Latest / For Love We Heal Podcast / Sexual Orientation OCD (SO-OCD)

Transcript

Sexual Orientation OCD (SO-OCD) · For Love We Heal Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_03: Everyone, welcome back to another episode of the For Love Weel podcast.
0:03
SPEAKER_03: Um it's July 16th today, and Grace joins me for an episode where we talk about sexual orientation OCD.
0:13
SPEAKER_03: It's something that many of you have requested, so I figured it was about time to do an episode on it.
0:19
SPEAKER_03: Um and we talk about, I don't know, pretty much the whole range of experiences that come with sexual orientation OCD.
0:27
SPEAKER_03: And I think that even if you don't have sexual orientation OCD, we talk about a lot more that will apply to you.
0:33
SPEAKER_03: So um get cozy and uh let's uh we'll let's dive in today's episode.
0:40
SPEAKER_03: Everybody, welcome back to another episode of the For Lovely Hill podcast.
0:44
SPEAKER_03: Uh welcome back, Grace.
0:47
SPEAKER_03: Hello?
0:48
SPEAKER_01: You were did we do the last podcast together?
0:52
SPEAKER_01: Um was the last one the Why I Want My Ex So Bad?
0:55
SPEAKER_02: If so, yes.
0:56
SPEAKER_03: I can't remember.
0:57
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, I was here recently.
1:00
SPEAKER_03: You were here recently, yeah.
1:01
SPEAKER_03: So glad uh glad to have you back.
1:03
SPEAKER_03: And um uh so we're we're gonna be talking about uh sexual orientation OCD today.
1:11
SPEAKER_03: And I know that probably like not everyone obviously experiences sexual orientation OCD, but probably I don't know, uh across the board from people I meet, probably 10%, 15% do.
1:30
SPEAKER_03: Um, so uh I needed to do an episode like this because people have been asking me to do an episode on sexual orientation OCD.
1:37
SPEAKER_03: So, you know, for uh I I wanted to do one.
1:39
SPEAKER_03: I want to break it down.
1:40
SPEAKER_03: I think it's really important for people to understand actually what's going on under the surface because it's you know, it's it's an incredibly confusing experience to go through when you're really doubting your sexuality and doubting your sexual orientation.
1:54
SPEAKER_03: Uh um, so so uh anyway, I wanted to I wanted to do an episode on that.
2:00
SPEAKER_03: And uh yeah, so we're gonna be breaking all of that down today so that you can understand it uh and and you know hopefully be better equipped to navigate uh this form, this uh particular theme.
2:15
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
2:16
SPEAKER_02: And you know, I I've definitely experienced this a bit myself at different phases in my ROCD journey, but also at just different phases in my life.
2:27
SPEAKER_02: And I just I think that everyone has questions at different parts points in their lives of, you know, could they be gay?
2:36
SPEAKER_02: Could they be bisexual?
2:37
SPEAKER_02: What, you know, what is my sexuality?
2:39
SPEAKER_02: A normal part of growing up, especially in high school and college.
2:43
SPEAKER_02: I feel like a lot of people have that like curiosity and wonder, and it is completely normal to have that.
2:50
SPEAKER_02: What we're talking about is, you know, it it consumes your thoughts.
2:55
SPEAKER_02: It causes a lot of anxiety, a lot of activation.
2:58
SPEAKER_02: It's maybe, I just find it co-occurring with ROCD a lot because um, as I'm as we will talk about, it is connected to that.
3:07
SPEAKER_02: Am I living my most authentic life, my most optimal life, whatever your kind of thought brand about this is?
3:15
SPEAKER_02: Um but yeah, it's a normal thing.
3:17
SPEAKER_02: And it just gets really exacerbated in those of us with these tendencies.
3:22
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
3:24
SPEAKER_03: So, so so what is it?
3:25
SPEAKER_03: So, so those of you with sexual orientation OCD, you know, it's thoughts like what if I'm gay?
3:32
SPEAKER_03: What if I'm straight?
3:34
SPEAKER_03: What if I'm attracted to the opposite sex?
3:38
SPEAKER_03: You know, what if I need to leave my partner and explore sexual encounters with a different gender or whatever, so that I can uh so it can see if I am I am more into one or the other, and so that I am more living my truth or I am more living my authentic life, right?
4:00
SPEAKER_03: And um, and you know, this can show up, like when these thoughts show up, um, it act it activates these obsessive parts of us that are on an incessant hunt for certainty to avoid making a mistake, living a lie, uh, or or hurting and inevitably hurting our partner.
4:20
SPEAKER_03: So the sexual orientation OCD is similar to any other theme because the the thought comes up and then we start to ruminate around whether we are uh gay or straight or whatever, uh, in an attempt to avoid making a mistake that would lead to us hurting someone and then ultimately being bad.
4:41
SPEAKER_03: And what I what an interesting thing that I've started to to uh to like a theme that's been coming up that for some reason I just it just wasn't fully apparent to me.
4:54
SPEAKER_03: But and I I feel a little bit silly for not recognizing this sooner with people, but it's this whole thing around not living authentically, living a lie.
5:06
SPEAKER_03: And and what what I've started to learn, and this is just from feedback from people and from working with people, is that and this goes back to parentification, like Grace and I, you know, we always come back to parentification.
5:21
SPEAKER_03: It's we never got the chance to find out who we were as individual, uh um, independent, you know, authentic authentic selves, because we were constantly feeling like we needed to sacrifice our authenticity, as Gabor Mate would say, we sacrifice our authenticity for attachment, which means we had to uh we felt controlled or we felt you know engulfed or we felt smothered by the needs of a parent.
5:54
SPEAKER_03: We felt like we needed to be somebody else in order to be accepted.
5:57
SPEAKER_03: We weren't allowed to make decisions for ourselves.
6:00
SPEAKER_03: Our parents always knew his best, whatever it is.
6:03
SPEAKER_03: We were limited in our capacity to make choices for ourselves.
6:08
SPEAKER_03: Now we have this incredible resistance to anything in our life that might go against us being freely us.
6:19
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
6:20
SPEAKER_02: And this is just, I wonder what you think about this, Alex.
6:24
SPEAKER_02: This is just coming up for me as you were talking that there's there is a shame that is put upon us, right?
6:34
SPEAKER_02: When I talk about shame, it's always going to be an external force.
6:37
SPEAKER_02: Like shame is coming from somewhere.
6:40
SPEAKER_02: You weren't born with it, right?
6:41
SPEAKER_02: It was put upon you by friends, maybe family, maybe society.
6:47
SPEAKER_02: Social media is really big on this.
6:49
SPEAKER_02: On if you are not living your truth, your authentic life, your true self, all these terms being thrown around just exacerbates this because it puts a layer of shame over it.
7:03
SPEAKER_02: If you are not living your authentic truth, then you are bad.
7:08
SPEAKER_02: When the truth is here, right?
7:12
SPEAKER_02: Your authentic self, authentic truth.
7:15
SPEAKER_02: If you're not watching the video, I'm doing quotes with my fingers, is ever changing.
7:21
SPEAKER_02: It is defined by you and it does not have a specific set of conditions like society and others that put shame on you would make you think it needs, right?
7:32
SPEAKER_02: Your quote, authentic self might be very different as a college age person to a 40-year-old person.
7:41
SPEAKER_02: That is huge, that's human life, that's humanity, right?
7:43
SPEAKER_02: Like I have friends who identify as bisexual, for example, and are married to men, very happily married to men.
7:50
SPEAKER_02: And they used to only date women.
7:52
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's just like it, it's that version of you is gonna be ever changing.
7:57
SPEAKER_02: And what I've noticed in clients is there is a part of them.
8:02
SPEAKER_02: There's a part of you, there might be a part of you that doesn't like that uncertainty, that doesn't like the truth that you will be ever changing, wants to know exactly who you are right now, and you're gonna be that way forever.
8:17
SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
8:17
SPEAKER_02: Like that there's just that that quality to this, I think the shame layer, but also the um the need for certainty.
8:26
SPEAKER_02: It's all connected.
8:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
8:28
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
8:28
SPEAKER_03: That's another huge thing, is this need like like I I did a podcast with uh with someone um uh last week or the week before, and it uh it didn't record properly, but so I I have to go back and chop it up.
8:45
SPEAKER_03: It's gonna take a while.
8:47
SPEAKER_03: Um, but Grace, are you still with me?
8:51
SPEAKER_01: I am.
8:51
SPEAKER_01: Can you hear me okay?
8:52
SPEAKER_01: I know my video is choppy for sure.
8:54
SPEAKER_01: Is it your video or is my video fine?
8:57
SPEAKER_01: Your video looks fine to me.
8:59
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
8:59
SPEAKER_01: Um as long as I think as long as you can hear me, I think we're good.
9:03
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
9:03
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
9:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
9:04
SPEAKER_03: Um, so so I I did a I did a podcast with someone the other week, uh, and uh and anyway, I have to go back and edit it, but uh, but they were talking about uh their experience with sexual orientation OCD, and they said something really interesting, which is what you're saying, Grace, is that they so they're they're bisexual, uh, I think if I'm recalling properly.
9:27
SPEAKER_03: And what what they said is that having the nuance of both is and not being able to decide one way or another for sure is in itself debilitating because the mind, the the the OCD mind or the anxious mind wants such clear, clear, rigid rules and and ways of showing up that it, you know, like the because we're so adverse to the idea of getting it wrong or not, you're right, that we we want one way or the other.
10:09
SPEAKER_03: We're not comfortable with multiple options.
10:13
SPEAKER_02: Um that's right, because right or wrong depends on specific options.
10:18
SPEAKER_02: This is the right one or this is the wrong one.
10:21
SPEAKER_02: So this really opens up a greater, I mean, I guess, yeah, I guess this is a positive thing about it.
10:27
SPEAKER_02: Is it really opens you up to a greater level of healing when you start to work on this because you're gonna realize that it's actually about that rigidity of that part, that need for right or wrong.
10:39
SPEAKER_02: Because maybe, and I know we always go back to parentification, I know it's not everyone's story, but for example, maybe if you're wrong, it wasn't safe.
10:49
SPEAKER_02: You, you know, love was withdrawn from you.
10:51
SPEAKER_02: Your parent treated you, yelled at you, whatever, you know, or or ignored you, or made you feel like you weren't good, right?
11:00
SPEAKER_02: So, so the right or wrong thing is just a safety thing.
11:04
SPEAKER_02: It's just a young part of you that is like, oh no, no, no, being wrong is unsafe.
11:10
SPEAKER_02: And in order for something to be right or wrong, there has to be two or more concrete options.
11:15
SPEAKER_02: And the reality of life is that it's not that way, right?
11:19
SPEAKER_02: Those of you who have done CBT, um, which I know many of our listeners have done at some point, you may have talked about black and white thinking.
11:27
SPEAKER_02: And this is this is that's what I'm talking about here.
11:29
SPEAKER_03: I'm just bringing distortion, right?
11:31
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I'm just bringing another layer to it.
11:33
SPEAKER_02: Black and white thinking, right or wrong, it has to be one of those two.
11:37
SPEAKER_02: When the truth, which is painful and scary for some of our parts, right, is that that doesn't really exist.
11:43
SPEAKER_02: It's kind of ever flowing.
11:45
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
11:46
SPEAKER_03: Exactly, right?
11:48
SPEAKER_03: So so there's um, what was I gonna say?
11:54
SPEAKER_03: Um so really what what the what the uh what what it becomes is the pr the practice is just to just to enter this in uh is instead of choosing right, instead of trying to choose what you believe is right, the practice is feeling what it feels like to live in the gray zone.
12:27
SPEAKER_03: What does it feel like in your body when you don't have a clear answer?
12:35
SPEAKER_03: That's the practice.
12:36
SPEAKER_03: Shifting the focus uh away.
12:40
SPEAKER_03: Can you hear my air conditioner?
12:43
SPEAKER_01: No.
12:44
SPEAKER_03: Oh, good.
12:44
SPEAKER_03: Okay, you're good.
12:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:48
SPEAKER_03: Squirrel moment, squirrel moment.
12:50
SPEAKER_02: We've got background noise, both of us.
12:52
SPEAKER_03: We do, we do.
12:53
SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's hot, right?
12:55
SPEAKER_03: And geez, so anyway, but but it's shifting the focus when you start to go into am I in the right relationship?
13:02
SPEAKER_03: Am I, you know, is this right?
13:04
SPEAKER_03: Should I be with this?
13:05
SPEAKER_03: Should I be with blah blah blah?
13:07
SPEAKER_03: You know, the the litany of it.
13:09
SPEAKER_03: It's shifting your attention inside and starting to feel what it feels like to not have a clear answer.
13:18
SPEAKER_03: And and we want to start to explore that within ourselves.
13:23
SPEAKER_03: What feels so bad about that?
13:25
SPEAKER_03: What feels so what feels so uncomfortable about it?
13:29
SPEAKER_03: And um, and that that's the gateway to the memories and experiences that have led us to be so intolerant of uncertainty.
13:39
SPEAKER_03: So the practice isn't picking the right thing or the right option.
13:43
SPEAKER_03: The practice is exploring yourself to where that, where that need hunt for certainty originated from.
13:51
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
13:53
SPEAKER_02: And I'll say the thing I always think I say this every single podcast.
13:57
SPEAKER_02: Um, it's like a little mantra I have, is that, you know, if thinking about it harder would have soothed it, it would have happened, right?
14:05
SPEAKER_02: Like those of you who suffer from this have probably spent hours and hours and hours and days and maybe years obsessing and trying to get to the answer.
14:14
SPEAKER_02: I know, you know, I I've talked to clients who test, you know, they might watch like different types of porn or like look at people and check how they're feeling or whatever it is, right?
14:24
SPEAKER_02: That it's an illusion that you that your parts, you know, are activating to try to get you closer to an answer.
14:32
SPEAKER_02: It's not going to work, right?
14:34
SPEAKER_02: Like it's not going to work.
14:37
SPEAKER_02: The only thing that's going to quote work or going to help you come to a place of acceptance of a little bit more nuance, a little bit more ease, less intrusive thoughts and anxiety is exactly what Alex said is sitting with the feeling of being in the in between and focusing on that and why that for you feels unsafe, uncomfortable, unbearable for many of you, right?
15:00
SPEAKER_02: The the think the the like if I think about it hard enough or if I feel, if I experiment with other people, if I with with the same sex or opposite sex, if I get enough evidence, I'll know is an illusion.
15:14
SPEAKER_02: Just like it is with ROCD.
15:16
SPEAKER_02: It's not, it's not gonna happen.
15:18
SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna happen.
15:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's not gonna happen, which some parts might not react well to that, right?
15:23
SPEAKER_02: So just hold them in that.
15:25
SPEAKER_02: If you, when I said that, had a reaction of maybe grief, maybe anxiety, maybe pain, that is what we have to sit with.
15:33
SPEAKER_03: Um when you can be with it in curiosity and you can hold space for the feelings, you get better at, you know.
15:47
SPEAKER_03: I mean, we would use IFS for that, right?
15:49
SPEAKER_03: We would connect to the protective part of you who is adverse to uncertainty.
15:54
SPEAKER_03: We would understand what its protective role is and what it's trying to do for you.
15:58
SPEAKER_03: You would befriend it.
16:00
SPEAKER_03: So we bring curiosity to it, and it will share with us why it's trying to protect us and what it's trying to protect us from.
16:06
SPEAKER_03: And it might say things like making a mistake, be failing, being wrong.
16:11
SPEAKER_03: And then at some point, I mean, once it starts telling you those things, it's sort of telling you what the wound is wrongness, badness, um, failure.
16:20
SPEAKER_03: And that's where the that's where we can go in and we can actually hold space with for the memories and experiences that led to the to that reality in the first place.
16:31
SPEAKER_03: And when we heal those memories or those inner wounded inner parts, then then the need for certainty relaxes, right?
16:38
SPEAKER_03: And then there's more room for nuance.
16:40
SPEAKER_03: So I mean, it it's more than just sitting with it.
16:42
SPEAKER_03: Like, I don't, I don't love like the advice of just sit with your feelings, although that is how it starts, like just sitting with it is how it starts.
16:49
SPEAKER_03: But there is actually a structured thing that we guide people through um to where you can actually heal from from the uh from the the those experiences.
17:00
SPEAKER_03: Now, uh if you want to do this, if you want to um, if you want it to sort of gain access to the practices and the tools and the the lessons, and also uh, you know, um get get access to us with with bi-weekly or sorry, weekly now support groups, uh sign up for the membership.
17:24
SPEAKER_03: Uh 37 bucks a month.
17:25
SPEAKER_03: You get access to everything that you need to work through a relationship OCD that includes sexual orientation OCD.
17:32
SPEAKER_03: Um and uh and Grace and I are in there.
17:35
SPEAKER_03: And yeah, so uh it's a pretty good deal.
17:38
SPEAKER_03: 37 bucks a month, weekly support groups, uh, and uh and a 12-hour comprehensive course for healing relationship OCD.
17:46
SPEAKER_03: Figure that's a good place to put that in here.
17:48
SPEAKER_03: But um, so that's the practice.
17:52
SPEAKER_03: Now, also, too, uh sexuality is is on a spectrum.
17:58
SPEAKER_03: So what makes things a little bit more uh even more confusing is that even if you're straight or even if you're gay, um you can still be attracted in some ways to the opposite sex.
18:14
SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, I'm straight, but but there's some men that you know I'll I'll meet, or that I'll I you know, it's it's not so sexual, but there's there's sort of an affinity or or something that happens where I feel uh uh you know a level of interest that goes beyond just, you know what I mean?
18:33
SPEAKER_03: And and I don't the difference between me and someone that might have sexual orientation OCD is I don't go, oh my god, what if what if I'm actually really gay and and and maybe maybe I need to like maybe I'm actually maybe I'd be happier with a man, or maybe there's something there that I don't know about myself yet that I need to explore.
18:57
SPEAKER_03: And and right, so even if you're straight or even if you're attracted to the same sex or whatever, because sexuality's on a spectrum, and you know, everyone has sort of groinal these groinal responses, or you know, we react to seeing private parts, like you know, like I could I could be watching see a naked man and see a penis, for example, and have a response to it because it's it's a sexualized, it that's right, because it's a sexualized right, you know, and more so sexualized in our culture that it represents something that then it would equal penetration, and then that would, you know, increased feet hormones and stuff like that.
19:40
SPEAKER_03: So, you know, and because because people with ROCD or OCD uh have difficulty trusting themselves, have not really been able to develop a unified sense of self, that we can we're confusing feelings and we're not clear on what that means.
20:02
SPEAKER_03: So then we jump to conclusions and we get anxious and we make meaning about it, and then we're, you know.
20:08
SPEAKER_03: But but really when when we were held and supported growing up, and we were encouraged to make our own decisions, and we were supported in making our own decisions, and we were encouraged to trust ourselves, and we were held in our feelings, and we learned to be able to tolerate our feelings.
20:27
SPEAKER_03: This doesn't happen because we have so much room for nuance.
20:31
SPEAKER_03: We have we have ways of we've had that reassurance along the way where parents have said, like helped us identify feelings and what's what's not realistic and what is realistic.
20:42
SPEAKER_03: Is there a monster under the bed?
20:44
SPEAKER_03: Is there, you know what I mean?
20:46
SPEAKER_03: We've been able to go to someone to help us work through that and make sense of things.
20:51
SPEAKER_03: Folks with ROCD didn't typically have a parent that was emotionally mature enough to be able to help us do that.
20:58
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
20:59
SPEAKER_02: And I also have run into um a lot of times this was my experience too, actually, with my own parents, is like there was a over like my parents um at times taught me to not trust myself and that I should just listen to them.
21:22
SPEAKER_02: That's another side of this coin that I've heard with clients.
21:24
SPEAKER_02: I've heard both.
21:25
SPEAKER_02: I've heard that like parents weren't holding them and helping them deal with emotions.
21:29
SPEAKER_02: I've also heard like, oh, ignore what you think.
21:32
SPEAKER_02: This is what you you should do.
21:34
SPEAKER_02: What I think I'm the parent.
21:36
SPEAKER_02: And so that creates a like, wait, I don't know what's best for me.
21:40
SPEAKER_02: I better go outside of myself to find that, right?
21:44
SPEAKER_02: That creates that habit.
21:45
SPEAKER_02: So just notice that.
21:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that that lack of self trust is built by like, you have to listen to me because I'm because I'm the parent.
21:52
SPEAKER_03: Right.
21:52
SPEAKER_03: And and often, and often both.
21:55
SPEAKER_03: Often both.
21:55
SPEAKER_02: Often both, exactly.
21:57
SPEAKER_03: Because if the parent is saying, listen to me, I'm I know what's best, then they're also probably emotionally mature to the point where they can't be with you in your feelings.
22:05
SPEAKER_03: So so you're right.
22:07
SPEAKER_03: I'm really glad you added that in because folks with uh ROCD typically have have one at least one parent who um was controlling or or or opinionated or you know just didn't trust us, didn't trust us, or we became an extension of them, uh someone to be used for our own for their own needs, for comfort and safety.
22:32
SPEAKER_03: I mean, all of it.
22:33
SPEAKER_03: Listen to our parentification podcast if you haven't yet.
22:37
SPEAKER_03: We explain all that um in detail.
22:41
SPEAKER_02: And I want to add on too quickly to what you said about like when you see, you know, you might see another man and have some kind of like reaction, attraction, something that's beyond the usual.
22:54
SPEAKER_02: And those with um sexual orientation OCD might say all the things you said, like might start feeling like, oh no, what if, what if this means, what if this means.
23:04
SPEAKER_02: I I just want to reiterate that like how common this is and how um sexuality is a spectrum.
23:14
SPEAKER_02: And I think that we we l we have these labels that, you know, I'll remind everyone we society has created um to keep everybody organized in some way, right?
23:26
SPEAKER_02: It's just human nature.
23:27
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, your parts, like we were talking about before, don't like the idea of a spectrum.
23:32
SPEAKER_02: Don't like the idea of like, you know, I can choose to be with a man, but I might sometimes be attracted to women, and that's just how I am.
23:39
SPEAKER_02: And I don't have to call myself bisexual or I don't have to label myself a certain way.
23:44
SPEAKER_02: And it's just, it's again, sitting with and working with.
23:48
SPEAKER_02: I liked your point before about like just sitting with isn't necessarily, you know, you you need to work with the parts of you that are uncomfortable.
23:56
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
23:57
SPEAKER_02: But I mean, I have dreams about, I've had dreams about other women in that way and woken up and been like, what?
24:04
SPEAKER_02: What's happening?
24:05
SPEAKER_02: You know, especially when I was really struggling with ROCD.
24:08
SPEAKER_02: That was certainly a difficult thing when that happened.
24:11
SPEAKER_02: Of like, am I?
24:12
SPEAKER_02: Oh God, you know, like what is the and you know, there's been um and and yeah, um, sorry, I lost my train of thought.
24:21
SPEAKER_02: Oh, dreams is another thing.
24:24
SPEAKER_02: You you might have dreams about the opposite sex, you might have like the groin response is a good thing to bring up.
24:29
SPEAKER_02: Do you want to define what that is?
24:31
SPEAKER_02: Is it just like well, go ahead.
24:33
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'm not an expert in groanal responses, but yeah, uh a groanal response is simply um when you feel something in your genitals.
24:41
SPEAKER_03: It's just like arousal.
24:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
24:43
SPEAKER_03: It's like arousal or not even arousal.
24:45
SPEAKER_03: It could be arousal, but it could also just be um uh blood flow.
24:50
SPEAKER_03: It could be anything, like it could be getting an erection or it could be something like that that that doesn't match the situation.
24:59
SPEAKER_03: Um, I mean, it also can show up with pedophilia OCD, which is a way I have worked with people who have had it's less lesser common, but but you know, like being around kids and having a groanal response and just people going berserk around like what that means.
25:16
SPEAKER_02: It's very yeah, yeah.
25:18
SPEAKER_03: You know, so it can be very confusing.
25:19
SPEAKER_03: So that's a grown response.
25:21
SPEAKER_03: It's basically just a feeling you get in your genitals around it if it comes to sexual orientation, OCD, it's with the sex that you're the same sex or the opposite sex, depending exactly.
25:34
SPEAKER_02: Right.
25:34
SPEAKER_02: And I think that it's it's making it's this pattern that we have, those of us with OCD tendencies, to make meaning out of body responses.
25:44
SPEAKER_02: So this is a good time, I feel like, to just insert the like, well, we so we talk about in the somatic realm, right, and in the parts work realm, your body has a lot of wisdom, right?
25:57
SPEAKER_02: We want to sit with your body.
25:59
SPEAKER_02: Y'all, that does not mean, that does not mean that you have a granal response to someone of the same sex and your body is telling you you're gay, right?
26:08
SPEAKER_02: That that's not, and it's the same thing with like, you know, with with intimacy, which I, yeah, we should totally do an episode on that because that's a whole other thing.
26:16
SPEAKER_03: Oh, that should be the next one.
26:18
SPEAKER_02: We should talk about intimacy, but it's like I've had people be like, okay, well, my body um tenses up or you know, f nausea comes in, whatever, when my partner initiates sex.
26:30
SPEAKER_02: My body's telling me I'm not with the right partner.
26:32
SPEAKER_02: No, y'all.
26:33
SPEAKER_02: No.
26:34
SPEAKER_02: Your body does not speak English, okay?
26:37
SPEAKER_02: Your body doesn't speak language like that.
26:39
SPEAKER_02: What is happening is, yes, there is a signal from your body, but your brain is making meaning of it as a specific thing that that is not necessarily true, right?
26:50
SPEAKER_02: So, so I think that's part of this too, is like, oh, well, my body is telling me with this groin response, with butterflies in my stomach, with whatever it is, that I'm gay.
26:59
SPEAKER_02: That's not your body is telling you that that there's an association with something sexual, like what Alex was talking about, seeing a penis on on TV or somewhere and having a groanal response.
27:10
SPEAKER_02: Your body is simply being like, oh, I know what that is.
27:13
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I know that that's connected to sex.
27:15
SPEAKER_02: I know that, right?
27:16
SPEAKER_02: That's just an example of like what the meaning could be.
27:19
SPEAKER_02: And people with ROCD and um sexual orientation OCD just often assign the the I won't say the wrong meaning, but assign a meaning.
27:30
SPEAKER_03: Well, it assigns the meaning that's the most triggering.
27:32
SPEAKER_03: That's like it jumps to the thing that you're f afraid of most.
27:37
SPEAKER_03: So it's like it could be a thousand other meanings, and you're just going to the one that scares you the most that you don't want to believe is true.
27:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and something exactly.
27:49
SPEAKER_02: And the other thing I wanted to add was like I I know that there are both men, women, and non-binary folks who struggle with this.
27:59
SPEAKER_02: Like I've met people of all I tend to see it really often in women.
28:05
SPEAKER_02: And if you're a man listening to this or a non-binary, like your experience is just as valid.
28:10
SPEAKER_02: But I bring this up because women, first of all, are sexualized in society, right?
28:15
SPEAKER_02: We all are, right?
28:16
SPEAKER_02: But men are too in many ways.
28:18
SPEAKER_02: But especially women, though.
28:20
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
28:20
SPEAKER_03: I am, I identify as a female body, yeah.
28:24
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
28:25
SPEAKER_02: I identify as a straight woman.
28:27
SPEAKER_02: And I just, I, I sometimes, you know, if I'm comfortable enough with a client and they're comfortable enough with me and we're working on this.
28:35
SPEAKER_02: I try to, I try to unshame the experience by having I bring humor into it a little bit, and I'm like, women are just they're gorgeous.
28:44
SPEAKER_02: Women are beautiful and soft and have like pleasing curves.
28:49
SPEAKER_02: And like I always, I'm like laughing because people are probably gonna be like, who is this person?
28:53
SPEAKER_02: But like boobs are like beautiful.
28:56
SPEAKER_02: Like we, I can't help it.
28:58
SPEAKER_02: Boob boobs are really beautiful, and that women have like softer skin, you know, wear makeup a lot of the time.
29:04
SPEAKER_02: There's like women are just and so I I've had these experiences with clients where we kind of are like going back and forth talking about what why we're attracted to women and why and we're still straight, right?
29:16
SPEAKER_02: It it's just it's I don't know, Alex.
29:18
SPEAKER_02: It's just a universal truth that women are beautiful.
29:21
SPEAKER_03: Well that yes, I I would agree with you, and uh, and also like there's can be a safety factor with other women too.
29:30
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
29:31
SPEAKER_03: Other women don't, you know, like the the patriarchal society that we live in is this male-dominated society has for generations have controlled women and sexualized women and abused women, and and there is a there is a uh um like I can imagine as a woman that there's a safety in like the idea of being with another woman that really understands what it's like to be a woman that touches touches a woman like what a woman would want to be touched, you know what I mean, versus objectified and and you know dominated and and all that stuff too.
30:14
SPEAKER_03: So I can imagine, yes, women's bodies are beautiful and everything too, but also it's a safety thing.
30:19
SPEAKER_03: It's like uh totally it's a feminine, it's the being in the presence of another feminine energy, uh, you know.
30:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I totally agree.
30:29
SPEAKER_02: That's I'm so glad you brought that up because that is a that's a part of it.
30:33
SPEAKER_02: And you know, there you may have had an experience with a woman, and you know, some people's sexual orientation OCD might start after that, or they might be bringing that up in their mind is like, well, that was enjoyable, or like I had an orgasm or I was this.
30:50
SPEAKER_02: Could it mean?
30:51
SPEAKER_02: Could it mean?
30:51
SPEAKER_02: And it's like, no, I think what Alex is describing is true.
30:54
SPEAKER_02: Like women have um, you know, they have that knowledge of like how they like to be touched, and and it's often very common among women how that is.
31:06
SPEAKER_02: And I I imagine it could be the same for men.
31:08
SPEAKER_02: Like, I think I've talked to people who have had an experience who identify as a straight cis man, but who have had an experience with a man and had an orgasm or gotten aroused, or whatever.
31:18
SPEAKER_02: It's like it's similar, it's like a man is gonna know generally, right?
31:22
SPEAKER_02: Like what a lot of men like.
31:24
SPEAKER_02: So it's just it's the meaning making that we have to not resist, but look at and I and and and recognize that that is what is happening and work with those parts that are doing it.
31:37
SPEAKER_03: And and it isn't black or white, like uh as I was saying, sexuality is a spectrum, and you know, like um, I I think the main thing is when we work through our fears of getting it wrong or being wrong or all of that, then it won't matter because you'll just make one choice and that will be the choice you make, and you'll just live with it.
31:58
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
31:58
SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
31:59
SPEAKER_03: It's like that's right.
32:01
SPEAKER_02: It's it and I love that you said that.
32:03
SPEAKER_02: I think that a lot of practitioners and maybe even therapists in this space like hesitate to that's why I like you, Alex, so much, because you are very direct with with like how with your communication about this, and I mean that in a great way, right?
32:17
SPEAKER_02: Like it's just that is the truth of this, if there is a truth, right?
32:22
SPEAKER_02: Is that you're in your relationship, in your life, you're making decisions and you're going with that decision.
32:27
SPEAKER_02: And that is how you heal from this, is you just continue.
32:30
SPEAKER_02: That's one of the ways, not the only way, right?
32:32
SPEAKER_02: But that's one of the ways that that was a step on my journey that really kind of took me to the next level of healing with this, is like, I am making a decision with this person, and that's the decision I'm making.
32:45
SPEAKER_02: And look, like, there will always be curiosity, maybe grief about the life you didn't choose.
32:52
SPEAKER_02: Because when you're choosing one, you are not choosing another.
32:55
SPEAKER_02: And that is always gonna be true, whether you have ROCD or not, right?
32:59
SPEAKER_02: There, there's always gonna be a sense of like, I wonder what that would have been like.
33:03
SPEAKER_02: That's just human nature.
33:04
SPEAKER_02: That's just how it's all.
33:06
SPEAKER_03: I'll play you something.
33:07
SPEAKER_03: Uh, I'm gonna play all the listeners something that I listened to.
33:11
SPEAKER_03: I think it really fits in with this.
33:13
SPEAKER_03: It's about like mar uh what did he say?
33:14
SPEAKER_03: It's about like marginal like we're marginal happiness or something.
33:20
SPEAKER_03: And uh here he is.
33:22
SPEAKER_03: It's uh it's the guy, I love his stuff.
33:25
SPEAKER_03: Uh is it what's young young Pueblo or whatever his name is?
33:30
SPEAKER_03: This guy.
33:31
SPEAKER_03: Uh uh.
33:31
SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
33:32
SPEAKER_03: That guy.
33:32
SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
33:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:33
SPEAKER_03: All right.
33:34
SPEAKER_03: So let's listen to let's listen to what he just said here.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: You have to be really, really careful with the craving for marginal improvement where people will have a good relationship and they'll let go of that relationship for something that's maybe two percent better.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: That's not worth it.
33:51
SPEAKER_00: That's, you know, my friend Danielle, she mentions this all the time where it's it's not the relationship you get, it's a relationship you build.
33:59
SPEAKER_00: And I've totally have experienced that myself directly.
34:03
SPEAKER_00: And you know, I think it's really, really hard when you are spoiled with choice.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: And we live in a society that's made like literally everything is designed to make your life easier.
34:16
SPEAKER_00: Every app, everything's trying to make something easier for you.
34:20
SPEAKER_00: You're not gonna like Uber and DoorDash your way out of this.
34:24
SPEAKER_00: Like if you're really caring about your personal growth and really caring about developing a good relationship, it takes work and it's slow, and you have to be okay with that.
34:34
SPEAKER_00: You have to be really, really careful, right?
34:36
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
34:38
SPEAKER_02: Young play blow.
34:39
SPEAKER_02: That's amazing.
34:40
SPEAKER_02: That I mean, that is like, I feel like we should play that at every episode.
34:44
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's that's it, right?
34:46
SPEAKER_02: Like this is going to your relationship is built.
34:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:52
SPEAKER_02: Not you know, not sent to you by the divine.
34:56
SPEAKER_02: I don't know, that might be controversial, but but not like there isn't one right person, just like, and that that fits directly into what we're talking about.
35:04
SPEAKER_02: There isn't one right path.
35:05
SPEAKER_03: Like, you're not gonna like like this whole marginal improvement thing, or it it's yeah, like don't leave.
35:14
SPEAKER_03: I mean, this this is also something to really keep in mind.
35:17
SPEAKER_03: We are not talking about we're only talking about like supportive partners, supportive, and that can be hard for people that have experienced trauma because we we when we come from uh abusive backgrounds, we don't know what's what's abusive sometimes and not, and sometimes we don't believe we deserve someone that's kind and supportive.
35:42
SPEAKER_03: So, but we're not talking about we're not talking about relationships that are disrespectful, where there's lying, where there's uh where there's betrayal and and you know abuse or anything like that.
35:53
SPEAKER_03: We're talking about, you know, uh uh good enough partners that aren't perfect, but that are have empathy and accountability, and they take and take responsibility for their actions and where there's compromise and where you can actually grow together.
36:09
SPEAKER_03: Um, right?
36:10
SPEAKER_03: We're talking about that.
36:12
SPEAKER_03: So, so if you're in a relationship like that, there's no point in leaving and finding someone else as he's saying for a marginal improvement of 2%.
36:21
SPEAKER_03: You build build in the 2% if it's not there.
36:24
SPEAKER_03: If you want, if you want to feel something or you want to grow or you want something in your relationship, first of all, look and explore why you want it.
36:34
SPEAKER_03: That's the first step.
36:36
SPEAKER_03: Because we can want it for not the wrong reasons, but we can want it for reasons that might not be all that healthy, right?
36:44
SPEAKER_02: Like, or like they might not end up being fulfilling.
36:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
36:47
SPEAKER_02: Because there are reasons that are fueled by anxiety or anxious parts.
36:52
SPEAKER_03: Like, if you've got a loving, supportive partner that you enjoy, like, you know, you can like hang out with and stuff, and you and and you're like wanting a partner that's smarter, then you want you wanna ask why.
37:06
SPEAKER_03: Because if you want a smarter partner, well, you getting a smarter partner is not gonna make any difference in your level of happiness in your life.
37:15
SPEAKER_03: It's gonna be an ego boost, it's gonna be something else.
37:18
SPEAKER_03: So you want first want to ask why you want it.
37:20
SPEAKER_03: Now, if there's something real realistic in your relationship that you want more of, if you want more intimacy, if you want a better, better uh uh capacity to have conversations, then work on it.
37:33
SPEAKER_03: That's you don't just say, oh, well, maybe I'd be happier with someone who could have deeper conversations.
37:39
SPEAKER_03: You say, no, let's address the thing in the relationship to where we might not be having conversations in a way that I'd like.
37:47
SPEAKER_03: And maybe we can work toward finding a way to connect in a way, you know what I mean?
37:52
SPEAKER_03: You have to actually put in the work to get there in the relationship.
37:56
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
37:56
SPEAKER_02: And I this is making me think of a friend of mine when I was really struggling with ROCD.
38:04
SPEAKER_02: Um a friend of mine who had no experience with therapy or ROCD or anything.
38:10
SPEAKER_02: I was just talking to him about all my fears, my anxiety, what was happening, and he was like, Grace, I get it.
38:16
SPEAKER_02: Choosing a life partner is a big thing.
38:19
SPEAKER_02: Make sure your concerns are fair.
38:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
38:22
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, what do you mean?
38:23
SPEAKER_02: You know, and what he meant by that is exactly what you're saying.
38:27
SPEAKER_02: I was feeling things like smart enough, income potential, um, you know, funny enough.
38:37
SPEAKER_02: Is is is he gonna be a good enough dad, even though we're not even planning on having a baby right now?
38:43
SPEAKER_02: Like, is all of these things that were like that were unfair?
38:47
SPEAKER_02: I I don't know that fair is the right word, but that's a word he used, and I understood what he meant by that.
38:51
SPEAKER_02: It's like, is this are these concerns that are they're not fair.
38:55
SPEAKER_03: They're they're not fair.
38:56
SPEAKER_02: Right.
38:56
SPEAKER_02: Are these concerns that are that are actually?
38:59
SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
39:00
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
39:00
SPEAKER_02: Because it what it was was I need someone to complete me.
39:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah to fit, to merge with me, to enmesh with me, right?
39:09
SPEAKER_02: This goes back to the parentification thing, but I need someone to enmesh with me, be my other half, complete me in the ways that I do not feel good enough.
39:19
SPEAKER_02: Yes, that I am afraid I'm not good enough.
39:22
SPEAKER_02: So the other thing is is we judge people for things that we judge ourselves for.
39:26
SPEAKER_02: So if you're wondering, if you're like, I don't know if my partner's intelligent enough, is there a part of you that doesn't feel that feels inadequate in that way, right?
39:34
SPEAKER_03: And this is gonna be, yeah, and this is really interesting because many of you might say, I don't have that.
39:40
SPEAKER_03: Like, I literally, I'm seriously thinking about it, I'm really reflecting on it.
39:44
SPEAKER_03: I don't really have a part that feels inadequate, or I don't have a part, and I'll here's here's what I want everyone to know.
39:51
SPEAKER_03: I just finished a therapy session, my own personal therapy session.
39:56
SPEAKER_03: I know, I knew on an intellectual level that I had parts of me that had carried this shame of badness, like I knew it intellectually, I never until today, I never actually felt it.
40:11
SPEAKER_03: And I so you have we have parts of us that will hide feelings and beliefs about ourselves.
40:21
SPEAKER_03: Because I I always, you know, I as a way to hide it, I have grandiosity.
40:25
SPEAKER_03: I'm the best, you know, like I'm not bad.
40:28
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, you know, I'm great.
40:29
SPEAKER_03: Like I would have parts that hide my own shame by by inflating my my ego to the point where I didn't have to feel any of that stuff.
40:38
SPEAKER_03: So if any of you are listening to that and wondering, like, well, I don't have that inadequacy wound or whatever.
40:44
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you do.
40:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you do.
40:47
SPEAKER_03: We kind of all do.
40:48
SPEAKER_03: We kind of all do, even if you don't have ROCD.
40:50
SPEAKER_03: I mean, you can't get through life without feeling inadequate.
40:55
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
40:56
SPEAKER_03: Sorry, Grace, but what were you?
40:58
SPEAKER_03: You were on a train there.
40:59
SPEAKER_02: Well No, I think I finished my thought.
41:01
SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
41:02
SPEAKER_02: I think I was it though, I forget what you were saying.
41:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, it's okay.
41:06
SPEAKER_02: It was um, it was talking about uh, is it fair?
41:10
SPEAKER_02: Like, are your concerns fair with your partner?
41:13
SPEAKER_02: You're judging someone else because of things you might judge about yourself or things that your parents judge about other people.
41:21
SPEAKER_02: You might be taking that on.
41:22
SPEAKER_02: I asked myself a lot during that time, whose voice is this?
41:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:27
SPEAKER_02: Is this my voice?
41:28
SPEAKER_02: And then I'd be like, whose voice, who does this remind me of?
41:31
SPEAKER_02: And literally for me, sometimes it would be my parents, sometimes it would be my uncle who is really present in my life, or my grandfather, right?
41:39
SPEAKER_02: Whose voice is this?
41:40
SPEAKER_02: It's it's not like I'm not a person who's like, I know this about myself now, right?
41:46
SPEAKER_02: Who who is like judges people in this certain way, or whatever it is.
41:50
SPEAKER_02: So it's just that's all it is.
41:51
SPEAKER_02: And I know we're we're kind of I think that this is all related.
41:55
SPEAKER_02: We're veering a little from the um sexual orientation stuff, but it's a similar thing, you know, picking apart your partner.
42:03
SPEAKER_02: It it has to be fair.
42:04
SPEAKER_02: And the reason we got on this is because of the young Playblo um thing.
42:08
SPEAKER_02: It's like, are you trying to optimize 2%?
42:11
SPEAKER_02: Are you trying to find someone and start all over, start the building process all over?
42:17
SPEAKER_02: And we're talking only about healthy relationships here.
42:20
SPEAKER_02: We can, if you want to work one-on-one, we can help you determine that, right?
42:23
SPEAKER_02: But like we're not talking about abuse, but abuse aside, it's like looking for someone who's 2% better in this one way intelligence, humor, whatever, rather than exploring in yourself why you want it and building things that you want to build isn't worth it.
42:39
SPEAKER_02: I would totally agree with him on that.
42:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
42:42
SPEAKER_03: Hell yeah.
42:43
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
42:44
SPEAKER_02: What else?
42:45
SPEAKER_03: What else?
42:47
SPEAKER_02: I think that's all I've got.
42:48
SPEAKER_02: I feel like you got anything else?
42:50
SPEAKER_02: I feel like we did a really good um, good overview.
42:56
SPEAKER_01: I hope this helped people.
42:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:58
SPEAKER_03: Come in the community, you guys.
43:00
SPEAKER_03: Like, seriously, uh, you know, um it's we we've got more and more people coming into these support groups.
43:09
SPEAKER_03: I think we're at an average of like 10 people every group now, and um, you know, like even like if you're feeling like timid or something, like I have people that I clients that I've talked to, and you know, sometimes it can feel a little bit intimidating to come in to and be part of a big group and share openly and stuff.
43:28
SPEAKER_03: But honestly, these groups are amazing because like you everyone you'll be sharing and everyone's nodding, you know, like everyone's nodding, everyone's getting it, you know, and like I wish that I there was never anything like this when I was going through RSCD.
43:45
SPEAKER_03: Like I would have jumped 37 bucks.
43:48
SPEAKER_03: I was in school, I couldn't afford one-to-one therapy, I would have friggin' killed.
43:53
SPEAKER_03: And and I I know I'm kind of selling this a little bit.
43:55
SPEAKER_03: I mean, just but seriously, like come in the groups, like they're they're really good.
44:00
SPEAKER_03: And and what we do is uh when you join, I've I've paired the groups with the course because you do the course, you come into the group, and then we do IFS exercises in the group and we do parts work, and then we all share.
44:13
SPEAKER_03: Like, I've what I've been doing recently, Grace, is we instead of just sharing openly like what's troubling you.
44:18
SPEAKER_03: I like you know, I I did uh last round, I did let's do we did an IFS exercise, getting to know a particular part that you've been working with, and then the sharing is what you learn about the part.
44:28
SPEAKER_03: That's and then I yeah, and then so every group we're like working with the part and there's progression and stuff, so you're not actually alone in doing the work in the course.
44:37
SPEAKER_03: You get the 12-hour chorus, but then you get the groups to come and debrief and and stuff.
44:41
SPEAKER_03: So join, come on in, try it out.
44:44
SPEAKER_03: You can cancel anytime, you know, there's no pressure, but uh, but yeah, we'd love to meet you and we love to have you in there.
44:51
SPEAKER_03: Um, if you're wanting to like skip the group and stuff, and you just want to work with us one-to-one, then you can uh you know reach out and let us know, and we'd be happy to get you in for a discovery call.
45:01
SPEAKER_03: Uh, Grace, you've you've you've disclosed that your clients are going on to get married, and you know, I mean, there's lots of progress happening there, so I'm happy to hear that.
45:10
SPEAKER_03: Grace is awesome, everyone.
45:12
SPEAKER_03: Um, so uh we got a lovely team of people who mostly everyone has experienced relationship OCDs, so you'd be in good hands.
45:20
SPEAKER_03: But that's it for the sales pitch.
45:22
SPEAKER_03: Maybe next time, Grace, we'll do an episode on intimacy.
45:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, let's do that for sure.
45:28
SPEAKER_02: So we'll keep a lookout for the intimacy episode.
45:31
SPEAKER_03: Keep a lookout.
45:31
SPEAKER_03: Uh uh, yep.
45:33
SPEAKER_03: So uh okay, everybody, thank you all for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.
45:39
SPEAKER_03: See you next time.