Latest / Martyr's Row / Ep. 24 - Did Jonah Go to Hell?

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Ep. 24 - Did Jonah Go to Hell? · Martyr's Row

• 0:00
  Polycarp, a faithful bishop of Smyrna and follower
• 0:04
  of the apostles, was martyred around the year
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  155 A .D. during a time of persecution under
• 0:11
  the Roman procouncil Statius Quadratus. He was
• 0:15
  arrested for refusing to worship the Roman emperor
• 0:18
  as a god. Polycarp, though old in years, stood
• 0:23
  firm and said, Eighty and six years have I served
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  Him, and He has done me no wrong. How then can
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  I blaspheme my King and Savior? For this He was
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  sentenced to be burned, but when the fire would
• 0:41
  not touch Him, He was finally killed by a sword,
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  dying as a true and faithful martyr of Christ.
• 1:07
  So the Pope There's a There's a guy in there.
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  There's one The new guy the new guy can we still
• 1:17
  call him the new guy? I think so. I mean, it's
• 1:20
  like Maybe I don't know. I feel like your first
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  like 90 to 180 days still like your trial period.
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  Yeah Yeah, cuz it's like he's on the free trial
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  Yeah, they still have a bit the ability to kick
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  him out I don't think that's true. Can they?
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  I don't think they can kick him out, can they?
• 1:39
  Well, the thing is, most popes don't, they don't
• 1:44
  get, I mean, I guess they could be excommunicated.
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  So there's actually some interesting stuff about
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  that. I feel like there's gotta be a way for
• 1:51
  them to do it, but it's gotta be pretty extreme.
• 1:53
  Yeah, or they just do it quietly. That's true.
• 1:56
  Which is part of the conspiracy of the last one.
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  He died. Yeah. Which honestly is probably the
• 2:02
  easiest way to get anybody out of office. It
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  makes sense. Yeah. They can't put up a fight.
• 2:08
  RIP JFK. Dang. And Lincoln. Yeah. And almost
• 2:15
  Trump. Actually kind of interesting, it's amazing
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  how many assassination attempts there are on
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  presidents. Oh yeah. But there's really only
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  a couple that we hear about and those are usually
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  the successful ones. Yeah. Those are usually
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  hard to miss. Yeah. Yeah, it's true because I
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  mean they they did it they did it miss. Yeah,
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  they did We've talked a little bit about the
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  Catholic Church and to be honest like we we probably
• 2:40
  need to do like a from a modern Protestant view
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  historical rundown of yeah, because I think I've
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  even said things like yeah, the Catholic Church
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  like held it together for like 15 years, but
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  the truth is For 15 years, 1 ,500 years. Over
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  15 years. The truth is it's really more like
• 2:58
  15 years. Because there was like so much, there
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  was so much people went back and forth on. Yeah,
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  that's true. For a long time. Yeah. So, yeah,
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  and like... Well, I guess when I think of hold
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  it together, I think of like, well, they were
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  the figure that was kind of representing Christianity
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  at the time. Yeah, but for not as long as I thought.
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  Oh, really? Yeah, because... How long? Well,
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  I mean, theoretically, you have... The common
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  idea is that the East and the West split around
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  1 ,050 AD. So at most 1 ,000 years, which is
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  a long time. It is a long time. But the church
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  has been around for 2 ,000 years. Yeah. So only
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  50 % of the last. And then when did Martin Luther
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  split? 1500. Okay. So really for 500 years it
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  was... the Holy Roman Catholic Church. Yeah,
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  but then you have the Celtics. That's true. You
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  have the Ethiopians. You have these branches.
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  And that kind of exists also at the same time
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  as the Catholic Church. True. Yeah, that's true.
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  Because they have a bunch of stuff preserved
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  for a long time. The whole thing about are they
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  holding the Ark of the Covenant? There's an interesting
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  theory about that. There's tradition in that.
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  There's also a lot of random traditions. One
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  of the things I don't think we talked about When
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  we talked about John the Baptist as a potential
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  martyr, he is a saint of the Catholic Church,
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  but talking about him as the final prophet and
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  the first martyr, that concept, there are still
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  followers of John the Baptist. Really? Yeah,
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  so like to this day, there are still people that
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  follow the teachings of John the Baptist. Interesting.
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  Yeah, because there's not that much. Right. So
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  like that's kind of the interesting... It's a
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  quick study. Yeah, because well, and in the synoptic
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  Gospels, we see that John the Baptist had followers.
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  He had disciples. Yeah. So that's why there's
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  some confusion there of like, are you a follower
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  of John the Baptist? Are you a follower, you
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  know? So like you have a little bit of that.
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  And because you also have like you have Judas
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  Maccabeus. And then not that long after Jesus,
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  there's another so -called Messiah, Jewish Messiah,
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  who was more like Judas, the Maccabees, where
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  it was like a zealot, what they thought Jesus
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  was gonna be. Also, did you know that Judas Maccabeus
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  also rode in on a donkey? I didn't know that,
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  actually. Yeah, but he did it in a military way.
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  No way. Yeah, so it's like the humble idea of
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  Jesus coming in on a donkey. It's not that it
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  hadn't been done before. Right. Because it's
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  part of the prophecy. And also, it's not like
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  a new thing to Judaism. Correct. It's also a
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  royal steed. Right, and that's what I mean, because
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  that was the whole thing with Solomon, wasn't
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  it? Or who was it? I don't know. I have to...
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  That would be hard for me to pull. I can't remember
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  who it was. It was one of the, one of the sons
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  of David. That was his way of like proclaiming
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  like I'm the new king. It might have been Asylum.
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  You might be right about that. Yeah. Cause they
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  put him on a donkey and had him ride through
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  the town and had everyone declare like, oh, he's
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  our king. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's what, that's
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  what Roman emperors did, but they did it on a
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  white horse. Yeah. which is funny because that's
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  like the language that we get from Jesus' second
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  coming. Yes. Is like riding in on a white horse.
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  And the symbolism is that's the conquering horse.
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  And he has a sword. Yes. So like that's what
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  would have happened in the Roman world is there's
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  a new emperor or there's a new Caesar and they
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  ride through on white horses and they basically
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  say, repent for the day the Lord is at hand.
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  That's like what they would have said. Yeah,
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  and if you don't, then they'll... They just cut
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  your head off. Cut your head off. Yeah. Which
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  is kind of crazy. So, like, there's all that
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  history. But then, like, okay, so the popes.
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  Yeah. Well, it's actually interesting, because
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  they were very influential with the royalty at
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  the time, with kings. Well, so that kind of comes
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  into play. And there was this power struggle
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  between the two of them. Yeah, but that happens
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  over time. Yeah. So, like, for, like, I think
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  a good 500 years? the church is its own thing
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  right and then you start to get this movement
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  into like the church in rome yeah um and the
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  the because initially you essentially have the
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  way that the apostles set up the church structure
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  with the elders and then some to teach, some
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  as apostles. Like you go through all of those,
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  some to teach, and it goes through all those
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  ministries and everything was broken out into
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  kind of council leadership. And in some ways,
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  it's also the idea of there's leadership over
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  multiple churches. So we even see that when we
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  look back on Revelation and the seven churches
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  in the Asia Minor. It's like there wasn't really
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  a guy. It was like there was always the apostles.
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  And then Peter is the, he's essentially the lead
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  of the church in Jerusalem. So then that's how
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  it was. It was like there was a pastor of each
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  area. and then the apostles going out to establish
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  churches. So there's not like a guy. Right. And
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  that happens for like a long time. And then eventually
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  really Rome is where like the guy who's over
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  the church in Rome just kind of starts to decide
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  like this is mine now. Yeah. I'm the ultimate
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  one. Do listen to me now. Yeah. Yeah. And that's
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  where you start to get the split like later on.
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  Yeah. But I thought that this was interesting.
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  So there's some controversy and there's some
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  like questions around the pope and the funny
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  thing is is like with anything there's like quick
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  news cycles so like at this point in the world
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  and with how much information and data we have
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  even stuff that like we're not even really supposed
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  to know about like we don't hold on to information
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  for very long and it might be shocking for a
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  moment but then it's just like yeah I mean, we
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  forget about it by the weekend most of the time.
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  Which is why I think, like we've talked about
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  this a little bit, it's why I think we're moving
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  away from a culture where there can exist things
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  like atheism or a denial of gods. Because I think
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  what... I think what's gonna eventually happen
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  is you're just gonna start accepting all of these
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  things. And eventually it's just gonna be like,
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  our world is gonna shift very quickly. And you're
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  just gonna be like, oh yeah, the CIA had a, they
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  ran operations where they were remotely viewing
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  into other parts of the world. Yeah, that's just
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  something that happens. It's like, meh. Like,
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  no one's really talking about it anymore. Well,
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  I think that's the interesting thing with, even
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  when we look back at decades, and it's like,
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  oh, like the 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s, and even if
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  you go back further than that, it's like they
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  all have this iconic thing about them. And then
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  I feel like it's gotten harder and harder to
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  pin down what those things are. And it's because
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  trends move so quickly. Right. Yeah, I mean,
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  you think about even with like... the 90s, it's
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  like, it's easy to be like, oh yeah, there's
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  that huge thing that happened or this huge thing
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  that happened. I mean, even we talk about like
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  pogs. It's like that wasn't like over in a month.
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  Well, and that's why like they used to make like
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  world books. Yeah. And yearbooks. Yeah. So like
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  they used to literally make yearbooks for like
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  the globe. Yeah. Like these are the major things
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  that happened. And that was the way that you
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  learned about stuff. Right. Yeah. And the truth
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  is, is like they could still do that. Yeah. The
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  problem is to be like, I actually don't think
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  it would be that much more information. You're
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  just getting a lot of localized information.
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  Well, I think that's what it is is because at
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  that time it was harder for information to travel
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  quickly. That's true. It took a long time for
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  it to seep into the whole world. Yeah. So trends
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  lasted a lot longer because everyone was getting
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  into it slowly. Yeah. And then by the time someone
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  else is dying out over here, this person's new
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  and excited about it and invent something new
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  about it. And they're like, oh, now I'm re -interested
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  in it. But now it's like, oh, within two weeks,
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  everyone's already explored every possibility
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  of it. So then it's like, all right, time to
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  move on to the next thing. Which is why it's
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  hard to believe that back in the day when communication
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  wasn't that quick, we can look back on it now
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  and see that inventions were happening in different
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  parts of the world without them knowing that
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  they were having breakthroughs at the same time,
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  which is such a wild idea, that on the other
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  side of the world, somebody is having the same
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  type of breakthrough technologically, which is
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  interesting. But I decided I was gonna do this,
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  because I feel like there's like some controversy
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  around Leo. Yeah. Right? And every pope chooses...
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  Because he's from Chicago, that's... Yeah, he's
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  part of the Obama family. I don't know if anybody
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  said that. They probably will. Probably. But...
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  The cool thing is like every pope chooses their
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  name. Yes, and there's like a long lineage of
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  like essentially if if a pope chooses their name
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  They tend to do it in regard to the last person
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  that held that name. Mm -hmm Meaning like if
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  we're gonna take an equivalent of that in a presidency
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  if you're like, all right I'm gonna take on a
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  name and you're like, all right. I'm gonna take
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  on the name Clinton Then you would be making
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  the statement that you're gonna run the government,
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  like the Clinton that came before you. Or at
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  least in the spirit of. So the popes actually
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  do this. Which part of the reason why - I mean,
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  a lot of the royal families do this as well.
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  True. And even, rest your soul, Queen Elizabeth.
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  It's like that wasn't her actual name. That was
• 13:08
  the name that she chose. Really? I'm pretty sure.
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  I don't know. I'm like 75 % sure about that now,
• 13:14
  since you questioned it. Well, I just assumed
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  the royal family, they just named them royal
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  names. Oh, no, they eventually choose their name.
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  Or they have the option to, I should say that.
• 13:24
  OK, that makes sense. Yeah. I mean, that kind
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  of happens, too, when you get married. You can
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  kind of choose your name. The fact is, you can
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  actually do that at any point in your entire
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  life. Yeah, we could go change our names right
• 13:34
  now. You can also just do it - Well, they're
• 13:36
  closed right now. Yeah, because it's 4 a .m.
• 13:40
  Yeah, in a couple hours. But, I mean, you can
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  also just choose your name and make people call
• 13:46
  you that without legally changing it. That's
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  true, yeah. We can do whatever we want, Paul.
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  We live in America. It's America. One of the
• 13:56
  things I thought was interesting is I was like,
• 13:58
  all right, Pope Leo, isn't Leo part of his name
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  already? Like it's part of his birth name. I
• 14:06
  think it's his brother. Isn't his brother's name
• 14:08
  like Louis or something? His brother's name is
• 14:10
  Louis. I think so. Maybe I should have looked
• 14:12
  this up. I can't remember what his actual name
• 14:14
  is. Well, I'll look it up. OK, cool. Because
• 14:18
  that would make sense. Because obviously his
• 14:24
  name is Leo. It's gonna be hard to find that.
• 14:30
  I love that we can look it up though. Popes?
• 14:32
  Nope. What's the Pope name? Here, you talk to
• 14:35
  the people. Hello people. No, it is interesting
• 14:40
  though. I think the one question that I would
• 14:42
  have for him is how quickly can you look at the
• 14:45
  books? How quickly does he have to wait before
• 14:48
  he can read the books? Cause I haven't talked
• 14:51
  about these for many episodes and it's like,
• 14:53
  I just want to read. I just want to see it. Oh,
• 14:55
  okay. This makes it even better. Yeah. I'm with
• 14:57
  you on that. That just goes back to like, we
• 15:00
  want to become Catholic before we go to the Vatican.
• 15:03
  Just so I can just get my hand on a couple of
• 15:05
  books. So he was Cardinal Robert Prevost. Okay.
• 15:10
  So not Leo at all. I think his brother's name
• 15:13
  is Louis or Louie. Okay. Well, that's not Leo.
• 15:17
  No. But it's closer, it's in the same family.
• 15:19
  Starts with an L. Yeah. And it's got an O. But
• 15:23
  I decided to do this really quick. An O. I'm
• 15:27
  gonna do this really quick, okay? I'm gonna speed
• 15:30
  through this. Speed. Okay, so he is Leo the...
• 15:36
  14th? Yes, Leo the 14th. Which means there's
• 15:42
  13 Leos that came before him. Leo the Great.
• 15:45
  is the first Leo, Pope Leo the first. And he
• 15:49
  was the pope from 440 to 461 AD. Dang, okay.
• 15:55
  440 to 461 AD. Huh. So the first one was, yeah.
• 16:01
  So his theological leadership, he authored the
• 16:05
  Tome of Leo, which was a pivotal at the Council
• 16:07
  of Chalcedon, Chalcedon? in 451, affirming the
• 16:14
  dual nature of Christ as both human and divine.
• 16:17
  So he was the one that affirmed that theological
• 16:20
  viewpoint. Oh, interesting. Yeah, and he strengthened
• 16:25
  the role of the papacy in both spiritual and
• 16:28
  temporal affairs, earning him the title, the
• 16:32
  Great. So that's the first one. The second one,
• 16:36
  Pope Leo II, was 682 to 683. So only a year.
• 16:41
  They're not making it very long. No, that's true.
• 16:45
  Yeah, the first one. The first one was like 20
• 16:47
  years. Yeah. Yeah. Second one was one year. And
• 16:50
  it says liturgical contributions and accomplished
• 16:53
  singer. Well, I would love if the pope kind of
• 16:56
  awesome was just like putting out YouTube videos
• 16:59
  of himself singing. That'd be awesome. That would
• 17:03
  be kind of just like. you know like in the theater
• 17:05
  in Rome you could like look up like dang there's
• 17:09
  the pope again. Pope's got pipes. Pope's got
• 17:12
  pipes. I want those pope pipes. That's on the
• 17:16
  t -shirt. That would be a great t -shirt. Pope's
• 17:21
  got pipes. He was an accomplished singer he promoted
• 17:25
  church music and enhanced the liturgical life
• 17:27
  of the church which is cool. and he condemned
• 17:31
  the monothelite heresies. It's got pipes and
• 17:36
  it's the pope singing. Okay, keep going. And
• 17:38
  he reinforced Orthodox Christology. So, let's
• 17:42
  jump to Pope Leo III. Okay. 795 to 816. So another
• 17:46
  20 -year run. Yeah, that's pretty good. I think.
• 17:48
  No, 10 -year. We can do math. He crowned Charlemagne
• 17:56
  as Holy Roman Emperor on Christmas Day in 800.
• 17:59
  That's kind of sick. A defining moment that shaped
• 18:03
  the medieval political landscape. Church -state
• 18:08
  relations. This act of him doing that established
• 18:11
  the precedent of papal authority in conferring
• 18:14
  imperial power, influencing the dynamics between
• 18:18
  the church and European monarchies. So, Pope
• 18:22
  Leo III establishes Charlemagne as the Holy Roman
• 18:25
  Emperor on Christmas Day, which is like a big
• 18:28
  deal. So that kind of establishes that blending
• 18:34
  and the influence of the church in the European
• 18:38
  monarchies. And then Pope Leo IV, 847 to 855.
• 18:43
  So these are a little bit closer. Defense initiatives,
• 18:46
  rebuilt and fortified Rome after Saracen raids,
• 18:51
  including constructing the Leonian wall around
• 18:56
  Vatican Hill. Military leadership. organized
• 18:59
  a coalition that achieved victory at the Battle
• 19:03
  of Ostia in 849, protecting Rome from further
• 19:07
  incursions. So now after that last Pope Leo,
• 19:12
  now you get to the Pope Leo IV, who's actually
• 19:14
  leading military battles. Which is crazy to think
• 19:17
  about. Very weird. So then Pope Leo V, 903 A
• 19:22
  .D. Brief papacy. He only got that one year.
• 19:26
  His reign lasted only a few weeks before he was
• 19:29
  deposed and imprisoned, leaving little time for
• 19:32
  significant contributions. So they called Pope
• 19:36
  Leo the brief. Pope Leo's briefs. That's all
• 19:41
  he wore. Yikes. In prison. So there was a pope
• 19:46
  that was imprisoned after just a few weeks. That's
• 19:49
  crazy. Bad choice, council. I kind of want to
• 19:51
  find out what he had to do. We can link that
• 19:53
  up later. Yeah, true. Pope Leo VI. Comment below
• 19:56
  what he did. Pope Leo VI, 928 to 929, limited
• 20:03
  impact due to the brevity of his papacy and the
• 20:07
  tumultuous period known as the Seicolum Obserum.
• 20:13
  Probably just the name of it made it short. He
• 20:15
  loved Harry Potter. Did I just cast a spell?
• 20:18
  I think so His contributions are not well documented
• 20:22
  So all I'm learning is that Pope Leo the 14th
• 20:26
  is gonna last like a month tops either that or
• 20:29
  he's gonna be a military leader. Yeah, true But
• 20:32
  not a great line of people. He also likes walls
• 20:35
  Pope Leo the 7th 936 to 939 Monastic support
• 20:43
  granted privileges to the monasteries, notably
• 20:46
  the Abbey of Cluny, fostering monastic reform.
• 20:50
  Interfaith policies took a nuanced approach to
• 20:53
  Jewish -Christian relations, forbidding forced
• 20:56
  conversions but allowing the expulsion of Jews
• 20:59
  who refused baptism. So basically at that point,
• 21:05
  so this is 936 to 939, he had a nuanced approach
• 21:10
  to the Jewish and Christian relationship. But
• 21:12
  he forbid forced conversions Making Jews become
• 21:17
  Christians. Yeah, but allowed the expulsion of
• 21:20
  Jews who refused baptism. That's interesting
• 21:22
  Yeah, so so what that kind of implies is like
• 21:26
  there must have been Jews in the church Yeah,
• 21:31
  which is interesting, but we won't get into that.
• 21:33
  No Pope Leo the 8th 963 to 965 controversial
• 21:40
  election His papacy is disputed due to the political
• 21:43
  turmoil of the time, with debates over the legitimacy
• 21:47
  of his election and actions. That's all we know
• 21:50
  about him. What a legacy to leave behind. Pope
• 21:54
  Leo IX, 1049 to 1054. Critical time. Why? Church
• 22:00
  reforms. He initiated significant reforms to
• 22:04
  address corruption, including combating semeny
• 22:08
  and enforcing clerical celibacy. East and West
• 22:12
  schism his papacy saw the formal split between
• 22:16
  the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches
• 22:19
  in 1054 That's interesting. Yeah, which he died
• 22:23
  in 1054 So it was the last thing he did So during
• 22:29
  Pope Leo the ninth is when you get the split
• 22:32
  of the Eastern Orthodox in the Roman Catholic
• 22:34
  Church. Yeah And then Pope Leo X, 1513 to 1521,
• 22:40
  Renaissance patronage known for his lavish support
• 22:43
  of the arts contributing to the cultural flourishing
• 22:46
  of the Renaissance. Sounds a little sketchy.
• 22:49
  His authorization of indulgence sales to fund
• 22:54
  St. Peter's Basilica construction was a key factor
• 22:57
  leading to Martin Luther's 35 theses and the
• 23:00
  Protestant Reformation. So this was interesting.
• 23:03
  So Pope Leo the 10th in 1513 to 1521 hit what
• 23:10
  Pope Leo the 10th did was Part of what sparked
• 23:15
  Martin Luther. Yeah to write his 95 theses Because
• 23:20
  isn't this crazy? It's like it's not building
• 23:22
  very well. No I'm gonna say what I think might
• 23:27
  happen next for when you finish. Wait wait, but
• 23:29
  But here's something crazy about that. So what
• 23:31
  he did was he wanted to fund rebuilding St. Peter's
• 23:37
  Basilica. So he actually came up with indulgences.
• 23:41
  And indulgences in the Catholic Church is still
• 23:43
  a practice that exists today. And basically what
• 23:46
  that means is if you have a family member that
• 23:50
  has passed away, you can actually pay for them
• 23:53
  to lower their time in purgatory. And purgatory
• 24:00
  is something that the Catholic Church believes
• 24:01
  is a waiting place to then go to heaven. And
• 24:05
  a lot of it's based off of how much bad stuff
• 24:07
  you did. Yeah, it's like you still gotta work
• 24:10
  out some more things where you're allowed to
• 24:11
  go. Yeah, and he just made up the idea of indulgences.
• 24:17
  And he did it in order to fund the renovation
• 24:22
  of St. Peter's Basilica. That's crazy, which
• 24:25
  was a key factor leading to Martin Luther's 95
• 24:27
  theses and the Protestant Reformation Isn't that
• 24:31
  nuts? So Pope Leo the 11th 1605 short reign his
• 24:37
  papacy lasted only common theme with these guys
• 24:39
  It is only well because the ones that don't are
• 24:42
  doing crazy stuff His his papacy lasted like
• 24:46
  think about that Pope Leo Was like one of the
• 24:50
  Pope there was the Pope Leo that was responsible
• 24:54
  for the split of Eastern Orthodox and the Roman
• 24:57
  Catholic Church. And then the other Pope Leo
• 25:00
  was responsible for what led up to the Reformation.
• 25:06
  So two major church splits out of the Catholic
• 25:09
  Church. And one of them's been to prison. Yes.
• 25:12
  Yeah, one of them was imprisoned after two weeks.
• 25:15
  What was he trying to do if that's what these
• 25:18
  guys were able to I don't know But and this isn't
• 25:21
  making stuff up. I mean, this is just like this
• 25:23
  is history. Yeah So Pope Leo the 11th 1605 his
• 25:28
  papacy lasted only 27 days earning him the nickname
• 25:31
  Papa Lampeau Lightning Pope. Is that real? That's
• 25:35
  what it says. I want that on the t -shirt Papa
• 25:37
  Lampeau Papa Lampeau. That's my new EP Papa Lampo,
• 25:42
  Pope's Got Pipes. I love it. That's the shirt.
• 25:45
  Okay, that's gonna be my next EP. Papa Lampo.
• 25:51
  Actually, that would be a great band name, by
• 25:52
  the way. That could be our Martyrs Road band
• 25:55
  name. That'd be sick. Papa Lampo. Means Lightning
• 25:58
  Pope. With minimal impact due to the brief tenure.
• 26:03
  I actually like that. That's crazy. Pope Leo
• 26:04
  the 12th. We're getting there, guys. 1823 to
• 26:08
  1829, conservative policies enforced strict moral
• 26:12
  codes and anti -Semitic laws, including prohibiting
• 26:16
  Jews from owning property. Yikes. So he literally
• 26:23
  prohibited Jews from owning property. Anti -Semitic
• 26:28
  much? The other guy's like, you don't want baptism?
• 26:30
  Out of here. The other guy's like, just out of
• 26:33
  here. Oh, and you can't own anything. Educational
• 26:38
  reforms, centralized education under church control,
• 26:41
  reflecting his traditionalist approach. All right,
• 26:45
  Pope Leo XIII. I actually haven't read this one,
• 26:50
  so I'm not sure what it's gonna say. 1878 to
• 26:53
  1903, social teaching pioneer. Issued the encyclical
• 26:59
  rarum navarum, addressing the rights of workers
• 27:03
  and laying the foundation for modern Catholic
• 27:05
  social teaching. intellectual engagement, promoted
• 27:09
  Thomistic philosophy and sought harmony between
• 27:13
  faith and reason, encouraging dialogue with contemporary
• 27:17
  science and culture. Not that bad. The problem
• 27:21
  is - That guy I feel like is more in line with
• 27:22
  the first Pope Leo. Let me ask this. This is
• 27:30
  crazy though. I just asked like notable things.
• 27:34
  So here's my first thought of like So does that
• 27:37
  mean that Pope Leo the 14th the guy running things
• 27:41
  these days Is he gonna be responsible for the
• 27:45
  actual fall of the Catholic Church? I mean some
• 27:50
  some say And I mean, he's got a track record
• 27:54
  at least the other Leo's do he's got to live
• 27:56
  up to that Yeah, what major split can he cause?
• 28:00
  Yeah, so Kind of interesting things about guys
• 28:03
  named Pope Leo. Yeah. Yeah, but I like it. It's
• 28:07
  interesting to think about and to know. It is.
• 28:11
  It'd be interesting for you, listener and viewer,
• 28:13
  to go look up Pope Leo XIII and see if you can
• 28:17
  find any dirt on him. I feel like they just got
• 28:22
  the hint. The closer they got, they were like,
• 28:27
  let's stop writing the bad stuff about him. Hang
• 28:30
  on. This is not good. But two pretty wild things
• 28:33
  that people are Popes that took the name Leo
• 28:37
  were responsible for the split between the Orthodox
• 28:40
  Church and the Roman Catholic Church, and responsible
• 28:44
  for creating indulgences, which is just a made
• 28:47
  up thing that eventually led to the 95 theses
• 28:52
  and the split into the Reformation. Yeah, they've
• 28:55
  got the world record for shortest reign as Pope.
• 28:58
  Actually, I don't know. I'd have to look up the
• 29:00
  other ones. It might be shorter. How can you
• 29:02
  beat a couple weeks? Yeah, I don't know. Yeah,
• 29:04
  that's true. But yeah, so that's the Pope's.
• 29:08
  That's fascinating. Pretty weird. Yeah. I like
• 29:10
  it, though. I do, too. It's kind of a fun history.
• 29:13
  Yeah. There we go. Three, two, one. Just kidding,
• 29:18
  breaking news, Pope Leo, Pope Leo the 13th, turns
• 29:25
  out there's a headline that says, he was the
• 29:28
  pope who loved cocaine wine. Pope Leo loved -
• 29:32
  How much did he love it? Pope Leo the 13th loved
• 29:35
  Mariani brand cocaine wine so much. that he decided
• 29:40
  he must meet and properly honor the man who invented
• 29:43
  it. He summoned Angelo Mariani to Rome and presented,
• 29:48
  how does Angelo Mariani not already live in Rome?
• 29:51
  And presented him with an official Vatican gold
• 29:54
  medal to congratulate him for a remarkable achievement
• 29:57
  in the field of cocaine ventany, ventery. You
• 30:02
  might think that that's crazy, except Angelino
• 30:05
  Mariani printed up posters advertising the gold
• 30:08
  medal he received from the Pope. The poster features
• 30:11
  a smiling image of Pope Leo, and next to his
• 30:15
  picture, there's a text which reads, not a text.
• 30:20
  They didn't have phones. Some text. There's some
• 30:21
  text that reads, Quotations. His Holiness the
• 30:25
  Pope writes that he has fully appreciated the
• 30:28
  beneficial effects of his tonic wine and has
• 30:31
  forwarded to Mr. Mariani as a token of his gratitude,
• 30:34
  a gold medal bearing his August effigy. That's
• 30:38
  right, the Pope himself knowingly appeared in
• 30:40
  a full page advertisement for cocaine wine. Three,
• 30:44
  two, one. Popes are wild. Popes are great. You
• 30:49
  gotta keep your eye on these people are wild
• 30:51
  like people are wild Yeah, and then some of them
• 30:53
  are the Pope Some of those people are the Pope
• 30:57
  Fair enough. So I want to do something a little
• 31:00
  bit different kind of like a I'm considering
• 31:03
  like a songwriting challenge for us. Okay, I
• 31:06
  like this I was like, let's actually like really
• 31:08
  go wild. So this I have no clue if it's gonna
• 31:11
  be good or bad and we're gonna find out as we
• 31:14
  go. It's up to us, I guess, right? Yeah. Let's
• 31:17
  do it. So, on our note, I wrote down, with the
• 31:23
  help, I actually had ChatGBT write most of it.
• 31:26
  Okay. So I actually don't know what it says.
• 31:28
  Oh, cool. I gave it a prompt and said, write
• 31:29
  me a verse and a chorus. A shared note? Yeah.
• 31:32
  Yeah, it should be down at the bottom. Okay.
• 31:35
  And so, yeah, I had it write it out. So you haven't
• 31:39
  read it. I haven't read it. So I want... There's
• 31:44
  several songs in here by the way, okay, this
• 31:47
  is at the very bottom Yeah, okay, you don't want
• 31:50
  to see it. No you wrote out a progression though.
• 31:53
  Mm -hmm. We're gonna write one right now. Wait,
• 31:55
  there's one underneath it Yeah, it's both of
• 32:02
  those okay one is the verse one's of course the
• 32:05
  progression underneath it is one Oh, no, that's
• 32:07
  not the progression. I know but It's one minor
• 32:12
  Two minor, three minor, four, five, six minor.
• 32:16
  I thought I deleted that. That would feel insane.
• 32:27
  Yeah, but then repeat it over and over again.
• 32:29
  I'm constantly going upstairs. So here's what
• 32:33
  I'm going to do. I've got this little surprise
• 32:35
  here. Actually, I'm going to set the guitar down.
• 32:37
  Okay. Okay. So should I not read this or should
• 32:40
  I, should this happen like in real time? I want
• 32:42
  it to happen in real time. Okay. Should I hold
• 32:44
  that? Cause you need to hold the guitar. So I'm
• 32:46
  going to have you pick four of these. Okay. And
• 32:51
  each of them, I've every, every, or you can little
• 32:55
  ASMR. Pretty cool. Yeah, so I was a money -changer
• 33:01
  I love my money Each one of these has a number
• 33:08
  written on it and some of the numbers are written
• 33:10
  multiple times. Oh, this is our progression This
• 33:12
  is our progression. So you're gonna pull four
• 33:14
  out. I thought we were gonna do like in the style
• 33:15
  of oh no, no, no So actually what's funny is
• 33:20
  there's a good chance we could pick one every
• 33:22
  time I love that. Or four every time. You just
• 33:26
  have to change the voicing. Yeah. Yeah. Just
• 33:29
  one with different voicing. So what's our first,
• 33:31
  what's our first chord? Do you want to do it
• 33:33
  one at a time? Yeah. Or do I just grab three?
• 33:35
  Let's just do one at a time. Okay. So option
• 33:38
  one is four. Okay. So the progression starts
• 33:41
  on a four. Four. Oops, we're losing them. That's
• 33:46
  fine. Progression two. Yeah, there's not, by
• 33:48
  the way, there's not this many. Oops. Chords
• 33:51
  no, I just wrote them down multiple times Second
• 33:54
  one is one. Okay, so you can see that for one
• 33:58
  for one Pretty normal. So pretty standard. So
• 34:01
  for one Did you put some weird ones in here to
• 34:06
  Is that a major to or minor to minor to you?
• 34:09
  Okay, or it could be major. I just put two so
• 34:11
  four one two. Yeah, I Don't hate it. No, I don't
• 34:16
  either get a five We need a five. It's gonna
• 34:20
  be a three. It's a five! Is it actually? Look
• 34:28
  at that. The Lord has smiled upon us. I don't
• 34:31
  know if you can see that. It may not be focusing.
• 34:33
  So we've got a four. Four, one, two, five. Are
• 34:39
  you okay in C? I can change the key. I don't
• 34:41
  know. We could be okay in any key. That's true,
• 34:44
  because we don't know what's gonna happen. No,
• 34:46
  we don't so I'll go And then you just want me
• 34:55
  to make up a melody go for it and this is chat
• 34:58
  GPT Yeah, okay. No clue. Wait, I did that backwards
• 35:02
  but the progression four one two five I've never
• 35:04
  even read this you haven't read so it could be
• 35:07
  heresy Okay, so I haven't even I've read like
• 35:10
  the first line. Okay, I've seen some keywords
• 35:14
  So let's just do it and see what happens. Let's
• 35:17
  go for it. Okay for one no turn around no turn
• 35:20
  no turnarounds We should have done a second going
• 35:24
  for the turn around No, it's just kidding It's
• 35:28
  gonna turn out of three. All right, so I'm real
• 35:31
  time Making up a melody with the lyrics chat
• 35:34
  GPT wrote. Yeah to them to the progression. We
• 35:37
  just picked out of a hat. Yeah Perfect. This
• 35:39
  is the fun challenge. I love it. I want to really
• 35:41
  mix it up. Okay. I feel like this is more of
• 35:43
  a challenge for me. You're just challenging me.
• 35:45
  That's true. I mean I can take part of it too
• 35:47
  if you want. No, this is my challenge. No! Let
• 35:50
  me have it! We could do that. Yeah. But you're
• 35:54
  also playing. That's true. And I feel like...
• 35:58
  It's cheating? You're gonna forget the progression
• 36:00
  in the middle of it. 100%. I've already forgotten.
• 36:04
  4125. Yeah, 4125. All right, let's go. Let's
• 36:08
  do it. Okay, cool. Here we go. Let me do it right.
• 36:35
  They sing while flames erase their flesh Still
• 36:42
  humming hymns we'll never know We speak in static,
• 36:51
  cracked and low A podcast from this modern Rome
• 36:59
  Trying to echo what they live With borrowed breath
• 37:08
  and microphones So here's to the martyrs, brave
• 37:15
  or unknown Lit up like lanterns when the sky
• 37:21
  had gone cold We honor their life, at least we
• 37:25
  try To thread their stories through Wi -Fi Their
• 37:30
  silence roars in a hum So we speak to their names
• 37:35
  We speak to their names On martyr's row On martyr's
• 37:46
  row On martyr's row We speak to their names On
• 37:56
  martyr's row We speak to their names We speak
• 38:04
  their names on martyr's row. We speak their names
• 38:07
  on martyr's row. We speak their names on martyr's
• 38:14
  row. Nice. I liked it. That was good. Thanks.
• 38:23
  That was great. There's some like sneaky things
• 38:27
  in there. Yeah. But I feel like we shouldn't
• 38:29
  redo this. No I actually like it. Okay. It's
• 38:32
  a one take wonder. Cool, should I explain anything
• 38:35
  I just did? Yeah, let's do it. So like one of
• 38:39
  the things I tried to do is I tried to like every
• 38:44
  two lines because it's one, two, three, four,
• 38:47
  five, six, seven, eight lines. Yeah, because
• 38:49
  one of the things I will say, I wanted to make
• 38:50
  it a little bit nicer for you and try to have
• 38:54
  like a natural rhythm and flow. It was one of
• 38:56
  the things that I put it in. It was like, make
• 38:57
  sure it rhymes. Yeah, that helped. Because then
• 39:00
  every two lines, I adjusted something. Yeah,
• 39:03
  yeah. And then so it made it kind of build. And
• 39:06
  then in the chorus structure, the front half,
• 39:10
  I left it kind of simple like the verses. And
• 39:13
  then the back half, I changed the pattern to
• 39:15
  make it go faster. Yeah. Because that's a really
• 39:19
  good double chorus concept. Which is cool. It's
• 39:21
  like you switch up the phrasing in the back half.
• 39:24
  And I was kind of expecting you to go there.
• 39:25
  OK. Which worked out well. Yeah. I was like,
• 39:28
  oh, he is doing it. The funny thing, though,
• 39:30
  is the last line says, so we speak their names
• 39:33
  on martyrs row. Yeah. Which is great. I kept
• 39:36
  saying we speak to their names, which is very
• 39:40
  Catholic of me. Well, it's it works out today,
• 39:44
  but I kept saying it over and over again because
• 39:46
  I'm like this is not correct What it like what
• 39:49
  am I and then finally that's when I was like
• 39:51
  we speak their names cuz I was like, oh there
• 39:53
  it is Yeah, we speak their names we don't speak
• 40:00
  to their names So that's like a little bit in
• 40:03
  the back. I like that. That's cool. I think the
• 40:06
  Yeah, I think that worked I think it worked out
• 40:08
  well. That was fun. I was like, yeah, let's not
• 40:09
  do it again. It was clean. We should try that
• 40:11
  a different time. Yeah, we can. Well, I can't
• 40:13
  do it again. It'll be a completely different
• 40:14
  melody. No, absolutely. Yeah. And the next time,
• 40:16
  you can challenge me with it. Let's do that.
• 40:18
  That'd be fun. Because I learned nothing, none
• 40:22
  of those melodies. No. So I can't recall any
• 40:25
  of them. And so the main reason I wanted to do
• 40:28
  that today, well, it doesn't matter what day,
• 40:30
  it's because I didn't have anything else today.
• 40:32
  I thought it'd be fun because it's like we usually
• 40:34
  come in with something. True. So it's like, let's
• 40:37
  come in with absolutely nothing. That's fun.
• 40:39
  But just a few things to make it, to give us,
• 40:41
  so we're not like writing it as we go. The props,
• 40:43
  yeah. Yeah, it's like, no, we just have to do
• 40:45
  it. I love it. Which is fun. That was fun. Yeah.
• 40:47
  Three, two, one. Hee hee. Tee hee. I don't know
• 40:53
  why that's such a funny thing. I think anybody
• 40:55
  making that sound is like, like, I don't know.
• 40:58
  Like you can't take it seriously. No. Because
• 41:00
  how do you start a laugh with a T sound? Tee
• 41:03
  hee. Tee hee. I actually knew someone who used
• 41:06
  to laugh that way. It couldn't have been real.
• 41:10
  I hope it wasn't. I mean, it's a lot of effort
• 41:14
  to make that sound. Yeah. Anyways, if you do
• 41:19
  that, you will for sure make yourself laugh.
• 41:22
  It's true. Teehee. If you just by yourself right
• 41:25
  now, wherever you are listening to this, just
• 41:27
  go. If you're in a bad mood, just teehee. You
• 41:29
  won't. Just have some teehee. Teehee. Teehee.
• 41:35
  That's like having some afternoon tea. Saying
• 41:38
  like hee hee ha ha for some reason is the funniest
• 41:41
  thing. Hee hee ha ha. Yeah. I don't know why
• 41:45
  I say that at work sometimes. Because it'd be
• 41:47
  like, what are you guys doing? Like we're just
• 41:49
  having a hee hee ha ha time. You know? Like why
• 41:54
  are you being so serious? We're trying to have
• 41:55
  a hee hee ha ha good time. It's so stupid. Yeah,
• 42:01
  but by the way, we should be as silly as possible.
• 42:04
  It's way more fun. It's so much more fun. Yeah.
• 42:06
  I mean, come on. Be serious. And then tee -hee
• 42:09
  a little bit. Make sure you have your afternoon
• 42:11
  tee -hee. Have your afternoon tee -hee. Take
• 42:15
  a little siesta. I'm just sitting around. This
• 42:18
  is my allotted tee -hee time. Oh, man. So what
• 42:23
  happens when you tee -hee a little bit too hard?
• 42:26
  You know what happens when you tee -hee a little
• 42:27
  too hard? What? On the wrong stop. On the wrong
• 42:30
  side of the road. Especially in the wrong side
• 42:33
  of the room. Oh yeah. You might see yourself.
• 42:36
  On what? Outside of your own body. Oh. What the?
• 42:39
  Up above your body. Yeah, you're like, whoa,
• 42:41
  whoa. Held together by a silver string. Yeah.
• 42:47
  For those that aren't watching, Paul's face turned
• 42:51
  like a dog that just heard a sound. He's like,
• 42:53
  oh. Hmm? What's that now? Did you say walk? His
• 42:56
  head made this sound. Hmm? Hmm? It's so funny
• 43:02
  I've always I've been told that when I hear something
• 43:05
  that's like what my head of is just Goes at a
• 43:09
  tilt like huh. Yeah, you're a little bit of a
• 43:10
  dog. Yeah Well, I you know, so um on our last
• 43:18
  episode previously But I never want to edit it
• 43:24
  Oh, yeah No, it's not that interesting. And time
• 43:29
  is limited on our... Also, you can just go back
• 43:31
  and listen to that one. Just go, you should listen
• 43:33
  to it. Or you already have and you're caught
• 43:35
  up. Yeah. And if you are caught up, good word.
• 43:39
  Oh. Because we just talked about NDEs. Yeah.
• 43:43
  Near -death experiences for those that don't
• 43:45
  know. Right. And could we say like near -death
• 43:48
  experiencers? Is that how you make it a proper
• 43:50
  noun? I think so. Okay. An experiencer of near
• 43:53
  death. Yeah, of almost dying. So I mean the big
• 43:57
  thing - And that's not like almost being dead,
• 43:59
  it's almost dying. Yeah. Which means finite.
• 44:02
  Yeah. So like - Yeah. It's not like you didn't
• 44:05
  die or the person didn't die, it's that they
• 44:08
  didn't stay dead. Yeah, essentially. Yeah, I
• 44:11
  think the word that a lot of people say it's
• 44:13
  like you were basically almost at clinical death.
• 44:16
  Right. So it wasn't like yes, it wasn't to the
• 44:20
  thing where it's like, oh I made this crazy jump
• 44:22
  and my heart's going crazy like man I could have
• 44:24
  died. It's like that's not near death. No, no,
• 44:27
  no near death is like oh, I'm actually like outside
• 44:29
  of my body Yeah, like I'm actually like my body
• 44:33
  is about to die. No near death is like it's there.
• 44:37
  Yeah, it's dead Yeah, but back to life. Yeah,
• 44:42
  so you don't stay that way Correct. So we talked
• 44:45
  about that on our last episode. We did. And so,
• 44:48
  you know, it got me thinking, especially because
• 44:50
  we talk about... Like on the last episode, we
• 44:55
  talked really more clinical. We did. We kept
• 44:58
  it very like more into like, what do people experience?
• 45:01
  What do they see? Defining things, yes. And one
• 45:03
  of the things that we... brought up was a lot
• 45:05
  of people have these very positive experiences,
• 45:07
  but there are people that have... Did you just
• 45:08
  have a near -death experience? Right. Your brain
• 45:10
  just shut off? It's just like... Yeah. It did.
• 45:15
  I was like, what was I about to say here? Paul
• 45:16
  got caught up for a second. I got caught up for
• 45:19
  a second. You saw that. That'll make sense later.
• 45:22
  So all the life disappeared. I was like, uh -oh,
• 45:25
  come back. Time to return. Here we are. Last
• 45:31
  episode. So on the last one, because we talked
• 45:32
  about, you know, there's all these positive experiences
• 45:34
  people have. Right. They talk about what they
• 45:36
  see. But there is a percentage of people that
• 45:39
  have a negative experience. Right. And so that
• 45:43
  got me thinking. OK. And so I have a question
• 45:46
  for you. OK. In the vein that it got me thinking.
• 45:49
  OK. So what we're saying is listen to the last
• 45:52
  episode to set up the category that we're going
• 45:54
  to speak into this episode. Yeah. OK. Yeah. Yeah,
• 45:59
  we talked about these experiences and kind of
• 46:00
  like what people see what they go through If
• 46:04
  I so I'll set it up again real quick. It's a
• 46:07
  little bit more. Yeah. Yeah And so yeah, we kept
• 46:09
  it very clinical and kept it way more like stats
• 46:12
  based, right? kind of like let's just be cold
• 46:15
  and As unbiased as we can here, but yes, we're
• 46:18
  storytellers. We'd like myth we like narrative.
• 46:22
  Yeah and so I'm like, okay, let me Let me try
• 46:26
  to attach these concepts to something that I
• 46:28
  know. Okay. And that brought me to this question.
• 46:31
  I love it. Yeah. So I have to answer it? And
• 46:34
  I feel like you're the best one to answer this
• 46:36
  question in the room. Okay. What you guys don't
• 46:41
  know is there's like at least a hundred people
• 46:44
  behind the camera. They're very quiet. So that
• 46:47
  qualifies me at a very high level. At least one
• 46:51
  out of a hundred. I guess out of a hundred and
• 46:53
  one. Dalmatians. 102? Yeah, 102. That's the sequel.
• 46:59
  I think it is actually the sequel, isn't it?
• 47:00
  The squeakle. What? They're not mice. I don't
• 47:06
  know how to say that. I was going to say, try
• 47:07
  to say bark. It doesn't work. It doesn't. That's
• 47:11
  why I didn't say it. That's why I said squeakle.
• 47:13
  Yeah, squeakle. I think that's chipmunks. Yeah.
• 47:16
  The chipmunks. Little squeak. Yeah, little squeak.
• 47:18
  Squeak. Squeakity. Squeakity. question, please
• 47:24
  so Looking at the Bible like we like to do on
• 47:27
  martyrs row. Yeah And thinking about near -death
• 47:30
  experiences, okay Okay Jonah Jonah big will Jonah
• 47:38
  big boy fish boy Jonah Call an ambulance, are
• 47:46
  you okay? Yeah, believe it or not. I am alive
• 47:50
  and breathing. I don't think Jonah was a fish.
• 47:52
  No Big boy well done. You know. Big boy well
• 47:57
  done. You know fishy fish boy. Fishy McPhisherson.
• 48:01
  Fishy McPhisherson. So Jonah. Jonah. From the
• 48:05
  Bible. I know him. Did he? Did Jonah. Okay. From
• 48:10
  the Bible. Yeah. Fish Jonah. Fishy McPhisherson.
• 48:14
  Did Jonah go to hell? Whoa. Whoa. Sorry, H -U
• 48:23
  double hockey stick. Little children listening.
• 48:26
  Did Jonah go to heck? Children crossing. Was
• 48:33
  Jonah X in his way? Was he jaywalking down to
• 48:41
  the lower parts? That's probably what got him
• 48:42
  there. The lower regions? That's somehow making
• 48:46
  it worse. Yeah, it is. So your question is what?
• 48:50
  Did Jonah go to hell? All right, so, NDEs, did
• 48:58
  Jonah go to hell? Well, I have an idea of where
• 49:01
  to start trying to unpack this question. And
• 49:04
  I know a lot of people are like, how does that
• 49:05
  even make sense and relate? Well, I'm gonna let
• 49:08
  you deal with that. Well, and so to be honest,
• 49:12
  I think the first thing I think of... The first
• 49:16
  think I thought. I don't think the thought that
• 49:19
  I did. I had a little think in the nog. My brain
• 49:22
  worked. Apparently we're both dead. It is 4 a
• 49:28
  .m., to be fair. But the thing I always think
• 49:32
  with biblical stories is there's a bunch of cartoon
• 49:36
  elements. So I always think of like, who's the
• 49:42
  tomato? Bob? That's such a good example of cultural
• 49:50
  context. It's true. The fact that I just said,
• 49:53
  who's the tomato? And you immediately said Bob.
• 49:56
  It's like, yeah. That's what we're talking about
• 49:59
  when we talk about cultural context in the Bible.
• 50:01
  It's pretty great. There's no way for him to
• 50:04
  know that unless we had similar backgrounds and
• 50:06
  grew up in a similar era. Anyways. Yeah. Similar,
• 50:10
  not similar, but yeah, anyways. Bob the tomato.
• 50:15
  I always imagine him like literally just sitting
• 50:18
  I guess on the tongue of the whale or just like
• 50:23
  in an empty belly, which apparently has no organs.
• 50:27
  Do you know what's funny about that to me? What?
• 50:29
  Is that you chose Bob the tomato, but VeggieTales
• 50:33
  did a Jonah movie. Wait. And it's the asparagus.
• 50:37
  That's in there? Yeah. Oh. Isn't he Jonah? I
• 50:40
  don't remember. I'm pretty sure it's the asparagus.
• 50:42
  The little asparagus guy? No, the big one. Oh,
• 50:45
  the dad? No, like their uncle, I guess. Maybe
• 50:52
  you're right. I think it is. Yeah. He wears the
• 50:56
  monocle. I just always assume it's it. Oh, I
• 50:58
  don't, maybe. I can't remember his name. He seems
• 51:01
  like a Jonah. Yeah. Jonah's a real stubborn guy.
• 51:03
  Big whiner. Yeah. Big old whiner Jonah. Big fish,
• 51:07
  big wine. Cocaine wine. Who do you do well with?
• 51:14
  The Pope with pipes. Pope Louis himself. Leo?
• 51:21
  Not Louis. So there's vegetables on this big
• 51:23
  fish's tongue. Which makes sense, I mean you
• 51:25
  would think a fish would eat vegetables. Like
• 51:28
  that kind of logic. By accident maybe. Anyways,
• 51:33
  I feel like we have all these images that we
• 51:35
  pick up over time. And like that is kind of an
• 51:38
  interesting concept But so yeah, so but when
• 51:41
  you say that like one of the things that that
• 51:43
  my mind goes to first is actually more of a New
• 51:45
  Testament reference This guy Jesus you ever heard
• 51:49
  of it. I've heard rumors. Yeah. Yeah and tails
• 51:52
  Well, he actually spoke at one point and said
• 51:54
  these yeah And he said in Luke 11 starting in
• 52:01
  verse 29, he said, when the crowds, well, he
• 52:04
  didn't say this part, but when the crowds were
• 52:07
  increasing, he began to say, he said this part,
• 52:11
  this generation is an evil generation. It seeks
• 52:15
  for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except
• 52:19
  the sign of Jonah. For as Jonah became a sign
• 52:23
  to the people of Nineveh, so will the Son of
• 52:26
  Man be to this generation. And then it talks
• 52:29
  about the Queen of the South, which we know as
• 52:33
  Dolly Parton. And then jumping down a few verses,
• 52:40
  it says, the men of Nineveh, in verse 32, the
• 52:42
  men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with
• 52:45
  this generation and condemn it, for they repented
• 52:48
  at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something
• 52:51
  greater than Jonah is here. So it makes me jump
• 52:55
  to that, because it's kind of a complete idea.
• 52:57
  Yeah, and I think we should also look at Jonah
• 52:59
  if we want to answer that question absolutely
• 53:01
  because I think in general when you say like
• 53:03
  Jonah Yeah, I just think like Jonah went into
• 53:07
  a well. He's like ah man like he's in a cave
• 53:10
  or something aren't it which is funny because
• 53:12
  like yeah all the depictions like all the the
• 53:16
  imagery and the movies and things like that is
• 53:18
  like, apparently whales don't have guts, they
• 53:20
  just have big empty cavernous stomachs. Just
• 53:22
  hang out in there. Yeah, you can just be in a
• 53:24
  whale for some reason. Even Geppetto's like,
• 53:26
  I'll go chill in a whale. I know, so that's an
• 53:28
  interesting one too. Pinocchio is like, all of
• 53:31
  a sudden, Geppetto's just in a whale. Yeah, he's
• 53:33
  like, yeah, I just... You ran away from home
• 53:35
  and I had to go hang out in a whale. So that's
• 53:37
  the thing, the setup of him getting into the
• 53:40
  whale doesn't make any sense. No. It's like he
• 53:43
  just turns a corner and falls into a whale. Yeah.
• 53:47
  But of course, like Disney, there's a bigger
• 53:50
  motif that's happening there. Yeah, but Disney
• 53:53
  always kind of removes those pieces. Yeah, but
• 53:56
  it actually perfectly lands with what we're talking
• 53:59
  about. It sure does. We'll hit that one later,
• 54:02
  because that's funny. Or fun to jump into. But
• 54:05
  here's the thing that's interesting. When we
• 54:07
  think about Jonah in the whale, or Jonah in the
• 54:11
  whale, then I want to go, like we go to this
• 54:15
  piece, which... Says something very specific
• 54:18
  that I think we jump over so it says this generation
• 54:21
  is an evil generation This is Jesus speaking
• 54:23
  again. It seeks for a sign, but no sign will
• 54:26
  be given to it except the sign of Jonah for as
• 54:30
  Jonah became a sign to the people of Nineveh
• 54:35
  So it doesn't say Jonah went and preached to
• 54:39
  Nineveh. Yeah, it said Jonah became a sign to
• 54:44
  the people of Nineveh. So he himself was the
• 54:47
  sign. He himself was the sign. Yeah. So that's
• 54:51
  like one of the things that you see with all
• 54:52
  of the Old Testament prophets, is the Old Testament
• 54:55
  prophets, they don't just preach. Right. They
• 54:58
  actually, God tells them to demonstrate before
• 55:01
  the people. Yeah. So over and over again, you
• 55:04
  see like, you see them do crazy things. I mean,
• 55:07
  you see that in every one of the minor prophets.
• 55:11
  Like they're told to begin to do something. Right.
• 55:13
  because that will be how they represent, the
• 55:16
  message God's trying to tell them. So he's hitting
• 55:18
  them from every angle. Like one prophet marries
• 55:21
  a prostitute representing Israel who has whored
• 55:26
  against the Lord with other gods. There's another
• 55:31
  one that has to lay on his side for 30 days.
• 55:35
  There's all these minor and major prophets that
• 55:39
  are doing these physical things. and people see
• 55:42
  this or they hear about it, and they're like,
• 55:46
  oh, that guy's kinda crazy, but they know him
• 55:48
  as the prophet, right? So it's interesting that
• 55:51
  when Jesus references Jonah, he says that Jonah
• 55:57
  became a sign to the people of Nineveh. And then
• 56:01
  later Jesus says, so will the Son of Man, Enoch
• 56:08
  much? be to this generation. So. There's a couple
• 56:15
  things that jump out to me in this, and I think
• 56:18
  this is where you're going, which is like, okay,
• 56:21
  so you won a sign, but the only sign you're gonna
• 56:22
  get is the sign of Jonah. It's like, okay, well
• 56:25
  what's the sign of Jonah? Like, by the way, Jonah
• 56:28
  became the sign. It's like, well what did he
• 56:30
  become? What is the sign? Yeah, which. him saying
• 56:35
  this, they would have understood what he's talking
• 56:37
  about. Yes, absolutely. Because otherwise he's
• 56:39
  just like talking way over there. Like this is
• 56:41
  not a parable. He's using a reference that they
• 56:44
  not only know, but they have studied and talked
• 56:47
  about for a long time. Yeah. So as he's as he's
• 56:51
  talking about this, it's just interesting to
• 56:52
  do that because I always think of Jonah. And
• 56:56
  when you read Jonah, I tend to think of Jonah
• 57:00
  more as. He's going to preach and he disobeys
• 57:03
  the voice of the Lord. And in the process of
• 57:06
  that, there's consequence to his disobedience.
• 57:11
  And then he finally writes his wrongs. And says,
• 57:15
  come to Jesus moment. Right. Yeah. And in the
• 57:18
  process of that, and we're using a bunch of language
• 57:20
  that's like, guys, this is a little bit more
• 57:23
  obvious than, we're using a bunch of just modern
• 57:27
  phrases. And when in reality, it's actually pretty,
• 57:31
  not cut and dry, but it's pretty obvious that
• 57:34
  these are really intentional, heavy motifs that
• 57:37
  are happening in the way that all of the minor
• 57:41
  and major prophets represent the message being
• 57:47
  delivered to God's people or to people from God.
• 57:52
  So it's almost like it's different than angels.
• 57:56
  Jonah is a weird one to pick too. When we think
• 57:59
  about how at least for me growing up and with
• 58:02
  people around me, when we think about Jonah,
• 58:04
  you think like, oh yeah, he's the whale dude.
• 58:07
  And then he whined and complained because God
• 58:10
  wouldn't destroy a city. Right. It is like, that's
• 58:12
  how we know him. It's like, yeah, why does he
• 58:15
  deserve a space in the Bible? Yeah, exactly.
• 58:18
  But then Jesus references him. Yeah, so it's
• 58:20
  like, OK, so it's actually significant. Yeah.
• 58:22
  So why is it significant? Right, so what do we
• 58:25
  see with Jonah? So let's jump into that. So what
• 58:27
  we see with Jonah is God tells Jonah, go to Nineveh
• 58:30
  and tell the people to repent. And God is offering
• 58:34
  judgment. And it's funny because we talked about
• 58:36
  this a little bit with Abraham and the covenant
• 58:43
  where God says the iniquity of the Amorites is
• 58:46
  not yet done in 400 years. And it's funny because
• 58:50
  when the Israelites go in finally to the promised
• 58:53
  land and they're told to wipe out the Canaanites,
• 58:57
  that iniquity that is fully complete in the Amorites,
• 59:04
  which the descendants are the Canaanites, like
• 59:07
  we look at that as like he was waiting until
• 59:11
  this time for the prophecy to be done, but in
• 59:14
  reality, Really, the story is telling us, hey,
• 59:18
  I'm gonna give them another 400 years to turn
• 59:21
  and repent. You know what I mean? That's what
• 59:24
  it is. Yeah, so there's grace in that. Hey, their
• 59:28
  iniquity is not up yet. So we're gonna, like,
• 59:31
  their time is not up. Hopefully they'll turn
• 59:34
  and repent. But if they don't, then this is what
• 59:37
  will happen. And as a brief aside, in bringing
• 59:40
  in our... the last week's episode is, again,
• 59:44
  it's that view of we can't compartmentalize God
• 59:48
  and his attributes, because he doesn't do that
• 59:51
  himself. He's demonstrating justice and mercy
• 59:54
  and grace at the same time. Yeah, and it's not
• 59:57
  like a, it's not like. the New Testament is full
• 1:00:00
  of grace and the Old Testament is full of judgment.
• 1:00:03
  It's like, no, each one of them is full of grace
• 1:00:06
  and full of judgment. It's equal parts. It's
• 1:00:08
  just how we read back onto it. We just assume
• 1:00:11
  that this is way - We read that onto it. When
• 1:00:14
  it's funny, the Old Testament especially, because
• 1:00:16
  we like to overemphasize the wrath of God in
• 1:00:18
  the Old Testament, it's like, well, okay, let's
• 1:00:21
  actually read what they're saying. And they don't
• 1:00:24
  say what you're saying. Right, yeah. And then
• 1:00:27
  there you see a lot of moments where it's like
• 1:00:29
  God gives them 400 years to turn and repent.
• 1:00:32
  But then also you see in Jonah where you have
• 1:00:35
  this people, Nineveh, who are actively worshiping
• 1:00:39
  other gods and they are similar to Sodom and
• 1:00:44
  Gomorrah. There's these deep sins that are an
• 1:00:49
  abomination to the Lord. And he's giving them
• 1:00:52
  an opportunity to repent and turn. In fact, they...
• 1:00:56
  what we find out is they do repent in turn. And
• 1:00:59
  that's not a spoiler, because we just read that
• 1:01:01
  in Luke 11, right? Also, if that's a spoiler,
• 1:01:05
  you've waited 2 ,000 years to read this. Sorry,
• 1:01:08
  dude. I think it's time for some spoilers. Yeah.
• 1:01:12
  In fact, that's what preaching is. It's a book
• 1:01:15
  study. Sunday school is just spoiler alert. It's
• 1:01:20
  spoiler alert. Here's what's actually happening
• 1:01:22
  in the story. No, I didn't want that. You ruined
• 1:01:25
  it. I wasn't to the end of the Bible yet. Now
• 1:01:28
  there's no point in me reading it. But yeah,
• 1:01:32
  so. So in Jonah, what we see is the book of Jonah
• 1:01:35
  in chapter one, we basically see God tells Jonah,
• 1:01:39
  hey, go to the people of Nineveh. Well, people
• 1:01:40
  of Nineveh is like modern day, or it's people
• 1:01:44
  of Assyria. It's Eastern. So anyways, the people
• 1:01:50
  of Nineveh, I won't get too much into geography
• 1:01:52
  because that's not what we're talking about.
• 1:01:54
  But the people of Nineveh are, yeah, essentially
• 1:01:59
  not worshiping God, not worshiping Yahweh. He
• 1:02:02
  goes, hey, I'm gonna send somebody to go and
• 1:02:06
  preach to them and tell them to repent because
• 1:02:08
  I want I don't want to destroy them Yeah, but
• 1:02:11
  I'll have to for their wicked ways, right? And
• 1:02:14
  so what he does is this whole story of Jonah
• 1:02:18
  is on behalf of Nineveh Yeah, he basically tells
• 1:02:23
  Jonah go do this and Jonah's like Nah, dude,
• 1:02:26
  they don't deserve that. Destroy them. Yeah.
• 1:02:28
  Yeah. No, you should destroy them. They don't
• 1:02:30
  deserve that. So he decides he's gonna go the
• 1:02:33
  opposite direction from Nineveh. He gets on a
• 1:02:35
  boat and he sails away from Nineveh. As far as
• 1:02:39
  you could go. Yeah. And as he's doing that, there's
• 1:02:44
  massive storms, right? Yeah. Chaos happens, right?
• 1:02:48
  So in the sea with Jonah, chaos. which is represented
• 1:02:53
  in the waters throughout the Old Testament or
• 1:02:57
  throughout the scriptures, that chaos ensues
• 1:03:01
  and it starts to be chaotic for the crew who
• 1:03:06
  has Jonah aboard. And they eventually are like,
• 1:03:09
  what is going on? They're like, there is a God
• 1:03:13
  that is angry with us. Why? Because they believed
• 1:03:16
  that there were gods that were active and working
• 1:03:20
  in creation. Because that was their experience.
• 1:03:22
  Well, even when we think of the sea. Right. It's
• 1:03:25
  like we see that we've talked about that in length
• 1:03:28
  about the Sea of Galilee. Right. And when Jesus
• 1:03:31
  is walking in the water and the water starts
• 1:03:32
  to shake. Yeah. They're like, oh, no, she's coming
• 1:03:35
  for me. Right. The ghosts are coming. Yeah. And
• 1:03:38
  it's like, yeah. So if they're on this boat and
• 1:03:41
  they feel that in the sea, it's like, well, of
• 1:03:43
  course, that's what they would think. Right.
• 1:03:44
  Because that's. what their belief is about it.
• 1:03:46
  Yeah, the waters become troubled. Yeah. And when
• 1:03:49
  the waters become troubled, yeah, there's a fear
• 1:03:52
  because waters represent chaos. Yeah. And even
• 1:03:56
  in the creation story and in other creation stories,
• 1:03:59
  water had to be tamed because it was the chaos.
• 1:04:02
  It represented the chaos. So chaos is ensuing
• 1:04:06
  in the waters. And eventually Jonah's like, sorry,
• 1:04:09
  guys, it's me. He's like, I'm the problem. Yeah.
• 1:04:13
  Just throw me overboard. So he gets thrown overboard
• 1:04:17
  and the water calm what's also interesting about
• 1:04:20
  that too when we think about it from Let's take
• 1:04:23
  Jonah's view of that as well It's like so his
• 1:04:26
  goal is to get as far away from the end of as
• 1:04:30
  he can yes And he realizes oh me doing this is
• 1:04:33
  actually at the cost of everyone else on boards
• 1:04:35
  life. Yes Well, I don't want to go anyway, right?
• 1:04:39
  So if you toss me overboard, I can't go if I'm
• 1:04:42
  dead, right? You know what I mean? Yeah And we
• 1:04:45
  think about that, it's like even on a cruise
• 1:04:47
  ship, if someone falls overboard, it's like,
• 1:04:48
  you gotta get them quick. Because the waters
• 1:04:50
  are freezing. Yes. Yes. And there's a lot of
• 1:04:53
  things that want to eat you out there. Yeah.
• 1:04:56
  Like whales. Like whales. Yeah, exactly. But
• 1:05:00
  also you have this idea that Nineveh is this
• 1:05:03
  place, it's this people that God's heart is after.
• 1:05:07
  And in order for Jonah to get there, in this
• 1:05:10
  instance, he's being disobedient and runs the
• 1:05:13
  other direction. and he goes as far the other
• 1:05:15
  way as he can, which is part of this sign, stay
• 1:05:19
  with us, because part of the sign that relates
• 1:05:23
  to Jesus, the Son of Man, is that he goes as
• 1:05:28
  far away from the people of Israel in order to
• 1:05:31
  eventually save the people of Israel. So Jonah
• 1:05:34
  goes as far away as he can, but he does it in
• 1:05:37
  disobedience, where Jesus does it in obedience.
• 1:05:40
  And when he... goes in disobedience, he gets
• 1:05:43
  thrown over into the, uh, into the waters, into
• 1:05:47
  the chaos. Yeah. Um, and then the water's calm.
• 1:05:50
  Yeah. Which is very significant. It is. Yeah.
• 1:05:53
  Because it's like chaos was hungry. Yes. And
• 1:05:58
  they consumed, right? Yeah. And chaos consumes
• 1:06:01
  Jonah. And so in this Idea Jonah then goes into
• 1:06:06
  the water and it says when Jonah prayed to the
• 1:06:09
  Lord his God From the belly of the fish and I
• 1:06:12
  think this is maybe where the imagery comes from
• 1:06:14
  of like Jonah's just like sitting there He made
• 1:06:16
  a campfire in the empty belly of a fish. You
• 1:06:18
  know what I mean? Yeah, but that doesn't mean
• 1:06:20
  Jonah is Just in an empty cavernous belly. Yeah,
• 1:06:24
  it means Jonah's being eaten by a whale. He's
• 1:06:28
  probably squished in there Yeah, and he's probably
• 1:06:31
  crying out. Yeah with his last opportunity. Because
• 1:06:37
  whales are not empty caverns. They're full of
• 1:06:40
  guts and stuff. So Jonah in chapter two, it says
• 1:06:48
  that from the belly of the fish he calls out
• 1:06:50
  saying, I called out to the Lord out of my distress
• 1:06:53
  and he answered me, out of the belly of Sheol
• 1:06:57
  I cried and you heard my voice for you cast me
• 1:07:01
  into the deep. into the heart of the seas, and
• 1:07:05
  the flood surrounded me. All your waves and your
• 1:07:10
  billows passed over me. Then I said, I am driven
• 1:07:14
  away from your sight, yet I shall again look
• 1:07:17
  upon your holy temple. The waters closed in over
• 1:07:21
  me to take my life. The deep surrounded me. Weeds
• 1:07:26
  were wrapped around my head at the roots of the
• 1:07:29
  mountains. I went down to the land whose bars
• 1:07:33
  closed upon me forever, yet you brought up my
• 1:07:37
  life from the pit. O Lord my God, when my life
• 1:07:42
  was fainting away, I remembered the Lord, and
• 1:07:45
  my prayer came to you into your holy temple.
• 1:07:48
  Those who pay regard to vain idols forsake their
• 1:07:52
  hope of steadfast love, but I, with the voice
• 1:07:55
  of thanksgiving, will sacrifice to you What I
• 1:07:59
  have vowed I will pay. Salvation belongs to the
• 1:08:02
  Lord. And the Lord spoke to the fish and it vomited
• 1:08:07
  Jonah up out upon the dry land. So there's a
• 1:08:12
  bunch of things in here. Like honestly there's
• 1:08:15
  so many like hot key points. One is out of the
• 1:08:22
  belly of Sheol I cried. What is Sheol? And we've
• 1:08:26
  talked about this in a previous episode, too.
• 1:08:27
  We have. That is how it's translated in the New
• 1:08:31
  Testament. It would be Hades or hell. Right.
• 1:08:34
  There's different views of like, what is hell?
• 1:08:37
  Yeah. It's kind of a loaded term. Yeah. But essentially,
• 1:08:40
  that's the place where everyone, if you die,
• 1:08:43
  you go to Sheol. Right. And within Sheol, you
• 1:08:47
  have the honestly kind of awful, torturous. ish
• 1:08:51
  place. But then you also have this section off,
• 1:08:54
  which is Abraham's bosom where, but that's off
• 1:08:56
  of what we're talking about here. But essentially
• 1:08:57
  it's like - Well, no, it talks about that. Oh,
• 1:08:59
  you're right. Yeah, it actually brought - I know.
• 1:09:01
  So that's what I'm about to - Yeah, never mind.
• 1:09:02
  I was like, it's right there. Right. So out of
• 1:09:04
  the belly of Sheol, I cried. So he's cast into
• 1:09:09
  hell, into Sheol. And as he's cast into Sheol,
• 1:09:13
  he's in that space, right? In that space that's
• 1:09:16
  like this upper level where there's a chasm to
• 1:09:19
  the deeper level. For you cast me into the deep,
• 1:09:23
  into the heart of the seas, and the flood surrounded
• 1:09:27
  me. So he's saying he went deeper than Sheol,
• 1:09:30
  which would be that Abraham's bosom or the paradise,
• 1:09:34
  which Jesus calls it on that day. I mean, we
• 1:09:36
  see that in the parable with Lazarus and the
• 1:09:39
  rich man as well. Yes, the chasm between the
• 1:09:41
  two spaces. Yeah. Yeah. So he goes further and
• 1:09:45
  says, you cast me into the deep, into the heart
• 1:09:47
  of the seas, and the floods surrounded me. All
• 1:09:49
  your waves and your billows passed over me. Then
• 1:09:51
  I said, I am driven away from your sight. So
• 1:09:55
  the Lord turning away. So in this space where
• 1:10:00
  Jonah is going, the Lord turns away from him.
• 1:10:04
  And we see that same imagery when Jesus is on
• 1:10:06
  the cross, that the Lord is silent from him,
• 1:10:09
  that he turns away from him. And it says, yet
• 1:10:13
  I shall again look upon your holy temple. So
• 1:10:18
  even as the sight of the Lord turns away, he
• 1:10:21
  says, but still I know. I will look upon your
• 1:10:25
  holy temple. The waters closed in over me to
• 1:10:28
  take my life. So the waters, the chaos, were
• 1:10:33
  trying to take my life. The deep surrounded me.
• 1:10:36
  Weeds were wrapped around my head. At the roots
• 1:10:39
  of the mountains, so at the depths of the mountains,
• 1:10:44
  and we've talked about potential, what mountains
• 1:10:45
  would mean. I went down to the land whose bars
• 1:10:50
  closed upon me forever. So what that means is
• 1:10:53
  he went to the depth, and really what that's
• 1:10:57
  describing is Tartarus. Which we see that in
• 1:10:59
  2 Peter. Right. Yeah, that's where the angels
• 1:11:02
  that disobeyed, that's where they went. Yeah,
• 1:11:05
  it went down to the land upon, land whose bars
• 1:11:08
  closed upon me forever. Which means, yeah, so
• 1:11:12
  if we're looking at it, especially from the views
• 1:11:15
  of these... It's kind of this towerish look.
• 1:11:18
  So it's like, yeah, you've got Sheol, you've
• 1:11:20
  got Abraham's bosom, and you've got Tartarus,
• 1:11:22
  which is as low as you could possibly go. Which
• 1:11:25
  is what he's describing. There are gates there
• 1:11:27
  that will be locked up forever. Well, they are
• 1:11:32
  locked up. Until they're cast into the fiery
• 1:11:38
  lake. And that space was made for the devil and
• 1:11:43
  his angels. the lake of fire is. Right. Yeah.
• 1:11:48
  Yeah. So this specific space, so he's going all
• 1:11:51
  the way down deep. This is describing it. So
• 1:11:53
  the water's taking him in. He's going into Sheol.
• 1:11:56
  Then he's going into the pits. Now he's going
• 1:11:58
  in where the gates are closing over him, where
• 1:12:01
  he would stay forever. Yet you brought me up,
• 1:12:05
  my life from the pit. So it's using all this
• 1:12:09
  key word specific. Yeah. And then when my life
• 1:12:13
  was fainting away, meaning when I was almost
• 1:12:17
  completely gone forever. Not when I was dead,
• 1:12:21
  but when I was almost completely gone forever,
• 1:12:23
  right? Because he goes all the way in the depths.
• 1:12:26
  And he says, I'm in this place whose bars closed
• 1:12:29
  upon me forever. So he's at the deepest, lowest
• 1:12:33
  point of hell. And he says, when my life was
• 1:12:38
  fainting away, I remembered the Lord and my prayer
• 1:12:40
  came to you. into your holy temple. So what that
• 1:12:44
  means is like, the prayer came to the Lord in
• 1:12:49
  his holy temple, and those who pay regard to
• 1:12:53
  vain idols forsake their hope of steadfast love.
• 1:12:57
  That kind of calls back to like him going to
• 1:13:00
  Nineveh, those who pay regard to vain idols forsake
• 1:13:03
  their hope of steadfast love. But I, with the
• 1:13:05
  voice of thanksgiving, will sacrifice to you.
• 1:13:08
  So in other words, he's saying, forgive me Lord.
• 1:13:11
  I'll go and do what you've called me to do. Speak
• 1:13:14
  to these people who have forsaken hope in steadfast
• 1:13:18
  love. And what I have vowed, I will pay. Salvation
• 1:13:21
  belongs to the Lord. And in that moment, the
• 1:13:24
  Lord speaks to the fish and spits them out, right?
• 1:13:28
  Which is pretty fascinating. Actually, since
• 1:13:30
  we're in this space right now, in this point
• 1:13:33
  of the conversation, I wanted to bring up some
• 1:13:37
  modern NDE stories. Okay, real quick. Yeah. Notice
• 1:13:41
  that I never said whale. Yes. It's the belly
• 1:13:44
  of the fish. Correct. And then God speaks to
• 1:13:47
  what? The fish. Yeah. Also it says, and the Lord
• 1:13:51
  all caps. So Yahweh. Yeah. And Yahweh spoke to
• 1:13:54
  the fish. Yeah, whale is kind of a term that
• 1:13:57
  we've given it. Well, we just assume belly of
• 1:13:59
  a whale because its belly is big enough, I guess,
• 1:14:02
  and cavernous enough. Yeah. And we haven't seen
• 1:14:04
  a fish big enough to do that. We also don't know
• 1:14:08
  that the fish in this story is not Leviathan.
• 1:14:12
  Right. Yeah, we don't know that. No, and there's
• 1:14:14
  not really a reason not to think that. Based
• 1:14:18
  on Hebrew myth, to say it that way would make
• 1:14:23
  sense that it was. Yeah, or some type of sea
• 1:14:25
  beast. Because that's the view that we get, even
• 1:14:27
  in Psalms, which we brought that up. Psalm 74,
• 1:14:30
  I think. It would be more likely that this was
• 1:14:32
  like a massive octopus. That's pure speculation.
• 1:14:41
  I feel like Leviathan would be closer. Or like
• 1:14:45
  a giant squid or something. Is Leviathan not
• 1:14:46
  a giant squid or giant octopus? I think it's
• 1:14:49
  a giant squid, isn't it? You know. The Kraken.
• 1:14:52
  I don't know. I don't actually know that. But
• 1:14:56
  with this, talking about Jonah's experience of
• 1:14:59
  going down into the pit and then through these
• 1:15:00
  layers within Sheol and then down to Tartarus.
• 1:15:04
  So it's describing the depths of hell, which
• 1:15:08
  is where Jesus goes when he dies on the cross.
• 1:15:13
  And the Lord's face turns away from him. And
• 1:15:17
  he goes into the depths of Sheol. And when he
• 1:15:21
  does that, he then takes and preaches the good
• 1:15:28
  news that he has arrived, and then he comes out
• 1:15:31
  of the depths. He is spit out of the belly of
• 1:15:34
  the whale, right? So Jesus says, I came for the
• 1:15:40
  lost sheep of Israel. So he comes to the land,
• 1:15:43
  and then he goes as far away from it as he can.
• 1:15:46
  as far away from God as he can. So that's the
• 1:15:50
  image that I love to see is that idea that he
• 1:15:54
  was in heaven. He comes down on the earth and
• 1:15:57
  then he goes below. He goes the complete opposite
• 1:16:00
  direction, which is what Jonah does. And then
• 1:16:03
  he comes back out in order to then ascend and
• 1:16:06
  be back where he came from. So it's almost like
• 1:16:10
  Nineveh is actually Israel. and in those days
• 1:16:15
  he says, well, Nineveh's gonna judge you, Israel,
• 1:16:19
  because something greater, a sign greater than
• 1:16:21
  Jonah, is here with you, and you deny him. Well
• 1:16:26
  so, because I wanna keep exploring that, but
• 1:16:29
  I wanna take us back to the pit real quick. Go
• 1:16:30
  to it. Because I wanna get out of the pit. Okay.
• 1:16:34
  But I was like, while we're there, I wanna bring
• 1:16:36
  something up about that. The pit, I fell into
• 1:16:39
  the pit. Do you know this song? No. I'm just
• 1:16:42
  making stuff up. If you're a Parks and Rec fan,
• 1:16:44
  you know what I'm talking about. I'm a fan. I
• 1:16:47
  haven't apparently seen it enough. Not enough.
• 1:16:50
  Not enough. So the pit. So there are stories
• 1:16:55
  from people that have NDEs, other near death
• 1:16:59
  experiences. And some of these people that have
• 1:17:02
  these negative ones. Yeah. One of the common
• 1:17:05
  things that they'll describe. is that they feel
• 1:17:08
  it's this out of body experience again, but they'll
• 1:17:11
  feel themselves fall. And while they're falling,
• 1:17:14
  they just keep falling through the earth to the
• 1:17:17
  point where it's like, oh, they can look and
• 1:17:18
  see the layers of the earth as they're descending.
• 1:17:22
  And they end up falling as it gets darker and
• 1:17:24
  darker and darker into this pit, is what they
• 1:17:28
  describe it, where they can't see anything. It's
• 1:17:31
  pitch black. And they just know that they're
• 1:17:33
  far from everything. Yeah. And so when we, when
• 1:17:37
  I hear that language from Jonah of like, oh,
• 1:17:40
  I'm down in the pit and then he keeps falling.
• 1:17:42
  Yeah. And it's like, oh yeah, there's, there's
• 1:17:45
  these people that have these NDEs and they experience
• 1:17:48
  a level of that. Right. Where like they're stuck
• 1:17:51
  in the pit. Yeah. Like they're not all the way
• 1:17:53
  down yet. Right. They haven't fully gone. Yeah.
• 1:17:56
  But they're stuck in this weird in -between spot
• 1:17:59
  above Sheol. Yeah. or the beginning of Sheol.
• 1:18:02
  But their description is similar to an abyss.
• 1:18:05
  Yeah. A never -ending space. Yeah. Which is terrifying.
• 1:18:10
  Absolutely terrifying. Yeah. And I've heard some
• 1:18:12
  Indies describe that space and them call out
• 1:18:15
  to the Lord. And He does come down. Yeah. Or
• 1:18:19
  they all of a sudden, like one of them describes
• 1:18:24
  like, there's a little bit of light. And then
• 1:18:27
  when they call out to the Lord, all of a sudden
• 1:18:28
  the light consumes the darkness. And it's almost
• 1:18:33
  like that parallel space where they are falling
• 1:18:38
  into it. And then when they call on the Lord,
• 1:18:39
  he brings them back into it. Which is crazy.
• 1:18:43
  It's pretty crazy. But that's what happens to
• 1:18:45
  Jonah right there. I wanted to bring that in
• 1:18:47
  to kind of tie in that we're actually hearing
• 1:18:49
  these other stories from people today. And that's
• 1:18:53
  part of what Jonah is describing. Yes. But yeah,
• 1:18:56
  I think that's what's beautiful on the other
• 1:18:58
  end of that, taking us out of the pit now. It's
• 1:19:01
  like, yeah, exactly. It's that reference of Jesus.
• 1:19:04
  Yes. I think what's cool, and this is also a
• 1:19:08
  cool thing about baptism, is that it's at least
• 1:19:13
  the way that I believe it, because there are
• 1:19:15
  Presbyterians out there. They do exist. And other
• 1:19:18
  people that don't. shared the same view of baptism.
• 1:19:23
  Yeah, there's different interpretations. But
• 1:19:26
  the way I see it is we take part in this baptism
• 1:19:31
  of let's descend into Sheol, into the chaos with
• 1:19:35
  Christ, and then we reemerge, which is the resurrection.
• 1:19:38
  We take part in the resurrection with Christ.
• 1:19:40
  Yes. And that's that representation and showing
• 1:19:44
  like, yeah, like he did this and I wanna show
• 1:19:47
  that I identify with what he did and I believe
• 1:19:50
  that and I'm confirming that. Yeah, to use some
• 1:19:53
  modern evangelical language, it's like you leave
• 1:19:55
  the old man in the grave. Like you go into the
• 1:19:59
  depths of the water, into chaos and then you
• 1:20:02
  come back out of it. resurrected to new life.
• 1:20:06
  That's that idea, which is really cool. And that's
• 1:20:09
  literally what's happening with Jonah. That's
• 1:20:11
  exactly it. And that's the sign that Israel is
• 1:20:15
  receiving is that idea. And it's cool that when
• 1:20:18
  you read that, it's like Jesus is actually pretty
• 1:20:20
  explicit about it. Yeah. But it lays it out though.
• 1:20:24
  It lays it out in a way that's like, oh, but
• 1:20:26
  then when you go back and read Jonah, you're
• 1:20:28
  like, wait, he just, like, this is a... prophetic
• 1:20:32
  statement to Jesus. This is what Jesus is doing,
• 1:20:36
  which is why, like, the way it describes it is
• 1:20:38
  like, wait a minute, okay, so he references back
• 1:20:41
  to Jonah, you're like, oh yeah, like Jonah and
• 1:20:43
  the whale, yeah, I kinda get it. No, no, Jonah
• 1:20:46
  himself describes what happens to Jesus. And
• 1:20:52
  it's like, oh man, that's crazy. But also, Jesus
• 1:20:54
  says Jonah became the sign to Nineveh. So that's
• 1:21:00
  what I always thought, Jonah's like, I don't
• 1:21:02
  wanna go. And then he runs away, and then he's
• 1:21:06
  like, fine, I'll go, I wanna stop being in a
• 1:21:08
  whale. But then why would it matter if Jonah's
• 1:21:12
  in a whale for three days and three nights? Why
• 1:21:14
  would it matter if he's running all the way away?
• 1:21:16
  Why would it matter that it happens before he
• 1:21:18
  goes to Nineveh? It's all these things that actually
• 1:21:21
  have to happen. You could actually look at it
• 1:21:24
  and go, technically Jonah had to become the message
• 1:21:29
  to Nineveh, not deliver a message, but instead
• 1:21:32
  he had to actually turn, go the opposite direction,
• 1:21:36
  go into the whale, die, come back to life, resurrect,
• 1:21:40
  and then go to Nineveh and explain his story
• 1:21:44
  and say, I've come back from the depths to tell
• 1:21:49
  you to repent and turn to the Lord. Because I
• 1:21:53
  used to think like, man, honestly, Jonah must
• 1:21:56
  be a great preacher. Cause he's like, fine, I'll
• 1:21:58
  go. And then he goes and does that. Because even
• 1:22:01
  after he goes and preaches in Nineveh, he has
• 1:22:04
  this like time of mourning where he like wishes
• 1:22:08
  he never did that. Which is so interesting because
• 1:22:11
  you kind of see that with Jesus as well. Well
• 1:22:13
  I think that's, well it's interesting, actually
• 1:22:15
  follow that thought real quick. I want to hear
• 1:22:17
  that first before I say what I'm gonna say. Well
• 1:22:18
  you see it with Jesus as well. In the statement,
• 1:22:23
  there's a sign greater than Jonah. Right here.
• 1:22:27
  And so it's almost like that whole thing is wrapped
• 1:22:30
  up with Jesus mourning because what happens later
• 1:22:33
  than that, what happens later than Luke 11 is
• 1:22:36
  Jesus weeps over Israel. And he's like, you can't
• 1:22:41
  see what's happening. And so he mourns the fact
• 1:22:46
  that they're not turning away. That they're not
• 1:22:49
  turning towards the Lord. Now Nineveh does turn
• 1:22:52
  towards the Lord. And that's the interesting
• 1:22:55
  thing I was gonna pick up in that is, and this
• 1:22:58
  is that repeated story that we see with Jesus'
• 1:23:01
  ministry in his life, is in every opportunity
• 1:23:05
  where Israel failed, Jesus succeeds. And even
• 1:23:10
  in this moment, where it's like with Jonah, it's
• 1:23:12
  like, well, Jonah was a stubborn, kind of a whiner,
• 1:23:17
  and he did these things. It's like, well, did
• 1:23:19
  God tell him to do those things? No. that's the
• 1:23:24
  personality of Jonah, that he did those things.
• 1:23:26
  And we see that because even after he then is
• 1:23:29
  faithful, after coming back from the depths of
• 1:23:32
  Sheol to then preach, then he goes and he's like,
• 1:23:36
  all right, I'm ready to watch him die. And it's
• 1:23:38
  like, yeah, he still failed. He did what God
• 1:23:42
  asked him to, but in his heart, he didn't see
• 1:23:46
  what God was trying to do. Instead, he went back
• 1:23:50
  to his own stubborn, I'm right about this way.
• 1:23:53
  And he failed. But what does Jesus do? Well,
• 1:23:56
  Jesus does it and he succeeds. And then he almost
• 1:24:00
  dies again. Yeah, yeah. Jonah literally almost
• 1:24:04
  dies again. And he says, Lord, just take me.
• 1:24:08
  And God's like, no, I'm not gonna do that. And
• 1:24:13
  isn't that cool? We see again that mercy is extended
• 1:24:17
  to Jonah. Yes, yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating.
• 1:24:24
  It's a cool picture and I like it because I feel
• 1:24:26
  like there's a lot of depth to the story of Jonah
• 1:24:29
  that we don't often talk about. Yeah, I would
• 1:24:32
  agree. So Jonah's an interesting one. He is interesting.
• 1:24:37
  There's another guy we talk about all the time.
• 1:24:39
  Jesus? Yeah, I mean, we're going to talk about
• 1:24:43
  Jesus with everybody. This Jesus guy. But there's
• 1:24:46
  another interesting guy that has one of these...
• 1:24:50
  near -death experiences, right? Because obviously
• 1:24:54
  Jonah dies. And the interesting thing about Jonah
• 1:24:57
  dying, and I'll say this last thing, is Jonah
• 1:25:01
  goes into the fish, which represents a tomb.
• 1:25:07
  Jesus dies on the cross, his body goes into a
• 1:25:10
  tomb. But his spirit, his soul, goes into Sheol.
• 1:25:17
  Jonah... His body is in the tomb of the whale,
• 1:25:21
  and his spirit is in the sea, in the depths of
• 1:25:26
  Sheol, and then returns back to his body in the
• 1:25:29
  tomb, and then resurrects in his body. And we
• 1:25:33
  actually see that he is separated from his body,
• 1:25:36
  because he describes every layer of shiel. He
• 1:25:41
  describes leaving his body, and then coming back
• 1:25:44
  into his body. And continually falling. Right.
• 1:25:46
  Yeah, it's pretty fascinating. But another guy
• 1:25:49
  that is a little ambiguous about this, and this
• 1:25:52
  would jump into the arena of speculation, but
• 1:25:57
  also scholarly conclusion. Okay. So what this
• 1:26:02
  means is essentially, it's a little bit of speculation.
• 1:26:04
  A lot of smart people agree. A lot of smart people.
• 1:26:07
  A lot of smart people. A lot of smart people
• 1:26:10
  have come to this conclusion as well. Okay. So
• 1:26:14
  there's a guy who talks about, just kind of oddly,
• 1:26:18
  in a letter to a church. He talks about... I
• 1:26:23
  wonder who it could be. Who writes letters? To
• 1:26:28
  whom? He writes a letter to a church, and he
• 1:26:32
  describes, and he kind of facetiously talks kind
• 1:26:38
  of cheeky about this guy that he knows, which
• 1:26:41
  is probably just him. I have a friend, hypothetically
• 1:26:46
  speaking. Yeah, but I love the context in which
• 1:26:48
  he says it, and we'll get there in a second,
• 1:26:51
  but who talks about going and visiting the third
• 1:26:55
  heaven. And this same guy that talks about visiting
• 1:26:59
  the third heaven, when he describes this, there
• 1:27:03
  are things that he can't mention or talk about.
• 1:27:07
  And there are some serious things about this
• 1:27:09
  guy. And there's a couple of things that I want
• 1:27:12
  to mention. Can we pause there real quick? Yes.
• 1:27:16
  You said third heaven. I did. Is there a first
• 1:27:19
  and a second? There are. And where might one
• 1:27:24
  find these? So can you talk about that a little
• 1:27:28
  bit? Yeah, so it's actually, this is one of those
• 1:27:30
  things that, oddly enough, like we talk about
• 1:27:33
  that with the podcast a lot. It's like, there
• 1:27:35
  are things that are like, what's in this closet?
• 1:27:37
  Like what's behind this door? And it's like,
• 1:27:39
  sometimes that thing's like, whoa, we really
• 1:27:41
  need to talk about this. And this is one of those
• 1:27:43
  things that like we should talk about, but it's
• 1:27:46
  actually pretty simple. It's actually like, it's
• 1:27:49
  actually not complicated at all. It's actually
• 1:27:52
  just an ancient worldview. Which is also, kind
• 1:27:55
  of the point of why we're doing all this too.
• 1:27:56
  It's like some things, they're actually not that
• 1:27:57
  big of a deal. No, but it's cool to know because
• 1:28:01
  I think sometimes we're like, oh, it's this big
• 1:28:03
  mysterious thing. He has to be talking about
• 1:28:05
  this thing that maybe is derived from Dante's
• 1:28:09
  levels of hell. It's like, no, there's not like,
• 1:28:12
  that's not what's actually happening. The fact
• 1:28:15
  is, is that culturally, back then when this was
• 1:28:19
  written, the first heaven was as simple as the
• 1:28:23
  sky. Yeah, so like be like our atmosphere. Yeah,
• 1:28:27
  yeah, but but not not is inner atmosphere Yes,
• 1:28:31
  so inner atmosphere meaning like the clouds and
• 1:28:34
  and the the depending on what culture you're
• 1:28:37
  in the green above you We say blue now because
• 1:28:42
  we need that color. Yeah But the water is kind
• 1:28:44
  of more green than blue. But yeah, so that's
• 1:28:49
  the idea. So if he says the third heaven, we
• 1:28:52
  go, all right, well, there's the first heaven
• 1:28:54
  in ancient culture is just the sky. Yeah, which
• 1:28:58
  already kind of makes the third heaven a little
• 1:29:00
  bit closer. Way closer. You know what I mean?
• 1:29:03
  Yeah. Because when you think about that, like
• 1:29:04
  what you've said, it's like, yeah, when I think
• 1:29:06
  of third heaven, it's like, so it's like deep,
• 1:29:08
  deep, deep in heaven. We're like, oh, the first
• 1:29:11
  one's just the sky? Right. Oh. Yeah. It's like,
• 1:29:14
  oh, wait. The Earth and the heavens are interlocked?
• 1:29:18
  Yeah. Oh, wait, what? Pause. So second heaven.
• 1:29:23
  So second heaven is described in a couple different
• 1:29:27
  ways. But really, the simplest way to put it,
• 1:29:29
  it would be like our atmosphere. It would be
• 1:29:31
  like the stars above. It would be like outer
• 1:29:33
  space, wouldn't it? Yeah. And that's, the second
• 1:29:38
  heaven gets slightly complicated because of the
• 1:29:40
  things that we can see and the things we can't
• 1:29:42
  see. Because that's typically associated with,
• 1:29:45
  we see it with the sons of God. And it's like,
• 1:29:48
  that's kind of like their home, but it's not
• 1:29:51
  talking about the space that we can see. Well,
• 1:29:53
  right, like even in Genesis 1. At least within
• 1:29:55
  our dimension. Yeah, even in Genesis 1 in the
• 1:29:58
  creation story. it says that God placed the stars
• 1:30:03
  in the sky as a sign to his people. So when he
• 1:30:07
  placed the stars in the sky, that referencing
• 1:30:11
  a spiritual realm. So you could look at like
• 1:30:15
  an ancient culture way of looking at the second
• 1:30:19
  heaven would be above or out of our atmosphere
• 1:30:23
  and also the spiritual realm. So the things we
• 1:30:28
  can't see. our sky is visible to us. That's the
• 1:30:33
  first heaven, the heavens above. But then the
• 1:30:36
  second heaven would be that spiritual dimension
• 1:30:40
  that exists above where the stars are, right?
• 1:30:43
  And then the third heaven is the temple of God.
• 1:30:46
  It's where God dwells. So that's the whole thing
• 1:30:49
  is like that second heaven could be as close
• 1:30:52
  as the first heaven. Like it can be that spiritual
• 1:30:56
  dimension that's just on the other side of our
• 1:30:59
  view. However, in the ancient culture, it's really
• 1:31:03
  just like three layers of, it's like inner space,
• 1:31:08
  outer space, and then the realm beyond or the
• 1:31:12
  temple of God, that's the third heaven. And to
• 1:31:15
  marry that to the term we use today, third heaven
• 1:31:18
  would just be heaven, is what we would call it.
• 1:31:20
  Yeah, the traditional just like where God is,
• 1:31:23
  where God's throne is. Yeah, so let me read from
• 1:31:28
  there. So 2 Corinthians. Two says, I think this
• 1:31:37
  is where it is. Hang on, let me look at this.
• 1:31:41
  Are you looking for the account? Oh, sorry. I
• 1:31:44
  always get that confused. 12? Yeah, 2 Corinthians
• 1:31:47
  12. There's too many twos in here. He says, and
• 1:31:51
  understanding the context of this too. So Paul
• 1:31:55
  says, I must go on boasting. though there is
• 1:31:58
  nothing to be gained by it. I will go on. Can
• 1:32:00
  I say real quick? Yeah, yeah. Because I think
• 1:32:02
  that's hilarious. I know. And it's only because
• 1:32:04
  I know right before that he says, now I'm not
• 1:32:07
  going to boast, but if I had to, it would be
• 1:32:10
  about how awesome God is. No, I'm going to keep
• 1:32:13
  on boasting. Yeah. Actually, now that I'm going.
• 1:32:17
  Well, he consistently does that. He even does
• 1:32:19
  it with things like, well, especially with Corinthians.
• 1:32:23
  Like the church at Corinth, over and over again,
• 1:32:25
  he's like, Guys, if this is a contest, let's
• 1:32:30
  face it, I'm better than all of you guys. So
• 1:32:33
  let me be the example to show you that a person
• 1:32:37
  that you, by your measures, would say is better
• 1:32:40
  than me. Because it's one of those things where
• 1:32:43
  you can't really lead where you haven't gone.
• 1:32:46
  And that concept of, Paul is kind of saying,
• 1:32:50
  he's like, look, guys, here's your metrics. I
• 1:32:55
  line up to all those metrics. And let me show
• 1:32:57
  you how that's true. So now be quiet, because
• 1:33:01
  you're saying this person is better because of
• 1:33:04
  this, this person's better. So I qualify in all
• 1:33:07
  those things that are better, that you're saying.
• 1:33:10
  But look at my life, and look what I've chosen
• 1:33:13
  to do. It's like the celebrity being like, look
• 1:33:17
  I have all the money in the world. I have every
• 1:33:20
  worldly thing you could ever want, but I'm not
• 1:33:22
  happy. Paul's saying, I have achieved everything
• 1:33:26
  that you possibly could spiritually in a religious
• 1:33:30
  structure, but yet my joy is not in those things.
• 1:33:37
  Whereas the worldly celebrity would be like,
• 1:33:40
  I have no joy. Paul says, no, my joy is actually
• 1:33:43
  in my suffering. And I love it. Well actually,
• 1:33:47
  even in what you're about to read, we see...
• 1:33:49
  Him even referencing that, he's like, now I'm
• 1:33:51
  gonna do this because I don't want to be conceited.
• 1:33:53
  Or also, he's like, yeah, there's been a thorn
• 1:33:56
  that's been given to me, just that way I stay
• 1:33:57
  humble. And it's like, he's actively aware, it's
• 1:34:00
  like, hey, look, I know what I've done and what
• 1:34:03
  I've been through, and I need to stay humble.
• 1:34:05
  And the Lord's helping me do that. Right, yeah,
• 1:34:08
  he's doing pretty well. Yeah, he's doing a great
• 1:34:09
  job. Because even we see him be like, I want
• 1:34:12
  to get rid of this thorn, but the Lord's just
• 1:34:14
  telling no. Well, and Paul's the one that says,
• 1:34:16
  like, I ... I do what I don't wanna do and I
• 1:34:19
  don't do what I wanna do. He's pretty open about
• 1:34:24
  this struggle because he's trying to be an example
• 1:34:27
  to us. Look, you are gonna struggle in this life,
• 1:34:30
  but you can overcome that. And so he says, I
• 1:34:34
  must go on boasting, though there is nothing
• 1:34:36
  to be gained by it. I will go on to visions and
• 1:34:40
  revelations of the Lord. So he's just boasted
• 1:34:42
  about worldly things. Now he's going to go on
• 1:34:45
  and boast about visions and revelations. I know
• 1:34:48
  a man in Christ who 14 years ago was caught up
• 1:34:51
  to the third heaven, whether in the body or out
• 1:34:55
  of the body. I do not know. God knows. Let me
• 1:35:01
  just stop there for a second, because what that's
• 1:35:04
  saying is he's basically going, hey, now let
• 1:35:07
  me talk about visions and revelations. So I already
• 1:35:10
  talked about all my worldly accomplishments.
• 1:35:12
  Now let's get to the spiritual stuff. Now let's
• 1:35:14
  get to the spiritual stuff. Visions and revelations.
• 1:35:18
  And he says, I know a man in Christ who 14 years
• 1:35:22
  ago was caught up to the third heaven, whether
• 1:35:25
  in the body or out of the body, I do not know.
• 1:35:29
  So whether he experienced this with his physical
• 1:35:32
  body or his spirit came out of his physical body
• 1:35:35
  and he experienced this, he doesn't know, but
• 1:35:38
  God knows. I know that this man was caught up
• 1:35:42
  into paradise Whether in the body or out of the
• 1:35:45
  body. I do not know he says it again Yeah, and
• 1:35:48
  then he says God knows so twice he says that
• 1:35:51
  and also I will say really quick for that Because
• 1:35:54
  we did use the word paradise earlier. I believe
• 1:35:56
  yeah And it's important here. It's like that's
• 1:35:58
  part of that cool shift Between pre Christ and
• 1:36:03
  post Christ death and resurrection. Yeah where
• 1:36:05
  before paradise was referring specifically to
• 1:36:09
  Abraham's bosom in Sheol. But now the term has
• 1:36:12
  changed. It's like paradise means heaven or the
• 1:36:15
  third heaven. Yes, which is not final destination.
• 1:36:19
  It is still a holding place until he comes again.
• 1:36:24
  Because paradise, the first time, edition one,
• 1:36:29
  first edition paradise, was in existence for
• 1:36:33
  the righteous to wait for the coming of the Savior.
• 1:36:37
  He already came the first time. So second edition
• 1:36:41
  paradise is where we are in the New Testament.
• 1:36:44
  Second edition paradise is not in Sheol. It's
• 1:36:49
  in the heavens. And second edition paradise is
• 1:36:53
  also there as a holding place waiting for the
• 1:36:56
  savior to come again. Can I say something touchy
• 1:36:59
  about that? Yeah. And this is, you're gonna see
• 1:37:01
  why this is touchy. I love it. But it's like,
• 1:37:03
  for me, when I hear that, it's like, okay, well,
• 1:37:05
  why? What do you mean? You know what I mean?
• 1:37:07
  So it's like, well, why was the place there,
• 1:37:09
  then all of a sudden it's up here, and now it's
• 1:37:10
  like, why did this move? And I think what's cool
• 1:37:13
  about that is when we see it all has to do with
• 1:37:17
  the preeminence of Christ. Yes. Where before
• 1:37:22
  Jesus became, was incarnated as a man and died
• 1:37:26
  and resurrected, he was not preeminent over death.
• 1:37:29
  Right. Because he had not overcome death. Yeah.
• 1:37:33
  And so, which is interesting, that's where people
• 1:37:35
  are like, what are you saying that God isn't...
• 1:37:36
  Well, better than anything. No, I didn't say,
• 1:37:38
  I said, not yet. Technically, it's like, well,
• 1:37:41
  he hadn't died. Well, in the fullness of time
• 1:37:43
  is what the gospel's saying. Exactly. And I think
• 1:37:46
  that's one of the cool things where it's like,
• 1:37:47
  well, he was, but not then. Right, yes. And that's
• 1:37:51
  that weird eternity view. And really, it's as
• 1:37:54
  simple as like, new heavens, new earth in Revelation.
• 1:37:58
  It's really just as simple as saying the earth
• 1:38:00
  is corrupt. The solution is God's gonna destroy
• 1:38:04
  it and rebuild it. He's gonna do to it what he
• 1:38:09
  what happens with Jesus. Yeah, you will be torn
• 1:38:12
  down and rebuilt. Yeah, so There's just this
• 1:38:16
  holding place like from the point of the corrupt
• 1:38:19
  of the earth being corrupted Now it has to be
• 1:38:22
  destroyed. Yeah and rebuilt. Yeah, and so in
• 1:38:26
  the fullness of time Jesus comes the first time
• 1:38:29
  so that we might then all come to know him And
• 1:38:34
  once we can all come to know him, he'll come
• 1:38:36
  again and he'll set us in that holding place
• 1:38:39
  to tear down the earth and rebuild the heavens
• 1:38:42
  and the earth where we will dwell with him forever.
• 1:38:44
  Because we see even with Sheol, it's like, well,
• 1:38:47
  Sheol is never meant for us. Right. We were never
• 1:38:49
  meant to go there. Well, Tartarus. Well, Tartarus
• 1:38:52
  as well. But when we look at that, it's like,
• 1:38:54
  well, we weren't supposed to experience death.
• 1:38:56
  Right. And so there's no place for us to die.
• 1:38:59
  Oh, originally. To go when we died. So it's like,
• 1:39:01
  yeah, so it wasn't for us. Right. And then so
• 1:39:04
  Christ comes and he then holds the keys to death
• 1:39:07
  in Hades. And he's like, okay, I'm opening it
• 1:39:10
  up. You guys are out of here. You're going to
• 1:39:12
  this other place. Could we even see the same
• 1:39:14
  thing with the lake of fire? It's like that wasn't
• 1:39:18
  created for us either. That was created for the
• 1:39:22
  devil and his angels, as Jesus says. But then
• 1:39:24
  he also says, but if you're not gonna repent,
• 1:39:28
  that place is for you now too. That's where you're
• 1:39:31
  gonna go. Yeah, true. So it's kind of this, it's
• 1:39:33
  this weird like there's, and I think that's when
• 1:39:35
  we look at where we are in the story. It's like
• 1:39:38
  things change. Right. And there's forward motion.
• 1:39:42
  Yeah. So nothing is just static and stays in
• 1:39:44
  one place. Even right here, the only reason I
• 1:39:46
  brought that up is because of paradise. And it's
• 1:39:48
  like, well, that term isn't static. It doesn't
• 1:39:51
  just mean this one thing, it's changed. Right.
• 1:39:54
  The intent is still the same. Right. But it's
• 1:39:57
  in a new location. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah, which
• 1:40:00
  is cool. Anyway, continue. That was a little
• 1:40:03
  Paul tangent. No, no. That's what happens when
• 1:40:05
  I don't have notes today. No, I love that. I
• 1:40:08
  think that's important and critical to this whole
• 1:40:10
  thing, because that's what we're talking about.
• 1:40:13
  Like, it's important. True. Like, we are talking
• 1:40:15
  about this specifically. Yeah. So we're just
• 1:40:17
  talking about people going there, but then returning
• 1:40:20
  back to Earth. Yeah. Right? So it's near -death
• 1:40:23
  experiences. They didn't die forever. They just
• 1:40:26
  experienced death for a moment. and then the
• 1:40:29
  Lord brought them back into their body. So, on
• 1:40:33
  behalf of this man I will boast, but on my own
• 1:40:36
  behalf I will not boast except of my weaknesses.
• 1:40:40
  Though if I should wish to boast, I would not
• 1:40:43
  be a fool, for I would be speaking the truth,
• 1:40:46
  but I refrain from it, so that no one may think
• 1:40:49
  more of me than he sees in me or hears from me.
• 1:40:52
  So to keep me from becoming conceited because
• 1:40:55
  of the surpassing greatness of the revelations,
• 1:40:58
  a thorn was given to me in the flesh, a messenger
• 1:41:01
  of Satan to harass me, to keep me from being
• 1:41:04
  conceited. Three times I pleaded with the Lord
• 1:41:07
  about this, that it should leave me. But he said
• 1:41:10
  to me, my grace is sufficient for you, for my
• 1:41:12
  power is made perfect in weakness. Therefore
• 1:41:16
  I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses
• 1:41:18
  so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
• 1:41:21
  For the sake of Christ then, I am content with
• 1:41:24
  weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions,
• 1:41:27
  and calamity. For when I am weak, then I am strong."
• 1:41:30
  So what Paul does here, and this is the discussion,
• 1:41:36
  right? So it's like, okay, is Paul saying that
• 1:41:38
  he's the one that went up into the third heaven?
• 1:41:41
  He kind of broke his own, his little shift there.
• 1:41:44
  Right, so he shifts into it and he says, all
• 1:41:48
  right, look, I am talking about myself. Yeah,
• 1:41:51
  for he's like, so I know this guy, it's me. Yeah,
• 1:41:53
  yeah, it's me, but you know what, I won't say
• 1:41:56
  it's me because I don't want to seem conceited.
• 1:41:59
  Yeah. So I'm just gonna, you know, it's this
• 1:42:02
  other guy that I know, right? And the funny thing
• 1:42:05
  is like, almost every scholar believes that Paul
• 1:42:08
  right here is talking about himself and gives
• 1:42:10
  himself away, that he's the one he's talking
• 1:42:13
  about. Now, there is, I'll mention, there is
• 1:42:16
  one other scholarly approach to this that potentially
• 1:42:20
  Paul is actually referring to John the Revelator,
• 1:42:24
  where in Revelation 10 -4, John the Revelator
• 1:42:28
  is told, don't tell, the things that you're seeing
• 1:42:33
  here. So there's a moment when John is in the
• 1:42:36
  throne room and an angel says to him, don't talk
• 1:42:41
  about what you've just seen. And it's just this
• 1:42:44
  one part of it. It's Revelation 10 -4. We actually
• 1:42:46
  see that in Daniel as well, I believe. Where
• 1:42:49
  there's a piece where they're like, yeah, don't
• 1:42:51
  write that down, or don't say that. Save that
• 1:42:54
  for later. Yeah, so that happens in John. Then
• 1:42:56
  the thought there is that Revelation is actually
• 1:43:00
  what Daniel had seen, but wasn't allowed to say
• 1:43:02
  yet. Oh, that makes sense. And then what John
• 1:43:04
  picks up is what Daniel had been told but was
• 1:43:07
  told he can't share. Yeah, because it wasn't
• 1:43:09
  for that time. And then John's given a new piece.
• 1:43:11
  Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. Which is kind of cool.
• 1:43:13
  It is cool. And it also brings up the idea of
• 1:43:16
  like our visions near -death experiences. So
• 1:43:21
  like when there's a vision in the Bible, does
• 1:43:25
  that often come with an individual's near -death
• 1:43:29
  experience? And the answer is No, I mean it's
• 1:43:33
  not consistently, that's not consistently what
• 1:43:35
  happens. However. I think it can happen when
• 1:43:37
  you. Right. However, there are these moments
• 1:43:40
  like Jonah. Yeah. Dying in the belly of the whale
• 1:43:43
  for being dead for three days and then rising
• 1:43:46
  up out of that. Yeah. But then you also see this
• 1:43:50
  moment like Paul where he says he was, basically
• 1:43:55
  he had visions and revelations. Yeah. And he
• 1:43:59
  says twice. whether in the body or out of the
• 1:44:02
  body, I do not know, but God knows. Whether in
• 1:44:05
  the body or out of the body, I do not know, but
• 1:44:07
  God knows. And then we go, okay, well, let's
• 1:44:10
  connect this for a second. And let's go, okay,
• 1:44:12
  so Paul was taken up into the third heaven. At
• 1:44:17
  least according to this. And there's very few
• 1:44:20
  scholars through the centuries who would say
• 1:44:24
  that he's referring to John. But, and he's definitely
• 1:44:27
  not referring to Daniel, because he doesn't know
• 1:44:29
  Daniel. David's not alive. But also pretty unlikely
• 1:44:33
  that he's communicating with John in this timeline.
• 1:44:38
  Not unlikely, but it's probably not. That's fair.
• 1:44:43
  Probably not John. And it's not like John was
• 1:44:45
  the only guy who was allowed to see something
• 1:44:47
  he wasn't allowed to say anything about. Correct.
• 1:44:51
  Yeah. So we go, all right, well, so if Paul is
• 1:44:55
  having visions and revelations and he doesn't
• 1:44:58
  know if he's in the body or out of the body,
• 1:45:01
  is there, and this is where we jump into speculation.
• 1:45:03
  Yeah. So like that's something where we go. Speculation
• 1:45:06
  alert. So that's something where we go, all right.
• 1:45:09
  Most scholars agree that Paul's talking about
• 1:45:11
  himself when he talks about this vision But then
• 1:45:14
  the speculation is well, wait a minute We have
• 1:45:16
  this instance with Paul and we have this instance
• 1:45:19
  of Paul where he has a near -death experience
• 1:45:22
  and you kind of go like I wonder if this is there
• 1:45:26
  a possibility that 14 years ago from this when
• 1:45:29
  he writes the letter of Second Corinthians to
• 1:45:33
  the church at Corinth if he's referring to this
• 1:45:35
  moment in Acts Yeah, where he has a near -death
• 1:45:39
  experience. Yeah, so I'm gonna read that near
• 1:45:41
  -death experience, which is that's it cuz right
• 1:45:43
  now like based on Just what's written I would
• 1:45:48
  argue that it was more of an out -of -body experience
• 1:45:50
  in OBE But he said 14 years ago. So like can
• 1:45:54
  we figure out what happened on that time? Well,
• 1:45:56
  and why would he say it so specifically? Yeah,
• 1:45:58
  like he specifically says 14 years. Yeah, it's
• 1:46:01
  not like yeah like around 10 years ago Yeah,
• 1:46:03
  so that feels like he's referencing something
• 1:46:05
  specific. Yeah a certain event Yeah, which they
• 1:46:07
  would have known about. Right. So that's the
• 1:46:09
  other thing, like with Jonah, like when Jonah
• 1:46:11
  goes to Nineveh, they hear that he's telling
• 1:46:14
  them the story. Yeah. Right. So in Acts 14, 19,
• 1:46:19
  it says, but Jews came from Antioch and Iconium
• 1:46:23
  and having persuaded the crowds, they stoned
• 1:46:26
  Paul and they dragged him out of the city, supposing
• 1:46:30
  that he was dead. But when the disciples gathered
• 1:46:35
  about him, He rose up and entered the city, and
• 1:46:38
  on the next day, he went on with Barnabas to
• 1:46:42
  Derby. What? Did you say Acts chapter 14? Verse
• 1:46:47
  19. 14 years ago? What? In chapter 14? I never
• 1:46:51
  even considered that. That's how End Times guys
• 1:46:55
  think. I know, I know. But it is still weird.
• 1:46:59
  It's kind of funny, actually. It is still weird,
• 1:47:01
  but literally doesn't mean anything. No, not
• 1:47:04
  at all. Yeah, these are made -up numbers Yeah,
• 1:47:08
  so Yeah, so he goes from there and he preaches
• 1:47:13
  returns to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch
• 1:47:16
  and strengthening the souls of the disciples
• 1:47:17
  encouraging them to continue in the faith and
• 1:47:20
  saying that through many tribulations we must
• 1:47:22
  enter the kingdom of God and when they had appointed
• 1:47:25
  elders for them in every church with prayer and
• 1:47:28
  fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom
• 1:47:30
  they had believed so you have this okay, so Paul
• 1:47:34
  actually does have this almost martyrdom. And
• 1:47:38
  he gets stoned to death, and they leave him there,
• 1:47:40
  right? But he's not dead. The apostles look at
• 1:47:44
  him, and they're like, all right, I think he's
• 1:47:48
  okay. I guess we pick him up, and he's like,
• 1:47:50
  whoop. And then he gets up, and the next day,
• 1:47:52
  he goes back and preaches. You're like, what?
• 1:47:55
  I mean, what a guy. And so, well, that's an interesting
• 1:47:59
  thing too, even the time of that, because it
• 1:48:00
  sounds like he gets up pretty quickly afterwards.
• 1:48:04
  And that kind of speaks to these people that
• 1:48:06
  have these near -death experiences, a lot of
• 1:48:07
  time distortion, where they'll be out of their
• 1:48:11
  body for what feels like a full day or hours,
• 1:48:16
  but really it's been like 10 minutes. Right.
• 1:48:19
  Yeah, and I wanna jump to this too, because also
• 1:48:23
  in 2 Corinthians chapter five, so when he's talking
• 1:48:26
  about those visions, he's in 2 Corinthians 12,
• 1:48:29
  but. This is a pretty consistent theme in 2 Corinthians.
• 1:48:32
  So in 2 Corinthians 5, it says, for we know that
• 1:48:35
  if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed,
• 1:48:38
  we have a building from God, a house not made
• 1:48:41
  with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this
• 1:48:44
  tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly
• 1:48:47
  dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not
• 1:48:50
  be found naked, which referencing Adam and Eve
• 1:48:53
  in the garden. This also points back to Jonah.
• 1:48:58
  in the fact that, like Jonah says, but I will
• 1:49:02
  be in the holy temple. It's like there's all
• 1:49:04
  these parallels here that for while we are still
• 1:49:08
  in this tent, referring to the body, the physical
• 1:49:11
  body, we groan being burdened. Not that we would
• 1:49:14
  be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed
• 1:49:17
  so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by
• 1:49:20
  life. He who has prepared us for this very thing
• 1:49:23
  is God who has given us the spirit as a guarantee
• 1:49:26
  So we are always good of good courage. We know
• 1:49:30
  that while we are at home in the body We are
• 1:49:33
  away from the Lord for we walk by faith not by
• 1:49:37
  sight Yes, we are of good courage and we would
• 1:49:39
  rather be away from the body and at home with
• 1:49:43
  the Lord So whether we are at home or away, we
• 1:49:46
  make it our aim to please him." So you have all
• 1:49:49
  this language. I think that's the verse of our
• 1:49:50
  podcast, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you have
• 1:49:53
  this language in 2 Corinthians throughout, really,
• 1:49:56
  where Paul's like, in the body, out of the body,
• 1:49:59
  only God knows. I'd rather be out of the body
• 1:50:02
  than in the body, because when I'm in the body,
• 1:50:04
  I'm absent from the Lord. When I'm out of the
• 1:50:07
  body, I'm present with the Lord. Yeah. and I'll
• 1:50:09
  do whichever the Lord calls me to do, right?
• 1:50:12
  But when I'm in the body, I'm in this tent, like
• 1:50:15
  I'm in this, calling back to like the tabernacle,
• 1:50:19
  I'm in this space where God dwells, right? But
• 1:50:22
  I'm absent from Him fully. But then when I can
• 1:50:25
  exit this tent, then I can be with Him fully.
• 1:50:28
  So Paul's having this like tear between like,
• 1:50:31
  I wanna be absent from my body. And then later
• 1:50:34
  in... 2 Corinthians 12, he says, I know a guy,
• 1:50:37
  me, who was absent from his, whether he was absent
• 1:50:40
  from his body or not, I don't know, God knows.
• 1:50:42
  Right? So it's all this in and out of the body,
• 1:50:45
  in and out of the body. He must have this experience
• 1:50:48
  of coming in and out of the body in this way
• 1:50:50
  where it's like, it kinda adds to that concept,
• 1:50:54
  which is an interesting one. Yeah, the way he
• 1:50:57
  talks about it seems like he's experienced it.
• 1:51:00
  It might not be that exact time, but he's definitely
• 1:51:02
  been out of his body at some point. For sure.
• 1:51:05
  Yeah. But yeah, there's another thing that I
• 1:51:10
  think is interesting. Yeah, please. And this
• 1:51:12
  is not necessarily even an NDE thing. It's really
• 1:51:16
  just kind of taking Paul to this point and going
• 1:51:20
  like, Paul really has this... Yeah, let me throw
• 1:51:25
  this in. Okay, yeah. Because... This is kind
• 1:51:29
  of in this conversation, and this wouldn't be
• 1:51:33
  a whole episode. This is just something I want
• 1:51:35
  to add in to the feel of what we're talking about.
• 1:51:38
  But in Galatians chapter one, Paul says he's
• 1:51:43
  talking about no other gospel except for the
• 1:51:45
  gospel of Jesus. And he says, and right before
• 1:51:49
  this, he's basically talked about if anyone comes
• 1:51:54
  to you with another gospel. Verse six, he says,
• 1:51:58
  I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting
• 1:52:00
  Him who called you in the grace of Christ and
• 1:52:03
  are turning to a different gospel. Not that there
• 1:52:06
  is another one, but there are some who trouble
• 1:52:09
  you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
• 1:52:11
  But even if we or an angel from heaven should
• 1:52:15
  preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we
• 1:52:17
  preach to you, let him be accursed. As we have
• 1:52:19
  said before, so now I say again, if anyone is
• 1:52:23
  preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one
• 1:52:25
  you received, let him be accursed. For am I now
• 1:52:28
  seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am
• 1:52:31
  I trying to please man? If I were still trying
• 1:52:34
  to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.
• 1:52:37
  Here's where it gets interesting. For I would
• 1:52:40
  have you know brothers that the gospel that was
• 1:52:43
  preached by me is not man's gospel For I did
• 1:52:49
  not receive it from any man Nor was I taught
• 1:52:53
  it But I received it through a revelation of
• 1:52:57
  Jesus Christ Hang on. So Paul is saying in Galatians
• 1:53:02
  listen There is no other gospel than the one
• 1:53:06
  that you first received the one that you first
• 1:53:08
  received is the one true gospel and if even an
• 1:53:11
  angel comes to you and says a different gospel
• 1:53:14
  than the one that you first received do not believe
• 1:53:17
  them because it is a false gospel it is not the
• 1:53:20
  true gospel and do i have anything to boast in
• 1:53:23
  because i'm not trying to boast right i i don't
• 1:53:26
  care what man thinks i only want to please god
• 1:53:29
  and he says by the way i didn't learn The gospel
• 1:53:34
  that I preached to you when I first came I did
• 1:53:37
  not learn that from the Apostles No one taught
• 1:53:41
  it to me I learned it through a revelation of
• 1:53:44
  Jesus Christ for you have heard of my former
• 1:53:47
  life in Judaism How I persecuted the Church of
• 1:53:51
  God violently and tried to destroy it sounds
• 1:53:54
  a lot like like Jonah in his heart. Yeah honestly
• 1:53:58
  And verse 14, and I was advancing in Judaism
• 1:54:01
  beyond many of my own age among my people. So
• 1:54:04
  extremely zealous was I for the traditions of
• 1:54:07
  my fathers. But when he who had set me apart
• 1:54:10
  before I was born and who called me by his grace
• 1:54:14
  was pleased to reveal his son to me in order
• 1:54:18
  that I might preach him among the Gentiles. So
• 1:54:21
  what he's saying is the one who created me. who
• 1:54:24
  called me even before I was born and by grace
• 1:54:28
  saved me and chose to reveal his son to me, speaking
• 1:54:32
  of the Damascus Road experience that we talk
• 1:54:34
  about, or his conversion experience there, in
• 1:54:38
  order that I might preach him among the Gentiles.
• 1:54:42
  So all of that happening. I did not immediately
• 1:54:45
  consult with anyone. So after Jesus reveals himself
• 1:54:49
  to Paul on the road to Damascus, Paul says, from
• 1:54:52
  that moment, I did not immediately consult with
• 1:54:55
  anyone, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those
• 1:54:59
  who were apostles before me. So he's telling
• 1:55:02
  us right now, Paul's saying. God in His infinite
• 1:55:07
  grace chose to send His Son to me directly in
• 1:55:10
  a revelation where I had this conversion moment.
• 1:55:13
  And after that moment happened, I didn't go to
• 1:55:16
  the apostles in Jerusalem. I was not taught by
• 1:55:20
  man, but instead I went away into Arabia and
• 1:55:26
  returned again to Damascus. Then after three
• 1:55:30
  years, I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas
• 1:55:34
  or Peter and remained with him 15 days. But I
• 1:55:38
  saw none of the other apostles except James,
• 1:55:40
  the brother of the Lord's brother. So what Paul's
• 1:55:45
  telling us right here is that he learned the
• 1:55:50
  Torah. He learned the Old Testament. He learned
• 1:55:53
  the law and the prophets. He was studied highly.
• 1:55:57
  Yeah. And then before he could get to the point
• 1:56:00
  where he was becoming a rabbi, he has this Damascus
• 1:56:04
  Road experience where the Lord Yahweh in His
• 1:56:07
  infinite grace sends His Son incarnate, sends
• 1:56:12
  His Son in a revelation moment in His glorified
• 1:56:17
  body, right, in a revelation moment on the road
• 1:56:20
  to Damascus, reveals Himself as Jesus and unfolds
• 1:56:24
  this and reveals and calls and basically tells
• 1:56:31
  him, go preach to the Gentiles. Go to the ends
• 1:56:34
  of the earth. We talked about that, Isaiah 66.
• 1:56:36
  He calls to that. And then Paul doesn't then
• 1:56:41
  go see Cephas, who is Peter, in Jerusalem, and
• 1:56:46
  he doesn't go see the other apostles. Instead,
• 1:56:48
  it says that he goes to Arabia. And then after
• 1:56:51
  Arabia, he goes back to Damascus. And then after
• 1:56:54
  three years, In Damascus, he then goes and visits
• 1:56:58
  the apostles in Jerusalem. So, there's a lot
• 1:57:03
  of interesting things here about Paul. Yeah.
• 1:57:05
  Do you know what's in Arabia? Why would he mention
• 1:57:08
  Arabia? I actually don't know. I'm curious. I've
• 1:57:15
  been trying to think, what's the big thing I
• 1:57:16
  can pull out here? I don't know what it is. Okay,
• 1:57:19
  and this will be how we end this. Okay. Because
• 1:57:21
  it's not an NDE thing. But it's one of those
• 1:57:24
  things where it's Paul's visions. It's these
• 1:57:26
  moments with Paul. And we even talked about the
• 1:57:29
  fact that when Paul sees this vision of Jesus,
• 1:57:32
  he goes blind. Yeah. So like the first thing
• 1:57:34
  that happens is he goes blind. And it's like
• 1:57:36
  this idea that like the heavens are revealed
• 1:57:38
  to him and his earthly eyes can't handle it.
• 1:57:41
  Yeah. So you kind of understand like, did he
• 1:57:43
  make him blind? Maybe. But also it could have
• 1:57:45
  just been the glory of the Lord shined upon him
• 1:57:47
  and his eyes couldn't handle it, had to readjust
• 1:57:49
  to the earth. Right. But then It's weird that
• 1:57:54
  then Paul's like, nah, I went to Arabia and then
• 1:57:56
  I went to Damascus. Why doesn't he say what's
• 1:58:01
  in Arabia? I'm so excited. This is speculative.
• 1:58:06
  Okay. We did give a speculation warning. So speculation
• 1:58:09
  warning, speculation warning. However, a very,
• 1:58:14
  very known specific thing that's in Arabia and
• 1:58:19
  knowing that Paul He himself is saying I didn't
• 1:58:24
  go and I wasn't taught this hmm He says in Galatians
• 1:58:28
  1 that this was given to me as a revelation from
• 1:58:32
  God So the gospel that I preached to you was
• 1:58:36
  a revelation from God that I received from God
• 1:58:39
  and Then that's what I preached to you right
• 1:58:42
  and that revelation from God was not taught to
• 1:58:45
  me by any man not by the Apostles he says When
• 1:58:49
  the Son of God came to me and revealed Himself
• 1:58:52
  to me in the infinite grace of Yahweh, I then
• 1:58:56
  went first, not to any man, but I went to Arabia.
• 1:58:59
  What's in Arabia, Paul? That's what I've been
• 1:59:02
  asking. You're leaving me, you're teasing me.
• 1:59:08
  What is in Arabia is Mount Sinai. So the Sinai
• 1:59:19
  Valley, the area where they believe that Mount
• 1:59:24
  Sinai is, is in Arabia. So there is a good chance
• 1:59:30
  that when Paul says, I went to Arabia and then
• 1:59:33
  back to Damascus, that he went to Mount Sinai
• 1:59:36
  and met with God the same way that Moses does
• 1:59:38
  when he receives the law. That's wild. Again,
• 1:59:49
  speculation warning. Yep. However... But that's
• 1:59:53
  the kind of speculation I'm into. Also, he doesn't
• 1:59:56
  expand on it. No. But there's a lot of context
• 2:00:00
  that would point us to... Yeah. Well, Arabia
• 2:00:03
  must be important for some reason because Paul's
• 2:00:06
  not from Arabia. No. Paul's from Asia Minor.
• 2:00:08
  And especially because he's giving us the context
• 2:00:10
  that I was taught the gospel by God. Yes. Yeah.
• 2:00:15
  And what does he point to? He points to the place
• 2:00:18
  where the law is received. Yeah. So it brings
• 2:00:21
  validity. Which has also given an interesting
• 2:00:24
  view that we've talked about Paul. Yes. And what
• 2:00:26
  does he do for the church? It's like, well, just
• 2:00:29
  as Moses establishes the kingdom of Israel. Right.
• 2:00:34
  In the law of God. In the law of God. Paul does
• 2:00:36
  the same thing with establishing the churches
• 2:00:38
  and like, hey, this is how you're supposed to
• 2:00:40
  operate. And it's like, so he takes on a very
• 2:00:42
  like mosaic type role for the churches. And so
• 2:00:47
  it's actually even more interesting if he did
• 2:00:50
  go to Mount Sinai. Because that's such a significant
• 2:00:54
  place for Moses. But the way he writes it in
• 2:00:57
  Galatians one, it all centers around Arabia being
• 2:01:01
  the critical point. And we're just supposed to
• 2:01:05
  know, like Arabia. Oh yeah, of course. So maybe
• 2:01:10
  we'll check in about that, maybe we won't. That's
• 2:01:14
  fascinating though. Yeah. Yeah, that's really
• 2:01:16
  cool. Well, see you later on Martyrs Row. We're
• 2:01:22
  just leaving them on that.