Latest / Andy Stanley Sermons / Andy Stanley - Evolving Your Leadership Competencies with David Roberts President and CEO of Verra Mobility

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Andy Stanley - Evolving Your Leadership Competencies with David Roberts President and CEO of Verra Mobility · Andy Stanley Sermons

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Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, a conversation designed
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to help leaders go further faster. I'm Andy Stanley, and before we jump
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d Y too five to five one two three. That's Andy A and d
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Y too five to five one two three. You'll be glad you did.
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And now let's jump into today's content. So you are in for a real
1:37
treat today on this podcast episode because joining me is my friend David Roberts.
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David is the president and CEO of Vera Mobility, with a market cap of
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over three billion dollars. Vera Mobility is a global leader in smart transportation that
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focuses on smart cities, smart roadways, and the connected systems that tie them
1:56
seamlessly together that either are or will make all of our lives much easier now.
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Before joining Vera in twenty fourteen, David held several senior leadership roles with
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technology and finance companies. He was the president and CEO of Billingtree, a
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multi channel electronic payment platform company that some of us are familiar with. He
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was also a managing director at Bank of America Merrill Lynch, leading the equity
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plan services business. He writes for Forbes as a member of the Forbes Technology
2:22
Council, where his articles include topics like the one we're actually going to discuss
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today, and on a personal level, My producer Susie Gray, and I
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have known David since he was in high school. So who would have guessed,
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right, Welcome to the podcast. It is great to be here,
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Andy, Thank you. Yes, it's always a little bit intimidating when someone
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I knew in the ninth grade grows up and does amazing, amazing things.
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It's like the first time I got on a Delta Airlines jet and somebody I
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grew up with was flying it, and I'm like, oh, no,
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I know that guy. I know that guy. He should not be flying
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a jet with paying passengers right anyway, So recently you published an article entitled
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Lessons Learned from Selfless Leadership, and in this particular article you talk about why
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it's important for leaders not only to cultivate some sort of personal leadership philosophy,
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but then learn how to grow and evolve it. And this is super interesting
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to us because we talk about leadership all the time, and most leaders have
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some sort of leadership philosophy that have either borrowed from somebody or they've inherited it
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from a company or from a former boss or leadership environment they were in.
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And so we all kind of have an approach. I mean, there's servant
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leadership, there's lead gray, there are others. But the challenge that we're
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going to talk about, and where this article is so helpful, is you
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talk about, Okay, so you have a leadership philosophy, but how do
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you stay in it? How do you grow it? And how do you
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continue to expand it and evolve your leadership within whatever framework you've chosen. So
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this isn't this isn't hey, here's a leadership philosophy to embrace or even a
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you need to find one. This is assuming you've been leading for a while
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and you've sort of got a target. Here's some things to do to ensure
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that you continue to grow in it and don't stay in the rest. So
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this is a very i think unique approach to leadership. And so you talk
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about you talk about four components. The first one is look to your past
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to establish principles. Number two, borrow from your mentors. Number three,
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move beyond your comfort zone. And number four increase clarity. So let's walk
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through these four and let's just go ahead and jump in to look to your
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past to establish principles. What do you mean by that? Yeah, you
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know, Andy, there's this old management principle which is you soar with your
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strengths and your staff to your weaknesses. And what I've noticed in my own
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career and even leaders around me, that as you progress and you put some
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points on the board and you get some results for your organization, you're going
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to end up getting more and more opportunity. You're going to get more people
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to report to you, you're going to get the corner office, you're going
4:55
to get the bigger paycheck. And what happens, unfortunately, is that we
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sort of get what brought us there, which is ultimately you probably started with
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two people and a cold pizza around a conference room table and you were trying
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to get some results together, and you were really involved. You were on
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the court, you were listening, you were solving problems. And I think
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what happens is is you get removed from that, you kind of lose touch
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with those people, and ultimately, no leader is the result of just their
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own action. It is the actions that they generate through people. And I
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even think when I look at my own leadership, the best leading that I've
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ever done is when I'm really involved in thinking of others first. And then
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the times that I mess up are the times that I put my own agenda
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ahead of other people. And so for me to make sure that I stay
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in that zone, I came up with these concepts or principles that I called
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unself yourself, which is I needed some basic tools to make servant leadership a
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part of my daily practice. And I realized just aspiring to that ideology wasn't
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enough. I needed to put something in practice. Yeah, and that's why
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this article and these four things are so helpful because again, you know,
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we write those things on the wall, and even when I was looking at
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your content, I thought, so many leaders probably who listen to our podcast
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not only have some sort of leadership philosophy, we actually teach it. But
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committing to it and teaching it still doesn't get you there if there aren't some
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specific components or steps that we keep in front of us. Otherwise we drift
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back to our you know, same old ways, just do the same old
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things. So this is why this is, this is so incredibly important.
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So before we leave this particular and talk a little bit more about unselfing ourselves,
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Yeah, that was That was a concept that I came up with because
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what I have found Andy, I'm sure this isn't true for you, but
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I'm I'm very easily selfish. It's it may be my best thing. Yeah,
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I can very quickly turn things about me and I don't even know that
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I'm doing it, And just trying to not be selfish is something we wish
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we could do, but the reality is we can slip into old behaviors that
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turn us into the leader that we wish we weren't being, and certainly not
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the behavior that the organization would ask of you. So unselfing yourself is just
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that. It's just a set of daily practices or disciplines that I've implemented in
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my own personal career and certainly have observed us in the careers of other leaders
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that allow me to check myself, as it were, to make sure that
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I'm leading the way that I want, which is, Hey, I want
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to be a servant leader, and I think I'm sure the listeners of this
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podcast want to have that as part of their legacy. I just needed some
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practical tools to make it happen. Yes, to talk about because this certainly
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brought back memories. I thought you were too young to even know what this
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was. The Hoosier rule from the old movie. I mean, I don't
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even ask how old you were when you saw that movie. But that old
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Gene Hackman movie, it's a classic. It's amazing, and you've taken sort
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of a single principle from that film and made it kind of a life mantra.
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Talk about that. I thought that was interesting. Yeah, it's such
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a great movie for those that haven't seen it. Gene Hackman takes over a
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small basketball team in rural Indiana, and one of the first changes he makes
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is, hey, we got to stop shooting the ball. We got to
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pass the ball five times before someone takes a shot. And what I found
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for me andy, especially as I've been to CEO and as we've gotten into
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a much large organization, if I weigh in too quickly, if I make
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a comment or a statement before I ask at least five questions, I can
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very easily derail progress and unintentionally doing so. Because of my role, and
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certainly other leaders have this too. Hey, if I make a statement.
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People are going to take that as long they're going to run with it.
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But unless I help kind of bring out the best of everybody in the room,
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we have the high propensity to make a suboptimal decision. And so the
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Hoosia rule is I try to ask at least five questions before I make a
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statement about project or a problem. And I have found that helps me slow
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down and makes me listen more and maybe more importantly, when I finally make
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my comment or statement related to the topic, the team seems to be more
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open because they know they've been hurt. And this, again, this is
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a way to ensure you stay between the guardrails of your chosen leadership philosophy,
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which is a servant leader. This is just if you do that, If
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you do this, if you essentially pay attention to this little rule you talked
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about, it keeps you there, which again, we all need those things.
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I want to just go back to one statement you made that you can
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quickly end the conversation by weighing in too early. And for leaders this is
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so important because we never come into a conversation without an opinion, right,
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and I never have to raise my hand to talk you know, I don't
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have to raise my hand and say i'd like to say so that I just
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boom. You know, I just say it because I'm the boss. So
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that discipline of keeping our mouth shut or to your point, which is even
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better, of asking questions to generate conversation, even when we're pretty confident we
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know where this needs to go. Again, it's a it's a subtle form
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of servant leadership. Yes, and maybe even in addition to that, Andy,
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I can walk into a meeting unprepared, uninformed and make a statement and
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I can still be taken as gospel. Yeah, that's even worse. Yeah.
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I was actually had coffee late yesterday afternoon with a guy who just took
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over a really, really large nonprofit in Atlanta, and he used to work
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for us, and they hired him away from us, and we were so
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proud of the fact that they, you know, picked off one of our
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top leaders. And he's doing a great job. But he and he's new,
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so he's only been there a year now. So he and I met
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with him six months ago. So we met yesterday and he talked about this
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very thing. He said, because he's never been the point leader in an
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organization before he said, I realized I share my opinion, and the next
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thing I know, the wheels are turning and I'm like, wait, wait,
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wait, that wasn't a decision. To your point, he said,
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I've had to learn to sort of preempt a com I mean by saying,
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this isn't a decision, let me be appeer for a moment and just enter
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into a discussion. And again, don't take what I'm saying as the end
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of the conversation. But he had to learn that the hard way because again
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he's accustomed to being one of the people at the table, not the person
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at the table. So this discipline of asking questions first before weighing in,
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it's huge. Anything else on that, well, I was just going to
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say. The other thing I've realized is that when you become the point leader,
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the joke is you get taller, funnier, and smarter. Yeah,
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And it is very hard to get true and honest feedback If you're always coming
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in with an opinion first, You're just not going to know the truth unless
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you kind of bring it out because of the just because you're the boss.
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And that's not a bad thing, it's just something that we have to work
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through. Yeah, one of the other things you mentioned, and I want
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to get to these other things on the list that you have. They're so
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good is you talk about and this was quite an interesting discipline to every day
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pre decide to be extraordinarily kind to a specific team member or a team member.
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Again, this goes back to I'm predeciding I have some rules for my
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life to ensure I stay between the guardrails of my leadership philosophy. Talk a
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little bit about that. I thought that was pretty amazing. Yeah, the
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practice really comes down to as you go into the office or the meeting or
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what have you, you as a leader, you have an opportunity to have
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a positive impact in someone's life. And that can be a note of encouragement.
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It can also be even admonishment. But the reality is the way that
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you deliver that can be something that could have a really positive effect. One
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of the aspects that I do this is through thank you cards. It's not
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fancy and it's not hard. It's not a text message, but it's actually
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a handwritten thank you card. We're all send to someone's home, and the
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idea behind that is one they're getting an email or excuse me, they're getting
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a letter from me at their home that is recognizing them for a contribution and
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thanking them, and they can celebrate that with their family. And what I've
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found one I don't get as many thank you cards now that I'm the leader,
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for whatever reason, but I do notice that people really appreciate that and
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it's actually something that they'll hold on to. So to me, it's just,
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hey, what are the ways that I can think or acknowledge? Think
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or acknowledge And that's just a tool to buy which I can do it.
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And the thing that's most impressive to me is that you don't put it in
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an envelope and have somebody lay it on their desk or in their cube.
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They receive it at home, which means they're going to read it out loud.
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That one extra step is extraordinary. Years ago, when Frank Blake was
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on the Leadership Podcast and we were talking about how do you reach deep into
13:35
an organization, he began writing handwritten notes to people who did extraordinary things between
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you know, basically the cash register back when we call it such a thing,
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when people actually stood there and checked you out. Yeah, And he
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said, then when they would go walk the floors. They would travel the
13:52
country, walk the floors of home depots. Employees would walk up to him
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with those notes. They would keep them forever because they got a hand written
13:58
note that was mailed to them from the CEO. So, yeah, those
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kinds of things are extraordinary. It's just a habit that keeps us within the
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context of our leadership philosophy, which in this case is cervaant leadership. Okay,
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we could talk the rest of the time about that. So look to
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your past to establish principles number two. Then second component, you talk about
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borrow from your mentors. What's that about. Well, I was very fortunate
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to have. I just had a lot of really great mentors in my life,
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men that were willing to take a chance on me to sort of lean
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into my life. And I have a library of the things that I've taken
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from them, and one of them was a way to represent what would could
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be considered just a very simple leadership philosophy, and we call it. Everyone
14:45
here at my company has heard the story many many times. They'll probably fast
14:48
forward the podcast as I go into this because they've heard it so many times,
14:50
which is we call it the four FS, which is fair firm friendly
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and not too familiar. You got to repeat those that's amazing. Ye,
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fair, firm, friendly, but not too familiar. Yeah, I had
15:05
to catch the they had to catch the extra f but has a couple extra
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words there. But yeah, So the concept is fair, especially with employees,
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but really with customers and suppliers and partners. We want to be seen
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as fair minded. We never want to take more than we deserve. We
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want to make sure that we're protecting what we deserve. But we want to
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be really fair minded. And people just like working with companies that act like
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that. That's not a hard one, right firm is Hey, when you
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are setting out expectations and you are going to hold people accountably something you need
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to be clear and you don't need to apologize for setting those expectations. I've
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seen a lot of leaders kind of struggle with what I might call taking a
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stand, and it's not being firm. It's not yelling or screaming or anything
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like that. It's just been, hey, we agree to an expectation.
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These are what we have, and so we're going to march forward accordingly friendly.
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It's just that it's like, hey, be approachable. It's very easy
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as the CEO, I could stay in my office and no one's going to
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come by unless I go find them, because they don't ever want to come
16:03
in my office because they probably think they're in trouble if they do. So
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you've got to be approachable and find ways to be on the court. And
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then the final one is not too familiar. Not too familiar is I've seen
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this mistake with leaders that they build really tight bonds with their teams, and
16:21
as they try to get to that more senior executive level, they're unable to
16:25
release those relational bonds and it causes I think many times poor decisions. You
16:30
lose clarity and perspective. And so not too familiar doesn't mean you're a loover.
16:34
It just means, hey, I may not be the guy going bowling
16:37
with the team every night. I'm going to keep some distance so that I
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can make sure that I'm doing my job correctly. That probably deserves an entire
16:45
podcast because that whole idea of friendly. But I have to be honest,
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we aren't friends. We can't be friends because there's an inequity. I'm your
16:56
boss and I can be as friendly and you, but there's there's just an
17:00
inequity, and there I shouldn't go to lunch with everybody every time. And
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like you, two or three of the people that I work with, I've
17:07
worked with for so long and knew before we begin working together and the relationship
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changed, and acknowledging that and staying in my lane in terms of that,
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it's a really difficult thing at times. Well, and maybe an additional point
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that it's actually a disservice to the person that works for you. They may
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not see it as such, but they don't need to be seen as the
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person has a special relationship with the boss. It needs to be based on
17:30
performance. Again, you're friendly, you can enjoy working together, but sort
17:34
of sharing a lot of personal aspects and time with them is probably something,
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certainly something I would encourage leaders to think about avoiding. Yeah, because people
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are going to assume that even if you're working hard for that not to be
17:45
the case. How could they not? Oh, yeah, well you guys
17:47
have known each other twenty years. I'll never be on the inside circle.
17:49
Well I'll never have known you for twenty years. That's true. But yeah,
17:55
Now to keep all this in context, So this is part of this
17:57
whole idea of borrow from your mentor so what I took from this correct me
18:00
if I'm wrong. Is I think it's great that you weren't afraid to say
18:04
to your team here's something that you're going to hear me talk about a lot.
18:08
I didn't originate this. I brought this in from some you know,
18:12
this is something somebody else taught me. And I think sometimes our desire to
18:18
be original, we're either not honest or we tweak an idea so we can
18:22
own it and it's not as good. So the freedom to bring into our
18:26
current leadership context things we've learned from other people and give those people credit.
18:32
Absolutely. Yeah, originality is you know, it's overrated for sure. Yeah.
18:36
I will cite books and make sure they know who the author is,
18:40
or I'll buy them the book to make sure that they read it. There's
18:42
no reason to own every idea. There's so many great ideas out there.
18:45
It's how those get applied and you can say, hey, this worked for
18:48
me, that's why I'm recommending it. Okay, first look through your past
18:52
established principles. This is sort of remember where you came from and hang on
18:56
to those core principles. Number two was to borrow from your mentors. And
19:00
then number three, you talk about moving outside your comfort zone, which of
19:04
course is something we all have to do from time to time, which sometimes
19:08
entails, I don't know if you want to talk about this or not,
19:11
it also entails moving outside of your competency zone, which can be detrimental.
19:15
So there are times you got to step outside your comfort zone. But for
19:18
me, when I do that, I realize, uh, oh, I
19:21
shouldn't stay here too long. Yeah, I'm going to bring my weakness into
19:26
an area where we need more strength last weakness. So talk a little bit
19:30
about stepping outside of the comfort zone. Yeah, the best example, and
19:34
I suspect most leaders that were in leadership through the pandemic could probably say we
19:40
were all push out of our comfort zone in one way, shape or form,
19:45
you know, And to some extent, the leadership in that is almost
19:48
easier. And I say that with air quotes, and the reason I say
19:51
that is you just got to You are so focused on what is in front
19:56
of you. You're just making decisions. You're doing it as a team.
19:59
It's much mon. We had to, Yeah, but there was no choice.
20:02
It was right. It was super clear. Our business took a significant
20:06
hit in terms of our financial performance, and we had to make hard decisions
20:08
very quickly, move everybody home in two days. It was all the things
20:12
that everyone can look back in time and remember how it happened. One of
20:18
the comfort zone piece actually for me, came afterward, which is I'm an
20:22
in office guy. I'm in the office right now. I like being around
20:25
people. It's enjoyable for me. What I have found is there's a lot
20:27
of people that don't like being in the office, and we as an organization
20:33
have had to really embrace the hybrid stay at home, be productive, all
20:37
those things. And as much as I would like to be the guy that
20:41
says, hey, I want everybody back because that's better for me, it's
20:45
clearly doesn't make a difference to the organization as long as we continue to put
20:49
our results on the board. But I've had just sort of let that desire
20:55
go to say, Hey, as much as I wanted, this is better
20:56
for you, I'm happy to adapt. I'll be in the office if you
21:00
need me. So so, I'm significantly older than you, and already you're
21:04
starting to sound like the old guy, right I am to get off my
21:08
long guy. It is it's embarrassing, and it's the Hey, we have
21:11
an office. You think the reason we have an office is so you can
21:15
come to the office. What's wrong with you people? Right? Do you
21:17
know how much we pay for this thing? Square foot we're paying for this
21:21
thing? Yeah, that's right. You decorated that space, Come use it.
21:23
Okay. So again, there are so many applications I'm sure to stepping
21:27
outside the comfort zone. Again, there's often a tiptation in leadership to get
21:33
outside of my comfort zone because there's something that I feel like I need to
21:37
address, there's a problem I need to solve. And then there are times
21:40
when in my world I will be so frustrated with something that instead of going
21:45
using proper channels or principles to address it, I will just get outside of
21:51
my responsibility zone, which is often my comfort zone, and I don't manage
21:56
those things. Well. Are you ever tempted to cross that ethereal line?
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Yes, especially when things go wrong, Because I'm a driver. I want
22:07
to win. I want results, and I obviously want them sooner than everybody
22:11
else wants them, because that's just that's the way that I'm wired. I
22:15
notice when things are going wrong, I can get really frustrated very very quickly,
22:19
and that starts to show up. And when that shows up to the
22:23
point I made earlier, things start to shut down. And then I'm sort
22:26
of talking about things that I just don't really know that much about. We
22:30
have a big company, We're in seventeen countries. I don't know everything.
22:33
But my frustration and anger brings me to the point where I think that I
22:37
should just weigh in on it, and I should probably stay in my comfort
22:42
zone and not leak outside of that and anything before we move on. That
22:47
sort of tips you off. Oh, here I go again, because I
22:51
know what it is for me. I mean, I've been doing this long
22:52
enough while I realize, uh, oh, Andy, there's that thing.
22:56
Yeah, and for me when I start having conversations with staff, for people,
23:02
I realize, Okay, Andy, you're gearing up. You got a
23:04
lot of energy around this. If you step over there, you're bringing too
23:07
much energy with too much authority. And as Diane, my assistant reminds me,
23:11
and Andy, your word's weigh one hundred pounds, So just this probably
23:15
isn't the time to address it about for you, any internal red flags.
23:21
Yeah, I can almost tell I've gotten I actually got coaching on this topic
23:26
because I can get so animated that again, it's just a disservice that when
23:30
I'm going to a meeting where I think that might happen, I put my
23:36
watch on the other wrists. Wow. And it's literally just a cute Now.
23:41
I think probably in the organization they know that if I have my watch
23:44
on the other wrist, it's probably going to be a bad meeting. But
23:45
at least it does express the fact that I'm trying to make sure that I'm
23:49
keeping it in the risks. Wow. And so the people your direct reports,
23:52
they know that's a that you do that well they do now, yeah,
23:57
yeah, they will if they listen to it. Now, I'm self
24:00
disclosed that I'm trying to make sure that I can. You know, you
24:04
want to keep the bubble in the middle as much as possible as the as
24:07
the point leader and emotion can be appropriate in certain occasions, but probably five
24:14
percent of the time, not forty percent of the time, watch on the
24:18
other wrist. Oh, David's in a mood. Everybody, I think,
24:22
I don't feel well. I don't, that's right. Yeah, I should
24:25
probably do that at home with my kids as well. They would start to
24:27
know if I come home with my watch and never on in a one on
24:30
one right performance performance reviews. Okay, all right, moving on. That's
24:36
that's great advice. Okay, and again just bring this back to context.
24:40
These are personal habits you've developed to make sure you stay in the zone of
24:45
servant leadership, not top down. I have all the answers, okay,
24:48
So number one, look to your past established principles, borrow from your mentors.
24:52
You don't have to take credit for everything, move outside your comfort zone
24:56
from time to time. And then this this last one, increase clarity.
25:02
What do you mean by that? Well, this is this is so patently
25:06
obvious. I mean this has been You've spoken about this in the past.
25:08
Patrick Luncioni's book The Advantage has a great, great content around this. And
25:14
what I would just say is, if I look back at the moments where
25:18
I had a quote unquote miss or failure as a leader, my own it
25:22
of that always goes back to clarity, because just because I said it,
25:27
or I sent the email or we did a webcast or whatever, that doesn't
25:33
mean it's clear. That just means I said something. And so what I
25:36
have found is it clarity takes an enormous amount of energy and probably is job
25:42
number one for the point leader because clarity can disappear so quickly in organizations that
25:48
it's this constant, constant reminder. And so I've tried to make sure that
25:53
when I'm ending meetings or when we're moving on forward initiatives or plans, that
25:59
we stop each meet is everybody clear? Are there any questions? Is something
26:03
we can start over if we need to? Whatever that is, just to
26:06
make sure people have the opportunity to weigh in. And you touched on something
26:10
and went by it. I want to come back to there is a tendency
26:14
for me, I know, to get frustrated with the end user because they
26:19
don't seem to understand what I so clearly are articulated. How how is it
26:26
that twenty five people could not under you know what I'm saying if I don't
26:30
hit pause and realize and doctor Hendrix, one of my graduate school professors,
26:34
would say this, if the student hasn't learned, it's because the teacher hasn't
26:38
taught. If the student hasn't learned, the teacher hasn't taught. That just
26:42
reverberates I just have to remind myself, Okay, if they're still asking questions,
26:47
they're not stupid, they're smart people. It's back on me. Yes,
26:52
like you said, I've said it twenty times. We did a video
26:53
and I sent out an email. If it's not clear, I got work
26:56
to do. Yesterday afternoon, I went home very frustrated around a series of
27:02
questions that has come from staff, around one issue that I think, how
27:07
many times do I have? And last night I was so frustrated. I'm
27:11
just gonna do a little therapy here with you, David. I was so
27:15
frustrated, you know, last night, I'm thinking about it. This morning
27:18
I get up and this morning I realized, Okay, my responsibility isn't to
27:22
chastise them or to explain to them how clear I've been. Even that's what
27:26
I want to do, It's okay, own it. Is there another way
27:30
to make it clear? And I came up with, with the help of
27:33
my assistant, Okay, let's let's try this approach, which was way better.
27:37
So if I don't own that, I will telegraph frustration. That ultimately
27:41
is my responsibility. So clarity is huge. Yeah, And the downside of
27:45
that is everyone else thinks it's Okay, to be unclear too, because you're
27:52
the boss, right, you could just say, hey, do what I
27:53
say, here's what I said. I don't need to tell you again,
27:56
and that's that is obviously a disservice to the organize as well. Totally wow.
28:00
Okay, Well, as we wrap up, these are extraordinary takeaways.
28:06
So for all of our podcast listeners, hopefully you have some sort of leadership
28:08
philosophy that you are trying to align your actions with your behaviors to whatever it
28:12
is you choose it. But you're going to need some habits, as David
28:17
just illustrated, to keep that in front of you, or we just drift
28:19
back to our same old, same ole and what was modeled for So,
28:22
David, as we wrap up, any final thoughts on this topic for our
28:26
audience, Yeah, the one thing I would just say is for a lot
28:30
of leaders who are listening is servant leadership is a great ideology. Being others
28:33
first, it makes a difference, but remember that ultimately it's also about results.
28:38
Servant leadership is a way to garner the support of people to produce extraordinary
28:44
results. If it didn't produce results, we wouldn't be talking about it.
28:47
Yep. And again it seems so soft. Fortunately, enough people have talked
28:51
about this concept for so long, people who've accomplished extraordinary things, like yourself
28:56
that has taken this idea seriously. But living it out personally and developing the
29:00
disciplines around it are a whole other thing. And this conversation has been so
29:04
extremely helpful. That's all the time we have for today. Thanks so much
29:07
for being here, David. I can't wait to see you again. And
29:10
to all of our listeners, we want to thank you for joining us and
29:12
invite you to visit the Andy Stanley dot com website where you can download the
29:17
Leadership podcast application Guy that includes a summary of this discussion plus questions for reflection
29:23
or group discussion, and be sure you join us next week for Reverb.
29:27
The Reverb episode is where Susie and I talk about David. Rather than to
29:33
David. We get to unpack what he has said and elaborate on it in
29:37
our own unique Susie and Andy kind of way. So make sure you join
29:41
us next week right here on the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast