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Christmas in Narnia or Middle-earth: the Pros and Cons · Mythmakers

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Hello and welcome to MythMakers. MythMakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy
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creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding, I'm
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an author but I also run the Oxford Rep Centre for Fantasy. And as I have been on many
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occasions this year I am joined by my good friend Jacob Renica from across the pond. And
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Jacob who is an expert on all things to do with the world of fantasy games in his professional
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capacity, he is also like me, breaking on talking and CS Lewis. So we thought today we would
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discuss the vex question of would we like to spend Christmas in Narnia or in one of Tolkien's
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worlds. So Jacob, hello, welcome. Thanks Julia. So let's start off shall we with the one that's
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most obviously a Christmas setting, the Lion and the Witch and the Wardrobe. We talked about that
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a few episodes ago celebrating the 75th anniversary. But let's just lean in now to its seasonal relevance
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because of course there are now Christmas shows based on the Lion and the Witch and the Wardrobe
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and others. Tell me what your impression of Narnia at Christmas is, would you like to be there?
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Yeah, I think so at least in the time of Lion and the Witch and the Wardrobe when that's
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happening chronologically, maybe not like a little before that because it wouldn't ever be Christmas.
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And I don't think I can handle just pure winter for an age. So but yeah, so I think, yeah, it does
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in revisiting it specifically through the lens of the Christmas season and Father Christmas and kind
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of tying together Tolkien's approach to Father Christmas and Lewis's approach to Father Christmas.
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Yeah, there's some really interesting things this time that stood out that I hadn't really
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picked up on. I don't think as much last time. So this was yeah, so reading it through that lens,
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I thought was really helpful and really interesting and fruitful for helping to develop what
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Lewis's idea of Christmas or his ideal of Christmas and Father Christmas in particular. So
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this is yeah, I'm looking forward to our conversation. So I think what we're dealing with in both
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writers to sort of draw them together is the idea of the Winter Festival, which is obviously a
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festival that predates Christianity for a start. But the idea of when in the Northern Hemisphere's
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it moves from the shortest day of the year and that's the turning point of the year and the days
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start getting longer. And it seems to me that in Narnia, what he's doing is he's got kind of two
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versions of the Winter Festival because the white witch is very close to me to the folk
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laureate tradition, the more Hans Christian Anderson snow queen version of this. And there's lots
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of parallels, the physical parallel of this beautiful woman on a sleigh who enchants the vulnerable
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boy and that whole story where Kai in the snow queen story, his heart melts. I think it's when
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Gerda cries or there's a sort of point of thought should we say that's the key word later on in
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that story when she goes to retrieve him. And Edmund's journey isn't someone coming to get him,
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it's a personal journey where he his own heart melts as spring arrives because he sees the he's
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on the wrong side, you know, it's that moment. So there's a lot of folk laureate resonances between
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that version of Winter. Who knows, maybe the snow queen did have not the snow queen that's
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Freudian slip, maybe the white witch did hold fantastic winter festivals in her palace. So we
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don't know, but we suspect not. Right. Yeah, certainly cold at the very least it's cold. And if she
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was if she was displeased with anyone, we know exactly how that would have turned out. So yeah,
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no, I think and then again, looking at those so that's really interesting that kind of two winter
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festivals, kind of the older kind of Yule festival and the Christmas. When I was rereading
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this chapter, the chapters that dealt with the white witch, first encountering Edmund and with
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the father Christmas chapter in language in the word drug. One of the things that I was struck with
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was the parallels that are clearly set up. Right. So you get first first introduction to these
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as a bells. Right. So the sound of bells with both. And this is what actually scares the children
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with the beavers is because they hear the bells and they're assuming that it's the it's the witch.
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But then you know, they both arrive on sledges, hold by reindeer. And you know, at the helm,
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you have well, you have a dwarf actually doing the driving with the white witch, but the main
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you know, occupant of the sledge is this kind of winter festival figure that you kind of pointed
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out Julia. And so just look at their descriptions, right. The witch is this is this kind of like white
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pure white with just this kind of way. Lewis says kind of like it's unnatural kind of like
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bright red on her lips. This very kind of austere figure, whereas father Christmas has this,
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you know, kind of like a ruddy, this kind of jovial warm demeanor. So that's one of the differences.
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The reindeer, the size of the reindeer at the white witch has these kind of like white shorter
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shorter reindeer that have like gold. Their antlers are described as having gold. So like very
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beautiful, but cold. Whereas the reindeer that father Christmas has are brown. And they're,
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you know, making noises and seem more natural, which is, yeah, which which is interesting. So
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they're both so they're both kind of arriving in the same manner using the same imagery, but then
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of course, how they're interacting with the children and like the way that they give gifts,
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I thought was was particularly interesting. So the white witch she gives Edmund gifts based on
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what he wants, right? So it's she was finding what he would want in both what would would allure him
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most what would kind of she would she be able to kind of pull the strings and and reel him in
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to get her for him. And so she's giving him his heart's desire. So it was a gift based on
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what he wanted. Whereas father Christmas comes, he doesn't even ask what they want. He has,
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he sees what they need. And he gives that to them instead. And you know, some of them are happy
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with it with with what they receive. Some of them are confused. Maybe even a little concerned,
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like Lucy, when she's told you know that she's going to be in battle and all she has is this,
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you know, vile and a dagger, whereas Peter gets this, you know, large sword and that's a gorgeous
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shield. But father Christmas is giving them what they is essentially like what what they need,
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what he sees that they need an instant gift based on a perceived need instead of a gift based on
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a want for the purpose of extortion later. So that was something I hadn't noticed before. It was
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like the type of gifts that the then they'll manner in which the gifts are being given between
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the two of those. So then, of course, you also have the drinks that are being provided. Yeah,
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they both have hot drinks. Yeah, yeah, which is interesting, right? So with the with the with the
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which she's giving him the drink and would it's not described it says, you know, it's kind of like
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warm and frothy and sweet. You know, something that Edmund had never tasted before. And she uses that
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drink as a way to get him hungry to try to get him to lead him on because she says, you know,
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it's dreadful not to eat. If you drink it, you know, if you've had you've drunk something,
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it's dreadful not to have something to eat afterwards. So she is providing all that. She was like,
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oh, yeah, so you want a little of this. You need a little drink. Oh, yeah. Now you need something more
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to eat. And so she's kind of like slowly stringing him along. Whereas in the father Christmas episode,
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right, it's just kind of as he's leaving almost as an afterthought, they say pulls out this plate
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and these cups and they're not exactly sure they assume that it's coming from his bag. But he just
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somehow pulls out this, you know, tea set and gives that to him and says, okay, you know,
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you know, Merry Christmas, right? Well, it long lives, it long lives the true king and heads off. So he
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he doesn't want anything in return. It's this kind of true free gift. And he's not father Christmas
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isn't providing the food. That was something that was provided by the community themselves, right? So
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the beavers, it was Mrs. Beaver in particular, everybody else members trying to free everyone out
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the door because they were trying to run from the white witch. But Mrs. Beaver said, no, like,
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hold on. If we're going out, we need to have a proper, you know, proper food. And she says that
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she was glad that she brought the bread knife, which is funny because she says that right after
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heater is examining his sword. And so she says that she was glad that she brought the bread knife
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first slicing the bread in the hand that they have there. So it was like the community. So it's more
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kind of participatory that father Christmas is providing a part of this meal and leaving it for
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others. Whereas the white witch is kind of the soul, you know, the the the founder of the feast
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and like the own like the controller of the feast. Whereas yeah, father Christmas is this kind of
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this just, you know, overflowing giving of gifts and of wisdom and giving them what the what he
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perceives that they might need that they might not see themselves. So yeah, so those are those are
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some some of the things that that jumped out to me this time. I don't know, but yeah, well,
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what do you think? Like comparing father Christmas and white witch there for just some of the things
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that you know, Julia? Well, one gives them the other takes away. So it's not just the children and
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the beavers who get the gifts because we also find out that his father Christmas has been giving
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other gifts to other groups because the the white witch comes across the dinner party or the
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Christmas party and very much reigns on that parade or snows on that parade by turning into
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but it's a bounty of father Christmas has been shared. So he's passing through with generous
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generosity and going on the what they need rather than what they want. He does give them what they
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want as well and he gives them things which they don't think to ask for. So Mr Beaver gets his
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I think he's damn fixed or something like that. Yeah, yeah, get some what saying machine.
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I'm just saying machine. Yeah. I mean, it's what if you'd ask them what they put on their
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Christmas list as beavers, that would be like right up the top. So that but they haven't asked for
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it. They're given it. Whereas if you notice with Edwin, he asked for more and he's told, oh,
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no, no, you can't have more unless you do this for me, which is that extortion element. He's been
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given the magically intoxicating, I mean, probably who knows what was in that Turkish delight.
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It could just be greed, but it could also be some kind of foul magic that upon it, but there's
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a feeling that it's all not good, like a driver. He's taking in. And so and she's she didn't
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won't give any more. There's no little extra and there's no sparkle. There's no if I've given
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you enough just so that you want more is the drug pusher side of the white witch. So you it's
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I think obviously the two gift givers are very clear, but the other associations with them just
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spinning off from the pictures of around them and their sleigh. Of course, the queen is associated
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with wolves and the wild. And that goes back to this folklore idea of who is the big enemy in the
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world? Well, it's the big bad wolf. So she's got more grim and and that is her association.
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Father Christmas isn't associated with any of that. And he's passing through. He's he's going
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on to other lands. It's that he's a figure who passed through just spreading cheer. Of course,
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the big issue that has been written much ink has been spilled on the question of does he fit?
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In a world of talking animals, should we be bringing in this Christian story figure of Father
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Christmas? Who probably himself is already a sort of mashup of some saints and some traditions
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around Christmas? So I don't know. What do you think about the does he fit? Question. Yeah, this is
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yeah, it's it's always you know, it does seem jarring as a bit, but again, I was reading it alongside
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Father Christmas and kind of in conversation with Tolkien this time. I don't I see I see him fitting
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in a little bit better in the sense that so Lewis says that when the children see Father Christmas
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that you see you see characters that are from Narnia differently that they that they're like
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there's there's like this this vivacity to them. There's there's you know that they they seem
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more real in Narnia. So he he suggests that Father Christmas is actually a native of Narnia
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and that the pictures that we see of Father Christmas are you know imperfect you know just
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getcha trying to capture Father Christmas, but when you're in Narnia you can actually see him
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as he as he truly is. And so suggesting that Father Christmas comes from Narnia in a sense or
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that's where his where he belongs. I see that as kind of being similar to Tolkien's early attempt
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to you know create this kind of er mythology, this kind of foundational myth for England,
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that in a sense kind of explains all of the different fairy tales and legends that exist.
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So you're kind of similar to like linguistically the reconstruction of Poto-Indo-European,
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right? So we don't have anybody actually writing in this you know hypothesized Poto-Indo-European.
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There's this attempt attempt to come back for the the different related languages to find
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you know what is what what was the one language that these all sprung from and Tolkien is trying
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to do that with his especially in the earlier myths that he's creating. Like you have you know with
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Baron and Lutheran when Lutheran's in a tower you have these kinds of you see this attempt to have
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the Rapunzel myth kind of having this is where the Rapunzel myth comes from is here. So he's so
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Tolkien's gathering all these different myths and trying to get like a unifying idea behind them,
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a unifying myth that then could in some ways explain the proliferation of fairy tales legends
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and such. And so when Lewis says that Father Christmas is actually coming here is coming from
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Narnia and then goes out into the world I saw kind of echoes of that in in some ways a way that
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Lewis is trying to incorporate right like you know a Greek mythology and some elements of
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North mythology. And so whereas Tolkien is doing that within fairly for him kind of more strict I
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think regimented the parameters. Lewis is doing that more. Lewis would say I think that he's
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doing it more generously that he's trying to incorporate more myths whereas Tolkien is more
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systematic and particular about how he's trying to weave different myths together at least and
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Tolkien's earlier in his earlier mission kind of what he sees as his task there. So so for me
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him weaving in Father Christmas it isn't as jarring by virtue of the fact that again like he's
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pulling in all these different mythologies but he's also bringing in the secondary you know the
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primary world into the secondary world. So there's a mingling of the primary and secondary world
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that is in part of Tolkien's legendary I mean you know the the middle earth project
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which is different from the Father Christmas project where there is this free mingling between
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the primary and secondary worlds which we'll talk about which we can talk about later but I think
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in this sense it seems I also I also almost get the echoes of hints of Tolkien rubbing off on Lewis
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here with the Father Christmas character in the sense that Father Christmas
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appears as kind of a sort of new catastrophe it's a you can't astrophic moment for the children
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right they're on the run and you wouldn't expect the one thing you wouldn't expect
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is Father Christmas at this point but yeah here he comes and he gives them exactly the gifts that
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they need that are going to help them and then is off similar to the Eagles at Mountain Doom right
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so the one of the problems that some people have with with the return of the King is the appearance
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of the Eagles right there seems to come out of nowhere but Tolkien in his mind is saying this is
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you catastrophic moment it's something that comes that you can't expect to happen that will happen
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once and then you know changes it's the happy turn of events and that seems to be kind of what's
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happening here although it's in the middle of the story and not just at the very end you have a kind
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of a second you catastrophic moment with Aslan returning from the dead as well so so I so I think
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if you're again putting these two kind of in conversation with each other with Lewis and Tolkien
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I think I see more ways that Father Christmas does kind of fit in and what Lewis is trying to do
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than I did before so it didn't it didn't bother me as much this time because in part I think I was
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expecting it and I wanted to see it was kind of trying to drill down at what Lewis was trying to do
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with Father Christmas so what do you think Julia? I think I might have set you up there because
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my response here is come on adults get over ourselves because when I read it as a child it was a
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wonderful exciting moment in the same way I anticipated Father Christmas coming how is a child
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if you're not doing a Christian world with like nativity scenes how is a child going to know that
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Christmas has arrived well you sent in Father Christmas you know that isn't obvious answer so you
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can think up you can think up complicated reasons it like you know sort of in planet Narnia there's
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a well thought through sort of examination of the roots of Father Christmas and all the rest of it
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but actually I think this is it's actually simpler this is a story written for children
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in the 1950s and Christmas comes with Father Christmas and he has a sleigh and he has reindeer
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so and then he goes he doesn't interfere if he hung around then I think the issues would get
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problematic as to who he is and what he's doing but he comes and he goes and he moves on he's like
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a natural phenomenon of what weather system he passes through a moves on so I think it's fine
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if it was an adult novel then I would ask more searching questions but as it's not I think
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great this speaks to a child reader so yeah I do agree with your idea that he is like a sudden
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turn to the goods which is the kind of you can ask for definition definitely but for my pure
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reader's perspective yeah absolutely if this is for primarily for children yes then the name
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the name of the chapter is the spell is breaking so this is so so Father Christmas is the herald
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of Aslan in a sense right he says right he confirms that Aslan's on the move and he is really kind
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of almost if you're looking at the Christian analogies with Christmas this is the kind of the
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jump on the Baptist figure that's kind of heralding the way is giving his gift beforehand
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not completely changing everything but essentially saying that yes the spell is breaking and
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Christmas is like Christmas is coming aslan's coming to to conquer the white witch and the hole
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but the white witch has had so yeah no that all that all makes perfect sense I don't think very
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many quite you know children would be asking in what sense Father Christmas evoked x y or z and
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world building wise how it fits into there you're right the same way that children wouldn't
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batten i at you know niads being next to trope being you know being and so next to giants and
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trolls and werewolves right yeah we are we are allowed to do these things in fantasy okay let's move
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on so let's park Christmas in non-year because we've got to decide if we're going to spend our
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Christmas there or not but we'll just leave it parked and we are going to move over into Tolkien's
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versions of Christmas now I was thinking for our conversation we've got obviously the Father
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Christmas letters then we've got which we'll talk about first then we've got middle earth itself
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in ways in which it does and doesn't have Christmas and then at the very end I thought we would look at
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so going in the green night because this is a work which is set at Christmas and which Tolkien
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translated so we'll just dip into a little bit of his translation so we can celebrate his
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that version of Christmas that he has interpreted or translated from the Galwayn poet
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okay so the Father Christmas letters and you have a small child are you writing long complicated
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letters in the guise of Father Christmas do them not not yet but I did I did start doing that with my
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before my child was born and I had just had nieces and nephews I did invent taking Tolkien as a
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queue I did create kind of a larger like mythology before I tried coordinating letters between
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sets of of nieces and nephews that like some information would be parceled to this family other
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information would be to this family there are pictures a little illustrations that kind of filled
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in the gaps in the hopes that they would be talking with each other about it my naive hope was
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that they would be excited and would want to find out more about it when really they were more
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interested in other things that Christmas than these absolutely they put far too much time into
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that's incredibly sweet and so I'm your family can look forward to this in a year or two
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I think it's clearly the Father Christmas letters are clearly the whimsical side of Tolkien's
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well-building as you were pointing out to me I see it as very much Tolkien the Father the nursery
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Tolkien the the place where the Hobbit comes from you get his drawing of course beautiful drawings
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in that sort of knife style he has which is very hard to do it's not that naive at all
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his handwriting skills the beautiful calligraphy on the letters and the very shaky yeah
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when he's writing Father Christmas's letter it's like it's perfectly wobbling he says
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he's shaking yeah he's shaking and but it's but it's consistent throughout and then the multiple
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colors that he's using when he uses greening he'll start the sentences with red you know kind of like
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a like it looks like it reads like a medieval manuscript when you look at the actual pictures of
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these which is which is really fun and I'm sure he had a blast doing those so in terms of where
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we're spending Christmas we have a choice here we could be in the I suppose the early 1930s Tolkien
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household in Northmore Road among the family receiving these letters or we could be in the imagined
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world of Father Christmas and the polar bear up in the north what did you think of the hilarious
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goings on at the north pole yeah they're really silly yeah so this is very much like you said kind
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of in the in the vein of the Hobbit this this Tolkien in the in the nursery telling stories
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to the things that are going to entertain the children this isn't he he's not being festive
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yes I don't think you don't see the same level of of of attention to detail or consistency well
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you do you see consistency you see some of the same like underlying tendencies as he's developing
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the stories but it's more it's it is it is more silly there's a lot more play like play on words
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and just mistakes and kind of buffooned characters at the North polar bear is just you know
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comically inept at a number of different things always creating problems and so yeah so I think you
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see more of a that sense of humor and kind of explicitly like drawing in kids and finding things
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that he thinks they would think are funny to try to get them engaged with the with the story
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instead of just like laying out okay here's the mythology of father Christmas that doesn't seem
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to be kind of what he's primarily concerned about that's kind of a secondary concern he just
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wants to tell an entertaining story to his children that's kind of been like little bits and pieces
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little snatches of narrative and feel like they're kind of part of the story I think that's part
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of what you have here is like drawing them in when he says you know that here's why you received
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what you did or why you didn't receive what you did or you're part of a larger story where like
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especially during the war years for the father Christmas letters for world war two he's talking
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about all the other children that the people are far you know there's more people are away from
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their homes than are at home and he laments the fact that there isn't that he has a trouble
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getting supplies to be able to get the gifts for other children and so many other children are
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far worse all off than the Tolkien children so he really kind of like invites them into this world
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and have some feel like they're part of this larger story themselves which I thought was really
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charming and I think would be special for the children right that they feel that
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that they're getting special attention from father Christmas and that they're yeah kind of drawn
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into this world one of the things he says father Christmas says I hope after talking about these
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troubles with goblins he says I hope your toys don't smell of goblin so they might I could see them
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kind of like maybe sniffing at the train to see if they can smell goblin on the train right so just
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get a little touches like that world billing that make it yeah more like inviting it's kind of an
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invitational world building in some senses so yeah that does one of my kind of I think first
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response as to what he's doing there in engaging with the children at their level and and what would
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engage them there is a sort of collapse as the letters go on where literally underneath
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while the Christmas is house there's this whole world of goblins and much more like in the drawings
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you've got a little column sort of peeking around the corner and it is as though the world of
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the Hobbit is sort of creeping into the world of father Christmas letters and because this is a
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these are family letters meant for a home audience who get the references it's probably a joke here
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as well about how father is always going back to this world and everything comes back to this
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conversation he's having with his own work so in terms of where you would spend Christmas it's
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quite risky spending Christmas in towards the end of these letters up in Father Christmas's
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house because he might have to go to war right yeah that's the one thing is that so there's war
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and he does it so war so one of the things like World War II this is something that is you know
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massive and probably like the front of the mind of a lot of people and his children as well for
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how they're being affected by this and so you do have right like several different skirmishes
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with goblins and even talks about and this is what you like you said like kind of like you
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used to get later in the letters where you kind of get a deeper world building where he says you
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know there's a specific mention he has of a conflict with goblins in 1453 right he gives a specific
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year and he says that was the last time that we have this kind of goblin onslaught and then he's
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talking about these things and like broads you know swatches of time he says like I think we
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probably got rid of the goblins for at least another hundred years so father Christmas is is thinking
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in terms of hundreds of years and like millennia and so we see this is began this this this
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this broader picture that's being painted that doesn't include like you said in the caves beneath
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that you have where he starts kind of going into you just do we see the the the Tolkien the world
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building to Tolkien about like larger worlds maybe not things that his kids would necessarily
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appreciate but like his own world building inclinations where he starts talking about you know
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different species and like the ancestor species or what was above and then the cave drawings
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and that's where you get into like black and grace mentions like maybe looks like black magic was
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possibly being described in some of these pictures and then in the war in the wars themselves
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you get then you know the naming in the traditional you know like fantasy like epic fantasy
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uh uh uh you know the paradigm of you have like named weapons or named things the objects of power
30:21
and so he has this horn that he blows this the for for help it's kind of very analogous to the horn
30:26
of gondor that essentially father Christmas dust off and then uses to to call to call for help what
30:34
was the the name of that uh of that it was something it was wind you know quite remember that it was
30:42
so he actually so he names he names the horn and then he brings it up a second time later
30:48
but then but then later like when it's just to persilla at the very tail end of the letter so Tolkien's
30:54
youngest daughter um he says that you know everything while the world the world the broader world
30:59
is at war his own world at the north pole is at peace and so kind of giving kind of this there's
31:06
a bastion of peace and safety that father Christmas in some ways is trying to spread to children so
31:13
war it comes in there it kind of sets off I think Tolkien's greater world building impulses
31:21
but then he kind of goes back to saying that like okay this is actually the north pole and
31:26
father Christmas is ultimately should be a comforting figure um and that's kind of what he ends up
31:31
lands on at the very end of the letters um so what do you yeah what your your thoughts are on
31:37
on some of Tolkien's world building uh as he kind of goes along with uh with father Christmas
31:44
well I you know it's it reminds me a bit of um the world of the civil chair with the underworld
31:51
um that I don't know that Lewis would have known about these letters um unless they just chatted about
31:59
them but there's an element of familiarity in the it is sort of this whole other world's beneath the
32:04
surface world I would love to see um a Christmas film which adapts like a like they've done with
32:12
Beatrix Potter where they have Beatrix Potter as a character with her animated characters
32:18
as part of the story um I would love to see a version of this which is looking at Tolkien
32:26
in his real world with this breaking in I think be great um that would be fun yeah so that's the
32:34
bit I like I like the in this frame I like the his his real existence of the thirties and forties
32:41
with this commentary going on in the father Christmas letters okay so let's move on to middle
32:47
earth I was having a think about middle earth in its calendars it doesn't mention many festivals
32:53
during the course of Lord of the Rings um but they are there in the calendar so if you look at the
32:59
Hobbit calendar it has two days of you which are outside the count of the years so clearly there is
33:08
a new old being the old name for that midwinter festival uh clearly being a Hobbit say we'd
33:16
properly celebrate it I'm sure with eating and drinking and telling tales by the fire
33:20
perhaps playing in the snow um so that's the sort of feel of that but it's not a world which makes
33:31
or not the way that Tolkien's imagined middle earth we don't often land on a festival
33:39
there's an interesting bit in the appendix about how some of the events
33:43
that happen in Lord of the Rings are so important they themselves become festivals
33:49
which is rather nice um so you want to dig deep it's in the calendar bit if you want to have a
33:53
look at that but there is I think a coding of how important it is underneath because
34:02
Tolkien uses key dates to move his story on and the one for Christmas is that if you look at the
34:10
the sort of list of what happens when the fellowship leave Rivendell at dusk on the 25th of December
34:17
so he's sort of marking it as an important date so I think we ought to be left to spin ideas about
34:28
what this winter festival would have been like so what is your feeling about a middle earth
34:34
you all tied what that what would it be like and where which of the cultures would you want to be with?
34:40
yeah it seems yeah right so the the cozy Christmas clearly is at the shire
34:47
and that's that I mean you'd want to state the shire anyway for a cozy for a cozy time the
34:54
coziest of times would be would be at the shire so yeah so that that makes sense that that would
34:59
that that kind of festival and celebration of the festival would be associated with the hobbits
35:05
here but yeah but right Tolkien is trying to like explicitly stay away from Christian holiday or
35:13
even kind of like religious pheromones more or less he does when we have we have a few different
35:19
instances of them doing things you know like turning you know as they're eating with pheromir
35:24
right and kind of this kind of ritual of like turning to a particular direction and in silence and
35:32
and you have some of that in right there a period of talking about new manure kind of going into the
35:39
broader like lost hails where they actually have you know temples being created in some worship
35:45
but Tolkien really wanted to kind of stay away from this intrusion of of of of our you know
35:52
modern understandings of religion and religiosity into into into into middle earth as he was telling
35:59
it right but yeah so I think you kind of get hints of it and like you guys brilliant the calendar
36:04
what you're mentioning with Rivendell like leaving the fellowship with leaving on the 25th of December
36:10
as Harolding certainly symbolically that's this moment of hope right that's when it goes from
36:15
the darkest day of the year as you mentioned earlier Julia these kind of winter festivals
36:20
celebrating the turn from darkness from ever darkening days into the you know further brightening
36:28
of days and the daylight getting longer and longer in the northern hemisphere at least so yeah so
36:34
I think that's the best that we really have and so you know who knows you know what would what would
36:39
a dwarf equivalent of you all you see I think the doors would do a really good eating and drinking
36:46
festival right and I think they would celebrate it where I'm not sure is because of the timelines
36:52
of elves that for them you know the passing seasons are but ripples in the river and Rivendell
37:00
seems to be always switched on to feasting and poetry without there being a particular event
37:06
whether or not they would celebrate it it might just be it be lost in the in the passage of years
37:13
so if you want to actually have a you all tied I think you might be quite quite good to go to
37:19
even the dwarves the men all the hobbits I actually play switch is a bit like shy really is
37:26
so I think I would have to go away I think probably I would find it a bit much the drinking
37:35
expected of one at a festival in some kind of twalvin kingdom like the lonely mountain I wouldn't
37:44
mind I don't know about gondor it might be a bit too far south to really sort of fill the the
37:50
bite of winter but I think the place I would go because it's most like the medieval Christmas
37:56
is I would go to Rohan I would invite myself to the you all tied because I think it would be a bit
38:02
like Sagawaen in the green nights I'm just going to read you a little bit of Tolkien's translation
38:09
of this wonderful poem um so this is right at the beginning of Sagawaen in the green night
38:16
this king that's Arthur this king lear camelot at christmas tied with many a lovely lord
38:23
leashes most noble indeed at the round table all those tried brethren amid merriment unmatched
38:31
a mirth without care they're turnied many a time the trusty knights and justed full joyously
38:38
these gentle lords then to the court they came at carols to play for there the feast was unfailing
38:47
full fifteen days with all meets and all moth that men could devise that sounds a bit like
38:55
what they might get up to in Medusel don't you think all right that's great that's beautiful
39:02
yeah the fifteen days right so isn't just a single day yeah I'm not sure where the fifteen days
39:07
comes from I must have been some medieval expanded version of the twelve days of christmas
39:13
maybe they started counting earlier it's always a debate about whether what point you start whether
39:19
or not twelve night for example is the fifth or the sixth of january if you if you google that
39:26
you'll find that opinions differ so there is clearly a sort of slightly baggy version of
39:33
christmas tide so okay we are now going to have to make our decision we've we've gone through
39:43
our choices we're going to have christmas in nania but after the white witch is done because
39:49
there is no christmas otherwise christmas in nania or we can have christmas in 1930s Oxford with the
39:58
Tolkien household and receiving christmas father christmas letters or we can spend it with father
40:04
christmas up at the north pole in that fantasy version or we can go to one of these middle earth
40:11
kingdoms and celebrate it or outside chance you can go and join Arthur and his court and
40:20
just a going in the green night Jacob which door are you choosing yeah I think this is yeah so
40:28
yeah so food like you said I think like the hobbits if it's turned in terms of food
40:36
yeah Lewis also in nania also has some some pretty lovely descriptions of food as well
40:42
right so I think they both do food pretty well but there's more of a focus emphasis on it or an
40:47
entire you know species the hobbits that kind of build their life around eating and food and there's
40:54
a lot more of it kind of built in so I think that one I think the edge for christmas feasting would
41:00
go to middle earth as opposed to father christmas letters necessarily and probably and probably the
41:06
Tolkien household in the thirties if you're looking at select thinking which is kind of mentioned
41:13
you don't have middle earth winds birds by bird sherbert you with the number of songs that you
41:20
have mentioned there right so there's clearly this tradition of singing and it's it's more
41:25
prevalent there the tone I think tone is a different is it is an interesting question at the
41:31
the tone of the the winter holiday and these different works so this is going to be interesting
41:38
to hear thoughts on this Julia so christmas and middle earth I assume that it would be at least
41:45
from the elves perspective and those who had you know dealings with the elves christmas I assume
41:50
would would kind of be framed and at least in edicts being expressed to us like as it's written
41:54
about in word of the rings being framed by the long defeat right so christmas is bitter sweet it
42:00
would be this kind of reminding of hope but the reality is things are just going to keep getting
42:08
darker and darker exactly so I think so there's the sense that I guess kind of in in in middle
42:17
earth then that christmas that it would be more of a bitter sweet christmas from taking that long
42:23
term now for hobbits who wouldn't have had you know frequent dealing with elves you know in the
42:27
times of you know just before the fellowship of the ring then the other proud they're insulated
42:32
and they're just happy just being hobbits and not a care in the world beyond their own community
42:38
and the annoyances of their neighbors but for the larger middle earth project especially is that
42:44
we kind of as it comes across in the Lord of the Rings but yeah I think it would be kind of it
42:49
would definitely be bitter sweet and so I think for if you're if you're the type of person that
42:55
um is you know you feel worn down and you're on empty and you need to feel like
43:03
there's there's a way that they can face insurmountable odds to get through just to get just to
43:09
get through and come out on the other side um that fighting for a good cause no matter how much
43:15
damage it's causing you is worthwhile then that's really I think the story that like the christmas
43:20
in middle earth would be this sense of like survival and hope in the face of insurmountable odds
43:26
and that there's still value in fighting even the least person kind of fighting against there so
43:32
sheer grit and determination win out in the force of good so I think if that's what you need
43:38
at christmas time and sometimes sometimes you need that I'm gonna have to put you on the spot you've
43:42
got to choose just one okay I would say all of them give me all sorts of reasons I'll say yeah so
43:48
I'm gonna say for yeah for it like narnia at least right right so today for the state of
43:55
the world and household an infusion of like hope uh I think um uh I would I think we're
44:05
we're kindness or mercy uh wins and is easier to feel uh joyful with in I think for the brightness
44:15
of joy I would have to go with narnia today I will I will do it for help for help about I will say that
44:22
how about not I'm not going to gawain gawain's world because great big giants come in and cut
44:27
people's heads off so no no thanks not going there you have his head covered in fact um yeah
44:35
middle earth I'd just love to go there but but not necessarily at christmas so I'm following you
44:41
I'm going through the wardrobe with you and I'm going to narnia for christmas because talking animals
44:48
you know aslan mermaids I mean and father christmas you actually get presents too so father
44:54
because you get delivered you get food delivered to your house by by father christmas so the delivery
44:58
service I think is yeah is more so definitely i'm going to care powerful uh wrapping up warmly
45:07
and mr tumblr's can you know play me a tune on his pan types that would be a wonderful christmas
45:14
so yeah i'm going to narnia so are we wish everybody who's been listening to us uh a very
45:19
merry christmas and we hope that you have found your hopeful joy for christmas wherever you are
45:26
around the world so merry christmas merry christmas and don't forget to celebrate for 15 days
45:32
okay thank you very much
45:41
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