Latest / Come Together with Ephraim Herschmann / #105: Kevin Shird / Author, Prison Time, Drug Trade

Transcript

#105: Kevin Shird / Author, Prison Time, Drug Trade · Come Together with Ephraim Herschmann

0:01
Welcome to another episode of Come Together.
0:15
All right, We're here with Kevin.
0:16
Kevin, welcome, man. I'm so happy that you took the
0:19
time to get back to me and that we're making this work.
0:22
Hopefully this is the beginning of a few podcasts together, man.
0:24
How are you? Absolutely, man.
0:26
I'm doing great today down in sunny Baltimore.
0:31
If if there's ever such a thing, you're from Baltimore, born and
0:37
raised, born and raised in Baltimore.
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I just moved back a year ago, a year and some change ago from
0:44
Los Angeles. So I'm I'm back in in Baltimore,
0:49
MD, the home of of of of of the Chesapeake Bay and and and Old
0:55
Bay seasoning. How do you how do you like
0:58
living in LA and how long were you there for?
1:01
I was living in LA close to three years.
1:04
I I loved it. I loved everything about it.
1:08
I love being that close to, to the water, the mountains, Yeah,
1:16
all the, all the beauty that that God has.
1:19
God has given us 5 minutes, 5 minutes away.
1:24
Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? I lived in Seattle, WA for a
1:27
little bit and I felt the same way as, you know, the same
1:29
descriptions. Like there's so much beautiful
1:31
nature all around this great city, you know?
1:33
And, and it just takes 5 minutes and like you feel like you're in
1:36
a different universe, you know? Absolutely.
1:38
Yeah. So how does it feel to be back
1:40
in Baltimore? It feels great, man.
1:42
It feels great to be around family.
1:45
It's always great to be home. I love to travel and I love to
1:49
see the world because just before I landed in Lai was in a
1:53
place called Tucson, AZ Sure, I spent about a year there before
2:00
proceeding over to Los Angeles, but but being back to your
2:04
question, being back in Baltimore, it's been great.
2:07
I'm I miss Lai, miss Arizona, I miss the ocean, but I get a
2:14
chance to be around family and friends and the familiarity of
2:18
of home is always good. Yeah, yeah, I'm totally with
2:21
you. I love, I, I love, I think the
2:23
West Coast has better nature, but I but home it.
2:26
But you know, my, my home and family and friends also is here
2:29
on the East Coast. You want to tell, tell audience
2:32
a little bit about who you are in your story, man.
2:34
And and we could dive into things from there.
2:38
Yes, so 7 shirt. Born and raised here in
2:44
Baltimore. I am a writer, activist, author.
2:50
I've actually authored 4 books under my name, but I've also
2:56
ghostwritten 12 other books, so I've actually written 16 books
3:01
in the last. Wow, I'm going.
3:02
To when you go to write. What's that process like?
3:08
It varies depending on the person you're working with, but
3:13
a lot of recording, a lot of conversations, a lot of
3:17
revisiting old stuff. For some people it that entails
3:24
some trauma revisiting, some trauma revisiting some ugly
3:30
parts of their life, but but also at the same time some
3:33
beautiful parts of their life. Right.
3:36
Yeah, for sure, for sure. Is there, is it?
3:38
Are you? So when you ghost authoring,
3:40
you're kind of helping these people get their stories onto
3:44
paper and into a book. Yes.
3:46
Gotcha. And a lot of times, I'm sure, I
3:50
mean, even from my own experiences, you know that
3:51
there's a disconnect between parts of your life that you know
3:54
that you want to go back to and parts that you know you want to
3:56
stay far away from. Because going back there put you
3:59
in a head, puts you in a headspace that you know that you
4:01
don't necessarily want to be in. Right.
4:03
Exactly, exactly. And then some people just don't
4:05
have the patience to write. Some people don't have the skill
4:09
set. And then some people and they're
4:12
intimidated by the writing, the exercise of writing a book,
4:16
right? And I always tell people like,
4:20
look, everybody's got a story. I don't care who you are if
4:23
you're a politician in New Jersey or, or you're a farmer in
4:28
Kansas that wakes up 4:00 in the morning to, to plow the the
4:33
cornfield, like everybody's got a story.
4:36
It's a different story. And it may or may not be a story
4:39
that you're interested in, but nevertheless, it's still a
4:42
story. And everybody has one.
4:44
Definitely, definitely so. So you're a writer, activist,
4:49
author, ghost author. Have you always been a writer?
4:53
As have you, as writing always come easy to you.
4:56
That's funny, man, because people ask me that.
5:00
You know, you sometimes you end up in in stuff doing things and
5:04
you're not even always sure how you got there until somebody
5:08
asks. Yeah, until somebody asks you
5:11
and then they, they may, they may need to ask you 25 times
5:15
until you actually remember. So when I was 15 years old, I
5:22
was the, I was the, the, the rap writer for the neighborhood.
5:28
What does that mean? Oh, the rap writer I wrote.
5:31
You've always been writing rap. You always poetry and stuff like
5:34
that. No, just rap.
5:36
I I wrote all the raps for all the rappers in the neighborhood.
5:40
No way. I totally forgot about that
5:43
whole thing until maybe lat like 6 months ago.
5:48
It it it dawned on me like, wait a minute, I had AI had several
5:53
big folders of raps wow that I wrote for for folks in in
6:00
friends in the neighborhood right when we were kids and I
6:04
totally forgot all about that. But my journey was my life
6:07
journey has been interesting man 'cause even but hear about it
6:11
man, tell me about it. So my mother put me in a program
6:17
when I was three years old called the Head Start program.
6:21
And the Head Start program was actually the design to give kids
6:25
growing up in poverty a jump start or head start on their
6:30
education, right. So the Head Start program
6:33
actually have vouchers and you would take these vouchers to
6:40
programs that did preschool and you were paid to get your kid in
6:44
the preschool program. Wow.
6:46
So when my mother was able to get me into preschool at three
6:49
years old, by the time I got to, I'm gonna say kindergarten, the
6:59
the teachers wanted to skip me to the next grade because I was
7:03
already advanced in math and reading.
7:06
They felt like I didn't even need the kindergarten, so my
7:10
mother said no, she didn't want to do that.
7:13
So I stayed in. I was advanced fault as all the
7:16
other kids. By the 3rd grade I was reading
7:19
Shakespeare. No way.
7:21
True story, really. What were you reading?
7:25
All Shakespeare played like stuff that I couldn't even I
7:29
could. I could read it, but I still
7:31
couldn't comprehend it. Yeah, but it was just words in
7:34
your imagination. It was actually word to me.
7:36
They were just word, but you know.
7:39
Your imagination probably filled in.
7:41
Yeah. The the words that you did know
7:43
and the words that you didn't, it kind of just would pass over,
7:45
right? That's what happened to me when
7:46
I was growing. Up.
7:47
It was a struggle because you remember Shakespeare is written
7:51
with a certain vernacular and cadence, right?
7:56
That's not the cadence that you learned as a three-year old or
8:00
five year old 30. Year old man, Yeah.
8:02
So. So for me it was just words,
8:06
right at 3rd grade, I got into a program called the Gate, Gate
8:11
program, gifted and talented education, right?
8:15
And so we're, we're, we're man, we, we're reading stuff.
8:20
And now my imagination is, is really going wild because I
8:25
remember one of the questions being, if you are alien from
8:29
outer space and you saw a football game, what would you
8:34
think? And I still remember that
8:38
questions today, right from like 40 years ago.
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And I was like, damn, I don't I so creativity was something that
8:47
it started to be instilled in me at a very young age, right?
8:53
Fast forward, I, I was doing great in school.
8:57
I grew up with that chronic alcohol addictive father and I
9:01
wrote about this in my first book, My Father was Chronic
9:03
Alcohol I'm. Sorry.
9:06
Thank you. So he was, he was tumbled down
9:09
whole flights and steps, right, like a stuntman.
9:12
And we just get up. And so his alcohol addiction was
9:16
chronic. And so him and my mother is
9:20
separated and divorced somewhere around 1516 years old.
9:24
That's how bad it got. And around that time, that's
9:26
when I began to journey into the streets and I began to see stuff
9:31
that probably a 16 year old should never see.
9:34
Like the first time me, me and a friend of mine, we were tall
9:39
'cause we played basketball. And so now 6/2 when I was
9:44
probably close to 6 feet when I was like I was at least 511 when
9:51
I was probably around 16 years old.
9:56
So we, we snuck, we used, we used to, he would tell his
9:59
mother he was standing with my house.
10:01
I would tell my mother I was standing with his house.
10:03
And we actually go to a club. And mind you, we were, we were
10:06
tall. We were tall so we could get
10:08
into this club. And then one night we in the
10:11
club, this is probably like the 4th or 5th time music is
10:15
playing. The music is playing and a a
10:21
gunshot rings out in the dark and a Stampede starts.
10:30
So me and my friends, 16 years old, we terrified.
10:33
We've never been in an environment like that before
10:35
where you know there's violence and we're running with the
10:39
crowd. Did.
10:40
You recognize there was a gunshot when it happened?
10:42
Yes, because everybody like that's.
10:44
Got to be. Well, everybody, everybody got
10:47
down on the floor. Wow.
10:49
But it was a pause because I think if people were like, wait
10:52
a minute, is that what I think it is?
10:55
And then people start to get down on the floor and then they
10:58
started running. We started to run with the
11:00
crowd. And the next thing I know, the
11:03
crowd reverses, the Stampede reverses and runs the other way.
11:10
And we end up running past the dead body right with the the guy
11:15
had a bullet in his in his torso had a shot you.
11:21
Remember seeing that as a. 16 year old yeah.
11:24
We we, we ran. We ran past the body.
11:27
Wow, yeah. OK.
11:29
And then what was your, what was your process?
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What you did did, did you like, did you know to do with
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yourself? Like what?
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What were you thinking? It was so it was, it happened so
11:38
quick and then it was such a shock.
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And then I remember I remember reading in in in a newspaper the
11:47
next day that he had he died. So that was the first instance.
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And then short time after that, you know, when my father gone
11:58
and me journey into the street, street life.
12:02
And then I began to meet, you know, guys in the street.
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You know, we grew up in poverty. Now this is an era where like
12:09
Jordan sneakers has become a big deal, but it's it's even a
12:14
bigger deal when you can't afford them.
12:17
And so that led to me started selling small amounts of
12:22
marijuana, which led to selling small amounts of cocaine, which
12:29
led to selling small amounts of heroin.
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And it and that whole thing evolved in the something that I
12:37
never never, never had expected, right.
12:43
Wow. Now you know it's all. 16 still
12:47
or how long is it? How?
12:48
How long? How?
12:49
How? Rapid was this.
12:50
How rapid was the transition from?
12:53
From, you know, cannabis. To Coke, yeah.
12:56
Yeah, it was good. Probably six months, a year,
12:58
something like that. It was quick.
12:59
It was quick and we still had no idea.
13:03
You know, it's funny, 'cause sometimes people think like
13:06
young people or anybody, any folks that are involved in this
13:09
stuff, they don't, they don't take take into account like it's
13:15
even new to these folks. Like it's new to that person
13:20
that just got into this situation on this business,
13:23
whatever you want call it isn't even new to them.
13:26
So they're learning. There's a learning curve as
13:28
well, right? Because they don't teach this
13:32
stuff in school that you, you learn it on the fly.
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So Fast forward, I'm in the 12th grade, my grades are doing
13:45
terrible now 'cause I'm more focused on the street life than
13:49
class work, and I dropped out of school at 18 in the 12th grade
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and pursued the drug business. At the time I had like 4 guys
13:59
working for me at 18 years old. Wow, did your mom know?
14:03
About this. Yeah, but yes and no.
14:08
She didn't know to it certainly didn't know to the extent she
14:11
knew something was going on. Matter of fact, I wrote about
14:15
this story about my I wrote about this in my my first book.
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We were, we were, we were one day we were getting ready to get
14:24
evicted and the sheriff had come to our house.
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I was about 17 and they were, they come to the house with a
14:34
bunch of other like maintenance people to evict us and start
14:39
sitting our furniture outside. And so we were like 30 minutes
14:45
away from being having that stuff placed outside.
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She was at work. Yeah, she was at work.
14:51
So she's trying to frantically, she can't leave work.
14:54
She's frantically trying to get money together to pay the rent.
14:57
And I had a shoe box full of weed and money in the bedroom.
15:03
And so I came out with like, I can't remember, couple 100
15:07
bucks, I believe. And I added to the money to pay
15:11
the rent. And my, I remember my mother
15:14
saying, where did you get that money from?
15:17
And I lied and said I'd saved it.
15:20
Like, 'cause we also used to cut grass and shovel snow and rake
15:25
leaves, right? Sure.
15:28
For for to make, you know, make a couple bucks.
15:31
Yeah, sure. Yeah.
15:32
So I did that. Too, So I think she so she, she
15:36
started to get a wind of it, but then she's also working three
15:40
jobs. So wow, she leaves at 6:00 in
15:44
the morning. She gets in at, at I guess 5 and
15:50
then she goes to second job at six to 10 and she's getting in
15:54
the house at 11. So how do you keep track of a
15:57
kid that, that no, you can't, you can't, you can't.
16:02
And that's the reality of it, right?
16:05
Yeah. So by then, you know, the cat's
16:09
out the bag by the time I turned 20.
16:13
And then I journey out even more.
16:16
Now I'm meeting people that's heavily in the drug business.
16:19
They know I'm a smart kid. They've they've figured at least
16:23
that part out. Are you restricted to Baltimore
16:26
like or a particular neighborhood or are you go?
16:29
Are you go? Are you standing outward?
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I'm in West Baltimore at the time.
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OK, gotcha. And were you, did you have
16:34
ambitions or like I did you look at this as a business to like
16:37
kind of grow or do you look at this like, listen this way,
16:40
they'll just make some money and pay some bills.
16:42
I looked at it as an opportunity to generate capital to invest in
16:50
a business that could sustain me and and for my family for the
16:55
rest of my life. Yeah, yeah.
16:58
At 2019, 20 years old, I had that foresight.
17:02
Yeah. So Fast forward another two
17:06
years. By the time I turn 21, I've
17:09
witnessed another murder. I had a friend murder a friend
17:16
I've had. Now I'm about 22 and I'm making
17:20
$20,000 a day. Wow.
17:25
Whoa. Really.
17:30
I'm making 20 making $20,000 in a day.
17:33
So at this point, I'm just curious about this, right?
17:36
The psychology of the money, right?
17:39
Are you spending money like crazy?
17:41
Are you saving money? Are you like, what's, what's
17:44
your relationship to the money that you're making now as a kid,
17:47
you know, especially as a young man, because like, like you
17:49
said, you had the foresight to know that it's your family.
17:51
But I'm sure it was a lot of fun to.
17:54
That's more money than most people could even, you know,
17:56
think of. So both, right, we're spending
18:00
like crazy, but how many pairs Adidas experiments and Air
18:06
Jordans can you can you buy? Yeah, so we spending, but we
18:14
also got the foresight to save. You know, it's I'm in two weeks.
18:19
I'm counting. I'm counting a quarter
18:24
$1,000,000 in every two weeks or close to it.
18:28
That's crazy, but at. The same time, you know, we also
18:31
have bills to pay. You know, we're not, we're not
18:34
growing heroin and cocaine. There's somebody providing to us
18:38
and we got to, we got to pay them right to get resupplied.
18:41
So. What do you think would have
18:45
happened if you just stayed selling weed as opposed to
18:48
getting into the harder stuff? Things would have got worse,
18:52
'cause my, my, my, my, Yeah. Because my ambitions was always,
18:57
it wasn't about this, it wasn't about the product, right?
19:01
It was always about how much money you can make.
19:06
Because with, with all I said, I what I, what ended up happening?
19:10
We ended up buying businesses. We, we end up buying real
19:15
estate. I'm I'm talking 2023 years old.
19:19
Way. AT23I, I owned, I, I owned, I
19:25
had at least 5 or 4, four or five pieces of real estate in
19:30
Baltimore City at 23. Wow, that's incredible.
19:35
I owned them. I owned them a florist in the
19:39
mall, right? So when I say florist in the
19:43
mall and selling drugs, people think, oh, it was for money
19:46
laundering purposes. It wasn't right.
19:50
You wanted a business. You wanted you wanted.
19:52
You wanted businesses. I wanted out of the drug trade,
19:56
right? And because I even at that age
19:57
and I, I saw everybody before me go to federal prison.
20:03
I saw everybody before me get murdered.
20:06
So I'm thinking, OK, we get, you know, I want to get out, but I
20:11
need to be, I need, I need to do something to be able to make the
20:14
same amount of money, if that makes sense.
20:16
Yeah, definitely. It definitely makes sense,
20:18
right? You're trying to keep up the
20:19
revenue, but you're trying to avoid the risk of, of, you know,
20:24
the, the, all the risks that come with selling, with selling
20:26
drugs, I guess, right? And the only reason I got into
20:30
this to start with, I was a kid growing up in in poverty.
20:34
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, dude, I, I for sure.
20:37
I sure wasn't like, oh, I wanna, you know, sell be a kingpin and
20:41
sell poison to to people or nothing like that.
20:46
For me, it was about, you know, seeing, seeing that struggle
20:52
with my mother working three jobs and, and almost getting
20:55
evicted and, and, and sometimes seeing, you know, the lights and
20:59
electricity getting ready to get turned off.
21:03
How? How much, how much, how much
21:05
conscious time do you spend nowadays thinking about that
21:08
part of your life? So a lot because I've written
21:13
about it, right? Yeah, you're going back.
21:16
You're going back on it. I always get questions about it.
21:20
I'm, I'm, I've, I've written you, you can go online.
21:23
I've probably written 40 op eds about poverty, addiction,
21:31
inequity, drug prevention policies, heroin, cocaine, gun
21:38
violence, right. And so when I look back, if I
21:44
didn't have those experiences, what would I be writing about
21:47
today? I don't nothing, right.
21:52
And the other part I think is a little bit more important is
21:55
would I even care, right? Because I know a lot of
21:59
successful black people and I'm not knocking them right?
22:04
Doing well financially, great families, great jobs.
22:10
The the truth of the matter is many, many, there are many black
22:16
folks out here. Did that have the killed?
22:19
I wanna say it in a callous way, but the the interest is not why
22:25
why poverty is decimating communities?
22:29
Why substance abuse is decimating communities?
22:33
Why this the disease of addiction is decimating
22:36
families, right? Does it something?
22:40
Because it's such a big problem that no one knows what to do
22:42
with. It sometimes yes, yes, sometimes
22:46
yes. And sometimes if that hasn't
22:49
been your experience, you that that might not be something that
22:54
you want to put your energy into and that's OK.
22:57
It's nothing. You're not a bad person because
23:00
those things don't interest you. You're not a bad person because
23:05
of that. But what I'm with, the point I'm
23:06
trying to make is that if I hadn't had that real life
23:10
experience, would I care today? You know what I mean?
23:14
Right. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
23:15
And, and my work has gone, you know, I've actually, I've worked
23:19
with the White House officer National Drug Control policy.
23:22
That's how'd that happen. How did you, how did how did was
23:25
this as a consequence of your books?
23:27
Was it? Was it because you were?
23:29
Yeah. Well, let me go back a few.
23:31
Let me just go back. Yeah, sure, please.
23:32
A few steps. So, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm
23:37
making all this money. Fast forward a few years.
23:42
I I I I end up spending almost 12 years in federal prison in
23:49
California State prison for drug for drug track.
23:54
I was 2024 when a guy who had got indicted on a federal case
24:05
cooperated with the feds and gave him my name.
24:11
And then I ended up getting indicted on something called a a
24:14
second superseding indictment. And so which is what?
24:19
Excuse me? Which is what?
24:21
What's the second superseding? So, so the the US attorneys go
24:27
to the grand jury, they they state their case to the grand
24:32
jury, you get indicted, right? Yeah.
24:36
The second superseding indictments means that the
24:39
folks, the people that were indicted that first time, now
24:43
after they're indicted and they start to cooperate.
24:47
The new, the whole of the race, yeah, yeah, I gotcha.
24:50
The new people. Get with the new information the
24:52
government takes that goes back to that same grand jury and they
24:58
get what's called a second superseding indictment.
25:01
Couldn't you say that the jury would be more biased in that
25:05
case because they've already been, you know, experienced a
25:10
case the exact same or very similar case prior to that?
25:12
Or do they just the government look at like a continuation of
25:15
the same case? It's a continuation.
25:18
I gotcha. So you so you got snowballed in
25:20
with this other guy. So I end up in that situation
25:24
and then what? Was your reaction?
25:26
What was what? What happened at the time?
25:28
Were you expecting it to happen? Were you shocked?
25:30
Were you like? I was shocked because of I was,
25:33
I was shocked because these guys supposedly had this, this, this
25:39
tough guy persona in the streets, but when it came when
25:44
it came time for them to carry their weight.
25:47
And so that whole thing is just a, a, a fantasy anyway, man.
25:52
And it's just like, I don't like the whole tough guy in the
25:59
street stuff and loyalty and trust.
26:03
I can look at the John Gotti, Sammy, the bull case, 23 murders
26:10
and and now you're a government witness.
26:12
The hope that but but the the issue, the bigger issue is that
26:16
young kids get involved in these situations and they adopt that
26:22
this fantasy of tough guys and loyalty and trust.
26:27
And it's the reality is there is no loyalty in the streets.
26:31
There is no, no trust in the streets. 0 Right?
26:35
And the whole tough guy persona is it is just a, you know, toxic
26:41
masculinity, right? But then when, when, when a guy
26:47
ends up in some trouble, he, he turns into something totally
26:52
different. But when you're young, you don't
26:55
understand those things. And that's why having a father
26:58
is important. That's why having a good male
27:01
role model is important for young boys.
27:05
A a male role model that can help him and navigate these
27:10
spaces and understand this stuff.
27:12
You know, I could have been a lot of things in life.
27:15
I'm a writer now and a very successful one, but I had to do
27:20
I had to journey through a a short life of crime and then 12
27:27
year over a decade in prison to get where I am today.
27:30
But let me go back to some of your your how we got here real.
27:36
Quick, I'm sorry. I'm just just just at this point
27:39
that we're still up to in the story.
27:41
And like you mentioned the father figure, were there other
27:43
role models that you had at this point, you know, growing up from
27:46
this 16 to 2324 that you would look up to that that you that
27:51
you felt was like that kind of, you know, positive figure in
27:54
your life? Yes, but, but they all were
27:57
involved in, in in in bad things.
28:01
Sure, but there were people that you look up to.
28:03
They were these the people I I looked up to all the wrong
28:06
people and I got advice from all the wrong people.
28:10
Right. I got you.
28:11
Yeah. Our best example I can give you
28:13
is the I think it's called The Bronx Tale, right?
28:17
OK, You you remember the movie The Bronx Tale?
28:20
Yeah, sure. Yeah, it was sunny and and the
28:22
kids and that so that's what I'm I'm, I'm, I'm talking about,
28:26
right? You, you certainly have
28:28
admiration and even affection in those relationships.
28:34
But is that the best information?
28:36
Like is that the is that the information that I need, right.
28:39
Trust no one, right? Well, if you if you can't trust
28:44
no one, then you're probably in the wrong environment, right?
28:47
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
28:51
So I had those folks, but I don't think, you know, I, I
28:54
remember God, I got I, I was taught how to cut heroin at
28:58
161617 years old, right? Is that like a, a good skill
29:05
set? If you wanted it was 60.
29:09
Of course not. So yeah, those folks around.
29:12
But sometimes you're, you're you're you're not young enough
29:17
to tell the difference, right? They got to tell you that, man,
29:21
I, I love you, you know, you're a great kid.
29:24
I love you and you hear those things and you like, OK, he, you
29:28
know he. We need that.
29:29
We crave that we. Crave.
29:32
We want that's so badly. That's what people don't.
29:36
It's so much psychology and associated with all this stuff,
29:41
you know what I mean? It's so layers upon layers upon
29:45
layers. And that's not that's not even
29:48
throw in the trauma, right, Because no doubt in my mom, when
29:53
I saw a 16 year old at 16 years, I got murdered.
29:59
That stuck with me, right? And I know if you look all over
30:03
the place, but I'm just give you an example.
30:05
No, no, you. I hated, I hated going in the
30:10
clubs after that right I. Don't blame you.
30:15
And I never understood why until like I until I became an adult
30:20
and I got into therapy. So that's a whole nother
30:23
conversation. But I know, yeah, I never
30:26
understood, like, why did I hate clubs?
30:31
Well, did the darkness did the loud music right.
30:36
This the loud Sound of Music, of course, as you're going to hate
30:39
a club after that, so. But so let me just get back.
30:44
So spending almost 12 years in prison, the thing that I'm, I'm,
30:50
yeah, I'm gonna use the term save me was that I, I took
30:56
college courses in prison. How did you decide to start
31:00
doing that? I just, I just realized I knew I
31:04
I would see it in front of my face.
31:06
I would see guys hustling with books and bags and.
31:12
Headaches. Were there a lot of them?
31:13
It was very was it? Was it common?
31:14
Yeah, it was common. It was common, it was common
31:19
and, and, and I gravitated to it, but I also knew, you know,
31:23
my mother would also always preach to me about education,
31:27
always preach to me about doing the right thing, always preach
31:32
to me about making better choices and having having
31:36
better, better quality of friendships.
31:40
So even though I didn't do it for years, it was still.
31:45
Their values were still in your head.
31:46
Yeah, yeah. So when I saw a college, you
31:50
know, and the other part, it's not like you got a whole bunch
31:52
of other things to do in prison. It's not like you're busy.
31:58
So yeah, I I took college courses and I ended up falling
32:01
in love with it. I mean, it was.
32:03
Really. What?
32:04
What, what, what? What kind of courses were you
32:05
taking at the time? I was taking business management
32:10
and like accounting one O 1 or counting one and a business,
32:18
business law, business management, you know, of course
32:21
English those classes. But I just remember that the
32:24
business classes, I love them because I started to run across
32:29
terms and techniques that I actually was using in the
32:33
streets of Baltimore. Yes, yeah, like.
32:37
Which was crazy to me at the time.
32:39
Like target marketing? Yeah, sure.
32:41
Right. And I'm like, damn, this is
32:43
stuff. This is stuff I was actually
32:45
already doing before, and now I'm learning that.
32:49
OK, so these, those, I love those.
32:52
I love the classes. The professors were great.
32:54
They would come in from the outside in the evening around
32:58
6:00 and they would teach the classes.
33:00
And yeah, it was, it was. It was are.
33:04
There are there any professors that you're in touch with?
33:06
Still no. You were like that you were
33:08
particularly fond of. No, not now.
33:11
I, I was with 1. He was a, he was actually, it
33:15
wasn't a professor. He was a education.
33:17
He's a department at education. And when I was in California and
33:23
I actually used to call him and she, I don't know why, but I
33:28
would just call and check and then ended up calling and found
33:32
out he had died, died of brain cancer.
33:34
Oh. Man.
33:37
If I see he was a Asian God, so I'm I'm, he was a Professor
33:44
Wong. I think it was Wong, the nicest
33:48
guy you ever met. He was he ran the computer
33:52
class, the computer program, the computer classes in in the
33:57
prison in California. And I loved the computer classes
34:01
because I knew they would these, these learning, learning how to
34:04
use these computers was preparing me for the to get
34:09
released back in the community. Right.
34:12
Yeah. Because I, it was a magazine I
34:14
would subscribe to you when I was in prison called Wire
34:17
Magazine. And they talked about computers.
34:24
They talked about the Internet. I remember the term they were
34:27
using back then. It was like the Internet
34:29
superhighway. Yeah.
34:32
They weren't wrong, huh? Yeah, and I was like super high.
34:35
Where the hell does this highway go?
34:37
Like it was, it was just like, and like looking back now, that
34:45
was the, the best decision I ever made was to educate myself
34:49
in prison. So when I got out here, I had
34:53
tools that I could use to earn a living.
34:56
And, and it's, it's as part of my even my writing today, I
35:01
remember having access to computers and you're actually
35:05
learning how to type. Yeah, small, like small stuff
35:09
like that have fundamentals, basic stuff that I still use
35:14
today, even just the functioning of computers or just
35:18
understanding technology. And as a whole.
35:21
It, it actually started in prison because we would.
35:25
I remember professors saying stuff like, yeah, well, the
35:30
world you're in here, the world out there is still it, advanced
35:35
moving. Yeah.
35:36
Do you think about that a lot? I was actually going to ask you
35:38
about that. At any point over those 12
35:40
years, do you think, were you nervous to go back out?
35:42
Absolutely, absolutely. And and I think the more I read
35:47
about it, the scarier it got right.
35:50
So, so much so that when I got released in in 2006, I actually
35:56
the first thing I did was take a a computer class at A at a
36:00
Baltimore City Community College.
36:02
Good for you, man. Seriously, These are such, these
36:04
are such great like decisions. It's so they're so proactive
36:09
too. Like they're not like you're
36:11
not, you're not, you're not like you're, you're creating these
36:15
opportunities for success for yourself rather than kind of
36:18
waiting for them to come along. I mean, that's really
36:20
incredible. Yeah, and I think even with the
36:23
writing now, so I'm actually working on two other books I've
36:27
got. I've got 4 published.
36:29
I just released the 4th book, A Life for life, Poor choices and
36:34
Unresolved Trauma is Killing America.
36:38
And I got 2 that I'm actually one is I think it's finished or
36:42
close, 80% finished and another one is about 50% finished.
36:47
So I'm actually thinking about 20272029 and having books ready
36:54
to go when So when we get to that point, you know, I can
36:58
continue that jerk. So when you talk about pro being
37:01
proactive, yeah, that's I think it's a big part of just just how
37:08
do you how do you seek success in life?
37:12
And like you said, you can't just wait around.
37:15
You have to be cool. So what is 2027 gonna look like
37:18
for me? What is 2028 gonna look like for
37:22
me? And if these are these are
37:24
things that a kid growing up in, in West Baltimore in the drug
37:30
business might not even consider because you think about it,
37:35
you're 18 and all your friends are getting shot and going to
37:38
prison. All your friends are getting
37:40
shot and getting murdered. You don't even, you're not even
37:43
if you're 16, you might not even think about.
37:46
You might not even think you'd be alive at 20.
37:48
Yeah. And and that's how we thought,
37:51
like we didn't even, we didn't even think we would be alive at
37:54
25, let alone 30. Wow.
37:57
Right. So it takes years and it takes
38:01
years and it might even take therapy for you to get out of
38:04
that mindset. It almost.
38:07
Certainly takes therapy, right? Yeah, in my first book, I, I
38:10
called it it, it's the I, I'm neck syndrome, right, Right.
38:17
I'm next syndrome you feel. Like a dread and doom that goes
38:21
over you when something happens and you realize that you could
38:23
be the next person for it to happen to.
38:24
I'm. I'm next and you and so you're
38:27
living your life that way. You know, you're living your
38:31
life in the sense that I won't even.
38:33
So how'd you snap out of that perspective?
38:34
How'd you how'd you get out of that?
38:36
Therapy. You went there, do you?
38:39
You went to therapy while you're in prison, No.
38:41
No, no, no. So I think while I was in
38:44
prison, I just think you, you, you also evolve and you grow and
38:50
you think about it, your brain is still developing at that
38:53
young age. And even when I was in, my brain
38:56
was still developing while I was in a prison cell, right?
39:00
Reading books from Frederick Douglass and and Reginald F
39:06
Lewis business books. So your, your brain is still
39:11
developing. So I think it started to wean
39:16
off then and then reading where you see like, oh, there's a
39:22
beach in South Africa, right? Oh, there's a mountain in New
39:26
Zealand or, or Venezuela, right. It's it's a, it's a big,
39:31
beautiful world out there. And you start realizing like,
39:34
oh, let's Baltimore not as big as I thought it was.
39:40
Like there's a whole world. I remember reading books on Cuba
39:44
and Fidel Castro and the beautiful people of Cuba and
39:49
just wanting to just walk through this, the beaches, walk
39:52
the streets of like historical Havana, right?
39:58
I read books about that while I was in prison.
40:01
But it helps you help you have a better understanding from a
40:06
young person from West Baltimore.
40:08
There is a big world out here. And just reading about it is
40:13
motivation within itself to want to go see it.
40:16
Yeah, yeah, I, I, I try to, it's funny because I teach high
40:20
school English part time, and one of the things I always like
40:24
to do with my students are like, why am I learning this?
40:26
What does it ever do with my life?
40:27
I'm like, forget about that for a minute.
40:29
I was like, just the fact that you learned that something else
40:33
exists out there, that's what's valuable, you know, just the
40:37
fact that you like know that something new exists in your
40:40
brain creates that space for something other than what you
40:42
know in your tiny little world exists.
40:45
Like that's what's the valuable part about learning, You know,
40:47
like, OK, if you don't use it in the future, you don't use in the
40:49
future, but at least you know it.
40:50
At least you can think of it as you can use your imagination and
40:53
creativity and associations and and and do something with this
40:57
and without that exposure. How you going to do that, you
40:59
know? Yeah, yeah.
41:02
I agree to 100%, 100, yeah. Yeah, so, so, so, so all that
41:08
reading was made. Do you still read a ton?
41:11
Man, if I could show you what's sitting in front of me right now
41:14
in my office, I got about 100 books.
41:19
Wow. And you know what?
41:20
As a writer, you do a lot of research.
41:25
And so I, I, I research so much that sometimes you literally
41:32
your brain hurts, right? Because if you wanna, if you
41:37
wanna write about civil rights, I'm, I'm telling you now, you
41:41
better do some research and you better, you got a lot of
41:46
homework to do. So you don't sound foolish when
41:48
you're having these conversations, right?
41:52
If you wanna write about the issue of substance abuse
41:56
prevention and mental health and all you better, you better be
42:00
willing to do some studying. So I'm an avid like Reese I I
42:04
spend about I spent about 60% of my time researching and about
42:11
another 1440 writing. I believe that.
42:15
I believe that. I mean, the research takes up
42:17
the way I can even tell you from a podcast perspective or from a
42:20
sales perspective with, you know, the other jobs that I have
42:23
that most of my time is dedicated, like most of my time
42:25
is dedicated to research and homework.
42:28
And then everything, you know, and the rest of the stuff just
42:30
kind of falls into place as I arm myself with the, with the
42:34
information that I need, you know, but but that's the real,
42:38
the real valuable part is, is familiarizing yourself with the
42:41
waters you're going into. Yeah, Yeah, yeah.
42:45
I mean, you better be willing to, you know, and, and, and, and
42:49
a lot of that man is also, I, I just learned years ago that if
42:54
you're gonna be putting yourself out there, at the very least you
42:58
should know what you're talking about.
43:01
Cause credibility matters. But also you don't want to be
43:04
putting inaccurate information out in the world, right?
43:09
If, if, if, if you writing a book on whatever it is, you
43:14
know, say it's sports, right? Techniques, techniques and
43:18
tackling on the field, right? For some kids, you, you want to
43:22
know, you want to provide good information so these kids don't
43:25
go out there, end up getting yourself injured or hurt, right?
43:28
Sure. So that goes even even if you're
43:30
talking about other stuff like addiction, the causes of
43:39
violence in communities, sure. Diversity, equity, inclusion.
43:43
If you're going to talk about these things, excuse me.
43:46
If you want to write about these things, at least you should know
43:48
what you're talking about. Yeah, I think that in addition
43:53
to I think it's impossible for anyone to really have the answer
43:57
because a lot of this stuff is also personalized and subject
44:01
to, you know, you know, this the person, the background, they're
44:05
from, their history, their genetics, you know, all that
44:07
stuff that like, you know, it's, you know, especially going to
44:11
talk about something so diverse, like addiction, right?
44:15
You know, there's so many different types and so many
44:17
different causes and roots And like, you know, you know, you
44:21
could speak and you know, I think one of the most beautiful
44:23
things when people kind of speak from their own experiences and
44:26
other people relate because you accidentally, you know, you
44:30
didn't even realize, but you just shared and set off a spark
44:34
in someone's mind that they didn't even know that someone
44:36
else had even also exist. You know, like it was a lonely,
44:39
scary, isolating world for them and then they find out that
44:42
someone else experiences it. Great.
44:44
You know, that really that that's a beautiful thing.
44:48
But you know, there's I think that there's going to be a lot
44:51
of times where when you're putting out information where
44:53
it's relevant to you and not to necessarily everyone else.
44:57
And I think that people have to also be aware of that, you know,
45:01
like I have to be aware of that. We're not, you know, I mean, you
45:04
know, I what, you know what, when I'm talking to my sister,
45:08
you know, just the fact that I'm a first born oldest, you know,
45:11
son and you know, and she's the third in the family and
45:16
everything about the way that we grew up was just, you know,
45:18
different in terms of our relationship and dynamics.
45:20
Like she, you know, I can't tell her how she feels.
45:23
You know, I can't tell her, you know what, what, you know, I
45:25
could tell her what, what my experiences and hope that she
45:29
and hope that she can understand you relate.
45:31
But I wouldn't think that, you know, I wouldn't, you know, I,
45:34
I, I wouldn't. I, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm very
45:38
skeptical to, to, to kind of have one explanation for almost
45:45
anything, you know, Yeah. No, that's true.
45:48
I I think the the the where where it gets complex is that so
45:56
math math tells the truth, right?
45:59
Sure, 2 + 2 is is is always going to be 4, right?
46:03
Right, right. And to some degree science is,
46:06
is, is the same way to some degree, right?
46:09
Sure. But also, I think often
46:15
sometimes as well, you, you, you, it's in the concept context
46:20
of an opinion, right? I think when you're so when
46:25
you're writing and and and you're expressing the opinion,
46:30
you got to be real clear about I'm expressing an opinion about
46:34
a subject, a subject because I'm not going to see it and act like
46:37
I've always got everything right, right.
46:40
I think it's very. Important to to to say, hey man,
46:43
I'm saying this as my opinion. You know this is my experience
46:46
with this, right? Yeah, you're right to not state
46:48
it as an objective fact. Yeah, put it into the, into the
46:51
context of, hey, this is my life, my, you know, from my
46:53
experience, right. Totally.
46:55
I, I'm totally with you on that, by the way.
46:56
That's a great, that's a great. That's a great point.
46:59
What, what, what I can say for 100% certainty is that I've
47:04
always put in the effort to to get the to search for the
47:10
answers. You know what I mean?
47:13
I've always 100% that's. The beauty in life, that's the
47:16
fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
47:18
And that's the that's the beauty of also so right.
47:21
But even because you're in search of that don't always mean
47:25
you, don't you, you found it, right.
47:27
But but you do because there are people out here that write and
47:31
and take shortcuts, right? And don't source material all
47:36
the time, but just from, but just from a writing perspective,
47:42
I put it, I just put a lot of effort in just trying to, I call
47:47
it corro, corroborate things. Sure.
47:51
You know what I mean? Yeah.
47:52
Definitely. And again, I've I've always got
47:55
it all right. Probably not, but I've I've
47:58
always but 100% I put in effort. Definitely.
48:02
I remember the man, my first literate agency told me, she
48:04
said. You when you die, these books
48:08
still gonna be on the shelf and people still people still going
48:13
to read them and they. Probably read more of them after
48:17
you die. You know that's the that's the
48:18
rule with the artists, right? Excuse me?
48:22
You're most valuable after you're dead.
48:26
Yeah. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
48:30
I don't know how much it's going to help at that point, but.
48:33
Right. I know that's the tragedy of it.
48:35
That's the tragedy of the artist.
48:37
Yeah, it is. Man, I think we were just about
48:42
the 45 minute mark, right? Yeah, we, yeah.
48:44
So I think there's an awesome introduction to the
48:47
conversation. I think this is a perfect Part
48:49
1. I hope that in a couple of weeks
48:51
we'll meet, We'll do Part 2 in person with some video.
48:54
And Kevin, man, I just wanted to say first of all, I think that
48:58
anyone's starting this is going to be I can't wait for Part 2,
49:02
you know, right away. But thank you so much for the
49:05
time and thank you for dude, I'm judged.
49:09
I'm so impressed, you know, and you ever think, you know, one of
49:14
my favorite impressed with my favorite words because it means
49:16
like you left an impression. You're like pressed against
49:18
someone and like making a tangible difference, you know,
49:21
like hearing, hearing these convert, you know, hearing your
49:22
stories and hearing this conversation is, is impressive
49:26
to me. You know, it sticks with me.
49:29
And I really look forward to continuing meeting you, man,
49:32
and, and to continue the rest of the story and talking about a
49:35
lot more things. Psychological therapy, you know,
49:38
reform advocacy. I want to look, we're going to
49:40
talk about all that kind of stuff, but I think there's a
49:43
beautiful way to start it. Thank you so much, Kevin.
49:46
Yeah, absolutely. And so when we start off next
49:48
time, let's start off with the the White House off.
49:50
Make a note White House office and national drug control
49:52
policy. You got it, man.
49:54
Awesome, Kevin. I appreciate it.
49:56
Thank you so much, man. Have a great weekend.
49:58
We're going to be in touch. All right.
49:59
OK, talk soon. Bye all.
50:00
Right. Take care.
50:00
Bye.