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Caregiver Stories and Autism Advocacy: How Invictus Bakery Is Changing Autism Employment with Molly Sebastian · Inchstones with Sarah | Autism Advocacy & Caregiver Stories

• 0:01
  Speaker A: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the latest episode of the Inchstones podcast. I am thrilled today to have Milly Sebastian here of the Invictus Bakery. This is obviously not just any bakery. When you combine the fact that she and I were brought together by a mutual friend who is such a deep ally and advocate for children like Milly and mine, non speaking autistic individuals, it is of no surprise that Milly is taking the world by storm in her mission and it is an honor to have her here today on the Inchtons podcast. Milly thank you so much for being here today.
• 0:40
  Speaker B: Thank you for having us. He's in there. Yes.
• 0:43
  Speaker A: There he is. I love it. So, Milly you have a daughter named Ava, and I would love to hear more about Ava tied into your story and your why in the founding of Invictus Bakery. And I know that you began in Brooklyn, but I do believe you guys are branching out, so we've got a lot to cover.
• 1:01
  Speaker B: Yes. So ava is now 17 years old. She is a minimally speaking person on the autism spectrum and we have since discovered spelling to communicate. But I, before that I didn't realize that she could read or write. And so I'm a worrier by nature. So I knew that she was in her school program and that the services would cover her until age 22. But around seven years old, I started to think, okay, what are we going to do here? Because she wasn't able to have a back and forth conversation, I believed that she understood everything and I knew that she wanted to be productive and she wanted to be task oriented. So again, because I'm a warrior and this was seven years old, I thought, you know, okay, we have however many years till 22 and she's out into the world with no real possibilities for her profile. That is at least what I thought at the time. So I was a reality TV show producer. And so part of that is one
• 1:56
  Speaker A: R in New York.
• 1:57
  Speaker B: Right, right, exactly. So part of that is, you know, just not being afraid of, of piloting and coming up with a proof of concept and being okay with not knowing the answers. So that was sort of my mentality. And then knowing that Ava had a very expensive strawberry habit, and I thought, okay, how can we, what can we do with that expensive strawberry habit? So I brought in someone that could teach her how to cut with a knife, which my husband thought was dicey, but, you know, a lot of our kids have very amazing muscle memory, so taught her how to do that. And then we just came up with this proof of concep of like, can we do something productive together. So we created this little micro enterprise called Ava K's Super Smart Strawberry, Strawberry and Chocolate Jam. And we sold on street fairs in one summer, you know, whatever, when she was seven years old. So we found a couple of street fairs, the places that didn't require a lot of red tape. And we would just show up, she and I and the dog, and we would start selling. And, you know, I think that the. The biggest thing then was just how people were. They just wanted to know the story like they, they wanted to help, they wanted. There was so much goodwill. And that is really what made me think, okay, maybe there's something here to sustain this.
• 3:16
  Speaker A: You know, it's the resonating thing that I love in sharing stories like yours. But then I hear you right now. There is something so luxurious about a mother who believes in their child, and I use that word very with much, with so much intent. It is a luxury to sit in the position as a mother to children who are atypical. Let's just, in a broad sense and to deeply believe that there is a depth of humanity in that child and is willing to sit with the uncomfortable nature of trying something new, but aligning it with things that, like you said, her very expensive strawberry habit. Right. And that combination, I think is what again is like this magic sauce for a lot of parents of children with autism. Those of us that sit maybe more on the, on the more severe end is that finding those ways to connect and then realizing that's just a launch point. Right?
• 4:08
  Speaker B: So.
• 4:09
  Speaker A: So this is how it started. So you went to these little fairs. How did we get. How did we get to Invictus in ten years later?
• 4:16
  Speaker B: So I teamed up with my dear friend who is an autism educator, Allison Myers, and I was on the board of her school at the time. She founded an autism school and was really the first person when Ava was very young that looked at Ava and thought, okay, she what can she do versus like counting all the deficits and taking data on all the issues. She really just saw her in this light of what can we do? And she taught Ava how to swim and we became fast friends. And so we co founded together again, just a pilot. Let's take this idea, this proof of concept. Let's see what happens if we start a class. She had like a faithful following of students and that was it. Our very first product were dog treats for lots of reasons. And we started out of a rental kitchen in Manhattan one day a week with like maybe five or six bakers. And so that was our starting place. And you know, there was a lot of fear at the time, even for myself included, definitely lots of family fears of we're in this commercial kitchen, this place is the real deal, there are flames and knives on the wall. And mostly we had minimal and non speaking profile bakers families had a lot of concerns like my child isn't going to be able to do the class for three hours or four hours. And keep in mind I had the same concerns. Right. So that was really what started and from there, you know, it was truly an experiment and a bit of a gamble to see what would happen if we were in this commercial space. And each day, each week, each class, we would always have to sort of raise the bar because everything that they were asked to do, they had no problem doing. So fast forward now, I don't know if you want to fast forward all
• 6:01
  Speaker A: the way, but let's pause right there for a second because I have a great like thing I want to talk about. You talk about this fear, this parental panic that was like there's no way that XYZ is going to sit here and learn for three hours and then, and then the next time go implement it and grow. Because there is a conditioned response that we as parents are so fearful of. What if they can, though? What if they can? And I was talking to, and I know that you follow who I'm going to mention next, Kai Dickens of the telepathy tapes. And she talks about the fear of the parents before their child would fly to be interviewed for the telepathy tapes or participate in an experiment. And how it's sometimes that paralyzing nature of like there's no way. They can't even cross the street without me holding their hand. How are we going to get in an airplane for, for across the country with all these sensory inputs and what she brought up and I, and you spoke to this so beautifully just now, is that it's incredible what they can do when they know you believe they can do it full stop. And I think that your example right there is going to make me cry because it just, it speaks to that. It's that give me the chance and I'm going to show you that I can. It's just incredible.
• 7:11
  Speaker B: Yeah. And I think especially when we're talking about the minimal and the non speakers, we have the full profile, we like to say, so we have bakers that maybe live independently and then we have bakers like my daughter's profile. But all of them really have been, you know, just underestimated. And so the first thing we do when a baker comes into the program, we've always done this from day one, is we say, we know how smart you are and we want to train you to work. And we're not. We don't want to underestimate you. I think in the early days, especially, we still do this. But in the early days, it was so purposeful that it was almost how I would channel my anger. You know, I would get an email from school or something would happen on an IEP, which one of her goals on one of her IEPs was to put on her chapstick. And I thought, like what? So I would always try to take that, you know, because I know there are all kinds of reasons, and I'm not trying to badmouth anybody, but I would take those things, my rage, really, or my anger, and I would just try to channel. And so that's where it came from. Just our belief, and especially with the minimal and the non speakers, we really believed. And now I know for sure, because of spelling, to communicate that they're inside of there, and not only are they in there, they're running circles around the rest of us. That's what I believe. So in the early days, too, we knew that we needed. The reason we're product based is because we knew that we needed to tie what can look like chaos, right, to something tangible. Because the classes, you know, people are moving around and it's noisy and people are stimming and all kinds of things are going on. And, you know, I think if you're there, especially as a visitor, that's what you're focused on. And it's really important at the end of the shift to show, yeah, here's the, like, beautiful, tangible product that they're selling to Zabars, you know, or wherever.
• 9:01
  Speaker A: Yeah, I think, you know, yeah. And that kind of brings me to the next point, is that Invictus Bakery is not just talking about these inclusion experiences. It's creating actual, real work with a real product. And, you know, paid employment is such an important part of your model. It sounds like it is.
• 9:20
  Speaker B: So we started realizing also that our bakers were, you know, training, training, reaching proficiency. In any other program, you train and then someone hires you and you're dispatched and you go off into the world. That does not happen with our bakers. And in the few cases with the folks that need fewer supports, let's say, or do have spoken language, they'll get jobs and they will return to us. For reasons, you know, employers, there's not A lot of grace out there for our community. If I, if I'm honest and so talented, bakers will come back to us and say, you know, it didn't work out because I asked the same question too many times. You know, it's, it's an unforgiving world. Right. So we came up with our own in house certification. It's called hire me. You can work towards certification of our product. That means that you can complete an order from prep through packaging on your own. Once you're certified, then you're eligible for paid shift work. And then, you know, this is another idea that everybody said, this will never work. This is a crazy idea. Now we have some of the world's biggest companies, let's say Morgan Stanley, let's say they want to order 200 cupcakes. They'll order the cupcakes, but they'll also pay for the certified baker's shift to make the cupcakes. And the deal is that we manage the workforce. So that's how that's been our workaround.
• 10:43
  Speaker A: Well, again, and you're showing the evolution of the process on this and this being an idea that comes to not only a product fruition, but a process fruition too. And that the bakers that come back to you, maybe that, like you said, maybe experience the scary, very tough, harsh reality, sometimes can come back, share that and continue to learn about their own sense of dignity and contribution and being truly known. And it does, it does surface like a higher level thought, which is that not every place is for everyone. And I think being truly known in a place has such deep value for the person, person that's inside of each of us, especially those of us that have children that are minimal or non speakers.
• 11:26
  Speaker B: I think it's maybe lonely, at least this is what they describe some of them. It's lonely to be the only disabled person or the only autistic person in an otherwise, you know, neurotypical workforce. It's so, I don't know if people still use the term, but it's a bit of like reverse inclusion. So it's very integrated, it's open to everyone in the public. But it happens to be a lot
• 11:46
  Speaker A: of autistic bakers, is, it's hire me. Is that correct?
• 11:50
  Speaker B: Yes, yes.
• 11:51
  Speaker A: Yeah. Like, I wonder if, like, do you have any hope beyond it just being in an inside and I guess, touche. Baked into invictus?
• 11:59
  Speaker B: I mean, absolutely. So we came up with this workaround, but we know that if we really want to move the needle on employment, employers need to Start hiring our folks. My personal thought is I would love to see hiring in pods, if that's possible, so not just one person. And then I just think there has to be so much education on the employer. And to me, these like, things that, that keep our bakers out of a workforce are so, in my opinion, trivial a lot of times. I mean, so what, that they're not making eye contact or don't say thank you? I mean, I have managed a lot of teams and I find our workforce to be just so. I'm so spoiled from getting to work with them because first of all, the word is the word. You know, you say the sentence and we're always like, we're looking up here, we're looking down here. We never take it. What does she really mean? Right?
• 12:52
  Speaker A: Oh, my gosh, it's so true. It's so true. It's like there's a grounded nature in like, truth and reality that my children gave me, you know, just by being who they are. But the, but the skill that I learned is that I just take it. It just is like things just are. And we've created world around us sometime that, that actually, I think cause actually much more confusion than there than. But then the direct. And the direct nature can be seen as uncomfortable. It's almost completely flipped if you, if you really boil it down, like, let's just say it and move on.
• 13:26
  Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. So that is just like a. It's a. It's a privilege. It's a joy. It's just a. To me, it's. I am so happy being in a workspace with. With the autistic bakers.
• 13:38
  Speaker A: So. So you, you mentioned that you're get major companies to come in and place orders. How did that look like for your team? Was that something that Ava and. And the other employees were part of, or was that really the vision that you were taking hold of to market and advertise? I know that your. Your first location is in Brooklyn, correct?
• 13:58
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 13:59
  Speaker A: No, go ahead.
• 14:01
  Speaker B: You know, I mean, again, it just sort of like stumbled into this. So we always give our landlord, who's our dear friend, says, I haven't done anything, but. But we're on that beautiful block in the heart of Park Slope, Brooklyn, around the corner from the Barclays Center. You know, every single employment partner that we have, you know, Bain and Salesforce and JetBlue, we have big employment partners. Every single name that I, that I mentioned is someone that wandered into our space, truly and said, what is this? And the thing about all of this and Our conversation is none of this mat. None of this could work if the bakers weren't the real deal, if they weren't truly talented. So when people come into the space I love, again, I think this is the background of schools and never kind of knowing what was going on. We love welcoming people in and saying, like, here, come table to table, meet the baker. Ask any questions. And so that is, that's the selling point. And so when people walk into the space, when you're in a bustling area, which is really great just for the visibility, I feel so strongly that storefront, if possible, is the way to shift a narrative. And then again, so much community support.
• 15:12
  Speaker A: Yeah, I think you're right is that, you know, I. I lived in New York for, you know, around 10 years. And I think that one of the things when I moved to the suburbs of, you know, in of New Jersey, I forgot how much my foot traffic informed me of what I was taking in in the world. And that's such the beautiful part about your y' all being in Brooklyn for sure is that that wandering that is so natural in the neighborhood, the area is such a part of why this resonates because you can wander in and you can take it in from a storefront. And that's the cool again, you know, I'm obviously you live, you live there. I lived there for a while. I. That's one of the best things I love about the community in New York and that the sense of community, whether 8 million people plus it still has that one on one feeling from any store that you wander into.
• 15:58
  Speaker B: Definitely. And our little block also. And we have the same thing in our second location. You know, just the neighbors know, the Bakers, it's somebody's birthday. It really is. It's beautiful. It's beautiful to be included and integrated that way. It's the way it should be.
• 16:16
  Speaker A: What would a day to day look like? This is what I was going to ask you next. What would like so morning happens. How many employees do you have right now? And what does that look like from a leadership standpoint, even within those employees?
• 16:29
  Speaker B: Oh my gosh. Is sometimes it's is bustling. I mean, it is just bustling. It's a small, compact little bakery on Bergen street. And the second location we could talk about in a minute. But so it's bustling. I mean, we have anywhere from like 10 to 12 bakers and then we have our team as well. So it's, you know, probably about 20 people in the space sometimes like once a month. We welcome corporate volunteers. So then we've got a lot of people in the space. And, you know, people. Some people are training, some people are taking just the classes. And then some people are filling order. Always people are filling orders in the back. And then you've got the person doing the dishwashing who is also on the spectrum and deliveries. And so it really feels like this bustling ecosystem. And for as bustling as it is, it is very orderly. And because they come in, they look at what they're. They look at the whiteboard, they look at what their job is and they get to work. And if we have any kind of an issue, really, it's that, you know, saying, like, you need to take a break. You know, you've been working for four hours, like, take your lunch break. But really a workforce. And we have all kinds of. Just like any business. So we're constantly carving out new jobs. We have brand ambassadors who go to some of the corporations and talk about our mission. We have, you know, dishwashers and delivery people. We have recently, which I love this. It's baker to instructor pathway. So bakers who are on the spectrum who then become instructors, including we're training one of our minimal speakers to be an instructor, which is awesome.
• 18:09
  Speaker A: So fantastic. Again, it sounds like there's so many different pathways to take once they get the opportunity. And I think that's what I was so drawn to when I heard your story through our mutual friend. But why it works and why it continues to grow is that it's formulated on the fact of this deep belief that they can do it. And I love what you said about the break because good Lord knows, my daughter. My daughter Milly would bead on like pony beads and pipe cleaners, like, almost to the. To. To the point where, like, there, there'd be an. Like she'd fill an entire Taylor Swift tour stadium, you know? Right. Because she wouldn't stop. There's no reason for her to stop. So we, we mentioned before your. Your. Your primary location is in Brooklyn. Talk to us about what's happening next and how it's growing.
• 18:53
  Speaker B: So it may. Almost a year. Almost a year ago, we launched our second location and it is the spel. So this is really focused on the non speakers and the minimal speakers who spell or type to communicate. My daughter is a speller. Again, we did not. My husband and I didn't know she could read or write. We were introduced to spelling four years ago and, you know, now we're blown away. Now she's. Not only can she read and write. She's bossing us around. It's really amazing to think about these spellers because in many ways, they've been robbed of an education, so it's amazing how they even know what they know, which is really fascinating. So bakery is just for the spellers, and it's to reframe them as entrepreneurs and thought leaders because, you know, I think maybe you and I take for granted that we get to create things. We get to create things. You want to create a website, you want a podcast. I just can't imagine not all the things that they're not able to do because of society and. And then on top of it, you. You can't create. So that's really what. What. What it's about. It's about many things, but it's about reframing them.
• 20:02
  Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, my children are both very early in on their spell to communicate journey. They do receive it at their school, which is phenomenal. It's amazing. And we can chat more offline about that. But what. What do you think? This is not about the bakery. I mean, what. As Ava began spelling, you know, what changed for you? Like, not just practically, but emotionally, because I think the heart of this. And again, this being your second location, focusing on that as someone who's new to this journey and seeing what they are possible of with their. With their facilitator. It is. I mean, it. It truly takes my breath away. So can you tell us about that journey for you, for you and with Ava?
• 20:39
  Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, you know, I just. This. I really never saw coming. Um, and it's. It's incredible. And even though we're like four years into the spelling, or maybe almost five, and you know, she is proficient on the letterboard and the keyboard.
• 20:54
  Speaker A: That's amazing.
• 20:56
  Speaker B: But still, still, you know, I'm. And I'm not. I'm not proud to say this. Like, I'm finally, I will say, getting to the place where now I know what the insides are. Right? Because the outside still, she'll repeat the same phrase or you know, again that the definitely the insides don't match the outsides. Right. And so this idea that, oh, my gosh, this is this like, smart, funny, really sassy kid inside of there, you know, it's just. It's incredible. And now almost like she's so wise. She and I think her spellers. So she's in a spelling program. We're very lucky to be in a Monday through Friday spelling program. And the highlight of my whole life is at the end of each Day they upload their transcripts. So it makes me emotional. So I get to read. I get to read what they all say. And I know their personalities now. Like, this one is, you know, funny. This one is like cosmic, this one. So I look forward to it so much. And they're just so full of wisdom and knowledge. And so I feel that way about Ava too. And if anything, now it's like I have to remind myself, okay, she's 17 years old. Don't go to her for like guidance. Right. Like she's a kid.
• 22:10
  Speaker A: Well, that is so true. I mean, they do, I think when you kind of cross that threshold of understanding that they hold such wisdom and knowledge about unconditional love and the heart that and soul of what makes them tick. You know, having a boy and a girl sometimes I. With the same exact sort of profile. I laugh constantly over the fact that there are some things that are so painfully girl and boy, and these are children that do not speak, have wild, deep apraxia and dyspraxia behaviors and issues and comorbidities and all these things. Yet at the end of the day, my Milly the second daughter, the middle child, she is so painfully the middle. It's almost like no matter how she can't communicate or how she does, that little girl is so typically middle. She doesn't give a flying F. Sometimes just like a typical middle child, she's just doing her thing. And my son is going to sob his eyes out when I leave because he's a damn baby. He's the baby brother and he is such a mama's boy. And I'm like, because he's the baby of two of her sisters. That's not because he's autistic. That's not because he can't talk. It's literally because you cannot run away from the mother. Most basic primal things that these children as they're evolving. And I love hearing you said about Ava, like, you have to remind yourself, like, she's a 17 year old girl. She's a 17 year old girl who's gonna be sassy to her mom. Like she's going to you in your place.
• 23:30
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 23:31
  Speaker A: And so that, that typical response sometimes in a atypical presenting child does create this like, mismatch. Sometimes it has to settle. Cause you can't, you don't want to force them, like you said, to be these like oracles of like, if I just follow their lead, everything will be okay. Right?
• 23:51
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 23:51
  Speaker A: Right. No.
• 23:52
  Speaker B: Right. Because I do think, you know, she just seems to have this way of knowing things that. Yeah, it is, it. I don't want to further burden her. Right, that's right.
• 24:03
  Speaker A: What, what do you think has sustained you the most? Not as a founder or an advocate, but simply as Ava's mom. Like, what has sustained you the most?
• 24:11
  Speaker B: I mean, I think I'm on a lot of. I love my fellow advocates, so I do a lot of coalition and advocacy work. And I think that we all have the same fear. Right. Which is what is gonna happen when we are not here. So my husband, you know, is a two time cancer survivor. I am just always in my mind, you know, okay, this is great now, right? She's got this, she's got that. But what happens if we're not here? So I, you know, as sort of as heavy as that is, that is what sustains me. I feel like I am part of a team of other advocates. We have this problem to solve. You know, the government programs are not terribly helpful. They're actually working against us in some cases, like with the Communication Bill of Rights.
• 24:54
  Speaker A: Yeah. I would sit down in D.C. petitioning and literally talking to legislatures about this. So it's going to be a battle. And I do think that by like you saying these coalitions and not stopping speaking up about this.
• 25:09
  Speaker B: Yeah, I think what's so great too, so one of our main coalitions, we were all working in our silos, but we came together because we were vendors and various things and our classes were suddenly denied overnight. Our classes that we provide to autistic people. And so what has been so great and I think we all know this is, you know, it it to come together, the factions, whether it's the, you know, the certified settings versus the self direction or the S2C versus the, you know, whatever, all the things, when we come together and crowdsource and trade nodes, there is really no stopping us because in so many ways as parents of the kids that we have, you know, we've been like radicalized anyway.
• 25:53
  Speaker A: Without a doubt. Yeah. I mean like we were already put in a separate bucket like way long ago. Yeah.
• 26:00
  Speaker B: We know how to do things. You know, you tell us something and we are not listening, with all due respect, we're gonna figure out what to do. So then if you can get us all together and we can agree to disagree on a lot of the nuances, but all agree that the disability community deserves better. Right. They deserve better housing options, they deserve better programs. All the things that we know that we agree on if we just focus on that. So I feel like we're in a new phase, which is really exciting of us understanding that and working together.
• 26:33
  Speaker A: You hit on a word that's one of my favorite, which is nuance and complexity. I think that caregivers, mothers, parents, fathers like you and I share something that I wouldn't have understood the depth of the definition of complexity and nuance had it not been for having the children that I do. And again, it is the gift in all of this. And it's not a, a, it's not a shiny gift at all. It's a, it's a very heavy one. And at the same time, I think that the, like you're saying, when, when we're in coalition together, we're in conversation together with other similar minded caregivers on, on a mission to expand what is possible for children like ours. There is an intensity of like being like these rushing rapids of waters, like we can just flow because they, they insisted upon that of us. When they showed us who they were, there was no other option than to keep moving. Right. You know, I wish we stopped it and analyzed and just said, we'll figure this out in a static, you know, bubble. No, they beg of you to keep moving. And it's like what this skill is that you get from that is that you can sit in complexity, you can sit in the nuance of what's possible, not feel bogged down by what isn't happening right now and always knowing that they're continuing to grow and develop just as any other human. It just looks so wildly different than what we've been conditioned to think as growth, Growth. And that's that nuance and complexity. I'm so glad that you brought those words up because it's, it's so deeply baked into my mission.
• 27:58
  Speaker B: Yeah. And I think in the early years too, so Ava's 17, but I remember in the earlier years too, just feeling like the hard work of unraveling like what I had in my fixed in, fixed in beliefs. Right. Like, oh, okay, that's not going to happen and that's not going to happen. Like all these things that I really hadn't considered. I didn't know an autistic person before Ava like this. I was, I did not know anything about this community at all. And so there was just a lot that I had to learn and unlearn.
• 28:32
  Speaker A: Yes. I couldn't agree more. And one of the things I say every morning is I, I get to do this. I get to be their mother. I get to be the person that understands them and untangles all those Questions alongside them. Because if it's not for the mother or caregiver or father, parent, there is a. There's a much, you know, steeper hill ahead. And I think that what you're sharing just. Just so beautifully resonant in this conversation, how you're building it is not from theory or not from a distance. It's. It's from your life. And being Ava's mom, learning from her, believing in her, choosing to expand that belief outwards, is what I think the universe rewards. I think the universe rewards that and allows is why you're able to create opportunities for others. What you built with Invictus and the bakery isn't just about employment. It's about this human recognition. So thank you so much for who you are, for your little nook of this community. Make me grab some tissues after this, because hearing about the speller community and Ava and the bakers and what's literally being baked from the inside, it challenges others to see how the world defines ability. And you're doing it. And I'm so thankful for the work that you're doing for our community.
• 29:46
  Speaker B: No, I really. I appreciate that and thank you for the opportunity to amplify the mission. I think the biggest thing, too, is just that, you know, that I have another mom who started an organization, and she always says, and I agree, just don't overthink it. Just take the first step. You know, if you look at my resume, I literally. I didn't have nonprofit experience. I'm not a baker. I didn't know about a storefront. There are a million reasons why I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing, but I think having a team. Right, that's a huge part of it. And then just being led by our kids and needing the community, because I think if we're honest also, you know, like, I have a complicated child. I have a complicated child. And so leaning on our community and our other families that totally get it is, like, one of the best things.
• 30:38
  Speaker A: Yeah. Interacting and not isolating will always be the right choice, even as hard as it is from a sense of the energetic input it takes. I always say that getting outside of your home, making even one other connection with another family, whether that's a special needs family, a family that has a disabled child, or just your neighbor, it's never the wrong thing to interact. And we are curious by nature as Homo sapiens. And that's been proven over time that curiosity is a good thing. And if people are curious and they stay open, any interaction will I think double, double and triple in spades. Thank you again for all that you've done. I'm just really, really grateful you're here. And you've allowed your motherhood to shape it. You allowed it to shape something really impressive. So, Milly Sullivan of Invictus Bakery and Ava's mom, thank you for being here today on the Inchdomes podcast.
• 31:31
  Speaker B: Thank you.
• 31:32
  Speaker A: Bye, everyone.