Latest / Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast / BPS 324: Screenwriting the 80's Classic Cocoon with Tom Benedek

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BPS 324: Screenwriting the 80's Classic Cocoon with Tom Benedek · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

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today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis. Hey, Tom, thanks all for
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coming on the show. I'm really happy to be here, Dave, thanks
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for having me. Oh, you know, my pleasure. Tom. You
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know, you're a person I've been I've been mean to have on the podcast
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for a while. You know, I really admire you know, your work
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and the work that you and Scott do for Screenwriting Masterclass, and you know,
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it's good that we could actually, you know, have this conversation now.
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Oh it's great. I'm glad you've been enjoying classes and it's been good
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to have you in with us in our in our classes. Oh yeah,
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I've been enjoying the classes a lot. And you know there's a question I
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usually uh asked most people, Uh, you know when when we start off,
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is I want to ask Tom you know, how did you get started,
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you know, in the film industry. How I get started? Well,
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I I we fell in love with movies when I was a kid.
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And we had a neighbor who was a filmmaker, Burt Ballot Band, and
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we were on the set of his movies a couple of times. And I
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just love to go to the movies. I have this weird you know.
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There were these movie theaters in our town and I would go and see The
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West. We'd go to see the you know, when I was a little
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kid, the the you know, twenty cartoons, Matt and Ay in the
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afternoon and then an abern Castella movie. And my mom my parents really liked
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movies. My mom really liked movies. So like the first movie I saw
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in a theater was Bridge over the River Kwai, and she took us to
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New York and so that in a theater when I was a little kid.
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So I was just I really I just always really loved movies and I would
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just go. I wouldn't go by myself when I was a kid, but
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I read this one memory of I really wanted to go see this this Western
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that was playing, and my friend Larry didn't want to go. So I
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actually said, okay, I'll buy your ticket, So I like paid for
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him to go, just so we would do that in that afternoon. I
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think the movie was She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, you know, And I
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have no idea what you know how that whatever promotion for that movie made me
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want to see it. But yeah, so I just really liked movies,
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and then when I was in college, I started making films and I just
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you know, decided that's what I wanted to do. And at that time,
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there was sort of the the the the seventies and the eighties was a
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great time for movies. There's a lot of excitement and there are a lot
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of film students who were breaking into film. And I did my junior abroad
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in Paris and went to film school and made a film. It was actually
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in French, was my student film. And I then came out to California
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when I finished school with my French student film under my arm and a spec
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script that I'd written and tried to make my way and you know, sell
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the script and get work and that was a process. But then, you
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know, I worked at you I did like different kinds of jobs and this
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guy hired me to write and direct an educational film which was like it was
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a story film. It was sort of a red balloon kind of film.
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And I made that film and it won an award and a festival, which
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kind of gave me a little bit of hope. And I kept writing scripts
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along the way, and then I got an agent and had some jobs and
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you know, nothing to nothing that really panned out into anything. They were
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fun and interesting jobs that I had. I optioned to script to a guy,
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to actually Rick Rosenthal, who became a director and TV director and still
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very active out here as a company called Whitewater, and so I opted to
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script to him. And then I wrote a script that uh got got some
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interest from Bob Zemeckis through my brother was was a lawyer and he was working
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with Larry Caston and Zamex was a friend of his, and I wrote the
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script. My brother liked the script and he gave it to those guys.
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He gave it to Caston and kast and gave it to Zemeckis and Szemeckis really
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loved the script and he wanted to make the movie. So you know,
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that was that was my first taste of anything, which really was going to
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be you know, breaking into the you know, so scaling the walls of
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the studios, so to speak. And that project ended up nothing ended up
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happening with it. You know, we because Bob Zamechas I thought, you
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know, I was like this, he had done used cars and I want
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to hold your hand. He was spiel He and Bob Gail were Spielberg sort
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of protegees of the time, and then Spielberg directed their script nineteen forty one,
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which was a huge flop at the time. You know, it was
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just like a big you know, it was like Spielberg's first movie that he'd
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made that hadn't worked. So when Zemeckis got interested in my script, it
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was like the tail end of his that first wave of what he you know,
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had going in the business. So it wasn't the greatest of times for
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him, but you know, he loved my script and he wanted to do
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it, and he you know, we took it to all these places and
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nothing happened with it. So I, you know, I was kind of
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charged by that. You know, I felt like, wow, you know,
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it was like more than it ever happened to me. And I was
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exciting and it was it was a fun thing. And I, you know,
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we were still I was still kicking that script around and trying to do
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things with it and working on another script. And then about six months later,
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the phone rang and it was Meckis and he said, I, ay,
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time, I have this project at Fox and they I need a writer
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to develop it with me. Would you be interested? And yeah, yeah,
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of course I was interested. So that was Cocoon. It was this
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unpublished novel and there was the producers with these Megat producers Richards, Richard Zaneck
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and David Brown. You know, they'd done Jaws and Staying and all these
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things. They had this big deal at Fox. So he had that deal
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with developing that project with him, and they're a writer had done an adaptation.
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It was an unpublished novel and the Sky had done an adaptation of it
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and it wasn't it wasn't really no one was very happy with it. And
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so they gave me the material and said, well, you know what,
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what can you do something with it? So I, you know, figured
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out a pitch and I had to go in and you know, I pitched
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it to Bob, tried to figure out something that like would sort of work
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with his sensibility in terms of what the material was. And I kind of
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reinvented what they had before and reinvented the novel and novel the novel in a
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lot of ways, and used the story and just change a lot of elements,
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characters and things to it and kept some you know, the basic sci
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fi story that was there. I stuck with that, and you know,
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it's about the you know, the story is exactly what the movie is,
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but you know, many adjustments later, I think. And so, yeah,
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I pitched that at to Zanick and Brown and Lily Zannick, Richard Zack's
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wife, and yeah, they they bought, you know, they they hired
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me to write that script. And so that was my first that and that
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you know, I meanazingly, there was all this drama. You know,
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the studio Zemeckis then went off to do Romancing the Stone and they ended up
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having a lot of problems with the studio with Romancing the Stone. In our
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movie, kakoon I wrote the script and it got greenlit. You know,
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it's like they wanted to make that movie with Zemeckis, but then he was
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off making this other movie for Fox and they were having all this he was
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really tangling with some people, with Michael Douglas and other people the studio about
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that project in some ways. So it ended up they ended up not wanting
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him to direct Kakoon. So we had this movie that was greenlit and we
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didn't have a director. And then some I then suggested Ron Howard because of
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Splash, and miraculously, Ron Howard had read the script before and we'll be
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right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show and
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was interested in the project, and you know, the producers convinced him to
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do it, and so you know, that's and that was my you know,
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my big way if that was my way in that was my first riders
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skilled job, and that was my you know, first movie that got made.
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And so so way after that time, did did you get a lot
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of like people wanting to work with you and like a lot of directors wanted
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wanting to sit down with you to talk about their projects. Yeah, I
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mean that was like, yeah, it was pretty you know, it's like
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such yeah, I was. I mean, you know, because well once
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the movie got going, I started getting you know, some work started coming
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my way. You know with other other producers wanted to work with me because
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the movie was you know, in development. I was sort of like you
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know, in the game a little bit, so to speak. And then
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when the movie came out and it turned out to be a hit, and
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you know, and it was it was it was well liked by people in
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the in the by the people in the business. It was just you know,
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people really really really were very kind about the movie, and so yeah,
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I just started getting you know, and the business was so different than
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the studio system. You know, the student like Cahoon would not get made.
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Now. I mean, it might get made somehow. Someone would struggle
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and fight and get a made. But you know, it was like a
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twenty million dollars at that time, a twenty million dollar movie, which is
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a very low budget studio movie, about as low as you could do at
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a studio at that time, I think, and with no stars. You
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know, Steve Gutenberg wasn't really you know, he was a star, but
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he wasn't you know, like a movie He wasn't a you know, he
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wasn't a guy who was known to just you know, put to get movies.
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Any movie couldn't put you put together with him and at that time.
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So yeah, so that was you know then you know, the people just
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started throwing me every kind of job you can imagine. You know, it
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was just like, yeah, things changed, so I got I just got
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a lot of work after that. Definitely definitely a lot of you know,
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things going on that way. And you touched on something to Tom that I
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that I wanted to talk about, which was you mentioned you know that movie
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wouldn't get made today, and you know, I think you're right because I
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you know, everything now is either like a low budget you know, one
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to five million dollar movie or it's a huge superhero movie, and you know
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that that's something now where I wonder, you know, where where is that
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middle ground that that used to be? You know what I mean? And
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so you know where I wanted to ask you is is excuse me I wanted
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to ask you is is you know, what would you do if you were
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a screenwriter starting off right now? You know, what would you do you
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know, to sort of you know, get your foot in the door again,
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knowing the marketplaces where it is right now? I would just write.
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I would write a great script and whatever whatever you are interested that writer's feels
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they have in their heart that they can embrace and really feel committed to emotionally
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and and spiritually and physically and just like you know, on every level.
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And just write a great script. And if you write a great script,
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then you have a writing sample. And you know, in terms of the
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practicalities of what can get made, yeah, you know, it's it's better
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to write something that's can be made for a price. And even if the
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marketplace doesn't allow for that kind of thing as much. If you want to
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be in the feature game, you have to write a feature film. And
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you know so, and it may be that writing and enclo a something doing
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you know, mixing it up, writing something, writing something that's you know,
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an enclosed thriller or something that's extremely low budget that you know can be
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really made cheaply, and yet is a genre film. I think that's something
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that the studios are interested in. It's you know, I think that if
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you if you embrace a genre, you you if you want to work for
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the studios, if you want to work in that context, you kind of
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have to look at the movies that they're making and embrace that kind of movie
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and do something which demonstrates that you are can do that better than anybody else
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that they're going to have, So you know that they're my agent, as
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all these writers working for Marvel, you know, I mean, so you
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know, so there there are these there are people who are specialists in that
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and that's that's that they've dedicated themselves to that. They love that and that's
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what they do and that's the kind of work that they're getting. And they
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may have come at it from somewhere else. They may have written something that
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was a more specific sci fi or very you know, heightened kind of action
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film that got them there, but something that really corresponds to what that realm
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is and the kind of kind of scenes and the kind of character development kind
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of stories that are in that genre, and you know they are like there
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are other kinds of genres that you know, there's the horror genre, and
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you know, there's there's a few you know, there's action thrillers that you
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know, one character action thrillers, which is probably you know, the most
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you know, a simpler version of you know, a less expensive kind of
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movie that the studios can make where they can make it with one star and
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if it's you know, if it's a compelling story, original it can be
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you know, I think it's going to be the next Taken or something like
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that. So that's that's the way in. And it's much more limited,
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you know, I mean the when I you know, there used to be
15:24
development executives. There used to be a point of pride that a development executive
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would have two projects that were that they loved but were very difficult to get
15:33
off the ground or sort of impossible, but they loved them, so they
15:37
had you know that those people aren't that's not something that is part of the
15:43
part of the mix right now. And the people who are left as the
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development executives are you know there it's business. You know, it's just very
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you know, it's paired down to the being specific to what the necessities of
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international distribution are and that's you know, that's the studios. And then there's
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television. You know, I think that television is kind of that picked up
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the slack and all these people are moving into television and the television is just
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taking a lot of different forms and six episode series or ten episodes here you
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know, cable shows or ten episodes and for a season and that's it.
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And then there are you know, Netflix does these small films. Now,
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there's Telulu. Telula just came out on Netflix. There's a good little film
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with with Ellen Page and Alison Janny which is like Juno It's but it's straight
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up there on on Netflix. And bos Loreman's doing the get Down on on
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Netflix. Really interesting show. So television is really and what we're saying about
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in television, there's you know, limited series are are significant, and series
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that have few episodes are significant. So something that could be a feature film
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could also be put into one of those contexts. But you know, and
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also making making your own film, making an independent film. We're just trying
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to do something that's really small that goes to the independent market and there's not
17:10
a lot of money in that. But if your heart is isn't an idea
17:15
in a project, you kind of have to You kind of have to do
17:18
it and try and find a way, and people find a way, things
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rise up. You know, everybody's hoping that this year that at the festivals
17:26
and wherever, that some great stuff is going to rise up. So if
17:30
people keep making movies and keep writing scripts and then good things will happen.
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Yeah, you know, you made another good point. Tom which is about
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TV. You know, that's where a lot of good writers now that even
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you know that I even know personally, are all aiming for TV now rather
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than feature films. And I think part of the reason is is because of
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the budget issue, where you know, you want to make a feature film,
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you know, and they'll look at it and they go, well,
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you know, maybe this would be better as episodic because that's you know,
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everyone has been you know, conditioned to to binge watch it or you know
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what I mean. And they're and we're in the golden age of TV.
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There's so many good TV shows on, you know, out there, and
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you know, I think, you know, even some of the producers and
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maybe would have made those movies, those feature films even a few years ago,
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have maybe too much on their plate or they just aren't making those types
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of movies anymore. Yeah, I think you have a lot. I mean,
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they're not there. It's hard for the producers. The producers are reluctant
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to develop a lot of things because it's really hard to set them up.
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It's just they don't, you know, the studios aren't giving the producers budgets
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for development, and they're just not buying. It's not a it's a it's
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it's there. They only buy they buy scripts when they're going to go into
18:45
production a lot of the time now apparently, So yeah, it's TV is
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really picking up the slack and uh, you know, and I think that
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it's it's this breakdown which is occurring and the but I think that, you
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know things, eventually, the theatrical theatrical film is not going to go away.
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It's that form is important and people don't just want to watch series.
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People don't always want to just get hooked into something that's going to take them
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ten hours to watch. They want to sit down with a group of people
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or buy themselves and watch something that's two hours. And that's that form is
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primal to film entertainment. So it's not going anywhere. It's just right now
19:26
we're in kind of a it's in kind of a down swing in terms of
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the certain sectors of the kinds of films that are getting made, and it's
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it's probably gonna it's probably gonna change, and it may not be that the
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movie theaters are going to be as important as they were, but I think
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that there's still there's always going to be room for a good movie, for
19:47
a good script and a good movie. We'll be right back after a word
19:52
from our sponsor, and now back to the show. It's just but I
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think that in practical terms, having a TV script is something where people feel
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like they can do something with it. There's there's all these channels, there's
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all these outlets that are all looking for stuff, so you know, and
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there you know, if you take the difference between the way that Warner Brothers
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is trying to find material for movies Warner Brothers films, versus the way that
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AMC AMC channel is looking for projects, I would guess that AMC is is
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a lot more you know, fun place to go to if you really want
20:38
to sell something these days. Yeah, you know, because AMC, you
20:44
know, with The Walking Dead and they also Breaking Bad and uh you know,
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and you know, I like you said that a lot of people are
20:51
taking more chances because you know, I heard a rumor that Voodoo, which
20:55
is owned by Walmart, is going to start making their own original content.
21:00
Goes everyone wants to get into that game of creating their own original you know,
21:03
movies and TV shows. Yeah, I mean, someone this idea of
21:07
the content bubble is uh. You know they said two years ago somebody said
21:12
that there was a content bubble and it was going to go all you know,
21:15
there are too many shows and all this, Well the bubble hasn't gone
21:19
away, and you know, I was the truth is that a show that
21:26
a cable show that is doing really well the number of people who are actually
21:32
watching it, it would be canceled. It would have been canceled fifteen years
21:37
ago if it were in a network show. So it doesn't have to do
21:40
that much business. It's like this. It's kind of this large scale version
21:45
of the long tail where people, you know, where there are so many
21:48
niches now and if you if you fit into a niche and you write something
21:53
of quality to create a show of quality that really that people who are in
21:57
passionate about that and beyond you know, respond to, then you know it's
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it's gonna it's gonna work. So you have all these channels and they're all
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they're all looking for stuff. They're all looking for ways to survive or make
22:11
themselves more prominent than they are. And so you know, you so there
22:15
are all these channels you never heard of, are all sort of have one
22:18
eye on doing some you know, some kind of TV series or some kind
22:22
of filmed entertainment show that's not just what their standard mix might be. So
22:27
yeah, so there's you know, there's a lot going on. There's also
22:30
you know, things that are just on the web, just web series,
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and you know, there are these verticals which are groups groupings together, group
22:38
grouped together, web shows that are you know, just a bunch of web
22:45
channels that are that are that are part of one organization. And there's just
22:49
gonna be more that's just starting. And now it's you know, people you
22:53
know treat it like, oh, you know, some people love YouTube and
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some people feel like they don't relate to it and they feel like it not
23:00
for them, and then they generalize that that realm is never going to be
23:03
something that they would ever want to work in. Well, it's gonna evolve,
23:07
I mean, all these things are going to evolve. Maybe it won't
23:11
be YouTube specific. Maybe YouTube will stay that the realm of what is now,
23:15
which is you know, I enjoy some of the things that are on
23:18
there, but it may be that it will really you know, there'll be
23:22
more diversification, there'll be more different kinds of shows even within YouTube. So
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there's plenty of there's a lot of opportunity, and there's a lot of a
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lot of ways to go, and you can know, having a good script
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is a beginning and then being industrious about figuring out where it can fit in.
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You know, we just were talking about web series too, because uh,
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you know, I took that class with you about creating a web series,
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and you know that is something too. You know, I've noticed was
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that there's more web series competitions springing up more and more, uh, you
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know, and they're very open because there's no you know, set page count,
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you know what I mean, Like so some kid, you know,
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they're like, hey, if you're if you're entry is five pages or whether
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it's twenty five pages, as long as you're you know, you have this
24:11
concept for for you know, the channel or for the project in general.
24:15
You know you will will accept these entries. Yeah, I mean, yeah,
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you can. It can be whatever you want it to be. I
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mean, someone can define if if something's really compelling and it's thirty minutes,
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it's people are gonna watch it. I mean, it's just a matter of
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a matter of doing something that's of quality and doing something that really you know,
24:32
that that really is you know, outstanding for people and satisfies and you
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know it is resonant, and I think you know, you can bring the
24:40
same skill sets of and the same same emotional tools that you bring put in
24:45
a screenplay to these short forms, and you can also use the short form
24:52
to boost a you know, boost a script or a movie. There's a
24:56
lot more of people putting together real to try and sell projects. You know,
25:02
they sort of like to really investing in whatever their ideas and having a
25:07
way to present it that really injects it into people's heads in a creative way.
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So it may not just be reading the script. It's you know,
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there's there's more to it, and that's you know, I mean, as
25:18
a writer, I would prefer if it was just this level playing field,
25:22
it was this orderly situation where people were reading the scripts and then you know,
25:27
making rational decisions about them after having you know, a good experience reading
25:33
the script. But there's it's gotten. The people are doing more and more
25:37
to try and and and enhance the possibilities of something and get people's attention to
25:45
to the material that they have. Yeah, what one common tactor that I've
25:49
seen is to make something into like a transmedia projects you know, where it's
25:55
you know, a web series and uh, or it starts off as a
25:59
novel and then you make the movie, or then you write the script and
26:02
say, hey, it's based off the novel by the same writer. You
26:04
know, I've seen people, you know more people trying to package things.
26:07
You know, like we were talking about setting setting up projects, and you
26:11
know what they would try to do is also get Facebook page, a fan
26:14
page or sorry, facebook fans for their page, you know, Twitter followers,
26:18
and that way, when you're pitching to people, they can say,
26:19
hey, look we already have you know, ten thousand people on the on
26:22
this on this fan page. Yeah, and that you know, that speaks
26:26
the idea that you can so much, that you can do yourself, and
26:30
that you can't you know that that whole the other going back to the feature
26:36
realm, you know, there's this you know, people who are doing a
26:38
kickstarter, you know, you you can get a movie done that way.
26:44
You can, you know, if you have a script and if you you
26:45
know you have to. It's there's a whole there's an art and a science
26:49
to doing kickstarter or see in the spark and that's a way to build the
26:55
following for your your script and kind of figure out, well, is there,
27:00
you know, find the audience for it. And then if you do,
27:03
if you do a Kickstarter and you start a Facebook page and you do
27:06
all these things and people and you're able to communicate what your film is and
27:15
get people and people resonate with it, then that's you know, that's the
27:19
kind of a test of you know, if you do that, then your
27:22
your project. It bodes well for your projects, so you know, so
27:26
it's a good thing to do. But again that's it's really like it's just
27:30
not just not just having the script, but then doing all these other things.
27:34
And sometimes rather than going around and trying to get sort of go around
27:38
to the agents and managers and producers and try and get permission to do something
27:44
which you know, or get them to approve what you've done so that they
27:48
can then go out and market it, if you really just go into the
27:52
trenches with it and just you know, try and try and figure out a
27:55
way to get it done yourself or that that may be more productive ultimately.
28:00
So yeah, very very true. Tom. You know, Tom, I
28:04
wanted to you know, ask because you know, we need tower a conversation
28:07
about you know, making projects. You know, what sort of advice you
28:11
know, would you give to somebody who was, uh who you know who
28:14
was thinking about writing a screenplay? Uh for for you know, I usually
28:18
say beginners, but if you don't mind, Tom, what would you say
28:21
to somebody who maybe even is beyond the beginner and maybe like intermediate to advance?
28:26
You know, what would you give, you know, any advice to
28:27
them about about you know, sort of right for writing for their next screenplay,
28:32
whether it be about structure, whether it be about concept. Is there
28:36
any anything you know that you could comment about? I would say, no,
28:41
great character, driving plot, great characters, and uh really having a
28:48
you know, making sure that your movie is really about something and you know,
28:55
working working to the heart of what it is and uh you know that's
29:00
probably you know, just just just giving it, giving your project and I've
29:04
been saying this, giving your project love, you know, giving it all
29:07
the loves you can and really you know, make it great and uh,
29:11
you know, and be able to enunciate what it is, really say,
29:17
say what it is and not to oversimplify it, but to really sort of
29:22
have and I you know, be able to be clear. You know,
29:25
you might not know it when you start out what it was really about,
29:29
but by the or you or you might not know what sort of the mirror,
29:33
you know, what the important things that your characters go through that they
29:36
really discover about themselves or what they you know, what they finally conquer or
29:40
just like you know what that could mean to people who would be hearing about
29:44
the project. So they hear about you know, they might hear about a
29:48
high concept, some sort of hook of what the plot is where it takes
29:52
place, which sounds really Oh, that's interesting. I haven't heard that,
29:55
you know, that's I haven't that sounds I'd like to see that. Well,
30:00
right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the
30:06
show. But then if the closer is and this person, this guy or
30:12
this woman, they what they would happened to them, the main characters experience
30:18
in their own life in their own terms of what happens to them through through
30:22
the story, which is going to translate to you know, it's going to
30:26
be the people who hear the story, watch the film and read the script,
30:32
they're gonna they're gonna grow from whatever that growth is that takes place in
30:37
the character, and you know, sometimes that's not it. Sometimes characters don't
30:41
change, they don't grow, and it's not every movie and not to be
30:45
formulated it has to be that way. But I think that even if that's
30:48
not the case, the character will have there's a certain kind of heart story
30:52
that will take place at the center of most films, which is what people
30:56
remember. That's what people that's why people remember movies is because of that story
31:03
within the story. And you know, I'm I'm always chasing it down with
31:06
my own stuff, and uh, you know, sometimes I don't know.
31:10
Sometimes I start with the story that's very external and you have to start somewhere,
31:14
and you not, you may not know what it's really about until you've
31:18
written it and you can outline and outline and outline. But I think in
31:22
the in writing is where if you really let yourself you go when you're writing,
31:29
if you really, you know, take the ride with it, you'll
31:32
discover what you'll learn, what you're you're you know, it's it's in you
31:36
and you're sort of the instrument that's gonna get it out. But it's gonna
31:41
you want it to have a life of its own on the page, you
31:45
know, and even talking with Scott you know, you know, Scott Meyers,
31:48
the other half of scre Writing masterclass. For those listening, uh,
31:52
you know, we were talking about character and how character is everything because characters
31:56
suggest plot. You know, everything comes from character, you know, and
32:00
and those moments, moments where they change in the film, that all comes
32:04
from you know, their character and either wanting or needing to change. And
32:08
you know, this whole idea where you can you know, sort of take
32:13
out you know, an outline, formula outline and just plug whatever in there.
32:16
I think it's a downfall to a lot of screenwriters because I've seen them,
32:21
you know, try to say, oh man, you know, on
32:22
page seventeen, I gotta have this, and on page thirty, I gotta
32:24
have this, and and you know, you just go, you know,
32:28
you wonder why why movies become formulaic? What's because of stuff like that?
32:31
Yeah, I think that's true. And I think that, you know,
32:34
I mean, the you know, the formulas or the dramatic structure wasn't it
32:42
wasn't invented before the story. The first stories were told. The stories were
32:47
told naturally. People just told stories. And then after a while people sat
32:52
down, well, why is everybody listening to him or her, you know,
32:57
And then they realized, oh, well, you know this is where
33:00
you know, they they set it up here and they you know, they
33:04
worked it and then they there was this point where everything went went downhill completely
33:09
to the bottom. The main character, they all bottomed out, and then
33:13
there was this lift you know, at the end. So yeah, they
33:15
figured they maybe they saw that in what those but the stories came first,
33:20
and so there was no theory. So and the theory is a way to
33:24
sort of you know, sometimes you may write just okay, I know I'm
33:29
going to need these things, and it's a way to start writing. It's
33:31
a way to get going. But you want to just let the story.
33:35
You want to just kind of find the story in its rost form, and
33:38
then it may be misshapen in some way, or it may be missing some
33:44
elements, like you know, and then you can go to the formula or
33:47
go to those models of how scripts are structured, and you know, the
33:52
idea the lessons about dramatic structure and just sort of measure what you have against
34:00
those ideas about structure, and it might say, wow, you know,
34:02
I never really I didn't really explore my characters enough before the point, you
34:10
know, before the the you know, when everything got really bad and all
34:15
is lost moments, so to speak. You know, so you can use
34:16
it to kind of diagnose, but you may not want to necessarily start.
34:22
You may want to write instinctively at first and then see how it fits into
34:25
those structural models as kind of a remedy. It's like in acting, you
34:30
know, the method method acting, you know, is this wave of this
34:35
wave sort of imagining. I'll oversimplify it, but it's if a character,
34:39
if an actor has a part that they're doing, they may dig deep in
34:44
their own experience to find moments that will make them feel the moments in their
34:52
real life that made them feel in a similar way to the characters way the
34:57
character might be feeling because of what's going on in the story. So they'll
35:01
plug that in and they'll realize, Okay, at that point, I'm going
35:05
to think about when my you know, when when I saw the elephant get
35:08
euthanized or whatever it is. Now, so that'll make me cry. So
35:13
they'll and maybe in the movie they're watching you know something completely, you know,
35:17
they're observing a soldier dying in a bed or something you know, whatever
35:22
it is, but they use that emotional moment from their real life to sort
35:28
of make themselves feel and appears or the way that they're supposed to fear appear.
35:32
And that's method acting, but some actors may need to do that every
35:37
second of how complicated would that be? Every moment you're trying to scotch tape
35:42
together something had happened from when your life. I think most of the time
35:45
most actors, even method actors, are just imagining it. They're just they
35:51
jump into the character and they imagine it, and then they reach a bump
35:54
in the road at a certain point where you know, they're facing that soldier
35:58
dying in the bed, and they just they're just not feeling it, or
36:00
they just don't feel like they really have a clear understanding of what it would
36:06
really they can't bring They're just looking for more from what they want to be
36:10
from their performance. So in that piece of the of their performance, they
36:15
may use that idea from that that experience from their real life and bring it
36:22
in and then just use that there so that and then on film people you
36:27
know, it will work really well because there they seem to be the emotion
36:31
is really you know, appropriate for what they're they would for for what's going
36:36
on at that point. That could be a great performance, but that's that's
36:40
a technique, and that may not be a technique that is used every second
36:46
of of you know. It's just like you don't do that all the time.
36:51
An actor doesn't do that all the time, just the same way a
36:52
writer may not use the form you know, the formulas all the time as
36:59
they write. I may just write, and when they hit that bump in
37:00
the road or they just want something more, they feel like there's something missing,
37:04
then they'll go to the technique. Then they'll go to the formulas and
37:07
use it as a as a helper, you know. And it's also something
37:13
two times, you know, as we talk, you know about about writing
37:15
and you know, and we're talking about outlining, because you know, when
37:19
I when I've outlined and then I started actually write it, I've had a
37:22
lot of aha moments as I'm actually writing, you know, I'm sort of
37:24
like, oh, okay, you know, maybe this could happen, you
37:28
know what I mean, you start getting these ideas that you sort of maybe
37:30
can't see with the outline because you're the outline really ends up becoming like a
37:35
lot of broad strokes, if you know what I mean. And that's what
37:38
I've learned too, is you know, as we're making this outline to really
37:42
get in there, and it's you're able to sort of now say, okay,
37:45
now this scene has to come out of this scene, and now we
37:47
can do this and you know within this scene, this is how this reversal
37:52
happens in this scene, because you know, it started off with guy A
37:54
has all the power, and then it ends with guy BE having all the
37:58
power, you know, stuff like that. Yeah, I think I completely
38:02
agree. I think that, you know, I feel sometimes I feel like
38:06
I outline too much and then I'd be better off just writing pages. And
38:12
then I sort of want to be I want to be writing pages, just
38:14
to let myself be writing pages. And then there's this fear that, oh
38:17
no, if I write, If I write pages, you know, it's
38:20
just I'm going to write myself into a hole with a stuff that doesn't make
38:23
sense. And I you know, but I think that there is a point
38:29
where you really want to, you know, you want to write, and
38:30
I think in some ways you can. I also like to and I advise
38:35
get start writing, go forward. See what, see what's going to happen,
38:38
and then go back to your outline. Play with your outline based on
38:42
what you write. You know, restructure based on the inspiration that comes from
38:45
the writing, because it will change, it should change. You know,
38:50
if you're writing for you know, if you have a deadline and you have
38:53
a producer you know, a company or something and they're they've approved an outline,
38:58
well that's different. You know, you can you can diverge a little
39:01
bit, but you may have to stick with it. But you know,
39:05
if you're just writing your own scripture, just like, no, bring yourself
39:08
up. No, yeah, I know exactly what you mean. And you
39:14
know because I actually, you know, I started off writing feature films and
39:19
now I actually just wrote two TV pilots, one half hour one drama,
39:22
and now you know, I sort of I see you know, talking with
39:25
like Jennifer gersani as she was on the podcast few episodes ago, you know,
39:29
where we're talking about creating that bible, uh, you know, and
39:32
just creating a pitch and to making sure that all this stuff is set so
39:36
that you know, they know that you have a vision of where this is
39:37
gonna go, and you know, the whole thing sort of it sort of
39:42
folds back and you have the vision of where it's gonna go and the series
39:45
arc, what's gonna happen in season one? We'll be right back after a
39:51
word from our sponsor, and now back to the show, which you know,
40:00
which is the season one arc, and then you have the entire you
40:01
know, episodic arc about that season, you know what I mean. So
40:05
it's you know, putting all this stuff together and you realize, you know,
40:07
making a TV pilot is actually really really difficult, and I and I
40:12
and I actually might venture off Tom and saying, you know, pound for
40:15
pound, it might be the most difficult of doing all this stuff, you
40:17
know, whether we're talking about writing web series or feature films or TV.
40:21
You know, I think TV writing it writing a TV pilot because you have
40:24
to get everything in motion and you have to you know, make sure that
40:28
you know, it's it's, it's, it's, it's it's intriguing and all
40:30
that stuff, and you have to do introduce all these characters within you know,
40:35
thirty and you know, one hour, you know what I mean.
40:37
Yeah, I agree, it's really hard, and you know, I think
40:39
the idea of having to present this they want more, you know, they
40:45
want an episode, and you know, the pilot and then outlines for a
40:49
couple of episodes and then the whole you know, a season some you know,
40:52
a season Bible of some sort, or just you know, descriptions of
40:55
many many things. It's really it's like you're pre writing a novel. It's
41:00
it's pretty. It's tough, you know, and and you can get away.
41:04
I think you can get away with less if you have a really strong
41:06
pilot. But you do have to give him a lot of I was being
41:10
with a writer, you know, was done a lot of a lot of
41:14
stuff, and he was he was saying that that they that it's that most
41:21
of the speculation of the season of the Bible is just like bs that most
41:28
of the time it's not going to end up that way. You know that
41:31
you can't really know, you can't really pre determine the season from just writing
41:37
the pilot. And maybe some people can. I don't know, I don't
41:39
know if that's okay. But there are buyers who are buying the entire you
41:45
know that they're just buying the entire season, so that that's really what you're
41:49
you know, you're going in and they you want to sell them, you
41:52
know, the production of the entire season of the show, so you better
41:59
have something A yeah, and you're right. It is like setting up a
42:04
novel. It's you know, because you have to make sure they they they
42:07
know, they have to make sure that you know where this is going,
42:09
you know, it's not just sort of like the pilot. And then you're
42:12
like, well, I gotta kind of figure out where everything goes from here,
42:15
you know. And speaking of very for TV, you actually have an
42:16
upcoming uh TV writing class? Correct, Tom, I do I have one.
42:21
It starts it's this week. Are you when is this airing? I
42:24
have? I have. I have a one week class this week, and
42:28
then in September I have a pilot workshop that's going to be going on.
42:32
So this will will be airing about two weeks, so maybe the beginning of
42:37
September. Yeah, let me tell you here. I'll let me get the
42:42
dates here for you. I can figure that out here. One second.
43:00
Two weeks okay, September fifth, right after Labor Day, I have a
43:04
Pages one writing the first draft. That's a feature class. And then that
43:08
September twelfth, I have pages two it's a rewrite class. For features,
43:15
and we also do TV pilots in there as well, so it's you know
43:17
that one both both can be in there. And then on the twenty sixth
43:22
of September, I have a Pages TV Original TV Pilotscript Workshop, So that's
43:27
a ten week pilot workshop where we you know, we work out a whole
43:30
series concept and pilotscript in that class. So I have those things up coming
43:36
at Screenwriting Masterclass on the line. Very cool, Tom, you know,
43:42
so you know, and I'll make sure to link to those in the show
43:44
notes everyone and you in closing, Tom, because I know we're just about
43:47
at a time. Is there anything that we didn't discuss or anything you sort
43:51
of want to say to put a period at the end of this conversation.
43:53
Uh, well, it was. It was great speaking with you, and
43:58
uh yeah. I just think I encourage people to, uh to to write,
44:02
to tell their stories, and just know, I think that the product
44:06
the writing itself, and you know, create doing doing creative writing and uh
44:10
you know, concentrating in a in a form like screen screenwriting or pilot writing.
44:15
I think that it's its own reward. And simultaneously, there's a there's
44:21
a great world out there and Uh, as much as we're you know,
44:25
we're there, we still have one foot in the way things were in feature
44:30
films and we were we've actually moved forward into some this new realm and film
44:37
entertainment and it's really and it's it's an incredible because of the changes the technology
44:43
and the changes in lifestyle have been going on. It's an incredible time for
44:47
film entertainment and it's an incredible visual. Visual elements are so important, and
44:54
film video and filmed elements on the on the web in always are so important.
44:59
So imagining out these stories in script form, it's just a great thing
45:04
to do, and it's important to have fun with it and to you know,
45:08
love find out what the shows are and the and the movies are that
45:13
you really love, and keep watching and keep reading and you know, that's
45:19
that's about all. That's that's that's it. No very cool Tom. And
45:23
where people find you out online? Uh, screenwriting masterclass dot com. If
45:28
anybody has any questions, I'm Tom. You know him at screenwriting masterclass dot
45:32
com. And I also have a podcast which I started very recently at which
45:38
we have the first three episodes are up. It's called The Process dot I
45:43
n k and we're on iTunes and we're talking about the just like writing,
45:49
we're talking about the creative process. And I've had some amazing you know I
45:53
had Today I spoke with Billy Finkelstein, who's you know, he's he's a
45:59
he's on the writing staff of the spin off to the Good Wife. And
46:04
he did the feature he did he wrote the this uh bad Lieutenant, Bad
46:10
Lieutenant city of City of New Orleans that Werner Herzog directed with with Nicholas Cage,
46:17
which is a very good film. He just he did that, So
46:21
we're talking about that. And he worked on La Law, and he worked
46:23
on Cop Rock and he's a good friend of David Milch and the real interesting
46:29
guys working on all these different shows, working on Law and Order and now
46:31
he's on this show at CBS. So talked about you know, running shows
46:36
and creating shows, and I've had I've had. I'm gonna be talking with
46:42
beck Smith, who's an indie h specialist at you know, a talent agency
46:46
next week and I'm going to speaking to someone who works at Upright Citizens Brigade
46:52
and stand Up Comic and I'm going to be and I've had other interesting so
47:00
the process dot im K please check it out and any requests for kinds of
47:06
guests. I'm open to feedback about what I'm doing on the show excellent.
47:12
I will also link to that in the show notes. Everyone. You can
47:15
always find me at Dave Bullis dot com and Twitter. It's at Dave Underscore
47:17
Bullets. Tom. I want to say thank you very much coming on the
47:22
show, sir, Thank you very much. This is a pleasure, and
47:23
I hope we'll we'll talk soon and I'll see in the Warner Herzog class.
47:29
Yeah, right exactly where I will. Yeah, it's it's a small world.
47:32
But yeah, I know, Tom, I I know we'll our Parsil
47:36
cross again very soon. Okay, thank you, Thank you, Dave.
47:38
Take care of Tom herebye. I want to thank Dave so much for doing
47:43
such a great job on this episode. If you want to get links to
47:45
anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at
47:49
Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward Slash three twenty four. Thank you so much
47:52
for listening to guys. As always, keep on writing no matter what.
47:57
We'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the full aproof screenwriting podcasts
48:01
at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv m