Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1025 - Dan Pink: The Power of Regret

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#1025 - Dan Pink: The Power of Regret · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
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  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers.
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  Speaker 2: Now, Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson today, a guest
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  Speaker 2: on the podcast that I'm so excited to be able
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  Speaker 2: to speak with. If I was to put together a
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  Speaker 2: list of favorite authors, favorite influencers, people who have done
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  Speaker 2: things that are talk worthy, right at the top of
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  Speaker 2: the list would be a guy by the name of
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  Speaker 2: Daniel Pink. Dan Pink is the author of five New
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  Speaker 2: York Times best sellers, including his latest book, The.
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  Speaker 1: Power of Regret, How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward.
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  Speaker 2: He also wrote a book that almost everyone in the
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  Speaker 2: entire world has read, I'm sure, called Drive, And he
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  Speaker 2: had a book just come out in the last year
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  Speaker 2: or so as well called When He's Prolific.
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  Speaker 1: That's all I can say.
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  Speaker 2: He's had a TV show and national geographic that's been
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  Speaker 2: seen in like one hundred countries, writes for all of
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  Speaker 2: the big publications in the US and around the world,
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  Speaker 2: and has done a whole lot more stuff. And Dan
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  Speaker 2: joins me for a conversation about his brand new book,
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  Speaker 2: The Power of Regret, How Looking Backwood Moves Us Forward. Dan,
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  Speaker 2: thanks for being on the Happy Families podcast. This is
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  Speaker 2: an absolute delight.
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  Speaker 3: I'm glad to be with you justin thanks for having me, So.
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  Speaker 1: Dan, I'm going to show you my phone just here
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  Speaker 1: for a sec.
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  Speaker 2: It's literally gone blank as I picked it up on
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  Speaker 2: the let me find it here. On the twenty fourth
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  Speaker 2: of the fourth twenty twenty one, I wrote this little
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  Speaker 2: note to myself that I wanted to write a book
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  Speaker 2: all about the power of regret. In fact, I've come
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  Speaker 2: up with the opener. I wrote, of all the words
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  Speaker 2: of tongue and pen the saddest star, what could have
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  Speaker 2: been a little couplet. I thought, let's write a book
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  Speaker 2: about regrets, the science of regret, examples of people's regret.
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  Speaker 2: Should we avoid regret? Or is it our best teacher?
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  Speaker 2: I thought, there's something in this. I've got an idea.
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  Speaker 2: I reckon it could be a New York Times bestseller.
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  Speaker 2: And I regret taking so long to get onto it.
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  Speaker 2: But somehow I think that you did a better job
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  Speaker 2: than I would have done.
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  Speaker 3: You know, I wish you would have done. It would
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  Speaker 3: have saved me a lot of grief of writing.
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  Speaker 2: This book, So Dan, so many people say that they
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  Speaker 2: don't have regrets. You've touched on that in the book.
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  Speaker 2: Why do you think they're saying that they don't have
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  Speaker 2: any regrets? And you actually rejected outright, why do you
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  Speaker 2: do that?
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  Speaker 3: Well, let's talk about the baseline first, is that everybody
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  Speaker 3: has regrets. What we know from sixty years of science
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  Speaker 3: in psychology, neuroscience, cognitive science, development of psychology, is that
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  Speaker 3: regret is one of the most common emotions that human
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  Speaker 3: beings have. It's arguably the most common negative emotion that
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  Speaker 3: human beings have. If you don't have regrets, it means
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  Speaker 3: you're probably a five year old, or you have some
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  Speaker 3: brain disorder, or your a sociopath. But everybody has regrets.
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  Speaker 3: So why would people say that right when we know
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  Speaker 3: that everybody has regrets? And I think it's a really
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  Speaker 3: intriguing question justin I think one of them is I
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  Speaker 3: think part of it is that people think that that
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  Speaker 3: is courageous, that that's a sign of courage. I don't
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  Speaker 3: have any regrets. You know, I'm bold, I'm courageous, right.
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  Speaker 3: I think that's one reason. I think another reason is
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  Speaker 3: that people are over indexed on positivity. They think that
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  Speaker 3: the way to lead a good life is to have
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  Speaker 3: only positive emotions. And no negative emotions. And I think
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  Speaker 3: another reason is that we don't know what to do
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  Speaker 3: with our regrets, so it's much easier to ignore than
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  Speaker 3: or bury them. It turns out that we have a
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  Speaker 3: half century of science saying that is a colossally bad idea.
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  Speaker 3: So what I'm trying to do in part in this
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  Speaker 3: book is normalize this emotion of regret because it's normal.
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  Speaker 2: There's a parent on page forty four of the book
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  Speaker 2: who says one of her great regrets is and I quote,
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  Speaker 2: I yelled at my daughter when she was five on
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  Speaker 2: the way to school when she spilled some yogat on
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  Speaker 2: her uniform. I really lated to her, and I've regretted
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  Speaker 2: it ever since. She didn't deserve that. I upset her
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  Speaker 2: so much, and for what a bit of a stain
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  Speaker 2: on her uniform. I will never stop regretting that moment.
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  Speaker 2: I've never yielded her in that way again. So I
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  Speaker 2: learned from that mistake, but I wish I could take
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  Speaker 2: that moment back.
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  Speaker 1: Now. I read that and I thought two things.
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  Speaker 2: Number one, I relate, But number two, if that's the
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  Speaker 2: worst thing she's ever done, she must be a pretty
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  Speaker 2: good mum.
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  Speaker 3: It's an interesting thing about what people regret. Obviously this
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  Speaker 3: and I think that tells us something. Okay, so let's
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  Speaker 3: let's let's probe that just a little bit. Think about
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  Speaker 3: that mom or think about any parent, all right, Think
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  Speaker 3: about all the decisions that you make as a parent.
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  Speaker 3: Think about all the decisions you made as a parent
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  Speaker 3: yesterday or last week or last year. Think about all
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  Speaker 3: the actions you took as a parent yesterday or last
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  Speaker 3: week or last year. Most of them you me, I
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  Speaker 3: don't even remember.
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 3: So if you have an action or a decision or
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  Speaker 3: something that happens to you, and not only do you
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  Speaker 3: remember it, which itself is amazing, but you remember it
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  Speaker 3: and it makes you feel bad, that's a very very
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  Speaker 3: very very strong signal. And so my guess with this person,
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  Speaker 3: and what is it a signal off? It's a signal
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  Speaker 3: of And this is the thing about regret. Regret clarifies
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  Speaker 3: what we value and instructs us on how to do better. Now,
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  Speaker 3: it sounds I did not interview that person. That was
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  Speaker 3: an anonymous entry and among the regrets that I collected,
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  Speaker 3: But my guess is that that person has actually used
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  Speaker 3: that as instruction for the future. But I think the
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  Speaker 3: other thing about it is that it probably raised the
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  Speaker 3: question of what she values. And I think what she
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  Speaker 3: values this kindness not only toward her children, but toward
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  Speaker 3: toward other people. And so in that sense, this negative
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  Speaker 3: feeling is actually incredibly helpful because in this case, it's
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  Speaker 3: a message to this this parent saying, you know what,
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  Speaker 3: I actually value kindness more than I expect, and I've
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  Speaker 3: been falling down on that. I need to be kinder
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  Speaker 3: more broadly. Second, it's offering her instruction about how to
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  Speaker 3: deal with her kids. Now what she could have said,
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  Speaker 3: no regrets, I'll let my kid who cares? All Right,
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  Speaker 3: that's not a good idea. That's not a good idea
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  Speaker 3: because you don't learn of anything from that. And so
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  Speaker 3: now I'll tell you it's also a bad idea. I
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  Speaker 3: yellt up my kid. Oh my god, I am the
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  Speaker 3: worst parent there ever was. I'm going to wallow in
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  Speaker 3: that regret. I'm going to rum it. That's a bad
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  Speaker 3: idea too. What we want to do is we want
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  Speaker 3: to use those regrets as a signal, as information, as data,
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  Speaker 3: enlist them, draw lessons from them, and use those lessons
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  Speaker 3: to move forward.
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  Speaker 2: I want to talk about those lists since in just
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  Speaker 2: to say, but first a little bit of autobiography, if
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  Speaker 2: I can.
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  Speaker 1: My career is built on regret.
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  Speaker 2: Uh early literally early mistakes that I made as a father.
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  Speaker 2: I couldn't be more grateful for my regrets, couldn't be
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  Speaker 2: more grateful for them.
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  Speaker 1: And and in the power of regret.
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  Speaker 2: In your book, you talk a lot about how we
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  Speaker 2: can reframe regret. We can look at what that mom
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  Speaker 2: did and how she, instead of beating herself up, can
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  Speaker 2: say this is a learning opportunity.
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  Speaker 1: How does this reframing work?
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  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, what we I mean, what we want
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  Speaker 3: to do, as I said before, is find the third
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  Speaker 3: way again, don't ignore, don't wilow and confront. Now, how
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  Speaker 3: do we do that? To me, there's a there's a
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  Speaker 3: there's a there's a process that we should go through.
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  Speaker 3: It's it's relatively simple. It is that no one and
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  Speaker 3: it's rooted in science, is that no one ever talks
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  Speaker 3: about it, no one ever, no one ever taught us
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  Speaker 3: how to do it. So the first step, if we
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  Speaker 3: can think of it as three stages, inward outward forward, inward,
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  Speaker 3: outward forward, so inward is your first step, is how
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  Speaker 3: do you reframe how you think of yourself and and
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  Speaker 3: think of the regret. And one of the things that
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  Speaker 3: we see is that when we screw up as parents
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  Speaker 3: or as people or people who are parents, the way
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  Speaker 3: we talk to ourselves is brutal.
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  Speaker 1: It's cruel.
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  Speaker 3: Our self talk is often lacerating. That's a bad idea.
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  Speaker 3: There's no evidence that's effective. What we should be doing
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  Speaker 3: in the face of these mistakes is treating ourselves with
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  Speaker 3: kindness rather than contempt. Recognizing that our mistakes are part
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  Speaker 3: of the human condition. That itself is really important. I've
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  Speaker 3: collected regrets from all over the world. Any regret that
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  Speaker 3: any parent out there has, I got it in my database.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, you know, our regrets are part of the
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  Speaker 3: human condition. The other thing that I think is important
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  Speaker 3: for parents is that when you screw up, when you
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  Speaker 3: make a mistake, that's a moment in your life. It's
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  Speaker 3: not the full measure of your life. That's a moment
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  Speaker 3: in your parenting history. It's not the full definition of
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  Speaker 3: your parenting history. And so when we do that that
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  Speaker 3: inward look frees us up to do the more cognitive
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  Speaker 3: work of making sense of our regret and drawing lessons
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  Speaker 3: from it.
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  Speaker 2: In the book, you talk about at leasting and if
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  Speaker 2: only can you maybe step through those strategies. I feel
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  Speaker 2: like they're just so immensely perfectly practical for what a
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  Speaker 2: parent can do when they blow it, when they lose
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  Speaker 2: it with their kids, or when they're impatient or completely
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  Speaker 2: fail to show up.
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  Speaker 3: So regret is driven powered by something called counterfactual thinking,
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  Speaker 3: that our brains can't imagine events that run counter to
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  Speaker 3: the actual facts. And there are two types of counterfactual thinking.
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  Speaker 3: There is what psychologists call upward counterfactuals, where you imagine
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  Speaker 3: how things could have been better. If only I had
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  Speaker 3: married Edward instead of Frank, my life would be better, right,
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  Speaker 3: so you imagine not things could be better upward counterfactual.
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  Speaker 3: They are also something known as a downward counterfactual, where
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  Speaker 3: you imagine how things could have turned out worse, where
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  Speaker 3: you say, I regret marrying Edward, but at least I
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  Speaker 3: have these two great kids. Okay, so you find the
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  Speaker 3: silver line again. And here's what we know upward counterfactuals.
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  Speaker 3: If only regret is the poster child of upward counterfactor rules.
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  Speaker 3: If only make us feel worse, but help us do
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  Speaker 3: better at least, don't help us do better, But they
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  Speaker 3: help us feel better, and sometimes that's okay, And so
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  Speaker 3: there are times where you actually want to do it,
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  Speaker 3: at least with a regret, just to make yourself feel
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  Speaker 3: better and move on. So you could say something like
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  Speaker 3: the mommy you were talking about before, I regret yelling
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  Speaker 3: at my kid for spilling yogurt on her uniform. But
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  Speaker 3: at least I didn't do that a second time, at
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  Speaker 3: least I didn't escalate it. At least I apologized, and
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  Speaker 3: that can actually mitigate some of the psychological sting.
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  Speaker 2: Dan, if you would have give tempo parents who feel
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  Speaker 2: overwhelmed any advice at all, what would what would it be?
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  Speaker 2: I mean, the role of parenting is it's like Sissyphus
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  Speaker 2: and the Stone right. Every single day we've got to
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  Speaker 2: get up and we've got to do it again. So much,
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  Speaker 2: so much of parenting is correction and direction, so little
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  Speaker 2: time for connection, and we get it wrong because we're
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  Speaker 2: so busy intensifying our parenting efforts. When you think about
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  Speaker 2: all the things that you read and you'll regret survey,
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  Speaker 2: when you think about all the things that like the
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  Speaker 2: real message of the power of regret and you apply
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  Speaker 2: it to what it feels like to be a parent.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, you've got kids yourself, how do you how
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  Speaker 2: do you take that Internet into something that's really useful
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  Speaker 2: as parents are struggling with the every day of parenting.
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  Speaker 3: There are a whole bunch of things justin that people
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  Speaker 3: can do here. So let me offer a few sort
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  Speaker 3: of practical tips. One of them is that it's very
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  Speaker 3: important that we normalize as emotion of regret, one of
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  Speaker 3: the things that we see, especially with adolescents. And you
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  Speaker 3: know this is especially here in the States, I think
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  Speaker 3: maybe less so, but still in Australia. Is some serious
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  Speaker 3: mental health challenges among young people and teenagers around the world,
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  Speaker 3: and I think part of that is that we haven't
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  Speaker 3: equipped them well enough to deal with negative emotions. So
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  Speaker 3: when they feel a negative emotion, because we haven't equipped them,
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  Speaker 3: they look around and say, oh my god, it's like
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  Speaker 3: I'm feeling bad right now. I'm feeling crappy right now,
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  Speaker 3: but everybody else is so perfect. Wow, there must be
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  Speaker 3: something wrong with me, and so what we should do.
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  Speaker 3: So here's so one parenting tip, and I think it's
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  Speaker 3: extremely useful as this. Talk to your kids about a
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  Speaker 3: regret that you have. Tell your kids about a regret
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  Speaker 3: that you have, but don't stop there, tell them what
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  Speaker 3: you learn from it, and tell them what you're gonna
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  Speaker 3: do about it. And I think that that will trigger,
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  Speaker 3: especially for teenagers, a very very powerful and enlightening conversation.
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  Speaker 3: So that's one thing I think that parents can do.
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  Speaker 3: Another thing that parents can do is think about as
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  Speaker 3: they anticipate their regrets. So anticipate their regrets we know
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  Speaker 3: from I did a massive collection of regrets from around
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  Speaker 3: the world and found that around the world people seem
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  Speaker 3: to have the same four core regrets. So as you
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  Speaker 3: anticipate your regrets as a parent, I would really steer
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  Speaker 3: them around doing good enough on most things, but actually
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  Speaker 3: making sure you avoid these four core regrets. Was one
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  Speaker 3: of them. Is, you know, the regret about not providing stability, huge,
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  Speaker 3: huge parental regret, what I call a foundation regret. The
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  Speaker 3: regret about not taking a sensible risk, taking an adventure
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  Speaker 3: with your family, big regret that parents have. I regret
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  Speaker 3: about doing the wrong thing, as we saw with the
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  Speaker 3: mom who yet at her kid, and also regrets about
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  Speaker 3: reaching out. So if you say, you know what, my kid,
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  Speaker 3: and it's not going to matter whether we bought strawberry
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  Speaker 3: yogurt today or cherry yogurt today. It's not going to
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  Speaker 3: matter what ultimately you know if I have a healthy lunch,
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  Speaker 3: what my kid is eating for lunch today. Like, there's
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  Speaker 3: so many decisions parents make, and most of them you
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  Speaker 3: won't remember, but there's some incredibly significant ones that matter
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  Speaker 3: a lot. So when you try to anticipate your regrets
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  Speaker 3: as a parent, anticipate regrets you might have about not
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  Speaker 3: providing stability, regrets you might have about not providing your
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  Speaker 3: family opportunities to learn and grow, regrets you might have
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  Speaker 3: about taking the low road or not doing the right thing,
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  Speaker 3: being immoral, and then regrets that you might have about
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  Speaker 3: not reaching out to your kids, but also to everybody
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  Speaker 3: else in life.
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  Speaker 1: Dan, I love this. You've actually inspired me.
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  Speaker 2: I've been having a conversation with my wife Kylie over
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  Speaker 2: the last couple of weeks. She wants to have more holidays,
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  Speaker 2: she wants to take more vacations, more time away with
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  Speaker 2: the family. Because I'm the dad and I'm always worried
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  Speaker 2: about how much money we've got and whether we can
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  Speaker 2: afford this, so we can afford that, I've been sort
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  Speaker 2: of thinking my heels are saying, let's just have a staycation.
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  Speaker 2: We'll stay home, we'll just visit the beach nearby. It'll
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  Speaker 2: be fine. I can't believe I'm sharing this with you,
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  Speaker 2: but I regret the conversation I had with my wife
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  Speaker 2: the other day, and I feel like I need to
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  Speaker 2: go to her and say I'm sorry. We actually we
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  Speaker 2: do need to put ourselves into more debt so that
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  Speaker 2: we can have that holiday, because I think the kids
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  Speaker 2: aren't going to care about the size of the credit
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  Speaker 2: card dead as much as they're going to enjoy that
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  Speaker 2: opportunity to be away with the family and have that experience.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, that's a tricky one. That's a tricky one
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  Speaker 3: because it's in some ways the particular situation that you're
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  Speaker 3: describing as sort of a balance between stability and stability
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  Speaker 3: and boldness. I don't want to take that lately. What
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  Speaker 3: you do have. It's interesting. It's funny you say that.
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  Speaker 3: It's interesting to say that I just got any mail
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  Speaker 3: from a reader. This reader is in the US city
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  Speaker 3: of Kansas City. I mean literally, like, what, no, not
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  Speaker 3: not today, but yesterday? Who said My bigger regret is
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  Speaker 3: that no joke about this. My bigger regret is that
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  Speaker 3: I didn't spend enough money when I when my family
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  Speaker 3: was younger, I was too nervous that we were going
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  Speaker 3: to go into the poorhouse if we did anything. And
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  Speaker 3: now I am. I can't remember his age, but he was,
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  Speaker 3: you know, in his sixties, and he actually tragically lost
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  Speaker 3: to one of his kids. Now I would do anything
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  Speaker 3: to go back in time and do something because I
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  Speaker 3: realized that now I have the money, but I don't
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  Speaker 3: have any memory. I don't have these memories.
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  Speaker 1: Just going to text her to dance.
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  Speaker 2: I can renovate the house, or I can go on
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  Speaker 2: a holiday, and I think that the.
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  Speaker 1: Kids's gonna be gonna be much.
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  Speaker 3: I'm gonna tell you which one. Yeah, that's a tough
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  Speaker 3: one because you're directly pairing those two things against each other.
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  Speaker 3: That said, one of the things that you see, it's funny.
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  Speaker 3: Let's leave the world of science for a second and
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  Speaker 3: just I can talk about my own experience. I remember
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  Speaker 3: when I have three kids. They're now between the ages
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  Speaker 3: of nineteen and twenty five, twenty six.
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  Speaker 1: Now, the kids changing, Why do they do that?
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  Speaker 3: I know, it's amazing every year, it seems like it's
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  Speaker 3: a different number. One of the things that an old
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  Speaker 3: boss of mine told me when I first had kids,
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  Speaker 3: was pay attention. It's going to go really fast. And
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: I'm like, all right, old man, And then I realized, like, god, dang,
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: he was right. I mean, and so is it going
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: to matter all that much if you pay off your mortgage,
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: you know, this year or two years from now, But
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: your kids are only going to be nine and eleven once.
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: So again, I don't want to be I don't want
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: to take this. I don't want to take those kinds
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: of situations that parents have lightly at all. But these
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: are worthy things to think about. And I think more
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: broadly is that if you make these kinds of decisions
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: and it's a mistake, talk to your kids about it.
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: Here's the thing. I mean, you know this from your
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: research and from your own lived experience. I think one
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: thing that parents don't realize is that their kids listen
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: to them way less than they think, and they watch
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: them way more than they think. All right, That to
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: me is like a central fact of parenthood. And so
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: if you demonstrate these behaviors of normalizing regret, if you show, hey,
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: I'd made this mistake when I was younger, it hurt.
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: I didn't enjoy it. But I learned this lesson and
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: now I'm doing this instead your kids, and you show
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: them what you're doing, your kids are going to pay
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: attention to that. Your kids are going to pay attention
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: to that far more than if you wag your finger
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: at them.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this has been the best part of the interview.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: I'm so grateful for what you just shared. I feel
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: like we've just had a little therapy session.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: Dan. That was beautiful.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: And I know that we barely know each other and
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: we're talking in a public sphere here with a podcast.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: But when you reflect on your life, and I'm sure
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: you've been asked this question many times because of the
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: book you've written, Dan, but what stands out to you
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: is sig regret. Is there anything that sort of that
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: that you're comfortable is closing where you just think, ah, gee,
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: I shouldn't have I shouldn't have said Yes, I shouldn't
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: have done that thing.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: What do you do?
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: I have a lot of regrets. I have a lot
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: of regrets. I have many many regrets. Now you know,
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: I have learned over the years and through this research
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: not to let them debilitate me. Uh and the and
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: and they don't. But but I still have regrets. Like
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: I'll give you one example.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: I have a lot of.
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: Regrets about kindness from when I was younger. And what's
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: interesting is that in all these regrets that I've collected
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: for this book, there are a lot of regrets about bullying, Okay,
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: from from younger. I was amazed at how many regrets
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: all over the world where people regret having bullied somebody.
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: They didn't. They don't regret being on the receiving end
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: of the bullying. They people regretting being the bully. Now,
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: fortunately for my psychological health, I was never a bully.
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: But when I was younger, as a teenager, as a
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: university student, even as a young professional, there were instances
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: where I saw people not being treated by well, people
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: being excluded, people not being treated fairly. I saw it.
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: I knew it was wrong, and I didn't say a word.
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: And that has bugged me for decades now, same kind
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: of thing, it's the same kind of thing. What that's
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: a very normal experience that What's the key here is
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: what do I do with that emotion? What do I
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: do with that stomach churning feeling that I'm describing. I
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: can't ignore it. I can say no regrets. I'm positive
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: all the time. I never look backward. What's past. This
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: past bad idea. I can also say, oh my god,
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: I am the worst, most wretched, vicious human being that
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: has ever walked the face of earth. I am terrible.
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: That's a bad idea too. What I should be doing
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: is saying, Wow, I feel crappy. This makes me feel bad.
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: That's a signal. What's it telling me? And in the
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: in similar to the case with the yogurt mom, what
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: it's telling me and it has helped me is like
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: I actually value kindness more than I might consciously realize.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: And it also instructs me to to be more inclusive,
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: to stand up when someone's being mistreated, to bring people,
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: to bring people in. And I've really tried that. Now.
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: Had I not reckon with that, I don't know. If
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: I would have done that, I would you know, I
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: either would have felt really I would have increasingly felt worse,
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: or I would have not learned that lesson. But by
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: dealing with their regrets, we can we can learn things
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: and you and enlist them to be better parents, better employees,
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: better human beings. You know, it reminds me a little
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: bit of your first question, which is that when people
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: profess that they have no regrets, I think that part
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: of it is that it is a form of performed courage.
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: They think this is what it means to be a
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: courageous person. But that's not courage. Courage is looking your
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: regrets in the eye and doing something about them. And
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: so you know, and I think that parents who demonstrate
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: courage are good parents. Parents who demonst read courage are
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: teaching their kids valuable, valuable lessons.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: Dan, this has been just it's been a highlight. What
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: a great conversation. Thank you so much for your generosity
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: in sharing what you have.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: The book is called The Power of Regret.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: For people who want more information about Dan Pink and
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: everything that you do, where can they go?
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: What can they do?
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: Good to Danpink dot com, d A N p I
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: MK dot com. We've got a free newsletter, all kinds
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: of videos and all kinds of great stuff.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it. I received the newsletter as regularly
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: as it comes out. I don't know how often it
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: pops up in my inbox, but I love receiving it. Dan,
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: thanks so much for being on a Happy Families podcast.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: It's been a real delight to be with you.
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: A pleasure. Thanks for having me, Justin.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: That was Daniel Pink.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: You can find out all about Dan Pink by going
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: to his website, and we'll also link to that and
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: his books in the show notes. Ah Man, I've got
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: to say just before we wrap up the podcast. I've
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: interviewed a whole lot of people for this podcast, and in
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: a whole range of different ways, but talking to Dan
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: Pink is one of the highlights of my life and
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: of the podcast. What an absolute what an absolute superstar.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: So glad that he was able.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: To join me on the podcast, A real thrill. I
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. All
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: the details are in the show notes. As I've mentioned already,
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: I'm sort of gushing, are I. The Happy Family's podcast
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: Craig Bruce is our executive producer.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: If you'd like more information about making your family happy it,
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: please visit us at happy families dot com.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: Do you