Latest / The Week in Bible Prophecy / Hidden Proof of the Pretrib Rapture | Ken Johnson

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Hidden Proof of the Pretrib Rapture | Ken Johnson · The Week in Bible Prophecy

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  Speaker 1: The Week in Bible Prophecy, a Prophecy Watchers Podcast.
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  Speaker 2: Hello, I'm Gary Steerman of Prophecy Watchers, and we're going
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  Speaker 2: to take a little time here with our good friend
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  Speaker 2: Ken Johnson, who has authored another book, and we're going
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  Speaker 2: to talk about a concept that you may not be
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  Speaker 2: all that familiar with. Ken Johnson. Welcome to Prophecy Watchers.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you for having me.
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  Speaker 2: This new book of yours is called Poll's Ancient Hebrew
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  Speaker 2: Thessalonian Epistles. Now we read them in English. We read
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  Speaker 2: the epistles in English, and when you go to a
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  Speaker 2: school of theology, you study the Greek. But wait a minute. Here,
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  Speaker 2: you're talking about ancient Hebrew Thessalonian epistles, in which brings
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  Speaker 2: up your entire modus operandi. You do a lot research
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  Speaker 2: into the ancient languages that resulted in our Bible in
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  Speaker 2: its present form, and you go back and look where
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  Speaker 2: people most people don't look. Explain your method if you will,
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  Speaker 2: for those of you watching his method is very interesting.
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  Speaker 1: Well, basically, I started off when I became a Christian.
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  Speaker 1: I wanted to figure out what proper doctrine was, and
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  Speaker 1: I realized there's differences between Baptists and Catholics and Pentecostals
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  Speaker 1: and things like that. So I decided to go back
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  Speaker 1: to the early Church fathers, anything that they would have written,
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  Speaker 1: especially anyone who was a disciple of one of the apostles.
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  Speaker 1: And there's actually quite a bit of a body of
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  Speaker 1: literature for that. It's usually put together in a ten
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  Speaker 1: volume encyclopedia called the Antonysine Fathers. So I dug through
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  Speaker 1: that just to see what they would say about the rapture, salvation,
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  Speaker 1: you know, stuff like that, the things that we divide over.
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  Speaker 1: If they said anything at all, you know, that would
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  Speaker 1: help with that. And so I did that, and I've
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  Speaker 1: been basically teaching Church father doctrine for a long long time.
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  Speaker 1: And so then I got into the Dead Sea Scrolls.
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  Speaker 1: And the interesting thing about it is they compliment each
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  Speaker 1: other quite a bit. Because we have the New Testament
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  Speaker 1: and it's pretty self explanatory. But you've got the Dead
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  Speaker 1: Sea Squirrells telling us what's going on the four hundred
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  Speaker 1: silent years before the New Testament, and then the Early
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  Speaker 1: Church Father's telling us what's going on right after the
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  Speaker 1: New Testament. And when they use the same language, the
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  Speaker 1: same doctrines, explain things the same way. You know, that
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  Speaker 1: culture didn't change the words and they really mean something else.
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  Speaker 1: And so we started doing this and I've put together
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  Speaker 1: a lot of books on the Dead Sea Scrolls and
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  Speaker 1: then basically just followed them out. And so the Dead
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  Speaker 1: Sea Scrolls talked about the Book of Gad the Seer,
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  Speaker 1: for instance, and we managed to trace that with a
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  Speaker 1: group of Jews in India, in Coach in India, and
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  Speaker 1: that's kind of where this comes from too. Basically, the
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  Speaker 1: story behind it is that there was a group of
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  Speaker 1: Jews led by a rabbi named Judah, not from that tribe,
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  Speaker 1: that was his name, And it was during the four
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  Speaker 1: generations where the prophets had preached that in four generations
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  Speaker 1: the Assyrians would come and take all of the ten
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  Speaker 1: northern tribes. Well, they decided, since they were believers, we
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  Speaker 1: don't have to stick around for that, that's what the
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  Speaker 1: prophecy is for. So they took off and they traveled
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  Speaker 1: south and they wound up in what we call today Yemen.
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  Speaker 1: So they stayed there for centuries and then when the
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  Speaker 1: Muslim persecutions got bad, they picked up and they moved
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  Speaker 1: to Coach in India. And so they've been there ever since.
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  Speaker 1: And so they had the Book of Gad, the s
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  Speaker 1: year on other books like that that I was interested in,
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  Speaker 1: and we managed to get that one and publish it,
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  Speaker 1: and then we've been after them trying to get other manuscripts,
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  Speaker 1: and then a lot of other people have been doing
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  Speaker 1: the same thing. So it turns out there is a
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  Speaker 1: body of literature with the New Testament, basically the entire
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  Speaker 1: New Testament. And what they've done is there's different families
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  Speaker 1: of these manuscripts. Some of them have been backwards translated
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  Speaker 1: from the Greek into Hebrew and then even changed a
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  Speaker 1: little bit specifically to be nicely anti inquisition or anti
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  Speaker 1: Roman Catholic, so that you could possibly use these to
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  Speaker 1: say I would convert, but how do you explain this?
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  Speaker 1: And then maybe they'd leave you alone. And so there's
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  Speaker 1: these kind of medieval manuscripts all over Europe. But then
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  Speaker 1: there's also ones that have a few extra sentences, and
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  Speaker 1: some of those are quoted by early Church fathers. So
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  Speaker 1: there's a small subset of these manuscripts that go back
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  Speaker 1: to in early second century, and so those are the
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  Speaker 1: ones that we want to really look at.
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  Speaker 2: So in your book, Paul's ancient Hebrew Thessalonian Epistles. What
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  Speaker 2: you've done is take the if you will, the letters
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  Speaker 2: that of our New Testament, which have been translated by
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  Speaker 2: people who's who had a particular language and dialect that
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  Speaker 2: they wanted to preserve on paper, and so they translated
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  Speaker 2: from the Greek, I suppose, from the Hebrew into their
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  Speaker 2: own languages. And these are the manuscripts that you've been
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  Speaker 2: looking at. Right.
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  Speaker 1: We don't just have Hebrew. We've got Greek. We've got Hebrew,
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  Speaker 1: Early Latin, Georgian, Coptic, several other translations.
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  Speaker 2: Let's look at one. I'm in my own Bible here,
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  Speaker 2: first Essalonians on ten, where it says and to wait
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  Speaker 2: for his son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead,
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  Speaker 2: even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. Now,
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  Speaker 2: we're all very very familar with that wording and the
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  Speaker 2: cadence of it, and so forth we've memorized. But now
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  Speaker 2: you're looking at a different linguistic approach to that.
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  Speaker 1: To what end, Yeah, just to see how they translated
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  Speaker 1: it what they understood it to mean. And again, if
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  Speaker 1: you could go back and ask Peter and Paul did
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  Speaker 1: you mean this or that, and they can tell you.
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  Speaker 1: Then you could add a few words or change it
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  Speaker 1: and make it go by what you had heard. So
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  Speaker 1: in this case, the Greek makes it sound like we're
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  Speaker 1: waiting for Jesus to come back, and this is the Jesus,
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  Speaker 1: whom God raised from the dead, and the fact that
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  Speaker 1: he was raised from the dead means we're delivered from hell,
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  Speaker 1: except that wrath to come almost sounds more like a
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  Speaker 1: tribulation period, and so people have kind of wondered about that,
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  Speaker 1: But that's basically as far as it's went. So the
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  Speaker 1: Hebrew is basically the same thing, but the verb tenses
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  Speaker 1: are different. Instead of it all being in the past,
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  Speaker 1: it's all in the future, And instead of it being
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  Speaker 1: passive meaning it's done to Jesus, it's active, meaning Jesus
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  Speaker 1: is doing it to someone else. So when you understand
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  Speaker 1: that and you read it in the Hebrew, it actually
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  Speaker 1: says to wait for his son from heaven, Jesus, who
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  Speaker 1: will cause the dead to rise and who will cause
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  Speaker 1: us to be caught up. And the word therefore caught
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  Speaker 1: up is not just delivered in general, it's the word
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  Speaker 1: not saul. And that is the Hebrew equivalent to harpodzo
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  Speaker 1: meaning to be snatched. It's the one that we use
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  Speaker 1: in our Greek the harpodzo in chapter four where he
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  Speaker 1: describes the fact that there's a resurrection and then a
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  Speaker 1: changing and then a rapture, and so it's really interesting
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  Speaker 1: to see that, and it basically says then that Jesus
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  Speaker 1: will come back, resurrect the dead, rapture us, and then
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  Speaker 1: the reason is to prepare for the arrival of the
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  Speaker 1: fierce wrath and word the phrase there fierce wrath is
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  Speaker 1: to Hebrew words, it's an idiom maharn off, and it
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  Speaker 1: means something like an obliteration. So like when the Lord
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  Speaker 1: destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and destroyed the army that came
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  Speaker 1: after the children of Israel in Egypt, they were drowned
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  Speaker 1: in the Red Sea. Those were both times of naharum
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  Speaker 1: off a destruction. So that's not that they all died
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  Speaker 1: and went to Hell or some of them didn't even escape,
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  Speaker 1: but the fact that there's this destruction coming. So this
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  Speaker 1: is a perfect picture of we're waiting for Jesus to
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  Speaker 1: come back to resurrect and rapture Us, because that event
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  Speaker 1: prepares the world for the tribulation period. There's really no
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  Speaker 1: other way of translating it than that from the Hebrew.
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  Speaker 1: So it's really fascinating. It's a real quick understanding. And
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  Speaker 1: you could look at this and say, well, that's got
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  Speaker 1: to be pre or maybe mid, but not post and
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  Speaker 1: so yeah, it could be mid. Just this one verse.
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  Speaker 1: When we read the rest of the text though in Hebrew,
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  Speaker 1: it makes it very very clear as talking about a
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  Speaker 1: pre trip.
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  Speaker 2: We look at it in our King James or New
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  Speaker 2: American Standard, whatever, our current translations of the Bible, we're
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  Speaker 2: not really getting that idea from it, you know, right,
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  Speaker 2: which is fascinating. You've kind of uncovered an urgency that
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  Speaker 2: they had or a feeling that they had that found
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  Speaker 2: its way into their personal translation in their personal languages
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  Speaker 2: that they spoke at that time.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like when Paul says, therefore comfort one another with
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  Speaker 1: these words, and I think this would be very comforting,
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  Speaker 1: It's like, no, we're just set and wait because there
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  Speaker 1: may be good things and bad things, but eventually the
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  Speaker 1: Lord will come back and then these things will happen,
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  Speaker 1: and we want to wait for that. It's going to
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  Speaker 1: be fantastic.
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  Speaker 2: And what does this say concerning the pre mid argument
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  Speaker 2: about the rapture mid post argument. They're a discussion that
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  Speaker 2: we've all had a thousand times. Yeah, does this shed
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  Speaker 2: any light on that?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah? It makes it very very clear that there cannot
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  Speaker 1: be a pre are, that there cannot be a post
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  Speaker 1: rather trib rapture because of all the events and how
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  Speaker 1: it comes. So if there is a rapture, and then
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  Speaker 1: that rapture is to prepare the world for the tribulation period,
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  Speaker 1: it's a pre trib rapture really really specific in there.
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  Speaker 1: But as you go through the rest of this the manuscript,
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  Speaker 1: I mean it tells you multiple times over and over again.
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  Speaker 2: Now this is your latest book, Paul's ancient Hebrew Thessalonian Epistles,
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  Speaker 2: And of course it came down to us in the
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  Speaker 2: Greek language and then translated into English. But people are concerned,
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  Speaker 2: you know, don't want to emperor with translations, we might
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  Speaker 2: lose the real meaning and so forth and so on,
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  Speaker 2: and I'm sure you're very conscious of that. But what
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  Speaker 2: you're doing is essentially showing people what was believed at
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  Speaker 2: various times down through the Church Age and giving us,
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  Speaker 2: i think a little insight that we might not have
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  Speaker 2: had we're living in a time can when there's just
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  Speaker 2: a lot of discussion about the rapture of the Church,
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  Speaker 2: about the disposition at the of the church, at the
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  Speaker 2: end of the Church Age, just a lot of discussion.
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  Speaker 2: And of course prophecy watchers is right in the middle
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  Speaker 2: of that discussion, of our guests that we invite in
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  Speaker 2: to discuss their books and their ideas. It's fascinating because
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  Speaker 2: there are two things going on in the mind of
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  Speaker 2: a Christ. Jesus is coming soon. On the other side,
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  Speaker 2: I don't want to leap ahead and get too far
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  Speaker 2: ahead of myself and get too enthusiastic about just how
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  Speaker 2: soon He is coming. So there's this counterbalance in discussion
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  Speaker 2: that goes on in prophetic studies, and you've been right
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  Speaker 2: in the middle of that for years, and I get
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  Speaker 2: the feeling this throws some light on how we should
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  Speaker 2: view the end of the Church Age or prophecy in general.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so too. I mean, it's just suppose
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  Speaker 1: you found a Spanish Bible and you translated it into English,
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  Speaker 1: and it had some extra information about a pre trib rapture.
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  Speaker 1: Whoever put it together, and you may not know who
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  Speaker 1: apparently believed in a pre trib rapture because of the
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  Speaker 1: notes in the Bible, and so in this case that's
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  Speaker 1: basically what we've done from Hebrew. But because of the
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  Speaker 1: way it's written and the extra clauses from other things,
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  Speaker 1: we know that it dates at least in the early
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  Speaker 1: second century. So if you had a Bible that goes
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  Speaker 1: back that far, that's what's really interesting to look at it.
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  Speaker 1: So people have been excited about the Second Coming and
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  Speaker 1: the rapture and the millennial reign for almost two thousand years.
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to read first Thessalonians for fourteen for if
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  Speaker 2: we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so
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  Speaker 2: them which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
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  Speaker 2: That's the good old King James. And you have found
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  Speaker 2: another translation. There was another translation into the native language
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  Speaker 2: of the speakers at the time, and read that one
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  Speaker 2: this same version.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting because a lot of my post trip
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  Speaker 1: friends would quote this and say, see, when Jesus comes back,
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  Speaker 1: he's going to bring people with him. That's the second Coming.
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  Speaker 1: So that means it's a post trip rapture. And I
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  Speaker 1: never really had an argument for that because it says
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  Speaker 1: what it says. You know. But in the Hebrew it says,
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  Speaker 1: if we believe Jesus died and rose again, we also
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  Speaker 1: believe that those who sleep in Jesus, God will raise
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  Speaker 1: in his presence. So basically the same idea, but to
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  Speaker 1: say that God will raise them in his presence or
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  Speaker 1: before him, you know, to be a part of the family,
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  Speaker 1: as opposed to bringing them with him. It's a small
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  Speaker 1: change in the text, but it really goes a long
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  Speaker 1: way to showing a pre trip rapture as opposed to
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  Speaker 1: a possible post trip rapture.
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  Speaker 2: And again, and first's only before fourteenth we believe that
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  Speaker 2: Jesus died and rose again, even so then will also
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  Speaker 2: will sleep in Jesus will God bring with him? Which
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  Speaker 2: is very very visual kind of an idea very visual
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  Speaker 2: picture there of Jesus bringing them those who have have
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  Speaker 2: been resurrected, bringing that they will come with him. Now,
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  Speaker 2: that's fascinating. And you and again you, let's talk a
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  Speaker 2: little bit about what you have done over the years,
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  Speaker 2: because a lot of people might not understand exactly the
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  Speaker 2: methodology that you use. You have gone back and into
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  Speaker 2: scripts and scrolls that nobody ever reads or or and
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  Speaker 2: nobody knows about and where did you start doing all this?
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  Speaker 2: Because it's fascinating to me. Most people would have said,
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  Speaker 2: you know, you know, that's a lot of hard work.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know whether I want to do that or not.
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  Speaker 1: Well, it is, but if you're extremely curious like I am,
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  Speaker 1: you can't not do it, you know. And so it's
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  Speaker 1: just like if you'd go to all of your favorite
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  Speaker 1: preachers and say, what do you think about a rapture?
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  Speaker 1: Do you think you could lose your salvation? Do you
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  Speaker 1: think the gifts still continue? What do you think about this?
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  Speaker 1: And most of us would do that and take, like,
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  Speaker 1: well almost all of them except for that one guy
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  Speaker 1: who's a little weird anyway, all say the same thing.
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  Speaker 1: And that's kind of the same thing I did. I
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  Speaker 1: started with the church fathers, assuming that if we start
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  Speaker 1: with the apostles, disciples that knew them, that worked with
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  Speaker 1: them for years, like Polycarp and these guys, and if
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  Speaker 1: they wrote things and said basically, it's a pre trip
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  Speaker 1: rapture or it's this, or it's that, and they all
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  Speaker 1: kind of said this same thing those that mentioned it,
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  Speaker 1: then you have a body of evidence showing that's the
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  Speaker 1: proper interpretation. And then when you go back to the
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  Speaker 1: Dead Sea Scrolls, which is before the New Testament, and
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  Speaker 1: they start saying the same thing about, there's the Messiah's
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  Speaker 1: God incarnate, he comes to die for our sins. Here's
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  Speaker 1: the date in which it happens. It starts a new
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  Speaker 1: age called the Age of Grace, and just you know
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  Speaker 1: all this other stuff that they knew about this stuff
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  Speaker 1: before the New Testament, and it's just really a fascinating
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  Speaker 1: It makes a much better clearer picture of proper doctrine
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  Speaker 1: that we can trust in.
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  Speaker 2: Now, let's go to another one second. Thessalonians chapter one,
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  Speaker 2: verse seven, and to you who are troubled, rest with
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  Speaker 2: us when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven
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  Speaker 2: with his mighty angels. And you have another translation of that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, in the Hebrew it has an extra sentence or
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  Speaker 1: an extra phrase, And I never thought about it before.
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  Speaker 1: But when you go back and you look at that
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  Speaker 1: in the Greek are King James. It says, to you
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  Speaker 1: who are troubled, rest with us, and then it says,
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  Speaker 1: when Jesus shall be we shall come back. So it's
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  Speaker 1: almost like it sounds like it's missing a phrase rest
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  Speaker 1: with us, until it doesn't say until it says when
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  Speaker 1: so until something when Jesus. So the Hebrew actually has
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  Speaker 1: this missing phrase. It says he gave his spirit to
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  Speaker 1: the oppressed, both you and us, until the time of
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  Speaker 1: the departure, when Jesus will be revealed from heaven, and
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  Speaker 1: it goes on with the rest of the text. So
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  Speaker 1: it's basically telling us Number one. I thought it was
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  Speaker 1: fascinating that we can be comforted because we have the
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  Speaker 1: Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is in dwelling the believer,
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  Speaker 1: and that also goes along with the gifts, the fact
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  Speaker 1: that He will comfort us and there'll be healings in
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  Speaker 1: different things like that, and that continues until the time
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  Speaker 1: of the departure.
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  Speaker 2: Now a lot of people say that was oh no,
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  Speaker 2: add an extra phrase to the bio.
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  Speaker 1: True.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, you know, but you're looking at this as sort
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  Speaker 2: of amplifying what those people at that time were.
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  Speaker 1: Thinking, right, yeah, the whole It's the same thing with
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  Speaker 1: the critical text. In the New Testament. We have a
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  Speaker 1: full received text, which is like a King James, New
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  Speaker 1: King James, and then you have some others that go
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  Speaker 1: by a critical text. So the question is did the
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  Speaker 1: critical text remove parts of scripture that should have not
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  Speaker 1: been removed, or did the Received text add parts to
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  Speaker 1: scripture that should have not been at it, because you're
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  Speaker 1: not supposed to tamper with scripture, right. But you've got
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  Speaker 1: these two different sets of manuscripts, and now we have
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  Speaker 1: a Hebrew New Testament that mirrors the Received Text almost perfectly,
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  Speaker 1: except occasionally it has an extra phrase or word or somethence.
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  Speaker 1: So it's the same basic deal. You're going to go
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  Speaker 1: by the critical Received or the Hebrew.
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  Speaker 2: I wanted to be quick. You're not creating a new
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  Speaker 2: Bible here. But what you're doing is translated scripture that
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  Speaker 2: has been used in the past, and then I suppose
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  Speaker 2: dropped out of favor as language and culture changed over time.
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  Speaker 2: These things were shuffled back into a closet somewhere until
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  Speaker 2: you found them.
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  Speaker 1: Remember that's kind of the way everything has went, whether
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  Speaker 1: the Hebrew was used widely or not. The Greek was
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: used widely, and then Greek kind of dropped out of
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: favor because of Latin. And then we get to the
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: Middle Ages where you only use Latin, you don't talk Greek,
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Hebrew or anything else. And then you get to a
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: place where you don't even read scripture because you just
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: pay attention to what the priest tells you. And then
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: the reformers come along and they start with Latin Bible.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: They just want a Bible to read, and then they realize, wait,
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Latin came from the Greek, so then they want to
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: go back to the Greek. And so we finally got
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: the Received Text, and now we keep going backwards and
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: we find other translations from way way back that may
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: shine more light on these things.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: And so that's what you're doing. You're just adding some
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: insight into what a particular group at a particular time
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: we're doing. And it is fascinating to see the way
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: they've view particularly the way they view Bible prophecy. And
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: they were enthusiastic about that for sure. Yeah.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: I think it's interesting how we keep going through these manuscripts,
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: biblical and extra biblical, and when we come up with
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: one that's prophetic, it seems like it's always pre trip.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: There's never a mid there's never a post. There's never
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: anything about multiple ones. You know, not that that proves anything,
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: but it's just interesting.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, for the last few decades, you know, the
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: pre mid post idea has circulated, and I would say
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: that the definitely the most highly favored thought now is
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: pre trib when it comes to the rapture, not just
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: a pre trib rapture, but the whole pre tribe theology
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: that encompasses the way we conduct our lives as Christians,
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: the way we see the Bible, the way we see
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: the work of the Lord, and the culmination of that work.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: All of these things, I think in our era have
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: come to a kind of maturity. And what you're doing
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: is looking back at stages of development up to our
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: period of time, which is fascinating.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes sense too, because when Paul says, therefore,
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: comfort one another with these words, what words? The fact
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: that the tribulation has begun and we're about to get killed,
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: that's not very comforting. So really, what was the point?
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: What words? Are being comforted that the day of the
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: Lord does not come? Because there's a falling away? First
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: the man of sin revealed, there's a catching away of us. First,
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: comfort one another with those words.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: That is fascinating. Let's take another example second, Thessalonians one
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: and to you this is by the way one seventh
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: and to you who are troubled, rest with us until
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: something that happens when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: from heaven with his mighty angels. You've got something in
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: brackets there.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the phrase that looks like there's something added.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: And in the Hebrew it says on until the time
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: of departure. And I think that's pretty interesting. It could
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: have said several other things. I could have used different words.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: It's not not saul like a snatching away, but just
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: a departure. But he gave his spirit to the oppressed,
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: both you and us, until the time of the departure,
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: when Jesus will be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: And it's the exact same ending phrase, but in there
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: it's just interesting to see until the time of the departure.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: Now let's there's there's something very interesting here the second Thessalonians,
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: chapter two and verse six, where you have and now
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: you know what withhold it that he might be revealed
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: in his time for the mystery of iniquity of already
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: work King James, and you have found a very interesting
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: passage here that adds a thought to that.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting because it's in the next verse it
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: continues to say that he will be restrained until it
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: is taken out of the way or it comes out
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: of the midst is literally what it says in Greek.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: And so we've always wondered, what is it, Where is
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: it being taken from, where is it being taken to?
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: What is it we're talking about? So obviously it's the
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: Antichrist can't do something right now because he's being restrained.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: What is the restrainer? Well, it's it. And when you
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: look at this and you study it in Greek, it's
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: after a while it comes to the conclusion it's the
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: Church filled with the Holy Spirit, and when the rapture occurs,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: the spirit filled church leaves. We're the one that constantly restrains.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, every time somebody says you've got to go
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: do this, we say, no, we're Christians, we don't do that.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: And when there's enough of us on the planet, it's
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: a really hard thing to get people to send. When
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: you've got all these Christians refusing, even if it's a
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: government order, we will not comply. So if we're finally gone,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: then that can happen. That's kind of what most of
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: us think that the it means. But in the Hebrew
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: it actually comes out and says that it says, now, indeed,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: you know that he will be restrained by us for now,
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: so that he will be revealed in his time. For
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: the mystery of lawlessness began to appear long ago. His
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: work has ceased. We the restrainer, will continue to restrain
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: until the highway is taken from the midst and then
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: that lawless one will be revealed. So it's the same
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: basic phrase, but the it turns out to be in
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: the Hebrew the word messelah, which is a highway, And
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: that seems confused it first. But the interesting thing about it,
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: remember John the Baptist said, I'm the voice crying in
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: the wilderness to prepare the way of Messiah, to make
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: his highway. And you can go back and look, there's
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: several places in the Old Testament that refer to the
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: way as being a lifestyle morality believing in the Messiah.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: In English, we've taken out of the way. It was
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: just a very abrupt taken out of the way. It's
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: just a little expression that's i think fairly easy to understand.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: But then when you look back at the way it
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: was previously translated that it adds a little which would
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: I say a nuance there?
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: Right? Yeah, So if the highway is the people of
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: the way, the people that teach and show the way,
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: and the way is the Gospel. Basically you're talking about
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: the church, and we have a church father that actually
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: quotes us back in the second century, early second century
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: or late second century anyway. But it's really interesting to
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: see this. So their understanding is that the Antichrist is
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: the lawless one, is the work is ready to go,
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: but it's being restrained by the church, and when the
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: Church is raptured, then things can get started.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: Now, I want to quickly say that Ken is not
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: creating a new Bible here. Basically, what you've done is
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: create a Bible commentary. In other words, by looking at
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: previous translations, you are you can see what people thought
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: at that time and the nuance. And every language has
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: nuances that maybe one person will hear a sentence and
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: take away a certain meaning, and another person will hear
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: that same sentence take away a slightly different meaning because
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: language is highly nuanced, and there are accents and pauses
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: and phrases, and then in the Greek and Hebrew there
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: are you know, tenses and cases and all sorts of
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: different grammatical should I say, grammatical nuance, very slight nuances
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: that we don't have in English, and you've brought those out,
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: and I think that that's why it's useful to read
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: this book. And again it's called Paul's ancient Hebrew Thessalonian Epistles.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: And you think, what Hebrew Thessalonian Epistles? Wait a minute.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: They were written in Greek.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: But.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: By people who had a certain thing on their heart. Well,
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: I know what I have on my heart right now.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking of you know, I'm looking at the world
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: that now exists, and I'm looking at the news. I'm
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: reading various commentaries and and I'm saying to myself, as
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: a Bible believing Christian, this all looks very familiar according
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: to what the Bible is saying about the end times.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: And you've been there, I've been there. All Christians who
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: are really Bible believing Christians are doing the same thing
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: right now. They are looking at the world and saying,
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: what does the Bible say about this? And it really
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: is a complicated and yet a very dynamic process. In
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: other words, you can't look away. If you've ever been
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: exposed to the Bible and Bible prophecy. You've just got
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: to go back to scripture and say, can I see
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: what's happening now or what is about to happen in scripture?
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: And if so, how does it affect my life? And
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: so you're going way way back and looking at what
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: these people who were thinking at their time in history,
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: which I think is really fascinating.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you could do the same thing with Coptic, Georgian,
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: Old Latin Aramaic things like that. And again we're not
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: trying to replace the Bible per se. But is there
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: a difference. Sometimes there's absolutely no difference at all. If
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: there is a difference, what would that mean, just a
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: different way of looking at it.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And of course in our Europe we have the
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: pre mid post rapture discussion, and we've had that for
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: many decades now, you and I before we sat down here,
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: we're talking about that and it's almost nostalgic. But God's people,
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: I think, are bidden and driven to try to understand
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: exactly what God intends for us to be seeing and
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: doing in the days just before the Turn of Christ
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: and just before the tribulation. And there are so many
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: books now on the market that are talking about the
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: raptor of the church. I've never seen anything like it.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: And this book that gives is a peculiar way of
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: understanding the present because it does so by looking back
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: what a the millennium and a half and getting a
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: little grasp of the feeling that people had at that time.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: And you know that's really educational.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so that's why I love studying these
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: kind of things.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: And by the way, you are the man, I mean,
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: nobody else I think goes quite to the depth that
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: you do in these studies. It's just it's amazing. So
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: what do you gather? Are you driven to any kind
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: of an understanding that the rest of us may not have?
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: As far as prophecy, so far, it's the same. It
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: just seems to be super clear that they believe the
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: same as we do. Pre trib rapture, a seven year
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: tribulation period where there's an Antichrist that takes over, there's
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: ten nations. There's a lot of detail about that stuff,
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: mainly just repeats of scripture, but it just shows you
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: that they believe the same way, looked at it the
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: same way.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: And again, this is Paul's ancient Hebrew Thessalonian Epistles. What
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: every time he reads the title, you say, oh, wait
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: a minute, that can't be right. Ancient Hebrew Thessalonian Epistles
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: that was written in Greek. And how many times have
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: we read first and second Thessalonian. It's for Bible believing
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: Christians pre trib I mean, these are the I think,
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: the two books in the Bible that are worn out.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: They're just about to fall out out of the Bible
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: because they've been opened and closed so many times. And
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: every time we look at policy epistles concerning the end
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: times and particularly references to the rapture of the Church,
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: et cetera, we are looking with a motive. In other words,
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: things are happening, and we, as latter day Christians, are saying, Okay,
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: I'm going to look at this one more time to
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: see if I can get a new not a new translation,
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: but a new Is it a feeling, No, it's not
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: a feeling, but you understand what.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: The new understanding or a better understanding, a better understanding.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: And I think maybe, well, I know the first time
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: I read this book, uh, and when I looked at
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: these verses, that we've got to be for us here.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: It had the effect of giving me one of those
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: oh wow, they believe that too, that far back. It
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: sort of gave me a sense of relief in a way,
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: because you could go back and sympathize with someone who
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: lived over a thousand years ago, and rather than being disturbing,
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: this kind of a calming thing. We have a long,
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: long chain of belief that comes right up to the
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: present day. I have the blessed hope. And will we
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: see the rapture of the church. I can't say that
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: we will, but a lot of people are. And so
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: you look back at Ken's work and you say, well, okay,
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: now I'm looking back at what somebody believed and kind
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: of gives me a feeling of comfort. I guess that's
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: the way I would put it.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: We can comfort one another with these words.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: Where have I read that? Okay, we need to wrap
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: this up here in a few minutes. But what would
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: you have people take from this book Paul's Agent Hebrew
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: the Salonian Epistles.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: Well, just that we have an early translation of his epistles,
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: and the commentary, if you want to call it commentary
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: in there basically teaches a pre tribulational rapture, and it
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: makes it a little clearer on why we would comfort
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: one another with that kind of a concept. We have
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: things getting bad or worse, we have a seven year
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: tribulation period, then we have the Lord coming with a
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: Messianic rain where things are going to be fantastic. And
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: so the whole thing we need to look at is
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: we have a rapture, we have a tribulation period, but
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: then the millennial rain. So all of that should be
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: comforting to Christians, the fact that the Lord is in control,
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: He's allowing things to go just so far, and then
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: he's going to step in and fix it, as he
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: has done multiple times throughout history.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: Now, your studies, I think, really solidify the concept of
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: pre trip rapture of the Church in other was, over
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: a long period of time, many centuries, that's been the
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: dominant thought of Christians.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we can show many early church fathers from Papias, Irenaeus, Hippolytus,
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: several of the guys that were pre pre millennial. And
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: then we have this amillennial thing in the Middle Ages.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: But even in that period, there were a few people
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: here and there. And then when you get to the
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: Protestant Reformation. They pretty much stayed a millennial. But you
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: have a ton of people in the fourteen, fifteen and
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: sixteen hundreds that believed in a pre trib rapture.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: Now that sort of contradicts what I've For many people
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: say that they have the prea Trier rapture is a
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: late invention, nineteenth century invention by someone who was a
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: little too excited when he read the Bible and he
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: mistranslated and came up with this bogus concept of the
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: pre Trier rapture of the Church. But what you're doing
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: takes us back long before that, right.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you could say that Darby made it popular or
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: you know, made it mainstream teaching again. But the fact
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: that other people taught it it doesn't prove that it's
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: right or wrong. But you can't say that nobody ever
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: taught this until a certain date and then you know,
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: Darby invented it. It'd be like me saying the KJV
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: was something I wrote, you know, the Ken Johnson version. No,
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: the KJV goes back a lot further than me.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: Right, Well, that is I think that's one of the
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: useful aspects of this book. Paul's Ancient Hebrew and again
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: it makes you raise your eyebrows Thesalonian epistles and again
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: kind of to close this thinking off, if you're in
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: a debate concerning the rapture of the Church and you
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: want to make a point and based on the research
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: in this book, what are you going to be telling people?
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: Well, the point is not that it's the original or
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: anything else, but it's an old translation. We've put the
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: inner linear in the back so you can double check
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: all the Hebrew words if you want to, so it's
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: very easy to study. The point is that we have
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: all of these menuscripts, not just that book, but all
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: the early Church fathers and all the other things saying
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: the same thing. And I think that's very comforting. And
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: to those people that think, no, it's got to be
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: made up or by Darby or something else, the only
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: thing I can say is, sorry, the evidence doesn't show that.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: Can I ask much you're working on now?
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Actually, with those the Hebrew manuscripts, we have most,
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: if not all, of the New Testament, and so we're
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: going to look for the same pattern in these things
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: and try to go ahead and do the rest of
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: Paul's epistles. That's what I'm working on now.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: And I guess you could call those the forgotten texts
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: in a way. Yeah, where did they come from?
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: Well, there's manuscripts from all over all over Europe and
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: they were put together. Now the Israeli Antikities Department has
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: them and you can go online and look at them.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: But the interesting thing there's kind of this little side
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: note in history in the eighteen hundreds. You know how
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: like with the Dead Sea Scrolls, we've had people back
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: in the nine hundreds thirteen hundreds, and then like Moses
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: Shapiro with the Moses Scroll, they turn out to all
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: be real Dead Sea scrolls, but everybody said they were fake.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: The Dead Sea Scrolls now prove that those things were real. Well,
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: the same kind of thing happens with these. There was
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: a two guys, Silkison and Ginsburg that went traveled all
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: over Europe trying to find these exact manuscripts and they
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: finally got it together published it, and everybody says no,
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: they just backwards translated it their liars and it was
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: forgotten about. Wow, interesting thing about it, we have a
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: whole silks Sulkison Ginsburg translation and they match these manuscripts again,
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: you know, like the extra little sentence that was in
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: there is same exact wording, same spelling, same spot, So
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: there's no way they could have backwards translated it and
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: accidentally invented something that had been written in another manuscript.
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: So you have all this different evidence of this whole
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: strain of manuscripts. So it's fascinating to look at.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: Well for someone like you, it is soone Again. We
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: have a joke around here that Ken Johnson had that
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: wonderful basement study of his. I've never been there, but
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: I've heard about it. And he goes, he closes the door,
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: goes down and disappears there for a while. And only
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: he would disappear with those ancient manuscripts the way he does,
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: way way above my pay grade. But I'm glad that
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: you're doing it, and come back and share the next time.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: Whatever you're working on will be always fascinating, Ken Johnson.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: I'm Gary Steerman. This is Prophecy Watchers, and we'll see
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: you soon.