Latest / Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD / Steve Levitt's Late-Night Panic Google

Transcript

Steve Levitt's Late-Night Panic Google · Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: This is parent Data. I'm Emily Oster Steve Lovitt. Welcome
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: to Late Night Panic Google.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Emily, It's always so much fun to
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: talk with you.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: I love it.
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: Okay, for those of those of the people listening who
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: are not familiar with your work, I can't imagine there
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: are any, But how about if you introduce yourself.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: So I'm Steve Lovett, and I am a professor of
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: economics at the University of Chicago, and mostly I'm known
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: because with Stephen Dubnair, we wrote a book called Freakonomics
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: many years ago, and we've got the Freakonomics radio podcast,
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: and I do a podcast called People I Mostly Admire,
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: which you were a guest on.
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: I was a guest on, and you are largely responsible
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: for most of my professal accomplishments. You hired me at Chicago,
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: and then you also introduced me to my book agent,
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: which is why I'm here in a kind of securitous way.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: So thank you.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad I could play some small role. I
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: have always felt like you were one of the most
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: talented people I've ever met in so many dimensions, So
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: I'm glad things have worked out so well.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: Thanks, Steve. Okay, tell us about your kids. What kind
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: of kids you have?
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: So I have seven kids. I have four kids who
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: are now in their twenties, and I have three little
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: ones who are seven, six, and two, and mostly they're
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: pretty tough kids.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: That's so many more children than I have, and you.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Were smart to stop. I think if I could do
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: it over, I would have a few. I would have
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: fewer kids.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: It's hard to pick the ones you don't want, though,
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: you know. So what's it like before we get.
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: Into late that panicogle, how was it to kind of
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: restart a bit with younger kids after having the big ones?
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: You know, I really thought, my god, I really blew
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: it the first time around with the kids. I didn't
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: know what I was doing. I was too busy, And
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: now I get it really a rare second chance to
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: really start over. But with all of the knowledge of
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  Speaker 2: having raised four children, and I would say I literally
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: made every single same mistake I made the first time around,
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  Speaker 2: and I couldn't remember anything. I think the problem was
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: I was so sleep deprived with the first four kids
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: that I couldn't remember what the mistakes were until I
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: made them. And they're like, my god, wait, why did
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: I do that? That's what I did with the first four.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: So it's really been in many ways being completely candid disappointing.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: Disappointing from the sense of I really expected that I
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: would be an amazing dad the second time around, and
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: I ended up being completely mediocre, just like I was
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: the first time.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: Oh my god. Okay, Steve, So what's your late night panic? Google?
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: So I one of my daughters, Sophie, was at eighteen
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: months old, and as we were changing her diaper, when
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: we looked inside it, there was an enormous worm. I
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: mean we're not talking small worm. We're talking about at
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: least six inches long. Basically it looked like an earthworm.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: And it was in her poop, in her diaper.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: In wait, so, just I'm sorry, can we paint? Is
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: it inside the poop?
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  Speaker 3: So it's obviously it hasn't just like crawled in there
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: from somewhere else.
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  Speaker 2: No, it's clearly part of the embedded in it. Part
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: of it clearly came out of her body.
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  Speaker 4: OK.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: So what do you do? Well, I put it, So
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: what do you do?
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  Speaker 4: So?
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  Speaker 2: I first I took pictures, which I still have, and
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: if your audience is interested, maybe you want to post
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: them as well.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: My audience is not interested.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: And then we took the poop and the worm and
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: we went to our pediatrician. And the pediatricians reaction is
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: one that I have come to be very familiar with
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  Speaker 2: in medicine. Whenever you delivered to them a problem that
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: they have not seen before, they are lighted. They take
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: incredible joy in the idea that there's some kind of
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: suffering that you're going through that they have not observed
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  Speaker 2: other people suffering before. And the twinkle in her eye
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  Speaker 2: was really something on the over because the thing.
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: Is, they see worms all the time, but usually they're
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  Speaker 3: very small like pinworms, which we've discussed many times on
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: this podcast, are very common.
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  Speaker 1: But this isn't a usual this is unusual worm. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So this was at the University of Chicago, so I
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  Speaker 2: expected rightfully that we should get excellent care. So they
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  Speaker 2: took the worm away and the diaper and they sent
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: it to their specialist in worms and infectious diseases. And
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  Speaker 2: a few days later I get a phone call from
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: the pediatrician and she says, we know what it is.
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  Speaker 2: I said, what is it? She says, it's an earthworm?
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: Your kid ate an earthworm.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: Well, I wasn't. I was a little bit surprised. So
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  Speaker 2: I said, how do you think the earthworm got into
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: her body? And she said, well, was she eating dirt?
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: And I said, no, she wasn't eating dirt. But just
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: to continue this theme, let's say she was eating dirt.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: Do you think she ate a six inch earthworm? Or
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: do you think she ate a little baby earthworm? And
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: then the earthworm grew inside her stomach? And the woman
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: said could be either one, and I.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: Said no, he could not be either one.
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  Speaker 2: So I said, I don't really know much about earthworms,
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  Speaker 2: but I do know that birds eat worms, and so
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  Speaker 2: birds are able to just worms. I don't really have
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: the feeling like the human intestine is a particularly friendly
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: environment for earthworms. Do you think? She said it's an earthworm?
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: And I said, okay, what should we do about it?
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  Speaker 2: And she said, try to keep your child from eat dirt.
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  Speaker 2: So I literally went to Google. I'm not a physician,
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  Speaker 2: but I do know how to Google, and I typed
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: in baby poop earthworm, okay, and the first thing that
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: pops up is a picture of the first thing that
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: pops up is something called askris. So I click on
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  Speaker 2: it and it says Askris is a worm that infects
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: one billion people worldwide. Now I haven't mentioned yet that
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: my daughter Sophie was adopted from China and she grew
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: up in World China. She had been there for most
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: of her life. And this is something like twenty percent
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  Speaker 2: of the Chinese population is infected with asgris. And then
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: you look at the picture and it looks almost exactly
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: like an earthworm. So I called up my pediatrician and
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: I said, hey, can you google askris because I think
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: that maybe it wasn't an earthworm. And she said, she
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: writes down Askris. She says, okay, well go back to
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: the expert and I'll let you know. So she called
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: me back two days later. She said, I talked to
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: the expert. It was definitely in earthworm and I said
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: I would like it back and she said what are
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: you talking about.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: He said, I would like it back. Yeah, I'm coming
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: to get my earth yeah.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: And she said and she said, well what do you mean.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: I said, well, I want it back and she said, well,
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  Speaker 2: we don't have it. I said, well, then, how can
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: your expert be so sure it's not askris if you
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: already threw it out. How do you go back and
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: confirm anyway it was? It became quite contentious, and so
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: what I did is continuing my use of Google. I
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: googled treatment for Asgarris and it said exactly what dose
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: of what particular anti worm thing you needed. So I
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  Speaker 2: called up my father, who's a doctor, and I said, hey, Dad,
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: Sophie has asked Ris. Can you prescribe me to this drug?
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: He said sure, and I went to Walgreens, I picked
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: it up, we gave it to Selvie, and I'm happy
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  Speaker 2: to say there have been no more earthworms for the
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: next twenty years of Selvie's life.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: I have some follow up questions.
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  Speaker 3: Did you call the pediatrician back to explain that they
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: were wrong or did you just let it go?
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: I just let it go. I mean it was completely hopeless.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: I mean any reasonable person would first of all, not
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  Speaker 2: have called that an earthworm. And what's really scary to me.
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  Speaker 2: So I can understand the pediatrician has a lot of
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: things on her mind and she wouldn't know but that
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: she actually at least claimed to have sent this to
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  Speaker 2: the infectious disease expert at the University of oh.
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  Speaker 1: So you're you think she didn't send it at all
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: in the first place.
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  Speaker 2: No, I think she did. And I think whoever whoever's
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: masquerading as an infectious disease specialist at the University of
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  Speaker 2: Chicago must not run into ask Ris very often because
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  Speaker 2: they don't see people from China. I don't know, but
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  Speaker 2: it was really amazing. I mean, it did look like
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: an earthworm. So honestly, if you were a complete idiot,
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: you would have said, it's an earworm.
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  Speaker 3: But let me push back on that, although I of
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  Speaker 3: course would have behaved exactly like you did.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: But the if, like, let's say you were a good.
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: Baysian, right, you might have thought that unless you knew
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: that she was from China. Maybe when you typically see
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: a large worm earthworm in a kid's poop, it is
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: that they ate an earthworm, not that it grew in
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  Speaker 3: their stomach, which is a ridiculous idea.
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  Speaker 2: But as far as I can tell, there has never
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: been an earthworm coming out in a human way. I'm
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: not sure that it makes sense.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: You you probably digest it, right, Yeah.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: This thing was and and this thing it's it was solid.
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  Speaker 2: It wasn't like it was a I mean, can you
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  Speaker 2: imagine an eighteen month old sucking down a six inch
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  Speaker 2: wriggling worm. I mean it's crazy.
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  Speaker 1: I mean it, no, it is.
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  Speaker 4: It's a ridiculous idea, although not as ridiculous as the
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: idea that human intestine is a good place to grow earthworms,
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: which is like a bit like they tell you don't
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: swallow the watermelon seed, like you'd never know find that.
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: That's an amazing that's an amazing story. Did you do
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: you think there's some deep lesson you learned.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: There other other from about Google or anything.
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  Speaker 2: I mean I didn't learn it there because I already
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  Speaker 2: knew it, which is that if you have anything weird
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  Speaker 2: going on health wise, within about a half an hour,
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  Speaker 2: you can know more about it than your your general
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  Speaker 2: practitioner does. It's just doctors know about stuff they see
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  Speaker 2: all the time. They know almost nothing about rare things.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: So if you the risk of Google is you convince
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: yourself you have some the ring which is going to
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: kill you, which you don't have. But if you literally
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: know you have, if you have the worm in your hand,
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: and then you discovered that a billion other people have
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: the same worm, then you can take solace in the
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: fact that it's not weird. In China. It's only weird here.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: So I did learn that in the modern world you
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: should as a patient you have to self advocate. You
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: have to know as much as possible when you go
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: in there. If I had gone in there and said, hey,
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: my daughter has Askris here it is, I doubt they
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  Speaker 2: would have come back with the diagnosis of earthworm, because
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: they would have googled Askris, what is Askris, and then
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: they would have realized that I had already made the diagnosis.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: I never the other thing I well, I wouldn't say
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: I learned it, But the other thing I did is
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: I got a new doctor. And I think once you
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: find out that your doctor is completely and utterly incompetent,
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: and not only incompetent, but uninterested in updating their views
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: in the phase of evidence which is overwhelming, then you
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: have got to give yourself a new doctor as quickly
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: as possible.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: Steve, this was a delight. Thank you for sharing.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: Good. I'm always I'm always excited to talk about worms
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: inside of people's bodies too.
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: This is actually the second, the second late I panic
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: Google that focuses on worms so well, it's like a
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: it's a mini series poop Worms poop worms and panic.
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: That would be that we should that's a good band name.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: We should consider that.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: I like that.
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: Thanks Steve, Thank you Elli,