Latest / Voyage Clinics Podcast / Inside the Default Mode Network | A Different Look at Mental Health with Holly Hawkins

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Inside the Default Mode Network | A Different Look at Mental Health with Holly Hawkins · Voyage Clinics Podcast

0:10
Speaker 1: Okay, welcome to the Voice Clinics podcast. I'm your host,
0:12
Speaker 1: doctor John Sanders. Our objective is just to bring wisdom,
0:15
Speaker 1: learning and knowledge to our community in the healthcare space.
0:19
Speaker 1: I'm a family physician and I love podcasting. It's a
0:23
Speaker 1: good time Today. Holly Hawkins will be joining me. She
0:26
Speaker 1: works with me at Voyage Clinics and welcome to the podcast.
0:29
Speaker 2: Holly, Thank you. Excited to be here.
0:32
Speaker 1: I really wanted to kind of focus on something that
0:35
Speaker 1: I've been thinking about a lot. And I deal with
0:38
Speaker 1: a lot of people in family medicine and I have
0:43
Speaker 1: for years, and I love it and it's really satisfying
0:47
Speaker 1: work to help people move and grow and change. We
0:50
Speaker 1: do everything from diabet us to hypertension, to sports injuries,
0:55
Speaker 1: to dermatology to pediatrics, the newborn care, of women's health,
0:58
Speaker 1: to optimizing men's health too, hormones, to all these things
1:03
Speaker 1: to kind of help people navigate this life. You're an athlete,
1:09
Speaker 1: attempted yes, or an athlete. Holly plays tennis, She's awesome.
1:13
Speaker 1: She's a coach. Tell me about athletics and the mental
1:19
Speaker 1: game a little bit like in your experience, because I
1:22
Speaker 1: want to apply this to our discussion about health and
1:25
Speaker 1: wellness in that, I think the mental game of life
1:29
Speaker 1: is also there's some parallels here. Yah, so talk to
1:31
Speaker 1: me about it.
1:32
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, you chose a good person because I was
1:35
Speaker 2: a mental case when I played tennis. I think tennis
1:38
Speaker 2: is an interesting one because it is people will say,
1:41
Speaker 2: I can't remember the statistic, but they'll say the game
1:44
Speaker 2: is sixty percent mental and forty percent physical or something
1:47
Speaker 2: like that.
1:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've heard nixety ten.
1:49
Speaker 2: But yeah, whichever way you want, it depends on how
1:53
Speaker 2: much of a mental case they are. And so I
1:56
Speaker 2: feel like for me it really amplify. I feel like
2:01
Speaker 2: the thought patterns that I had about myself and I
2:05
Speaker 2: would those would all come out on the court. So
2:08
Speaker 2: I feel like when I played tennis, in most athletics,
2:11
Speaker 2: I was really negative about myself and just about performance.
2:18
Speaker 2: I was very much in the mindset that it was
2:22
Speaker 2: kind of an all or nothing type experience. Like sports
2:25
Speaker 2: wasn't necessarily just for entertainment for me. I think there
2:29
Speaker 2: was a lot of self worth tied up in athleticism
2:32
Speaker 2: and achievement, and so when I think about the mindset
2:37
Speaker 2: of my athletics specifically, it's always something that I should
2:41
Speaker 2: probably think more about and work on it.
2:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, so your coaches were probably like, Holly, get out
2:47
Speaker 1: of your head, like yes, like wow, and you had
2:51
Speaker 1: just a strong propensity to even though you were focused
2:54
Speaker 1: on a sport, you're still kind of that default mode
2:58
Speaker 1: network was still active exactly.
3:00
Speaker 3: So we're going to talk today about the default mode network.
3:02
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the effects that it has
3:05
Speaker 1: on us physically, emotionally, even like neurologically, and we're going
3:11
Speaker 1: to talk about ways to access it and maybe even
3:15
Speaker 1: recognize that if it is a problem. And did you
3:18
Speaker 1: at that time? Did you? You probably tell me you
3:21
Speaker 1: probably didn't know that there's a default in the mode
3:23
Speaker 1: network in our brains, And yeah, I didn't either for many,
3:28
Speaker 1: many years. And I think that many of us, if
3:31
Speaker 1: not all of us, really don't know what that means
3:34
Speaker 1: default more net.
3:35
Speaker 2: Well, and you explained it a little bit to me.
3:37
Speaker 2: And I think tennis is an interesting one because while
3:40
Speaker 2: I was probably in the point, I was outside of that,
3:44
Speaker 2: Like I wasn't in my head thinking about it. But
3:46
Speaker 2: tennis is so unique that as soon as the ball's
3:48
Speaker 2: out of play, you can go right back into your
3:50
Speaker 2: own head and you can be thinking about all sorts
3:53
Speaker 2: of things not even tied to what you're doing, just
3:56
Speaker 2: because unlike a high energy sport where you're active, for basketball,
4:02
Speaker 2: for example, obviously there's no time for you to be
4:04
Speaker 2: thinking about whatever you're usually thinking about. So I feel
4:08
Speaker 2: like for my specific it allowed me to be probably
4:12
Speaker 2: outside that or inside that more often than not.
4:16
Speaker 3: Inside the default mode network.
4:18
Speaker 1: So default mode network is kind of like, you know,
4:21
Speaker 1: we're daydreaming or just thinking about ourselves, or kind of
4:24
Speaker 1: replaying the past, or sometimes it's like the scripts that
4:27
Speaker 1: we tell ourselves imagining the future, ruminating about ourselves, and
4:33
Speaker 1: it's often complex. And in this case, what would you
4:38
Speaker 1: say some of your default mode network messaging was to yourself?
4:42
Speaker 2: I think a lot of it was extrinsic, like I
4:45
Speaker 2: was really too conscious about like what everybody else must
4:50
Speaker 2: have been thinking about specific aspects of the game, or
4:54
Speaker 2: a lot of it was probably I felt like I
4:57
Speaker 2: probably was characteristic also to my my dad. He was
5:01
Speaker 2: a lot of our tennis coach, and so I felt
5:04
Speaker 2: like I was always trying to think about what he
5:07
Speaker 2: would be thinking about with the match. So oftentimes it
5:10
Speaker 2: was me trying to almost like outthink what he must
5:13
Speaker 2: have been thinking within the match, so rather than just
5:16
Speaker 2: playing and being in a flow state, it was this
5:18
Speaker 2: constant analysis of probably even deeper, trying to live up
5:24
Speaker 2: to his expectations of what he wanted, and then probably
5:28
Speaker 2: even just for myself, I think a lot of it
5:30
Speaker 2: was just the worry that I wasn't playing up to
5:36
Speaker 2: my potential. And I see that show up a lot
5:39
Speaker 2: in my life, different than even in sports.
5:42
Speaker 1: There's a deeper there's a deeper dialogue to what you
5:46
Speaker 1: just shared with me, and hopefully we'll scratch at it
5:49
Speaker 1: today and we might discover it. But there's something a
5:52
Speaker 1: little deeper, and you can sense it in this default moment.
5:55
Speaker 3: Is so interesting.
5:56
Speaker 1: I'll just talk about the areas of the brain that's
5:58
Speaker 1: involved there. The medio prefrontal cortex, it's self reflection. It's
6:05
Speaker 1: like me thinking about me, right, that's that area. The
6:08
Speaker 1: post tier singulate cortex, it's like awareness plus internal narrative.
6:14
Speaker 1: There's lots of internal narratives, and some of them are
6:17
Speaker 1: very confident and very good and reassuring and really positive,
6:21
Speaker 1: and some of those internal narratives can be very very
6:24
Speaker 1: crippling and damaging. I'm not good enough. People hate me.
6:29
Speaker 1: I hate people. There's a bunch of them. And how
6:33
Speaker 1: we get imprinted on these internal narratives is very complex,
6:36
Speaker 1: and I think it can happen unbeknownst to us, Like
6:41
Speaker 1: there's not a deliberate I can't think of any little
6:43
Speaker 1: kid who decides one day, I'm just going to think
6:46
Speaker 1: I'm not good enough the rest of my life. But
6:49
Speaker 1: it happens all the time, and it is that internal
6:53
Speaker 1: narrative that's part of that default mode network that can
6:57
Speaker 1: be so so damaging and so in meshed in the
7:01
Speaker 1: sense of identity that you don't even see it, you
7:05
Speaker 1: don't even recognize it. So my goal today is to
7:09
Speaker 1: spend some time in this space so we can scratch
7:12
Speaker 1: out it a little bit. Like consider it. Consider that
7:14
Speaker 1: there is something deeper in your default mode network that
7:17
Speaker 1: is giving you a message that is affecting you. It's
7:21
Speaker 1: affecting all aspects of your life. It's affecting your game
7:24
Speaker 1: of tennis, it's affecting your relationships, it's affecting your mood,
7:29
Speaker 1: it's affecting your ability to handle certain situations. It's profound.
7:34
Speaker 1: The last one is your angular gyrus of your brain,
7:37
Speaker 1: and it's really in charge of memory plus like meaning
7:41
Speaker 1: and making meaning of your life. So in short, I
7:43
Speaker 1: think these areas of your brain. They work together to
7:46
Speaker 1: give you a sense of identity. They give you a
7:49
Speaker 1: personal story and an inner dialogue, a sense of identity,
7:53
Speaker 1: a personal story and an inner dialogue. You can imagine
7:57
Speaker 1: if we get that wrong, right, holy crap. Like I
8:02
Speaker 1: see a lot of people. I love a lot of
8:04
Speaker 1: beautiful people, and I don't think, including myself, our default
8:10
Speaker 1: mode network is perfect right, And for years I didn't
8:15
Speaker 1: see it in myself. I didn't even know that it existed.
8:18
Speaker 1: And as I'm coming to this emotional intelligence space in
8:22
Speaker 1: my lifetime, I'm forty seven, I should have done this
8:24
Speaker 1: a lot earlier, but it's been it's been lovely to
8:29
Speaker 1: actually question some of those some of that default mode network,
8:33
Speaker 1: some of the sense of identity, some of the sense
8:36
Speaker 1: of personal story and inner dialogue. You can imagine how
8:40
Speaker 1: impressionable children are with regard to their default network, and
8:46
Speaker 1: it can really be really challenging for them to create
8:50
Speaker 1: a healthy default mode network, really tough.
8:53
Speaker 2: Well, And that's where I think people have probably never
8:56
Speaker 2: heard this terminology before, but I hope that it resonates.
9:00
Speaker 2: I think as you're speaking I can think of lots
9:03
Speaker 2: of people who maybe don't know what their default network
9:08
Speaker 2: actually is saying to them, but they know it shows up,
9:11
Speaker 2: they know that it's impacting them totally.
9:15
Speaker 1: I want to get into that in a second because
9:17
Speaker 1: I want to just finish rolling out the details of it,
9:19
Speaker 1: but I really want to circle back on that.
9:21
Speaker 3: Put it. Let's put a pin in that for now.
9:23
Speaker 1: But how do you recognize this is the question that
9:25
Speaker 1: you're going to ask me in a minute. How do
9:27
Speaker 1: we recognize when our default mode network is not helpful
9:32
Speaker 1: or when it needs work our inner our sense of identity,
9:37
Speaker 1: our personal story, and our inner dialogues. How what are
9:42
Speaker 1: the clues that one might might have in their life
9:46
Speaker 1: that they need to look at that default mode network
9:49
Speaker 1: with a therapist probably or a close friend or but
9:54
Speaker 1: you got to get there and look at it and
9:56
Speaker 1: be willing to kind of like consider that it might
9:59
Speaker 1: not be right.
10:01
Speaker 3: I'll share a couple of things with you later, But okay,
10:04
Speaker 3: but it's tough.
10:05
Speaker 1: It's tough, And I want to hear a little bit
10:07
Speaker 1: about your journey too in this space too, because I
10:09
Speaker 1: think we're all having these emotional journeys and it's beautiful
10:12
Speaker 1: and these mental health journeys. And it's part of the
10:15
Speaker 1: game of life. It's part of the game of tennis,
10:16
Speaker 1: it's part of the game of pickleball. Having played pickleball
10:19
Speaker 1: with your dad, I could totally see how that would
10:23
Speaker 1: be challenging.
10:23
Speaker 3: And he is so beautiful.
10:25
Speaker 1: I love that guy, but he can get in his head. Boy,
10:29
Speaker 1: in his head. I remember one time we were playing
10:31
Speaker 1: and he hit this shot and I'm like, that was
10:36
Speaker 1: the most beautiful shot I've seen in my whole life.
10:38
Speaker 1: And he's like, don't tell me that. And I'm like, what,
10:40
Speaker 1: I just gave you a compliment.
10:41
Speaker 3: Dog.
10:42
Speaker 1: He's like, no, you put pressure on me to hit
10:45
Speaker 1: that shot again perfectly. And I'm like, I did no
10:48
Speaker 1: such thing. Dog.
10:49
Speaker 3: That's your internal network talking. But it is.
10:54
Speaker 1: It's like, right, it plays so much into everything that
10:58
Speaker 1: we're doing. Let's talk about what it actually does. So
11:01
Speaker 1: building your sense of self, like your identity, your beliefs
11:05
Speaker 1: about yourself.
11:05
Speaker 3: Your role in the world.
11:07
Speaker 1: So that's that's kind of important. You could see how
11:10
Speaker 1: like even like religion can play a role in our
11:15
Speaker 1: default mode networks. Right, and and to the to if
11:18
Speaker 1: your religion discussions with parents or whomever is talking to
11:22
Speaker 1: you about this. That can be appropriate or sometimes maybe
11:27
Speaker 1: less appropriate. If there's in like any religion, there's sometimes
11:31
Speaker 1: a philosophy of more spear guilt and shame driven spirituality.
11:35
Speaker 1: And if that becomes part of your identity and your
11:37
Speaker 1: beliefs about yourself and your role in the world, holy cow.
11:44
Speaker 1: Really for generations, that can mess floats up. And so
11:47
Speaker 1: I think being really careful with our the way we
11:51
Speaker 1: are with ourselves is really really important. How we who
11:55
Speaker 1: we are, you know? And yeah, I think that's super important.
12:01
Speaker 1: I don't know if I want to go into the
12:02
Speaker 1: religion too much, but I just think it is the
12:05
Speaker 1: scaffolding with which we identify a sense of who we are,
12:10
Speaker 1: these internal narratives. You know, why did I say that?
12:14
Speaker 1: What if this goes wrong? You know? Or I always
12:17
Speaker 1: mess this up right? Or I'm a piece of crab
12:20
Speaker 1: or or yeah, or or like I'm not worthy of love.
12:26
Speaker 1: Like there's all kinds of them. I'll give you a
12:28
Speaker 1: brief example. When I was a little kid, I was
12:32
Speaker 1: in the Bee reading group. I have a little dyslexia,
12:36
Speaker 1: and I would read and I'd be so nervous that
12:39
Speaker 1: I was going to mess up. I'd go back. So
12:42
Speaker 1: my reading was never fluid. It was choppy. I would
12:45
Speaker 1: pause awkwardly sometimes because I was going back and making
12:47
Speaker 1: sure I didn't make a mistake, because sometimes the words
12:50
Speaker 1: are tricky for my brain. And I was put in
12:53
Speaker 1: the big reading group, and so for years I told
12:56
Speaker 1: myself I wasn't a good reader. Wow, I just it
12:59
Speaker 1: was part of who I became, right And so, man,
13:03
Speaker 1: it's so easy to fall into some dysfunctional default mode
13:07
Speaker 1: network stuff. It took me, I think, when I was
13:11
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe college, when I finally decided to
13:15
Speaker 1: give that inner dialogue up and to say, maybe I
13:18
Speaker 1: can challenge that maybe I am a good reader.
13:22
Speaker 3: Maybe it's fine. But that was hard.
13:25
Speaker 1: It was inner deep work that I don't know how
13:28
Speaker 1: I did it.
13:28
Speaker 2: I don't know how I was gonna say, what did
13:29
Speaker 2: that look like for you?
13:31
Speaker 1: I don't know how I even became aware that that
13:33
Speaker 1: was a thing. I just I knew that I didn't
13:35
Speaker 1: like it. I didn't like the way I felt about
13:38
Speaker 1: thinking that way. And I was like, I'm going to
13:41
Speaker 1: challenge that. How to challenge that It runs these internal
13:45
Speaker 1: and I think it also links us to like our
13:48
Speaker 1: past and our future. So it like our autobiography and
13:52
Speaker 1: kind of like crafting who we where we've come from,
13:56
Speaker 1: who we can potentially be as well.
13:58
Speaker 3: I don't know. I think I and the access to.
14:01
Speaker 1: And awareness about our default mode networks are probably one
14:05
Speaker 1: of the most important things we can establish in this
14:08
Speaker 1: life to enact change in ourselves, like real.
14:12
Speaker 2: Change, and to really identify what's going on below the surface.
14:17
Speaker 2: I think that's the conversation that we were having before.
14:20
Speaker 2: This conversation was just understanding that we might think we're
14:25
Speaker 2: in charge of a lot of our lives, but there's
14:27
Speaker 2: this whole deeper section of our brain that is actually
14:30
Speaker 2: making decisions about what we believe about ourselves, and now
14:33
Speaker 2: that will show up in lots of different ways. I think.
14:36
Speaker 2: I was just listening to a podcast last night about
14:39
Speaker 2: the psychology of sales and the fact that the first
14:42
Speaker 2: thing that they will teach salespeople is how to get
14:44
Speaker 2: out of these narratives that they've taught themselves. And I
14:48
Speaker 2: think that you can find a lot more heartache than
14:53
Speaker 2: you're expecting when you start to go through these deeper
14:57
Speaker 2: thoughts and start to really identify how that's shown up
15:01
Speaker 2: in your life and how long you've been believing these
15:04
Speaker 2: really sad things about yourself, and I think some people
15:08
Speaker 2: do it more successfully than others. Some are able to
15:11
Speaker 2: identify those and move forward. But I've also seen lots
15:14
Speaker 2: of people in my life, I think, especially in your
15:17
Speaker 2: early twenties, when you're trying to figure out who you
15:19
Speaker 2: are and how you connect to the world. I don't
15:21
Speaker 2: think the world we live in necessarily helps people to
15:24
Speaker 2: get out of those thought processes very well.
15:27
Speaker 1: I think you're totally right on. When we get shown
15:32
Speaker 1: something impressed upon, we start to believe those things. And
15:37
Speaker 1: how many people are influencing other people right now, there's
15:41
Speaker 1: this whole thing around influencers, right, and so we are
15:45
Speaker 1: very impressionable humans, and we get influenced and then and
15:50
Speaker 1: then we can sometimes get distracted from our hearts and
15:55
Speaker 1: from who we really are, and then we start. Oh,
16:00
Speaker 1: I think there's one of the better ways. I like
16:04
Speaker 1: to describe this as like the book called The Ant
16:06
Speaker 1: and the Elephant, and the ant is the thinker brain.
16:08
Speaker 1: It's it could be this this default mode network guy
16:13
Speaker 1: just kind of always telling us this or that or
16:15
Speaker 1: you know, think this way or consider this, whereas the
16:18
Speaker 1: elephant is kind of our deeper emotional lumbering center. And
16:21
Speaker 1: right now our society is deep into the ant space,
16:25
Speaker 1: like we're just always thinking about this and.
16:27
Speaker 2: That and the other and doing so much doing.
16:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then distracted from our hearts, like really deep
16:33
Speaker 1: soul connections with each other, with our hearts, with ourselves.
16:38
Speaker 1: We're lacking in those spaces meditation and mindfulness and good
16:42
Speaker 1: sleep and really good patterns for creating really healthy default
16:47
Speaker 1: mode networks. I think we're sometimes lacking a little bit
16:50
Speaker 1: in those spaces. Default mode networks are not necessarily bad.
16:53
Speaker 1: They're super essential to who we are. It's just like
16:56
Speaker 1: the ant and the elephant. The ant's really important, right,
16:59
Speaker 1: but become overbearing and if it's if it's got the
17:02
Speaker 1: wrong narrative, or it's overactive or it's hyper rigid, then
17:07
Speaker 1: it can become really damaging and really hurt us and
17:11
Speaker 1: really really affect everything in our lives, every aspect of
17:16
Speaker 1: our relationships, our connections, everything. Like for instance, like depression
17:21
Speaker 1: is like I could have should have would have done
17:22
Speaker 1: that thing. I should ruminate about it and think about
17:25
Speaker 1: it a lot, and then anxiety could be like, oh
17:28
Speaker 1: my gosh, what if this or oh my gosh, what
17:29
Speaker 1: if that and that default mode network goes to oh
17:32
Speaker 1: my gosh, what if OCD is like like I just
17:36
Speaker 1: keep on thinking about the same thing and I can't
17:38
Speaker 1: get out of it. And and so these default mode networks,
17:41
Speaker 1: I think they're the source of much of our mental
17:44
Speaker 1: un wellness out there. I think mental health is largely curable. Yes,
17:52
Speaker 1: I believe that is totally true. Default mode network working
17:57
Speaker 1: on that space, the deeper sense of self and rescripting
18:01
Speaker 1: it and believing, truly believing something different about yourself the
18:06
Speaker 1: world others, I think that's the key.
18:09
Speaker 2: So this is where we've talked about of I think
18:12
Speaker 2: there's so many people searching for that and using different
18:16
Speaker 2: techniques to try and find that. I think therapy people
18:20
Speaker 2: try and go to therapy and they're seeking this answer
18:23
Speaker 2: of I want to heal the inner child, I want
18:26
Speaker 2: to let go of these beliefs that I've had about
18:29
Speaker 2: myself for so long. And I think everyone always says,
18:33
Speaker 2: with the right therapist, you can get there, but I
18:36
Speaker 2: think there's often a lack of the right therapist accessible
18:40
Speaker 2: to most people. So I know we've had that conversation
18:43
Speaker 2: of what to do, how to start, Like where do
18:46
Speaker 2: you go to be able to start accessing these things
18:49
Speaker 2: because there's gonna be people who are listening or like
18:51
Speaker 2: this is me, But where do they go next?
18:55
Speaker 3: That's so true.
18:55
Speaker 1: I think everybody wants to kind of look at this
18:57
Speaker 1: space and work on it, and even the therapists want
18:59
Speaker 1: to get there and help. You kind of see that
19:02
Speaker 1: in this we're speaking directly to people's default mode networks
19:06
Speaker 1: because it's really just like pre you know, it's just
19:09
Speaker 1: like our brain cells, just like, let's talk to our
19:11
Speaker 1: brains and try to fix our brains. Where I think
19:14
Speaker 1: what we would like to try to do is get
19:17
Speaker 1: out of our heads, get out of the way with
19:20
Speaker 1: our default mode networks, and really connect with our hearts
19:25
Speaker 1: and really allow that to be a little bit stronger
19:29
Speaker 1: force in our lives. But if you've got a dysfunctional
19:32
Speaker 1: default mode network that's creating all this dysregulation, emotional dysregulation,
19:38
Speaker 1: autonomic disregulation, man, it can be really tough. And the
19:43
Speaker 1: default mode network is so deeply ingrained into who we
19:47
Speaker 1: believe we are it's hard to challenge that. What do
19:50
Speaker 1: you mean, I'm a good dad. I definitely need to
19:55
Speaker 1: line out my kids all the time. Where there's actually
19:59
Speaker 1: some that happened to you a long time ago that
20:02
Speaker 1: made you have an overbearing sense of that A little
20:07
Speaker 1: bit of concern for your children's great But man, you're overbearing.
20:11
Speaker 1: It's too much. Why let's scratch it that you're disproportionately
20:18
Speaker 1: angry right now, let's consider why. I think the way
20:23
Speaker 1: to challenge our default mode network. So you ask, like,
20:26
Speaker 1: how do we know if we're off in our default
20:29
Speaker 1: mode network? I think some of it could be the
20:33
Speaker 1: way that we regulate emotionally. If you find yourself consistently
20:38
Speaker 1: emotionally disregulated, overly anxious, overly depressed, overly angry, overly triggered,
20:46
Speaker 1: there's something in your default mode network that you need
20:49
Speaker 1: to look at. And it's not readily apparent. It's not like, oh,
20:53
Speaker 1: I know what it is. No, you have no idea
20:56
Speaker 1: because it's so it is you. You believe this with
21:00
Speaker 1: your full being, and so did really get there and
21:04
Speaker 1: really disentangle that? Man?
21:06
Speaker 3: That's tough. That's tough.
21:09
Speaker 1: And I will say the medicines that we prescribe in
21:13
Speaker 1: healthcare right now largely don't do it.
21:15
Speaker 3: They don't.
21:16
Speaker 1: What the medicines do is they help you regulate a
21:22
Speaker 1: little bit your emotions. So they treat a symptom, that's
21:24
Speaker 1: all they're doing. They're not getting you to the source
21:27
Speaker 1: of that dysregulation. So you got to work with a
21:32
Speaker 1: therapist and do other tools. So for more than a
21:37
Speaker 1: year and a half we've done psychedelic therapy in my
21:39
Speaker 1: office with ketamine and it really helps disconnect that default
21:44
Speaker 1: mode network. So now you're out of your head completely.
21:48
Speaker 3: And then when you come.
21:49
Speaker 1: Back, there's a sense of I've loosened up a little
21:53
Speaker 1: bit and maybe I can consider that there's Nope, can't.
21:57
Speaker 1: And then you do another session, right, and then you're like, oh,
22:01
Speaker 1: that was so liberating to be free from my very
22:06
Speaker 1: negative default mode network my brain that tells me I'm
22:10
Speaker 1: not enough consistently. Really, it's so nice to be like
22:15
Speaker 1: disassociated from that. I wonder if I can believe something different.
22:18
Speaker 3: It Nope, I can't.
22:20
Speaker 1: So you do another session, but you're at least starting
22:23
Speaker 1: to question the default network. You're at least starting to
22:26
Speaker 1: consider there's a possibility, but there's a different way to
22:30
Speaker 1: see yourself, the world, God, your relationships, and it might
22:35
Speaker 1: be a little bit healthier.
22:37
Speaker 3: Do you have an example for us?
22:38
Speaker 2: So I've actually done kenymine at our office and it's
22:43
Speaker 2: I didn't know that by the way, Yeah you're speaking this.
22:45
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, it's bringing back this experience and I
22:50
Speaker 2: feel like for me, I remember the last session that
22:54
Speaker 2: I did, it was so interesting the Kedymine process of
22:57
Speaker 2: just I feel like I want to have such a
23:01
Speaker 2: tight grip on my reality, and being under the influence
23:05
Speaker 2: of Ketymine, it was a big eye opener that I
23:08
Speaker 2: really just try and hold so tightly to everything, whether
23:11
Speaker 2: that's people or experiences or mainly just control, Like I
23:15
Speaker 2: really just like to feel like I'm in control. So
23:18
Speaker 2: the experience of ketamine was the inability to keep that
23:23
Speaker 2: control and now see things from a different perspective and
23:25
Speaker 2: kind of understand that there's room for me to release
23:29
Speaker 2: and have it be okay. But I feel like mainly
23:33
Speaker 2: in the last session that I did made the most
23:36
Speaker 2: effect on me now when I was able to kind
23:39
Speaker 2: of integrate that more into just how I think about things,
23:42
Speaker 2: probably affecting some of that natural process of thought inside.
23:48
Speaker 2: And it was mainly this realization that I am lacking
23:54
Speaker 2: vulnerability to love, that it's actually very difficult for me
23:57
Speaker 2: to express and feel and accept love unconditionally. For me,
24:04
Speaker 2: a lot of it was conditioned, whether for myself or
24:07
Speaker 2: even for other people, that when I was in that
24:10
Speaker 2: space of being able to not see things from my
24:14
Speaker 2: own perspective every single time, like I had while doing
24:18
Speaker 2: a Kedymine session, it was this big realization that I
24:22
Speaker 2: had all these beliefs about love that really weren't true
24:25
Speaker 2: and weren't serving me. And so I remember coming out
24:29
Speaker 2: of it and just feeling so much love for myself
24:33
Speaker 2: and for others, and specifically I think people in my
24:37
Speaker 2: life that I had probably made assumptions about in terms
24:41
Speaker 2: of love and receiving their love, that I wanted to
24:44
Speaker 2: almost just call everybody and just tell them that I
24:47
Speaker 2: was grateful for them and that I loved them. And
24:50
Speaker 2: I feel like I previously had no idea that that
24:54
Speaker 2: was it. Like I believed myself to be a pretty
24:57
Speaker 2: free flowing, loving person, and so it was interesting for
25:01
Speaker 2: me to have a whole new framework of what that
25:03
Speaker 2: would even be. Like, I had no idea that you
25:05
Speaker 2: could feel that much love for people because I had
25:07
Speaker 2: never experienced it before. But Kenymine kind of created that
25:11
Speaker 2: space for me to understand that what I believed wasn't
25:15
Speaker 2: necessarily what was actually happening in my life.
25:18
Speaker 1: That is so cool, and thank you for sharing some
25:22
Speaker 1: personal stuff I would I asked, can I ask you
25:27
Speaker 1: what were some of those inner dialogues around love that
25:30
Speaker 1: you challenged?
25:32
Speaker 3: Are you willing to show them?
25:33
Speaker 2: Yeah? That might be personally, I'm happy to I feel
25:37
Speaker 2: like a lot of it was.
25:39
Speaker 1: So.
25:39
Speaker 2: I grew up in a pretty big family. There was
25:41
Speaker 2: eight of us. I'm the second oldest, and I felt
25:44
Speaker 2: like for me, very early on, I was seeking I think,
25:50
Speaker 2: just more love and attention. I was a pretty sensitive
25:52
Speaker 2: kid growing up, and so I was. I became really
25:57
Speaker 2: good at knowing when people's attention and love was being given,
26:02
Speaker 2: and I feel like I became really sensitive to seeking
26:08
Speaker 2: that out and trying my best to obtain that that
26:11
Speaker 2: I created this almost mentality that I needed to earn
26:16
Speaker 2: love or I needed to almost be somebody respectable to
26:22
Speaker 2: have people admire and give me attention and love me.
26:26
Speaker 3: You had to be good enough, ye see exactly.
26:29
Speaker 1: There were contingencies or conditions.
26:34
Speaker 2: Which is a good thing, but I think too much
26:36
Speaker 2: of a good thing can become a bad thing. I
26:39
Speaker 2: took a lot of responsibility for taking care of my siblings,
26:43
Speaker 2: and I felt a lot of pride, and that was
26:45
Speaker 2: mainly where people would then vocalize like, oh wow, you're
26:48
Speaker 2: really good at helping your mom with the little ones.
26:52
Speaker 2: And I think that just became ingrained in me of
26:55
Speaker 2: oh okay, like people notice when you care and when
26:58
Speaker 2: you serve and when you try and take care of
27:01
Speaker 2: And so I created this inner dialogue that to be
27:04
Speaker 2: loved was to be selfless or to take care of others,
27:09
Speaker 2: and it grated have it on my life for a
27:12
Speaker 2: long time. I remember having just a lot of difficulty
27:16
Speaker 2: when I moved outside of my home and now was
27:20
Speaker 2: navigating a space where I didn't readily have little people
27:23
Speaker 2: to just take care of and feel good about. And instead,
27:27
Speaker 2: I remember my high school years when you're not necessarily
27:30
Speaker 2: in a place to take care of others, that I
27:33
Speaker 2: felt really conflicted inside of, like how do you know?
27:37
Speaker 2: How do you know if people like you if you
27:39
Speaker 2: can't take care of them? And I feel like even
27:42
Speaker 2: now that I'm married, and that was many years ago
27:45
Speaker 2: that I decided that against myself, I find that showing
27:49
Speaker 2: up now where my default is to try and do
27:54
Speaker 2: something to be loved rather than just accepting love as
27:57
Speaker 2: it is.
27:59
Speaker 1: That's so cool, and it's so beautiful that you were
28:01
Speaker 1: able to start shifting that, but then you see it
28:06
Speaker 1: still permeate your relationship. Yeah, and so so I again,
28:12
Speaker 1: I think the deep work of moving those tectonic plates
28:17
Speaker 1: is very difficult. I mean, some of these the default
28:20
Speaker 1: mode network is sometimes considered like the ego, right, Like
28:23
Speaker 1: he's telling me these dialogues and I'm believing them and
28:25
Speaker 1: it's becoming who I am. And if you can dissolve
28:29
Speaker 1: that or ego death or you know, get rid of that,
28:33
Speaker 1: get that out of the way, like you did. You
28:36
Speaker 1: came out of that session like wow, because I have
28:39
Speaker 1: this this break and these these parts of my brain
28:43
Speaker 1: that are in charge of this default mode network. You
28:47
Speaker 1: didn't think that, but I did. You You now can
28:51
Speaker 1: have this ego death and this thought that, hey, there's
28:56
Speaker 1: a new perspective to have here. And the integration that
28:59
Speaker 1: that that we do with therapy or with family members
29:02
Speaker 1: or with chaplain in our clinic is really important to
29:07
Speaker 1: continuing the rescripting of that default mode network. Right.
29:12
Speaker 3: So even you telling me.
29:13
Speaker 1: This story is part of your integration to rescripting that
29:18
Speaker 1: default mode network and it's powerful. So thank you for sharing. Yeah,
29:21
Speaker 1: and we'll keep working on that, and me too.
29:24
Speaker 2: I think a common misconception when it comes to I
29:27
Speaker 2: think most fixes with anxiety, maybe even call them fixes,
29:31
Speaker 2: is this idea that almost once you find the problem,
29:35
Speaker 2: you'll be able to just fix it with an easy solution.
29:37
Speaker 2: I think I even sem I thought that about Ketymine,
29:40
Speaker 2: of like, oh, well, once I understand what the problems
29:43
Speaker 2: are that are creating my mentality to be this way,
29:45
Speaker 2: I'll just be able to rewrite it. And I mean
29:48
Speaker 2: it's been now a few years since I went through
29:51
Speaker 2: my Kedymine infusions, and even now, like every day I
29:55
Speaker 2: have to rethink those And I think that's something that
29:59
Speaker 2: is a beautiful process that people don't talk about enough,
30:02
Speaker 2: is that you don't just come out of kenemine, or
30:04
Speaker 2: you don't just start taking a antidepressants and you're immediately
30:08
Speaker 2: fixed and these anxieties go away, or these depressive thoughts
30:12
Speaker 2: or the ruminating on negative self beliefs like that doesn't
30:16
Speaker 2: just disappear. But I think there's beauty to be found
30:19
Speaker 2: in the journey of that. Particularly from my experience, it's
30:23
Speaker 2: been a challenge to let others in. I can talk
30:28
Speaker 2: to about it with strangers, but deep family members. It's
30:31
Speaker 2: like a difficulty barrier, but rather than it just being
30:34
Speaker 2: fixed as soon as I came out of that infusion,
30:36
Speaker 2: like it's been treatment for me to have to learn
30:40
Speaker 2: to talk about it with those people and to express
30:43
Speaker 2: my needs to them. And I think that's a space
30:46
Speaker 2: that we often don't implement enough. You can't perscribe somebody
30:51
Speaker 2: to go talk to their people in their life. But
30:54
Speaker 2: I think there's kind of this idea of fixing anxiety
30:58
Speaker 2: when a lot of the time it's a lifelong journey
31:00
Speaker 2: that we have to continually take steps for and there
31:03
Speaker 2: will be steps forward and backwards, which I'm sure you've
31:06
Speaker 2: seen with people in clinic.
31:09
Speaker 1: I love that you just mentioned this lifelong journey of
31:13
Speaker 1: working on the default mode network. How do we gain
31:16
Speaker 1: access to that? How do we loosen it up? When
31:18
Speaker 1: we talked about psychedelics as a way to get there, ketamine,
31:22
Speaker 1: and you know, there are others out there that are
31:24
Speaker 1: not as legal but can definitely loosen up that default
31:29
Speaker 1: mode network less rigid thinking and promote kind of this
31:35
Speaker 1: capacity for change. I just love the journey and emphasizing
31:40
Speaker 1: the journey that you just did, where you know it's
31:42
Speaker 1: a beautiful process. It's a hard process and it's definitely
31:46
Speaker 1: one that you still struggle with every day. Every day
31:48
Speaker 1: you recognize, I'm doing that thing again, and and you know,
31:53
Speaker 1: trying to find that deeper part that might need some
31:57
Speaker 1: healing could take your whole life for you. May not right,
32:01
Speaker 1: but but you're still working on it and you're still
32:03
Speaker 1: aware of it, and I think that's beautiful. There are
32:07
Speaker 1: natural remedies, natural ways. So this is something that I
32:10
Speaker 1: wanted to emphasize, natural ways that we can work on
32:13
Speaker 1: our default mode network. Breath work. Breath work temporarily disrupts
32:20
Speaker 1: the default mode network. It creates you're breathing right, you're
32:24
Speaker 1: inhaling exhaling and kind of rapid succession. And and then
32:28
Speaker 1: there's there's some there's there's some meditation and some mindfulness
32:32
Speaker 1: stuff practices involved there, and often it's guided biochemically because
32:36
Speaker 1: I'm a nerd as you inhale exhale. There's an equation
32:40
Speaker 1: called the Henderson Hasseboc equation, and it's it's a whole
32:44
Speaker 1: bunch of log of X y Z blah blah blahs,
32:46
Speaker 1: and then it's and then it's HC three over CO
32:48
Speaker 1: two and that determines your pH of your blood, your
32:51
Speaker 1: your blood acid base levels. When you're inhaling exhaling, your
32:56
Speaker 1: CO two is dropping because you're blowing off more CO two,
32:59
Speaker 1: which is the dominator of that equation as you re call,
33:01
Speaker 1: and then it's increasing your pH. And as your pH
33:05
Speaker 1: increases you become alcoholic. It's respiratory alkalosis, and that can
33:10
Speaker 1: lead to this heightened sense of just you know, you
33:13
Speaker 1: can hallucinate, you can do all kinds stuff on that space.
33:16
Speaker 1: Your lips will tingle, your hands might tingle a little bit.
33:18
Speaker 1: When people hyperventilate, they're trying to regulate their emotions that
33:21
Speaker 1: are literally your body is saying, well, I need you
33:24
Speaker 1: to hyperventilate right now because you need to get out
33:25
Speaker 1: of your head because you're stuck up there and your
33:28
Speaker 1: default mode network needs to be disrupted. Breathwork does that
33:33
Speaker 1: intentionally and deliberately and combines kind of other practices with that,
33:37
Speaker 1: and it can be a really beautiful practice to continue
33:40
Speaker 1: to access that, disrupt it, loosen it up, rethink it.
33:45
Speaker 1: And that's beautiful meditation if you get good at it,
33:50
Speaker 1: which I don't think many of us really take time
33:52
Speaker 1: to meditate, but it can be really really beautiful to
33:55
Speaker 1: just quiet the default mode network. You get better and
33:58
Speaker 1: better at just quieting your mind and stilling that those
34:01
Speaker 1: inner dialogues that are less healthy for us. And then
34:04
Speaker 1: other things movement. Movement is medicine, rate, sports and music
34:08
Speaker 1: and different things that kind of get us out of
34:11
Speaker 1: our heads and stuff like that is really really good.
34:14
Speaker 1: I want to consider ways that we can create a
34:18
Speaker 1: healthy default mode network. What are some dialogues that we
34:22
Speaker 1: could consider looking at prescribing to to create a default
34:28
Speaker 1: mode network that is positive in our lives instead of negative.
34:32
Speaker 3: In our lives.
34:33
Speaker 1: What do you think?
34:34
Speaker 2: There's this video that comes to mind of this mom
34:36
Speaker 2: she every day with her child, she's probably three. While
34:41
Speaker 2: she's doing her hair, she just repeats these very positive
34:45
Speaker 2: and loving expressions to her, like you are beautiful, and
34:49
Speaker 2: then she has her daughter repeat back of like I
34:51
Speaker 2: am beautiful. And she goes through all sorts of different
34:54
Speaker 2: ones from things that I think we think are kind
34:58
Speaker 2: of cheesy, like saying I am or I'm beautiful, or
35:01
Speaker 2: I'm strong. But you can see the almost change in
35:05
Speaker 2: her immediate, like the little girl starts to get excited
35:08
Speaker 2: about just I think there is a lot of power
35:12
Speaker 2: in the words we say to ourselves, and you can
35:15
Speaker 2: see her start to feel empowered about herself. And she's three,
35:18
Speaker 2: like she doesn't even really have this interaction with the
35:20
Speaker 2: world yet. I think so often we're almost able to
35:24
Speaker 2: identify other people's internal dialogue by what they express outwardly.
35:29
Speaker 2: I think it's almost better to have somebody tell you
35:32
Speaker 2: the things that might be helpful for you to hear.
35:35
Speaker 2: I remember you even saying with your family members, like
35:38
Speaker 2: it's easy for you to be able to identify what
35:41
Speaker 2: they might need to hear, and telling that to them
35:44
Speaker 2: and allowing them to have those words first, I think,
35:47
Speaker 2: heard from somebody else, and then hopefully they eventually start
35:50
Speaker 2: to say those things to themselves as well.
35:52
Speaker 1: I love that words of affirmation can't be understated, especially
35:56
Speaker 1: in small children, as they are so impressionable, and they
35:59
Speaker 1: start to script that some of those you are beautiful,
36:03
Speaker 1: you are enough, You're smart? These are you are?
36:06
Speaker 3: I mean?
36:07
Speaker 1: Are I am? These are words of creation in our hearts,
36:11
Speaker 1: in our default mode networks. They become part of our story,
36:15
Speaker 1: part of who we become, and so I love that
36:18
Speaker 1: just just really emphasizing the positive parts and even to yourself.
36:22
Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's positive affirmation meditation technique. Right, You're
36:26
Speaker 1: like meditating and there's a voice on the meditation app
36:29
Speaker 1: or whatever, and it's talking to you and just showering
36:32
Speaker 1: with these all these words of affirmation, and that's work
36:36
Speaker 1: that works, right, that works well?
36:37
Speaker 2: Thank you. Also, like you'll find the ones that hit home,
36:40
Speaker 2: Like somebody will say something and all of a sudden
36:42
Speaker 2: you feel emotional or you feel depending on your reaction
36:46
Speaker 2: to that. Like people will also feel defensive. Like you
36:48
Speaker 2: can tell when something almost triggers a little bit of
36:52
Speaker 2: that inner child work that needs to be done. And
36:55
Speaker 2: I think that's where you can either choose to just
36:57
Speaker 2: brush that off and continue in your same path, like
37:00
Speaker 2: I don't know what that was, but I'm going to
37:02
Speaker 2: ignore it, or those are the moments to really take
37:05
Speaker 2: a pause and think why did that just affect me
37:08
Speaker 2: in the way that it did, and be willing to
37:11
Speaker 2: accept that. That's probably the change you're looking for, but
37:14
Speaker 2: it's probably a scary thing to enter into because it's
37:19
Speaker 2: changing what you've always known.
37:22
Speaker 1: There are collective default mode network messagings that happen in
37:26
Speaker 1: our society, and it does like create a sense of
37:32
Speaker 1: less than or comparing yourself to others, and it's very
37:36
Speaker 1: dangerous and it's very scary, and I think we need
37:38
Speaker 1: to be aware that there are those forces at work
37:41
Speaker 1: in our lives. They're just like you know, showing everything
37:45
Speaker 1: else is shiny and bright and beautiful, and that means
37:48
Speaker 1: I guess the message to me is I'm not enough.
37:50
Speaker 1: I'm not as good as, or as smiley as, or
37:54
Speaker 1: as talented as.
37:55
Speaker 3: Because I'm saying stussful as yeah, yeah.
37:57
Speaker 1: All the social media stuff that drives that kind of mentality,
38:00
Speaker 1: and collectively, I love what you said about a parent
38:04
Speaker 1: or even you as a friend. Listening with your heart, meaningful,
38:10
Speaker 1: heartfelt connections create a pathway that you can affect each
38:16
Speaker 1: other's default mode network. And if you're listening with your
38:20
Speaker 1: heart and you hear and see who that person's default
38:26
Speaker 1: mode network is beating them up. We don't say it
38:29
Speaker 1: that way, but we say she's really hard on herself,
38:32
Speaker 1: and then you speak to that person with the words
38:36
Speaker 1: of your heart. Hey, I just want you to know
38:40
Speaker 1: that you're beautiful and you are enough, and you'll always
38:43
Speaker 1: be my friend. There's no conditions on that. You just
38:47
Speaker 1: healed part of her default network. You heal the part
38:50
Speaker 1: of that person that has that dialogue. And I want
38:55
Speaker 1: to just encourage parents to do this to their children.
39:00
Speaker 1: As a father, I didn't understand love very well before,
39:05
Speaker 1: but as a father, you're given a special opportunity to
39:08
Speaker 1: really create some of these hopeful, positive, good dialogues in
39:15
Speaker 1: your children. And if you're watching and you're paying attention
39:19
Speaker 1: and you're connecting with them, there are moments when I'm like, no, honey,
39:23
Speaker 1: look at me, look at me. I need you to know.
39:28
Speaker 1: But as your father, I see you, and I love you,
39:32
Speaker 1: and I want you to know that you're beautiful and
39:34
Speaker 1: incredible and smart and strong and you need to know that.
39:38
Speaker 1: And even as I say it, she might look away,
39:42
Speaker 1: right and I say, honey, I need you back here,
39:46
Speaker 1: and I need you to know this and I need
39:47
Speaker 1: you to feel it, and not that I need you
39:50
Speaker 1: to believe it. But I'm going to tell you again.
39:53
Speaker 1: And you can believe me or not, but I'm going
39:55
Speaker 1: to tell you again. And that is truly speaking deeply
39:59
Speaker 1: in a soul, a soul way to their default mode
40:03
Speaker 1: network still up to them to believe it. There may
40:06
Speaker 1: be something in the way to them believing it, and
40:09
Speaker 1: that's the deep work that I'm talking about with that
40:12
Speaker 1: I had to discover even personally figuring out, well, why
40:19
Speaker 1: why don't I believe that? For years I didn't take compliments. Well,
40:24
Speaker 1: I just didn't do it. I was like, Nah, that's
40:25
Speaker 1: somebody else. That's like I would evade them. No, that's
40:30
Speaker 1: somebody else. That's not No, no, no, no, that's that's
40:33
Speaker 1: not it. I wouldn't just say thank you, that's very kind.
40:37
Speaker 3: I wouldn't.
40:38
Speaker 1: I wouldn't let it come in right. That is a
40:41
Speaker 1: dysregulated existence. It's it's there's something else in your default
40:46
Speaker 1: mode network. And for me figuring this out, which I
40:53
Speaker 1: only recently did, was a little guy that's believed when
40:58
Speaker 1: I was young because my parents, it's used to fight
41:01
Speaker 1: a lot and talk to me about divorce and abandoned
41:06
Speaker 1: men and use that again. And it was a mess.
41:08
Speaker 1: It was just a lot of psychological trauma. I started
41:11
Speaker 1: to believe and be afraid. I was afraid. I was
41:15
Speaker 1: afraid of loss, I was afraid of hurt, I was
41:18
Speaker 1: afraid of I was angry at it.
41:21
Speaker 3: I was.
41:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, just a lot of deep, heavy emotions around my
41:28
Speaker 1: sense of who I am, and that little guy wasn't
41:31
Speaker 1: worthy of any of those compliments because I needed to suffer.
41:36
Speaker 1: I needed to feel those painful moments and stay in
41:39
Speaker 1: them because it's who I am. And for years I
41:44
Speaker 1: didn't see it. I didn't even look at it. It
41:46
Speaker 1: was just who I am. And more recently, in a
41:51
Speaker 1: deeply meditative state, I was able to see that, and
41:58
Speaker 1: in fact, I wanted to go camping with my family.
42:02
Speaker 1: My family decided to do other things, and I got
42:06
Speaker 1: very emotionally dysregulated. It's normal for a dad to want
42:10
Speaker 1: to go and hang out with these kids, that's normal stuff.
42:12
Speaker 1: But to have a total like I didn't blow up.
42:16
Speaker 1: I just left and went on a walk and I
42:17
Speaker 1: came back and I said, there's something here, babe.
42:19
Speaker 3: I don't.
42:20
Speaker 1: I was just super, super hurt by this ongoing in
42:24
Speaker 1: my home and it's not proportionate to what's appropriate. And
42:28
Speaker 1: there's something else there and I don't know what it is.
42:31
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go hunt mushrooms and figure it out. So
42:33
Speaker 1: here I am deeply meditative. And as I'm hunting mushrooms,
42:37
Speaker 1: you can't be in your head. You're just like feeling
42:39
Speaker 1: and searching and seeking, and so it's a deeply meditative process.
42:44
Speaker 1: And there's the MDR involved because you're search scanning the ground,
42:47
Speaker 1: and it's to me, it's it's mental wellness. I think
42:50
Speaker 1: it's processed of quieting your default mode network. I just
42:54
Speaker 1: started poking around and saying, what is that? Why is that?
42:57
Speaker 1: And it was given to me that to know that
43:01
Speaker 1: it was that little hurt guy over there, right, that
43:04
Speaker 1: was just reacting to abandonment. He felt abandoned, he felt alone,
43:10
Speaker 1: and it caused you to emotionally just regulate and maybe
43:14
Speaker 1: maybe we need to look at that guy, and maybe
43:16
Speaker 1: we need to heal that guy. And so I kind
43:20
Speaker 1: of just envisioned that healing process, just like, hey, little Jenny,
43:25
Speaker 1: like you're hurting over there, and you feel unloved and
43:29
Speaker 1: abandoned and sad and unworthy and all these things and
43:35
Speaker 1: shame and guilt and fear, and let's just feel that
43:38
Speaker 1: with some love and light, let's just bring you out
43:41
Speaker 1: of that mess. And it was this deeply healing event
43:45
Speaker 1: in my life. And as I came out away from
43:49
Speaker 1: that mountain, my default mode network was so much more appropriate.
43:54
Speaker 1: And as I share this story with people, it is
43:58
Speaker 1: the integration that I need to believe something different, right
44:02
Speaker 1: Like I'm sharing this story with you. It's my heart.
44:05
Speaker 1: It's something that was hard for me to overcome that
44:08
Speaker 1: I looked at and was able to heal. But it's
44:12
Speaker 1: not done. You really have to rescript the default mode network,
44:16
Speaker 1: which will take time. But keep working the equation, keep
44:20
Speaker 1: telling people about it. And so I've told a few
44:22
Speaker 1: friends and I've talked to my wife about it, and
44:25
Speaker 1: it is changing the way I believe and feel about myself.
44:31
Speaker 1: And now I can look someone in the eyes when
44:33
Speaker 1: they say, hey, doc, thank you so much. You're an
44:36
Speaker 1: amazing doctor, and say hey, thank you for that. I
44:39
Speaker 1: don't have to look away and feel shame because I'm not. That.
44:43
Speaker 1: It changes all the little interactions, all the little things,
44:46
Speaker 1: and it's just a beautiful healing journey that we're all on,
44:51
Speaker 1: really on this earth of figuring out what are the
44:55
Speaker 1: scripts from the default mode network? Yes, but is there
44:59
Speaker 1: something deeper that we need to heal and start just
45:04
Speaker 1: in order to start believing something different about that default
45:07
Speaker 1: mode network? And I think that's where the therapists want
45:12
Speaker 1: people to get. They want them to get there. I
45:15
Speaker 1: don't know that therapy would have been a great venue
45:18
Speaker 1: for me. I needed to be meditating and breathing and
45:23
Speaker 1: maybe breath work and therapy, yes, And you know, I
45:28
Speaker 1: think I don't. I'm a fan of therapy. I think
45:30
Speaker 1: that's beautiful. Psychotherapy is lovely, helped and healed so many people.
45:36
Speaker 1: But getting to the root of the reason why we
45:40
Speaker 1: believe that about ourselves, the reason why we've scripted that
45:43
Speaker 1: into our default mode network. That's heavy work. That's the
45:47
Speaker 1: heavy work I just did. And it's not easy, super easy.
45:52
Speaker 2: But I'm sure worth it. Like I think there's probably
45:57
Speaker 2: people who stand on the edge of the change, and
46:01
Speaker 2: there's almost this sense of staying it's predictable, to stay
46:06
Speaker 2: in the path you've always known. Like, sure, there's some
46:08
Speaker 2: downsides of the way I think right now, but almost
46:11
Speaker 2: as fear of what could be once you open up
46:14
Speaker 2: that space. How do you feel like it's shown up
46:18
Speaker 2: in like how you feel about yourself now? Like you've
46:23
Speaker 2: mentioned how it has shown up with other people and
46:25
Speaker 2: giving you compliments, But do you feel like it's changed
46:30
Speaker 2: even the way that you get up in the morning
46:32
Speaker 2: and you think about your life.
46:34
Speaker 1: It's incredible. I think healing some of these inner working
46:38
Speaker 1: spaces that we can't see. I think that it affects
46:43
Speaker 1: all aspects of our lives, and they're subtle. It's really subtle.
46:49
Speaker 1: Like I didn't know that I had any problem.
46:52
Speaker 3: I didn't know.
46:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just had certain patterns in my life, like
46:58
Speaker 1: I would do a lot of escaping behavior, like whether
47:01
Speaker 1: it's a game or it's a novel or it's a whatever,
47:05
Speaker 1: there's lots of escaping patterns that folks use to like
47:09
Speaker 1: doom scrolling. There's And I didn't realize that I was
47:13
Speaker 1: trying to self medicate, right, and because I wasn't happy
47:17
Speaker 1: with that little guy, because I was part of me
47:21
Speaker 1: and I had to heal it. And now I thought
47:26
Speaker 1: it was a maturity thing. I'm like, I must be
47:28
Speaker 1: so immature, Like why am I still playing these studio
47:30
Speaker 1: video games? Or why am I still? Why am I
47:32
Speaker 1: you know? For why am I not present?
47:35
Speaker 3: You know?
47:35
Speaker 1: Why am I not connecting meaningfully with those around me
47:38
Speaker 1: as much as I want to? And so yeah, it's
47:41
Speaker 1: it allows me to show up differently and to interact
47:45
Speaker 1: differently and to connect differently.
47:48
Speaker 3: And it's beautiful.
47:50
Speaker 1: It's only had for if I'll let you know, if
47:52
Speaker 1: I can keep it, I feel like I'm there now,
47:54
Speaker 1: But I think it is a maintenance thing. Like you said,
47:57
Speaker 1: it's a beautiful work to continue to work in these basis,
48:00
Speaker 1: keep it up.
48:01
Speaker 3: You got to keep working, right because you.
48:02
Speaker 1: Might have a tendency to fall back into that, right,
48:05
Speaker 1: we got to go back and heal it again, right.
48:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's what those moments. I think even
48:12
Speaker 2: you sharing that like they're the moments you feel alive,
48:14
Speaker 2: like they're the moments that make all of this worthwhile.
48:18
Speaker 2: Is those times where you can feel things. I think
48:22
Speaker 2: there's so much culture right now of just moving and
48:26
Speaker 2: action and efficiency that we forget the important thing is feeling,
48:30
Speaker 2: like feeling connected to our loved ones and feeling joy,
48:34
Speaker 2: and that takes time, that takes space to be able
48:37
Speaker 2: to do that, and I think we don't allow that anymore.
48:42
Speaker 2: We don't allow feeling to happen. And so you taking
48:45
Speaker 2: time to be in the mountains and be by yourself
48:47
Speaker 2: and really process some of this has allowed you to
48:51
Speaker 2: feel in a different way than you did previously, which
48:54
Speaker 2: is what we're all seeking for.
48:57
Speaker 1: We got to reconnect with our hearts and the elephant,
49:01
Speaker 1: if you will, and kind of quiet the ant, put
49:04
Speaker 1: them away for a while and let's just feel and
49:08
Speaker 1: let's connect to that space. And I think if you
49:11
Speaker 1: talk to people who have done like psilocybin or MDMA
49:14
Speaker 1: or DMT, you know you have folks that are deeply
49:20
Speaker 1: connecting to those spaces kind of chemically, and it is
49:25
Speaker 1: like life changing for them. They're like, I didn't know
49:29
Speaker 1: I could change my default mode network. I didn't know
49:33
Speaker 1: that I could actually stop believing that about myself, and
49:37
Speaker 1: now that I have, it's like total game change or
49:40
Speaker 1: the rest of my life, like like significant significant change,
49:44
Speaker 1: like you with the ketemine, with like challenging that and
49:48
Speaker 1: feeling no, actually like I am worthy of love and
49:54
Speaker 1: I do want to just express love to other people
49:56
Speaker 1: and it can be without conditions, right and hmm, that's
50:01
Speaker 1: kind of neat. And then just keep working on continue
50:05
Speaker 1: to believe that, right. Yeah, Holly, thank you so much.
50:09
Speaker 1: This has been a fun discussion about the default mode network.
50:12
Speaker 1: To our listeners. I hope that you learned some cool
50:14
Speaker 1: stuff today. I hope that the deep work that we
50:18
Speaker 1: discussed today you might look at consider if your emotional
50:22
Speaker 1: emotionally disregulated anxiety, depression, insomnia, frustration, anger, outbursts, Like there's
50:28
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of emotional disregulated states and then consider
50:33
Speaker 1: working on it. Look at it, challenge it, write down
50:37
Speaker 1: your default mode network, What do I think about myself?
50:40
Speaker 1: How are there deep spots that are enmeshed and ingrained?
50:44
Speaker 1: And who I believe I am That might I might challenge,
50:47
Speaker 1: I might consider maybe that's not true, and then work
50:52
Speaker 1: with some folks and do some things to try to
50:54
Speaker 1: rescript that, because it's not easy.
50:57
Speaker 2: Holly, thank you, yeah, thanks for having me
51:02
Speaker 1: Stop