Latest / The Book Deal / Jess Horn's pathway to picture book publication

Transcript

Jess Horn's pathway to picture book publication · The Book Deal

• 0:40
  Tina: Hi Madeline.
• 0:41
  Madeleine: Hey Tina.
• 0:42
  Madeleine: How have you been?
• 0:44
  Tina: I've been really good and really busy as usual.
• 0:48
  Tina: How about you?
• 0:48
  Tina: You've been really busy too.
• 0:50
  Madeleine: I know you're busy because um, I'm getting well used to now waking up every morning to a stream of your messages starting from about 5am.
• 0:59
  Tina: Yep, you're lucky I leave it that long cause I get up at 4.
• 1:03
  Tina: 30 so that's I think I'll give her a half an hour.
• 1:06
  Madeleine: There's a difference between living in Queensland in winter and living in Melbourne in winter.
• 1:10
  Tina: Yeah, indeed, indeed.
• 1:12
  Tina: And also having kids, I've got to get it done before they get up.
• 1:15
  Madeleine: Of course.
• 1:16
  Madeleine: I think it's amazing that you can find a cafe that's open at 5am to go and do your thing.
• 1:21
  Madeleine: Very, very impressed.
• 1:23
  Tina: That definitely is a, a Queensland thing.
• 1:26
  Madeleine: Yes.
• 1:27
  Madeleine: Um, so tell me, I'm so excited to hear about your retreat in Byron Bay, which just sounds Amazing.
• 1:35
  Madeleine: And I saw you were in t shirts and I was so incredibly jealous.
• 1:39
  Madeleine: Tell us all about it.
• 1:41
  Tina: Yes, um, I just last weekend went on a writer's retreat in Burren Bay.
• 1:47
  Tina: It was hosted by Kate Foster and Sarah Bragg, who are both amazing authors.
• 1:53
  Tina: And, um, They really just wanted to organize a retreat that people could go to, to get their writing done in whatever way, shape, or form that is.
• 2:03
  Tina: So for some people it's researching, and for some people it's reading, and some people it's edits, um, or just, you know, coming up with an idea.
• 2:11
  Tina: Uh.
• 2:12
  Tina: So, but that didn't have a whole heap of workshops and stuff.
• 2:16
  Tina: Like, you know, how some retreats are booked out with workshops and different things that you can do in a day.
• 2:20
  Madeleine: I've never done a retreat actually.
• 2:21
  Madeleine: I have not.
• 2:22
  Tina: It was, it was also my first one.
• 2:24
  Tina: So, but I had seen other ones.
• 2:25
  Tina: Um, yeah.
• 2:26
  Tina: And, and they're great too, for lots, lots of different reasons.
• 2:29
  Tina: But this one was specifically like just, Um, and it was amazing.
• 2:34
  Tina: There was 16 of us and yeah, I got a lot done and Byron has a good writing space for me, so I was very happy about that.
• 2:42
  Tina: So I've already put my name down for next year and hopefully they, they do that, do it again.
• 2:46
  Tina: But yeah, it was awesome.
• 2:48
  Tina: So, um, but you haven't done one.
• 2:49
  Tina: You said Madeline.
• 2:50
  Madeleine: No, no, I think it sounds amazing.
• 2:53
  Madeleine: I would love to.
• 2:54
  Madeleine: Um, and I guess we should tell our listeners too, um, last weekend we were going to record.
• 3:00
  Madeleine: This chat, um, but we had a bit of a technical glitch, um, where Tina's, Tina was recording the episode in her car, on her phone, um, and I was recording the zoom and I hadn't even hit record.
• 3:16
  Madeleine: And then Tina's phone halfway through the chat turned off because it was too hot.
• 3:21
  Madeleine: Not a good day.
• 3:23
  Tina: It was just, look, rookie errors, I think, but we're getting there.
• 3:27
  Madeleine: We're getting there.
• 3:28
  Madeleine: We're pros.
• 3:28
  Madeleine: We're pros.
• 3:30
  Madeleine: Um, no, I would love to go on a retreat.
• 3:32
  Madeleine: That sounds wonderful.
• 3:33
  Madeleine: It just sounds like there's something magical about the idea of going away with other writers.
• 3:38
  Madeleine: And I'm sure having a few wines after the hard days of work that you put in as well is a nice reward.
• 3:43
  Madeleine: Yes.
• 3:44
  Madeleine: I definitely had my eye on the clock for when wine time started, but that was nice.
• 3:49
  Madeleine: But also we
• 3:50
  Tina: were going to Um, and then we put up our first episode last week, didn't we, Madeline, but for a few things, and one thing, um, because, um, as we've said before, we both have our debut books coming out next year.
• 4:03
  Tina: And so that's priority, right?
• 4:05
  Tina: That's super important.
• 4:06
  Tina: And we've both kind of just made the deal that writing comes first.
• 4:11
  Tina: And you think that if we need something done and we've got a deadline, we have to Focus on that.
• 4:15
  Tina: So that was one of the reasons why we, why we, um, uh, yet.
• 4:19
  Tina: Yeah.
• 4:19
  Tina: I'm about to release this a little bit later, but, um,
• 4:23
  Madeleine: he was being very nice here.
• 4:24
  Madeleine: It was completely my bad, but you were very busy last.
• 4:30
  Madeleine: Last week, uh, finishing your edits, your third round edits now?
• 4:34
  Madeleine: Yes.
• 4:35
  Madeleine: So I think I might've mentioned in our initial chat that, um, I'm onto my third round of structural edits.
• 4:41
  Madeleine: Um, and, uh, my publisher, I couldn't remember the deadline for these edits because we talked about it.
• 4:50
  Madeleine: And I'd written it in my laptop when we were chatting on Zoom and I had not saved those notes and then my computer died.
• 4:58
  Madeleine: And so then I lost all the notes that I took during that one hour Zoom session with my editor.
• 5:04
  Madeleine: Uh, so I emailed her and I was like, I'm just confirming it's end of August, right?
• 5:08
  Madeleine: She's like, no, it's mid August.
• 5:10
  Madeleine: Um, and so.
• 5:12
  Madeleine: I was like, Oh, I need to work a bit harder, I think, and try and get this.
• 5:15
  Madeleine: So anyway, last week, um, I, uh, so I was sent a message to our lovely debut crew WhatsApp because Friday 5 PM yesterday, I wrote the last word of my manuscripts, the new third round of structural edits of my new epilogue.
• 5:31
  Madeleine: And I, as soon as I wrote it, I just burst into tears.
• 5:34
  Tina: How calm was that?
• 5:38
  Tina: Do you think was it happiness or sadness or excitement or just adrenaline?
• 5:43
  Madeleine: Um, I think, um, I was.
• 5:46
  Madeleine: I was so overwhelmed because I think it finally felt right, the end, and I'd been talking about how to end it for a while and doing it in a really appropriate way, and I'll explain more when you read it, why that was important, um, but, but yeah, the, when I wrote that last sentence, I think I've been editing this for the last year and it just felt like this was the book that it was meant to be.
• 6:11
  Madeleine: And I didn't feel that in the last two rounds, but when I finished this, I was like, no, this is the right book.
• 6:17
  Madeleine: This is the story I want to tell.
• 6:19
  Madeleine: And it had to go through those two edits.
• 6:20
  Madeleine: Just had to do it as a matter of process to get to that third one that, that just seemed to work.
• 6:27
  Madeleine: That's right.
• 6:27
  Madeleine: Exactly.
• 6:28
  Madeleine: And so I'm still have to go back.
• 6:29
  Madeleine: I'm, I'm actually going to, I've just purchased a subscription to a thing called natural AI readers where an AI reads in a natural Australian voice.
• 6:39
  Madeleine: your book back to you.
• 6:41
  Madeleine: Uh, so that's a, that's a tip for everyone.
• 6:43
  Madeleine: Um, I find it really helpful to listen and that helps me with the time.
• 6:47
  Madeleine: So I'm doing that.
• 6:48
  Madeleine: Um, I'm going to listen to that this weekend and then next weekend.
• 6:51
  Madeleine: Um, and then, um, it should be ready to go.
• 6:55
  Tina: I'm really keen to find out what you think of the AI reader.
• 6:59
  Tina: I know people who have done it.
• 7:01
  Tina: Uh, just get word to read it back to them, but that's a bit kind of, yeah, Robotic.
• 7:07
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 7:08
  Madeleine: Natural AI reader.
• 7:09
  Madeleine: It's on, it's about 25 a month or something, I think, and I just subscribe for the month and it's, yeah, really, and having a proper Australian voice is if you're, my book's set in Australia.
• 7:20
  Madeleine: So I think that helps.
• 7:21
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 7:22
  Madeleine: That's good.
• 7:23
  Madeleine: That is a really good tip.
• 7:24
  Madeleine: Was that your tip of the day?
• 7:25
  Madeleine: Um, or the tip of the app?
• 7:29
  Madeleine: We had planned on doing a, um, a tip for each episode.
• 7:33
  Madeleine: No, I do have one more.
• 7:34
  Madeleine: How about you?
• 7:36
  Madeleine: How's your, um, what's your writing update, Tina?
• 7:39
  Tina: Okay.
• 7:40
  Tina: So since we recorded last, um, I've been, uh, having a little bit of back and forth, um, with.
• 7:48
  Tina: My publisher's at HarperCollins about the cover for book two.
• 7:53
  Tina: Uh, because it's, there's three books in the series and, um, I believe they want the cover of book two in the back of book one.
• 8:01
  Tina: So we're trying to get that done and it's looking amazing.
• 8:05
  Tina: Um, yeah, it's, there's so much that goes into book covers, isn't it?
• 8:10
  Tina: It's like a book.
• 8:11
  Tina: Science, I think it's, you know, when you hear all the considerations that they put into it, you know, colors, you know, font, everything, there's an actual science behind the feel that they want.
• 8:25
  Tina: There's a lot that they're trying to get into this one little page.
• 8:29
  Tina: Yeah, it's really quite exciting.
• 8:30
  Tina: So it's looking beautiful.
• 8:32
  Tina: It's
• 8:32
  Madeleine: science and art, isn't it?
• 8:34
  Tina: It is! It's science and art, that's right.
• 8:36
  Tina: Yeah, as is writing sometimes.
• 8:38
  Tina: But, have you seen your Do you know anything about your cover?
• 8:41
  Tina: Has there been chat about it?
• 8:43
  Madeleine: I was actually talking with my family last night about it.
• 8:46
  Madeleine: Because I'm just not a creative person.
• 8:49
  Madeleine: When it comes to visual things, I can write, but I just have no, no, I have interest, strong interest, of course, but I know other authors create Pinterest boards and will have like all these mock things that they send on to their publisher, but I take a bit more of a hand up approach.
• 9:03
  Madeleine: Have you?
• 9:04
  Tina: Uh, yeah, no, I was quite, I didn't know what I wanted either.
• 9:09
  Tina: And I just feel like these guys are the professionals and they have done it many, many times.
• 9:14
  Tina: So I'm And obviously it's It's fantastic and amazing.
• 9:21
  Tina: So yeah, I guess you could find some that you like and send it and be like, this gives this is a good vibe.
• 9:25
  Tina: I feel like it's the right vibe for the book, but, um, yeah, I think they know what they're doing.
• 9:30
  Madeleine: They do.
• 9:30
  Madeleine: And I think they do appreciate it when an author does provide a few covers.
• 9:34
  Madeleine: And I did do that initially, like very early on with my, with a fan press and they were lovely and said, yep, sounds like we're aligned.
• 9:40
  Madeleine: But yeah.
• 9:40
  Madeleine: You know, in the end, it's up to them to decide what they think is going to sell in the market.
• 9:45
  Madeleine: So, um, but yes, they understand the science and the art of it.
• 9:49
  Madeleine: And I certainly do not.
• 9:51
  Madeleine: Um, hey, Tina, I wanted to ask you something.
• 9:54
  Madeleine: Um, unless, did you have more?
• 9:57
  Madeleine: on your cover?
• 9:58
  Tina: Oh no, that was it.
• 9:59
  Tina: No, sorry, just back and forth.
• 10:00
  Tina: But also one other really exciting thing is that they're printing arcs for book one.
• 10:05
  Madeleine: Oh yay! When, when, when?
• 10:07
  Tina: Um, I don't know.
• 10:09
  Tina: Nowish, they asked me, yeah, last week if they were okay to print arcs and I said yes.
• 10:13
  Tina: And they're going to send me some.
• 10:15
  Tina: Yeah, sure.
• 10:17
  Tina: They do.
• 10:17
  Tina: And that's, yeah, they've, they're incredible like that.
• 10:20
  Tina: Always coming back and forth and asking.
• 10:21
  Tina: And, um.
• 10:23
  Madeleine: But we should say what an arc is, actually.
• 10:25
  Madeleine: Oh.
• 10:25
  Tina: Advanced reader copy for, for those, um, that aren't aware.
• 10:31
  Tina: So advanced reader copy.
• 10:32
  Tina: So it's kind of like a very first, uh, printed copy.
• 10:37
  Tina: So it's not of the quality that you'll see on a bookshelf, but they print out quite a few, uh, at this stage, uh, that they also call them uncorrected proofs as well.
• 10:47
  Tina: So although they've gone through many edits, And, you know, we've tried to pick up everything we can.
• 10:52
  Tina: Certain there's always going to be a, um, some kind of mistake in there somewhere.
• 10:56
  Tina: So, but it's not necessarily for that.
• 10:58
  Tina: It's to kind of send it out to, uh, booksellers, um, and even reviewers ahead of time to sort of get them, um, familiar with the book that's coming out, uh, eventually.
• 11:11
  Tina: So, yeah.
• 11:12
  Tina: So that's what they're printing and then they'll send them out and they said they're gonna send me a couple of copies, too.
• 11:15
  Tina: So I'm like, every day I'm like checking the mailbox.
• 11:19
  Madeleine: Oh my gosh, that's so exciting! Yeah, so that's exciting, too.
• 11:23
  Madeleine: And it's also exciting for everyone as well who's listening because not every book has ARCs printed for them.
• 11:30
  Madeleine: So it's not necessarily a given, so it's extra exciting.
• 11:35
  Tina: Oh, I didn't really know that.
• 11:36
  Tina: I hadn't really thought about that.
• 11:37
  Tina: There you go.
• 11:37
  Tina: Oh, that is exciting.
• 11:40
  Madeleine: Very special team.
• 11:41
  Madeleine: Um, Hey, so I know in this episode, um, you're going to be, um, talking with Jess Horn, um, and I know you spoke to her a few weeks ago and I've listened to it.
• 11:50
  Madeleine: And it's.
• 11:50
  Madeleine: Fantastic.
• 11:51
  Madeleine: So highly recommend everyone read it.
• 11:53
  Madeleine: But in the interim between when you interviewed her and now something very exciting happened to Jess.
• 11:59
  Tina: I know she's incredible as it is anyway.
• 12:01
  Tina: And her book coming out only on, I think it was Tuesday.
• 12:05
  Tina: So about four days ago, um, is incredible.
• 12:09
  Tina: And.
• 12:10
  Tina: But then she had some super awesome news a few days later that her book, Bernie Thinks in Boxes, will be included in the new little preppy book bags that the Victorian government is giving to all preppies next year, which is actually just incredible that they're doing that and so amazing.
• 12:29
  Tina: and recognition of how books are so fundamental for children and they're gonna, so her books are going to be in these prep bags, all 65, 000 of them.
• 12:43
  Tina: I know it's incredible because it's such an amazing book and an amazing story.
• 12:46
  Tina: And, um, I won't say too much about it because Jess, we talk about it in the upcoming interview.
• 12:51
  Tina: So, um, yeah, really awesome news, really awesome for a book and yeah, really well deserved as well.
• 12:57
  Tina: So,
• 12:59
  Madeleine: You and I then talked about this over text and last week, if you, okay.
• 13:05
  Madeleine: So just imagine if your book gets chosen for the equivalent, 65, 000 copies, can you quit your job?
• 13:14
  Tina: Can you, or, I don't know, I don't know.
• 13:18
  Tina: Like.
• 13:19
  Tina: I don't know.
• 13:20
  Tina: I, and I think, I think no, I think the one thing is that you get told from everyone is don't quit your job unless there's not a lot of money in this game unless you're the absolute chosen one, right?
• 13:33
  Tina: Um, but of course that's not why we do it is that we do it for the absolute love of it.
• 13:37
  Tina: And for those of us who also have day jobs that we love.
• 13:42
  Tina: And, you know, studied for a really long time for and, um, really enjoyed doing like you and I, it's hard to, it'd be hard to quit your day job anyway.
• 13:54
  Tina: Um, We're very lucky though.
• 13:56
  Tina: We're privileged to have day jobs that we really love and enjoy and we're passionate and interested in.
• 14:00
  Tina: That's not always the case as well, but, um, yes, what a, what a lucky thing.
• 14:04
  Tina: And it's, it's, I guess it's lucky for Jess, but also she's put in the work, um, she's earned this and listening to her interview.
• 14:12
  Tina: It's a wonderful achievement for her.
• 14:15
  Tina: Yeah it's definitely her time.
• 14:17
  Tina: And I think we talk about that, we've had a few more interviews, now haven't we, and I think that comes up a lot, doesn't it?
• 14:22
  Tina: That it's not an overnight thing for anybody, and putting in the time with writing and getting rejections and being the best.
• 14:31
  Tina: Doing the competitions and not winning and winning and, you know, meeting with agents and publishers and lots of different things, um, is all putting in the time to get to where it's like your three hard drafts that you did, that still weren't perfect to get to your third.
• 14:45
  Tina: It's all just, it's necessary work to get to that point.
• 14:48
  Tina: So yeah, and that's what this podcast is all about, right?
• 14:52
  Tina: It's all just for us borrowing authors out there feeling comfortable with the fact that it is the work, just, Just, just do it and enjoy it and the time, you know, your time will come.
• 15:02
  Madeleine: What's your top tip?
• 15:03
  Tina: Is that my top tip?
• 15:04
  Tina: Put in the work and feel okay about it.
• 15:06
  Tina: Yes.
• 15:07
  Tina: Okay.
• 15:08
  Tina: Yeah.
• 15:08
  Tina: I like that.
• 15:09
  Tina: That is, that is my top tip.
• 15:10
  Madeleine: And I think I will leave my top tip as the natural reader's AI, getting, getting something to read your book back to you is really helpful and I will save my next book for the next episode.
• 15:21
  Tina: Okay.
• 15:22
  Tina: That's a good idea.
• 15:24
  Tina: All right.
• 15:24
  Tina: Thanks Madeline.
• 15:26
  Madeleine: Thanks so much, Tina.
• 15:27
  Madeleine: It was great to chat.
• 15:29
  Tina: For our very first guest interview on the book deal, I'm interviewing picture book author Jess Horne.
• 15:34
  Tina: Jess is an Australian children's author, passionate about empowering kids and sparking imagination.
• 15:39
  Tina: Her stories are full of humor and heart, often exploring the world from a neurodivergent perspective.
• 15:44
  Tina: Here's the interview.
• 15:45
  Tina: With a background in speech pathology and disability services, she now pursues her love of words by weaving stories with a subtle message of inclusivity, encouraging readers to think outside the box.
• 15:56
  Tina: She lives with her rainbow family of four in Sydney.
• 16:00
  Tina: Jess's debut picture book, Bernie Thinks in Boxes, has just been released with Affirm press in July 2024.
• 16:08
  Tina: Hi Jess Horne and welcome to the Book Deal podcast.
• 16:12
  Jess: for having me.
• 16:14
  Tina: I'm so happy to have you here and you are actually one of our very first guests on the
• 16:20
  Jess: Hooray! Thank you.
• 16:22
  Tina: thanks for agreeing to come on board.
• 16:26
  Tina: Firstly congratulations on your debut picture book which is released in merely days now.
• 16:33
  Jess: Yep, it'll be on the 30th of July this year.
• 16:36
  Jess: Yep, so coming in a few weeks.
• 16:38
  Tina: How are you feeling right now knowing that it's out?
• 16:40
  Tina: It's, you know, two weeks away.
• 16:42
  Jess: It's exciting.
• 16:43
  Jess: It's still a little bit surreal, although it is more real now that I have an actual book to hold, which I got about a week ago.
• 16:50
  Jess: Would you like to see it?
• 16:51
  Tina: Yes, please.
• 16:51
  Tina: Please hold it up.
• 16:52
  Tina: Show us.
• 16:53
  Tina: Yes.
• 16:54
  Tina: It's a beautiful.
• 16:55
  Tina: It's beautiful and amazing.
• 16:56
  Tina: And yeah, how does it feel holding that actual in your hands?
• 17:01
  Jess: And it's actually got some like, like it's got little, um, what's it called embossing here and it's got some nice glossy.
• 17:06
  Jess: It was very nice to actually hold it as opposed to just see it as a PDF.
• 17:10
  Jess: It's kind of weird though because, like, by the time you get the book you've seen the thing so many times it's kind of like, oh, here's the, there's the book, like, I didn't really look at it in great detail the first time so much.
• 17:19
  Jess: It's just all the pictures that I've already seen, but it's been like flicking through it.
• 17:23
  Jess: After the excitement of the unboxing that I've kind of gone, Oh, wow.
• 17:26
  Jess: Look, I didn't like seeing it in paper.
• 17:27
  Jess: It's like, Oh, I didn't notice that cat doing that thing before or whatever.
• 17:31
  Jess: I think that's the beauty of, um, illustrator Zoe Bennett as well.
• 17:33
  Jess: She's put so many details into it.
• 17:35
  Jess: And so it's just like always something to find.
• 17:37
  Jess: So that's been nice and different to be able to spot that.
• 17:40
  Jess: And it's also, I'm now not looking at it from a find, find the, you know, check the errors sort of perspective.
• 17:46
  Jess: It's more just like, Oh, look, it's finished.
• 17:48
  Jess: It's done.
• 17:49
  Tina: Yeah.
• 17:49
  Tina: Enjoying it.
• 17:50
  Tina: Almost seeing it as a reader might.
• 17:53
  Jess: Yeah, it's exciting.
• 17:54
  Jess: But I think, I think the real, the real moment is going to be actually seeing other people reading it, seeing it in bookshops.
• 18:00
  Jess: That's going to be like the big thing for me, I think, to
• 18:03
  Tina: Seeing it on the shelf.
• 18:04
  Tina: Do you have a plan for the, Date, the, on the 30th of July.
• 18:08
  Tina: What are you, what are you going to do?
• 18:09
  Jess: I'm actually working, uh, my day job.
• 18:12
  Jess: Um, but it's in the city, in Sydney.
• 18:14
  Jess: Um, so, and, and I actually have like this lunchtime routine of, um, walking to Dymocks in the city and walking to, um, Down the escalator, around the kids section and back up again, grabbing my lunch and going back to the office.
• 18:25
  Jess: So I'm thinking of just doing my usual lunchtime routine, um, perhaps extend it to a few other bookshops.
• 18:31
  Jess: Let's just see if they have it yet.
• 18:33
  Jess: I'm not holding my hopes high because I know that they often don't unpack the ones on the first day, on the release day, but you never know.
• 18:39
  Jess: Just thought I'd duck in the check.
• 18:40
  Jess: Yeah.
• 18:42
  Jess: lunchtime routine that you have.
• 18:45
  Jess: That's awesome to have it there.
• 18:46
  Jess: surround myself by books.
• 18:48
  Jess: Yeah.
• 18:48
  Jess: With books rather.
• 18:49
  Jess: Yeah.
• 18:50
  Tina: Yeah.
• 18:50
  Tina: Do you feel like walking through, you're kind of like channeling all the energy of the books?
• 18:54
  Tina: Cause that's what I feel like when I go through a bookshop, like just getting the energy and maybe it's gonna, it's gonna happen.
• 19:02
  Jess: just such a good place to be and, um, yeah, and it is kind of, I have been like for the last year sort of walking past, you know, the H section of the picture books and going, Oh, it's going to be me one day.
• 19:11
  Jess: It's going to be there.
• 19:12
  Jess: And I noticed in Demex in Sydney that the H section has moved from like the spot to down there.
• 19:16
  Jess: Oh, damn, I put it down lower, like keeping my eye on the section.
• 19:20
  Jess: So yeah, it'll be in the scene hopefully.
• 19:23
  Tina: who are you, who are you going to be in between?
• 19:25
  Tina: Have you sussed that out?
• 19:26
  Tina: The authors you'll be in between?
• 19:28
  Jess: Um, I can't remember off the top of my head.
• 19:30
  Jess: They keep swapping them around.
• 19:31
  Jess: So there's a few but I couldn't tell you.
• 19:34
  Tina: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:35
  Tina: Okay.
• 19:35
  Tina: Cause I've done, I can't remember, but I've got it before and had a look at the S's where I may be one day or will be one day.
• 19:41
  Tina: And, um, yeah, I've been like, Oh, that's a good, I can't remember who it was now, but just thinking, Oh, that's all right to be in the middle of them.
• 19:47
  Tina: People looking for them might just stumble across me.
• 19:50
  Tina: Yeah.
• 19:51
  Jess: you can go to the sneaky bookshop thing where you like get your book and like move it to the front.
• 19:55
  Jess: Yeah,
• 19:57
  Tina: Uh, does, does everyone at work know about your book coming that something?
• 20:02
  Jess: yes, yeah, it's been really um, exciting to sort of share that along the way because I like, like, I don't, I don't really talk about much else, like it's just my thing that I'm into, so it's always books, books, books, and we have like a good news story in our um, section of the work meetings and it's, you know, it's meant to be about work but I'm always like, uh, books, you know, I got a contract or this or that, so yeah, they definitely know about it and we're very excited, which is nice, yeah.
• 20:24
  Tina: you might have a little crew coming with you for lunch on the 30th of July to follow you
• 20:29
  Jess: Maybe,
• 20:30
  Tina: maybe?
• 20:31
  Jess: I know I've blocked out like a section of my calendar between meetings, like do not book anything, please.
• 20:36
  Jess: Long lines.
• 20:37
  Tina: Oh, that's so nice.
• 20:40
  Tina: Um, so tell us about this beautiful book, hold it up again and show us, you can see all the beautiful glossiness.
• 20:47
  Tina: Yes, it's on there.
• 20:47
  Tina: It really look amazing.
• 20:49
  Tina: So tell us, like, what's it called?
• 20:51
  Tina: Give us your, give us your pitch, Jess.
• 20:53
  Tina: is we've got to practice.
• 20:56
  Jess: we do.
• 20:56
  Jess: We do.
• 20:57
  Jess: Actually.
• 20:57
  Jess: Yeah.
• 20:58
  Jess: It's just like the hardest part of getting it right.
• 20:59
  Jess: Isn't it?
• 21:00
  Jess: The hardest part of talking about the book.
• 21:01
  Jess: But anyway.
• 21:02
  Jess: Um, yeah.
• 21:02
  Jess: It's Bernie thinks in boxes.
• 21:04
  Jess: Um, and it's, it's about an autistic character, um, who thinks in boxes essentially.
• 21:10
  Jess: So it's like categories in her mind.
• 21:12
  Jess: Um, so she sort of categorizes her world, um, and she faces a situation in the book which, um, everything's sort of out of the box for her, which, um.
• 21:21
  Jess: It's quite distressing and it's just how she manages that situation, which is a friend's birthday party, um, and then manages to celebrate his birthday party, um, in her own way.
• 21:30
  Jess: So yeah, it in a nutshell.
• 21:33
  Jess: Yeah.
• 21:33
  Tina: That's an awesome story and inspired by yourself or somebody else that, you know?
• 21:39
  Jess: Yeah.
• 21:39
  Jess: It's very much based on my way of thinking and the way that it started, um, a few years back when, when I first jotted down the first few pages, which remained as they are, um, was, I was just reflecting on how I think in boxes.
• 21:53
  Jess: It's like kind of the, the, um, just the way I describe my head.
• 21:57
  Jess: And then I kind of got this image of someone sitting in a box thinking because You know, literal interpretation, which I found quite funny and I was like, well, this has to be a book.
• 22:06
  Jess: So I was like, you know, so and so thinks in boxes, not like this kid sitting in a box like this thinking in boxes.
• 22:13
  Jess: And that was like kind of the initial thought that stuck in my head.
• 22:15
  Jess: And I was like, right.
• 22:16
  Jess: I have to make a story from this.
• 22:17
  Jess: So, um, that's where I started.
• 22:19
  Jess: Yeah.
• 22:20
  Tina: Oh, well, I'm glad that you did.
• 22:22
  Tina: And I, I've mentioned to you before the, the, the, The concept of thinking in boxes even like resonated with me as well.
• 22:28
  Tina: And I hadn't actually thought of it like that, like, like more compartmentalizing and, and, and that.
• 22:34
  Tina: But it was such an amazing way of describing it.
• 22:36
  Tina: And I think it's going to be really helpful for a lot of kids to have a book
• 22:41
  Jess: I hope so.
• 22:42
  Jess: Whether, whether people relate to it or whether it's just another way of thinking and, you know, broadening your understanding of different, different ways of thinking.
• 22:49
  Jess: I think it's like got something in it for everyone.
• 22:51
  Jess: Yeah.
• 22:51
  Tina: Yeah,
• 22:52
  Jess: Hopefully.
• 22:53
  Tina: Yeah.
• 22:54
  Tina: Um, So just when Madeline, so Madeline Cleary, the co host of the book deal podcast, when we were thinking about who we wanted to interview, because the podcast is all about sharing authors journeys of publication, because as know, it's not just one path.
• 23:15
  Tina: It takes many little side quests and alleyways and, and.
• 23:20
  Tina: Yeah, it's, it's long, it's a long game, isn't it?
• 23:22
  Tina: And it's, it's, um, yeah, it's a journey.
• 23:26
  Tina: Yeah.
• 23:27
  Tina: So,
• 23:28
  Jess: Yeah.
• 23:28
  Jess: Yeah.
• 23:29
  Tina: So that's why we really wanted to interview authors cause I know you probably get asked now yourself, how did, how did you get your deal?
• 23:36
  Tina: How did you get there by other aspiring authors?
• 23:39
  Tina: And, you know, it's not, you can definitely see over, over with aspiring authors over time, kind of losing that, um, uh, a little bit of faith in it as well.
• 23:49
  Tina: And, and, and it's hard because know, you actually just have to keep going.
• 23:53
  Tina: And yes, there's lots of rejections.
• 23:54
  Tina: And, and so we really wanted to have a podcast that helped to, Aspiring authors by hearing everybody else's journeys, hearing that everyone's journey is completely different and also be super practical in these are the steps that I talk or these are the things that I did so they can maybe go away and, and investigate them.
• 24:16
  Tina: And, Yeah.
• 24:17
  Tina: The reason why, um, I thought of you straight away when we were thinking of guests, because I, you know, we, I was thinking about your often, your, you were in a lot of competitions.
• 24:27
  Tina: So I used to see your name come up and winning a lot of competitions, um, and, and pitch, um, contests, all those sorts of things.
• 24:34
  Tina: And I, uh, I thought that was a really important message for, um, aspiring authors that you do have to put yourself out there.
• 24:43
  Tina: Um, so Yeah, so can you tell us a little bit about, um, yeah, I guess some of the steps that you took, you know, before you got your, your contract with, uh, with Things and Foxes, what were some of the ways got in front of publishers and got your work out there?
• 25:04
  Jess: get in front of publishers.
• 25:05
  Jess: Um, yeah.
• 25:06
  Jess: I mean, I guess the competitions are one, one part of it because, you know, there's, if you do manage to get, you know, come a place in the competition, um, some of them do like the prizes, you know, you get to show your work to the publisher or whatever.
• 25:22
  Jess: So that is a good way, but also it's.
• 25:24
  Jess: You know, the odds aren't great.
• 25:26
  Jess: Um, you know, I think the competitions are great if you win, but also just fun to be a part of because, um, it's kind of this sense of community about the excitement of waiting for the announcement and cheering people on and that sort of thing.
• 25:39
  Jess: So I think like, and also, I guess, whilst they don't always get you in front of publishers, they do give you.
• 25:46
  Jess: Practice at doing things.
• 25:47
  Jess: Um, like for example, pitch it.
• 25:49
  Jess: I find each year is a fantastic competition because they're really great guidelines on how to write a pitch.
• 25:55
  Jess: Um, and, and, um, gives you practice that sort of really honing that skill.
• 26:00
  Jess: So, you know, there's great reasons to do competitions.
• 26:03
  Jess: Um, in terms of getting in front of publishers, I think social media, like indirectly, like just putting yourself out there so that if you do sort of pitch something to a publisher and they like, Then you're there and you're active and you're engaging in the community.
• 26:17
  Jess: Um, and also, um, I mean, the way that I've got the contracts that I've got, cause I've got three at the moment, um, were not through slash piles.
• 26:27
  Jess: Um, unfortunately I'd like to have some faith in the slash pile, but so far has not, um, produced a contract for me.
• 26:34
  Jess: But, um, the first one was through the CYA conference, um, editor assessments.
• 26:40
  Jess: And then the next two were through, um, the Australian Society of Authors, um, literary speed dating.
• 26:48
  Jess: So they were, they were my two ways of getting in front of publishers, but yeah, I mean everyone's story is different.
• 26:52
  Jess: So it's just a matter of having the right story at the right time with the right person, I think.
• 26:57
  Jess: Yeah.
• 26:58
  Tina: yeah, that's true.
• 26:59
  Tina: It's, it's all this, yeah, everything has to align still, but if they're not seeing it in the first place, because The slush piles are very big Um, then nothing can align for them.
• 27:12
  Tina: They just don't even know it exists.
• 27:14
  Tina: Um, yes, I just did four assessments through the CYA conference so, so they're amazing too, just to get that feedback.
• 27:24
  Tina: So I agree with that one.
• 27:26
  Tina: Um, and I've heard a lot about the speed, um, dating.
• 27:29
  Tina: I haven't done that myself, but.
• 27:31
  Tina: meant to be really great with the ASA.
• 27:33
  Tina: So,
• 27:33
  Jess: Yeah, I found that good.
• 27:35
  Jess: Oh, sorry.
• 27:35
  Jess: The other, the other one I did recently for the first time was, um, Kidlit Vic.
• 27:39
  Jess: They have the, um, the pitch sessions and the, I think it was like Up Close and Personal.
• 27:44
  Jess: They were called sessions as well as publishers.
• 27:46
  Jess: So that's another, another way which, um, I know people use and I've done once now.
• 27:50
  Jess: So,
• 27:50
  Tina: yeah, yeah.
• 27:51
  Tina: And, um, did you get some good feedback from that?
• 27:55
  Jess: Yeah, I mean, I met with, uh, so it was a different format.
• 27:58
  Jess: Um, that one to the other two in that you're meeting with two publishers at the same time.
• 28:02
  Jess: So that was interesting to try and work out what to pitch.
• 28:04
  Jess: Cause the two that I had were quite different.
• 28:06
  Jess: Um, in terms of like, when I was looking at my stories, I was like, well, one usually picture, uh, Does picture books only, but I had a genie of fiction.
• 28:13
  Jess: I wanted to fix it.
• 28:14
  Jess: Yeah, but it was, it was good because they both had input on, on my story.
• 28:18
  Jess: Um, and it got some really good feedback that was helpful in understanding where my book sort of would sit or not sit in the market.
• 28:25
  Jess: Um, so yeah, um, that one I didn't end up getting to submit my story.
• 28:30
  Jess: Um, but yeah, I think it's still good to just get your face and name out there and chat and show that you're motivated.
• 28:38
  Jess: Um, yeah, to succeed, I guess.
• 28:41
  Tina: Yeah, it's
• 28:41
  Jess: a bit more effort to do that than the slush pile, so it's probably more likely that you'll be noticed or remembered, I guess.
• 28:48
  Jess: That's my assumptions.
• 28:49
  Tina: Yeah.
• 28:49
  Tina: No, I think it's right.
• 28:50
  Tina: And it's, um, connecting and making that and networking too, right?
• 28:54
  Tina: It's sort of, yeah, understanding and it gives you a bit more of an idea of what that particular publisher is looking for, I suppose, in the future.
• 29:02
  Tina: So, you know
• 29:03
  Jess: Yeah, it does.
• 29:06
  Jess: Yeah, definitely.
• 29:06
  Jess: They'll, you know, having, having a chat with, um, editors through the assessments, um, at CYA, especially because you've got more time at 15 minutes instead of three minutes with ASA.
• 29:17
  Jess: Um, yeah, you can definitely, you know, have a chance to ask them questions about what they're after, what they like, what they don't like.
• 29:22
  Jess: So that's really good insight for your next submission.
• 29:24
  Jess: Yeah.
• 29:24
  Tina: Yeah, absolutely.
• 29:26
  Tina: Um, so Bernie thinks in boxes that was from one of the assessments, a publisher assessment that you got your contract.
• 29:33
  Tina: Can you tell That journey from when, from when you wrote the end on Bernie thinks in boxes to, to your assessment,
• 29:41
  Jess: Yeah, um, so that was, um, I'm just trying to think what year it was, I think it was 20, what year was it, it must have been 22, um, the CYA conference in 22 that I, so I probably finished Bernie Thinks in Boxes, um, A few months prior, like I'd been working on it with like, sort of sitting on it for ages, trying to work out how to get it right.
• 30:06
  Jess: Um, and then I sent it off.
• 30:07
  Jess: I did my assessment with CYA.
• 30:09
  Jess: The first time I'd sent that anywhere, I sort of saved it because I knew that CYA assessments were coming up and it was the first time I was going to do editor assessments.
• 30:15
  Jess: I was terrified and I sent it off to two different editors at the CYA.
• 30:21
  Jess: One of them was Coral from Affirm Press.
• 30:24
  Jess: And yeah, she really liked it.
• 30:25
  Jess: So that was that.
• 30:27
  Jess: It's exciting.
• 30:27
  Jess: Um, and then she said, I'll take it back to my team and have a chat.
• 30:30
  Jess: So she did that and she let me know they're going to take it to acquisitions, which I think was probably about, you know, one to two months wait.
• 30:37
  Jess: And then I got my, yes, which was, yeah.
• 30:40
  Jess: That's a very exciting moment.
• 30:41
  Jess: Yeah.
• 30:42
  Tina: So how did you feel?
• 30:43
  Tina: So it was in the assessment that Coral said, I love it.
• 30:46
  Tina: And I'm taking it to acquisition.
• 30:49
  Jess: She said it was, um, it was a little bit, it was one of those, like, you got a bit rushed at the end sort of moments, but, um, yeah, she definitely said, look, I'm, I'm excited about this.
• 30:57
  Jess: I want to chat to you about it.
• 30:58
  Jess: Um, then we went off and spoke about a different story as well, and she gave me feedback on that one, but then she sort of said, like, I'm interested in, in Bernie.
• 31:04
  Jess: Um, but then it was via email that she clarified, yeah, I'm going to take it to my team and then I'm going to take it to acquisitions and yeah, so it sort of happened beyond that assessment as well.
• 31:15
  Jess: Yeah.
• 31:15
  Tina: that's pretty exciting to get that when you, you, I mean, the assessments are great because you want all the feedback, but it is kind of the dream that, that they just say, and we want
• 31:25
  Jess: know.
• 31:26
  Jess: And that's the thing, isn't it?
• 31:27
  Jess: It's tricky with the assessments, because I think, you know, they're assessments, and Purpose is to give you feedback on your story, but also we all know that we go into them going, I, you know, kind of, it's a pitching opportunity too, isn't it?
• 31:41
  Jess: It's like you, you, you want them to take the story, you know, you'd love the feedback too, but please just love the story so much that there's no feedback.
• 31:48
  Jess: So it's like, it is hard to like, remember when you go into it, that, um, it's an assessment and they're there to give you feedback.
• 31:54
  Jess: So, yeah, and I got very, you know, I was fortunate with that first one because I've done assessment since then and sort of, you know, had great feedback, but.
• 32:02
  Jess: It's gone nowhere.
• 32:03
  Jess: So I think if it had been flipped around and I had have done a couple of years of assessments going nowhere, I might've been a bit disheartened by that.
• 32:10
  Jess: So I think it was lucky that, you know, it was my first year doing that.
• 32:14
  Jess: I got somewhere.
• 32:15
  Jess: Yeah.
• 32:15
  Tina: Yeah.
• 32:16
  Tina: And so, cause I was going to ask you how many rejections, uh, you had gotten for Brainy cause rejections, as we know, is a huge part of, of the job.
• 32:27
  Tina: of pitching and getting your work out there.
• 32:29
  Tina: So is that zero rejections for Bernie?
• 32:33
  Jess: Well, it's technically one because I, I, I took it to two different editors at CYA and the other one was kind of like meh.
• 32:40
  Jess: Um, yeah, so it's got different, um, different perspectives and opinions, but yeah, um, corals or something and I liked it.
• 32:47
  Jess: But I mean, prior to that story, um, I had about 50 rejections on various other manuscripts that I've been submitting.
• 32:55
  Jess: So yeah, all slash pile ones.
• 32:57
  Jess: So yeah, it's definitely a lot of work before you get something.
• 33:00
  Jess: Yeah.
• 33:01
  Tina: Yeah, that's right.
• 33:02
  Tina: I think it's, um, extremely small percentage of people who 50 rejections, how many manuscripts would you have to submit to get a yes straight away
• 33:10
  Jess: Yeah, it does happen.
• 33:11
  Jess: I know someone has happened to, um, but yeah, I think that's a common misconception when you start writing.
• 33:17
  Jess: Um, it's like, oh, you just send it off and the publisher writes back and says, yes, we love it.
• 33:20
  Jess: It's amazing.
• 33:21
  Jess: And you get a book and that's it.
• 33:22
  Jess: And I definitely know going into wanting to write picture books that I hadn't, that's how I thought it would happen.
• 33:29
  Jess: You know, um, I had no idea how complicated it was, how much went into a picture book, how competitive it was.
• 33:35
  Jess: So yeah, but everyone's, everyone's pathway is different.
• 33:38
  Jess: Yeah.
• 33:40
  Tina: to talk to you about yours because, um, yeah, yours is an interesting one as well.
• 33:47
  Tina: I was going to ask then, so if you had about 50 rejections, how many manuscripts Was I know worked on quite a few
• 33:55
  Jess: Oh, um, I don't really know.
• 33:57
  Jess: I, I've, I've definitely got like between, between 20 and 30, but, um, I think like I, I could open my spreadsheet for you, but that would take too long.
• 34:07
  Jess: I was probably about
• 34:09
  Tina: about 10.
• 34:09
  Tina: Yeah, and will you keep pushing on with them?
• 34:12
  Tina: Or how like do you think it's like you said the perspectives different, you know You just go and two publishers and one says yes, and one's like, here's all the here's all your feedback on work on it
• 34:23
  Jess: Yeah.
• 34:25
  Jess: Um, some of them, yes.
• 34:27
  Jess: Um, but a lot of them know, because I think the more you write, the more you learn.
• 34:34
  Jess: And so I can look back on my earlier stories and go, yeah, that was.
• 34:37
  Jess: Good.
• 34:38
  Jess: But I can now see, like, look at it and sort of like step back and look at it and go, actually, that's not going to go anywhere because of this reason.
• 34:45
  Jess: Actually, that's not a great story.
• 34:46
  Jess: Actually, that's not really that unique.
• 34:48
  Jess: So I can kind of take that outside of perspective with ones that I've let sit for that long.
• 34:54
  Jess: Um, yeah, I mean, there's still a few from a while back that I'm like, I should pull that out and send it to a few places again.
• 34:59
  Jess: But I think the problem with writing so many different stories and having so many different publishers that are open at times and whatnot is it gets hard to keep track of and.
• 35:08
  Jess: You're like, you don't want to bombard one publisher with 10 stories at once.
• 35:11
  Jess: It's like, you could always move.
• 35:12
  Jess: I'll come back and do that one.
• 35:13
  Jess: And it's like the job in itself to just do submissions.
• 35:17
  Tina: Yeah, it is.
• 35:18
  Tina: keeping track.
• 35:19
  Tina: And that's a really good tip for, for aspiring authors who are submitting is keep track of what you have Open Excel spreadsheet, just put the title, put who you sent it to, put when you get a response or if you didn't get a response.
• 35:34
  Tina: Yeah, because I'm
• 35:35
  Jess: Yes.
• 35:35
  Jess: You definitely need that because you can't remember down the track what you've sent where you don't want the embarrassment of sending the same thing twice somewhere.
• 35:43
  Tina: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:44
  Jess: And it's, it's not productive for you either.
• 35:47
  Tina: No, that's right.
• 35:48
  Tina: Um, but you have two more books, Jess, 25 and 26 releases.
• 35:53
  Tina: Is that
• 35:54
  Jess: I believe so.
• 35:55
  Jess: Yeah.
• 35:55
  Tina: Can we, do know, allowed to know anything about them or
• 35:59
  Jess: I don't know yet.
• 36:00
  Jess: I haven't had that discussion with my publisher.
• 36:03
  Jess: But I can probably tell you that they're exciting.
• 36:08
  Jess: I'm excited about it.
• 36:10
  Jess: Um, well, the, the first one that's going to be coming out next year, um, is kind of, uh, I guess another sort of neurodivergent theme, um, creative thinking, imagination sort of book.
• 36:23
  Jess: And then the following one is the rainbow families thing.
• 36:27
  Jess: So all based on various people in my family.
• 36:30
  Tina: picture books?
• 36:32
  Jess: Yep.
• 36:32
  Tina: And are they with the same, are they with a firm as well?
• 36:36
  Jess: No, the next tour with Hardie Grant and Bright Lights.
• 36:39
  Jess: Yeah.
• 36:40
  Tina: So tell us how you got the Hardie Grant after, after a firm, how did you manage to get in front of Hardie Grant?
• 36:46
  Jess: So they were ASA speed dating.
• 36:50
  Jess: Yeah.
• 36:51
  Jess: So I pitched one, which is actually the second one that they're publishing.
• 36:54
  Jess: Um, and yeah, they said, yep, send it through.
• 36:58
  Jess: And I sent it through.
• 36:59
  Jess: And I also, because I, because I did such a ridiculously short pitch, I didn't take up the full three minutes to expand through it and, um, and had, had the chance to have a, a very brief chat and sort of.
• 37:12
  Jess: And so I was like, well, I've got some other ones.
• 37:14
  Jess: And I said, when I sent through the first one, I was like, Oh, I can send you more.
• 37:19
  Jess: And she's like, yeah, that's fine.
• 37:20
  Jess: So I sent a couple more.
• 37:22
  Jess: And then one of them ended up being the first one.
• 37:24
  Jess: So, yes,
• 37:26
  Tina: That's awesome.
• 37:26
  Tina: That's an awesome story.
• 37:27
  Tina: And it is, I think it's those little chats at the end, when you're not just trying to get through the pitch that are probably the most important.
• 37:35
  Jess: yes, definitely.
• 37:36
  Jess: Yeah.
• 37:37
  Tina: Yeah.
• 37:38
  Tina: Oh, well, congratulations on them.
• 37:39
  Tina: And I can't wait to see them coming out.
• 37:41
  Tina: And are you still writing now?
• 37:43
  Tina: Are you just taking a bit of time off?
• 37:45
  Tina: Are you, got all these ideas or you're just focusing on release coming up?
• 37:50
  Jess: I have so many ideas sitting there that I want to write, but I have to say I've really struggled to write anything this year whilst I know that this launch for Bernie is pending.
• 38:01
  Jess: Like it's hard to concentrate on anything aside from what am I going to post with social media and oh I'm going to do a podcast interview and how am I going to run my launch and it's like I just.
• 38:11
  Jess: I don't have the brain space to be creative.
• 38:13
  Jess: Um, the ideas are still there and stewing, but I just haven't written much to be honest.
• 38:18
  Jess: And I'd like to like get back to it soon.
• 38:21
  Tina: And I'm sure you will
• 38:22
  Jess: Hard to juggle.
• 38:23
  Tina: yeah, and you know, it's your debut book as well I think it's fair right to and probably a really good thing to maybe just enjoy that time and put everything into it, right?
• 38:34
  Jess: Yeah.
• 38:35
  Jess: Yeah.
• 38:35
  Jess: I think sometimes there's this pressure, like better keep writing, keep writing.
• 38:38
  Jess: Um, you know, and I, and some people I know like, but you're not, you're not a new story every week.
• 38:43
  Jess: And, um, I'm not that person.
• 38:45
  Jess: It kind of just comes when it comes.
• 38:46
  Jess: And sometimes that I.
• 38:48
  Jess: I'm productive and other times I'm not, so I'm trying to sort of go, it's okay that I've only written one decent story this year, you know, hopefully that story goes somewhere.
• 38:56
  Jess: Um, yeah, and I'll get back to it.
• 38:59
  Jess: Yeah.
• 38:59
  Tina: Yeah.
• 39:00
  Tina: Well one book a year for the next three years.
• 39:01
  Tina: It sounds like a pretty good
• 39:04
  Jess: I know.
• 39:04
  Jess: Yeah.
• 39:04
  Jess: I got lucky though.
• 39:05
  Jess: That, that is nice.
• 39:06
  Jess: That's very nice to have them all lined up like that.
• 39:09
  Jess: Yeah.
• 39:10
  Jess: I'll just have to get one now for 27.
• 39:11
  Tina: yes, I'm sure you will any minute now um, I So on a practical sense then and with writing, do you have any, like you were just saying at the moment, it's a bit, it's a bit hard because you're focusing on other things, but usually, and maybe before this, Uh, did you have any tricks or tips on how to get the words down?
• 39:37
  Tina: Um, you know, how do you fit that into your week because working mum with young kids?
• 39:46
  Jess: It is tricky, um, I'm like, I'm trying to find like, I'm sure I scribble down notes on this somewhere I'm trying to find, but I can't because it's all disorganized and all over the place.
• 39:58
  Jess: That is not the way to organize your writing stuff definitely don't make it disorganized and all over the place like mine is I have folders everywhere and none of them make sense and it's really annoying.
• 40:07
  Jess: I'm not an everyday writer.
• 40:08
  Jess: I'm not one that can stick to anything in particular.
• 40:12
  Jess: Um, writing's always just very much been something that I did because I loved and I did it when I felt like it.
• 40:18
  Jess: And whilst it has become a little bit more of like, Oh, I need to do this part of it and I need to, you know.
• 40:25
  Jess: Do that editing and, you know, there's certain things you have to do now that actually have books coming out.
• 40:30
  Jess: It's still very much like a hobby that I enjoy and I don't want to take away from that by trying to force myself into a routine that I can't stick to because I'm very bad at doing that.
• 40:40
  Jess: You know, it seems like I don't exercise because I tell myself I will and then a week later I've already given up, you know, so I don't want to set any expectations that I can't meet.
• 40:50
  Jess: Um, I tend to just scribble down ideas when they come, um, in a note, you know, phone notes.
• 40:56
  Jess: Um, and then, you know, my, because I've got two young kids, I'm not a morning person and I've got a full time job.
• 41:03
  Jess: It's pretty much either.
• 41:05
  Jess: Writing or Netflix in the evenings, I just have to choose.
• 41:08
  Jess: Um, so if writing calls, then Netflix misses out and that's about it.
• 41:12
  Jess: Yeah.
• 41:13
  Tina: Netflix will always be there.
• 41:15
  Jess: Yeah, it will.
• 41:16
  Jess: It will.
• 41:16
  Jess: Sometimes I try and do both.
• 41:18
  Jess: Sometimes my partner watches something that's a bit too scary.
• 41:21
  Jess: I don't do it very well, trust me.
• 41:23
  Jess: I usually sit there with my computer and ignore it while I'm watching or I just miss the insight.
• 41:28
  Jess: I can't do both, I just pretend really.
• 41:30
  Jess: But sometimes my partner will watch a very scary show and I'll use my laptop as like a shield so I don't need to see the scary things.
• 41:38
  Jess: I've even been known to put a hat on so I can't see.
• 41:40
  Jess: I've got my laptop on my hat so I can't see the screen.
• 41:44
  Tina: but you still
• 41:44
  Jess: So sometimes writing is Yeah.
• 41:47
  Jess: Yes.
• 41:47
  Jess: Yes.
• 41:47
  Jess: I like being present.
• 41:48
  Jess: I just don't want to watch the scary stuff.
• 41:50
  Jess: So it's, you know, writing is a protective mechanism sometimes.
• 41:53
  Tina: yeah, I like it.
• 41:54
  Tina: Sometimes I feel like just by having the laptop open, maybe something will happen.
• 41:58
  Tina: Like for writing, like it'll just, it'll just
• 42:01
  Jess: It's like osmosis, like just, it just sits on your lap and then maybe something will appear on the screen.
• 42:07
  Tina: yeah, wouldn't that be nice?
• 42:09
  Jess: It hasn't worked so far.
• 42:10
  Jess: I tried a lot.
• 42:13
  Tina: So Jess, you mentioned before, uh, you know, in the lead up to the book coming out in a couple of weeks, and you've been thinking a lot about, you know, posting and, and on Instagram and, and I Your Instagram, I think, was how I, um, how we kind of got connected in the first place and how I first discovered you with, um, one of your drawings that you did for one of your children in their lunch boxes.
• 42:37
  Jess: Oh yes.
• 42:38
  Jess: lunchbox notes for a while there.
• 42:39
  Jess: Little books and things.
• 42:40
  Jess: Yep.
• 42:41
  Tina: yeah, which I just thought was so cute.
• 42:42
  Tina: And I did, I, one of them that you did, I can't even remember what it was.
• 42:46
  Tina: And one of them, I think you might've even put like 50 cents in there for a brownie, but you had a little.
• 42:52
  Jess: Yep.
• 42:52
  Jess: Yep.
• 42:52
  Jess: I wrote a little poem about buy yourself a brownie.
• 42:55
  Jess: I can't remember what it was.
• 42:56
  Jess: Yeah.
• 42:56
  Jess: A little
• 42:57
  Tina: was it something like don't be, don't be frowny by, by his money for a brownie or something
• 43:02
  Jess: Yes.
• 43:02
  Jess: That's it.
• 43:02
  Jess: That was, that was it.
• 43:03
  Jess: Don't be frowny.
• 43:04
  Jess: Buy a brownie.
• 43:05
  Jess: Yeah.
• 43:05
  Jess: And I stuck 50 cents in.
• 43:06
  Jess: It was something like
• 43:07
  Tina: Yeah, I love that and I did that for my son and he thought it was the best thing ever.
• 43:11
  Jess: that's cute.
• 43:12
  Jess: I'm glad.
• 43:12
  Jess: I like, I like hearing that, um, other people, you, you know, borrow the ideas.
• 43:16
  Jess: That's really cute.
• 43:17
  Tina: Yeah, no, it was really good.
• 43:18
  Tina: And I think that's probably where I started following you from and then yeah, we both entered a comp I think at the same time and so,
• 43:25
  Jess: Hmm.
• 43:25
  Tina: so that's important, isn't it?
• 43:27
  Tina: So, you know, building a profile and you know, some people love it.
• 43:30
  Tina: Some people hate it.
• 43:31
  Tina: I think a lot of authors want to just sit quietly in a dark room and write and not go anywhere near social media.
• 43:38
  Tina: But I mean, it's a, it's a,
• 43:41
  Jess: Which works for some
• 43:42
  Tina: evil.
• 43:42
  Tina: Is that the right
• 43:43
  Jess: Yeah.
• 43:44
  Jess: Well, I think, I don't know.
• 43:45
  Jess: I feel like it is.
• 43:46
  Jess: I don't think I'm the expert on this, but I feel like it is if you're a little person as opposed to a celebrity, like, uh, or like a really not celebrity, but like, I don't know, some of the really big name authors, like they don't have any illustrators don't have social media, but they're just big names somehow already.
• 44:02
  Jess: I don't know how they got there.
• 44:03
  Jess: Um, and so it doesn't matter.
• 44:05
  Jess: Um, but I think social media, um, I don't know, they say it's important because, you know, publishers will look for you.
• 44:11
  Jess: It shows, um, that you're sort of, you know, Part of the community, um, you, you, you know, you know, what's out there, you know, what other books are on the market, that sort of thing.
• 44:22
  Jess: Like, um, but I think, I think aside from like helping you and helping the publishers to recognize you and all that, it's also like, it's just so.
• 44:30
  Jess: Lovely to be part of that community and, um, that's like one of the most important parts for me of writing is like being part of the community, seeing other people posting their wins or the, you know, the challenges and sort of sharing those stories.
• 44:44
  Jess: And I think for me, like, that's been one of the things that I've had really good feedback on in my social media account.
• 44:49
  Jess: It's like, I have, I have a decent mix of things.
• 44:52
  Jess: I've got some funny stuff like the stick figures and whatnot.
• 44:55
  Jess: Um, But I also post some quite sort of like open and honest things about process and how writing stuff is challenging sometimes or, you know, and I, I've had the feedback, um, on those sorts of posts saying, you know, that people really appreciate that honesty, um, and sort of like understanding the, the behind the scenes stuff.
• 45:14
  Jess: So I think that's useful.
• 45:16
  Jess: And the other thing is, um, You know, I really enjoy sharing other people's books as well and posting little reviews and that sort of thing.
• 45:24
  Jess: So I think as a new author, if you're going to jump on and say, and just like post constantly about yourself and your own book and that's it.
• 45:30
  Jess: Like, I mean, that's fine, but you're probably not going to, again, my assumption, get the level of engagement and community that you want, um, compared with if you're talking with and about other people's work as well.
• 45:43
  Jess: Yeah.
• 45:44
  Tina: And how did you find your community on Instagram?
• 45:49
  Tina: Cause I know it sounds like, it sounds like a big task for someone who doesn't, who hasn't started that or who hasn't, like, I know I only just.
• 45:57
  Tina: I just started a author Instagram like a couple of years ago when I actually had some kind of interest and thought I was going to get, maybe a book deal at one point.
• 46:06
  Tina: And um, yes, so it took a little while I think to navigate that and understand, do you have for anyone who's starting out and hasn't quite built that
• 46:16
  Jess: It's, it's hard.
• 46:17
  Jess: It's, um, it's hard to, um, it's hard to build up and I mean, I, I started mine in 2020 and so like, that's four years worth of building and I still haven't hit 2000 followers yet.
• 46:29
  Jess: So, like that, it's hard to build up, but, um.
• 46:33
  Jess: I started it when I was doing courses with the Australian Writers Centre, so before I really started submitting anything, um, and it's changed over time, depending on what I'm doing, what I'm working on.
• 46:45
  Jess: Um, but I guess the way that I've built it is by, Posting regularly, um, making sure that I comment on other people's posts, um, send people messages.
• 46:58
  Jess: If I, you know, I don't do it that often, but like, Hey, you know, I really love this thing on your, about your work or your book or whatever.
• 47:04
  Jess: Um, you know, it's just, it's just about making those individual connections.
• 47:08
  Jess: And I, I, I don't know.
• 47:10
  Jess: I mean, I don't know how Instagram works.
• 47:11
  Jess: I didn't know how the algorithms will work.
• 47:13
  Jess: I cannot.
• 47:14
  Jess: You know, kui and all that stuff, but I think the more you engage, the more people follow, I guess.
• 47:20
  Jess: I don't know.
• 47:21
  Jess: And it's just about putting up content that people are going to be interested in, which again, I don't think there's any secret recipe.
• 47:27
  Jess: I think it's just trial and error.
• 47:28
  Jess: Yeah.
• 47:29
  Jess: Yeah.
• 47:29
  Jess: Yeah.
• 47:30
  Tina: Uh, yeah, I agree.
• 47:31
  Tina: I think it's the engagement sort of, I don't know how it works either, but definitely, um, yeah, engaging.
• 47:37
  Tina: And as the person on the other end of that, when you're getting that, those likes from, or someone follows you, who's also an author, you know, you follow them back and then it just sort of can happen quite organically after a while.
• 47:51
  Tina: And you mentioned the courses through the Australian Writers Centre.
• 47:54
  Tina: Yeah.
• 47:55
  Tina: It's all those little touch points, isn't it?
• 47:56
  Tina: Of, Um, they're making a connection with a couple of people at that course or the writing group here um, just other authors.
• 48:05
  Jess: There's definitely like, you know, cause I'm in a bunch of Facebook groups as well.
• 48:08
  Jess: So then it's like, you know, you kind of follow people as you, you start seeing names and I'm with that person in that, you know, Facebook writing group and you go and follow them on Instagram and whatever.
• 48:20
  Jess: So I keep talking about Instagram because like, That's as high tech as I get, like, I have not gone near TikTok and I don't do Twitter.
• 48:26
  Jess: I have an account, but I don't know how to use it.
• 48:28
  Jess: So, and I recently set up Facebook, but like, that's it.
• 48:32
  Jess: So any of the other things that came in after those, I'm too old.
• 48:37
  Jess: Left this side.
• 48:39
  Tina: Yeah, and it's really hard.
• 48:40
  Tina: I'm, uh, you get some conflicting advice about having a, uh, call it a platform or having a, having like a big presence.
• 48:49
  Tina: And I think some publishers will say absolutely that will make the difference.
• 48:53
  Tina: And which is, you know, I used to listen to a lot of American based podcasts about publishing, uh, and yeah, sometimes I'd listen to them and just be like, well, I'm just going to give up because I don't have a platform.
• 49:05
  Tina: I don't have, 50, 000 people following me.
• 49:09
  Tina: That's just never going to happen until I eventually learned that that's not actually the case here in Australia.
• 49:14
  Tina: It doesn't, you don't have to have big followings, but I was actually surprised a couple of weeks ago at the CYA conference when they were interviewing the panel of publishers that they all, they did say, you know, if someone pitches To us.
• 49:29
  Tina: And we like what they're doing.
• 49:30
  Tina: One of the first things we do is we do check out their socials and see what's happening there.
• 49:36
  Tina: but I don't think it's, but then as I say, it's not going to make or break if you're, if your story is good, they it's, they're
• 49:43
  Jess: I think that's the thing.
• 49:44
  Jess: Like, and I mean, yes, I think I'm a, look, I'm not a publisher and I can only just go My understanding, but I think if you're unless you're, you know, a celebrity author or something, or you've got this massive following on social media, like it is going to be mostly about whether the publisher likes your story idea and whether it's unique and interesting and fills the gap in their list.
• 50:07
  Jess: Um, and I, I definitely think, you know, The rest of the package that comes along with that story is important, but I don't, I imagine that it's probably for most of us, um, the story that hooks them in initially, probably more so than the social media accounts, but that's me assuming.
• 50:26
  Tina: We'll never quite know.
• 50:28
  Jess: No, we won't.
• 50:29
  Jess: And look, they're all, it's probably case by case basis for them and there's, there's millions of them out there, so like every publisher is going to, going to work the same way.
• 50:37
  Jess: So.
• 50:38
  Jess: Yeah, that was a, that was a bit enthusiastic saying there was millions of them.
• 50:41
  Jess: I wish there were many more opportunities, there's not millions of them, but there's quite a few and they all work differently.
• 50:46
  Tina: Yep.
• 50:47
  Tina: That is true.
• 50:49
  Tina: Uh, so now that you're well and truly in, you know, in the publishing industry, do you have any, has anything surprised you?
• 50:57
  Tina: Has anything stood out to you like good or bad?
• 51:00
  Jess: Yeah, I guess, um, I guess the biggest surprise has probably just been the amount of work or detail or steps that go into making a picture book.
• 51:14
  Jess: Um, and I'm sure, you know, like any other book as well, but with, with picture books in particular, like the, because it's the illustration heavy, like there's that whole side to it that I had to learn about because I'm an illustrator, um, and, you know, just the process of.
• 51:28
  Jess: Acquisition, signing a contract, getting the illustrator, doing the rafts, doing the many different versions of, you know, illustrations, cover design, making, writing the blurb, and then finally getting to print.
• 51:40
  Jess: Like, there's so much in it that I didn't know, so I think that was a surprise.
• 51:43
  Jess: Um, I mean, I kind of knew going into it that I didn't know a lot of stuff, so, but yeah, like, it was just very interesting.
• 51:53
  Tina: I was just going to say they very hard.
• 51:55
  Jess: yes, yes,
• 51:56
  Tina: It's a lot, like you understand it's a lot, and a lot of people working on your words.
• 52:03
  Jess: yeah, it is, it is.
• 52:05
  Jess: Actually, it was quite, I mean, so with my book, um, I worked just directly with the one editor.
• 52:12
  Jess: Um, and I think she sort of liaised with everyone else in the team and the publisher and that, um, whereas with, um, Hardie Grant, I've worked both with the publisher and the editor together, and we've sort of all made comments on the story.
• 52:24
  Jess: And that's been like, both, both processes were great.
• 52:27
  Jess: Um, I've just learned so much from, Having the input on my story and I found with every, every bit of feedback that I've received from all of them that I've been able to go, Oh, yeah, like, and improve on the story.
• 52:39
  Jess: So it's really nice, but it's also, um, I think, sorry, I'm, I'm diverging a bit from the original question, but I think it's a bit of a misconception, um, especially from outside of the writing world, perhaps, which might not be your audience, but, um, that, you know, editors come in and rewrite our stories.
• 52:56
  Jess: And I found that's very much not the case.
• 52:58
  Jess: So, um, you know, everything that I've changed, cause my, my first story, Bernie thinks inboxes didn't change a lot, to be honest, but my next two did.
• 53:07
  Jess: And, um, every change that happens, like I wrote it, you know, I had, um, the editor or the publisher to come back to me and say, Hey, we're thinking about this structurally or whatever it might be.
• 53:18
  Jess: And I did the work and rewrote it and went back to them and we tweaked things along the way.
• 53:23
  Jess: But.
• 53:24
  Jess: It was a collaboration, but it was definitely still my work.
• 53:27
  Jess: And I think that's important to know is like, that the editor is not going to come in and like change words and rewrite.
• 53:32
  Jess: I mean, look, it may happen with us.
• 53:34
  Jess: I have to say, I have heard of that happening with other, other friends, but I haven't had that experience so far.
• 53:39
  Jess: And that's, I think that's really important because, Yeah.
• 53:44
  Jess: Just to, to make it known that it is still the author's words, even though they're working with, with editors as well.
• 53:49
  Jess: So yeah, that's very much not what you asked me.
• 53:52
  Jess: It was, if you were asking me about the positives and negatives of
• 53:55
  Tina: Yeah, but I, but that's really a really important tip, I think, which was, you know, another question that I was going to ask you just for tips.
• 54:04
  Tina: And so that's a really good piece of advice, I think, is that, yeah, sure, maybe it has happened before, which has created these, um, yeah, you know, stories of it, of the people's, um, words being changed, but that it's not the, not the norm.
• 54:23
  Jess: Yeah.
• 54:24
  Jess: It's, it's been such a, an amazing collaborative process with both of my experiences so far.
• 54:29
  Jess: It's
• 54:30
  Tina: Yeah.
• 54:30
  Tina: It's like a big masterclass.
• 54:32
  Tina: Do you find this process?
• 54:33
  Tina: I've, I've found the process just trying to learn everything.
• 54:37
  Tina: Yeah.
• 54:37
  Jess: Yeah, it's great.
• 54:38
  Jess: And there's so, and, and even though you signed a contract, like there's so much more to do and there's so much more learning to be done and yeah, it's.
• 54:45
  Jess: But it's so nice to be able to work with an editor or a publisher and collaborate on your story and have someone there enthusiastic about your story as well.
• 54:55
  Jess: It's just such a nice experience.
• 54:56
  Jess: It really is.
• 54:57
  Jess: Yeah.
• 54:58
  Jess: But I think, I think it's like once you sign the contract, it's not all done and dusted like there's still plenty more to do,
• 55:03
  Tina: Mm-Hmm.
• 55:04
  Tina: Mm-Hmm.
• 55:04
  Tina: It's a long process.
• 55:05
  Tina: Even just from the date of, so how long is it from the date of signing to released?
• 55:13
  Jess: Just over two years.
• 55:14
  Tina: Yeah.
• 55:15
  Tina: Yeah.
• 55:15
  Tina: long, isn't it?
• 55:16
  Tina: Yeah.
• 55:18
  Tina: see when it happens.
• 55:20
  Tina: and all the steps, you can see why it takes so long hit, to hit the shelves.
• 55:25
  Jess: Yeah, And like, the illustrators have a gigantic job, really.
• 55:32
  Jess: Like, I mean, I was going to say, I wouldn't say they do more work, it's different work, I guess, but like for me, the thought of having to illustrate a whole picture book is overwhelming, obviously, because I'm not good at it.
• 55:44
  Jess: Um, but, but like, once we sign the contract, at least like we've done the bulk of it, we've got the words down, you know, we might have agonized over that for the last year, but it's done.
• 55:52
  Jess: And yes, there's editing, but it's there, but the illustrators are starting from scratch when they sign that contract.
• 55:57
  Jess: And so, you know, they've, they've then got a timeframe to work to and.
• 56:01
  Jess: Yeah.
• 56:02
  Jess: It's, it's very different process for them.
• 56:03
  Jess: And you know, that, that going back and forth with the, the, um, illustrators and editors and publishers and all that, and creating the concepts and then, you know, the roughs and then the finals and all that it takes, it takes time and yeah, you can't rush it.
• 56:18
  Jess: So yeah, definitely takes longer to make a book than I would have thought a few years back.
• 56:24
  Tina: thank you, Jess.
• 56:24
  Tina: That's all been absolutely amazing information.
• 56:27
  Tina: What, do you have any final tips or inspirational quotes anything to give these, All the aspiring authors out there who are trying hard, who are, uh, trying to just, you know, get, follow their own pathway and get that elusive book deal.
• 56:43
  Tina: Any final tips or words of encouragement?
• 56:46
  Jess: Well, I feel like I'm supposed to say, don't give up.
• 56:50
  Jess: Um, and you know, It kind of, it's a little bit eye rolly if there's someone out there who's like, yeah, but I've been trying forever and I just want to give up.
• 57:00
  Jess: It's a bit annoying to hear don't give up, but it is also kind of true but I would say that alongside, don't give up because writing is something that you love doing and remember that The reason that you're doing this is because you love writing, not because you want a book deal.
• 57:13
  Jess: And maybe if it's because you want a book deal, you need to rethink that passion, I guess.
• 57:17
  Jess: Um, yeah, so if you keep sight of the fact that you're doing this because you love writing, then I think that is the motivation to keep you going, even when you get rejections.
• 57:27
  Jess: Um, I think that's important.
• 57:28
  Jess: Um, and the other thing that I have found invaluable is becoming friends with feedback.
• 57:35
  Jess: Um, that's both giving and receiving feedback because you learn so much from both sides of that process.
• 57:42
  Jess: And, um, and I don't mean take on board every bit of feedback that you get.
• 57:46
  Jess: Um, because everyone's got different opinions and you'll end up just, you know, getting a watered down word salad if you take on board everyone's feedback.
• 57:54
  Jess: But it's about really being willing to accept other people's perspectives on your work and then decide for yourself.
• 58:00
  Jess: Okay, is this something I want to apply?
• 58:02
  Jess: Does this?
• 58:02
  Jess: Sit well with me, is that actually not the concept I had in mind, um, and sort of work out what to apply and what not to apply.
• 58:10
  Jess: I think that's been a really important part of this process.
• 58:12
  Jess: And I think, um, I think it can be hard to hear feedback, but I think the sooner that you're willing to take that on board, um, and consider it, um, the better.
• 58:21
  Jess: Yeah.
• 58:23
  Tina: That's really good advice and advice that I probably needed it here at the moment too, with something new that I'm working on.
• 58:29
  Tina: And yeah, just, It's great to send it out and have lots of, ask for feedback from lots of different areas, but then you do get lots of different feedback and everybody's different.
• 58:41
  Tina: And yeah, I'm in a bit of a space at the moment of, okay, let's apply what everybody said, but it's not always, not always the case and staying true to yourself as well through that process with the feedback.
• 58:53
  Jess: Yeah, exactly.
• 58:54
  Jess: Cause it's your story and you've got to tell it your way and no one else can do that for you.
• 58:58
  Jess: So it's just, yeah.
• 59:01
  Jess: It's just about hearing what's, what might be working and not working, but still, still making sure that it's yours.
• 59:05
  Jess: It's your idea.
• 59:06
  Jess: Um, and you're going to tell it the way that you do want to in the end.
• 59:10
  Tina: That's awesome feedback.
• 59:11
  Tina: Thank you, Jess.
• 59:13
  Tina: So can you hold up Bernie again?
• 59:15
  Jess: Yeah, I can.
• 59:16
  Jess: Cause it's so exciting to hold it.
• 59:19
  Tina: And um, so July 30, Bernie will be on the
• 59:23
  Jess: Yes.
• 59:23
  Jess: July 30.
• 59:24
  Jess: Yep.
• 59:24
  Tina: Yes.
• 59:25
  Jess: Yep.
• 59:25
  Jess: It will.
• 59:26
  Tina: Awesome.
• 59:27
  Tina: That's so exciting.
• 59:28
  Tina: I'm very excited for you, Jess.
• 59:29
  Tina: Congratulations on and your two books, out in 2026 and.
• 59:34
  Tina: and 2027, uh, they come out and thank you so much for being part of the BookDeal podcast.
• 59:41
  Jess: That's okay.
• 59:42
  Jess: Thanks for having me.
• 59:43
  Tina: Oh, that's perfect.
• 59:44
  Tina: And I, we will put all the links to, uh, all the, like all the competitions and everything that we mentioned and chatted about here and to where people can buy.
• 59:55
  Tina: Uh, Bernie's things in boxes as well and, um, to your webpage and, uh, you, if you want help building your community, any of the listeners out there, you can follow me or Jess and well, and on Instagram, cause that's probably the only socials that we're really into as we've just discussed.
• 1:00:14
  Jess: Yeah.
• 1:00:15
  Jess: Yeah.
• 1:00:15
  Jess: Well, it was up for chat though.
• 1:00:16
  Jess: Very you.
• 1:00:17
  Jess: Thanks for having me.
• 1:00:19
  Tina: No worries.
• 1:00:20
  Jess: good.
• 1:00:20
  Jess: Thank you.