right? but anyways, let's let's get back to you on that. In the four years with your journey, you know, I Paul Granger: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: I'm sure you've had a lot of moments like that. In fact, that's to me, that is one of those where do you see God moments at today? That's for Paul Granger: Mm-hmm, yeah. Michael Chestnut: me is looking at you, right? and we talked about that the last time you're on the show about your podcast. I was listening to that. And I listen to a lot of people. I follow you around a little bit. and I know that a lot of times people ask you the question, you know, where where do have you seen God at and everything? My question though today to you kind of was what does it do for you Paul Granger: You Michael Chestnut: when you hear those God moments? Because I mean, I know it it means something to you, or you wouldn't have, you know, created a platform and named it exactly that. So there had to be something God was doing with you that you probably didn't even know back then. And now, Paul Granger: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: through all those stories you've heard. It has to do something. Paul Granger: Yeah. When I think the biggest thing that it does, Michael, is forces me to keep asking that question because our problem is, is we like to project out why God's inviting us to something and how it's going to work out. So you touched on one important early element of it, being open to the nature in which God wants it to work. You know, the story's not finished. You're still in the middle. And, you know, for me, if me going on podcasts was just about getting more reach, then I might bypass one that has five listeners, right? But that's not what was driving me is it was authentic connection. However, God led whatever happens from there. But then we have this other problem. Maybe we are happy to get into it on that level, but we still kind of project out how long we're going to have to remain in the middle. You know, we hope Okay, maybe I'm in the middle and I'm meeting people there, but then I'm going to be okay. I'm going to get to a better place or there's going to be fruit from my efforts or there's going to be fill in the blank. And when one year passes and two years pass and three and four, and it's not panning out the way you project it out, you can start to feel certain things. And so it's funny. I, I come to the mic today, literally sick and tired. My kids had some colds last week, so I feel the sickness. it's, it's, I feel like there's a head cold starting and tired. I, ironically, you talked about how you had just released the book in our last conversation. I just had a book release party last night for my book, something in the fraud. And I was like, I'm going to sleep well. Cause it was so exhausting, but great. And I maybe got two hours of sleep. I woke up around two Michael Chestnut: Mm. Paul Granger: or so and my body was like, yeah, you're done. And I'm like, no, I'm not. My body's like. yeah, you just watch. Michael Chestnut: Yep. Paul Granger: so I'm, I'm literally sick and tired, but I also feel sick and tired spiritually and emotionally. And, and so much of it comes from many frustrations over the last Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Paul Granger: couple of years in particular, hardships that I thought God would have fixed by now fruit that would be visible in my now one of the most practical is I've been full-time volunteer ministry since 2018. I haven't had a traditional paycheck. And you and I probably talked about that a little bit Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Paul Granger: in our last conversation. I'm still living that lifestyle with a wife and kids. But the past year and a half, a lot of people have been feeling the financial pinch, but it's been the, our finances have been in the worst place they've been in that whole time. compared to Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Paul Granger: parts where it's like God was providing in extravagant ways and unexpected ways and ways I couldn't describe. And I'm like, God, what are you doing? Because I feel like we had a good arrangement. So Michael Chestnut: Right. Paul Granger: why have you turned off the water faucet? And moments where I thought this is going to be when God suddenly brings the breakthrough and it doesn't happen. I was sitting on the porch of my spiritual father of almost 20 years this morning. feeling sick and tired and was telling him that I've been thinking over the last few days of, Joseph and how Joseph was trying to see God with his life. And so much so that God was giving him these prophetic dreams and he didn't know what to do with them, but you know, he shared them and it got him in trouble and he got thrown into a pit. And instead of being freed from the pit, he was sold into slavery. And instead of being freed from slavery, he was put into prison. And in the moment where he thought he was gonna finally be freed from prison, when God brought him on the same day, the cup bearer and the baker, and brought Michael Chestnut: Mm. Paul Granger: him an understanding of what their dreams meant as they're leaving, he says, don't forget me when you get back to Pharaoh. And then he's probably sitting there that first day, like with excitement. Like, finally, God's gonna free me from this prison. Finally, after all these years Michael Chestnut: Mm. Paul Granger: of hardship, and I've been trying to be faithful, He's finally gonna free me. And then the next day comes, okay, maybe there's red tape, you know, that they have to go through. A week passes. All right, well, maybe, maybe they just haven't gotten before Pharaoh yet, and a month passes, and then years pass. I wonder what Joseph felt in that moment when he thought the breakthrough was right there, when he thought freedom from the prison was right there, when he thought he would finally be able to rest. And in Sunday school, we skip over all that, right? We go from here's the things he went through, quick hit, but then he was second in command and he saved all of the nations. And we hold out for this huge, huge moment. And so you asked this question of, has it done for me to hear all these God stories? so that first answer is it's forced me to have to come back to that question often because No two stories have been the same. No Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Paul Granger: two journeys have been the same. And most of the journeys, I dare say all of them have been unfinished. Maybe there is this like really big moment, but their journey still continues. Right? The fact Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Paul Granger: that they're talking to me means they're still alive. They are not Michael Chestnut: Right. Paul Granger: yet in eternity. I talked with someone named Karis Meyer recently, and she had been on my podcast a number of years ago and reached out. and asked if she could give an update. And we had this great conversation, but she went through so many chronic health issues that we talked about in our first conversation. But then we get into the second conversation and she's like, you know, I thought I was entering this season of rest. And then suddenly things change with my husband's employment. And then my kids are hit with health issue after health issue after health issue. And it's one thing for me to contend with God on my health issues, but When it's my kids, that hits differently. And we had this deep conversation processing, what does it mean to keep seeking God when suddenly new issues are at the table? But then I hear the faith that people carry. And, you know, I think this is one of the most challenging pieces to all of this is, you know, what does it do to hear all these stories? It forces me to remember. what a God story is meant to be. It's not meant to be what we usually treat it as, the packaged testimony with the start, middle, and end that then make you feel like everything's gonna be okay, Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Paul Granger: but rather an honest assessment of who God was, is, and is going to be, even if much of that is murky. There is this weekend, The sermon was focused on Jesus calming the waters. And when I woke up in the middle of the night last night and I was trying to do anything to get back to sleep, including like have some conversations with God, some raw conversations, I felt like he was leading me to go to Oswald chambers, which I love Oswald and Oswald my utmost for his highest for anyone who doesn't know who I'm talking about. Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Paul Granger: Check it out. it's a collection of. his reflections that he didn't intend to become a year-long devotional, but a decade after he had passed away from appendicitis of all things, his wife Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Paul Granger: who had kind of transcribed his sermons and his teachings compiled it. But lo and behold, it's the same topic. It kicks in with Matthew 8.26. You of little faith, why are you so afraid? And then Oswald says, When we are afraid, it's easy to find ourselves praying the elementary panic prayers of those who don't know God. But Jesus says we should never be afraid. Our Lord has a right to expect that those who name His name will rest in perfect confidence in Him. God expects His children to have such faith that they are reliable ones in any crisis. Yet many of us tend to trust God only up to a point. We're like the disciples who were in the boat with Jesus when the storm arose. We get to our wit's end, convinced that God is asleep and that we're going to drown. When we think like this, we show God that we don't have the slightest bit of confidence in Him, nor in His governing of the world. And it goes on, but that part right there hit me because I had to be honest with God. Yeah, I often don't have confidence in you. Even Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Paul Granger: as I am doing full-time volunteer ministry for years and years and years, not getting a paycheck, even as I'm stepping into ways of serving others. that are costly, even as like my life is defined publicly around ministry, even as I genuinely want to be confident in God, to be all in for Him, the fact that I still have moments of fear, make it clear that I don't. In my best Michael Chestnut: Mm. Paul Granger: efforts, I still have moments where I don't actually believe God has my back or I don't actually believe. that God exists, like these thoughts, these doubts. I think of the man who came to Jesus and he was desperate for his son who was demon possessed to be healed. And first he went to the disciples and the disciples couldn't do anything and arguments erupt. Jesus asked what's going on. The man tells him, and then Jesus says, do you believe that I can heal your son? And he says, I believe, help me in my unbelief. I believe there's this place where We can I'll put it this way. We can simultaneously believe and not believe. We can want to claim what's before us, but still have a lot of questions. But the difference was for this man, his positioning, that even in his unbelief, he was still choosing to stand before Jesus, who he still didn't know if this man was who he said he was. And that's the one thing I can say is in all these moments, in my moments of fear and doubt and unbelief by the grace of God, by the power of the Holy Spirit, not me, I've still been able to remain positioned, still standing, not Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Paul Granger: throwing in the towel, not doing like the disciples in John 666 where there are dozens, hundreds following Jesus. But when he started talking crazy and was about to walk into sure persecution and death, it says many turned away and never followed him again. Like by the grace of God, I didn't give up on God. even as my mind was like, I don't know, am I crazy? Is this, where's this all going? Did I get something wrong? Did I mess up? And so what is hearing all these God stories done for me? It's kept me grounded. It's kept me humble. It's kept me asking hard questions. It's kept me finding hope when I lost it. It's kept me sometimes being honest about. Hopes I'm holding onto that weren't from God and everything in between because I'm hearing the real stories of real people who are also really contending with God. And when we come together in this way, whether it's just listening, something can happen to get us beyond ourselves and our limited understanding to something greater than us. But that's a journey that keeps on going even when we feel like we've hit the season of rest. Michael Chestnut: Right. Well, you know, that's one of the things I like about you, Paul, is your authenticity and you being w willing to be open and honest. And that's what I noticed four years ago when I met with you, because you gave me advice about the podcast and you said just people are looking for authenticity. Just be authentic. Paul Granger: Yeah. Yeah. Michael Chestnut: Have a conversation. And that's what I I've learned in my my journey Of restoration too has been I don't have to protect God from my for my story. Like nothing in my story is going to damage who God is. Right. Paul Granger: Yeah. Yeah. Michael Chestnut: And in fact, it it does the opposite, shows the power. And I I totally relate to you because that when I met you, it was I was gone fifteen years of restoration. Fi it was fifteen years of very hard. And even in there, there's some things I can't say because they're still raw and it it requ it's other relationships, but there was a relationship that was broken and 20 years later now, you know, God restored that. But there was all these times in between there that I was just like, God, what are you doing? You know, do you am I here? Paul Granger: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: And I and even what you just say, God, are you real? And I know who I wanna be in Christ. I I know the church stuff. I was born I was a pastor's kid. I I know all the church langu language and it's kind of what got me in trouble. so now I wanna walk it and I want I wanna be real. And sometimes that being real is with a brother saying, Hey, this is where I'm at. And whether right or wrong, this is this is where I'm at. And I found out that in those moments In those conversations, God has sh God has shown up and was sitting right in there we've been living off one income and it's just it's been a crazy thing. And there's been times that me and my wife are like, God, where are you? But Paul Granger: Yeah. Yeah. Michael Chestnut: God's paid all our bills. We Paul Granger: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: we our bills are paid. I don't know how they're paid. You know, and I don't get w Paul Granger: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Michael Chestnut: into that prosperity faith I I see my prosperity places I can't see where God's paid bills and things, maybe Paul Granger: Right, right. Michael Chestnut: not. showing me the cash up front but through other ways. So he's been faithful to me Paul Granger: Yeah. Yeah. think of, the verses that talk about treasures in heaven or the verses that talk about those who are like giving lofty prayers or showing off their generosity. And, and Jesus says, well, you've got your reward like here on earth. that's, that's it. Like verses, do you want to just settle for the here and now blessings or do you want eternal blessings? And And you said something I really resonated with because I was thinking it, literally thinking it on my way to my spiritual father's porch. And you said, sometimes we have this inclination like to defend God. Like we want things to happen so that it shows that God actually is real. And sometimes like when we say that, are saying it in a way that it's for God's glory. But if we're honest, it's really because we We want it for our own fears and doubts. But man, I can't tell you how often I have gotten upset with God, because I'm like, God, that was a softball moment. Like if you had just done this small thing that I know you could do, like you would have been, everyone would have known that it was you, or put another way. There are a lot of things in my life that I really would like God to work out. And there are ways that it could work out on a human level that nobody would think was God. And sure that things would be worked out, but like, I'm like, no, no, no, no. But God, I don't want you to work it out in the simple ways. I want you to work it out in the miraculous ways so people know that it's you. And what I had to be honest about Michael is I began to find that what was actually happening in my heart was that it wasn't actually for God because what God kept telling me is I don't, I don't need to defend myself. I don't need to prove myself. So you're not actually wanting that for me. Cause I didn't, I'm not asking for that. You're, you're expecting that for you. And man, like that idea of continuing on in life and God never making himself known through what I'm going through for others. Like that kind of scared me because then that leaves me of possibly still looking like a fool to others. It's possibly Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Paul Granger: still looking like a failure to others. And, and I realized, I don't want that. Like I, I want both God to be honored and glorified, but also I want things to be more comfortable or sustainable or for like, honestly, like for me, I just want to break. I've just wanted to break for years. There's things that have been needed from me for anywhere from like a year to two years to 20 years in certain spheres. And I just want to break. I just, I just want, and I realized, wow, what if God doesn't give me that? And I go the rest of my human life. not feeling the rest that I feel like I need. And what if two things are actually happening? One, there is an eternal rest that will make me forget all about the here and now stuff that's like a blip on the radar. But two, what if God is affording me rest? And I've got to pull it out because I didn't, Oswald's already addressed this. What if God's already affording me a rest and I'm the one rejecting it? So he Michael Chestnut: Mm. Paul Granger: goes on to say, so Jesus, It says, got up and rebuke the winds and the waves and it was completely calm. So peace be still. What a pain and remorse must have shot through the disciples when they realized that instead of relying on their Lord, they'd failed him. And what a pain will go through us when we realized that we could have produced joy in the heart of Jesus by remaining absolutely confident in him, no matter what lay ahead. There are times in life without storms and crises, times when doing our human best is enough. But when a crisis comes, we reveal instantly on whom we rely. If we've been learning to worship God and trust in him, the crisis will reveal that we can go to the breaking point without breaking our confidence in him. God's will is that we reach a place of perfect rest, a place of oneness with him. When we are one with God, we will be not only blameless in his sight, but a deep joy to him. And so God is opening this opportunity for me in this storm to rest in him. And instead, what I'm saying is I can only rest if the storm stops. And in this story, Jesus does calm the storm. But prior to that, he was napping in the midst of the storm, because he knew he was safe. He knew his father wouldn't let him die in a storm. And the disciples demanded the storm stop. That's the only way they could find peace and rest. But if they had actually just looked at Jesus and knew who he was, they could have said, huh, Jesus is napping and he is someone that we're following. So I don't know. I guess we could go try to take a nap too. Like would be absolutely foolish without a doubt. But I guarantee you if they had gone into the stern and napped and like laid down nap of Jesus, I think they could have had a great sleep and woke up and the storm be done and they're at the shore. and experience something miraculously restful. And so how Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Paul Granger: often in my life am I forgoing the rest that God's offering because I want the rest that I want. And how often am I saying this is for God when it's actually for me? How often am I acting like Peter who genuinely, I think, loved Jesus and wanted to follow him, but up to a point. And when he had the opportunity where he could have been beaten alongside Jesus, He denied him because when he was at the moment, he found that he still was afraid of what people would think of him or still was afraid of what harm could come to him. And that fear was stronger than his love for Jesus. And there was grace in that. Jesus restored him, gave him a chance to demonstrate that love. But I've had to come to be humbly honest with myself to say my fears. often are stronger than my love for Jesus, even as I still proclaim my Michael Chestnut: Hmm. Well yeah, I I I think the hardest part in that is you know, we can't remove the human side of us. And that's what gets in the way every time is that Paul Granger: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: that human side and I mean we're created to to wanna know the answers to everything and you know we also know how to fix it. Like you said, God, here it is. Just here's your softball moment. I I totally resonate with that. But I think one of the biggest things I've learned has been coming out of the out of the valleys and up is when I'm able to see and recognize, and I think that's the hardest part is for me to recognize, okay, what God was doing and why we why did I go through that? And you know, the old Mike wants to say, I was brought up, well, you must God must be punishing you for that, right? And my wife has asked that question, are we doing something wrong? Is there something Paul Granger: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: and I I was like, honey, I don't want you to believe that way. No, we we're doing everything that we're supposed to. God's not mad at us, and God hasn't left us. And Paul Granger: Yeah. Yeah. Michael Chestnut: And then I have to be careful too, because I don't want her to think, my faith is stronger than your faith, because it's not. Because sometimes in the quiet, I'm like, God, did you hear? I mean, she's not wrong. Where are you? You know, and that's Paul Granger: Yeah, yeah. Michael Chestnut: that human side of us that tends to do that. What would you say? I and listen, I I told you earlier before we got on here, I work with celebrate recovery. And What a great first what a great ministry and to be a part of that and to see God take all my journey and be using it all the time in that that group has been tremendous for me. It's such a great privilege. But what is some of the things that you might say to those guys cause look at you, you've you're a seasoned man of God. So you take someone who's just a brand new Christian walking out of maybe an addiction or the worst time of their life, imagine where their faith is at. And and how Paul Granger: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: do you guide that? Paul Granger: Well, I think the first thing that comes to my mind, as you said, seasoned demand of God. So I was like, I mean, am I? Because I know me, I know my thoughts, I know my fears, I know my doubts, I know my struggles. And, and I think the first thing that I would say is, we could really benefit from breaking our human understanding of how all of this works, because our human understanding is, there is a process to get good at something. to get knowledgeable at something, right? So if you wanna be a chemist, you have to take elementary math and science courses, then middle school, and then high school, and then college level, and then there is a process. You can't just suddenly say, you know what, I wanna be a chemist, and then just go to a lab and know what you're doing, right? And so logically, this makes sense, but we apply this to faith as well. And so those with the strongest faiths have to be those who have lived a good life. and who have been Christian a long time and have read the whole Bible and pray this amount and have studied this, that and the other. Maybe they also went to a Christian university. Maybe they also know Hebrew or Greek or, know, we can put all these parameters around what makes a good Christ follower. And then we immediately recognize all the ways we fall short. And so if somebody has, as you noted, this 15 year hard season, it can feel disqualifying. If somebody Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Paul Granger: is a new Christian and they're in their 30s, their 40s, their 50s, their 60s, and think of all the decades that have been wasted and squandered and lost, can think of how far they are from God compared to the good people. Like we can disqualify ourselves so often, but there is a difference between being a good Christian and a good Christ follower. And this is my designation. I sometimes, I'm careful using the word Christian in certain contexts because it has a lot of connotations now. If you Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Paul Granger: get 10 people in a room, they're going to define what a Christian is differently. Some are going to base it on politics. Some are going to base it on stances. So for this conversation, I want to use the term Christ follower. And that's a very different thing because the qualifications for a Christ follower is very simple. It's someone who follows Christ. Right? It's not about how much intellect you have or how long you've it's it is the person following Christ and when they inevitably trip up they Stand up and they keep on following Christ like that is the qualification and that is good news Because that is available to any of us no matter what your story is no matter how far from God you feel and you don't have to look any further Than the people that Jesus chose to follow him many of them had Michael Chestnut: Mm. Paul Granger: plenty of disqualifications and we're told so by the religious leaders of the time. Many of them disqualified themselves. Even the apostle Paul says, you know, I don't understand what I do because what I hate to do, I keep doing it. What I know I'm supposed to do, I don't. What hope is there for me? I'm a wretch. Thanks, Peter Jesus. And so what I would say is that no matter how behind you feel in the race or how ill-equipped or disqualified you feel to be a Christ follower, All you have to do is today, just take a step towards him. And if that step is simply a toe nudge, that's still movement forward. We get locked into this idea of it has to be these grand leaps. Those can come. Those can be beautiful moments, but man, don't diminish the beauty of that simple toe nudge forward. Because what did Jesus say? If you have faith the size of a mustard seed, that Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Paul Granger: was the standard he set. Not, need to see your grand displays of faith, Peter. He said, look, Michael Chestnut: Right. Paul Granger: just, give me mustard seed faith. So that's what I would say is today. If you are wanting to be a Christ follower, then you have already done the most important part. Made that decision that you want to do it. And now just orient your feet into the best of your ability, scoot one forward and then keep on moving. And when you inevitably trip up, get up, dust yourself off and keep following because Jesus loves you so much, He's not going to run ahead down the road. He's going to stay on pace with where you need Him to be. Michael Chestnut: the encouragement part for me is, We're all always going to battle that human side of us and our consciousness till we till we're gone, right? And I've just been studying a lot on grace lately and trying to understand God's grace and how to apply that in my own life. and so I've been trying to define that a little better and I've been trying to see match it up to my actions and and everything else. And I'll I'll be honest with you, I'm having a tough time because my grace and God's grace is totally different. And and Paul Granger: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: where it's displayed and how it's displayed is so, so far from each other sometimes. But what I do love is that no matter what, he's still walking beside me. And I I hate to all these spiritual things that I knew when I was growing up, like pick up your cross and follow me. Paul Granger: you Michael Chestnut: and all the stuff, right? Not that I I don't like that, but it became a spiritual phrase to me instead of an actual action step to do, which is what we're Paul Granger: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: talking about here is, you know, picking up my cross daily because I'm not gonna wake up tomorrow feeling like I'm the a great Christ follower. And Paul Granger: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: that's okay. Paul Granger: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: What's important is to get up and say, okay, God, I feel this way. Be honest. I that's what I love about my God is that I can be honest with him. I I Paul Granger: Yeah. Yeah. Michael Chestnut: mean, if I can tell them all the stuff that's in my book, there is nothing I can't tell them now. Right. And so Paul Granger: Right. Right. Michael Chestnut: I I do love that. I do love getting those times. The the hardest part for me is keeping the enemy away from my ear. Paul Granger: Yeah, what you're talking about is relationship, right? I think this is what we Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Paul Granger: miss as well. Because again, if we treat everything else in life from an intellectual standpoint, you have to gain information and knowledge. If we treat our relationship with God like that, and it's about simply what we know, we're gonna miss it. This is what the Pharisees and the teachers of the law and the Sadducees did. They had a lot of spiritual information and they really missed the mark. But Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Paul Granger: relationship is different. My kids, there's a lot they don't know. But when they choose to be in relationship with me, I know they don't know a lot and I love them and I walk with them and I teach them. Sometimes I correct them. Sometimes I show grace because I know their brain isn't developed yet. Like I know how to relate with them and they're, they don't even have to understand how to relate with me. They simply have to choose to be at the table. And when they choose not to, I'm still staying at the table. But even as I'm saying, I'm realizing like, Michael Chestnut: Mm. Paul Granger: we put so much pressure on ourselves to get it right. And I think this is what so many in scripture found out, is they realized, I can't get it right. I already talked about Paul. I don't understand what I do. David and so many of his Psalms are like, where are you God? Like, I feel like this is all falling apart and I wanna trust you. I need to claim who you are, but man, I feel like you've abandoned me and so many others. I think. we're aware of what you just said. our, no matter how much we try to draw towards God, our humanity is still right there. Our human understanding is still right there, which means we need God. While you were talking, it made me think about a passage in Matthew seven. And you were talking about how you had this understanding of grace and you're realizing you probably need to sit with it and dig in more because your understanding of grace and God's definition of grace aren't always matching up. And so I love that you have this humble willingness to not just go down the path that you laid out for yourself. so Matthew 7 starting in verse 13, enter through the narrow gate for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction. And many enter through it, but small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life. And only a few find it. And that can sometimes feel discouraging, right? Because, man, I hope Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Paul Granger: I'm in the few. I've been sitting with that passage lately because I think one of our big problems is, and I talked about this when I mentioned the term Christian, is there are a lot of ideas of what Christianity is. There is a lot of ideas around theology. You mentioned prosperity, and there are some people that say, well, if you seek God, then he's gonna bless you, and others who will say, no, you need to forego all things and, you experience suffering and then in heaven you'll get it and everywhere in between there are a lot of theologies existing out Michael Chestnut: Yes. Paul Granger: there. There are a lot of denominations of Christianity. There are a lot of thoughts on who God is and what he's called us to and who we are and how we operate and some will say yeah if you do something wrong then you're gonna get punished and others will say it's not a matter of what you like all this so how do how do we function with this when Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Paul Granger: Not only are we wrestling to figure out what we actually believe, but no matter what we believe, there's going to be tension around us. There's going to be opposition around us. And so I feel like all those different theologies are that broad road. And then there's actual reality. Actual reality is God designed it, actual reality as Jesus understood it. And it's this narrow gate that few find because nobody's even looking over there. Why would there be a gate? in the midst of all those thorns. Like, why would there be a gate Michael Chestnut: Yep, yep. Paul Granger: at this part of the road? Like, we just, we aren't even looking for it. And so, you know, I mentioned it can feel discouraging because we're pretty convinced that we might not make the cut of the few that find it. But I think this is where we can be encouraged because the question for me is, if there is this narrow gate that most people miss, how does one come to find that gate? One option is you get lucky. Right? If you happen to turn and Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Paul Granger: see it at the right time. But I think what scripture invites us to the fact that Jesus is saying this is I think what he is telling us is that the other way you find that gate is that you were trying to listen to Jesus so, genuinely that when he is standing at the gate and he's like, Hey, Michael, like you actually turn, right? It's not Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Paul Granger: that you were looking for the gate. It's not that you were going to have the capacity to see it. It's that you wanted to listen for Jesus and when he spoke, you turned your head to where he Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Paul Granger: was and that's how you saw it. Our problem is, is that even if we see that gate, there's a lot of other stuff we're listening to. You mentioned this, the enemy bringing all kinds of fears, all kinds of doubts, all kinds of questions about who you are. That was something I had to sit on the porch and contend with my spiritual father today is he was calling out some things. One specifically, he was naming something that he feels like is an idol. And I kind of bristled at that because I was like, I don't have, I don't have idols. And, know, you use the word like idolize at one point. But what I realized is I was very stuck in a very, finally defined understanding of idol, which is like, you worship this thing and this thing is the most important thing, but you know what? An idol can be anything that has power over your life. And in this one specific area, there Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Paul Granger: were fears that I had that were shaping how I function, how I showed up in the world. Would I call that thing an idol? No, I'm not making a graven image of it. I'm not like worshiping it. I'm not bowing. But is it calling the shots in my life? Ha, yeah, Michael Chestnut: Mm. Paul Granger: yeah. And so we might see the narrow gate, but all these other things can call out to us and have power over our positioning, have power over our steps. And the invitation that Jesus gives is, look, if you really want to follow me, You gotta, you gotta stop following everything else. All Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Paul Granger: of it. He goes so far as to say, your father, your mother, your children. Like what he's saying is there can be nothing else that caused the shots in your life. Because if there is Michael Chestnut: Mm. Paul Granger: anything else, I can guarantee you it's going to win out over your love for me because it is more here and now than I seem to be to you. Even though I am here and now, but those bills seem more pressing. That relationship seems more pressing and you are going to orient yourself towards that. as long as it has power over your life. But if you actually die to all that and follow me, I will not only do immeasurably more than you could ask for, imagine on an eternal level, but also on earth as it is in heaven. But you and I know, even if we get that theology rolling in our mind, we still wake up some days very much aware of the stuff we're afraid of. and very much shaping our life around that. And the good news is, is Jesus never expected us to just get it, it clicks, and then we live perfectly. As again, Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Right. Paul Granger: we saw with Peter, he invites us to journey with him, be in relationship with him, knowing that we will continue to be incapable of being who he's called us to be. But fortunately, the Spirit can do that through us as we become more Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Paul Granger: and more in his likeness. Michael Chestnut: Well, I think a problem is like for me, I I try to be perfect. I try to do everything perfectly, Paul Granger: Hmm. Michael Chestnut: right? And I'm catching myself not trusting God to do it. And so I'm putting my eyes on myself, me trying to be perfect at it, saying that I I want to be perfect perfect at it so God is proud of me. I think a lot of times I feel like I'm the Pharisee. And I have to pray and say, God, please, please don't make me the Pharisee. Please help Paul Granger: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: me not to be to be that. And like you said earlier, Paul Granger: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: help me in my unbelief. And Where the enemy gets me the most is if my prayer time suffers. I love what you're saying about your your talk with God. And I think if people can get something from your life and looking at you and this conversation day is the amount of times that you have this raw, authentic conversation with your heavenly father. And you're not making something spiritualized out of it. It's that relationship. It's an authentic relationship. And I think a lot of us struggle trying to f find that authentic relationship with an invisible father who is pr always present. Paul Granger: I think one thing we can do in those moments is think about human relationships that have a similar dynamic. Let's say you were estranged from somebody, but you want to restore that relationship. Sometimes you have to show up in a certain way before you believe that that person's going to show up in the same way or before you start to feel that closeness again, or before that trust is restored, right? Like, I think we have all experienced relationships that weren't easy and automatic, but were worth showing up for, staying at the table Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Paul Granger: for, and came to be something beautiful. And yeah, you and I have already touched into this analogy of God as a father and us as children. And for those with kids, you can find those connection points of the patience that a father needs to have sometimes with. immature kids and you know the long Michael Chestnut: right. Paul Granger: game nature of it and you know, I was talking with you know on the porch today about how you know with my father passed away when I was five and a few years later my mom remarried and my young self Couldn't accept my stepfather and he didn't even do anything wrong, but he just what I had never called him dad Right. It just felt unnatural. It wasn't until I got into college and my brain Developed a little more and I matured a little more that I realized man this this guy Already had two kids of his own and took on three more kids like he's actually been an amazing dad But it it took me a long time to understand that as a kid and so, know, then there's this piece of How far beyond us God is I mean, he's the god of the universe. It's like how how does an ant relate with a human, you know, they're so far different, Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Paul Granger: right? So like, yes, there is going to be challenging difficulty in our efforts to relate with the God of the universe to understand the God of the universe. That's why there's passages like Proverbs three, five and six, trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways submit Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Paul Granger: to him and he will set your path straight. It's saying right in the middle there, yeah, your understanding is not going to cut it. Like, so don't put all your weight on it. Cause it cannot hold all that weight. The only answer is like, could still have your understanding, but it needs to be packaged between trusting God and submitting to him. But it takes us a journey to get to that point because to trust and to submit, if you do that with the wrong person, we've all experienced that it can go horribly wrong. And Michael Chestnut: Yep. Yeah. Paul Granger: so we build defenses against that. Somebody's got to earn my trust. You know, I'm not Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Paul Granger: going to submit to anybody, but You know, when we get to that place where we mature spiritually enough to actually say, all right, I'm going to trust God, even though, help me in my own belief. Cause I feel like he's going to throw things in my face, you know, Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Paul Granger: so all of this takes. Humility. takes time. takes willingness. but you know, God's ways are not our ways. His thoughts are not our thoughts and his timing is not our timing. So he could do something like that. He could make a trans. transformation like that. We got to we got to let go of the parameters that we're setting on this. Or put another way, we got to just be honest about what it is actually we're actually we're chasing after. Are we actually pursuing a relationship with the God of the universe? Or are we pursuing a relationship with a God who can do what we want them to do? Are we pursuing Michael Chestnut: Yep. Paul Granger: not even a relationship? Are we just pursuing God fixing our things so Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Paul Granger: we can have the life that we want? And that makes logical sense. If God doesn't exist, right, then you're you live, you die, and everything in between, you got to make the most of it. But if we're choosing that God does exist, are we going to treat him like a vending machine, or are we going to treat him like our creator who's worthy of more than we could ever offer, and yet is patient and loving with us? Michael Chestnut: Yeah. And it's hard. I mean, it it it's hard to you think you're doing that. You think you're trusting God. You think you're doing all the right steps and then you f and then you you have those moments, then you're like, but I I I do like the aha moments too of growth. Because Paul Granger: Mm-hmm, yeah. Michael Chestnut: it it's different. It's not God punishing me saying, Look, you did been doing this wrong smack. No, it's like your eyes are open. And you see a new part of God, and to me that's great because then it's like the God of this universe just showed me something, you know, and I and I loved it. So I think it's perspective with that, like I said. And the hardest part is removing my own desires, trying to know what God's desires are versus mine. And I go back to when I was coming out of my failures twenty years ago when my world fell apart. I had to pray for many, many years. Once I could start praying, it took me a while to even be able to pray. When I was trying to find my way back to God, I had to constantly, my biggest prayer was, God, make your desires mine. Because my desires were not I wanted my desires to be his, but I found out I had I couldn't even control my own desires. I couldn't even try control those. So I had to give them to God. And that might be where some people are at today. You know, right Paul Granger: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: now it's it's quit leaning on your own self. You know, Proverbs 3, 5, and 6, trust God, walk Paul Granger: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Michael Chestnut: that path, and and enjoy the journey. That's that's Paul Granger: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: the the best part of it, I I look at some of the past. in those valleys where I thought where is God? And then you're like, there he was. There he was. Paul Granger: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: that's what he wanted to do. Why were you like the guys on the boat, why were you why are you afraid? Why were you afraid? God was with you the whole time. So well Paul, thank you Paul Granger: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Michael Chestnut: so much for all this today. It's been great to talk to you Paul Granger: Yeah Michael Chestnut: again. And it was also great to be able to share with you, what that conversation meant to me. Four years Paul Granger: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: later. And before we go though, you're an author. I don't know how many books you've written, but you've written a lot of books. And you Paul Granger: Yeah, I have. Michael Chestnut: gotta so tell us about the new one out. And then for the guy, is there anything that you've written that might help Paul Granger: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: someone on this journey we just talked about? Paul Granger: Yeah, so the new one actually got here something in the froth. So the quick hit of this is it looks like and functionally is a fun little coffee table book where you got a picture of regular coffee froth. But Michael Chestnut: Right. Paul Granger: when you turn the page, you see what I found in the froth. So it's fun. If you're having a bad day, it be enjoyable. But that's not that's not the deeper heart of this book. There's two things that I hope come out of this one. is I hope it inspires people to discover the innate creativity that they have within them. I believe we're made in the image of God. God's a creator. That means we're made in the image of a creator. That means creativity is a part of who we are. And instead of having the two images side by side so you could compare them, the reason you have to flip the page is because it forces you to look and see if you see something first before seeing what Michael Chestnut: Mm. Paul Granger: I found. So that's part of it. that people discover that they actually have creativity within them, even if they don't feel artistic, musical, creativity is deeper than that. But the second piece is this, by practicing it in a simple way with coffee froth, my hope is people discover that that creativity actually can be powerful in their everyday life. Just like you can find something in the froth, you can look at the most hopeless situation and that God-given creativity can kick in and you can find value and purpose where you otherwise would have thought there was nothing. And so, if, anyone likes fun little books like that, that's available. to your other point, I've, this is the first professionally published book with Morgan James publishing. The rest are self published on Amazon. And my hope has always been to create authentic, accessible space to process who God is, who he's made us to be and what that means for today. And what that is look like in part is a lot of writing. so. two dozen books, and most of them are written not as though I'm the expert, but often when I'm in the midst of it. As we talked about, I'm still in the middle of it. So one of them, for example, I think came out January, it's called Rejecting Hope No Longer. And I realized I was mad at God for not giving me hope. And then I realized, what if God actually is offering hope and I'm the one rejecting it? And so I spent 30 days looking at passages on hope, actually recorded myself. And was like very raw and brutally honest. Like sometimes I would laugh after reading it. I'm like, this verse is funny because I don't feel this at all right now. Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Paul Granger: but I share that to say my hope is, is that if there are people like you described that are feeling disconnected from God, feeling low or questioning God or having a hard time, there are a lot of things that I've written that I was in that place. and I want to walk with people from that place, not as the person as you share at the start, who's like, I figured it out. Here's what you need Michael Chestnut: Right. Paul Granger: to do, like, yeah, nope, I resonate with you. I'm right there with you. Let's go, let's keep walking together. yeah, I mean, and if there's something that somebody feels like I haven't touched on, they can reach out, because who knows? You may be the inspiration for the next book God prompts me to create. Michael Chestnut: that's awesome. So, any website they go to to find those? Paul Granger: Yeah. So, everything, the books, the podcast videos, things like that. All right. Where did you see God.com? the podcast is wherever you stream podcasts. The books are on Amazon and something in the froth is wherever you buy books. but where did you see God.com is the easy one simple link to find everything. Michael Chestnut: And I'll make sure we got that link in the description too. So you guys can just click on it and go there. Paul, again, thank you so much for being here today. And to my listeners, I hope you enjoyed this conversation. And if there's anything like Paul said, that touched you that you feel God was resonating with you, let us know. Reach out. I love seeing those comments. And until next time, just keep being intentional.