Latest / My Favorite Things / My Favorite Things Episode 15: Fitz Cahall

Transcript

My Favorite Things Episode 15: Fitz Cahall · My Favorite Things

0:01
Fitzcahal thanks for being here it's a pleasure to be here it
0:07
better be a pleasure
0:08
sorry I don't know why I lost my it was so formal that's
0:13
fantastic I know I'm
0:15
thrilled to be here Brendan first time we've ever done that can
0:20
you tell people a
0:21
SPEAKER_00: little bit about about who you are
0:24
SPEAKER_01: About who I am.
0:26
SPEAKER_01: Well, I am many things, I feel like.
0:29
SPEAKER_01: But I think I'm best known for creating the Dirtbag Diaries podcast.
0:36
SPEAKER_01: I think I'm the original.
0:38
SPEAKER_01: It was early.
0:38
SPEAKER_01: Let me say, I'm kind of old.
0:41
SPEAKER_01: We started in 2007.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: There weren't that many podcasts.
0:44
SPEAKER_01: And...
0:45
We created a show about the outdoors and lives live there and
0:50
just wanted to do
0:51
things differently than how the rest of the media at the time
0:54
was covering the
0:56
SPEAKER_01: outdoors.
0:57
SPEAKER_01: So I just didn't give a shit about the sponsored athletes.
0:59
Not that they're not good people,
1:01
but like I just I wasn't that interested in it.
1:03
Like there were so many powerful stories about people having
1:05
powerful experiences.
1:07
And it seems like pretty silly to sort of be like we can only
1:10
tell a story about
1:11
SPEAKER_01: somebody unless they're sponsored by the North Face.
1:15
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: I did that and somehow it's worked.
1:18
SPEAKER_01: And 19 years later, we're still here, still doing it.
1:22
SPEAKER_01: People are still listening.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I'm also a dad.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: I love being outdoors.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: I climb, mountain bike, ski or snowboard, I should say, and run.
1:33
Although don't do any of those at a particularly high level,
1:37
but I'm very passionate about them.
1:44
Occasionally I've done something that's kind of cool but mostly
1:48
I just have fun I
1:50
cannot believe it's been 19 years that should be illegal yeah
1:56
it should be
1:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: I honestly got it.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, what the F?
2:01
SPEAKER_01: I feel like I'm 32 still.
2:03
SPEAKER_01: I mean, not a day over 32.
2:05
SPEAKER_01: That's great, man.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: As you know, this show is called My
2:12
favorite things and I've asked you to send me a list of five of
2:15
your favorite
2:16
creative works throughout your life so I'm just gonna lead you
2:20
through this this is
2:21
a really hard task by the way I know but I know I'm up for it I
2:24
was like I feel
2:26
like you would ask me a different day and I might come up with
2:28
different things but
2:28
I have come up with a list of five things that I think will be
2:32
fairly embarrassing
2:34
SPEAKER_01: but oh make it for a good podcast so be prepared
2:38
SPEAKER_00: No, all the emotional labor here is on the guest.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: It's very easy for me.
2:41
SPEAKER_00: Really, I just have to show up and ask questions.
2:43
SPEAKER_00: It's fantastic.
2:45
But we get to know you and we get to know a little bit about
2:47
some of the pieces of
2:48
SPEAKER_00: art that have made a difference in your life.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: So number one.
2:53
SPEAKER_00: You wrote Public Enemy,
2:55
SPEAKER_00: Apocalypse 91,
2:57
SPEAKER_00: and Rage Against the Machine,
2:59
SPEAKER_00: which are two different things.
3:00
SPEAKER_01: You were very strict about this five thing, and that was the tough call.
3:04
SPEAKER_01: So I picked Public Enemy's seminal album.
3:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Apocalypse 91.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: And I think even in particular,
3:16
SPEAKER_01: there's like one song for that album,
3:19
SPEAKER_01: which is By the Time I Get to Arizona.
3:22
SPEAKER_01: And...
3:23
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
3:26
SPEAKER_01: Music was a huge part of my life as a teenager growing up.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: It was like how I escaped.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: It was like my happy place.
3:33
SPEAKER_01: I didn't necessarily like one genre over the other, but it was this
3:38
like just super powerful part of my life where I created music
3:42
I listened to music
3:43
and I would say at least six to seven hours of my day were
3:47
either spent playing
3:48
music or listening to music every single day and so I had like
3:51
a pretty wide
3:52
variety of interests and tastes but this album kind of like
3:56
came into my world I
3:57
was you know living in like very suburban Florida at the time
4:03
and you know like it
4:03
SPEAKER_01: wasn't
4:07
I wasn't uncultured or anything like that,
4:12
but it was a weird place to live.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: There were a lot of old people.
4:16
SPEAKER_01: You're kind of in this bubble.
4:19
SPEAKER_01: That's sort of the setting that I grew up in.
4:22
SPEAKER_01: It was pretty homogeneous, just
4:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know how it was.
4:28
SPEAKER_01: And I think that I was always just like this really curious kid too.
4:32
SPEAKER_01: And my parents would be like, you have an overdeveloped sense of justice.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: They would always say that because I would kind of be that way.
4:38
SPEAKER_01: And so for me, like, dude, this like hip hop album,
4:41
SPEAKER_01: public enemy ends up in my world.
4:43
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, what the heck?
4:44
SPEAKER_01: And Chuck D's kind of talking about the fact that at that moment in time,
4:48
SPEAKER_01: the state of Arizona,
4:49
SPEAKER_01: the governor and the legislature had basically said,
4:51
SPEAKER_01: we're not doing Martin Luther King Jr.
4:53
SPEAKER_01: Day.
4:54
SPEAKER_01: Like it was wild to me.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: And it was like the world I grew up in
5:00
like I certainly bumped into racism like I that was like a part
5:04
like I was Florida
5:05
like you would hear some of that but a lot of it was like well
5:08
like these problems
5:09
are past us like you know that that was like oh those are the
5:13
old ways or the old
5:14
days right and and growing up like once again sorry you're
5:17
gonna have to cut this
5:18
there's a giant bus outside can you imagine that how rude um
5:22
dude that's fine
5:23
freaking public transport no no anyway so yeah he's gonna leave
5:27
it in anyway um
5:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
5:32
SPEAKER_01: I just,
5:33
SPEAKER_01: there was that moment,
5:34
SPEAKER_01: that song came out,
5:36
SPEAKER_01: and it made me realize,
5:37
SPEAKER_01: like,
5:38
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
5:38
SPEAKER_01: it was just like one of those things,
5:39
SPEAKER_01: like,
5:39
SPEAKER_01: what is happening?
5:41
SPEAKER_01: in this world.
5:41
SPEAKER_01: Like,
5:42
and that for me was this really incredible way of how media can
5:50
open up someone's
5:52
SPEAKER_01: view of the world,
5:54
SPEAKER_01: right?
5:54
That something like that can find a 12-year-old kid in suburban
5:59
Florida and make
6:00
SPEAKER_01: them question their reality of like,
6:03
SPEAKER_01: what's going on?
6:05
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, fortunately, I mean, it was like,
6:09
SPEAKER_01: My parents were not purely political.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: They did not protest the Vietnam War.
6:15
SPEAKER_01: My mom famously turned down going to Woodstock.
6:17
SPEAKER_01: They were not kind of of that...
6:21
SPEAKER_01: It just wasn't something...
6:25
that idea of sort of like activism was just like not a part of
6:28
our world and I
6:31
think that album like it just it just all hit at this crazy
6:34
time and I mean I
6:35
really felt some of those things where I was like there's this
6:38
this really strange
6:39
thing where everyone wants to sort of say like it's all okay
6:41
but then you would
6:42
sort of get these appearances and be like it's not okay for
6:44
everyone and I mean I
6:46
have this like and I said this would be embarrassing but like I
6:49
have this very
6:49
SPEAKER_01: clear memory of like when um
6:54
SPEAKER_01: of when the Rodney King verdict came out in,
6:57
SPEAKER_01: I think it was late April of 92,
6:59
SPEAKER_01: maybe April 29th of 1992.
7:01
SPEAKER_01: And,
7:02
SPEAKER_01: you know,
7:03
SPEAKER_01: I'd seen this footage on the nightly news,
7:06
SPEAKER_01: you know,
7:06
SPEAKER_01: I'd see it and then I'd like to come back and be like,
7:08
SPEAKER_01: they didn't,
7:09
SPEAKER_01: they let these officers off this hook.
7:11
And I remember like almost being in tears as like a 12-year-old
7:14
basically of being
7:15
SPEAKER_01: like,
7:16
SPEAKER_01: this is not right.
7:17
SPEAKER_01: This world is not correct.
7:20
SPEAKER_01: And I remember taking my boombox with...
7:24
the Public Enemy CD or tape and going to the street corner in
7:28
Florida with a sign I
7:30
made I don't even know where like that just said no justice and
7:33
I was like this
7:33
SPEAKER_01: lone kid standing on the street corner listening to Apocalypse 91 like
7:41
I don't I don't think anyone even knew what I was talking about
7:44
like I'm like not
7:45
like there there was no reference for it like it was so out of
7:49
the blue like but I
7:51
stood out there for like two hours and and did that and that
7:55
for me it was like
7:56
this power of what what media can do what art what creativity
8:01
can bring like how it
8:02
can kind of bring people into other worlds and you know it's
8:05
like the same way the
8:06
the it's really funny because like I was like the Rage Against
8:08
Machine album like
8:10
you know and I think there's a cut off their first album
8:14
Freedom which is all about
8:16
the American Indian movement and Leonard Peltier and that for
8:19
me was like what is
8:20
this like again like it was this like window into it and then
8:22
you know the next
8:23
thing I know like my I don't know what my history or my English
8:26
teacher like it's
8:27
like I want to do my report on this is like my big school
8:31
report is going to be
8:32
about the American Indian movement and radicalism and like all
8:35
this stuff is like a
8:36
SPEAKER_01: seventh grader or whatever and like so I just loved
8:39
That those are like bits of media that stuck with me that just
8:45
sort of exemplified
8:46
in my mind what the power of creativity could do in terms of
8:51
illuminating the world
8:52
SPEAKER_01: for others that were not like you.
8:55
SPEAKER_01: And that was it was I got it,
9:00
SPEAKER_01: you know,
9:01
SPEAKER_01: like from a really young age because of those things like I got it.
9:04
SPEAKER_01: There's power in this.
9:06
SPEAKER_01: And that's rad.
9:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to link those two together for you.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: There's a documentary about Public Enemy.
9:12
SPEAKER_00: I think it's free online.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: I think it's actually called Welcome to the Terror Dome,
9:18
but I believe Tom Morello from Rage Against the Machine is
9:21
interviewed in this
9:21
SPEAKER_00: documentary.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure.
9:24
SPEAKER_01: They're very kindred spirits.
9:26
SPEAKER_00: Right.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: Well,
9:27
SPEAKER_00: I would say without Public Enemy,
9:29
SPEAKER_00: there's no Rage Against the Machine,
9:30
SPEAKER_00: but I could be wrong.
9:31
SPEAKER_00: That's probably true.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: He says...
9:35
SPEAKER_00: You know,
9:35
SPEAKER_00: when I was experimenting with my guitar,
9:37
SPEAKER_00: trying to make all these crazy sounds,
9:39
I wanted to make it sound like Terminator X scratching on
9:43
turntables in Terminator
9:45
SPEAKER_00: X's Public Enemy's DJ.
9:47
SPEAKER_00: And if you listen, you're like, oh, yeah, you nailed it.
9:50
Tom Morello um so that's how we can link those two things
9:54
together how I have a
9:56
question though how is this how is Apocalypse 91 make its way
10:01
into your 12 year old
10:02
hands in this neighborhood in Florida I mean the mall like
10:06
that's the only way yeah
10:07
that that like no 100% I mean like it was like what will we do
10:11
as a family and the
10:12
SPEAKER_01: family activity is
10:14
like my my my parents are wonderful people and they're pretty
10:18
creative interesting
10:19
people that have had like these wild past two lives but we were
10:21
like it was I mean
10:24
dude that was like our family fun was like to go to the mall
10:27
and we'd all go and
10:29
SPEAKER_01: you're like you'd go and you'd like
10:32
I don't know dude it was like sport I don't even we would just
10:35
go for entertainment
10:36
like honest to God I'd be like oh I'll go try out the massage
10:38
chair at the sharper
10:39
image you know and then you'd wander from one side to the other
10:43
and just like look
10:43
at it and like you maybe go to the video game store and like
10:46
look at what video I
10:48
honest to God that's what it was but I would use my money to
10:52
buy records so like my
10:55
SPEAKER_01: allowance and the money I you know
10:57
Semi-Made from Jobs and stuff like that,
10:59
I definitely went to the record store.
11:03
SPEAKER_01: And that's certainly how that came into my world.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that video had much airplay on MTV,
11:12
SPEAKER_01: but I would definitely watch 120 Minutes,
11:15
SPEAKER_01: which was their...
11:16
I would record it on VHS because it was midnight on Saturday
11:19
nights,
11:19
I think it was.
11:20
So I'd set up the VCR and then watch it in the morning and it'd
11:23
be all cool.
11:25
or you know and and then certain like certainly like it was
11:28
probably on UOM TV raps
11:30
as well the public enemy was like maybe Rage first showed up at
11:33
the like on the 120
11:35
minutes or whatever but yeah like I was like looking for stuff
11:38
like that and
11:39
interested and certainly like it was just like through the
11:43
suburban mall Palm Beach
11:45
Gardens mall man so you and you must have flipped through these
11:48
racks and found
11:49
this public enemy CD or tape and been like oh look at the cover
11:53
of this thing
11:54
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it wasn't out of the blue.
11:55
SPEAKER_01: I must have heard the song already.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: Like, I must have heard it on MTV somewhere.
12:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:02
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: I would imagine before I bought the album.
12:05
SPEAKER_01: But maybe not.
12:06
SPEAKER_01: Maybe I just bought the album.
12:07
SPEAKER_01: I have no idea.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I owned a couple of the Public Enemy albums.
12:10
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
12:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:13
SPEAKER_00: Oh, amazing.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure how to segue between these last ones.
12:28
SPEAKER_00: is the book A River Runs Through It by Norman McLean.
12:32
SPEAKER_00: Right from the public enemy segue into Norman McLean.
12:36
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
12:37
SPEAKER_00: Who grew up probably a mile from where I'm recording this right now.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: That's cool.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: In Missoula, Montana.
12:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:44
um how old are you when this comes into your life that I don't
12:49
I know probably a
12:49
teenager like a little bit like I think this is pretty like
12:52
linear in terms of my
12:54
mind of like when did this all this stuff happen like I was
12:56
like the the the the
12:59
Public Enemy,
13:00
Rage Against the Machine was probably earlier than The River
13:03
Runs Through It.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: But I think for me, that book, I don't know how it ended up in my life.
13:12
I'm not sure who gave it to me or how it was assigned at school
13:17
or whatever.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: But again, what it did is it opened up this world to me where
13:24
I like the descriptions of being like in Montana and fishing
13:28
and I had also like I
13:30
lived in Florida at that point but like as a kid I lived in
13:33
different places and we
13:36
SPEAKER_01: lived in Washington DC and outside of our house when I was really young
13:39
SPEAKER_01: Semi-Rad
13:54
I loved being outside I had these really clear memories as a
14:00
kid like the hillside
14:01
behind my grandparents' home my other grandparents lived in
14:06
rural Pennsylvania and
14:07
there was a stream next to them these really powerful moments
14:11
and this was the
14:12
first time when I read River Runs Through It and these
14:14
descriptions of the fishing
14:17
SPEAKER_01: and being outdoors it was like
14:20
SPEAKER_01: Oh, other people feel what I feel.
14:24
Like it was like a way to name what I felt when I was outside
14:27
and realize that
14:29
SPEAKER_01: other people were doing that.
14:30
SPEAKER_01: Other people were building their like
14:33
lives around that like that that's even like and obviously it
14:36
was like happened a
14:37
long time ago but that idea of like something like fly fishing
14:42
could be a part of
14:44
your life through from the beginning to the end was was pretty
14:48
novel and I mean I
14:48
was like that was not I was not fly fishing at that time you
14:52
know or anything like
14:53
that but it was this incredible thing of being like someone has
14:56
just named the
14:57
SPEAKER_01: feeling that I experience when I'm
15:02
you know running around in the woods and that was that was like
15:07
a that was like a
15:09
pretty profound I mean I read that several times I remember
15:13
reading it and being
15:14
SPEAKER_01: like this is this is really cool and yeah so again it was just like that
15:22
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
15:23
SPEAKER_01: books,
15:23
SPEAKER_01: media,
15:24
SPEAKER_01: again,
15:24
SPEAKER_01: it's like they just,
15:25
it has the power to like open up worlds for people if you're
15:30
curious enough.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: And I think that book kind of did that for me.
15:35
SPEAKER_01: It made me think about the West and, you know, I mean, I think it
15:39
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't say it's like a perfect one-to-one,
15:42
but I think that it's like when it came time for me to think
15:44
about where do I go
15:46
SPEAKER_01: when I'm out on my own,
15:48
I think that it played a big part in me being interested in the
15:53
Western landscape,
15:54
which has become a huge part of my life and arguably the
15:58
backbone of my entire
15:59
SPEAKER_01: career.
16:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, one-to-one you would have ended up at the University of Montana.
16:05
SPEAKER_00: That's true.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: The Harvard of Western Montana, as we call it.
16:13
SPEAKER_00: No one calls it that.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: I'm just kidding.
16:15
SPEAKER_00: So...
16:17
Do you tell people that it's like,
16:19
I'm a graduate of the Harvard of Western Montana.
16:24
SPEAKER_00: I have a degree from the Harvard of Western Montana.
16:29
SPEAKER_00: I actually wanted to make some sweatshirts,
16:30
but I feel like they're probably going to get a cease and
16:33
desist pretty quickly
16:34
SPEAKER_00: from one of the two universities.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: So let's just let it go.
16:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: So do you fly fish now?
16:42
SPEAKER_00: Like how many fly fishing days do you think you have under your belts?
16:46
SPEAKER_01: My life?
16:47
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I did get interested in fly fishing.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it wasn't like, oh, there it is.
16:54
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I've definitely fished a fair amount of my life.
16:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm by no means...
16:59
SPEAKER_01: Growing up in Florida,
16:59
SPEAKER_01: I would fish,
17:00
but it would be the kind of thing where you'd get a snail from
17:03
the wall and put it
17:04
SPEAKER_01: on a hook and catch a sheep's head in the intercoastal waterway.
17:09
SPEAKER_01: So that was a part of my world.
17:13
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I don't know.
17:14
I don't know how many days I've fished total in my life,
17:18
but it's got to be more than 100.
17:22
SPEAKER_01: Let's put it that way.
17:23
SPEAKER_00: Okay, but less than climbing and skiing.
17:26
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, certainly.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:28
But like if we were to go out,
17:30
like if someone were like,
17:31
yeah,
17:31
do you want to go fishing?
17:32
SPEAKER_01: I'd be like, sure.
17:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I could go.
17:35
SPEAKER_00: I fish,
17:37
like I fly fished in the last two years once and I fished like
17:41
with like a meat and
17:44
SPEAKER_01: potatoes kind of fishing probably like two or three times with the boys.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: With like worms or like a lure.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: Big treble hook.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:53
yes the much maligned bait fisherman in the book in the book in
17:59
the movie I know
18:00
yeah the goddamn bait fisherman I'm like yep that's me now I'm
18:03
like if I catch a
18:04
fish I'm psyched do you remember looking for other books that
18:09
would do sort of a
18:10
SPEAKER_00: similar thing for you after you read A River Runs Through It um
18:21
yeah I do it's really interesting though because like I think
18:24
when that book came
18:25
out there weren't actually that many books like it like like
18:28
like realistically and
18:29
it's funny because it's the 50th anniversary and that that book
18:32
is just coming out
18:33
and I like I don't think that there were that many books that
18:39
kind of had that or
18:42
at least like that I was aware of that had sort of this like
18:44
lyrical nature you
18:46
SPEAKER_01: know I mean that book is is uh I
18:50
SPEAKER_01: I think it's loosely fictionalized.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: It's not a perfect memoir,
18:55
but it's a lot of truth and a lot of convenient fiction in
19:00
terms of making it a
19:01
SPEAKER_01: better story.
19:03
But I do think that there was kind of a shift that probably
19:06
started to happen,
19:07
right?
19:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
19:07
SPEAKER_01: I think that after that,
19:08
SPEAKER_01: there were books like Bill Bryson's Walk in the Woods,
19:12
SPEAKER_01: or there were books like,
19:14
SPEAKER_01: you know,
19:15
SPEAKER_01: obviously Into the Wild,
19:16
SPEAKER_01: Into Thin Air,
19:18
SPEAKER_01: the Krakauer books.
19:19
SPEAKER_01: Those came out afterwards.
19:20
So I think that maybe The River Runs Through It primed me to be
19:24
interested in some
19:25
SPEAKER_01: of that other stuff.
19:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that kind of did focus on the outdoors.
19:31
I don't I'm trying to think if there's like another book I'm
19:34
missing right now that
19:36
it was but for yeah I don't know that was it was pretty it was
19:40
pretty different
19:41
it's pretty yeah novel no it's beautiful and he only wrote two
19:46
books you didn't get
19:47
my bad joke yeah I did now that you say that I'm like yeah
19:54
sorry dad joke I
19:58
SPEAKER_00: It is.
19:59
It's pretty novella,
20:00
actually,
20:00
I believe is what the length of it would say.
20:04
SPEAKER_00: It's a river and there's two other stories in there, right?
20:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which I don't remember the other stories.
20:09
One is U.S.
20:10
Forest Service 1919 and the other one is like a longer title
20:13
about...
20:15
something yeah one of them he tries to hike from Grave Peak
20:19
just south of here all
20:21
the way into the town of Hamilton and he doesn't drink any
20:24
water do you remember
20:25
this and he's trying to order food at the Chinese restaurant
20:29
and passes out on the
20:30
floor and it was his last day of work as a fire lookout which
20:36
at that time was a
20:36
SPEAKER_00: tent in
20:38
SPEAKER_00: On his walk back into town,
20:39
he was supposed to pick up all the phone lines and reattach
20:43
them to trees.
20:46
SPEAKER_00: And he tried to do it without drinking any water.
20:49
SPEAKER_00: Now,
20:50
SPEAKER_00: I think the fire lookout up there is now a building,
20:53
SPEAKER_00: but I think it's been closed for a long time.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: So, anyway.
20:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe a reason why that didn't get turned into a movie.
20:58
SPEAKER_01: No.
21:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it wasn't as great.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: It was more of a funny story than anything.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: Anyway,
21:10
so number three is a video you sent me that's just the sound of
21:16
a dial-up modem
21:17
SPEAKER_00: connecting to the internet.
21:19
SPEAKER_00: Circa, what, like 1995, 6, 7, 8, something like that?
21:25
Probably,
21:26
yeah,
21:26
maybe even like a little bit earlier than that,
21:28
probably like 90...
21:31
or something like that yeah dude I just remember being like
21:36
what is this like I
21:38
think it was like first it was like hooked up to like the like
21:42
our library at our
21:43
school I think or like the like there was like one computer
21:47
maybe two computers and
21:49
SPEAKER_01: it was like
21:52
SPEAKER_01: Prodigy, I think it would have been, was like the sort of gateway.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: And you're like, wait, what is this?
21:57
SPEAKER_01: And then we got it at home.
22:00
My dad was definitely interested in computers and an early
22:04
adopter of all that.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: So when we could, we had a modem.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: And I just remember just being like, that sound is earned into my memory.
22:13
SPEAKER_01: It's just like... You know, like the whole...
22:19
it's like I can't replicate it but I can hear it very clearly
22:25
and you know it's so
22:29
interesting because like I just remember going online and just
22:35
being like this is a
22:36
SPEAKER_01: whole other world and
22:39
and that's a you know like like you and I are of the age of
22:42
like we remember we're
22:44
like kind of a unique sort of small like sub generation of we
22:48
remember life before
22:50
the internet you know and and yeah there's like older people
22:53
that are like that too
22:54
I get it but it's like we were we both grew up with a world
22:58
without it and we
22:59
SPEAKER_01: started to grow up with a world in it and like
23:02
And it's like a pretty interesting thing where essentially
23:05
we're almost the same
23:06
SPEAKER_01: age as the internet.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: And we've gone through that.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: But at that moment in time, like as a teenager being like, what?
23:14
This is like,
23:15
you know,
23:15
I mean,
23:15
like once you're out of school,
23:17
it's at home.
23:17
SPEAKER_01: You're just like, I can like,
23:20
find this like weird recording like like it just had all the
23:23
things but at a really
23:25
small level of things you could be interested in in as a
23:28
teenager right it was I
23:31
mean to be blunt you could buy drugs on it you could you know
23:37
like obviously look
23:38
at dirty pictures but beyond that it was like rat you could
23:43
also download some
23:44
SPEAKER_01: bootleg
23:45
like show from somewhere or connect with other people or just
23:51
like it was like oh
23:52
this is a whole world out there and I think that it wasn't like
23:58
I wasn't into
23:59
coding or anything like that but it just for me was one of
24:02
those things where
24:04
Those things were like super related where I could kind of see
24:08
this is like more
24:09
SPEAKER_01: people are going to think this is cool.
24:11
SPEAKER_01: Like this isn't just for nerds.
24:14
SPEAKER_01: This is something that like will change everything we're doing.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: Can you hear that terrible sound?
24:19
SPEAKER_01: I've got like all sorts of great sounds for you today.
24:21
SPEAKER_01: You should leave them all in.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: Is it like a garbage truck?
24:25
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what a motorcycle or something.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, back to it.
24:31
um yeah there I like sometimes I wonder if like things had just
24:35
paused at a certain
24:36
level of progress as far as like if video only got so good if
24:42
like like where would
24:42
we be now as opposed to just being like I think before then
24:46
there was no like at
24:49
the time you and I grew up it was like waiting for an image to
24:52
load you probably
24:53
remember this on a dialogue oh my god forever forever it would
24:57
take seconds maybe
24:58
SPEAKER_00: up to a minute sometimes so and then
25:01
that was like the thing is like you had to have you had to be a
25:03
bored teenager
25:04
because you had to be super patient to like deal with any of it
25:08
right like even
25:09
just be on like a message board would be like oh it's gonna
25:12
take like 30 seconds
25:13
for a bunch of text to load here like it was it was nuts and
25:18
you had to have spare
25:19
SPEAKER_01: time you had to have free time in order to like
25:22
SPEAKER_01: Semi-Rad
25:44
SPEAKER_01: and be like, come on, man.
25:46
SPEAKER_01: And it would have them be like, and you have to refresh it.
25:49
SPEAKER_01: But it was that novel,
25:50
SPEAKER_01: even though I could go turn a TV on and be like,
25:53
SPEAKER_01: there's a moving image,
25:53
it was something about the fact that the moving image came over
25:56
the computer where
25:57
SPEAKER_01: I was like,
25:57
SPEAKER_01: that's wild.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: That's crazy.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: And...
26:01
SPEAKER_01: I dug it.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: In college, I was already starting to work on stuff online.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh, this is pretty neat.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: I was working as a writer doing print stuff as well, but certainly
26:17
yeah I mean even even in like high school I think I was like
26:20
finding like poetry
26:22
SPEAKER_01: stuff to like participate in or like there'd be like weird online poetry
26:26
competitions I mean please do not no one search any of that for
26:31
me please because I
26:31
don't want to see any of whatever I wrote is it possible it's
26:35
even still on there I
26:36
don't think I don't think so I think it was like so random but
26:39
like that was the
26:39
kind of thing we were like I mean I was like maybe a little bit
26:43
of a weird kid
26:44
SPEAKER_01: right like like
26:46
I spent a lot of time by myself let's put it that way and so to
26:49
be like there's
26:50
other people writing poetry online was kind of an awesome thing
26:54
to me so I'm going
26:56
with the sound of the 1990s dial-up modem yeah holy shit when
27:02
you got to college
27:03
and there was like lightning fast internet like you know I went
27:08
to the University
27:09
SPEAKER_01: of Washington too so it was like
27:11
Super cutting edge The gates There was a building named the
27:15
gates building They
27:16
were like yes we'll make this awesome You're like this This
27:19
freaking rocks Yeah
27:22
yeah um yeah so how did this was it I feel like knowing you a
27:28
little bit you are
27:29
pretty early adopter very curious about emerging technologies
27:34
and this is is this
27:35
your first experience with that where you're like I am this is
27:38
new and I am like
27:40
SPEAKER_00: able to discover it yeah yeah you're able to explore it in that way
27:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100%.
27:48
SPEAKER_01: That is like 100% my...
27:51
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: Like where you got the feeling that it was like kind of busted,
28:01
SPEAKER_01: didn't work that well,
28:03
SPEAKER_01: but it was like going to change the world.
28:08
SPEAKER_01: And...
28:10
I definitely felt that way you know and it wasn't like there
28:14
wasn't enough there to
28:16
like I wasn't the kind of person that was like I'm gonna be on
28:18
this message board
28:19
for 12 hours a day like there wasn't enough there but like I
28:22
definitely like
28:22
through those teenage years would like check in on it or like
28:25
you know when I would
28:25
get bored I'd go online and check stuff out but yeah yeah it
28:32
totally it totally
28:34
SPEAKER_01: kind of turned me on to that that idea that um
28:40
SPEAKER_01: There was like pretty,
28:41
SPEAKER_01: like when you kind of like looked a little further,
28:44
SPEAKER_01: there was pretty cool things going on in this world.
28:46
Or like when you didn't just do everything else that like
28:50
everyone else was doing,
28:51
SPEAKER_01: sometimes you would find things that were pretty cool.
28:54
So certainly like in terms of something that was like emerging
28:58
in our culture,
28:58
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
28:59
SPEAKER_01: I was like way into it.
29:00
And that for me,
29:01
like a lot of ways is like what the outdoors and like what
29:04
climbing was too.
29:05
SPEAKER_01: Because like when I started climbing,
29:07
you know certainly it wasn't like fringe the way it was in the
29:10
1970s or the 1960s
29:12
but it was it felt very radically different like like the the
29:18
idea of like you're
29:20
gonna live in a car and you're gonna move to Yosemite or you're
29:24
gonna go you know
29:26
basically just not do all the things you're supposed to do that
29:30
was like a pretty
29:31
SPEAKER_01: radical concept at that period of time and so for me it's like
29:37
SPEAKER_01: It's not even the technologies.
29:38
SPEAKER_01: It was like the emerging cultural trends.
29:42
SPEAKER_01: That was really pretty cool to me at that stage.
29:45
SPEAKER_01: So I felt like in a lot of ways the internet was there,
29:48
SPEAKER_01: but I found the sort of same thing in climbing in a lot of ways.
29:54
SPEAKER_01: You know?
29:56
and it's like they're still like this they're two huge parts of
30:00
my life to this day
30:02
you know and they're certainly no longer fringe at all but yeah
30:08
I was gonna say how
30:09
much technology has had to do with community for you it sounds
30:13
like is a big thing
30:15
yeah huge thing do you think you were aware of people living in
30:20
their cars being
30:21
dirtbags and climbing because of the internet or was that more
30:23
of a magazine thing
30:25
SPEAKER_00: at the time
30:27
SPEAKER_01: No, certainly not because of the internet.
30:31
SPEAKER_01: I was aware that that was an option maybe through the magazine.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: A lot of people my age, I went to some of the first climbing gyms ever.
30:43
SPEAKER_01: That was how I kind of stumbled into it.
30:46
I think I became aware of it probably just from hearing people
30:51
talk about it.
30:52
SPEAKER_01: maybe in the magazines at that stage.
30:54
SPEAKER_01: But I think more likely it was like, wait, you can go on a climbing trip?
30:59
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I knew what a road trip was.
31:05
SPEAKER_01: I freaking read the Dharma bums on the road or whatever at that stage.
31:10
SPEAKER_01: So I knew that there was something called a road trip,
31:13
SPEAKER_01: but the whole like,
31:14
SPEAKER_01: no,
31:14
SPEAKER_01: people go to the valley to go do this thing.
31:17
SPEAKER_01: That was totally...
31:20
That was a concept that was like pretty new to me that I think
31:24
I just heard about.
31:26
SPEAKER_01: And then certainly like the first time I took a trip like that,
31:29
SPEAKER_01: I was like,
31:29
SPEAKER_01: whoa,
31:30
SPEAKER_01: there are other people doing this too.
31:32
And there's actually like enough people doing this that I can
31:35
like find other
31:36
SPEAKER_01: people to climb with,
31:37
SPEAKER_01: which now is like laughable because you're like,
31:39
SPEAKER_01: there's too many people climbing.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: But like you could definitely go to a crag back that,
31:45
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:46
SPEAKER_01: back that time and be like,
31:47
SPEAKER_01: there is no one here.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: Like on a Tuesday, they'd be like, no, you're not going to find anyone.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: You know,
31:52
SPEAKER_01: in places where there's like always people now,
31:55
SPEAKER_01: like you could go there and be like,
31:57
SPEAKER_01: there's no one to climb with on a Tuesday.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:03
SPEAKER_00: Finding other weirdos, I think, is a big connecting with other weirdos.
32:08
SPEAKER_01: Is this the theme of this show?
32:10
SPEAKER_01: Finding other people's
32:13
SPEAKER_00: Theme of number three there, I think.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
32:17
SPEAKER_00: How many...
32:20
SPEAKER_00: So your next item is called The Gap by Ira Glass.
32:23
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: It's this snippet that has gone...
32:28
SPEAKER_00: It has many formats on the internet, and it's just a soundbite of his.
32:33
SPEAKER_01: It's almost like a recurring meme.
32:36
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's not a meme, but you know what I'm saying?
32:38
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of had these different lifespans on the internet where...
32:43
Every five years,
32:44
someone will kind of rediscover this quote from Ira Glass and
32:49
go from there.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: And certainly for me,
32:52
SPEAKER_01: like starting the Dirtbag Diaries,
32:53
like I have very clear recollections of like the first time I
32:58
heard This American
32:59
SPEAKER_01: Life.
33:01
SPEAKER_01: Can I interrupt you and have you explain what it is first?
33:05
SPEAKER_01: The Gap?
33:06
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
33:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: What he says it is.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: So the Gap is...
33:12
SPEAKER_01: It's so it's taken from this interview with Ira Glass.
33:16
So it's him basically talking to an interviewer and the
33:21
interviewers asked him kind
33:23
of like how he evolved as a creative and what advice he would
33:29
have for younger
33:30
SPEAKER_01: creatives.
33:32
basically Ira Glass says you get into this work because you
33:36
have killer taste on
33:37
some level like you have an opinion about what is good and what
33:41
is bad but there's
33:44
this big gap between your skill sets right and your sense of
33:48
taste and you're gonna
33:51
like basically you're gonna suck like he just says that out
33:54
loud like he's like
33:56
SPEAKER_01: you're gonna do a lot of bad work and it's gonna take you
34:01
SPEAKER_01: Semi-Rad
34:12
he was like basically is like that sounds sort of harsh but he
34:15
said it in this way
34:16
that was like kind of really comforting and loving where it's
34:19
like don't worry
34:20
about this like this is part of it is like this sucking is part
34:24
of it and the
34:26
creatives that make it they are stubborn enough to get through
34:30
this gap that
34:32
they're able to close it and it takes years it takes and it
34:35
requires doing a lot of
34:36
work and I mean the long and the short of it is like I think
34:39
it's like you could
34:40
SPEAKER_01: take
34:41
SPEAKER_01: that concept.
34:45
And it's this phrase that I think I've used a lot with our
34:47
whole team through time,
34:48
SPEAKER_01: through working with other creatives.
34:50
SPEAKER_01: It's just like, practice finishing.
34:53
SPEAKER_01: And at the loosest level, it's like,
34:57
SPEAKER_01: You know, perfect is the enemy of good.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: And your goal should be to do a lot of work,
35:02
SPEAKER_01: to do it obsessively,
35:04
SPEAKER_01: to stumble,
35:06
SPEAKER_01: fall,
35:07
SPEAKER_01: get back up,
35:08
SPEAKER_01: do it again,
35:09
SPEAKER_01: do it again.
35:10
And eventually you'll get to this spot where you're like
35:13
starting to close that
35:15
SPEAKER_01: gap,
35:16
SPEAKER_01: where the thing that
35:18
You imagined has been articulated or given shape to or you've
35:22
created through film
35:23
SPEAKER_01: or through music,
35:24
SPEAKER_01: whatever it is,
35:25
SPEAKER_01: right?
35:26
SPEAKER_01: And I remember,
35:27
I think I probably found that clip on This American Life's
35:32
website or a blog or
35:34
SPEAKER_01: something like that.
35:35
SPEAKER_01: It was like pretty early.
35:36
on in the whole thing um and then like like you said it like
35:40
then it kind of got
35:42
taken and then like animated into other things it's been
35:45
animated several times um
35:47
but it's this like powerful idea that has really had the
35:49
staying power through
35:51
through the through the last like 20 years realistically and
35:55
and that for me was
35:56
SPEAKER_01: like just at that moment in life I was probably you know I was like a
36:05
creating that and I mean I was like with the Dirtbag Diaries I
36:09
was like I kind of
36:10
felt myself like closing that gap at that moment in time like
36:14
I've been writing
36:15
professionally beforehand but I've been like I wrote a lot of
36:19
bad stuff too it's
36:20
stuff that I would be like oh god that's not good you know I'd
36:22
read it two weeks
36:23
later even and be like that's not good and I think the diaries
36:26
for me was this
36:27
SPEAKER_01: awesome experience of like
36:30
SPEAKER_01: Semi-Rad
36:44
SPEAKER_01: Semi-Rad
36:59
SPEAKER_01: Semi-Rad
37:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm not.
37:19
SPEAKER_01: I think I actually know what I'm doing.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't everyone like that.
37:25
SPEAKER_01: There were people that were super encouraging too.
37:27
SPEAKER_01: I don't mean to make it sound like that.
37:29
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't like everyone was against me.
37:30
But I do have specific memories of a couple people that were at
37:34
magazines like
37:35
SPEAKER_01: Outside and other titles being like,
37:41
you're kind of on to something but you're kind of not doing it
37:44
right and I remember
37:45
hearing that from them and be like you know I think I think I
37:51
have the confidence
37:51
now to be like my sense of taste is maybe more on point than
37:57
yours and that was a
37:59
huge thing and I know that sounds like a little bit
38:00
braggadocious but I'll just say
38:02
SPEAKER_01: it like
38:03
I was fucking right you know like I was like I was like right
38:07
about this is like
38:08
the thing I was doing mattered to people and it maybe mattered
38:12
in a way that to
38:15
people more than their magazine did and like that was pretty
38:20
cool and I think I
38:21
just challenged some of the assumptions of the day because it
38:24
like aligned with
38:24
this vision that I had and then I had this like really lucky
38:27
like it was like I
38:28
SPEAKER_01: applied hard work
38:30
I have some small modicum of talent but like I was lucky I was
38:35
like in the right
38:36
place at the right time to basically like follow this vision
38:40
and to be able to like
38:41
make money doing it because if I'd been any earlier I wouldn't
38:44
be able to make any
38:45
money and if I'd been later there would have been other people
38:49
but I was able to
38:49
SPEAKER_01: kind of
38:51
I don't know I just fit into the sweet spot like weird I mean
38:53
like honestly we're
38:54
like thinking about it as like I don't I don't know for sure
38:57
but it's kind of close
38:58
like I may have sold the first ad on a podcast and it's like I
39:04
don't I doubt that's
39:05
the case but it's it it could be true so like it's like that's
39:11
where I started so
39:14
SPEAKER_01: sorry everyone
39:17
SPEAKER_00: Maybe the first ad on an outdoor podcast for sure, right?
39:19
SPEAKER_00: Skip button, skip button, skip button.
39:21
SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
39:22
SPEAKER_00: Well, and, like, I think some of that are...
39:25
SPEAKER_00: I guess I would ask,
39:26
SPEAKER_00: like,
39:28
SPEAKER_00: were people who were,
39:29
SPEAKER_00: you know,
39:30
SPEAKER_00: sort of discouraging you looking at it from a perspective of...
39:34
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't even say that it was like, you need to stop.
39:35
SPEAKER_01: This is a bad idea.
39:37
It was kind of like they wanted to be like,
39:40
let me tell you how to do this better.
39:42
SPEAKER_01: Like, that was...
39:44
SPEAKER_01: That's what I got.
39:45
SPEAKER_01: I got a lot of that in the beginning.
39:49
SPEAKER_00: To me,
39:49
it just makes me think of music executives looking at Ian McKay
39:54
making his own
39:56
record label to put out Minor Threat and Fugazi Records and
40:01
doing everything
40:01
SPEAKER_00: himself and them probably being like,
40:03
SPEAKER_00: well,
40:04
SPEAKER_00: the sound quality is not that good.
40:05
SPEAKER_00: These songs don't have a pop hook at all.
40:08
SPEAKER_00: This is not going to go anywhere.
40:10
SPEAKER_00: The ethos of punk DIY...
40:13
you know in in sort of your just saying I think I'm just gonna
40:18
do this and it'll
40:19
find the right people and that may not make sense to you know
40:23
somebody who has a
40:24
big publication where they have to pay you know 20-30 salaries
40:27
or whatever yeah but
40:29
it makes sense to connect with people and tell stories yeah
40:33
totally and it like
40:36
it's so interesting on that because like the like that
40:41
do-it-yourself nature that's
40:42
SPEAKER_01: sort of like
40:44
creativity is like a weed that grows in the sidewalk crack like
40:47
it that shit can
40:48
grow anywhere and it like finds a way to find the sunlight and
40:52
that is like I think
40:53
what real creativity is actually is quite a bit like that is
40:58
pernicious it is
40:59
unstoppable it will like figure a way to grow and it doesn't
41:03
necessarily like it
41:04
may not be admired by many but it will figure like a way it'll
41:08
figure out how to
41:08
SPEAKER_01: grow you know and and I think that that is
41:11
like that was also the define that was what attracted me to the
41:14
internet is it had
41:14
that do-it-yourself quality back in the day too as well I think
41:19
that's what
41:19
connected me to climbing and it had that do-it-yourself mode
41:23
and it was just like
41:25
all of it it just like all it it's that's the cool part about
41:30
it is like when you
41:31
feel that when you have that in your life it is just it is
41:35
relentless like there is
41:36
SPEAKER_01: a will for that to get out into the world even if it's
41:42
Done in situations which are maybe not hospitable,
41:46
but it figures a way out.
41:48
SPEAKER_01: And that is cool.
41:51
SPEAKER_00: Where would you say you are on the taste gap nowadays?
41:55
SPEAKER_00: Have you closed it some?
41:57
SPEAKER_00: Can you ever completely close it?
41:59
SPEAKER_00: Or does your taste keep changing?
42:01
SPEAKER_01: No, I don't think you can totally, I don't think you can fully close it.
42:04
SPEAKER_01: You know,
42:04
SPEAKER_01: there are,
42:05
SPEAKER_01: there are,
42:06
SPEAKER_01: I am like notoriously,
42:07
SPEAKER_01: I don't love revisiting work that I've done in the past.
42:12
SPEAKER_01: Like it just,
42:13
it just produces emotions in me a lot of times and they're
42:16
oftentimes the emotions
42:17
SPEAKER_01: I don't love.
42:20
SPEAKER_01: But I do, I do revisit things and I will be like, oh, that's good.
42:24
SPEAKER_01: Not everything I make, for sure.
42:27
But I think I still just keep that mantra of being like,
42:29
I'm going to practice finishing.
42:31
SPEAKER_01: And there's more stuff I want to do.
42:33
SPEAKER_01: And there's stuff that I'm intimidated by.
42:36
SPEAKER_01: And I know I'm intimidated by it.
42:39
I know there's still like there's things there's projects that
42:42
I'm like this is
42:42
it's either gonna take me like having to like reorganize my
42:45
life to make that
42:46
happen which is scary or it's gonna be challenging which is
42:48
scary or it's like
43:04
it's like just so unknown whether anyone will even find it
43:08
which is also scary
43:09
which is like to me is scary now at this point in my life where
43:12
I'm like oh I want
43:13
an audience you know I don't I I don't want to be the random
43:20
blade of grass busting
43:21
up through the sidewalk all the time like there is a side of me
43:25
that that that
43:26
SPEAKER_01: cares about the audience and and I mean it in like a
43:31
like less of like I need the attention I mean it in the sense
43:34
of being like my
43:37
expectation is if I make something someone's gonna feel it or
43:41
hear it or read it or
43:44
whatever it is and I don't I don't like it when it doesn't work
43:48
it's like you're
43:51
SPEAKER_00: you want potential connections with people yeah yeah yeah
43:57
yeah okay number five one of the most famous one of the most
44:02
famous bears books
44:04
SPEAKER_00: about bears yeah in in the world Winnie the Pooh by A.A.
44:08
Milne yeah this is a children's book you what's what brought
44:17
this to what makes
44:18
this number five on your list as opposed to all the other
44:20
children's books you
44:21
SPEAKER_00: probably have read your kids over the past yeah
44:25
yeah well I think it's like there's this I don't know if you if
44:31
you or anyone
44:31
listening has ever had a chance to like read those books out
44:35
loud to a kid but they
44:38
were like they were for a while they were kind of like the
44:40
staple in our household
44:42
SPEAKER_01: for both my boys and they're kind of they're kind of a
44:48
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of like this weird gobbledygook in those books.
44:52
Like the actual syntax and structure of them is kind of like
44:55
really strange and really bizarre.
44:57
SPEAKER_01: And they, you have to perform them.
44:59
SPEAKER_01: Like they are this thing where it's like, you have to engage.
45:01
SPEAKER_01: You can't just sort of mind.
45:02
Like if you're tired,
45:04
you're not going to succeed at reading AA Millen out loud to a
45:08
kid.
45:09
SPEAKER_01: Like they'll know.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: And it's like,
45:10
SPEAKER_01: you have to sort of,
45:11
SPEAKER_01: there's like this sort of element that the actual language of the thing,
45:14
SPEAKER_01: um,
45:16
SPEAKER_01: Demands.
45:17
SPEAKER_01: And these stories are kind of, they're very simple.
45:19
SPEAKER_01: They're very there.
45:19
SPEAKER_01: And so I've read them a lot.
45:21
And I remember like the first time,
45:22
The House at Pooh Corner,
45:24
this is the last chapter of it.
45:25
SPEAKER_01: And you've just read like,
45:27
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
45:27
SPEAKER_01: 250 pages of like this like weird sing-songy gobbly book where
45:31
like there's like some plot but not really like it's just these
45:35
like animals having
45:36
some interactions with each other that are kind of insane and
45:39
just there's just not
45:41
it's like it's not like reading Harry Potter it's not like
45:43
reading like Charlotte's
45:45
Web like there's just this it's it's sort of strange but then
45:50
all of a sudden
45:51
you're sitting there and I have this like such this clear
45:53
memory of being in my
45:54
SPEAKER_01: son's you know like room probably like
45:57
either maybe like curled up next to him in the bed or like on
46:01
the chair next to him
46:02
and I've like done this whole bit and I get to this end of this
46:06
book and I won't
46:08
read the whole thing but it's basically he's talking you know
46:13
throughout this whole
46:13
book that the river's there like they cross the bridge they
46:16
throw sticks and into
46:17
the whole thing and it's like in the background there's this
46:20
concept of a river and
46:24
SPEAKER_01: A.
46:25
SPEAKER_01: A.
46:25
Milne writes this thing he says by the time it comes to the
46:28
edge of the forest the
46:29
stream had grown up so that it was almost a river and being
46:33
grown up it did not run
46:35
and jump and sparkle long as it used to do when it was younger
46:39
but it moved more
46:40
slowly for it knew now where it was going and it said to itself
46:46
there is no hurry
46:48
SPEAKER_01: we shall get there someday
46:52
and I read those lines and I just start weeping because like on
46:57
a level that's you
47:00
know like this is a discussion of like time is temporary our
47:06
time here is finite
47:08
it's nothing it's like nothing is guaranteed and I think in
47:13
that moment in my life
47:15
SPEAKER_01: like I was
47:17
SPEAKER_01: juggling a lot of things, you know, especially with my career.
47:21
Like there was like I had a lot of success and there was like,
47:25
what direction do you go?
47:26
SPEAKER_01: What do you care about, right?
47:29
SPEAKER_01: Do you care about money?
47:30
SPEAKER_01: Do you carry about like care about fame, right?
47:35
SPEAKER_01: Popularity, like what is it?
47:37
SPEAKER_01: And at that moment,
47:38
like I would say that I had this instinct of like a lot of what
47:42
was happening was
47:43
SPEAKER_01: carrying me farther and farther away from home.
47:47
and those were those were good things but it was like is that
47:51
what I'm after like
47:52
at the root of it like my creativity my career my pathway like
47:58
it needs to work for
47:59
this greater idea of a destination of like what I wanted it to
48:04
be versus wanting
48:06
like other people wanting it for me if that makes sense and and
48:10
I you know I think
48:11
SPEAKER_01: sometimes there's
48:13
Like there's one person I interact on business stuff with and I
48:16
always sort of
48:17
SPEAKER_01: start our conversations with and I'm like,
48:19
SPEAKER_01: I apologize for the lack of ambition at this stage of my life.
48:23
SPEAKER_01: Like I'll be like, I don't really like, I'm sorry.
48:28
SPEAKER_01: Like I know I should be more ambitious than this.
48:30
SPEAKER_01: Like this would be better.
48:31
SPEAKER_01: But like I know how to, I'm capable of seeing how one might
48:36
you know do these things to become you know more well known or
48:41
whatever it's just
48:42
like I don't really care and I think that this book that moment
48:46
in that book kind
48:47
of reads back to this moment of being like I have this like
48:50
finite amount of time
48:51
SPEAKER_01: with my people right and
48:56
I just knew that I had to make a change that I shouldn't be
49:00
gone six months out of
49:01
the year that I needed to be closer to this experience that I
49:05
had with Becca my
49:06
wife the love of my life my two boys as they were growing with
49:12
my community with my
49:13
friends and I didn't want to be I didn't want to be famous I
49:19
didn't care about
49:19
SPEAKER_01: being rich I didn't need to be in demand all the time
49:26
I needed to be a dad and I needed to be me and I needed to
49:31
spend time outside and I
49:33
needed to spend time with the people I cared about the most and
49:36
that kind of meant
49:39
I wouldn't have the dopest Instagram feed or I wouldn't you
49:43
know be hosting a show
49:45
on the streamer or whatever right it's like I think that that
49:49
moment for me that
49:51
SPEAKER_01: book that piece of media
49:53
it was it defined my why and that is one of the most important
49:58
things we can do as
50:00
humans is define that why I remember like this really clear um
50:06
I ran the the
50:07
Chuckanut 50k you're a runner too you know you know that and
50:10
like I like run a
50:11
SPEAKER_01: little bit like I love running I've run run kind of my whole life um
50:18
SPEAKER_01: And I ran this race up in Washington, Chuckanuck 50K.
50:21
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like this classic trail run.
50:25
SPEAKER_01: And it is in March.
50:26
SPEAKER_01: And last year when they ran it,
50:28
SPEAKER_01: it was like the worst possible weather day that you could run it.
50:32
SPEAKER_01: And I didn't stay up there.
50:34
SPEAKER_01: I was like driving from Seattle.
50:35
SPEAKER_01: It's an hour and a half drive.
50:36
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like on I-5 and it's like snowing.
50:42
on i5 and it's sideways and then it's like sideways raining and
50:45
you're just like
50:46
this is it just you know in that moment I'm driving I'm like
50:50
dude you need you're
50:52
gonna need to figure out why you're doing this today like
50:57
you're gonna like like
50:58
clearly like you're about to go out and this is gonna be
51:01
heinous like and at some
51:03
point like you're gonna need to know why you're doing this to
51:09
get through this and
51:12
I like remember being very clearly in the car driving and it's
51:16
like it's such a for
51:18
me that thing was like it was so simple it was just like I just
51:21
want to say I ran
51:22
and like that's shorthand for saying like I just want to say in
51:26
life that I tried
51:28
really hard and that I think you know like like that memory of
51:34
coming back to being
51:35
in the boys room reading those lines and just sort of being
51:37
like I kind of need to
51:40
SPEAKER_01: build
51:41
SPEAKER_01: towards that truer version of why, what I'm doing in my life.
51:47
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like I have.
51:49
SPEAKER_01: It didn't happen overnight, but it's like I'm here.
51:53
SPEAKER_01: I'm present.
51:55
SPEAKER_01: I do all these things that are not cool, but they are so cool.
52:01
SPEAKER_01: And I found myself surrounded more and more by other people who
52:08
SPEAKER_01: Like we might, it sounds so weird.
52:10
SPEAKER_01: It's like they're just leading very normal lives, right?
52:17
Like they're not this like crazy version of some of the people
52:20
that we all call friends,
52:22
right?
52:23
SPEAKER_01: But they are doing something incredible.
52:25
SPEAKER_01: And it's like they show up and like whatever it is they do, they run.
52:32
SPEAKER_01: And
52:34
they it's it's awesome and I find that like volunteering at my
52:38
kids school I find
52:40
that just like being in the community here in Seattle and it's
52:43
so it's like we're
52:47
never gonna do make a film about that we're never gonna make a
52:50
podcast about that
52:51
SPEAKER_01: but that like at the heart of it was like
52:55
I just want to say that when I get done with this that I ran
53:00
that I tried that I
53:03
like kind of put in not maximal it sounds like not maximal
53:09
effort all the time
53:10
because like that's not that's not sustainable that's not
53:13
that's not real but that
53:14
like when there were the moments that like I gave and I was
53:21
here and I did it and
53:23
SPEAKER_01: that for me is like
53:25
that's my like why it's like I just want to say I ran I just
53:28
want to say like I was
53:30
there and I did the thing and the time doesn't matter like that
53:35
the speed of it the
53:38
whether anyone else cared about it that doesn't really matter
53:42
and I think that that
53:43
that that house on Pooh Corner just kind of illuminated that
53:48
for me and you know I
53:51
SPEAKER_00: think it's like not that I was a bad dad before but
53:54
I think I've grown into being a really good dad and it's like I
54:01
can feel that I can
54:02
feel that this whole thing is a river and it I you know like I
54:07
used to like be that
54:10
like little rapid that moved and was super dynamic all the time
54:14
and I feel this
54:15
growing level of like peace that's sort of come into me as I've
54:21
aged and it's
54:22
SPEAKER_01: freaking awesome like
54:24
and it's sad because like you know it's like I mean I'm
54:28
certainly got plenty of
54:28
time left but like for whatever reason I can see the end you
54:33
know I know the
54:34
destination and I think that there's just this been this
54:39
overwhelming need to savor
54:43
the moments of it along the way and I have like it's been
54:48
awesome like my eyes are
54:49
SPEAKER_01: really open and I think that that book was a part of it
54:55
and that's kind of that's pretty cool if I'm if I'm like
55:00
understanding your point
55:01
correctly it was just saying that did I make it I hope I made
55:05
some sense like
55:07
rambling because I think what it means to me is that like you
55:10
know your kids aren't
55:11
going to be this age forever I think about it all the time like
55:14
this kid's going to
55:14
be three three for one year and we're and we're not going to be
55:18
this age all like
55:20
SPEAKER_01: we're like it's like
55:23
all like all of it it's our parents like like all like it just
55:27
going through this
55:27
whole this whole thing is like got it you know there's like I
55:31
mean I could have
55:32
named Ferris Bueller's Day Off but it's like if you don't take
55:35
a moment right yeah
55:38
right look around every once in a while you know and I think it
55:41
was like I don't
55:41
want to look around every once in a while I want to look around
55:43
all the time
55:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
55:45
SPEAKER_00: And there's like a spectrum of dad was present.
55:49
SPEAKER_00: Dad was consistent.
55:50
SPEAKER_00: Dad was maybe kind of boring.
55:52
And then on the other end of the spectrum is dad did all this
55:55
cool adventurous
55:55
SPEAKER_00: stuff,
55:56
SPEAKER_00: but he was never around.
55:58
SPEAKER_00: And you kind of want to figure out where, what works for everybody.
56:02
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like at the point myself where I'm like,
56:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
56:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm just really happy just playing with cars on the floor on weekends,
56:09
SPEAKER_00: you know,
56:09
SPEAKER_00: if that's what my kid wants to do.
56:10
SPEAKER_00: But at the same time,
56:11
maybe I should do a couple things per year so my kid knows that
56:14
I did do some cool
56:15
SPEAKER_00: stuff.
56:16
SPEAKER_00: But like, I don't need to be gone for like three weeks at a time.
56:19
SPEAKER_01: I feel similarly like I had to like kind of like readjust.
56:23
SPEAKER_01: The knob swung really extreme in one direction for a moment,
56:27
SPEAKER_01: you know,
56:27
SPEAKER_01: and then I was like,
56:28
I think maybe this knob could kind of get adjusted back ever so
56:32
slightly where it's
56:32
SPEAKER_01: like,
56:34
I yeah like I don't need to like always say to myself like oh
56:37
well I'll do that
56:38
once the kids are out of the house or something like that's
56:41
that's not the way it's
56:41
like you but you have to identify like what do you really want
56:44
to do and what
56:44
sounds awesome and then you should go do it but yeah just
56:48
because like you're on
56:49
some never-ending kick of like I'm doing this cool thing and
56:53
this cool thing and
56:54
these people think this is cool like that I just yeah I got off
56:58
that train yeah
57:00
SPEAKER_00: yeah
57:02
um man that's fantastic this is such a great place to end it
57:06
you know what I knew
57:07
you would nail this I knew you'd I knew you'd nail it well it
57:12
was a fun assignment
57:14
yeah man thanks so much for doing it yeah totally my pleasure
57:18
thanks for having me