Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / SEARCH WARRANT & CONTENTS OF Murder Suspect Brian Kohberger REVEALED

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SEARCH WARRANT & CONTENTS OF Murder Suspect Brian Kohberger REVEALED · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:06
Speaker 1: We have the return. Every time a search warrant is
0:12
Speaker 1: executed in the US anyway, there has to be what
0:15
Speaker 1: it's called a return on that return. You see what
0:20
Speaker 1: was actually seized during the search warrant. It's really like
0:25
Speaker 1: a laundry list of everything taken from the home. Now,
0:28
Speaker 1: as all you league egals know, the judge had sealed
0:33
Speaker 1: the search warrant. The problem will cause supporting the search
0:36
Speaker 1: warrant and the return for Brian Coburger's apartment there at
0:42
Speaker 1: step two village impullment, Washington. Guys, what do we know
0:48
Speaker 1: about that return? I mean, see Grace, this is crime Stories.
0:51
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation
0:54
Speaker 1: and Serious X one eleven. Take a listen to this.
0:57
Speaker 1: The highly anticipated warrants continue details about what investigators were
1:01
Speaker 1: looking for and what they found. It also alleges that
1:05
Speaker 1: Koeburger preplanned the ambush and had studied other murders in
1:08
Speaker 1: how to avoid detection as part of his preparations. And
1:11
Speaker 1: affidavit seeking the search warrant reads quote, these murders appeared
1:15
Speaker 1: to have been planned rather than a crime that happened
1:17
Speaker 1: in a moment of conflict unquote, because the victim's home
1:20
Speaker 1: contained a significant amount of blood spattering cast off. Investigators
1:24
Speaker 1: told the court they believed they would find some of
1:27
Speaker 1: that evidence transferred to Koburger's department. Once inside his apartment,
1:31
Speaker 1: police found what they were looking for in the search warrant.
1:35
Speaker 1: Officers say, based on the locations of the suspect vehicle
1:38
Speaker 1: and the suspect's phone immediately following the murders, it is
1:42
Speaker 1: probable that Koburger went home after the killings, and it
1:47
Speaker 1: is likely that he still had blood or other trace
1:50
Speaker 1: evidence on his person, including skin cells or hair from
1:53
Speaker 1: the victims or from Kailee Gonsalves's dog. You are hearing
1:57
Speaker 1: our friends at Crime Online and CBS News with me
2:01
Speaker 1: and All Star panel to make sense of what we
2:03
Speaker 1: know right now. But I can tell you this much
2:06
Speaker 1: a few words in my mind, summit, all up, A
2:11
Speaker 1: stained pillow and a glove. Straight out to Laura Ingle,
2:17
Speaker 1: joining us senior correspondent Fox News Channel, Laura, tell me everything.
2:21
Speaker 1: As you mentioned. Finally we are getting this glimpse of
2:25
Speaker 1: what police were looking for that's listed in this unsealed
2:29
Speaker 1: search warrant and what they found. The list of items
2:32
Speaker 1: that investigators seized in the search of suspect Brian Coburger's
2:35
Speaker 1: Washington State apartment include fifteen items. It was on the
2:40
Speaker 1: last page of the search warrant that we got yesterday.
2:43
Speaker 1: This search warrant was about forty nine pages long, and
2:45
Speaker 1: when you go through the list, you mentioned the glove
2:47
Speaker 1: one nitrate type black glove, a Walmart receipt with one
2:52
Speaker 1: Dickey's tag. Remember the suspect described by DM By Dylan,
2:56
Speaker 1: the surviving roommate, said she saw somebody dressed head to
2:59
Speaker 1: toe in dark clothing. Dicky's has dark clothing. We know
3:03
Speaker 1: that two marshals receipts dust container from a vacuum, eight
3:08
Speaker 1: possible hairs. One of those hairs is a possible animal hairstrand.
3:12
Speaker 1: As we know, Kayley consolves the victim. One of the victims, Murphy,
3:15
Speaker 1: her dog was in the home at the time, a
3:18
Speaker 1: computer tower, and a collection of dark red spots without testing.
3:22
Speaker 1: Now the stuff hasn't been tested without the other part
3:24
Speaker 1: that we're waiting for. Right once they test those hairstrands,
3:27
Speaker 1: once they test these dark red stains both on this
3:32
Speaker 1: uncased pillow and the bottom of a mattress cover that
3:35
Speaker 1: was packaged and labeled. Put in a chain of custody,
3:38
Speaker 1: everything labeled with evidence. But look, we saw right all
3:42
Speaker 1: that video of the investigators coming out of Brian Copoger's
3:46
Speaker 1: apartment in Washington States, tubs and tubs, boxes, boxes, and
3:51
Speaker 1: bat So this list that has those fifteen items is
3:55
Speaker 1: most likely just a very small sample of what they
3:57
Speaker 1: were covered, but it is at least what they told
3:59
Speaker 1: us that they have to substantiate the search warrant. And
4:03
Speaker 1: then also within the search warrant was a list of
4:06
Speaker 1: what they were looking for. The long list, but the
4:09
Speaker 1: highlights include they were looking for blood, human tissue, knives, sheaths,
4:15
Speaker 1: sharp tools, daggers, swords, and anything that had sales or
4:20
Speaker 1: pieces are and specifically also any images digital or on
4:25
Speaker 1: paper of the victims and or the house at eleven
4:29
Speaker 1: twenty two a road, looking for dark clothing, and looking
4:34
Speaker 1: for data compilations, and of course you know, as we
4:37
Speaker 1: heard there that report they also say, is this search warrant.
4:43
Speaker 1: They alleged that Copeger planned the ambush rather than this
4:47
Speaker 1: happening in a moment of conflict, and also noted that
4:50
Speaker 1: he had studied other murders and how to avoid detection
4:54
Speaker 1: as part of this preparation. And remember a search warrant
4:58
Speaker 1: has to be very specific. You can't have a judge
5:03
Speaker 1: sign a warrant where the cops says, well, we just
5:05
Speaker 1: want to go fish around, see fun finding thing. That is,
5:08
Speaker 1: while you're hearing Laura Ingle, clearly detail what cops say,
5:13
Speaker 1: they're interested in, what they hope to find Specifically, a
5:18
Speaker 1: judge will never sign off on basically a fishing expedition
5:23
Speaker 1: where you have no idea what you're looking for. Guys,
5:27
Speaker 1: take a listen to our friend Dave mack. In requesting
5:29
Speaker 1: the search warrant, it was pointed out that quote the
5:32
Speaker 1: King Road residence contained a significant amount of blood from
5:35
Speaker 1: the victims, including spatter and cast off, a bloodstained pattern
5:39
Speaker 1: resulting from blood drops release from an object due to
5:42
Speaker 1: its motion, making it likely that this evidence was transferred
5:45
Speaker 1: to Coburger's person, clothing, or shoes. Based on the locations
5:49
Speaker 1: of the suspect vehicle and the eight four or five
5:52
Speaker 1: eight phone immediately following the murders, it is probable that
5:56
Speaker 1: Cooburger went home to his residence at sixteen thirty Northeast
5:59
Speaker 1: Valley Road at that time. It is likely that he
6:02
Speaker 1: still had blood or other trace evidence on his person, clothes,
6:05
Speaker 1: or shoes, including skin cells or hair from the victims
6:10
Speaker 1: or from Gonzalva's dog. Said here in the studio with
6:13
Speaker 1: me went along on our expedition where we went from
6:19
Speaker 1: the crime scene there on King Road on the circuitous route,
6:25
Speaker 1: and Cheryl McCollum man, I wish he'd been in the
6:28
Speaker 1: suv with us. There were times it takes takes of
6:32
Speaker 1: an hour and ten minutes to get home that way,
6:34
Speaker 1: or it took us that long dark like where you
6:38
Speaker 1: and I grew up in the country, no street lights,
6:40
Speaker 1: pinch dark, couldn't see the road. A lot of the
6:45
Speaker 1: road was dirt or gravel, so bumpy that it would
6:50
Speaker 1: make everybody in the suv shape up and down. That's
6:53
Speaker 1: so bumpy. He took that route for a reason what
6:56
Speaker 1: should have been a ten minute drive. That is why
7:00
Speaker 1: what's in that car is so significant. But I was
7:03
Speaker 1: thinking about, as Dave Mack read from the warrant, all
7:10
Speaker 1: the spatter at the scene, the cast off a blood
7:14
Speaker 1: stained pattern resulting from blood drop's release from an object
7:18
Speaker 1: due to its motion, in other words, the stabbing motion
7:22
Speaker 1: and the pullback of the knife for another stab, making
7:27
Speaker 1: it likely this evidence was transferred to Coburger's person, clothing
7:31
Speaker 1: or shoes, and that based on what they could tell
7:35
Speaker 1: from his cell phone. He then gets into that white
7:38
Speaker 1: Elantra and sets off for the long drive that Sydney
7:42
Speaker 1: and I made just the other night. Nancy, that cast
7:45
Speaker 1: off is not only going to land on his clothing,
7:48
Speaker 1: It's going to land on his face. It's going to
7:50
Speaker 1: land in his hair, on his arms, if his hands
7:53
Speaker 1: had the nitrate gloves, so to speak, but his wrist
7:56
Speaker 1: in his arms, it is going to be so easy
8:00
Speaker 1: for that to transfer when he pulls his clothing off,
8:04
Speaker 1: when he lays on the bed from exhaustion, whatever. All
8:07
Speaker 1: of those things are just this natural progression of how
8:10
Speaker 1: the Lockhart principle we talk about all the time, from
8:13
Speaker 1: one scene to another it is transferred. You can't go
8:16
Speaker 1: in a scene or leave a scene without taking something
8:19
Speaker 1: and leaving something. You're hearing Cheryl McCallum, forensic expert, founder
8:23
Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Research Institute. You can find her
8:26
Speaker 1: at Cold Case crimes dot org and very important. She
8:31
Speaker 1: is a forensics expert still working the force also with me.
8:37
Speaker 1: Giovanni Massuchi, Senior digital forensic examiner, thirty five years of experience,
8:45
Speaker 1: Giovanni follow up with Cheryl, what do you think of
8:48
Speaker 1: what she said? He's absolutely right on that as far
8:51
Speaker 1: as as trace evidence blood splatter, and we're bringing something
8:57
Speaker 1: into the site and onto the site. Believe her on that.
9:02
Speaker 1: You know what's interesting to Giovanni and Cheryl A lot
9:07
Speaker 1: of times perps and crime scene texts not you two,
9:13
Speaker 1: of course, miss blood high up on the wall or
9:18
Speaker 1: on the ceiling. Forget to look up now what a
9:23
Speaker 1: tragedy that would have been, for instance, in the Ted
9:26
Speaker 1: Bundy case, because the ceiling blood spatter showed the exact
9:32
Speaker 1: trajectory of the blood from the bludgeoning of the girls exactly.
9:38
Speaker 1: They could even get a pretty good idea, if not
9:42
Speaker 1: the exact idea of the amount of force Bundy used
9:46
Speaker 1: when he hit his victims based on the degree of
9:50
Speaker 1: blood and the way it's spattered on the ceiling. What
9:53
Speaker 1: about that, Cheryl? Yeah, not only did it show the force,
9:56
Speaker 1: but for me, when I first walked into a scene
9:59
Speaker 1: like that, tail by the number of cast offs that
10:02
Speaker 1: are on the wall, in the ceiling, how many times
10:06
Speaker 1: that victim was stabbed. So if I've got four cast
10:09
Speaker 1: off patterns, the victim was stabbed at least five times
10:12
Speaker 1: because the first time the knife was clean first time,
10:15
Speaker 1: then you pull the knife, back stab again, back stab again,
10:21
Speaker 1: back stab again. That's what she's talking about. So why
10:26
Speaker 1: use nitrate gloves as opposed to rubber gloves or plastic gloves. Nitrate,
10:32
Speaker 1: water pref grease prices, oil prief and most importantly chemically resistant.
10:38
Speaker 1: Now with their care proofs, that's the most important thing.
10:41
Speaker 1: That's right, very good point. I'm hearing the voice of
10:43
Speaker 1: Dale Carson, high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville and former
10:47
Speaker 1: FED with the FBI. Jump in, go ahead, you know,
10:50
Speaker 1: talking about the magic Carrol. I will just tell you
10:55
Speaker 1: can also determine the dominant hand of a striker often
11:01
Speaker 1: and the heights of the striker. So when when that
11:07
Speaker 1: first came out back in the nineteen eighties, it was
11:10
Speaker 1: classified FBI material. We were told not to disclose that
11:15
Speaker 1: technique to anyone. And now it's become pretty much mainstream.
11:20
Speaker 1: And if you could quickly, if there is a way
11:22
Speaker 1: to do it quickly explain how you determine the height
11:26
Speaker 1: of the based on these markings. Well, it's all coming
11:30
Speaker 1: from armlink. To just draw a circle from one point
11:34
Speaker 1: to a swing to a swing with your shoulder and
11:37
Speaker 1: your arm extended, and you go back to a common
11:41
Speaker 1: point that's the shoulder socket. And then you can guess
11:47
Speaker 1: at the heights of the individual when you do those
11:49
Speaker 1: sort of things, where they standing, where they're sitting. There
11:52
Speaker 1: are all sorts of technical abilities that they have with
11:56
Speaker 1: that effort now that we're just unheard of forty years ago. Yeah,
12:01
Speaker 1: you're right, guys. Take a listener. More from Dave Mack.
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Speaker 1: Court Documents released by Whitman County show what evidence investigators
12:08
Speaker 1: were looking for when they searched Coburger's residence and his office.
12:12
Speaker 1: They were searching for any blood, bodily fluid, or skin cells.
12:16
Speaker 1: As for weapons, they searched for any knives, sheets, or
12:19
Speaker 1: other sharp tools. They also searched for any digital or
12:23
Speaker 1: paper images of the victims or the King Rode House.
12:26
Speaker 1: They look for clothing, including but not limited to, dark shirts,
12:30
Speaker 1: dark pants, masks, or shoes with a diamond pattern soul.
12:34
Speaker 1: Investigators also sought any digital evidence linking him to the victims,
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Speaker 1: the King Rode House, or any data compilations showing an
12:41
Speaker 1: interest in murder crime stories With Nancy Grace, you know
13:00
Speaker 1: it's so dense, Laura ingle. I mean, I've had to
13:05
Speaker 1: read this several times. And I remember in law school, Laura,
13:09
Speaker 1: this is reminding me of that. I came from being
13:12
Speaker 1: a Shakespeare in Literature major, and I'd read a sentence
13:16
Speaker 1: in a US Supreme Court decision that was almost a
13:19
Speaker 1: whole paragraph, and I would actually have to dissect the sentence.
13:23
Speaker 1: And when I look back at my criminal law book,
13:25
Speaker 1: which is huge and thick, there are watermarks on so
13:29
Speaker 1: many pages because I'd have to study so much. I
13:32
Speaker 1: would even study in the bathtub, just reading constantly. And finally,
13:36
Speaker 1: at one time, I'm like, okay, this is going too far.
13:38
Speaker 1: I studied on the back row of church one night.
13:40
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, this has got to start. This is
13:43
Speaker 1: something is wrong about this. I don't know what it is,
13:46
Speaker 1: but my point is, did you just hear Dave Mac
13:50
Speaker 1: reading that. I mean, it's just so shot full of
13:55
Speaker 1: so much evidence, listen, I mean legal aspects. Investigators also
14:01
Speaker 1: sought digital evidence linking him to the victims, right data
14:05
Speaker 1: compilations showing an interest in murder, digital or paper images
14:11
Speaker 1: of the victims or the King Roadhouse. Clothing, including but
14:15
Speaker 1: not limited to, dark shirts, dark pants, mask or shoes,
14:19
Speaker 1: with a diamond pattern soul to hopefully match back up
14:23
Speaker 1: to the diamond pattern soul mark in the home. Every
14:28
Speaker 1: sentence here is just an explosion of information, Laura Ingle,
14:33
Speaker 1: that's right. And when you go through that list of
14:36
Speaker 1: what they were looking for, you mentioned the data compilations
14:38
Speaker 1: and the plan that he was. They were looking for
14:41
Speaker 1: any data compilations of the planning of murder, but also
14:45
Speaker 1: specifically murder, violent assaults, stabbing, and or cutting of people.
14:52
Speaker 1: And they were looking for an example of ledgers, papers, lists, books,
14:57
Speaker 1: those letters, calendars, addressed books, contact lists, diaries, tapes, photographs, videos, emails,
15:05
Speaker 1: text messages. They were looking for cell phones. They were passwords, phrases, codes, patterns, fingerprints,
15:14
Speaker 1: user names to operate any of those devices. They wanted
15:18
Speaker 1: the devices. They wanted to see if he had written
15:20
Speaker 1: down any of the passwords so they can get into
15:23
Speaker 1: those electronics. And you're right, it is very dense. They
15:28
Speaker 1: were very specific. And when you think about how a
15:30
Speaker 1: search warrant is executed, I was speaking to a former
15:34
Speaker 1: NYPD officers yesterday, and tell me how you go in.
15:37
Speaker 1: He said, well, we get the warrant, we have the list,
15:40
Speaker 1: then your methodical going room by room. You've got the
15:43
Speaker 1: person who's actually looking for the items on the list.
15:47
Speaker 1: Then you've got the other police officer next to you.
15:50
Speaker 1: We're recording how it's going down, but they're watching it.
15:53
Speaker 1: They're recording it. They are writing their own log of
15:57
Speaker 1: how they're obtaining this evidence and ormation. We've talked about
16:01
Speaker 1: the chain of command, how they're sealing it up, how
16:04
Speaker 1: they put their initials on it. There is a lot
16:07
Speaker 1: more that we are going to learn. This is the
16:09
Speaker 1: search warrant of this apartment. We've learned to find much
16:13
Speaker 1: or if anything in his office. You've got to get
16:16
Speaker 1: to the search warrant of the car that will hopefully
16:19
Speaker 1: be revealed soon. But this list of the apartment, you're right,
16:23
Speaker 1: it is very dense and tells us how ridiculous they were.
16:27
Speaker 1: And you look at you look at the time stamp
16:29
Speaker 1: on page one styled January third. Remember what we were doing? Yes,
16:34
Speaker 1: and less just happened. They had quickly put together exactly
16:38
Speaker 1: what they wanted to find in this apartment, and they
16:41
Speaker 1: found a good amount. What I want to know is
16:44
Speaker 1: you got to come back. Did he leave? There's the
16:47
Speaker 1: house abandoned, the apartment abandoned, which is an other indition
16:51
Speaker 1: of guilt because of the flight issue, and I as
16:56
Speaker 1: you coming back. I mean you can look at their
16:58
Speaker 1: food in the refrigerator. All the kinds of things will
17:01
Speaker 1: give you an idea of where we intended to come back.
17:04
Speaker 1: Del Carson speaking Dell Carson. You know, as I always say,
17:08
Speaker 1: when you don't know a horse, look at his track record.
17:11
Speaker 1: He went straight back to school as if nothing had changed.
17:15
Speaker 1: He participating in classes. He texted his neighbor that I
17:19
Speaker 1: talked to Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family. Active
17:23
Speaker 1: said nothing was wrong, So I would venture to extrapolate
17:28
Speaker 1: he was coming back as if nothing had happened, also
17:31
Speaker 1: with us. Chris mcdonno, director of the Cold Case Foundation,
17:34
Speaker 1: former homicide detective worked over three hundred homicides. Host of
17:39
Speaker 1: the Interview Room on YouTube, Chris, one thing I always
17:44
Speaker 1: like to do during searches or when I would visit
17:48
Speaker 1: a crime scene, it's just sit down. There's nothing to
17:52
Speaker 1: sit on. Just stand there quietly and think if I
17:57
Speaker 1: wanted to hide something in this room, where would I
18:02
Speaker 1: hide it? And just sit there while everybody else is
18:07
Speaker 1: going cray on everything and taking pictures and measurements and
18:11
Speaker 1: finding stuff to just sit and think, think calmly about
18:18
Speaker 1: everything you might miss. What about it, Chris, I'm a
18:22
Speaker 1: side one on one Nancy. They where you take in
18:27
Speaker 1: each wall independently. And if we look at this return here.
18:35
Speaker 1: Yesterday we talked about there's going to be a huge
18:38
Speaker 1: push for digital footprint. We're starting to see that today.
18:42
Speaker 1: But what we're missing here is there are stix locations
18:47
Speaker 1: where these individual hairs were discovered. In one location there
18:53
Speaker 1: were eight of them, and then in the others there
18:56
Speaker 1: was an animal hair, another possible hair, Item eight, item nine,
19:01
Speaker 1: Item ten, Item eleven. These are six locations where these
19:07
Speaker 1: hairs were discovered and they were transferred from something or somebody,
19:13
Speaker 1: either the crime scene as Cheryl has talked about, the
19:16
Speaker 1: sushback or the victims, but somebody caught each of these
19:21
Speaker 1: hairs independently. The other thing that we see is very interesting.
19:26
Speaker 1: Here are the receipts items number two and three where
19:33
Speaker 1: this guy had gone out, it appears, and purchased items
19:37
Speaker 1: pre planning. Something's going on here with that, and we
19:41
Speaker 1: see a new discovery I think it's on page eighteen,
19:45
Speaker 1: where he was caught on video at a chef's store
19:49
Speaker 1: at least passing a chef's store near the coffee area
19:55
Speaker 1: where after the homicides he drove out there. So those
19:58
Speaker 1: minute detail are starting to flow just as just as
20:02
Speaker 1: you've predicted. And then we've talked about here on your show, Sydney.
20:06
Speaker 1: Do you remember when we were out in Idaho and
20:10
Speaker 1: a woman came up to us and she was talking
20:14
Speaker 1: about his route back home and that he would have
20:18
Speaker 1: crossed over was it the Red Bridge, red Wolf Bridge? Yeah, yeah,
20:23
Speaker 1: that was it, red Wolf Bridge, That's it. And she
20:27
Speaker 1: was talking about how he had passed a chef's store
20:30
Speaker 1: and a coffee shop. That was the grocery store trip exactly.
20:35
Speaker 1: And I'm just thinking back about that chef's store and
20:40
Speaker 1: what type of cutlery and knives were sold there. Hey,
20:44
Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnah, don't worry, beff, I'm coming right to you.
20:47
Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnah speaking of a black glove, Sydney just reminded
20:52
Speaker 1: me of this a black glove I think that was found. Yes, ma'am,
20:58
Speaker 1: what about the one black glove that you found that
21:03
Speaker 1: you spotted and pointed it out to a cop at
21:05
Speaker 1: the scene, at the crime scene. It's certainly going to
21:08
Speaker 1: be interesting. I couldn't tell what specific makeup the glove
21:14
Speaker 1: was because they had had snow and looks like some
21:18
Speaker 1: leaves over it. You could definitely see the fingers tips,
21:22
Speaker 1: but I could not tell if it was consistent with
21:25
Speaker 1: the type of materials that they have listed in this
21:30
Speaker 1: return church warrant affidata. So it's going to be interesting, yeah,
21:35
Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall with US high profile psychoanis joining us
21:38
Speaker 1: out of LA She's at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com
21:42
Speaker 1: and she is the star of a hit series on Netflix,
21:47
Speaker 1: Bling Empire. Doctor Bethany, I want you to take a
21:50
Speaker 1: listen to our friends at KAT and I want to
21:54
Speaker 1: talk to you about the blood on Kay Burger's Hello Listen.
22:00
Speaker 1: Investigators searched his apartment on December thirtieth, the same day
22:03
Speaker 1: he was arrested at his parents home in Pennsylvania. According
22:07
Speaker 1: to that search warrant, investigators found and confiscated a number
22:10
Speaker 1: of things, including a synthetic rubber black glove, several possible
22:15
Speaker 1: hair strands both human and dog, two cuttings from an
22:18
Speaker 1: uncased pillow with a reddish brown stain, as well as
22:23
Speaker 1: two mattress covers package separately with multiple stains. Police also
22:28
Speaker 1: searched Coburger's teaching office at Washington State University, but the
22:31
Speaker 1: records show they did not take anything. In the search warrant,
22:35
Speaker 1: there was a mention of how items such as blood
22:37
Speaker 1: or hair could be transferred from the crime scene to
22:41
Speaker 1: Coburger and end up back in his car or at
22:43
Speaker 1: his apartment. Investigators located a possible animal hair strand. Now
22:48
Speaker 1: remember Kaylie Gonzalva's dog was at the home the night
22:51
Speaker 1: of the murders. They also found three possible hairs and
22:54
Speaker 1: a possible hair strand. They collected what could be blood,
22:58
Speaker 1: as there was a reddish round stain on an uncased pillow,
23:02
Speaker 1: as well as multiple stains on a top and bottom
23:05
Speaker 1: mattress cover. Doctor Bestany, I've been thinking a lot about
23:09
Speaker 1: what we believed to be a blood stain on his pillow,
23:12
Speaker 1: Coburger's pillow on his bend. Do you remember just a
23:16
Speaker 1: day or two ago, photos came out of Coburger in
23:19
Speaker 1: court and he had cuts all along his right jaw
23:25
Speaker 1: and we were told it was from shaving. So if
23:30
Speaker 1: you want to believe the blood, the potential blood on
23:36
Speaker 1: his pillowcase was from shaving, that would mean he had
23:40
Speaker 1: to shave before he went to bed, which really doesn't
23:43
Speaker 1: make any sense, doesn't That makes no sense at all, Nancy.
23:47
Speaker 1: You know, this was a very bloody crime scene, and
23:50
Speaker 1: obviously the victim's supposed to have fought back. Even though
23:54
Speaker 1: it was a surprise attack, it was a crime of opportunity.
23:57
Speaker 1: He attacked them in their sleep, you know, instinctially they
24:01
Speaker 1: were reactive, and it could be that even in the frenzy,
24:05
Speaker 1: he caught himself with his own knife. It's a little
24:08
Speaker 1: scary to speak up in front of this panel of
24:10
Speaker 1: crime scene investigators. But I have a different way of
24:14
Speaker 1: looking at this as a mental health expert, and that
24:17
Speaker 1: is through the lens of Coburger's fantasy life. We're looking
24:22
Speaker 1: at a thin slice of history here, the night of
24:25
Speaker 1: the crime, the months proceeding, the week or two after
24:28
Speaker 1: the crime. But I know that serial killers in the
24:32
Speaker 1: making have prolific fantasy lives. They eat, sleep, breathe homicide.
24:39
Speaker 1: That's all they think about. So his apartment is likely
24:43
Speaker 1: going to be organized around his fantasy life, just like
24:47
Speaker 1: a kid who's obsessed with dungeons and dragons is going
24:50
Speaker 1: to have that kind of equipment all over their room,
24:53
Speaker 1: or an alcoholic is going to have let's see tequila
24:56
Speaker 1: bottles all over the apartment. What does the sear killer
25:00
Speaker 1: do in the making, If indeed my theory is correct
25:03
Speaker 1: that he was a serial killer in the making, he
25:06
Speaker 1: botched his first crime. We know that the reason they
25:10
Speaker 1: strike and then they go underground for months at a
25:13
Speaker 1: time before they strike again if they can feed off
25:16
Speaker 1: of their own fantasy life. And that means that that
25:19
Speaker 1: digital imprint, what he was looking at online, what he
25:23
Speaker 1: was reading maybe even a pattern of semen around the household,
25:28
Speaker 1: is he's looking at different images and using it to
25:31
Speaker 1: fuel statistic sexual fantasies. That that is a dark, underground
25:37
Speaker 1: layer that I don't know if crime scene investigators look at,
25:40
Speaker 1: but I'm sure that leads an imprint too. I was
25:42
Speaker 1: just thinking about what you said, doctor Bethany, And I
25:44
Speaker 1: remember when I was not doing Dancing with the Stars,
25:47
Speaker 1: I managed to wiggle into a couple of celebrities homes.
25:51
Speaker 1: They had trophies everywhere, pictures of themselves and fancy artwork
25:58
Speaker 1: and beautiful and weird sculptures that I didn't know what
26:03
Speaker 1: they were. Then at our home, everything is covered in
26:12
Speaker 1: pictures of the twins and our family, and you know
26:17
Speaker 1: tacky little chotchkey from wherever we've visited. You know that's right, Nancy.
26:24
Speaker 1: In the Bundy case, you know, he drew and drew
26:29
Speaker 1: pictures of himself in various costumes with broken arms or
26:33
Speaker 1: arms in a sling, and it was he was very
26:37
Speaker 1: good at that, and those were drawn prior to the attacks.
26:42
Speaker 1: And so what doctor buft he is saying is entirely accurate.
26:46
Speaker 1: Those individuals live in a world that most of us
26:50
Speaker 1: cannot understand because they are driven by a powerful biologic urge.
26:56
Speaker 1: So you add that to your fantasy, and you've got
27:00
Speaker 1: somebody who's a real animal. And you know, charyln cullum
27:02
Speaker 1: with me, Oh, I was just coming to you, I
27:04
Speaker 1: would Laura, I want to circle back with you about
27:06
Speaker 1: the cutlery. Don't let me forget Laura Ingle. You're the
27:09
Speaker 1: ringmaster today. Cheryl McCollum, remember in the District Attorney's office
27:13
Speaker 1: what my office like? On the inside there were two
27:17
Speaker 1: very old were they money prints? And then everything else.
27:22
Speaker 1: I remember there was a sawed off shotgun from a
27:25
Speaker 1: crimes like that big. There was a huge blow up
27:29
Speaker 1: that I'd used for a jury. Don't touch the al
27:32
Speaker 1: ram this is a robie from my dyslexic bank robber
27:36
Speaker 1: who then when he did his writing sample, he also
27:39
Speaker 1: did the writing sample with the letters reversed, so that
27:43
Speaker 1: did not take a writing handwriting expert to win that
27:46
Speaker 1: jury trial. So I was lucky about his handwriting, and
27:50
Speaker 1: just all sorts of weird, bizarre memorabilia, things that had
27:56
Speaker 1: come from cases years back that had already gone up
28:00
Speaker 1: and affirmed on appeal. Do you remember that I was
28:02
Speaker 1: thinking about what Bethany said. Now I find that really insightful, right,
28:08
Speaker 1: And it's something we talked about weeks ago. When we
28:10
Speaker 1: use the analogy of somebody playing a wedding, it's all
28:14
Speaker 1: they can think about, all they can look at, or
28:16
Speaker 1: dresses and cakes and flowers and venues. They can't help
28:21
Speaker 1: themselves and they can't hide it. And that's why I
28:23
Speaker 1: thought he would have maps on the wall and photographs
28:26
Speaker 1: and he would have this stuff lay out, because this
28:30
Speaker 1: is what he wants. I've said multiple times it's porn
28:34
Speaker 1: to him. He can't get enough of it, whether it's
28:37
Speaker 1: doctor Ramsen's class, whether it's something online he's researching, whether
28:42
Speaker 1: it's something he's putting together at home, and he's putting
28:44
Speaker 1: on the clothes and practicing. I'm telling you he has
28:48
Speaker 1: not hidden this in any way possible. And I want
28:51
Speaker 1: to say again, remember that doctor Ramslin. They did not
28:55
Speaker 1: make him. He went because of what he already was. Hey, Cheryl,
28:59
Speaker 1: I just want to do Do you remember when that
29:01
Speaker 1: sawd off shotgun came from that I had in my office?
29:04
Speaker 1: A guy convicted on two rapes goes to the penitentiary
29:08
Speaker 1: on a rape, does seven years, He gets out, and
29:12
Speaker 1: what does he do? He gets a sawt off shotgun.
29:15
Speaker 1: As soon as he leaves the jail, flags down a
29:18
Speaker 1: lady like he needs help with a car, and he
29:21
Speaker 1: kidnapped certain rape sir day one the day he got
29:24
Speaker 1: out of jail. Within hour, Yes, within hours, he Nancy, Yes,
29:29
Speaker 1: jump in. I'm sorry, Laura Angle, please blame it on
29:31
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall again, go ahead, mass okay, BTK killer didn't
29:36
Speaker 1: he have like a red legateech outfit self sitting on
29:39
Speaker 1: a chair all bound up. He had all these pictures
29:43
Speaker 1: of himself in various BDSM styles of dress, and he
29:48
Speaker 1: would look at these pictures. So it wasn't just that
29:51
Speaker 1: the blood the crime, It was all these pictures. He
29:54
Speaker 1: left behind and including on the disc that he sent
29:57
Speaker 1: to the pastor of the church. There's some credible re
30:00
Speaker 1: search that pedophiles when they're discharged, when they're released from jail,
30:04
Speaker 1: are more primed to offend because they've been living in
30:07
Speaker 1: their fantasy world while they're in prison, and it's sort
30:10
Speaker 1: of a sexualized fantasy world, so it actually increases their
30:15
Speaker 1: propensity to go out and look at victim. I've got
30:18
Speaker 1: to tell you something, doctor Bethany, have no idea what's
30:20
Speaker 1: happening while you're talking, Cheryl. This is a yes note.
30:24
Speaker 1: Do you remember the beautiful court reporter that was the
30:27
Speaker 1: murdered in the courthouse shootings, of course, Julie Julie and
30:31
Speaker 1: then my other favorite court reporter, Miss Donna Keeble. I
30:35
Speaker 1: was looking at Sydney here in the studio whenever doctor
30:38
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall starts talking, and other times, and I'll never
30:43
Speaker 1: forget how Donna Keeble and Julie as Evotts would come
30:47
Speaker 1: out during testimony. They would make all sorts of faces
30:51
Speaker 1: and yeah, and Jie will be looking at them too,
30:56
Speaker 1: and the defendant would get up in say some bs
30:58
Speaker 1: on the stand that role and they joy me looking
31:02
Speaker 1: right at them, and Nastany Marshall said, BTK and his
31:08
Speaker 1: red latex suit. I wish you could have seen. I
31:10
Speaker 1: thought her hand was going to just fly off. But
31:14
Speaker 1: it reminded me of my corboards time stories with Nancy Grace. Okay,
31:32
Speaker 1: Laura Ingle, don't anybody say a word while Ingle is talking?
31:36
Speaker 1: Hit me, Laura. Two things here, Well, we had our
31:39
Speaker 1: guests mentioned the US chef Store that was part of
31:42
Speaker 1: the route was along the route on the way home,
31:45
Speaker 1: so obviously he didn't go there that day if he
31:48
Speaker 1: has ever been to the store. But when you go
31:50
Speaker 1: to that website, the US chef Store that's located in
31:54
Speaker 1: Clark's Washington, next to that Kate's Cup of Jill play,
31:59
Speaker 1: look at the thing that you can buy there. There
32:01
Speaker 1: are many fixed blade knives that you can buy. And
32:05
Speaker 1: we've all we've been talking about the k bar, we've
32:08
Speaker 1: been talking about military hunting stores. But when you go
32:12
Speaker 1: to that chef Store website, you do see that there
32:15
Speaker 1: are the dynamic Chef's knife ten inches long, it forged
32:19
Speaker 1: eight inch knife. These are huge knives, but would they
32:23
Speaker 1: have a hilt? Look at well, look at the photos
32:26
Speaker 1: for me, Laura Ingle, because there's something about the bodies.
32:30
Speaker 1: Giovanni Massuchi, Senior Friends examiner, thirty five years in the business.
32:37
Speaker 1: They came out at the get go and said, and
32:40
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if this is because of the marks left
32:43
Speaker 1: on the bodies that they believe the victims were murdered
32:48
Speaker 1: with a military style type knife, fixed blade, which would
32:56
Speaker 1: suggest it had a hilt. And I don't recall any
33:00
Speaker 1: of our kitchen knives having a hilt, but I am
33:04
Speaker 1: not a knife expert. I can't claim that. What about it, Giovanni,
33:07
Speaker 1: Because of the way that the type of blade is made,
33:12
Speaker 1: at least type of indentation on the bonny, so they're
33:16
Speaker 1: looking at that as well, and what can come from
33:20
Speaker 1: the blood splatters were on it. But the way that
33:23
Speaker 1: the handle is made, the way that the blade is forged,
33:28
Speaker 1: gives some kind of indication on the markets, and so
33:32
Speaker 1: that's how they're they're able to determine between whether the
33:36
Speaker 1: just a kitchen knife or a heavy grade knife or
33:39
Speaker 1: military blade, or whether it was not fixed if it
33:44
Speaker 1: wasn't a lock blade or military grade. And you know,
33:47
Speaker 1: Laura angele, I do put a lot of store in
33:52
Speaker 1: I've compared it to forensic dentistry because flesh, you know,
33:57
Speaker 1: when you're analyzing by it marks and human flesh, flesh moves,
34:02
Speaker 1: so you can't really get a slight Trying to take
34:04
Speaker 1: a teeth mold for the orthodonist in Jella, you're not
34:08
Speaker 1: going to get a good print, right. So I don't
34:10
Speaker 1: know that there really was a hilt, you know, we
34:13
Speaker 1: just we don't know, right because the item has not
34:16
Speaker 1: been discovered. But when you look at you know, we
34:18
Speaker 1: don't know if he went to this. I'm sure that
34:20
Speaker 1: investigators have gone into the US chefs store. Yeah, and
34:24
Speaker 1: we'll find out about that later. When you look at
34:27
Speaker 1: a chef's knife overview, you see that it has a
34:30
Speaker 1: blade and an edge and a heel and what's called
34:33
Speaker 1: the bolsters. I'll just the anatomy of a chef's knife.
34:37
Speaker 1: Is it possible? Sure? Another thing I want to bring
34:40
Speaker 1: to your attention is I don't have this. I haven't
34:43
Speaker 1: talked to this person, but the Daily Mail is reporting
34:46
Speaker 1: that one of a girl that he went to school
34:49
Speaker 1: with Brian Coburger in sixth grade. The FBI has reportedly
34:53
Speaker 1: interviewed this lady, kim Neelie, and she was his middle
35:00
Speaker 1: school crush and FBI reportedly has interviewed her because he
35:08
Speaker 1: developed a crush and began romantically pursuing her and she
35:12
Speaker 1: rebuffed him. And a lot of we've heard that a
35:15
Speaker 1: lot of former classmates have been interviewed. These classmates are
35:20
Speaker 1: describing Coburger as a chubby, awkward misfit. But what's important
35:26
Speaker 1: to note here is one of the former students, a
35:29
Speaker 1: third former classmate noted in this article, says, it's interesting
35:35
Speaker 1: to me that the girls and he was made fun of.
35:37
Speaker 1: Everybody here says that the popular girls, the cheerleader literally
35:41
Speaker 1: tortured him. Girls started making fun of him in middle school,
35:45
Speaker 1: and then when he seemed to turn his life around
35:47
Speaker 1: in high school and he started boxing and lost weight,
35:50
Speaker 1: he was a totally different person. But they described him
35:54
Speaker 1: as someone with a short fuse, constantly trying to change
35:57
Speaker 1: his style and personality. And then this third former classmate
36:01
Speaker 1: says this, it's interesting to me that the girls he's
36:04
Speaker 1: accused of killing or nice looking and seemingly popular, much
36:08
Speaker 1: like the ones that made fun of him throughout his childhood. Okay,
36:12
Speaker 1: I know right where to go with that. That's doctor
36:14
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, John Pan Bethany Well What comes to mind
36:17
Speaker 1: is the as I talked about so many times, stalkers
36:21
Speaker 1: that they take like little bits and pieces of a connection.
36:24
Speaker 1: Maybe they just see an image of somebody or a
36:27
Speaker 1: high school or walking down the hallway, and they fantasize
36:30
Speaker 1: an entire relationship with that person, and then because that
36:34
Speaker 1: person's not responding, that person may not even know that
36:36
Speaker 1: he existed. Then they get stuck in these profound feelings
36:40
Speaker 1: of rejection, which then give with a crush on this teacher, Nancy.
36:45
Speaker 1: Isn't it kind of creepy that everyone knew about it?
36:47
Speaker 1: I mean, both high school and middle aged boys have
36:50
Speaker 1: crushes here and there, but nobody knows about it. So
36:54
Speaker 1: it tells me how obsessional this guy was. And you know,
36:58
Speaker 1: the idea that girls i've in one report actually throw
37:01
Speaker 1: things at him, that that's how much they didn't like him,
37:06
Speaker 1: means that his creepy, obsessional, stock rish nature it was
37:11
Speaker 1: kind of just exuding out of every pore. This wasn't
37:14
Speaker 1: a guy that was for hiding in plain sight look
37:17
Speaker 1: normal and oh he just snapped and nobody knew about it.
37:20
Speaker 1: There were clues all the way leading up here. So
37:23
Speaker 1: we're going to know so much more as this trial
37:25
Speaker 1: gets underway. Dell Carson final thought, well, I think they've
37:29
Speaker 1: done a really good job of doing that search warrant.
37:33
Speaker 1: They'll find much more evidence than was listed on that return.
37:37
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and we're going to learn that that air
37:40
Speaker 1: is connected with something connected with a cranching anti Givanni Masucchi,
37:46
Speaker 1: senior digital forensic examiner, what do you make of the
37:51
Speaker 1: computers and digital data they took from the apartment. I
37:58
Speaker 1: was excited to see that they wrote to search warrant
38:00
Speaker 1: doccelent I used to reduce search warrants to law enforcement
38:03
Speaker 1: and help them with the digital data to make sure
38:05
Speaker 1: they had a right if they weren't going back to
38:06
Speaker 1: the judge two or three times, which the judge does
38:09
Speaker 1: not like. But firestick, I was excited to see that
38:12
Speaker 1: because that can be gail broken and with a genil
38:17
Speaker 1: Ho compire stick you can answer you want an internet
38:19
Speaker 1: with you social media, So there's potential evidence that they
38:23
Speaker 1: can pull from that. Also. Computer tower, Oh my gosh,
38:27
Speaker 1: from um you know everybody was talking about you'd expect
38:31
Speaker 1: to see it at his apartment, you know, pictures and
38:34
Speaker 1: so on. Well, guess what you can have digital pictures
38:37
Speaker 1: on there you can have, you know, all this data
38:40
Speaker 1: of him collecting potential evidence on the four, you know,
38:44
Speaker 1: because I mean it's so seemed that was pre planned obviously,
38:48
Speaker 1: and so in my opinion, and so you know, the
38:51
Speaker 1: data that could been collected on there, Oh my gosh,
38:54
Speaker 1: unbelievable amounts of evidence potential on as they can find
38:57
Speaker 1: from that computer tower and both the fires. You know,
39:00
Speaker 1: another thing I was just thinking about regarding photos and
39:06
Speaker 1: digital photos of what would be in home. The neighbor
39:09
Speaker 1: told me when he glanced into Cobroker's apartment, it was
39:13
Speaker 1: very very sparse, Okay. Chris mcdonna joinings the col Case Foundation.
39:19
Speaker 1: Final thought. I believe Nancy, at this point it's going
39:24
Speaker 1: to continue to emerge that this guy had many weird
39:27
Speaker 1: encounters with women over time, and probably many underlying fetishes
39:33
Speaker 1: will will produce themselves, and that I still am going
39:37
Speaker 1: with the idea that he believed he was the deliverer
39:41
Speaker 1: of justice, and that as these women come forward and
39:46
Speaker 1: the digital evidence starts to present his personality a little
39:50
Speaker 1: bit deeper, it's not going to surprise me one iota
39:55
Speaker 1: that he had a contact point within that digital footprint
40:00
Speaker 1: of these four victims, at least one of them in
40:03
Speaker 1: that home, and that drove him to that home. I'm
40:08
Speaker 1: going to talk about the totality of this evidence. So
40:11
Speaker 1: when you look at the house where the crimes occurred,
40:15
Speaker 1: his apartment, his car, his digital footprint, his debit card
40:19
Speaker 1: where he made purchases and payments, the cell phone not
40:22
Speaker 1: just pings and calls and takes us, but people keep
40:25
Speaker 1: notes on their phone and photograph. But I'm going to
40:28
Speaker 1: go to the animal hair. This suspected alleged killer did
40:33
Speaker 1: not have a pet. If that comes back to be
40:36
Speaker 1: Murphy Kayley's dog, that is a money tree. And they're
40:41
Speaker 1: going to be able to take the DNA from that
40:43
Speaker 1: hair and match it straight to that dog. And I'll
40:45
Speaker 1: tell you two reasons. Not only is the DNA from
40:48
Speaker 1: the actual hair, but dogs groom themselves by licking. That
40:53
Speaker 1: means that hair's got double the DNA on it. That's
40:56
Speaker 1: going to be a money tree. It's Yeah. When we
40:59
Speaker 1: hear or Laura Ingle reporting the facts and our awesome
41:03
Speaker 1: experts analyzing them picking them apart, sometimes some people can
41:10
Speaker 1: forget that we're talking about Kelly Madison, Zanna and Ethan.
41:17
Speaker 1: I'm not forgetting goodbye friend,