Latest / The Book Deal / The Publishing Deal: Publisher, Tom Langshaw, on the strongest elements in a fiction manuscript, what to include in your submission pitch, and industry trends

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The Publishing Deal: Publisher, Tom Langshaw, on the strongest elements in a fiction manuscript, what to include in your submission pitch, and industry trends · The Book Deal

• 0:09
  Tina Strachan: This is The Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
• 0:15
  Tina Strachan: We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.
• 0:25
  Tina Strachan: So no matter what stage of writing your at.
• 0:28
  Tina Strachan: We've got you covered.
• 0:29
  Tina Strachan: I'm Tina Strachan.
• 0:30
  Tina Strachan: I'm Madeleine Cleary.
• 0:32
  Tina Strachan: And I'm Natasha Rai.
• 0:34
  Tina Strachan: And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time.
• 0:43
  Tina Strachan: The Book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners, of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:56
  Natasha Rai: Tom Langshaw is a publisher at Pantera Press, an imprint of Hardie Grant Publishing.
• 1:01
  Natasha Rai: Before his time at Pantera, he worked in various editorial roles at Penguin Random House.
• 1:06
  Natasha Rai: Tom publishes a wide range of nonfiction titles, including memoir, narrative nonfiction and personal development, and selected fiction titles.
• 1:16
  Natasha Rai: Authors he has worked with include Nadine J Cohen, Holden Sheppard, and Joseph Earp, performers, Em Rusciano, Courtney Act, and Natalie Bassingthwaighte and writers, Paul Callaghan, Elfy Scott, and James Colley.
• 1:35
  Natasha Rai: Tom Langshaw, welcome to The Book Deal podcast.
• 1:38
  Tom Langshaw: Hi Tash.
• 1:38
  Tom Langshaw: Thanks for having me.
• 1:39
  Natasha Rai: My pleasure.
• 1:40
  Natasha Rai: Um, I think this is going to be quite a popular episode.
• 1:45
  Natasha Rai: Um, it's very lovely of you to agree to be, um, to talk to me today about publishing and publishing related advice, hopefully.
• 1:55
  Natasha Rai: Um, so let's start with what you do.
• 1:57
  Natasha Rai: So you are the publisher at Pantera Press?
• 2:01
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 2:01
  Natasha Rai: Can you tell me a little bit about like what your day-to-day work looks like?
• 2:06
  Tom Langshaw: So I'm involved with a book for its entire lifecycle, basically.
• 2:11
  Tom Langshaw: So I seek out new submissions, whether that's a complete manuscript, uh, more for fiction or for nonfiction.
• 2:19
  Tom Langshaw: Sometimes it's the germ of an idea that I'm developing with an author to flesh out a proposal, and then I will take that manuscript or proposal to an acquisitions meeting.
• 2:31
  Tom Langshaw: If my colleagues are excited about it, as excited as I am, then I will hope to make an offer with the author.
• 2:37
  Tom Langshaw: I will then, if that offer is accepted, negotiate a contract, um, with the author direct or with their agent, and then the process begins from there.
• 2:48
  Tom Langshaw: We work on the editorial development of that manuscript, and we see it through the various stages of editorial.
• 2:55
  Tom Langshaw: We see it through the structural, the copy, edit, the proofread, and then once the book is printed, I turn my attention fully to the promotional side of things.
• 3:02
  Tom Langshaw: So the marketing and publicity campaigns.
• 3:05
  Tom Langshaw: Liaising with the sales team to make sure the book is in as many retail channels as possible.
• 3:10
  Tom Langshaw: And then beyond that initial promotional window, there's a whole longer term relationship with that author over multiple books, hopefully.
• 3:21
  Tom Langshaw: Um, but even in terms of submitting to prizes or prize, submitting the book to overseas publishers and agents with the hope of a rights deal.
• 3:31
  Tom Langshaw: So basically I'm a central point of contact for between the author and all different parts of the business.
• 3:38
  Tom Langshaw: So a lot of my job is liaising between different people.
• 3:42
  Tom Langshaw: Um, and really once I heard one of my colleagues at Penguin refer to the job of a publisher as being roughly equivalent to a producer of a film.
• 3:53
  Tom Langshaw: So your job is to produce the work and be in the background, but you are furiously paddling away to make sure that everything is running smoothly.
• 4:02
  Natasha Rai: Wow.
• 4:04
  Natasha Rai: Any given week, you are working on several projects, several books at different stages, right?
• 4:09
  Tom Langshaw: Yes, definitely.
• 4:10
  Tom Langshaw: And I think that's the challenging thing, but also the exciting part of the job is that you can be in the early formative stages of one project, and then you can also be working with an author who you've been working on multiple books with over many years.
• 4:26
  Tom Langshaw: Um, and so yes, very much at different stages of development at any given time.
• 4:31
  Tom Langshaw: And that, um, that constant balancing act is a big part of the job.
• 4:35
  Tom Langshaw: But I think it does keep things interesting and it, it also just the, the diversity of subject matter and that the different people you're working with at any given moment keeps things interesting.
• 4:45
  Natasha Rai: So when you read something new, what is it that you find exciting about it?
• 4:50
  Natasha Rai: Like, what is it that you go, Ooh, I, I think I wanna know more about this, or I wanna take a chance on this?
• 4:56
  Tom Langshaw: I think the proposition is really different depending on what type of.
• 5:02
  Tom Langshaw: Book it might be.
• 5:03
  Tom Langshaw: So for a work of fiction, if I have a complete manuscript in front of me, that is very much a judgment of my taste and whether the manuscript is to my taste.
• 5:16
  Tom Langshaw: It's a question of a subjective question, I should say, of my feeling about the manuscript's quality and um, really connecting.
• 5:26
  Tom Langshaw: First and foremost, and this is almost a cliche at this point, every publisher and agent says this, but it is about voice for fiction.
• 5:32
  Tom Langshaw: I really need to connect with the voice of a character or the narrator, and it needs to really leap out to me as fully formed.
• 5:41
  Tom Langshaw: And that's quite often what I'm looking for is voice-driven, character-driven, works of fiction.
• 5:48
  Tom Langshaw: Um, and I think a lot of people would agree with this.
• 5:53
  Tom Langshaw: I probably read about 50 pages and that's my standard.
• 5:57
  Tom Langshaw: Cutoff.
• 5:58
  Tom Langshaw: Uh, if I'm engaged by this point and really feel compelled to keep reading, then I will continue.
• 6:03
  Tom Langshaw: But if not, the sad reality is that there's a, there are only so many hours in the day that I can devote to a manuscript, and I feel like that's a fair enough chance that I've given a manuscript of 50 pages in.
• 6:14
  Tom Langshaw: Uh, but if it hasn't grabbed me, then I'm just not the right reader for it.
• 6:17
  Tom Langshaw: And I'm always at pains to tell writers and agents if it's not for me, it just means I'm not the right advocate and champion for your work.
• 6:26
  Tom Langshaw: It doesn't mean any definitive value judgment on the work itself.
• 6:33
  Natasha Rai: How many manuscripts do you read in like a week typically?
• 6:37
  Tom Langshaw: Oh, that definitely differs week to week.
• 6:41
  Tom Langshaw: I can tell you on my current manuscript reading list, I have, I think I counted 13, um, that I have to get through at some point soon.
• 6:52
  Tom Langshaw: And.
• 6:53
  Tom Langshaw: That's a constant balancing act as well, is working on the projects that I have under contract.
• 6:59
  Tom Langshaw: And, uh, those that are more of a speculative venture at this point because I haven't yet read them and haven't yet been able to make that judgment.
• 7:07
  Tom Langshaw: Um, so yes, the speed with which I read them maybe differs from week to week, and that number differs from week to week as well.
• 7:15
  Tom Langshaw: Um, but yes, certainly there's a bit of a heaving pile at the moment.
• 7:20
  Tom Langshaw: But the, the other thing I should say is that that's all, that's more so for fiction.
• 7:27
  Tom Langshaw: So on the nonfiction side, I would say that the process is often quite different in terms of what is leading me towards a book idea.
• 7:36
  Tom Langshaw: Um, quite often it is just an idea to start with, or it's, I've read an article by an, uh, by a writer and I, and I've thought that's particularly interesting.
• 7:48
  Tom Langshaw: Or even just, I think this.
• 7:50
  Tom Langshaw: Idea hasn't yet been covered at book length and there's potential there.
• 7:56
  Tom Langshaw: And then I seek out a writer who I think would be the best fit for that project.
• 8:00
  Tom Langshaw: So I would say it's quite a different proposition from the early stages, um, for, for fiction versus nonfiction.
• 8:07
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, it does sound like that because, you know, I have non-writer friends who ask me things like, oh, so are you gonna submit something to the publisher?
• 8:15
  Natasha Rai: Like, is it finished?
• 8:16
  Natasha Rai: I'm like, well, I only write fiction.
• 8:17
  Natasha Rai: So it, it has to be, it's quite rare, isn't it, to get picked, get picked up on an idea for fiction.
• 8:23
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 8:23
  Natasha Rai: Quite rare.
• 8:24
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 8:24
  Natasha Rai: Unless you're, I dunno, a Jane Harper or a Trent Dalton, they, they certainly set their own rules more so.
• 8:30
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 8:31
  Natasha Rai: So Tom, you are also an editor?
• 8:34
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 8:34
  Natasha Rai: Um, and recently a literary agent told me that you are at the moment, right now in our industry, one of the best editors.
• 8:43
  Tom Langshaw: Oh, that's very nice of them to say.
• 8:45
  Natasha Rai: And I believe that so.
• 8:48
  Natasha Rai: In your experience, like a lot of publish publishers, editors too, or is that something that you know, is, I don't know.
• 8:56
  Natasha Rai: Not as usual.
• 8:58
  Tom Langshaw: Publishers do have different backgrounds in terms of their skillset.
• 9:01
  Tom Langshaw: I would say that the traditional pipeline always has been that publishers come from editorial.
• 9:07
  Tom Langshaw: Um, there are some who have a marketing publicity background, some that have a sales background, and they obviously bring different attributes to the role as a result.
• 9:16
  Tom Langshaw: But, um, I mean, I can only speak to my own experience here, but having that editorial background I think has been a huge, um, help to me as a publisher because you really do, um, having worked up through the editorial ladder, um, and I was at Penguin for many years and, and seeing.
• 9:36
  Tom Langshaw: The great publishers there do their bigger picture structural edits and seeing how they briefed in copy edits.
• 9:42
  Tom Langshaw: For example, you do really learn on the job, it's an apprenticeship.
• 9:45
  Tom Langshaw: Mm-hmm.
• 9:45
  Tom Langshaw: You learn on the job.
• 9:47
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 9:47
  Tom Langshaw: Um, so that was hugely valuable to me, and I think also cemented my desire to be a hands-on editorial focused publisher.
• 10:00
  Tom Langshaw: That's what I enjoy about the job.
• 10:02
  Tom Langshaw: It's, it's what keeps me going.
• 10:03
  Tom Langshaw: And I think that is a, an important part of, um, the job as well is, is focusing on what brings you mind.
• 10:09
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah.
• 10:10
  Natasha Rai: So, if it's okay with you, let's go back.
• 10:12
  Natasha Rai: Um, when did you first realized or discovered your passion or interest for, you know, not just editing, but reading in that very particular way that editors do?
• 10:23
  Natasha Rai: I think, well, going way back.
• 10:26
  Tom Langshaw: Depends how far you want to go back, Tash.
• 10:28
  Tom Langshaw: Should we go to the beginning?
• 10:29
  Tom Langshaw: Let's, let's
• 10:29
  Natasha Rai: go all the way back.
• 10:30
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 10:30
  Tom Langshaw: So I grew up as the son of a librarian, so books were always a really.
• 10:35
  Tom Langshaw: Important part of the household I grew up in.
• 10:38
  Tom Langshaw: And my mom was always very encouraging of reading.
• 10:42
  Tom Langshaw: And I think also there's a, a part of me that was a queer kid who found refuge in the school library as well, in primary school and then in high school.
• 10:54
  Tom Langshaw: So books were always a safe space for me.
• 10:57
  Tom Langshaw: Mm-hmm.
• 10:58
  Tom Langshaw: And that's where my love for reading itself came from in terms of when I decided I wanted to, wanted to pursue that professionally.
• 11:07
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah.
• 11:08
  Tom Langshaw: But just before
• 11:08
  Natasha Rai: you tell me, yeah.
• 11:09
  Natasha Rai: When you were reading, were you just reading widely or were there particular types of stories that you were really drawn to as you know?
• 11:16
  Tom Langshaw: Oh, I think I was reading really widely and I did not have, I think in later years when I was a student at uni, for example, I developed a bit of snobbery around like, I, I really.
• 11:33
  Tom Langshaw: Was into literary fiction at that point in time.
• 11:35
  Tom Langshaw: But when I think back to my formative years of reading, I wasn't at all.
• 11:39
  Tom Langshaw: I was really wide ranging as a reader.
• 11:41
  Tom Langshaw: I loved, I mean, I even really got into the Twilight Series as a teenager and had no shame about that.
• 11:48
  Tom Langshaw: And I think that was a great pathway to publishing in the sense that you have to let some of those prejudices go if you wanna work in publishing, you have to understand that there are so many different kinds of readers that seek out different kinds of books in different genres, and that's a good thing.
• 12:08
  Tom Langshaw: And I, yeah.
• 12:11
  Tom Langshaw: So I can't remember specific examples beyond that, but certainly I, I sought out all kinds of books.
• 12:17
  Tom Langshaw: Mm
• 12:17
  Natasha Rai: mm So when you went to uni, did you do something that was like study-wise related to publishing or editing or creative
• 12:26
  Tom Langshaw: writing?
• 12:27
  Tom Langshaw: I did publishing was probably the meeting point between my two majors in that I did at Sydney Uni, a media communications degree with an arts major in English literature.
• 12:40
  Tom Langshaw: So I had always thought of publishing as this, this meeting point, but I wasn't quite sure how one entered that industry.
• 12:52
  Tom Langshaw: It seemed from the outside.
• 12:53
  Tom Langshaw: And it is a small, opaque industry.
• 12:57
  Tom Langshaw: Yes.
• 12:58
  Tom Langshaw: Uh, quite impenetrable.
• 12:59
  Tom Langshaw: So I was lucky enough in the final year of my degree, my undergraduate degree, to, I had to do an internship as part of that degree.
• 13:11
  Tom Langshaw: And one of the publicists at what was then Random House pre-merger with Penguin, uh, was a graduate that of that degree also, and was seeking out interns from.
• 13:22
  Tom Langshaw: That cohort.
• 13:23
  Tom Langshaw: And I don't think anyone else applied.
• 13:24
  Tom Langshaw: I think everyone else in my cohort wanted to be journalists or they wanted to work in pr.
• 13:29
  Tom Langshaw: Oh.
• 13:29
  Tom Langshaw: And so I was the only candidate who applied for this internship and I got it and was lucky enough that it counted towards my course credits.
• 13:39
  Tom Langshaw: So basically I started as an intern in the publicity department at Random House and did that for a few months.
• 13:45
  Tom Langshaw: And then again, a lot of it is luck and timing.
• 13:49
  Tom Langshaw: There was a project that the editorial team at Random House did an extra pair of hands-on, and I had shown in hindsight, what was maybe overzealous enthusiasm to uh, be a part of anything and everything that was on offer.
• 14:06
  Tom Langshaw: So I helped out with that project for a few months and was lucky enough in that final year to also be working part-time by this point, so I could afford to do an extra few months of internship and basically by the end of that project.
• 14:21
  Tom Langshaw: An assistant level role opened up as a PA to the publishing director.
• 14:26
  Tom Langshaw: Um, I think maybe they felt bad for me and they just said, Hey, we'll throw a dog a bone.
• 14:33
  Tom Langshaw: Um, here's an assistant level role.
• 14:34
  Tom Langshaw: Do you want it?
• 14:34
  Tom Langshaw: And I, I took it with both hands.
• 14:37
  Tom Langshaw: Yes.
• 14:37
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 14:37
  Tom Langshaw: So I was a PA and an editorial assistant for a couple of years, and then I was,
• 14:44
  Natasha Rai: and can I just ask something about that?
• 14:46
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 14:46
  Natasha Rai: In that role, do you get to do like read manuscripts and do you get to kind of, not practice, but get that instinct and get, start getting that, um, experience of reading a certain way and editing and looking for certain things?
• 15:01
  Tom Langshaw: The best part about that assistant role was that as the PA to the publishing director, I was in all the acquisitions meetings, taking minutes, and all the covers meetings and the positioning meetings.
• 15:12
  Tom Langshaw: Oh, so being a invaluable experience.
• 15:16
  Natasha Rai: Yeah,
• 15:16
  Tom Langshaw: absolutely.
• 15:17
  Tom Langshaw: Being able to see how all those conversations.
• 15:20
  Tom Langshaw: Took place from the very beginning was really instructive and demystifying and um, and quite empowering in a way because I think sometimes if you start as an editorial assistant without being, having that pa kind of element, you see how things work within one department.
• 15:42
  Tom Langshaw: But at the larger houses in particular, the departments, so sales, publicity, marketing, editorial, publishing, everyone's quite siloed off.
• 15:51
  Tom Langshaw: Um, and that's just an organizational dynamic, but I got to see how all those different departments interacted at those meetings.
• 16:00
  Tom Langshaw: Mm-hmm.
• 16:00
  Tom Langshaw: And who had input over what decisions.
• 16:03
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 16:04
  Tom Langshaw: So I really enjoyed that.
• 16:06
  Natasha Rai: And at that time, what was, if you remember, like were there things that you learned or you experienced that you found really surprising?
• 16:14
  Tom Langshaw: I think I was surprised by.
• 16:19
  Tom Langshaw: And, and again, I can only speak to Of course, yeah.
• 16:21
  Tom Langshaw: Of the big experience.
• 16:22
  Tom Langshaw: So it was at, what was by then Penguin Random House.
• 16:27
  Tom Langshaw: So the largest trade publishing house, the largest of the big five publishers.
• 16:31
  Tom Langshaw: Mm-hmm.
• 16:32
  Tom Langshaw: Um, and seeing from the very get go how much input sales had over a lot of the decisions that were made and how ruthlessly commercial a lot of the business can be.
• 16:45
  Tom Langshaw: 'cause it is a business.
• 16:46
  Tom Langshaw: And I think that was for someone who had, especially for those previous few years, been really wedded to the idea of capital L literature.
• 16:55
  Tom Langshaw: Um, and had developed that kind of snobbery around literary fiction.
• 16:59
  Tom Langshaw: Um, seeing the business side.
• 17:02
  Tom Langshaw: And I think that is what publishing is, right?
• 17:03
  Tom Langshaw: It's art and commerce in constant negotiation and tension.
• 17:07
  Tom Langshaw: Um, but seeing how much that informed the decision making was a real eyeopener, um, from the very beginning.
• 17:15
  Tom Langshaw: Um, I think I was also surprised by.
• 17:19
  Tom Langshaw: How quickly trends came and went.
• 17:22
  Tom Langshaw: Oh.
• 17:23
  Tom Langshaw: And how quickly lessons were learned.
• 17:26
  Tom Langshaw: And unlearnt, I'll never forget the year before the Dry by Jane Harper came out, there was this received wisdom that Australian crime novels that felt particularly Australian would not sell.
• 17:42
  Tom Langshaw: And that was because the sense was that crime readers locally sought out novels set in larger cities like New York and London.
• 17:52
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah.
• 17:53
  Tom Langshaw: And they wanted that kind of global feel to them.
• 17:55
  Tom Langshaw: But honestly, it took, and obviously I should say as well, there were books that had bucked that trend to some degree.
• 18:03
  Tom Langshaw: But when you have a book like The Dryer that comes out and makes such an impact and has had so many imitators as well.
• 18:13
  Tom Langshaw: Exactly.
• 18:13
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 18:14
  Tom Langshaw: A whole and, and.
• 18:16
  Tom Langshaw: Trend of Australian authored crime being successful continues to this day.
• 18:20
  Tom Langshaw: So,
• 18:21
  Natasha Rai: well it's like a genre now in itself.
• 18:22
  Natasha Rai: Yeah,
• 18:22
  Tom Langshaw: absolutely.
• 18:23
  Tom Langshaw: Um, Rural noir is a whole sub-genre and it took more than one book, but largely this book to shake that receipt with them and so all those orthodoxies can come and go.
• 18:37
  Tom Langshaw: I think that's one of the things I enjoy most about publishing is there are these rules, but there are so often exceptions to the rule.
• 18:45
  Tom Langshaw: And actually the capacity for this business to surprise you is, um, one of the more humbling but also exciting parts of the job.
• 18:55
  Natasha Rai: But also, you know, that's such an interesting thought because obviously the like sales team has a lot of say because they have to put together.
• 19:02
  Natasha Rai: How are they going to put the book out in the world, along with the publishers, et cetera.
• 19:07
  Natasha Rai: But then who gets to decide these rules?
• 19:09
  Natasha Rai: Like who, who has this initial thought of this type of book may not sell so well here, or this might do quite well?
• 19:16
  Natasha Rai: Like how, how has that come about?
• 19:18
  Tom Langshaw: To some degree, there is data that backs up these ideas and so BookScan is a tool that every publisher has that tracks most if not a hundred percent of book sales through the till at Australian stores.
• 19:32
  Tom Langshaw: Mm-hmm.
• 19:33
  Tom Langshaw: Retail channels.
• 19:34
  Tom Langshaw: And that data can inform decision making and it's probably more useful in some genres than others.
• 19:45
  Tom Langshaw: Um, for example, I dunno how useful it is in literary fiction to discuss it.
• 19:50
  Tom Langshaw: It feels a bit apples and oranges sometimes to be discussing these two works alongside each other if they're experimenting or innovating with genre in different ways.
• 19:58
  Tom Langshaw: Mm-hmm.
• 19:59
  Natasha Rai: Um.
• 20:01
  Tom Langshaw: That data does inform the decision making.
• 20:03
  Tom Langshaw: Um, as I say, and publishers are constantly looking at how particular books have sold in the market.
• 20:11
  Tom Langshaw: They're looking for, um, the right comparison titles that might frame a book's success within the market.
• 20:21
  Tom Langshaw: Mm-hmm.
• 20:21
  Tom Langshaw: If there is a precedent for this type of book, having performed well with a particular readership.
• 20:29
  Tom Langshaw: Um, so there are, there is some basis to that decision making, but also it's a deeply speculative subjective industry.
• 20:39
  Tom Langshaw: And, you know, speculation is at the core of it, right?
• 20:43
  Tom Langshaw: It's this idea of publishers making lots of little, small bets with the books that they're acquiring and they're hoping that as many of them are gonna work out as possible, but there is no magic formula and.
• 20:57
  Tom Langshaw: I think every publisher, which is, they knew what that magic formula was, but um, if we knew we'd be doing it all the time.
• 21:03
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, exactly.
• 21:05
  Natasha Rai: So, so then coming back to you, um, you were assistant, um, at, uh, pen, random House Penguin as well.
• 21:13
  Natasha Rai: So where, where from there did you then kind of get promoted up from there?
• 21:18
  Natasha Rai: What happened next?
• 21:19
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah, so I was promoted to editor, uh, after having been a PA and editorial assistant, and then I was promoted to senior editor and then in the depths of COVID, even though I loved editorial work, had a bit of a, a COVID crisis as everyone did.
• 21:39
  Tom Langshaw: And I moved into audio production within Penguin Random House, which Oh, wow.
• 21:47
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah, I, I was only there for a few months, not because I didn't enjoy it, and I did see it as quite complimentary to editorial work in a lot of ways.
• 21:55
  Tom Langshaw: Um, and I think it was exciting to be in a part of the business that is, was and is growing.
• 22:02
  Tom Langshaw: Um, but I was approached by Lex Hurst, a former colleague of mine from Penguin Random House, who had been at Pantera Press for a couple of years by then, Pantera being a Sydney based independent publisher.
• 22:17
  Tom Langshaw: And Lex said to me, look, we're we're expanding our team.
• 22:23
  Tom Langshaw: We would like a commissioning editor to come on board to acquire for our nonfiction list in particular, but also some fiction.
• 22:34
  Tom Langshaw: And she interviewed me and they offered me the role.
• 22:40
  Tom Langshaw: And I'd been at Penguin for I think about seven years, if not eight years, including the internship by this point.
• 22:49
  Tom Langshaw: Wow.
• 22:50
  Tom Langshaw: So it had been a long time there.
• 22:52
  Tom Langshaw: And I'd, I'd loved it.
• 22:53
  Tom Langshaw: I.
• 22:54
  Tom Langshaw: Nothing against, um, the work or my colleagues.
• 22:57
  Tom Langshaw: It was a great place to work, but um, by this point I did get the sense that if you are offered a commissioning role, they come up so rarely.
• 23:06
  Tom Langshaw: They're really few and far between.
• 23:07
  Tom Langshaw: And, um, for that reason I decided to move over, over to Pantera.
• 23:13
  Tom Langshaw: And I also had wanted, I was curious about how things would work at an independent publisher having been at one of the larger houses for quite some time, um, just to get a sense of the publishing landscape from a different perspective.
• 23:28
  Tom Langshaw: So I think I was curious about that as well.
• 23:30
  Tom Langshaw: And so I was at Penter, well have been at Pantera ever since, but we were last year bought out by Hardy Grant, which is a larger Australian independent.
• 23:41
  Tom Langshaw: So I've been at the largest, one of the smallest, and now somewhere in between.
• 23:47
  Tom Langshaw: Mm-hmm.
• 23:48
  Tom Langshaw: I've seen.
• 23:50
  Tom Langshaw: Publishing on the inside, I would say from, from kind of large, small and medium sized.
• 23:55
  Tom Langshaw: Medium.
• 23:55
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 23:56
  Natasha Rai: And, and obviously, well, it's not obvious, but it sounds obvious that you going from a senior editor to a commissioning publisher, you get a lot more responsibility and you also get more flexibility.
• 24:07
  Natasha Rai: Is that, would that be fair to say and choosing the books or the authors that you'd like to work with?
• 24:13
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah, certainly more autonomy in the projects you're working over.
• 24:17
  Tom Langshaw: It's a big step though.
• 24:18
  Tom Langshaw: I think it's certainly been the biggest step career wise because with editorial work, you are, there are very clearly defined boundaries around your role as an editor.
• 24:32
  Tom Langshaw: You are handed over a manuscript usually, but not always.
• 24:38
  Tom Langshaw: Once a structural edit has been completed and then you project manage or you directly do the copy, edit and, um.
• 24:48
  Tom Langshaw: You'll work with a freelancer on a proofread, and then once the book is sent to print, your job has ended, you congratulate the author and then move on.
• 24:58
  Tom Langshaw: You may, you may have a relationship continue with that author, but certainly there is no expectation for you to manage that relationship Yeah.
• 25:04
  Tom Langshaw: On, on an ongoing basis.
• 25:06
  Tom Langshaw: Mm-hmm.
• 25:06
  Tom Langshaw: Whereas as a publisher, I said to you, the, the boundaries are quite porous in terms of what job you're doing on any given day.
• 25:14
  Tom Langshaw: I mean, I was just this week at assigning at our warehouse with an author and I was on set at a shoot with them.
• 25:23
  Tom Langshaw: Um, as well as this morning I spent a few hours reading a manuscript.
• 25:29
  Tom Langshaw: So it's quite, it's a bit of everything.
• 25:32
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah.
• 25:33
  Tom Langshaw: I think it, it is a big step.
• 25:34
  Tom Langshaw: So there's, there's a big step up in responsibility, but also the, the expectation that comes with that, but also the privilege that comes with that.
• 25:44
  Tom Langshaw: Being able to shape your own list and be.
• 25:46
  Tom Langshaw: A gatekeeper.
• 25:48
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 25:49
  Natasha Rai: Um, so let's get some gossip.
• 25:54
  Natasha Rai: So what are some, let's start with the worst.
• 25:56
  Natasha Rai: What are some of the worst experiences you've ever had with writers?
• 25:59
  Natasha Rai: You don't have to name names.
• 26:00
  Natasha Rai: You can, if you want.
• 26:01
  Natasha Rai: You don't have to,
• 26:03
  Tom Langshaw: to be completely honest.
• 26:04
  Tom Langshaw: Okay.
• 26:04
  Tom Langshaw: The worst ones, I probably should say publicly.
• 26:07
  Tom Langshaw: Um, I mean, I can answer this in a positive way by stating the inverse, which is okay.
• 26:14
  Tom Langshaw: That the best long term relationships I've had with authors feel mutually respectful, trusting, and collaborative at their core.
• 26:23
  Tom Langshaw: I think the collaboration piece is such a, a publishing work, um, and where there's a great degree of ads and, but where also part of that respect means me as the publisher, respecting I have skin in the game, but also really respecting that it's the author's name on the book cover and that they have.
• 26:46
  Tom Langshaw: More skin in the game than I do.
• 26:48
  Tom Langshaw: Um, I mean, I will tell you one story has always stuck with me, which once an author asked me, I did interventionist edit on their nonfiction project.
• 27:05
  Tom Langshaw: The book needed it.
• 27:06
  Tom Langshaw: And well, I would, I would say that, wouldn't I?
• 27:09
  Tom Langshaw: But I did quite a bit of work to this manuscript.
• 27:12
  Tom Langshaw: And then when the author received it, they went on a call with me and said, Tom, I just have to ask, were you on drugs when you did this?
• 27:20
  Tom Langshaw: Edit it.
• 27:21
  Tom Langshaw: So over the top and not what I did.
• 27:26
  Tom Langshaw: And yeah, so I mean, you can kind of see the lack of respect in that.
• 27:30
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah, maybe they disagreed with some of the edits, which is of course fine and actually a necessary, I think part of the editorial process is just, and holding some kind of tension around that.
• 27:42
  Tom Langshaw: Um, but yes, I think.
• 27:46
  Tom Langshaw: One I that we are professionally trusting and respectful.
• 27:51
  Tom Langshaw: Mm.
• 27:51
  Tom Langshaw: And cool.
• 27:51
  Natasha Rai: And, and on that occasion, were you able to find a way forward together?
• 27:55
  Tom Langshaw: Do you remember?
• 27:55
  Tom Langshaw: This was, yes, we did.
• 27:59
  Tom Langshaw: Mm, we did.
• 28:01
  Tom Langshaw: And I think often I've now learned to identify, and, and you know, that's a very extreme example, but of course I've had other examples where there's pushback from an author, and I do wish that as part of the process.
• 28:13
  Tom Langshaw: I think again, it's, it's, the author's work at the, um, I did find a way forward, but I, I've, I've learnt over the years that quite often if an author feels, rightly or not, that they haven't been respected or their work hasn't been respected, feeling validated and heard.
• 28:36
  Tom Langshaw: Is such an important part of that process and hearing an author out is really crucial to find a way.
• 28:43
  Tom Langshaw: Often that doesn't mean committing to actually changing tack, but I think empathy goes a long way in those situations.
• 28:52
  Tom Langshaw: For sure.
• 28:54
  Tom Langshaw: Setting clear boundaries around what is professional communication.
• 28:56
  Tom Langshaw: Yes,
• 28:56
  Natasha Rai: exactly.
• 28:57
  Natasha Rai: We say on this podcast is when we are talking to writers, like, you know, just take some time when you get feedback, especially editorial feedback, just sit on it for a day or something and just then go back to it.
• 29:07
  Natasha Rai: 'cause initially it can be quite, uh, what's the word?
• 29:10
  Natasha Rai: Confronting or something'cause, you know, feedback or a criticism and it's just like, it's not, it's so not,
• 29:17
  Tom Langshaw: I often say take a few days.
• 29:18
  Tom Langshaw: If I don't, if I get radio silence from an author after I've sent them a structural edit in particular, I think that's quite a healthy part of the process.
• 29:28
  Tom Langshaw: Actually.
• 29:29
  Tom Langshaw: As you say, I, I want an author to sit with it.
• 29:33
  Tom Langshaw: And it, it, it is a process of, of moving beyond that initial knee jerk response.
• 29:38
  Tom Langshaw: And I, it is entirely understandable and valid that someone is going to feel that way because the job of the editor is to provide constructive feedback.
• 29:47
  Tom Langshaw: And also not all edits are sometimes Exactly.
• 29:50
  Tom Langshaw: Sometimes they are really difficult to wade through.
• 29:52
  Tom Langshaw: Sometimes they don't feel an edit has been provided in good faith.
• 29:57
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah.
• 29:57
  Tom Langshaw: And so, um, it, it is a bit of a negotiation, but even the best edits will require some degree of, um, internal negotiation to, to find the aspects that are gonna be most conducive to improving.
• 30:14
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah.
• 30:19
  Libby Iriks: Hi, I am Libby, author of Home to the Heart Country, a story that explores loneliness through the lens of someone with social anxiety.
• 30:27
  Libby Iriks: When Beth was small, all she wanted was to find a place to belong.
• 30:31
  Libby Iriks: Her mother's nomadic lifestyle made that impossible.
• 30:35
  Libby Iriks: Now, Beth's on her own and for the past four years, she's managed to put down roots in Townsville.
• 30:41
  Libby Iriks: She has a permanent and stable job, and although she feels invisible at work, she's content with the cute little cottage.
• 30:46
  Libby Iriks: She rents on the outskirts of town.
• 30:49
  Libby Iriks: Her world is thrown into turmoil.
• 30:51
  Libby Iriks: However, when she learns, the only home she's ever known is about to be sold out from under her.
• 30:57
  Libby Iriks: And then she gets a phone call from a solicitor in Western Australia who tells her she's the sole beneficiary in the will of an aunt.
• 31:04
  Libby Iriks: She never knew she had, but there's a catch.
• 31:08
  Libby Iriks: She has to travel to a small town on the other side of the country and live there for a period of three months, determined to claim the life-changing inheritance so she can buy her beloved cottage.
• 31:19
  Libby Iriks: Beth crosses the nullable and lands in Carl up a town that soon has her questioning who she is and where she came from.
• 31:27
  Libby Iriks: Helping her discover the answers is a cast of lovable and quirky characters, including Flo and Elderly crafter with secrets.
• 31:35
  Libby Iriks: Allie, the bubbly and vivacious manager of the local b and b and Noah, the ruggedly handsome farmer slash wannabe renovator, who Beth hires to help fix up the rundown old house she now owns.
• 31:48
  Libby Iriks: Home To The Heart Country is a story written from my own lived experience with social anxiety.
• 31:53
  Libby Iriks: It's a heartwarming and emotional journey of self-discovery that celebrates diversity and our own unique strengths published by HQ Fiction on the 25th of November.
• 32:03
  Libby Iriks: Home to the Heart Country is available now in print ebook and audio.
• 32:08
  Libby Iriks: Thanks so much for listening.
• 32:10
  Libby Iriks: Now back to the book Deal podcast.
• 32:16
  Natasha Rai: What's the relationship like with literary agents and what's the relationship like with booksellers?
• 32:21
  Natasha Rai: Very different parts of the chain, right?
• 32:24
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah, very much so.
• 32:25
  Tom Langshaw: Mm-hmm.
• 32:26
  Tom Langshaw: So I would say I have a direct relationship with a lot of agents because they're the ones submitting me the work.
• 32:33
  Tom Langshaw: And so yeah, that's a, that's a really important, um, relationship building.
• 32:38
  Tom Langshaw: Part of my job is to have good relationships with, with agents and also knowing that I will work on different kinds of projects and authors with them over the lifetime of my career.
• 32:53
  Tom Langshaw: Um, with booksellers, it's a bit more ad hoc, I would say, because the relationships in-house, within a publishing house with booksellers are mostly through, well, our sales team, because they sell directly to bookstores, particularly our, our sales reps in each state work directly with Indie booksellers.
• 33:16
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah.
• 33:16
  Tom Langshaw: Um, so they're the ones who have the relationships with, with the buyers and the floor staff at, so.
• 33:21
  Tom Langshaw: Publicists do too, because publicists are putting on launches in bookstores as well.
• 33:27
  Tom Langshaw: So they're the most, they're they're the primary points of contact Yeah.
• 33:31
  Tom Langshaw: In a publishing house with booksellers.
• 33:32
  Tom Langshaw: But certainly for any publisher taking their responsibility seriously to connect with readers, part of the job is connecting with booksellers.
• 33:46
  Tom Langshaw: Mm.
• 33:46
  Tom Langshaw: Um, and you know, I think the way that happens can change all the time.
• 33:52
  Tom Langshaw: Sometimes it's through social media, sometimes it is through having your own local bookstore that you're connected to and affecting the work of their staff is tastemakers day in, day out.
• 34:04
  Tom Langshaw: Um, and sometimes it's by going on tour or doing signings with an author and ing different stores, um, and hearing from.
• 34:15
  Tom Langshaw: Booksellers directly about what's working and what's not and what readers are seeking out.
• 34:20
  Tom Langshaw: I think it's always a really interesting part of the job because publishers can quite often be stuck in their office and not directly connecting with, um, yeah.
• 34:33
  Tom Langshaw: With readers.
• 34:34
  Natasha Rai: And, um, in terms of how you read, do you read differently when you're reading for work and for pleasure?
• 34:41
  Tom Langshaw: Oh, big time.
• 34:42
  Tom Langshaw: Mm-hmm.
• 34:43
  Tom Langshaw: I do have people in my personal life ask me this question often, and I say, I can turn off that critical editorial capacity, like a switch, and I have, oh, wow.
• 34:54
  Tom Langshaw: That's so cool.
• 34:55
  Tom Langshaw: Well, I think a lot of publishers would feel that.
• 34:57
  Tom Langshaw: I think, you know, to some degree, if I'm reading, I think, oh, you know, that's a, like any reader would, I think like, that's a bit farfetched or I don't quite connect with that character.
• 35:06
  Tom Langshaw: Or like they, they're not three-dimensional enough, but I'm not.
• 35:12
  Tom Langshaw: Thinking in the same forensic way I would as an editor, um, it would drive me to distraction to yes, do that.
• 35:20
  Tom Langshaw: And I will say, I've noticed within the last few years, particularly since I started commissioning, if I, I'm working at any given point on more nonfiction, say day, I'm seeking out for, uh, for reading, for pleasure.
• 35:39
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah.
• 35:40
  Tom Langshaw: And, and I think that makes sense because I need an escape from, for sure, from the day job.
• 35:44
  Tom Langshaw: And vice versa is true.
• 35:45
  Tom Langshaw: If I'm working on, and particularly if I'm working intensively on some fiction edits
• 35:52
  Natasha Rai: mm-hmm.
• 35:52
  Tom Langshaw: Then I will seek out some nonfiction because I don't wanna, maybe, I don't wanna crowd.
• 35:58
  Tom Langshaw: My mind with too many voices and characters if I'm really in an edit.
• 36:02
  Natasha Rai: Hmm.
• 36:03
  Natasha Rai: So into want to submit either to you as in a publisher or an agent, what are some things they can do to help themselves in terms of editing?
• 36:13
  Natasha Rai: Like what kind of eye can they bring to their own work?
• 36:16
  Natasha Rai: 'cause I know not all writers can be good editors and Cool.
• 36:21
  Tom Langshaw: That's a good question.
• 36:22
  Tom Langshaw: I do think, and maybe this is not the most helpful bit of advice, but I do think the ability to hear constructive feedback as a writer is really crucial.
• 36:34
  Tom Langshaw: And whether that's through a writing group or beta readers, um, reader in a relatively safe space, I think they are really, really healthy.
• 36:41
  Tom Langshaw: That still is being part of a community of mm-hmm hmm.
• 36:44
  Tom Langshaw: That also is somewhat, uh, that somewhat preempts what a relationship with an agent and a publisher would be like as well.
• 36:54
  Tom Langshaw: So it's good preparation.
• 36:56
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 36:56
  Natasha Rai: And it's also helpful because if you are asking somebody to read your work, you are getting yourself how it's landing.
• 37:02
  Natasha Rai: Because if you're writing for yourself, great.
• 37:04
  Natasha Rai: That's totally different to writing for an intended audience or someone you have in mind.
• 37:08
  Natasha Rai: So,
• 37:09
  Tom Langshaw: exactly right.
• 37:09
  Tom Langshaw: And a lot of, uh, it's, it's fair for a lot of editors to cop this criticism.
• 37:15
  Tom Langshaw: I think quite often editors are good at identifying when something isn't working, but their solutions may not necessarily be right.
• 37:24
  Tom Langshaw: And that's because you as the writer know this world inside out.
• 37:27
  Tom Langshaw: You've built it up brick by brick.
• 37:29
  Tom Langshaw: Mm
• 37:29
  Natasha Rai: mm
• 37:29
  Tom Langshaw: And I do think just having that experience in, in different settings, maybe more informal settings like a, a writer's group can helpful in, if not point exactly towards how you fix the problem, pointing out where those problems might lie and, and being receptive to hearing that.
• 37:51
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 37:52
  Natasha Rai: Have you ever wanted to write.
• 37:54
  Tom Langshaw: No, particularly since I started editing, so much of my day is reading and as I say, I still have the capacity to read for pleasure.
• 38:05
  Tom Langshaw: Outside of that, that the thought of writing alongside it, I don't, I think I just don't have the capacity for it mentally.
• 38:12
  Tom Langshaw: Um, but also I think I really like work on this side of things.
• 38:16
  Tom Langshaw: I really like the behind the scenes aspect of the work.
• 38:20
  Tom Langshaw: I really like having those collaborative relationships, but I've never, no, no, not since maybe, no, I don't think I've really written anything since my honest thesis that's of any kind of,
• 38:36
  Natasha Rai: so given that you're reading so much new material, what are like some really common mistakes that you come across from like, especially emerging writers who are submitting?
• 38:48
  Tom Langshaw: So I would say the.
• 38:51
  Tom Langshaw: It's easier for me to speak to the common errors in pitching rather than the manuscripts, because the manuscripts are often doing so many different things that it's hard to speak generally, but what I can do is speak to common errors I see in pitching.
• 39:03
  Tom Langshaw: Mm-hmm.
• 39:04
  Tom Langshaw: I mean, number one, and it amazed me how often this would happen at both error, but starting a pitch letter already of publishing workers are women.
• 39:15
  Tom Langshaw: Um, huge.
• 39:16
  Tom Langshaw: No-no.
• 39:16
  Tom Langshaw: And it goes without saying, but you'd be surprised how often that happens.
• 39:20
  Tom Langshaw: Oh gosh.
• 39:21
  Tom Langshaw: So don't do that, but also do your research about the publisher.
• 39:25
  Tom Langshaw: I think sometimes people don't realize how obvious it is that they've done a copy paste job across picture and agents.
• 39:32
  Tom Langshaw: Mm.
• 39:33
  Tom Langshaw: Um, so being able to tailor the messaging a little bit based on some of the books that the publishing house has published or.
• 39:41
  Tom Langshaw: Their position within the market, the way that you pitch to the largest commercial house is gonna be quite different from an indie, for example, but also maybe a book doesn't belong at every publisher and there's a reason for that.
• 39:54
  Tom Langshaw: Finding out where the best fit could be to start with, um, can really help.
• 40:00
  Tom Langshaw: And likewise with agents, actually, I always say if you're unsure about which agent to pitch, to look at the acknowledgement section of some of your favorite Australian authored works, and they will often mention their agent in the back.
• 40:15
  Tom Langshaw: Um, and, and it can be a book within the same genre, say, but it also can just be a book that you admire.
• 40:22
  Tom Langshaw: A lot of agents work across different genres.
• 40:24
  Tom Langshaw: Yes.
• 40:25
  Tom Langshaw: Mm-hmm.
• 40:25
  Tom Langshaw: And, and some will quite directly say whether or not they're accepting as within a particular genre that you're writing in.
• 40:33
  Tom Langshaw: Um, I also quite regularly take pitches at.
• 40:39
  Tom Langshaw: The Society of Authors runs all literary Oh yes.
• 40:42
  Natasha Rai: Dating, yeah.
• 40:43
  Tom Langshaw: Event a few times a year.
• 40:45
  Tom Langshaw: So I've done those for a few years now.
• 40:47
  Tom Langshaw: And they are really good at preparing writers to give a succinct pitch that touches on most of the elements a publisher wants upfront.
• 40:59
  Tom Langshaw: And they help you prioritize the information as well.
• 41:01
  Tom Langshaw: So they will let you know that a publisher wants to hear about the genre that you're writing in the word count, the comp titles, which I think is always an interesting thing.
• 41:13
  Tom Langshaw: And we can talk about that for a moment here.
• 41:15
  Tom Langshaw: Hmm, please.
• 41:17
  Tom Langshaw: So comp titles are comparative comparison titles.
• 41:20
  Tom Langshaw: Um, so they're books that you could see yours sitting alongside on books still bookstore shelves, essentially.
• 41:27
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 41:28
  Tom Langshaw: So whether they're doing a thing in terms of genre, say, um, and I think a publish.
• 41:37
  Tom Langshaw: An agent doesn't necessarily need your comp to be perfectly accurate.
• 41:43
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 41:45
  Tom Langshaw: But what they are looking for is that you've thought about writing for a readership and that you've thought about the market to some degree, and that you've thought about the process of professionally published work, which means it will have a cover, it will have a marketing campaign that leads it into a particular direct.
• 42:05
  Tom Langshaw: And so I think comp titles are, I often am frustrated by them because I think they can be quite off limiting in terms of what the industry continues to put out there.
• 42:17
  Tom Langshaw: And I think a lot of publishers feel the same about it, but they are a useful shorthand within different departments within a publishing house.
• 42:25
  Tom Langshaw: But then sales team goes to speak to booksellers.
• 42:27
  Tom Langshaw: They're a really useful shorthand as well.
• 42:29
  Tom Langshaw: So they are a bit of a necessary evil of the industry.
• 42:32
  Tom Langshaw: And so.
• 42:34
  Tom Langshaw: Leading with those comp titles in a pitch can be really helpful because a lot of writers who are maybe just starting out, I often see the refrain in pitch letters of this is like nothing out there that you've ever seen, or I've written this entirely for myself.
• 42:51
  Tom Langshaw: And those maybe true, but also as a publisher wanting to enter a collaborative creative process with you are not so helpful.
• 43:00
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 43:01
  Natasha Rai: And so maybe if you are playing with form or genre or something that is fairly new, it might be a good idea to then find like, you know, Jane Harper meets whatever.
• 43:13
  Tom Langshaw: Absolutely.
• 43:13
  Tom Langshaw: You can find a meeting point of two different comparisons.
• 43:16
  Tom Langshaw: Or you could even just say literary experimentation.
• 43:20
  Tom Langshaw: Reminiscent of Nice.
• 43:22
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah.
• 43:22
  Tom Langshaw: These two novels.
• 43:23
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah.
• 43:23
  Tom Langshaw: And I think that will give a sense for say, the playfulness of the work, um, or its satirical, bent, or, um.
• 43:33
  Tom Langshaw: It's darkness or whatever it is.
• 43:35
  Tom Langshaw: Mm.
• 43:36
  Tom Langshaw: Tonally sometimes, um, or in terms of ambition, pumps can lead you in those directions rather than just being, rather than just directly mapping onto what you're trying to do.
• 43:48
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 43:49
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 43:50
  Natasha Rai: That's really, that's really, really good.
• 43:51
  Natasha Rai: That's really useful because I know I've struggled in the past with comp titles, um, and I ended up kind of doing that, this, this at meets this because that felt Yeah.
• 44:02
  Natasha Rai: The most.
• 44:03
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 44:03
  Tom Langshaw: Um, yeah.
• 44:04
  Tom Langshaw: Which I think often people do, and that's, that's quite helpful too.
• 44:07
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 44:08
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 44:09
  Natasha Rai: And so in, you know, we've talked about emerging writers.
• 44:11
  Natasha Rai: Have you come across things that may be more established writers in terms of mistakes or, yeah, like even like people looking for their publishing deal for their second or third books.
• 44:21
  Tom Langshaw: Mm-hmm.
• 44:23
  Tom Langshaw: I think, um, the main mistake I see is people not remembering that it's a small industry and.
• 44:30
  Tom Langshaw: You don't wanna burn bridges because everyone talks, and that's not just publishers, but festival programmers and booksellers all book and, and you order your many years, um, to work within this industry for better and worse.
• 44:49
  Tom Langshaw: And I'm not saying that's necessarily always a good setup and but that's
• 44:54
  Natasha Rai: right now the way it is,
• 44:55
  Tom Langshaw: right?
• 44:55
  Tom Langshaw: It is the way it is.
• 44:56
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah.
• 44:56
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah.
• 44:56
  Tom Langshaw: Um, and I think just maybe by extension be a marathon, not a sprint.
• 45:03
  Tom Langshaw: Publishing is a really long game and success, whatever it means to you may take a long time to fully realize.
• 45:12
  Tom Langshaw: Um, and this is maybe a bit of a tangent, I think there can be a temptation to follow trends and try different things like a TikTok or, and trying to grow an audience and readership that way.
• 45:29
  Tom Langshaw: Um, but I think if it's not authentic, it probably won't work.
• 45:33
  Tom Langshaw: You need to, there's a real, you need to have a commitment to really see these people have to be connecting with the work that you're doing.
• 45:42
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 45:42
  Natasha Rai: Very true.
• 45:43
  Natasha Rai: Speaking of trends, what are you noticing right now in the industry in Australia?
• 45:48
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, I mean it's,
• 45:51
  Tom Langshaw: the trend is a bit of a dispiriting one, which is, it's been a really difficult couple of years.
• 45:57
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 45:58
  Natasha Rai: Uh,
• 45:58
  Tom Langshaw: with the economy being in the state it's been in.
• 46:02
  Tom Langshaw: Mm-hmm.
• 46:03
  Tom Langshaw: And I mean, I have a particular agenda here.
• 46:06
  Tom Langshaw: Having worked at an independent publisher that, that now, and now working for a larger but still independent publisher.
• 46:15
  Tom Langshaw: Last year we saw two other independent houses be swallowed up by Yes.
• 46:21
  Tom Langshaw: Multinational corporate publishers.
• 46:24
  Tom Langshaw: I think that's.
• 46:26
  Tom Langshaw: A broader industry trend that's worrying me in the landscape right now is having authors and agents having fewer publishers to submit to and fewer independent publishers particularly.
• 46:39
  Tom Langshaw: And I think there are some emerging conversations around how we have quite a resilient, independent book selling sector in Australia, certainly compared to the US and the uk.
• 46:50
  Tom Langshaw: Mm.
• 46:51
  Tom Langshaw: And hopefully that remains the case for many years to come, and I think there are increasing conversations being had around how independent publishers and booksellers can support each other.
• 47:02
  Tom Langshaw: Sure.
• 47:02
  Tom Langshaw: Um, I, I mean, look, in terms of, in terms of book trends, I think there have been a few like recession indicators in the world of books.
• 47:14
  Tom Langshaw: So often AIST fiction is a really big indicator.
• 47:19
  Tom Langshaw: Um, we've seen.
• 47:22
  Tom Langshaw: And again, this is speaks so generally as to almost, yeah, yeah, be useful.
• 47:25
  Tom Langshaw: But fiction sales have been rising nonfiction less so.
• 47:30
  Tom Langshaw: And I think that's an interesting, that is interesting in print at least.
• 47:33
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah.
• 47:33
  Tom Langshaw: That is the case.
• 47:34
  Tom Langshaw: Um, so I mean that's something interesting to watch.
• 47:38
  Tom Langshaw: We've also, even just the last few months there's this cozy coloring trend and we've seen be, become a thing.
• 47:48
  Tom Langshaw: So I mean, a lot of these developments speak to people seeking out comfort at a time when the world is feeling particularly difficult and volatile.
• 48:00
  Tom Langshaw: And I guess that's no surprise really.
• 48:04
  Tom Langshaw: Um, but I hope that the market shifts and I think there are some potentially promising signs that it would.
• 48:14
  Tom Langshaw: But yeah, certainly preserving independent publishing in Australia, um, is.
• 48:21
  Tom Langshaw: Something that I feel
• 48:22
  Natasha Rai: quite passionate about.
• 48:23
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 48:24
  Natasha Rai: And you know, there's that mate you mentioned and you also very, um, helpfully good advice on pictures.
• 48:32
  Natasha Rai: Is there any advice or tips that you can give to emerging writers in terms of the manuscript level or the work itself?
• 48:41
  Tom Langshaw: I think it can be a difficult balance.
• 48:45
  Tom Langshaw: Sometimes I hear pictures from authors who, and I know I just said I want an author to have ideally received some form of feedback before they submit.
• 48:56
  Tom Langshaw: But it's a fine balance because I also get authors sometimes pitched to me and they say of edits and I've engaged preve feedback and I do think you run the risk of over script sometimes.
• 49:09
  Tom Langshaw: So I think it, you know, there's a happy medium between those two, between never having been read, but also having reworked 10 times over.
• 49:16
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah.
• 49:17
  Tom Langshaw: I.
• 49:19
  Tom Langshaw: I mean, I think for fiction, so much of it comes out to voice and character and that's, that's what I'm really looking for, that standout voice.
• 49:27
  Tom Langshaw: Um, I also think, and I know I've just spoken about trends, but I do think trend chasing quite often doesn't work.
• 49:36
  Tom Langshaw: 'cause again, people feel the inauthenticity of that and publishing is a long game and you are making your name in a particular genre or sub-genre.
• 49:46
  Tom Langshaw: Mm-hmm.
• 49:48
  Tom Langshaw: You may get diminishing returns on that.
• 49:50
  Tom Langshaw: Well, I
• 49:50
  Natasha Rai: was gonna say,'cause it is such a long process that by the time you think, oh, that's quite hot right now, I'm gonna write something like that, by the time you might get a deal two, three years down the track, so.
• 49:59
  Tom Langshaw: Exactly.
• 50:00
  Tom Langshaw: And is that what you want to be doing longer term?
• 50:01
  Tom Langshaw: If you're actually passionate about something else entirely.
• 50:04
  Tom Langshaw: Mm.
• 50:05
  Tom Langshaw: Then a publisher may have a certain expectation that you would continue in your lane for Yeah.
• 50:10
  Tom Langshaw: The next few books at least.
• 50:12
  Tom Langshaw: So how do you.
• 50:15
  Tom Langshaw: How do you manage that over the long term?
• 50:16
  Tom Langshaw: I think thinking strategically at times about what you really want to be doing
• 50:20
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 50:20
  Tom Langshaw: From the outset is important.
• 50:23
  Natasha Rai: So Tom, would you ever like, take a gamble or be interested in, in a manuscript that say, had a very strong voice and really good characterization, but might be not as strong, let's say, polite or structure, would you like, do you have that eye or do you use that kind of thinking of, you know what, there's so many good elements in this will get there and I'm willing to take the risk by take, you know, doing this work.
• 50:46
  Tom Langshaw: I think quite often that internal negotiation for a publisher, it does come down to how passionate you are about the project and there are some real passion picks that you really want to drive through an acquisitions beating.
• 50:59
  Tom Langshaw: And you feel like even if a team doesn't fully see the vision here I do and I wanna really, I wanna really back it.
• 51:06
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah.
• 51:06
  Tom Langshaw: So that does happen every so often.
• 51:08
  Tom Langshaw: I think as, as a publisher, you have to be very smart about.
• 51:12
  Tom Langshaw: And you also have to acknowledge the time to effort ratio involved with a work like that.
• 51:22
  Tom Langshaw: So you wouldn't wanna be doing that for every book that you are Sure.
• 51:25
  Tom Langshaw: Commissioning in a calendar year, but you certainly could do it say a couple of times.
• 51:31
  Tom Langshaw: Mm.
• 51:31
  Tom Langshaw: If you really see it then and you see that you are the right editor to get it there, the author is on board with that, then could do that work over mul, multiple structural.
• 51:42
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 51:43
  Natasha Rai: And does it matter to you if somebody has had anything published, like short pieces or anything, like, does that count for you?
• 51:51
  Tom Langshaw: Oh, I think particularly for more literary writers, someone has built up a literary resume of sorts by submitting to being published, even being shortlisted, winning literary prizes in literary magazine say, or different, um, different literary platforms.
• 52:12
  Tom Langshaw: That can be great.
• 52:14
  Tom Langshaw: And I, I often say to writers to lead with that because it shows that your work is being recognized and received well.
• 52:22
  Tom Langshaw: Um, so no, I don't think it's a hindrance.
• 52:26
  Tom Langshaw: It can quite often be a help.
• 52:29
  Tom Langshaw: And as to whether, I mean, say someone's self-published a work before, I don't think that necessarily is, unless the book has totally taken the world by storm.
• 52:39
  Tom Langshaw: And then there's, I mean, even then that's not a bad thing actually.
• 52:43
  Tom Langshaw: Mm-hmm.
• 52:44
  Tom Langshaw: But I think sometimes if you're wanting to launch them as a day, um, then, you know, potentially there's kind of a, a, a question around how you do that.
• 52:52
  Tom Langshaw: If they've have self-published.
• 52:54
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah.
• 52:54
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah.
• 52:55
  Tom Langshaw: Um, but no, I don't think it is necessarily an issue.
• 52:59
  Natasha Rai: So, is Pantera Press currently open for submissions?
• 53:03
  Tom Langshaw: I knew you would ask this and I should have come prepared with a better answer.
• 53:08
  Tom Langshaw: I don't think at the moment we are, but I know that's only because.
• 53:12
  Tom Langshaw: There's an ongoing conversation within Hardie Grant, um, about how we're setting up submissions across our multiple divisions and a bit of a watch this space answer.
• 53:22
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 53:23
  Natasha Rai: So for people listening, just keep checking, right?
• 53:25
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, I think so.
• 53:26
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 53:27
  Tom Langshaw: Keep checking the website.
• 53:28
  Tom Langshaw: We'll, at some point,
• 53:30
  Natasha Rai: update, and you will also might be next year doing some of those a SA speed dating things again.
• 53:36
  Tom Langshaw: Yes, and I also like recently did a pitching session with the Emerging Writers Festival.
• 53:43
  Tom Langshaw: Um, so I'm often popping up at different
• 53:45
  Natasha Rai: pictures.
• 53:46
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 53:46
  Natasha Rai: So people should just keep an eye on those websites and those sites to get info.
• 53:50
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah, and I think even if they don't lead to an offer or a deal.
• 53:56
  Tom Langshaw: Their invaluable professional experience to be Oh, for sure.
• 54:00
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah.
• 54:00
  Tom Langshaw: In front of an agent.
• 54:01
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah.
• 54:02
  Tom Langshaw: Or a publisher pitching a book.
• 54:03
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 54:04
  Natasha Rai: And even if you get some feedback around this needs a bit more work, or, you know, think about that.
• 54:09
  Natasha Rai: That's huge.
• 54:10
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 54:10
  Natasha Rai: That's huge.
• 54:11
  Natasha Rai: Um, so final question, hopefully a bit of a fun one.
• 54:15
  Natasha Rai: Uh, what have been your favorite reads this year, including any debuts?
• 54:19
  Natasha Rai: I find it so I know
• 54:21
  Tom Langshaw: it's so hard.
• 54:22
  Tom Langshaw: I find it so hard to answer, not least because I am not good at tracking my reading in any way.
• 54:29
  Tom Langshaw: And so I often answer my default answer is the last book I read.
• 54:34
  Tom Langshaw: And in this case it was a really good book, but it's also not a particularly, uh, interesting answer maybe.
• 54:42
  Tom Langshaw: But I read Hamlet by Maggie O'Farrell and I love that book.
• 54:47
  Tom Langshaw: It was my first time reading Maggie O'Farrell, and I'm reading it in part because I will be seeing.
• 54:54
  Tom Langshaw: The film when it comes out.
• 54:55
  Tom Langshaw: Oh, yes.
• 54:55
  Tom Langshaw: Mm-hmm.
• 54:56
  Tom Langshaw: And I wanted to read the novel first, of course.
• 54:58
  Tom Langshaw: Mm-hmm.
• 54:58
  Tom Langshaw: And I was, I think maybe structurally, I think there's a conversation around how meandering the book is at times, but I think she immerses you in that world successfully, that it doesn't matter.
• 55:10
  Tom Langshaw: And I think it's a beautiful portrait of, Anne Hathaway in particular.
• 55:15
  Tom Langshaw: Um, but the thing that makes the book for me is the last 10 to 15 pages, the final scene are so indelibly marked in my mind now that it's, it's so, and I'm really interested'cause it's quite an interior moment, that final moment in the novel.
• 55:32
  Tom Langshaw: I, I've heard that the film has this resonant ending, but I don't quite know how they're gonna translate that.
• 55:39
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 55:40
  Tom Langshaw: Um, so anyway, I, I really enjoyed Hamnet
• 55:43
  Natasha Rai: is my answer to that question.
• 55:44
  Natasha Rai: Oh, that, okay then.
• 55:45
  Natasha Rai: No, thank you.
• 55:45
  Natasha Rai: I love, I'm I'll read anything through.
• 55:47
  Natasha Rai: Right.
• 55:47
  Natasha Rai: So I'm very happy with that answer.
• 55:51
  Natasha Rai: Did you, did you love Hamnet as well?
• 55:52
  Natasha Rai: I loved it.
• 55:53
  Natasha Rai: I absolutely loved it.
• 55:54
  Natasha Rai: Um, but I'm a huge Mag a Farrell fan, so yeah.
• 55:59
  Natasha Rai: Did you read, um, oh, we can cut this out if you say no, but, um, did you read Charlotte McConaghy
• 56:05
  Tom Langshaw: Wild Dark Shore?
• 56:06
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah, I did.
• 56:06
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah.
• 56:07
  Tom Langshaw: What'd you think of it?
• 56:08
  Natasha Rai: I loved it.
• 56:09
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah, I loved it too because I've read all three of hers and I think same.
• 56:12
  Tom Langshaw: Yeah, this was the most successful for me.
• 56:14
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 56:14
  Natasha Rai: Like,
• 56:15
  Tom Langshaw: I mean, I love all of her novels, but this felt the most fully realized and the most,'cause she obviously marries genre plotting with, like, it kinda has that mystery thriller edge to her and the romance subplot as well with, with literary prose.
• 56:34
  Tom Langshaw: And I think it does the best job of that.
• 56:36
  Tom Langshaw: It's, it's stunning.
• 56:37
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, I agree.
• 56:39
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 56:39
  Natasha Rai: Um, so even though I already said final question, this is the final, final question, books that are coming out with Pantera next year that you're really excited about.
• 56:47
  Tom Langshaw: Oh, cut this silence.
• 56:51
  Natasha Rai: Cut
• 56:51
  Tom Langshaw: to
• 56:51
  Natasha Rai: silence.
• 56:53
  Tom Langshaw: I've gotta, yeah.
• 56:54
  Tom Langshaw: I mean, I'm, the tricky thing about my job sometimes is I'm working in so many different timelines.
• 56:59
  Tom Langshaw: Yes, yes.
• 56:59
  Tom Langshaw: I'm kind of not sure where we are and where the calendar year for 2026 begins.
• 57:07
  Tom Langshaw: So let me just have a quick think about which month
• 57:13
  Natasha Rai: we're in October.
• 57:14
  Tom Langshaw: Yes.
• 57:16
  Tom Langshaw: I have an answer.
• 57:17
  Tom Langshaw: Oh, yay.
• 57:17
  Tom Langshaw: Okay.
• 57:18
  Tom Langshaw: Okay.
• 57:18
  Tom Langshaw: So I have a, a fiction answer and a nonfiction answer to this question.
• 57:21
  Tom Langshaw: Fantastic.
• 57:22
  Tom Langshaw: So, a novel I'm excited about is one I'm that my colleague Lex is publishing for the Pan Terrace.
• 57:29
  Tom Langshaw: Um, Sasha Wesley is an author from WA and I know Alexis been her for quite some time and her new novel releasing in April, who made it Oxford in the 1920, A Secret Society of Women.
• 57:48
  Tom Langshaw: Basically stealing books from libraries and, and like band books at that.
• 57:51
  Tom Langshaw: So it's this, and the main character is from Australia.
• 57:56
  Tom Langshaw: And there there's another character also not from the uk.
• 57:59
  Tom Langshaw: So there's this slightly feminist, anti-colonial take on knowledge and who gets to own knowledge and control the production of knowledge.
• 58:10
  Tom Langshaw: Um, but it's also just a very charming, evocative story of a fish out of water, an Australian in Oxford.
• 58:18
  Tom Langshaw: And, um, yeah, I, I really enjoy that one.
• 58:22
  Tom Langshaw: Um, on the nonfiction side, we are publishing a memoir called Juicy by a writer called Shari Joseph, who is part of the sweatshop ey movement out of Western Sydney.
• 58:34
  Tom Langshaw: Mm-hmm.
• 58:34
  Tom Langshaw: And Shari has written this really bold generation defining work around, so she, in her early thirties.
• 58:45
  Tom Langshaw: Realized that the script that had been set out for her, particularly around marriage and motherhood, was most likely not going to be her path for various reasons.
• 58:55
  Tom Langshaw: And she had to reimagine what adulthood would look like.
• 58:59
  Tom Langshaw: And it's a memoir, but it's also partly a manifesto about the juicy life and being able to extract the juice and the joy from life even when all your expectations have been.
• 59:12
  Tom Langshaw: So part of that is she goes on this amazing trip to Europe where she, she, she writes beautifully in this very, and I mean this in a complimentary way, this eat, pray, love way about travel and about hedonism and, and then coming back to Australia and the joy of in community, being an auntie figure.
• 59:38
  Tom Langshaw: And it's an amazing, it's really wow.
• 59:42
  Tom Langshaw: Really powerful and.
• 59:45
  Tom Langshaw: I'm really excited to see it continue to take shape.
• 59:48
  Tom Langshaw: Worried edits at the moment.
• 59:50
  Tom Langshaw: And I know she's working away at it, but it's um, it's a great one.
• 59:54
  Natasha Rai: Those both, both them sound so good.
• 59:57
  Natasha Rai: Thank you.
• 59:58
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, we're very excited about them.
• 1:00:00
  Natasha Rai: Um, so Tom, thank you so much for taking the time.
• 1:00:02
  Natasha Rai: I know you've been really busy, so I really appreciate and thank you for all your excellent advice.
• 1:00:08
  Natasha Rai: Oh, thanks for having me, Tash.
• 1:00:13
  Natasha Rai: Having reflected on my chat with Tom Langshaw, I'm setting a couple of intentions, uh, for writers out there with projects.
• 1:00:25
  Natasha Rai: So Tom, uh, talked about how important voice is and how he and many other publishers usually read the first 50 pages.
• 1:00:33
  Natasha Rai: So if you look at your work, especially the first 50 pages, checkout.
• 1:00:39
  Natasha Rai: What your voice sounds like.
• 1:00:40
  Natasha Rai: Check out your characters.
• 1:00:41
  Natasha Rai: Check out your protagonist, check out your antagonist and see if the voice is strong.
• 1:00:46
  Natasha Rai: And a few ways to do that is you can read them out loud and see how it sounds out loud if you're struggling between telling and showing, because that is something that people talk about a lot.
• 1:00:59
  Natasha Rai: Write some scenes.
• 1:01:01
  Natasha Rai: Uh, both in both ways.
• 1:01:02
  Natasha Rai: So write it telling and write it showing and see what works better for you.
• 1:01:08
  Natasha Rai: The other thing that Tom talked about is, uh, having the right fit for your work in terms of publishers and agents.
• 1:01:16
  Natasha Rai: So he recommended you could look at the acknowledgement sections of books to see agents that, um, writers may have thanked.
• 1:01:26
  Natasha Rai: The other way you can do it is to go onto agents' websites and have a look at the writers that they represent.
• 1:01:32
  Natasha Rai: Um, also you can go into your local bookshop.
• 1:01:35
  Natasha Rai: Pick up your favorite titles and have a look at who publishes them.
• 1:01:39
  Natasha Rai: If you want to submit direct directly to publishers, of course, a less intensive way is to go on different websites and check out the titles that publishers do publish.
• 1:01:50
  Natasha Rai: And lastly, I think reading widely.
• 1:01:52
  Natasha Rai: Um, if you're somebody who reads widely already, great.
• 1:01:55
  Natasha Rai: Um, I know that it can be sometimes difficult to read outside a specific genre if that is your love, and that's totally fine.
• 1:02:01
  Natasha Rai: But see if you can every now and then set yourself a little challenge.
• 1:02:05
  Natasha Rai: That may be one different type of book per month or something like that that you might want to read, just to see things like story and voice and structure and see how other people might do that.
• 1:02:18
  Natasha Rai: Thanks for listening.
• 1:02:24
  Tina Strachan: Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast.
• 1:02:26
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• 1:02:33
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• 1:02:35
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