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Book Club: Cult Girls · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: I'm welcome to Stuff'll Ever Tell You production of iHeartRadio,
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: and welcome to another edition of book Club. Quick content
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: warning before we get into this, we are going to
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  Speaker 2: talk about controlling religions, patriarchy and religions, bad stuff and religions,
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: yeast trauma, religious drama, cr past religious drama episodes, and
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: are episodes on women and cults. Also, this is a
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: new book. It came out in twenty twenty two, so spoilers.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: So yeah, we've been we've been really going in for
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: the new new material and cults. I don't know, I know,
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: it's just a thing.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: We're gonna do it now, guess I guess, so I
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: guess thing.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: Fine, it's it's just a thing we're in. That's all right.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: So this will probably be a shorter one. It's a
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: shorter book. Graphic novels, graphic novel, right, yeah, graphic novel.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: But you never know, we get to going. It could
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: go on and on, but today we are talking about
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: the twenty twenty two graphic novel Cult Girls, written by
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: Natalie Grant and illustrated by Cassandra Bolin. It focuses on
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  Speaker 2: Talia a young woman who was raised as Jehovah's witness
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  Speaker 2: and with the help of a friend, is fading or
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: slowly extricating herself from it, and Talia slowly explores parts
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: of the world she hadn't previously through that traveling, college, work, relationships, motherhood,
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  Speaker 2: all while navigating family and friends that are still j
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: W's Jehovah's witnesses. Talia's story is specifically based on the
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: author's own negative experience with Jehovah's witnesses. And note the
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: author in this story or is focusing on her own time, yes,
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: but also going back to our Religious Trauma mini series,
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: there is the potential for this in so many religions
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: and examples of this in so many religions, So just
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: to keep that in mind, I did want to read
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: the opening excerpt that's introducing what this graphic novel is
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: going to be. Talia and Colt Girls is an inspired
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: story of my life as a young divorce Californian woman
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: who've left. The story also covers the inspiring and support
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: of friends I had along the way, telling how they
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: were able to find new purposes in their lives, specifically
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: how they, like myself, dealt with the reality of being raised, married,
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: and eventually having rejected this particular suppressive religion. It's a
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  Speaker 2: beautiful story filled with hope, romance, female empowerment, and self exploration,
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  Speaker 2: with therapeutic humor throughout the journey. Once you've left a cult,
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: take it from me, flashbacks remain while the root teens
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: and doctrines take some more time to break. Cult Girls
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  Speaker 2: can be appreciated by those who have left a similarly
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  Speaker 2: suppressive religion and or had experience with oppressive relationships and
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: misguided parental control. And then I wanted to include this.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: This is at the end first quote from a review
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: from Trina Robbins. This beautifully illustrated graphic novel pertains to
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: any cult, nicely and clearly written. It's a good, if
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: herring story. And then, Cult Girls, based on a true story,
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: tells the tale of Talia and her friends as they
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: struggle with growing suspicions that their faith is a patriarchal
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: religious cult. It's a story of tremendous courage and female
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: empowerment as Talia and her friends successfully free themselves, told
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: through a feminist lens with cautionary humor. So one thing
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: I did find interesting about this is that it's very
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: as we were talking about this before, it's very informational.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: It's got a lot of facts in it. It feels kind
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: of like a pamphlet, you know. It feels sort of
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: like the opposite of the religious pamphlet. It's sort of like, hey,
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  Speaker 2: you just got that pamphlet, here's this one. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I guess it would be hard not to because you
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: have to understand why what she does is so shocking
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: and or anti to that religion. So she has to
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  Speaker 1: give you excerpts of like this is part of the law,
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: and this is part of what they do, and this
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: is part of the tradition. We kind of talk about
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: that in our episodes of Our Christian Trauma Religious Trauma,
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: because I talk about my own experiences and there's a
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: lot I think I was similar to what I had
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: explained what happened with us about like the witnesses and
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: about being called out in the middle of church and
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: being told you can't be a part of like are
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: excommunicated essentially, and you're being told you're no longer a member.
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  Speaker 1: But it doesn't go to the point of like where
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: she talks about like that other people cannot communicate with you,
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: or they would be seen as also a part of
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: that world or whatever world they think. The pants stuff,
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: all of that was very familiar. So even though I
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: did I have, my religion that I grew up in
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  Speaker 1: was very fearful of the Jehovah's witness. And I'm saying
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  Speaker 1: this in a way of like my religion, my church
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  Speaker 1: that I grew up in hated anything except their own
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: point of view, so they believed anything else was blasphemous.
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  Speaker 1: So even like I think I said, this Southern Baptist
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: was like no, as well as like Church of Christ
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: absolutely not Catholics, Oh my god, you know, like as
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: Foreman's Ah, Jehovah's witness, like all of those things, but
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  Speaker 1: they try to revere them in a way. So when
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: we would have friends that would come over that were
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: Jehovah's witness and I would be told, oh, we can't
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  Speaker 1: invite them to birthday parties, and I was like what
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: I remember being told this about a friend and being told, Hey,
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  Speaker 1: this is their their beliefs, don't question it, like you know.
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  Speaker 1: So we were told to be respireful, but like at
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: the same time, my church was like, oh, they're they're
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: not the Good Church. And this not again, not just
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  Speaker 1: the Jehovah's Witness, I mean like every other religion and
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: every other belief, even if it's in the same denomination. Nope, nope, no,
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  Speaker 1: not as good as us, which is very familiar to
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  Speaker 1: her story.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And I didn't really write a plot out
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: for this because it's essentially there's some flashbacks of her
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: as a child with her family. She has a really fun,
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: kind of depressing thing at the beginning where she breaks
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: down the characters with the little bios and it's like
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: her mom has gone through this abuse, her dad is abusive, right,
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: her friends who are what they're going through, and so
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: you do get flashbacks from her childhood, but it's largely
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: her coming to realize through the help of friends, are
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: just kind of growing up and going out to the world, yeah,
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: that this is not a religion that is for her,
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: and dealing with all of that baggage, because when you
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: do grow up in religion, it's hard to shake that off.
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  Speaker 2: It's really really, really difficult. And her like seeing these
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: new things and learning these new things, and throughout is
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: that fear, as you mentioned, if she gets excommunicated, if
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: she gets kicked out. Yeah, then the people in her
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: life who are still Jehovah's witnesses can't talk to her.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: That's it. Like, if they still want to stay in
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: which presumably they do, they do, they can't talk to her,
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  Speaker 2: So that's the end. So she's sort of trying to
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: push it off for as long as she can, and
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: then eventually she does. What's it called she gets announced?
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, the story obviously is kind of her
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: explaining her life. It feels like as she is talking
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: about how different she is and being and we're gonna
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: talk about in the plot of the book, she uh
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: gets into a new relationship and she's like, oh my god,
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to tell them all these things, and
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna sound like such an odd ball, like he's
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: gonna be like, what the hell type of thing. It
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: feels like it is her trying to explain herself in
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: a comedic form in a graphic novel and trying to
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: be like, this is who I am, this is why
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: I am this way, so here you go, which I
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: think a lot of people would be like, yeah, that's
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: exactly what I went through as well. On a deeper level,
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: like she talks about at one point never seen a
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: rated R movie. So every time he'd be like, have
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: you watched this? Have you wish She's like, no, I
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: don't even know what that is. I don't know what
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  Speaker 1: that means. I don't know you like trying to explain
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: her like this is why I'm so different, let me
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  Speaker 1: show you. And I feel like this was her kind
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: of ode to herself and others around her, her newfound family,
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: like this is who I am. Uh so, here you go,
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: good luck yea, and her like first steps out into
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  Speaker 1: publishing that and revealing herself yes.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: Yes, because it's kind of broken down like that. It's
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: kind of broken down like R rated movie travel, like
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  Speaker 2: you know, themes like that, and having a short scene
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  Speaker 2: that demonstrates, oh, this is why I wasn't I'd never
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: experienced that or I felt like I was being strange
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: around that or something. And yet so she gets in,
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  Speaker 2: She finds friends that find kind of solace in each other.
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  Speaker 2: Then she finds this relationship, and then eventually she gets
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: a job, She goes to college, she has a baby,
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: or she's about to have a baby. She finds out
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  Speaker 2: she's pregnant. But yeah, the plot is essentially her balancing
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: wanting to keep the people still in religion in her life,
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: but wanting to also leave that behind and move on
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: and do these other things. So yeah, with that, oh,
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  Speaker 2: I would say probably one of the biggest themes is
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: kind of you you're controlling family and your controlling religion
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: and growing up in that. So in this case, she
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: would be called a fader. And those are people that
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: try to fade out of this religion without a formal announcement,
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: because again, if you get the announcement, that's it. You
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: can appeal and you can like try to get back in,
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: but you try to avoid it. And I do think
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: this is not unique to Jehovah's witnesses. We've talked about
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: this before, but I do think it was interesting the
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: sort of understanding that people were all trying to cheat
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: the system in some way and or like people just
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: weren't following the rules in private that they were saying
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: in public right.
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  Speaker 1: Right, And it was obviously like more women than men
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: that were being being called out, which was funny because
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: they couldn't talk in the church. Yeah, which is yeah,
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: that's with a lot of religions. We talked about that before.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: The misogyny in religions in general, and this is no
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: different from almost all westernized religions.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and it is true that this is and
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: here we're talking about her experience specifically, was a very
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: intense experience in terms of the ways they try to
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: keep you in of the like loss of family of
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: friends if you leave the being isolated. Perhaps this is
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: like all you know, the only community you know, And
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: that's something we've talked about before on perhaps not the
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: same scale, but in a lot of places, being a
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: part of the church is important, like that is where
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: you get your community, Where you get your community or
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: what have you. So to have that just cut off
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: and have everybody sort of judge you, especially in like
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: a small town, because there was a lot of scenes
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: of her like walking around and there'd be people like
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: whispering behind their hands as she passed, to feel like
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: you lose that, especially if you're in a vulnerable place.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: That's where that's where a lot of cults really work,
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: is if you're in a vulnerable place, and this is
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: where you get your community. Also throughout based on that
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: is she's constantly debating with her family, she's trying to
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: do it in a way that is like I'll show you,
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: you know, there's more to life than this, but also
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: not wanting them to abandon her or isolate her or
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: freak out. I guess, like trying to manage their feelings
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: around it, because they always kept coming back to this
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: religion and it being a constant thing in her life,
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: and when she would talk to them, when she would
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: introduce them to like her new boyfriend for instance, and
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: they're immediately, you've got to get married right now, and
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: you've got to move in and you've got to become
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: a jobes witness or else. Right, it's just a lot
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: to deal with, yes, mm hmmm, Yes, I'm also there
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: was discussion of being forbidden from associating with members of
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: the religion if you leave, and public shaming, public shaming.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: I feel like we talked about this briefly too, But
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: in churches when they do the you know, this person
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: has not been showing up or they've done X, Y
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: and Z, we should pray for them, like very publicly
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: within your community probably, Yeah, calling you out and how
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: that can shame you and keep you in something that
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: you might not want to be in, right mm hmm.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: There is a scene that really illustrates that point. Later
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: when again she's getting called in by the elders, uh,
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: who are questioning why she hasn't been to to so
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: many meetings or what have you, and they're asking her
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: really really inappropriate sexual questions.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: And they're like a group of older dudes and they're
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: just asking her of these questions that they feel perfectly
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: within their right to ask to potentially kick her out.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: Yep, like you were saying, shame her after the fact
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: or during the fact. Because there were many incidents in
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: which the pastor would speak on specific incidents so that
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: they could whisper about who oh who did that?
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: Oh was her right?
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: Which I've seen happen at my own dredge. Yeah, yeah, l.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: Speaking of Yike's, another big theme was the apocalypse, right,
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: which is a big part of a lot of religions. Yes,
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: but it was throughout kind of this idea of, well,
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: the apocalypse is going to come, so why should we
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: care for the land or why should we voach, or
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: why should we do this? Why should I get good grades?
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: Like? Yeah, and historically this is not the only religion
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: that would do this, but they really have specific years.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: So the original founders of the Jehovah's Witness thought that
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: when he started this specific religion and being enlightened to
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: do this religion, that the end of the world was
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: gonna be two years later, which is I think it
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: was like nineteen seventy something in which he was like,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: it's about to be the end of the world. So
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: they often reset, they do, and with that believing that
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: that will fix everything. So there's nothing to fix. It's
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: kind of like that predetermination type of thing, predestined so
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: that it is what it is. So you don't need
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: to help anyone other than they need to find Jesus
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: or not Jesus, they need to be a part of
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: Jehovah's Witness, which is Jesus.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I mean we've talked about this before. This
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: is not unique, as we said to Jehovah's witnesses. But
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: when you're a kid, that idea of apocalypse and like hell,
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: it could really mess you up. I can stay with you.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: Well, there was one specific drawing where the sister is
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: so scared for her her sister and she's picturing her
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: in hell, like she's like, you're so miserable now because
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: you're falling away from Jehovah that all I can imagine
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: is you're going to be unhappier because you're going to
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: be in hell.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yes, And we talked about that in our Religious
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: Trauma series. I've heard that from people like I'm afraid
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: you're going to go to Hell, so I'm trying to
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: help you. Yeah, and I understand. But it's also like, well, yeah,
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: I guess.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: It is what it is, but it's such an odd
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: context because their apocalypse typically like the idea of good deeds, yes,
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: is in other religions and not that Jehovah's witness don't.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: But their good deed is to go out and do
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: their work, do their witnessing and giving out pamphlets while
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: everything else is up to Jehovah. Or this is Jehovah's intent,
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: whether it is being the dude, what was it. I
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: think it was the father when he did all those
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: bad things. He's like, oh, Jehovah handled that. Jehovah.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: That was his like.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: Resolve, or being like looking at boobs and being like,
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: I'm an amazing man and riding the bike. All that
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: is Jehovah. She's like, but what did you think about science?
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Nos Jehovah like all of those in this reference because
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: in the mind of everything's already paid for and for
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: me as a man, and since I haven't been called
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: out by the elders, who are the ultimate authority, I'm fine. Yeah,
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: and apocalypse will take care of all everything essentially, That's
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: what I believe.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah. She was definitely saying that was the
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: vibe was why are we even here? The apocalypse will
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: be better after that, And there was sort of a
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: like self assured almost shot in Freuda of like, well,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: you didn't do what you had to do, so I
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: will be in paradise and you shall be in hill.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. They're very number centric, but she talks about math
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: and she's like, this is not this is not math,
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: and he's like two plus two does not equal the
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: U two of you. I did like that reference.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: I guess this is a good segue into one of
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: the biggest themes of the book. The graphic novel is
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: definitely the patriarchy within religion. There's a quote pretty early
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: on men are better than women. This is something we
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: did talk about in our religious trom episodes. I feel
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: like it comes up often when we speak about religion.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: But all the ways that that manifested in her life
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: and how she witnessed it, and how it had an
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: impact on her self esteem. And one of those things
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: she witnessed was religious authorities who can only be men
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: and get a lot of exceptions to the rules, a
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: lot of men doing wrong and being forgiven by the organization,
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: and then a lot of clear sexism and who gets
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: kicked out and punished, meaning women were much more likely
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: to get punished, whereas men could be like, well, it's
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: Jehovah or whatever.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: It's Jehovah. As well as like the skull argument, women's
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: small heads are smaller and so they are not able
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: to think as broadly like men who are much more intelligent.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: Men are better because of schools. The elder Caleb, who
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: was her brother in law that pete at everyone that
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: was a peeping tom that was doing sexually predatory stuff
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: was an elder. So he was like, no, no, no,
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: you misunderstood.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. There was a lot of infuriating things about
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: the elders in this particular case. And then there was
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: another quote, I could lose my position as an elder
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: if my wife isn't being submissive, So it's it's also
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: you have to do you have to be submissive, you
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: have to do what I tell you. You have to make
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: me look good, even if I am perhaps a peeping tom. Right,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: you are the one that is going to be punished
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: in this or make me look bad, right, not this
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: thing that I did. Right, And going back to that
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: point of what I said earlier, the differences of how
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: women and men are treated and who was forgiven within
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: this organization, there were several instances she pointed out of
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: gay pornography and probably underduraged gay pornography, pedophilia being taught
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: all worldly men. She do drugs and much porn constantly,
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: but she has these instances of them doing it.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Right so much so that that's one of the things
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: that she specializes in real life, like apparently, like she
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: wrote the fact that she works in helping to stand
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: up for children who have been victims by religious predators,
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: like because she's seen she has seen so much of
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: that She's like, absolutely not. And she even talks about
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: the fact that the marriage oftentimes are unequaled, young girls
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: who barely graduated high school if they did, marrying older
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: men and not really having a choice about it. She
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: does mention that briefly, but she got lucky and married
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: a dude that seemed okay but was not compatible with her,
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: and the gay porno was that big, bright shining light.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: Yes of like.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: Oh, as well as I'm stealing all the money.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so she did get married. We didn't mention
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: that she did get married prior to the guy she
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: meets later, who is one of the worldly men, as
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: they're called if you're outside of the religion, one of
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: the worldly men in it. Yeah, it did not go
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: well for multiple reasons, multiple reasons.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: That will be two reasons.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that expands. But yes, also, like I said, this
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: is sort of like a pamphlet. It has a lot
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: of facts in it. It's very it's a great story,
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: but a lot of it is got you know, here's this, factors, this, factors,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: this fact There's some stuff about homophobia in there, there's
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: stuff about racism in there, there is stuff about pedophilia
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: in there, and then there's a lot of discussion around
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: things like abortion. For here's a quote I uds are abortion.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of discussion around sex being sinful and
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: discussing a source of shame, especially for women.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, but at the same time as duty, yes,
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: called it the duties.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: Yes, especially after well definitely after you're married only I
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: should say. But yeah. It was something she was really
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: concerned about because it had been told to her her
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: whole life, and something she had to grapple with with
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: her new partner because that was your going to hell
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: kind of violation. You don't do that right.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: It was also one of those that which again happens
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: to most religions, that they are told that the father
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: continuously says, mary him, marry him before you, before you sin,
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: before you sin, marry him. So that's the solution, like
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: the easy solution for you to have sexes to be married. Yes, yes,
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: so for him, I guess the dude rather than the women,
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: because you know, obviously women have no desire.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: No desire, which does bring us to marriage. That was
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: a big theme, as you said, pushing children, especially women
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: to get married early. I'm saying that like you hear
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: that as a kid, but you weren't like super young
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: to being pushed to get married, yes, and not being
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: allowed to have sex before marriage, not being allowed to
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: move in together before marriage. A lot of gossip around
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: that and what you might have done being pressured too,
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: as you said, put out once married, and also kind
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: of a dowry situation the father definitely later when it's
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: a worldly man, it's like, I can't afford to fay
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: for this. She's like, got it, uh.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: Right, Well, that's kind of like in the tradition that
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: the man pays for the or the wife's family pays
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: for the wedding, which is that tradition instead of like
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: the goats. That was old school biblical ways in itself.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: But yeah, and again as a reminder about the I
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: feel like I may have talked over you about the
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: IUD thing, but any birth control was seen as abortion,
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: Like that needs to be a conversation, and not just IUDs,
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: but like condoms, any kind of preventative measure is abortion
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: and against God's will. A lot of like we were
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: not going to talk about it, but the medical procedures
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: in general. She talks about the blood transfusion as well,
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: and we know that Jehovah's witnesses have that work that
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: they cannot do, that they cannot serve in the military,
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: they cannot vote, all these things because that is worldly things.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: But yes, any kind of preventative birth control immediately know
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: because that is killing of children, as they would.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: Say, yeah, yep. And there's a scene later where after
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: she has sex with Alan, her new boyfriend, which I
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: did love that I feel that the orgasm was represented
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: with fireworks, she realizes she's not on birth control and
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: freaks out and her friends are like, oh, plan B.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: And she didn't know what it was, never heard of it.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: She was like plan B for what?
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: Plan B for what?
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: What plan?
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: Like? Her friend says that it was very much still
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: a part of the Mormon just like what other plans
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: the other plan.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: Right, But that does get to another point we're about
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: to get to about education and how that's controlled as well.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: But yeah, divorce is also a big thing and financial
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: control and abuse around that. So when I was first
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: reading this, there was a thing that was about the
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: marriage fantasy, and I thought it was going to be,
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: you know, like what wedding dress will you get? All
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: that stuff? No, it was how you fantasize about your
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: man marriage ending because you have to have a reason, right,
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: You have to have like a legit reason to get
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: out of the marriage, because you can't just get divorced.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: So people fantasizing about like what if he cheats or
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: what if he does this, and then I won't be
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: shamed for not making this word.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: And I think she talks about the two or more witnesses,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: which is a biblical context, because again my church that
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: I went to, which is not Jehovah's witness used that
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: context as well if you wanted to. They weren't as
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: nosey as this as authoritative, but you can make it
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: authoritative so that people would bring up objections. And this
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: was also a power of control because of a lot
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: of the times it's people who didn't want to be
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: divorced because of whatever shame. And this does not include
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: and I don't see hard talking about it, but I
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: have a feeling it's as similar to that abuse, like
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: only reason accilorating to biblical standards. And I talked about
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: this specifically in our Religious Trauma episode is adultreat But
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: you have to have witnesses, which talked about it's hard
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: to prove because typically two people don't know it, right,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: which is why men can get away with often right.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And also financially, we've talked about that outside of religion,
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of financial abuse, especially if one person
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: is controlling the finances. Often men in situations like this,
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: even if it's not their money, but they're the ones
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: in control, or maybe just financial literacy, because again the
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: author does speak to education in this context and having
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: that being limited about her own experiences being homeschooled. Some
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: of them are funnier than others. Some of them are like, well, funnier,
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: but like not knowing how to connect. She has some
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: awkward situations where she just doesn't know how to socialize.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: But I can see it definitely playing out to if
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: you're getting married so young, many women talk about quitting
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: their jobs once they get married, dropping out of school,
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: then it makes sense to me that there would be
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: issues around money in that relationship and that could keep
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: you in a really abusive situation. And they were also
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: really strict rules around for women behaviors media. As you said,
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: the rated R movies is one food, health relationships, just
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: like every aspect of your life.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: There were rules, yes, and the men picked out the clothes.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't think it.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: Again, we're talking about this in the context of like
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: the graphic novel that she had pointed out, But again,
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: she also does an amazing job with her friendship and
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: showing like different levels, yes, of beliefs as well as
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: her family. So she does a really good job and
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: being able to show that context of like not everyone
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: is like this, and everyone has different parts of what
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: they believe and people who are very cool within the religion.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: Her family just wasn't one of them, right, And I.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: Do think that's a good point, because she shows examples
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: of it not being that. I think she's more pointing
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: out it could be like this, and I saw the
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: instances of it being like this, right. But that brings
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: us to our final point when we like so much friends, Yeah, friendship.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: So her friend Rosa. Rosa's openness about her experience within
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: Jehovah's witness helped open Talia's eyes and kind of open
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: her worlds. They became roommates, and yeah, they just kind
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: of were really there for each other. And it was
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: interesting because it felt like a lot of times when
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: you were reading about the exceptions the men made were
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: oh he has a role rex he really shouldn't. Oh
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: he cheated and he's going to be get off scot free.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: But for them it was like, let's good to grease.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: I love the Christmas segment like I love the first time,
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: and they all went all out and then they're like,
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: oh no, my parents are coming and they're hiding, which yes,
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: again relateab well, not Christmas, but other things that I'm like,
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: I gotta have this, But the fact that the pope
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: two of them are together, and even when Talia is
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: talking about her relationship and Rosa celebrating, but Rosa's like, yeah,
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: I got you, like just being able to have her
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: back in most of the situations when the wedding happens.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: When so the entire thing is Talia trying to not
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: get announced before her wedding so that all of her
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: Jehovah witness friends can attend because they can associate with her,
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: including her family. So she's just like waiting for that,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: but all of her friends are helping her because they're
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: trying to turn all of her friends against her. The
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: elders are like I loved each one of them. I'd like,
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: oh no, we got her back, we got her back.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: It was really like, oh, that's really sweet. Even the
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: one couple who were more involved in the Jehovah's witness
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: but her friend who was still in a really good marriage,
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: it looked like they were actually happy and he was
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: supportive of her instead up for her, but like both
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: of them were like, yeah, I don't know what you're
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: talking about. No, she's doing great, what are you talking about?
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: And then when they did, they also kind of celebrated Christmas,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: but instead of calling it at Christmas Tree, they called
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: it a friendship Greece. But it was it was nice
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: to see all of that. They were really supportive of her,
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: and I'm like, at least she has some good people
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: to have her back.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they all. She kept apologizing and saying, I
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: don't you don't have to risk it, don't worry about it,
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: and they're like, no, we will be there.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: But it it goes back to what I was saying
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: earlier about, you know, destructive religions or cults in general,
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: is if you're alone and you're vulnerable, that's how you
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: get it. They get you, and I think she even
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: has kind of it felt kind of like an aside,
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: but it was about her how her dad got involved,
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: and it was like he lost all of his money,
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: got sued, got in trouble, and then became a Jehovah's
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: witness as opposed to how he makes it sound as
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: though always like which is often the case, often the
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: case for whatever reason. But yeah, her friends, her friends
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: were there for her. I could tell there was a
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: balancing act for her where she was like, especially in
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: a couple of cases, like her sister's children who are
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: being raised in this religion, like trying to show there
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: are other there's more out there than this, but also
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: not trying to scare them off. And so that was
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: present throughout. But it was also interesting to see because
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: at the end you kind of find Rosa in almost
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: the opposite position. But then she meets someone else and
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: they become friends and they talk about turning her experience,
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: at least Rose's experience of organizing, of recruiting of all
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: that stuff into activism into something else, And as you said,
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: it's kind of what the author did with the current
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: work that she does. And it all ends with an
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: image of what Talia found, and it's fulfillment and education
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: and work and love, marriage, travel, friends of baby, happiness, sex,
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: and it's all in these really bright colors. She's really happy,
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: and then on the bottom it's contrasted with like drab
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: colors of all she shed after she left, like apocalypse
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: or creepy man Satan like things like that. So it's
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: just a really nice the way to end it where
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: you see all of this stuff she's discovered and all
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: the stuff she's decided to leave behind.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I do have to point out I feel
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: like one of the because you know, I can't believe
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: anything happy come on. The one of the sadder parts
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: is her mom, Yeah, who had gone through so much,
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: especially because of her dad and losing everything. She lost
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: her house, she lost like some of our health and like,
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: but every time she turns, she's like, but it's Jehovah,
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: Like she cannot let go of that religion to the
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: point that she again has lost so much and no
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: one is willing to help her because it's again Jehovah,
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: and even her like sisters, I've kind of just like
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: accepted that's her fate and no one's seen a problem
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: with that. Her mom very much still being like, remember,
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: I wish you would do all these things, go to meetings,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: go find this person, as if like it had worked
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: out for her, and it had not. It was kind
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: of made me sad, but she was still taking care
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: of her mom and trying to take care of her mom,
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: And I will say that during the wedding, her mom
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: was the most supportive, which I kind of was shocked by.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: I didn't expect that because her dad was so awful. Oh,
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: but because like she was being like she had been
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: so submissive and but it was like, keep me far
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: away from your dad, like that was her one request.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: But her mom being really loving and supportive during her wedding.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, that's sweet, but it's made really
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: sad for her mom.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: It was sad because again, like her dad, despite multiple
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: examples of being a total douchebag, gets to continue to
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: have experience a respect he doesn't deserve and has this
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: access to this community, while her mom is living in
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: a retirement home health home and kind of been ignored
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: and just like yeah, and for her, when you see
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: her at the wedding and she says, you know, keep
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: me as far away from as possible, it makes you
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: think if she never met him. You're seeing her kind
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: of happy and being so supportive of her daughter. It
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: is sad because it makes you wonder if she hain't
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: got married so young because this she was getting pushed
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: to by people in her life who what what her
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: life could have been right.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the hope she's having a better maybe she stepped
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: away particularly maybe she has because one of the conversation
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: pieces again about the patriarchy being the head of this religion,
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: was the fact that women can't really even talk to
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: the men. They're not really supposed to talk one on
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: one or ask for her health.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, again this was based on how she was talking
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: about what she had gone through. Because also this is
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: just a reminder even in denominations, and again my church
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: is a great example, as I talk about that, they
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: all work differently and some are way more intense than others.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: Like I've seen this, there are sex within denominations that
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: are like WHOA that seems really cult like versus what
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: other people have experienced. So there's definitely like that those
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: layers too. So I because I don't know Jehovah's witness personally,
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: like I don't not being people, but the religion in
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: itself and it's practices, I've never gone, so I can't
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: really attest to that. But like in her version, it
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: definitely seemed like an extreme level in itself. So not
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: to say that that's all all Jehovah's witnesses we wouldn't
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: put that as a label, but yeah, I mean to see,
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: what she has presented is fair called.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: Like it is. And I know we keep bringing it
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: back to this, but we did. Samantha largely did a
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: twelve part mini series on religious drama. It was a
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: very long mini series. I do think a lot of religions,
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: especially in the West, are patriarchal, and that you internalize
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: that as a child, and it can take a lot
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: of work to undo so, right, I've seen examples that
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: I in friends of mine in other religions that had
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: similarities to this that you know, I experienced patriarchy for sure,
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: but I saw especially one friend where she would say
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: something she heard in church just like that sounds so
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: basically you asked for you were asking for some help,
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: and they were like, go pray, okay, yeah, which at
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: a certain levelly I see, but at a certain level also,
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: I'm like they need maybe more than that, right, And.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: I think that goes a conversation of like again, the
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: blood transfusion and the refusal of other blood in your system,
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: and because it was it was a huge trial at
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: one point in time when a parent chose not to
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: allow that because it was against their religious beliefs. There
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: was a back and forth like is this neglect? Is
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: this medical neglect? Should we have a conversation of what
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: to do? And cases of where children have died because
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: of this choice. So there's a lot of conversations in
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: that belief of like if this is God's will, Jehovah's will,
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: if this is this, we need to pray about this.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: And we talked about that context and a little bit
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: about prayer within religion, and we talked about that specifically
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: with Christianity on a larger part as in like Protestantism
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: more so than anything else. And that's a big conversation
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: of like where is that line and how much authority
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: does the government have does society have versus the religious
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: morality of it all. So that is a big underlying conversation.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: It is kind it is very scary in itself, and
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: again like the whole level of marrying young, all these
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: conversations about the expectancy so that they immediately at a
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: certain age, whether that's preteen or not, there being seen
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: as future sexual beings to procreate, like they're already like
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: trying to set people up. There was that conversation like
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: so gonna melder Mary an elder she's like eight. Yeah,
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: Like that was like in that context, like she's young.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: I don't think it's eight, but like it's obviously like adolescent,
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: and so that that fact that the community members they
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: already seeing that child as as that instead of being
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: a child.
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: Right yeah. Yeah, And there's also there's so much to
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: talk about here because this made me think about vaccines
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: as well in the whole conversation, because we had to
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: listener right in and say, my parents kept me from
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: getting vaccines and like started their whole at their own
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: organization about why you should get vaccinated unless there's some
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: real reason not to. But yeah, just that can be
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: so hard when you grow up within a certain belief
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: or a certain system to question that. And I imagine
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: this was quite a difficult graphic novel to us, right yeah,
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: So we appreciate all the people who who do that
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: and you know, have dealt with dealt with this and
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: recommend it. It's it's beautifully illustrated too. It's really really it.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: Is really fun. It kind of reminds me of Johnny Bravo, Yes,
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: you know what.
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: Talk because it looks amazing that Yeah, yeah, I see
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: that completely, but it does. It's like it tackles a
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: lot of it feels kind of like our show almost.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: It tackles a lot of like really difficult stuff, but
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: it's colorful and it's fun, and then it has its
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: sad moments, but it's it's just it's very vibrant while
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: giving you a lot of information and also being really honest.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: So yes, go check it out. If you have any
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: thoughts on this, we would love to hear from you.
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: If you have any resources or suggestions, we would also
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: love to get that. You can email us stuff and
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: You mom Stuff at heeartmedia dot com. You can find
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: and TikTok at stuff I'll Never Told You. We're also
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: on YouTube, but we have a t public store and
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: we have a book wherever you get your books. Thanks
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: as always to our super producer Christine, our executive producer,
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: and our contributor Joey. Thank you, and thanks to you
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: for listening. Steffan Never Told You is production of my
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: can check out the heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: reve you listen to your favorite shows,