Latest / Draw Me Anything with Jason Chatfield / DMA#38: India Ink, Insomnia, and Internet Thieves with Margreet DeHeer

Transcript

DMA#38: India Ink, Insomnia, and Internet Thieves with Margreet DeHeer · Draw Me Anything with Jason Chatfield

0:00
SPEAKER_03: Welcome, everyone.
0:00
SPEAKER_03: This is another episode of Draw Me Anything.
0:04
Today,
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a very special guest all the way from northern Germany right
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now is Magritte de Heer.
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SPEAKER_03: Welcome, Magritte.
0:12
SPEAKER_03: How are you doing?
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SPEAKER_03: Magritte.
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SPEAKER_03: I was trying to say it correctly, but I have a silly accent.
0:17
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
0:18
SPEAKER_00: I love how you say it, Magritte.
0:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's do it like that.
0:22
You are originally from the Netherlands,
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but you're in Germany right now.
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SPEAKER_03: You're a comic artist,
0:27
SPEAKER_03: previous comics laureate,
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which I was impressed to see that because I've never heard of a
0:35
comics laureate
0:36
SPEAKER_03: before.
0:36
SPEAKER_03: Can you tell me what that entails?
0:39
SPEAKER_00: It's basically a sort of ambassadorship for comics.
0:43
SPEAKER_00: And in the Netherlands, it meant, you know, if anything...
0:48
newsworthy was going on with comics and the press was looking
0:51
for a representative
0:52
then we as comic artists would have one person to point to
0:56
which was me for three
0:58
years and I also got a sort of like special assignment that I
1:04
could do myself and
1:06
what I chose to do was get graphic novels into high schools or
1:11
a reading list for
1:13
SPEAKER_00: Dutch lessons there's a literature reading list
1:17
And yeah,
1:20
graphic novels needed to go on there,
1:21
but teachers don't know where to start.
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SPEAKER_00: They don't know what's out there, how to find it.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: So I made a guide for that.
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SPEAKER_03: That's fantastic.
1:29
SPEAKER_03: Are you noticing, I mean, it probably is more prevalent in Europe than in
1:34
the US but in the US I'm noticing tons and tons of like classic
1:39
titles are being
1:39
adapted into graphic novels now because it's a more accessible
1:43
medium for a lot of
1:44
young readers but also I mean even like not even just young
1:47
readers now like a lot
1:48
of people are preferring to read the graphic novelization of
1:51
everything from like
1:52
Moby Dick to War and Peace like are you noticing that in Europe
1:55
as well a lot of
1:56
SPEAKER_03: adaptations?
1:57
SPEAKER_00: Have you come across Lord of the Flies yet?
1:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I saw that, yeah.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: By R. Amy de Jong.
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SPEAKER_00: She's a Dutch comic artist as well.
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SPEAKER_00: I clearly known her from when she was just a small comic artist.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so, no, it's a trend, definitely.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_03: It's interesting to me,
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SPEAKER_03: coming from Australia,
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SPEAKER_03: where comics and cartooning has really thought of this,
2:20
SPEAKER_03: like,
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SPEAKER_03: very,
2:22
SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: silly,
2:23
SPEAKER_03: puerile,
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SPEAKER_03: childish,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: thing.
2:25
And for cartoonists,
2:26
cartoonists generally get taken very seriously in Australia.
2:30
SPEAKER_03: It's kind of this thing where people think it's like a hobby.
2:33
SPEAKER_03: It's not really a job.
2:35
SPEAKER_03: And it's interesting because, I guess,
2:42
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
2:42
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I have different views on it.
2:44
SPEAKER_03: When I was the president of the Australian Cartoonist Association,
2:46
SPEAKER_03: I used to get asked,
2:48
SPEAKER_03: similar to like your comics laureate role,
2:50
SPEAKER_03: people,
2:51
SPEAKER_03: the press would ask about things,
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but their questions really spoke volumes about how they
2:55
perceive comic artists and
2:57
SPEAKER_03: cartoonists.
2:58
SPEAKER_03: And it was that it was just this silly little,
3:00
SPEAKER_03: you know,
3:01
SPEAKER_03: funny,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
3:03
SPEAKER_03: meaning,
3:03
SPEAKER_03: not meaningless,
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SPEAKER_03: but just like,
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SPEAKER_03: You know, just fluff.
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SPEAKER_03: Whereas when I went to France and Belgium and Amsterdam,
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SPEAKER_03: people treat comic artists,
3:13
SPEAKER_03: cartoonists,
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SPEAKER_03: as like royalty in some of these places.
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SPEAKER_03: It's a valued medium.
3:18
SPEAKER_03: It's a really, like the awards for these things are huge.
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The praise,
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but also just like the reverence for the form is so deep and
3:29
abiding.
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SPEAKER_03: And it seems more of a cultural thing than anything.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: Well,
3:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you got that vibe in Amsterdam,
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SPEAKER_00: because in general,
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SPEAKER_00: Holland is the same as Australia.
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People think comics are just for kids,
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and how do you make a living of it?
3:44
SPEAKER_00: But we have Belgium and France pretty close by.
3:48
We always point over there,
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like,
3:50
over there we're rock gods,
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why not here?
3:54
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, do you know RIDEP?
3:59
It's a cartooning sort of conference where they get one
4:01
cartoonist from each
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SPEAKER_03: country and they go to Karkafu in France,
4:04
SPEAKER_03: near Nantes.
4:05
SPEAKER_00: No, no.
4:06
SPEAKER_03: I've been to Angoulême once.
4:07
SPEAKER_03: Angoulême's amazing.
4:08
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I've been wanting to go forever.
4:10
SPEAKER_03: I follow Angoulême.
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Every year I follow everyone who's there on social media and I
4:14
follow along because
4:14
SPEAKER_03: I've always wanted to go.
4:16
SPEAKER_03: But the timing's always off for me.
4:19
SPEAKER_03: I will go one day.
4:20
SPEAKER_03: It looks amazing.
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The Redepth thing really opened my eyes because I went in 2012
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to France and I met
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all these other cartoonists from all over Europe and Asia and
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Central and South
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SPEAKER_03: America.
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And I realized that there's a big difference in the way that
4:39
both the artists and
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SPEAKER_03: the work are perceived.
4:43
SPEAKER_03: and paid for.
4:43
SPEAKER_03: The pay rates are totally different.
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But also that like,
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I was there with the UK cartoonist and the American cartoonist
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and we were
4:52
SPEAKER_03: you know,
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looking at each other and talking quietly because there was a
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Tunisian cartoonist,
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SPEAKER_03: an Iranian cartoonist.
4:58
SPEAKER_03: Uh, there was a Sudanese cartoonist who had been exiled to Qatar.
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SPEAKER_03: There was a Chinese cartoonist who again had been also,
5:04
SPEAKER_03: he was in hiding for doing anti propaganda cartoons.
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SPEAKER_03: And we were like, these guys are like freedom fighters.
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SPEAKER_03: We're just like court jesters.
5:11
SPEAKER_03: We're silly, you know?
5:13
SPEAKER_03: And it kind of, it made me realize, oh yeah, this is maybe why, um,
5:18
it's it's like it perceived differently in different cultures
5:21
is like for us we're
5:21
kind of lucky that we're not like doing cartoons against some
5:24
kind of dictatorial
5:25
regime until now uh but but you know but you know it just felt
5:30
very like a very
5:31
different vibe you know yeah yeah yeah you know you're just
5:36
pretty much describing
5:37
how i felt at the lakes comics festival last fall and yeah i
5:41
was also you know yeah
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SPEAKER_00: international comic artists from all kinds of sites and
5:46
SPEAKER_00: It's just lovely to get together and feel that the field is so big.
5:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
5:52
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it is big.
5:53
SPEAKER_03: And I didn't realize how big.
5:54
SPEAKER_03: I went to Kendall for the first Lakes International Comic Arts Festival.
5:57
Julie sort of put together this insane list of comic artists
6:02
that I had obviously
6:03
SPEAKER_03: never met or seen.
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SPEAKER_03: And again, it opened my eyes to just how massive the industry is.
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including,
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by the way,
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I mean,
6:12
my whole world is cartoonists and cartoons and comic artists.
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SPEAKER_03: And our common friend, Alex Hallett, who I see is on the stream.
6:19
SPEAKER_03: Hi, Alex.
6:22
SPEAKER_03: Actually,
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she just mentioned she was offered one of those graphic novel
6:25
adaptation jobs over
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SPEAKER_03: Christmas,
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SPEAKER_03: but the timelines were awful.
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And she said,
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I think they do it because with the help of AI,
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they don't need a writer.
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SPEAKER_03: Oh, that's interesting.
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SPEAKER_03: I didn't know that.
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SPEAKER_03: Dan McConnell said,
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SPEAKER_03: cartoon...
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SPEAKER_03: Oh,
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SPEAKER_03: yeah,
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SPEAKER_03: an adaptation of 200 pages of the United States Constitution art by Aaron
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SPEAKER_03: McConnell.
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SPEAKER_03: Wow, that'd be an interesting adaptation.
6:49
SPEAKER_03: Our common friend Alex Hallett
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SPEAKER_03: and myself, we were talking on a previous episode of Draw Me Anything.
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SPEAKER_03: And just talking about the state of comics and comic art,
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SPEAKER_03: we both came from newspaper comic strips,
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SPEAKER_03: which are now,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
7:06
SPEAKER_03: almost completely defunct.
7:07
SPEAKER_03: And just the medium and what a powerful medium it is and how...
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SPEAKER_03: it's being affected by things like AI.
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I don't know if you are noticing that because I want to kind of
7:20
talk about your
7:21
SPEAKER_03: book in a second,
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but I want to talk about process and how you work because
7:25
you've had quite a
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SPEAKER_03: wide-ranging career.
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And so I want to know sort of how you're noticing the new sort
7:31
of tools and
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SPEAKER_03: technology affecting your work.
7:35
SPEAKER_00: Well, short answer, I don't feel that yet.
7:40
SPEAKER_00: Yes, probably.
7:42
SPEAKER_00: Could also be because I'm sort of in my own bubble.
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SPEAKER_00: I just don't want to see it.
7:47
SPEAKER_00: Well,
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SPEAKER_00: I think you wrote a brilliant piece about it as well,
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that there is also a sort of counter movement that you see
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people wanting more art
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SPEAKER_00: that is dirty.
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SPEAKER_00: I think you called it dirty.
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SPEAKER_00: I love that.
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SPEAKER_00: You can see the blood, sweat, and tears.
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SPEAKER_00: You can see it's not AI.
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SPEAKER_00: Art that you can see is made by a human.
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And beyond that,
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people,
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like here on Substack,
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they want to see us,
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Jason.
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SPEAKER_00: Eight caring people want to see us.
8:24
SPEAKER_00: They want to see that there are real people behind the art.
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SPEAKER_00: So I have hope.
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SPEAKER_00: I have hope yet.
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SPEAKER_00: And the people who are happy to illustrate their stuff with AI,
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SPEAKER_00: They were never going to give us good jobs anyway.
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SPEAKER_00: Maybe I'm too naive, but that's how I feel.
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SPEAKER_03: No,
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I ask every different artist because sometimes I wonder if I am
8:45
sort of down the
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SPEAKER_03: rabbit hole on this stuff.
8:47
SPEAKER_03: My chair just swooped in.
8:49
SPEAKER_03: My dog is running around down here, by the way.
8:50
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you know Morris.
8:52
SPEAKER_03: I took him out this morning.
8:55
SPEAKER_03: Morris, go, sit.
8:57
SPEAKER_03: He's okay.
8:58
SPEAKER_03: He's okay.
8:59
SPEAKER_03: This is going live with a dog.
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
9:03
SPEAKER_03: I think the human element,
9:04
SPEAKER_03: the wobble in the line,
9:06
the way that you can see someone's personality in their line
9:10
work instead of it
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SPEAKER_03: being sort of too perfect.
9:13
I think there is certainly a huge cohort of people who really
9:16
still prefer to see it.
9:18
SPEAKER_03: and also put a face to a name like we're doing now,
9:21
SPEAKER_03: like actual humans behind the writing and behind the art,
9:24
SPEAKER_03: sort of seeing that we are real humans.
9:27
SPEAKER_03: That's definitely a factor in it.
9:30
SPEAKER_03: And as you say,
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SPEAKER_03: I think you're quite right that the people who are sort of so...
9:35
SPEAKER_03: I don't want to say ethically compromised.
9:37
SPEAKER_03: That's too judgmental, I think.
9:39
SPEAKER_03: They just don't really understand the notion of like...
9:45
what using those tools does to the remainder of the people who
9:49
are working in that field.
9:50
SPEAKER_03: You know,
9:51
SPEAKER_03: it just kind of wipes out the remainder of the people who...
9:54
SPEAKER_03: It was already difficult to make a living as an artist.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you lose your jobs to start your career.
10:00
SPEAKER_00: That's definitely true.
10:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:03
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I'm more... Yeah, I was just...
10:07
trying to look away from the negative stuff and make a bridge
10:12
to the next thing.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm a firm believer in crowdfunding.
10:16
SPEAKER_00: And I think even as a starting artist,
10:19
SPEAKER_00: you can start building your crowd through small crowdfunding things.
10:23
And then you get your own people around you who are interested
10:27
in your art,
10:29
SPEAKER_00: in you as a person,
10:30
SPEAKER_00: you as a struggling artist.
10:32
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the way forward for all of us cartoonists.
10:36
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think that's right.
10:38
SPEAKER_03: I'm glad you said that because I often wonder the 1,000 true fans model,
10:43
SPEAKER_03: the Kevin Kelly 1,000 true fans model.
10:45
Just like find your people and find enough of them that will
10:48
pay for your work,
10:50
SPEAKER_03: that show up and they like what you do.
10:52
SPEAKER_03: Don't try and please the whole world, you know.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: Put numbers on that for the people out there.
10:57
SPEAKER_00: If you have 1,000 true fans and true fans, let's say that each one
11:02
SPEAKER_00: wants to give you $100 a year for your art.
11:05
SPEAKER_00: That's not even too much.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: Most people can afford that.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: So that would mean $100,000 a year.
11:11
SPEAKER_00: You can easily live off that.
11:13
So with a relatively small group of 1,000 people,
11:17
you have a career,
11:19
you have a life.
11:20
Now,
11:21
1,000 is,
11:22
for me,
11:22
I think I am about 30 true fans,
11:27
the people I can always count on to...
11:30
SPEAKER_00: to support me at any campaign.
11:32
SPEAKER_00: And for a campaign, I can usually ruffle up at least 100 people.
11:39
SPEAKER_00: But even then,
11:40
SPEAKER_00: with 100 people who are ranging from true fans to just fans to,
11:45
SPEAKER_00: hey,
11:45
SPEAKER_00: I just found this and it looks kind of interesting,
11:48
you can at least pay for your projects and have a little bit of
11:52
profit and
11:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you can build on that.
11:56
And let's not forget the great positive feedback you get
12:01
through such actions and
12:04
SPEAKER_00: the people who are saying,
12:05
SPEAKER_00: yes,
12:06
SPEAKER_00: I want your work.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: Just every little,
12:10
SPEAKER_00: every euro,
12:11
SPEAKER_00: every dollar that they give to a campaign is sort of like,
12:13
SPEAKER_00: oh,
12:13
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
12:14
SPEAKER_00: they really love me.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: You know, seeing subscribers leaving on Substack.
12:20
SPEAKER_00: Right.
12:21
SPEAKER_00: There's another one unsubscribed because you posted too much.
12:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
12:26
Well,
12:26
I tend to celebrate the unsubscribes because it just means they
12:30
weren't for you.
12:31
SPEAKER_03: You're condensing down the core of your people.
12:34
SPEAKER_03: If people flake off, that's fine.
12:36
SPEAKER_03: They're not for you.
12:37
SPEAKER_03: That's okay.
12:39
Yeah,
12:39
I turn off any notifications that talk about unsubscribe or any
12:42
of that stuff.
12:43
SPEAKER_03: I don't track that at all.
12:45
SPEAKER_03: But I do want to talk to you about something you just raised,
12:47
SPEAKER_03: which is,
12:48
SPEAKER_03: it's a field that I don't know a lot about.
12:50
SPEAKER_03: And...
12:52
you really seem to know a lot about it because you've had some
12:54
great success with it.
12:56
SPEAKER_03: Um, and that is crowdfunding.
12:58
In 2020,
13:00
I spoke to,
13:01
I did an interview for the National Cartoonist Society's Rubin
13:05
Awards.
13:05
SPEAKER_03: We did a virtual Rubins that year because of the pandemic.
13:08
SPEAKER_03: So,
13:08
SPEAKER_03: um,
13:09
SPEAKER_03: we did like an online Zoom with Jake Parker,
13:12
SPEAKER_03: who's the,
13:13
SPEAKER_03: you know,
13:13
SPEAKER_03: the founder of Inktober and several other things.
13:16
And we talked about crowdfunding with him,
13:18
like GoFundMe and Indiegogo and,
13:20
um,
13:22
SPEAKER_03: Then we had the founders of Zoop talking about their product.
13:25
SPEAKER_03: And it was pretty new back then.
13:27
SPEAKER_03: It was kind of a fairly new platform.
13:30
SPEAKER_03: And I knew nothing about any of this stuff.
13:33
SPEAKER_03: And then I saw Tom Richmond,
13:35
SPEAKER_03: the cartoonist,
13:37
SPEAKER_03: the sort of parody,
13:38
SPEAKER_03: movie parody cartoonist and caricaturist from Mad Magazine.
13:41
SPEAKER_03: He did a great book.
13:45
SPEAKER_03: with Desmond Devlin, who's a writer for MADD.
13:48
SPEAKER_03: And it was called Claptrap.
13:50
SPEAKER_03: And he crowdfunded that.
13:52
SPEAKER_03: And I thought it was really successful.
13:54
SPEAKER_03: I thought it was really interesting to watch him.
13:56
SPEAKER_03: He kind of explained what he was doing as he went.
13:58
SPEAKER_03: So I was kind of learning about it.
14:00
SPEAKER_03: But I still really... I've never crowdfunded anything.
14:02
SPEAKER_03: But you have,
14:03
SPEAKER_03: including your latest book,
14:04
SPEAKER_03: which congratulations,
14:05
SPEAKER_03: you've already hit your...
14:06
SPEAKER_03: Within like,
14:06
SPEAKER_03: what,
14:07
SPEAKER_03: 24 hours?
14:07
SPEAKER_03: It already...
14:09
got funded it's incredible can you talk about that for a while
14:11
because i selfishly
14:13
i just want to learn more about it i have i really don't know
14:15
how it works yeah
14:17
well uh i'm both an expert and a complete noob because uh i'm
14:21
an expert in holland
14:22
on it uh i've done uh six crowdfundings now on the most common
14:27
uh platform here
14:28
which is for the kunst know all the ins and outs i know the
14:30
people behind the the
14:33
SPEAKER_00: platform themselves and i help a lot of
14:35
SPEAKER_00: people out here with their own campaigns.
14:37
SPEAKER_00: So I feel I've got that down.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: And when I start a campaign here in Holland, I'm not nervous at all.
14:43
SPEAKER_00: I know it will succeed one way or another.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: I also have a very good publisher here who is very active in helping me,
14:52
SPEAKER_00: Personalia Publishing,
14:53
SPEAKER_00: whom I actually convinced to also get into crowdfunding.
14:57
SPEAKER_00: So now we have a publisher,
14:59
a comics publisher in Holland who does all of the publications
15:04
are crowdfunded.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: And I'm behind there pulling the strings as well.
15:10
SPEAKER_02: That's great.
15:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm an expert in Holland,
15:13
SPEAKER_00: and last month I started on Zoop for my big philosophy book,
15:19
SPEAKER_00: a big one,
15:20
SPEAKER_00: big-ish one for $6,000,
15:21
SPEAKER_00: which...
15:23
has not been funded yet so i'm a bit nervous about that and
15:27
then out of the blue
15:28
sort of i did a just started last weekend a small kick my first
15:33
kickstarter and
15:35
that was for just 500 euros for a small press booklet of all
15:39
the web comics i did
15:41
in the past two months because i did the january thing that
15:44
hallie bateman started
15:45
SPEAKER_01: yeah
15:46
yeah yeah that sort of it started spontaneously and it spoiled
15:51
spilled over into
15:52
february for me because there was so much going on i didn't
15:55
want to stop in january
15:56
and in the end i've got this 60 pages of uh diary narrative
16:03
with a happy end as
16:04
SPEAKER_00: well so i thought yeah i really want this as a book to hold for myself um
16:09
And a small Kickstarter like that helps me pay the printing
16:15
costs and then some,
16:16
SPEAKER_00: so I have a little profit on that as well.
16:18
Plus,
16:19
I make my 30 true fans happy because they can contribute and
16:25
order the book.
16:27
SPEAKER_00: So, what was your original question?
16:29
SPEAKER_03: Well, I kind of want to know how it works.
16:31
I mean,
16:31
you funded this book and within,
16:33
well,
16:33
funded,
16:34
you put out this campaign for this book.
16:37
You,
16:38
I think you posted it and within about a day or so,
16:41
you'd already hit your,
16:43
your goal.
16:43
SPEAKER_03: Is there a stretch goal?
16:44
SPEAKER_03: Is there some extra level to this?
16:47
SPEAKER_00: No,
16:47
SPEAKER_00: I,
16:48
SPEAKER_00: I,
16:48
SPEAKER_00: um,
16:49
SPEAKER_00: this became about very spontaneous,
16:51
SPEAKER_00: but I've been thinking about doing a Kickstarter for three years now.
16:54
SPEAKER_00: And I have even,
16:56
SPEAKER_00: you know,
16:56
SPEAKER_00: almost started one,
16:58
SPEAKER_00: but I,
16:58
SPEAKER_00: then I got cold feet and this was really spontaneous and it's,
17:03
SPEAKER_00: um,
17:04
SPEAKER_00: It's just the 500 euros.
17:06
SPEAKER_00: I knew I was going to make that.
17:10
And you can make a Kickstarter also bigger by offering add-ons
17:16
and by doing stretch calls.
17:17
And I've gone in just saying,
17:20
you know,
17:21
I'm going to do a very simple Kickstarter.
17:23
SPEAKER_00: People can order the book.
17:25
uh just just the book or the book signed or the book plus an
17:29
interesting extra
17:30
which i'm not going to reveal just now people in holland know
17:34
how i do that because
17:35
i do that extra every crowdfunding here i come up with
17:39
something crazy extra and
17:42
they trust me on that so so i did that i gave those three
17:46
options and yeah it's
17:49
SPEAKER_00: it's funded already
17:51
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
17:52
SPEAKER_03: That's fantastic.
17:53
SPEAKER_03: I mean, congratulations.
17:54
SPEAKER_03: I saw... I find your work fascinating not just because I love your style.
18:01
SPEAKER_03: I really enjoy your style.
18:02
SPEAKER_03: It's very accessible and very well-crafted.
18:05
SPEAKER_03: And I know you've been working for a long time.
18:07
You have this very clear sense of how to use the form and
18:14
storytelling and structure.
18:16
SPEAKER_03: It's really...
18:19
SPEAKER_03: some of the topics are very,
18:20
SPEAKER_03: very complicated and can get very esoteric,
18:22
SPEAKER_03: very dense very quickly.
18:23
SPEAKER_03: So you're able to kind of break them apart to make them more digestible.
18:27
SPEAKER_03: Things like theology and philosophy are such dense and complex things,
18:33
but you seem to be able to use comics to really pull them apart
18:37
and make them more
18:38
SPEAKER_03: accessible and understandable.
18:39
SPEAKER_03: Do you want to talk about that for a while?
18:41
Because you were studying theology,
18:42
right,
18:43
at the University of Amsterdam?
18:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:46
Actually,
18:46
when I left school,
18:47
I first went to the film academy,
18:49
but I flunked there.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: It was too much technology.
18:53
SPEAKER_00: And then I just reverted to what all of my family has done before.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: Theology.
18:59
Both of my parents are reverends or ministers in the Dutch
19:03
Protestant church.
19:04
SPEAKER_00: And my grandfather even was a professor in theology.
19:08
SPEAKER_00: So I felt kind of safe.
19:10
If I do that,
19:12
I should have the right genes to actually finish it,
19:16
which I did.
19:17
But then by the end,
19:18
I thought,
19:18
no,
19:19
I definitely don't want to become a minister.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to work in the church.
19:23
SPEAKER_00: I just want to draw.
19:26
SPEAKER_00: During my studies,
19:29
I kind of discovered that I really wanted to do that because I
19:33
drew a comic for the
19:36
SPEAKER_00: paper of the faculty called The Adventures of Jesus.
19:42
SPEAKER_03: I've read that book.
19:43
SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's not called The Adventures of Jesus.
19:48
SPEAKER_03: It's got a big cross on the front and everything.
19:49
SPEAKER_03: But yeah, pretty much I've read that book.
19:51
SPEAKER_03: Wouldn't it be great if the Bible was called The Adventures of Jesus?
19:55
SPEAKER_03: I think more people would read it.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
19:58
SPEAKER_00: Although he's not in it much.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: Theology is weird.
20:02
Just the New Testament is the adventures of Jesus and
20:05
everything before that is the
20:06
SPEAKER_00: adventures of God with Israel.
20:09
SPEAKER_03: Right, yeah.
20:09
SPEAKER_03: I mean, Jesus is like this butch of it and then the rest of it is just...
20:15
SPEAKER_03: I was raised...
20:18
SPEAKER_03: My family didn't practice any particular religion,
20:20
SPEAKER_03: but then I went to an Anglican school,
20:21
SPEAKER_03: an Anglican high school.
20:23
And when we did Bible study,
20:26
I was very...
20:27
I guess,
20:27
you know,
20:28
my brain is wired for like...
20:30
I guess it's a bullshit detector because for comedy and for
20:32
editorial cartooning
20:33
SPEAKER_03: and for all this sort of stuff,
20:34
SPEAKER_03: you just kind of start building these questions.
20:36
SPEAKER_03: You like, you start interrogating things and go, wait, why is that?
20:39
SPEAKER_03: Hang on.
20:39
SPEAKER_03: That doesn't make any sense.
20:40
SPEAKER_03: Like calling out inconsistencies and things like that.
20:43
SPEAKER_03: And it becomes this kind of, my Bible studies teacher hated me.
20:46
SPEAKER_03: Mrs. Lee was just like, can you stop asking questions?
20:48
Because I just,
20:51
and I would like draw pictures about what we were learning
20:53
about.
20:54
SPEAKER_03: And, um,
20:56
SPEAKER_03: I guess my experience with it was that I,
20:59
SPEAKER_03: as excited as I was to kind of just learn so many things,
21:03
SPEAKER_03: I'm like,
21:03
SPEAKER_03: oh,
21:04
SPEAKER_03: wow,
21:04
SPEAKER_03: I didn't know anything about any of these stories.
21:07
SPEAKER_03: As excited as I was to learn, I was also just as ready to...
21:14
SPEAKER_03: ask,
21:14
SPEAKER_03: like try to pick it apart,
21:16
SPEAKER_03: you know,
21:16
reverse engineer it and pick it to pieces and figure out the
21:19
bones of it and go,
21:19
SPEAKER_03: okay,
21:20
SPEAKER_03: so why?
21:21
SPEAKER_03: Where did this come from?
21:22
And then going all the way back to the Dead Sea Scrolls and
21:24
bits that were written
21:25
SPEAKER_03: in Hebrew and Aramaic and Greek.
21:27
SPEAKER_03: There was some written in Greek and just like translations.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: That's why theology is so interesting because the stuff that,
21:35
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:35
most people who are in churches won't let you do is stop asking
21:38
questions.
21:39
in theology you get to delve into that and they had these big
21:43
charts showing like
21:45
okay this piece of new testament it was uh uh yeah appears in
21:51
all these different
21:52
books and we can deduce that it must have been another uh
21:55
source for it which is
21:56
gone lost the the source q and uh it all together like this on
22:01
this and this in
22:01
SPEAKER_00: this timeline and i was like
22:04
You know,
22:05
this is man's work,
22:07
putting together a book of 66 books,
22:10
basically.
22:11
And theology acknowledges that,
22:13
so I don't understand why Christians are so squeamish about it.
22:18
SPEAKER_00: Because for me, it makes it just all the more interesting.
22:21
SPEAKER_00: It's history, it's poetry, everything, yeah.
22:26
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
22:27
SPEAKER_03: it's a fascinating thing to illustrate,
22:28
SPEAKER_03: I guess,
22:28
SPEAKER_03: as well,
22:29
SPEAKER_03: because you're really drawn to the material.
22:31
SPEAKER_03: You understand it,
22:32
SPEAKER_03: you are fascinated by it,
22:34
SPEAKER_03: and you can tell that you have a passion for it the way that you work.
22:40
SPEAKER_03: By the way,
22:40
SPEAKER_03: anyone,
22:40
SPEAKER_03: we've got a lot more people here now,
22:42
SPEAKER_03: anyone who didn't tune in at the very beginning,
22:44
SPEAKER_03: this is Magritte Dehir.
22:47
She is a comic artist from the Netherlands,
22:50
and we're talking today,
22:52
she's in
22:53
northern germany right now i'm in new york city uh if anyone
22:56
hasn't yet there's a
22:57
subscribe button just up the top here uh if you hit that orange
23:01
subscribe button
23:01
you can get her Substack uh you can subscribe to her Substack and
23:05
uh she does
23:06
fantastic work and shares her comics some exclusive stuff that
23:09
she doesn't share
23:10
anywhere else but also these fantastic comics about philosophy
23:13
and and all kinds of
23:14
SPEAKER_03: things um before we move on and by the way anyone who is new here uh
23:19
SPEAKER_03: Anyone who's been here before would know that at about halfway through,
23:23
SPEAKER_03: we flip the camera and draw and take your request.
23:26
SPEAKER_03: So in the comments section,
23:30
let us know if you want us to draw anything in particular and
23:33
we can have a go at
23:34
SPEAKER_03: sketching.
23:34
SPEAKER_03: That's the draw me anything part of it.
23:36
I do want to go back just slightly about your latest book
23:42
because I noticed...
23:45
something happened that I had heard about on the Comic Lab
23:48
podcast with Brad Geiger
23:51
SPEAKER_03: and Dave Kellett,
23:52
SPEAKER_03: which was kind of a scam,
23:54
SPEAKER_03: I guess.
23:54
SPEAKER_03: It was like a spammy, scammy thing.
23:58
SPEAKER_03: Do you want to kind of explain?
23:59
SPEAKER_03: Because I don't think a lot of people know about these.
24:00
SPEAKER_03: There's some people who are new,
24:03
SPEAKER_03: myself included,
24:04
SPEAKER_03: new to crowdfunding and don't quite understand the mechanics of it,
24:06
but also don't know how these scams work with crowdfunding as
24:10
soon as you list a
24:11
SPEAKER_03: campaign.
24:11
SPEAKER_03: Do you want to talk about that a little bit?
24:13
Yeah,
24:14
it's in the subject that I wrote yesterday for if people want
24:17
to look it up.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: It's called News, News, News.
24:20
And it's something I just found out this week when I,
24:23
for the first time,
24:23
started a Kickstarter.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: Because this has never happened before to me in a calm...
24:29
SPEAKER_00: rural Holland,
24:31
SPEAKER_00: that as soon as I launched my campaign there,
24:35
SPEAKER_00: there was someone contributing to it,
24:39
SPEAKER_00: even before I put it out to the world,
24:41
SPEAKER_00: at the highest tier.
24:42
And then I was sent a message saying,
24:45
oh,
24:45
your work is so innovative and interesting.
24:48
And please contact me by emailing back at me because I'm not
24:52
too much on the
24:53
SPEAKER_00: Kickstarter platform.
24:55
SPEAKER_00: And this I have heard about from Brad and Dave.
24:59
It's the equivalent of being lured away from the busy high
25:03
street into a dark alley.
25:05
SPEAKER_00: No, we can have a more private talk over here.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what they do then and what they promise,
25:11
but eventually you have to pay something and then you're never
25:15
going to get it
25:16
SPEAKER_00: back.
25:16
SPEAKER_00: And
25:17
SPEAKER_00: I didn't, um, respond.
25:19
SPEAKER_00: So the next day, this, uh, backer, uh, withdrew the pledge.
25:25
SPEAKER_00: That's the thing with Kickstarter.
25:26
SPEAKER_00: You, you, it's just a pledge.
25:27
You say,
25:28
yes,
25:28
I,
25:29
I am,
25:30
I do want to contribute,
25:31
but the money is only gathered up at the end.
25:35
SPEAKER_00: While in Holland,
25:36
SPEAKER_00: when you contribute to a campaign,
25:38
SPEAKER_00: you actually pay the money on,
25:40
SPEAKER_00: on,
25:40
SPEAKER_00: at the moment that you contribute.
25:42
SPEAKER_00: So that's, in, in that sense, you're, you're sort of like, it's, um,
25:47
SPEAKER_00: you're protected from that kind of scam.
25:50
And then I got another mail supposedly from the Kickstarter
25:54
support group saying,
25:55
SPEAKER_00: oh,
25:55
your campaign is so great and we have all kinds of ideas to
25:58
make it greater.
25:59
SPEAKER_00: But I could see that the email address was kickstarter at gmail.com.
26:05
SPEAKER_00: Always look at the... Kickstarter would never have a Gmail address.
26:09
SPEAKER_00: They would have something from kickstarter.com.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: So forget that one.
26:14
SPEAKER_00: But that seemed pretty harmless as well.
26:16
SPEAKER_00: But then I got another one.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: And this one mentioned me by name.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: It said, Mr. Margrethe here.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: And it had the name of my campaign in the subject, build and play.
26:28
SPEAKER_00: And it said, it's an urgent message.
26:29
SPEAKER_00: And it was from notification bot at Kickstarter.
26:34
SPEAKER_00: at notifications at kickstarter.com looked really, really genuine.
26:38
SPEAKER_00: And there were no spelling mistakes in there.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: And it started with this whole blog saying like,
26:46
SPEAKER_00: we at Kickstarter would never scam you and we are protecting you.
26:50
SPEAKER_00: And it was by the safety and protection team or something like that.
26:54
And I knew it was a scam,
26:56
but I was looking for the clues to see why is it a scam?
27:00
SPEAKER_00: And I couldn't find them.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: The mail is very,
27:03
SPEAKER_00: very sneaky and it's very urgent because it says,
27:06
we're suspending your account and no one can see your campaign
27:09
right now because we
27:10
SPEAKER_00: have a problem with processing money.
27:13
SPEAKER_00: So here's a link, go there and you can make it right.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: Don't go to that link.
27:18
SPEAKER_00: Don't go to the link at all, of course.
27:20
SPEAKER_00: And I found out because I typed in notification bot,
27:24
SPEAKER_00: Kickstarter scam,
27:25
and I found several Facebook posts by people who had
27:29
Kickstarter campaigns as
27:31
SPEAKER_00: recent as January warning about this.
27:34
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
27:35
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
27:35
SPEAKER_03: So it's relatively new?
27:36
SPEAKER_00: I think so, yeah.
27:39
SPEAKER_00: And they called it a pretty sophisticated scam as well.
27:42
So I thought,
27:42
you know,
27:43
this needs to go out into the world soon before people fall for
27:46
it.
27:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
27:48
SPEAKER_03: Thank you for letting us know about it.
27:49
SPEAKER_03: Because I had actually,
27:50
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
27:51
SPEAKER_03: I had heard Brad and Dave talk about it and I didn't really know,
27:56
SPEAKER_03: again,
27:56
SPEAKER_03: because I'm not sure of the mechanics of how that works.
27:59
SPEAKER_03: I didn't know that they kind of hold the money,
28:02
SPEAKER_03: where you are,
28:02
SPEAKER_03: they hold it kind of what,
28:03
SPEAKER_03: like in escrow almost,
28:04
SPEAKER_03: like they kind of hold it for you before...
28:07
SPEAKER_03: Whereas it's just a pledge here.
28:09
It's just like the money doesn't come out of your credit card
28:11
until it gets funded.
28:13
And so I guess that is a perfect setting for some scams where
28:18
they do put money in
28:21
SPEAKER_03: as a way to kind of get you on the hook.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: That's fascinating.
28:27
Brad had something about someone said,
28:29
well,
28:29
I want to order $2,000 worth of stuff from you.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: But we need to hash it out in this communication.
28:37
SPEAKER_00: And the stupid thing is then the 2,000 is visible on the campaign.
28:44
SPEAKER_00: So it looks like you have this whole bunch of money.
28:47
But Dave at that point knew already,
28:50
yeah,
28:50
this money is going to disappear.
28:52
So you have to keep that in mind that even though you're at a
28:55
certain level on the
28:56
SPEAKER_00: campaign,
28:57
SPEAKER_00: that's not going to be the end result.
29:00
SPEAKER_00: The result is going to be less than that.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: Right, okay.
29:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was warned about this, but yeah.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, very different.
29:14
SPEAKER_03: That's really important.
29:14
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
29:15
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'm going to post up a replay of this probably tomorrow.
29:19
And I'm going to write that up for people because I think
29:21
that's a really important
29:23
SPEAKER_03: thing for people to know about the mechanics of these scams.
29:26
SPEAKER_03: Because there are so many.
29:27
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
29:28
I mean,
29:28
across all of these different things,
29:30
I don't know if you've received the scam.
29:31
A lot of cartoonists,
29:33
we kind of share with each other,
29:35
especially here in the States,
29:39
SPEAKER_03: on like group chats and emails about, hey, did you get this one?
29:42
SPEAKER_03: Did you get this one?
29:43
SPEAKER_03: Is this one a scam?
29:44
SPEAKER_03: This one looks too good to be true.
29:45
It's usually someone saying,
29:46
hey,
29:46
I want to buy an original piece of artwork.
29:48
SPEAKER_03: I found this on your store.
29:49
SPEAKER_03: I want to buy this, this, and this.
29:50
SPEAKER_03: And they,
29:51
SPEAKER_03: you know,
29:51
SPEAKER_03: quote some ridiculous amount of money,
29:53
SPEAKER_03: but it's...
29:53
SPEAKER_00: Make it up front or at least half up front or something like that.
29:57
SPEAKER_00: A cartoon is certainly hesitant about asking for money, but you have to.
30:01
SPEAKER_03: You have to, I know.
30:03
And it's a tough lesson to learn because by just doing spec
30:07
work or just like work
30:08
SPEAKER_03: before getting a deposit or anything,
30:11
SPEAKER_03: it's such a...
30:13
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
30:14
As you say,
30:14
cartoonists sometimes just feel apologetic for asking for money
30:19
for their work.
30:20
SPEAKER_03: Like your dentist doesn't feel sheepish about that.
30:22
SPEAKER_03: Why should you?
30:23
SPEAKER_03: You're an expert.
30:24
SPEAKER_03: Why would you feel sheepish about asking someone to pay you for your job?
30:27
SPEAKER_00: Because we have fun doing what we do, Jason.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: That's the crime.
30:31
SPEAKER_00: So why not give it away for free?
30:35
SPEAKER_03: What a crime.
30:38
There's another one that I noticed,
30:39
another scam that artists are getting.
30:42
SPEAKER_03: It's sort of,
30:44
SPEAKER_03: it's usually,
30:45
it's like a conference organizer or something and they usually
30:47
lead with something
30:48
SPEAKER_03: about I'm deaf or I have some kind of medical disability,
30:51
SPEAKER_03: some kind of disability.
30:54
And then they talk about wanting to pay to have your work used
30:59
in some kind of
31:01
I don't know,
31:02
convention or...
31:03
And it's like a variation on a theme,
31:05
each one of these scams.
31:06
And often what it is is they pay...
31:09
They can only pay you in like a...
31:10
What do you call it?
31:11
SPEAKER_03: Not a traveler's check, but like a money order or something like that.
31:14
SPEAKER_03: And then they...
31:16
get you to send them the difference because they send you too
31:19
much money they send
31:20
you too much and then they ask you to send them the difference
31:23
or something like
31:24
that and it's just very scammy and spammy and weird but um a
31:28
lot of people fall for
31:29
it unfortunately even like veteran cartoonists i've seen
31:32
unfortunately just fell
31:33
for it because they were like oh yeah well this just seems like
31:35
a thing you know
31:36
they're like why would anyone do this this seems very mean to
31:38
do if this is the
31:39
SPEAKER_03: scam but they do it
31:40
SPEAKER_03: And artists are not impervious from scams.
31:44
SPEAKER_03: Every kind of industry has their scam artists.
31:48
SPEAKER_03: I want to flip the phones and start sketching with you,
31:52
but not without noticing what an incredible room you have
31:56
behind you and the light
31:58
SPEAKER_03: that you have there.
31:58
SPEAKER_03: This is ridiculous.
32:00
SPEAKER_03: I'm so jealous.
32:01
SPEAKER_03: This is after a renovation you did, right?
32:04
SPEAKER_00: And I just closed the curtain.
32:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is just over a month ago.
32:11
SPEAKER_00: A solid wall behind me here.
32:16
SPEAKER_00: You can see it here.
32:18
SPEAKER_00: And it was two rooms and they were dingy and dirty and smelling.
32:25
SPEAKER_00: And we broke it open and this room behind me was on the north side.
32:28
SPEAKER_00: So it hardly ever saw any sun.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: And now you can see the sun streaming in.
32:32
And I,
32:33
well,
32:33
as it was,
32:34
January and February Diary,
32:36
I comic journaled about it.
32:38
SPEAKER_00: So if people want to read that, it's all on my sub stack.
32:42
SPEAKER_00: And if you want the book, go to Kickstarter.
32:44
SPEAKER_00: Go to Kickstarter and get that book.
32:46
SPEAKER_00: Even scammers can get the book if they pay.
32:49
SPEAKER_03: If they pay, yeah.
32:52
I want to talk a little bit more about the book and about your
32:54
process of doing the
32:55
book because I want to talk about something I can't stop
32:58
talking about with other
32:59
SPEAKER_03: cartoonists.
33:00
And it's not that I think that tools are some kind of magical
33:03
thing that make you draw well.
33:04
SPEAKER_03: I know it's the artist, it's whoever's holding the tool.
33:07
But I am always so fascinated by,
33:09
especially internationally,
33:11
who is using what?
33:12
SPEAKER_03: So you have what looks like, is that a mechanical pencil?
33:15
SPEAKER_03: What is that?
33:15
SPEAKER_03: No, no, that's a dip pen.
33:17
SPEAKER_03: With a... What nib is that?
33:19
SPEAKER_03: I'm trying to see it.
33:21
SPEAKER_03: What is it?
33:22
SPEAKER_03: That's not a Hunt, is it?
33:23
SPEAKER_03: That's not a... No, it's a... Cloakwell?
33:28
SPEAKER_03: No, is it a Hunt 102?
33:30
SPEAKER_00: I've got no idea.
33:31
SPEAKER_03: But it's a dip pen.
33:34
SPEAKER_03: It's a dip pen.
33:35
SPEAKER_00: Dip pen, yeah.
33:36
SPEAKER_00: We call it an on-call.
33:37
SPEAKER_03: I love dip pens.
33:38
Yeah,
33:38
with this kind of...
33:40
But I'm actually cheating a little bit,
33:42
Jason,
33:43
because I've put
33:45
I put this in here because I know that you're very much into
33:48
the analog tools,
33:49
SPEAKER_00: and I'm much more into digital nowadays.
33:51
SPEAKER_00: But this is how I started out.
33:52
SPEAKER_00: My first comics were made with these,
33:54
SPEAKER_00: and I loved this pen for a long,
33:57
SPEAKER_00: long time,
33:58
SPEAKER_00: but it became a little bit impractical.
34:01
I love just making my comics in bed,
34:04
and it becomes dangerous after a while.
34:07
SPEAKER_03: Having an inkpot in bed is a bit of a hazard.
34:12
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's true.
34:13
SPEAKER_03: By the way, I have something from you on my wall.
34:15
SPEAKER_03: I have this above my drawing board.
34:16
SPEAKER_03: I kept it.
34:23
SPEAKER_03: You sent this to me, I think, in 2024.
34:26
SPEAKER_03: Yes, I have.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: With the love book.
34:30
SPEAKER_03: Yes, that's right.
34:31
SPEAKER_03: Which is great, by the way.
34:33
SPEAKER_03: I'm sure I emailed you about it, but I really enjoyed that.
34:36
SPEAKER_03: You did a book.
34:37
Do you want to explain what that book was to people who may not
34:40
know what it is?
34:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's the fifth book in my series called Discoveries in Comics.
34:45
SPEAKER_00: And that's an educational series.
34:48
SPEAKER_00: And it starts with philosophy, which is crowdfunding now on Zoop.
34:52
I must not forget that because that's the one that's in danger
34:55
of failing.
34:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:57
SPEAKER_00: So Zoop, philosophy.
34:59
SPEAKER_00: But that whole series ended with a book on love.
35:03
SPEAKER_00: Right.
35:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
35:05
SPEAKER_00: with the idea of gathering educational tidbits about love,
35:10
SPEAKER_00: for instance,
35:12
SPEAKER_00: how to get over a broken heart in Kansas.
35:17
SPEAKER_00: And the timeline of the history of marriage,
35:21
SPEAKER_00: from what marriage meant through all the ages and stuff like that.
35:26
SPEAKER_00: So I love doing timelines, historical timelines.
35:29
SPEAKER_00: And weaving through that is my own love life story.
35:36
which was interesting and which ended or is still going on with
35:41
my husband,
35:42
SPEAKER_00: Jiri,
35:42
SPEAKER_00: who is also in the chat somewhere,
35:44
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure.
35:44
SPEAKER_03: He's a comic artist as well, isn't he?
35:46
SPEAKER_00: He does your color as well.
35:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:49
I can actually also,
35:50
I can really advise that to people,
35:53
to you,
35:54
Jason,
35:55
marry a comic artist.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: It helps.
35:57
SPEAKER_00: Counts of luck against imposter syndrome and against,
36:01
SPEAKER_00: you know,
36:02
SPEAKER_00: thinking that your art is shitty.
36:03
You always have someone there steering you on and who
36:06
understands what you're going through.
36:08
SPEAKER_03: Well, I find that interesting.
36:10
SPEAKER_03: I've always had this rule.
36:13
SPEAKER_03: I say a rule.
36:15
SPEAKER_03: I never date a comedian.
36:17
SPEAKER_03: I'm a comedian,
36:20
and there are very good reasons to not date anyone within your
36:26
professional circles
36:28
SPEAKER_03: and people who do what you do.
36:31
SPEAKER_03: That said, I did date a comic, and then I ended up marrying her.
36:35
SPEAKER_03: So that...
36:36
SPEAKER_03: I mean, that worked out for a while until it didn't.
36:39
SPEAKER_03: And then, yeah, it's just like I keep breaking.
36:44
SPEAKER_03: I've broken that rule now twice.
36:45
SPEAKER_03: So I've never dated a cartoonist, never dated an illustrator.
36:49
SPEAKER_03: And I don't think I could.
36:52
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I...
36:54
SPEAKER_03: I know what you mean about it,
36:55
SPEAKER_03: sort of having,
36:57
SPEAKER_03: I guess,
36:57
a real cheerleader when you're having your imposter syndrome or
37:03
feeling down.
37:04
SPEAKER_03: I think that's a very important and interesting thing.
37:10
SPEAKER_03: I wonder, because you've been together for a while, right?
37:12
I mean,
37:12
when you moved in together,
37:16
and you said you have stepkids as well?
37:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, from a previous relationship.
37:21
SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
37:23
SPEAKER_03: And it's an interesting...
37:25
SPEAKER_03: I don't know,
37:26
I was sort of reading that and I found that very interesting
37:29
that you work with,
37:31
SPEAKER_03: not only with your husband,
37:32
SPEAKER_03: but he does your coloring.
37:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
37:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's also...
37:38
SPEAKER_00: A very good perk.
37:45
SPEAKER_03: Right.
37:46
SPEAKER_03: So in the chat,
37:47
SPEAKER_03: everyone,
37:47
SPEAKER_03: everyone who's watching,
37:50
SPEAKER_03: we've got,
37:51
SPEAKER_03: make sure you put your requests in the chat.
37:53
SPEAKER_03: We've got one from Inge Matz.
37:54
SPEAKER_03: Is it Matz?
37:55
SPEAKER_03: M-A-T-Z.
37:55
SPEAKER_01: Hello, Inge.
37:57
SPEAKER_01: An elephant in love.
37:59
SPEAKER_03: An elephant in love.
38:01
SPEAKER_03: Oh, we've got Adam Ming joining us, the previous guest, Adam Ming.
38:07
SPEAKER_03: He's great.
38:08
SPEAKER_03: His Substack is excellent.
38:09
I don't know if you read,
38:10
he's got several,
38:10
but he has an excellent sub stack.
38:12
SPEAKER_03: Any illustrators or artists, subscribe to Adam Ming.
38:15
um you're using the dip pen and ink i think i'll do the same
38:20
i'll do the same i've
38:21
got i'm using higgins waterproof ink and i'm going to use a my
38:26
trusty old hunt 101
38:28
imperial dip pen um look at something about spring lj anderson
38:34
said all right what
38:35
SPEAKER_03: about an elephant in love in spring
38:39
SPEAKER_03: Okay, I can work with that.
38:41
SPEAKER_03: I can work with those parameters.
38:44
SPEAKER_03: So, Magritte, I wanted to get back to you.
38:46
You were talking about philosophy and you were talking about
38:48
theology and the fact
38:50
SPEAKER_03: that your entire family,
38:53
SPEAKER_03: it seems,
38:54
SPEAKER_03: are all somehow sort of tied up in this,
38:57
SPEAKER_03: I don't want to say field,
38:58
SPEAKER_03: but in this field of,
39:00
SPEAKER_03: well,
39:00
SPEAKER_03: in this...
39:03
SPEAKER_03: I don't know, what would you call it?
39:04
SPEAKER_03: I mean... Yeah, it's a field.
39:05
SPEAKER_03: I guess it's a field, yeah.
39:07
SPEAKER_03: I...
39:10
I'm fascinated by it because it's so alien to me as far as
39:14
family members being in that field.
39:18
SPEAKER_03: So that influenced your work and it influenced your,
39:24
SPEAKER_03: I guess,
39:25
because it's your area of expertise and it's something you
39:27
really know about.
39:28
I think you are obviously uniquely placed to write about it
39:34
with some authority.
39:36
SPEAKER_03: Do you know of anyone else who's really doing that at that level?
39:42
SPEAKER_00: In comics?
39:43
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, in comics.
39:46
SPEAKER_00: No.
39:48
SPEAKER_00: Simply.
39:48
SPEAKER_00: So you really have cards carved out in nature?
39:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I guess so.
39:55
The book on theology that I did was also half a fact on the
40:02
five big religions,
40:04
Islam,
40:05
christianity judaism hinduism and buddhism and the other half
40:10
was my personal uh
40:12
SPEAKER_00: experiences um going through um yeah finding out who you are yourself um
40:21
spiritually and i i was raised uh in protestant church but i i
40:27
i really yeah
40:29
SPEAKER_00: buddhism blew my mind and and and opened my mind and uh
40:34
SPEAKER_00: Meditation really gave me a handle.
40:37
SPEAKER_00: You meditate as well, I remember.
40:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, since November of 2013, I started meditating.
40:45
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be affiliated with any sort of religion.
40:51
SPEAKER_00: But the practice of meditation, it's at the core of every...
40:57
SPEAKER_00: every religion as well,
40:58
SPEAKER_00: I think,
40:59
SPEAKER_00: the mysticism,
41:00
SPEAKER_00: and that's,
41:01
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
41:02
SPEAKER_00: you know what it does for your mind.
41:06
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean...
41:08
SPEAKER_03: I always found that interesting.
41:09
SPEAKER_03: You write about this as well,
41:11
but I've always sort of found it interesting that there is a
41:15
level of mindfulness
41:16
and meditation in a lot of things and also in the notion of
41:20
prayer and the rituals
41:23
SPEAKER_03: in different religions.
41:25
SPEAKER_03: I...
41:29
kind of study it i you know everything from um you know um
41:34
vipassana you know
41:35
traditional sort of vipassana mindfulness meditation but also
41:38
um meta as well you
41:40
know sort of loving kindness meditation and and there are a lot
41:43
of correlations
41:44
SPEAKER_03: with different religions of sort of rituals and things um
41:49
And it is interesting just sort of looking across the ages and
41:53
across the different
41:54
SPEAKER_03: religions and studying different theologies,
41:57
SPEAKER_03: everything from,
41:58
SPEAKER_03: as you say,
41:59
SPEAKER_03: like Islam to Judaism and Christianity and Jainism and Buddhism.
42:04
SPEAKER_03: And it is...
42:06
I think there's something very human about wanting to
42:12
understand the mind,
42:14
SPEAKER_03: not necessarily control the mind,
42:15
but be able to come to a quiet accommodation with the fact that
42:19
you do not
42:20
SPEAKER_03: necessarily control the thoughts you have.
42:22
SPEAKER_03: You have control over...
42:25
SPEAKER_03: how you react or identify with thoughts and feelings,
42:28
but you don't necessarily control what thoughts come into your
42:31
head at any given
42:33
SPEAKER_03: time.
42:34
And I think it's such a valuable skill to have because you can
42:37
be hijacked by your
42:39
SPEAKER_03: thoughts and your mind on any given day,
42:41
SPEAKER_03: depending on any number of factors.
42:45
SPEAKER_03: And it genuinely changed my life when I learned to try and meditate.
42:48
SPEAKER_03: And it's an ongoing thing.
42:50
SPEAKER_03: I still am learning.
42:51
SPEAKER_03: I find myself to be a student of meditation rather than any kind of
42:55
SPEAKER_03: you know, I'm just a practitioner.
42:57
SPEAKER_03: I really think it's a fascinating thing.
42:59
SPEAKER_03: Can you talk about it a little bit?
43:01
SPEAKER_03: You know way more about it than I do.
43:03
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm not sure if that's true.
43:06
SPEAKER_00: But I got into it because I met a tantric Buddhist master,
43:12
SPEAKER_00: and then I got taught by his students.
43:15
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, for me, it was like,
43:18
SPEAKER_00: Well,
43:19
SPEAKER_00: mind-blowing that you can,
43:20
SPEAKER_00: in that way,
43:21
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
43:22
SPEAKER_00: just get a grip on your mind as well,
43:24
SPEAKER_00: you know.
43:25
But then I got caught up in actually the spiritual side of
43:30
things because there's
43:31
SPEAKER_00: this feeling,
43:32
SPEAKER_00: and maybe that's a Western way of interpreting life,
43:37
SPEAKER_00: that,
43:37
SPEAKER_00: you know,
43:38
SPEAKER_00: you've got to get somewhere.
43:40
SPEAKER_00: You've got to reach the goal.
43:43
SPEAKER_00: Arrive.
43:44
Yeah,
43:44
you got to arrive,
43:45
you got to put in the work and then reap the rewards.
43:50
And the goal of meditation is to just be in the moment and to
43:58
be fully there.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: I had this idea, no, no, now I can't wait until I reach enlightenment.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: When will that happen?
44:08
SPEAKER_00: I've got to try harder.
44:10
SPEAKER_00: So that's a pitfall of the whole meditation journey.
44:13
SPEAKER_00: But it's a fun pitfall and it's a common pitfall.
44:16
And yeah,
44:18
so I guess you came in completely from the secular side,
44:22
didn't you?
44:23
SPEAKER_03: Well,
44:24
SPEAKER_03: actually,
44:24
SPEAKER_03: when I initially learned,
44:26
SPEAKER_03: I learned TM,
44:27
SPEAKER_03: Transcendental Meditation,
44:28
which I stopped doing because I didn't like the religious culty
44:32
aspects of it.
44:33
SPEAKER_03: I found that part of it to be a little... I don't know.
44:37
Like I said,
44:37
my bullshit detector is too finely tuned to adhere to things.
44:43
SPEAKER_03: Although having a mantra did help.
44:45
SPEAKER_03: Having a mantra-based meditation did help for my ridiculous monkey mind.
44:50
SPEAKER_03: That said, I...
44:52
I find it fascinating that different people take different
44:55
things from meditation.
44:56
SPEAKER_03: I think there's a there's a tendency,
44:58
SPEAKER_03: as you say,
44:58
SPEAKER_03: especially in Western culture,
45:00
SPEAKER_03: to sort of arrive for there to be a goal.
45:03
SPEAKER_03: And it should like start here and then arrive here.
45:05
SPEAKER_03: And it's like, all right, I've done it.
45:06
SPEAKER_03: I'm enlightened.
45:07
SPEAKER_03: I've arrived here.
45:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm there.
45:10
SPEAKER_00: I'm better than you.
45:11
SPEAKER_03: There is no arriving.
45:13
SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's just being.
45:14
SPEAKER_03: It's just existing.
45:15
SPEAKER_03: And it's so much harder than it sounds.
45:18
SPEAKER_03: It's such a difficult thing to do,
45:21
SPEAKER_03: especially when our attention has been hijacked every day,
45:25
when our nervous systems are ramped up to 11 because of our
45:28
fight or flight,
45:29
SPEAKER_03: because of things like social media and the news.
45:32
SPEAKER_03: It's so hard to just rally enough,
45:37
SPEAKER_03: even confidence to think that you can do it,
45:40
SPEAKER_03: let alone actually in earnest trying to meditate,
45:45
SPEAKER_03: to figure out how to understand your mind.
45:49
I found a really interesting hack in the last year,
45:53
and I should read up at some point.
45:56
SPEAKER_00: I got into it from a therapeutic kind of angle, which is with...
46:07
SPEAKER_00: I want to say rapid eye movement, but that's not what it's called.
46:10
SPEAKER_00: But it has to do with moving your eyes.
46:12
SPEAKER_00: You know,
46:13
when you have a therapist sitting in front of you and then
46:16
waving their finger back
46:17
SPEAKER_00: and forth,
46:18
SPEAKER_00: and then you go through a traumatic experience.
46:20
That idea,
46:21
and I wanted to do that with a therapist,
46:24
but couldn't find one.
46:24
SPEAKER_00: And then I just lay on my bed at night and I started just,
46:29
SPEAKER_00: you know,
46:30
SPEAKER_00: with my eyes closed,
46:32
SPEAKER_00: rolling my eyeballs from right to left.
46:35
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
46:36
SPEAKER_00: and going over the events in my head that I was having trouble with.
46:41
SPEAKER_00: And immediate effect.
46:43
SPEAKER_00: It's like because you're doing something with your muscles,
46:52
SPEAKER_00: between your brain and your body.
46:54
SPEAKER_00: And it's sort of like,
46:55
SPEAKER_00: it disconnects the energy going from any thought,
47:01
SPEAKER_00: you know,
47:01
SPEAKER_00: happy energy,
47:02
SPEAKER_00: but in this case,
47:03
SPEAKER_00: just not happy energy,
47:05
SPEAKER_00: to go down into your body and making you tense up.
47:10
SPEAKER_00: Because your energy is going to moving your eyeballs,
47:15
SPEAKER_00: simply just moving your eyeballs,
47:17
SPEAKER_00: it takes up enough energy that...
47:21
SPEAKER_00: you're not expanding that energy into making the terrible thoughts worse,
47:28
SPEAKER_00: which makes it easy to just look at them the way they are.
47:32
SPEAKER_00: Objectively.
47:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
47:34
SPEAKER_00: what we do in meditation,
47:35
SPEAKER_00: you know,
47:36
you try to just detach yourself from all the stuff that the
47:44
thoughts do to you.
47:46
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I don't know.
47:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure that everyone's brain works differently, but this works.
47:51
SPEAKER_00: It's a miracle thing for my brain.
47:53
It's just,
47:54
you know,
47:55
just move your eyeballs from right to left or do it for just a
47:59
minute.
47:59
SPEAKER_00: Count it out.
48:01
SPEAKER_00: And I personally feel my body relax immediately.
48:05
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
48:07
SPEAKER_03: That is an interesting one.
48:08
SPEAKER_03: And the neurology of it.
48:11
SPEAKER_03: The notion of why that works is fascinating to me.
48:15
SPEAKER_03: And it disconnects you from the rumination loop, I guess, as well, right?
48:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's my theory.
48:23
SPEAKER_00: But that must be it because it's so immediate.
48:27
SPEAKER_00: You don't have to put in any effort or you don't have to wait.
48:30
SPEAKER_00: It's just immediate.
48:33
SPEAKER_03: That's so interesting.
48:34
SPEAKER_03: Try it.
48:35
SPEAKER_03: I'm going to try it.
48:37
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely, I'm going to try it.
48:39
SPEAKER_03: I sometimes have trouble,
48:40
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you have this,
48:42
SPEAKER_03: especially when you're on a deadline,
48:43
SPEAKER_03: you've been working all night at the drawing board and your brain,
48:47
SPEAKER_03: you're wired,
48:47
SPEAKER_03: you're...
48:50
Having trouble switching your brain off and then you go to bed
48:53
and your brain is
48:54
just like running a million miles an hour still and you can't
48:57
sort of turn it off.
48:58
SPEAKER_03: You can't slow it down.
48:59
SPEAKER_03: There's all kinds of different things.
49:00
Like I try to roll my eyes into the back of my head and count
49:03
backwards from 100.
49:04
SPEAKER_03: I try to do box breathing.
49:06
We breathe in for four,
49:07
hold for four,
49:08
out for four,
49:08
and then nothing for four.
49:10
SPEAKER_03: There's all these different things I try, but sometimes nothing works.
49:13
SPEAKER_03: Sometimes you're just like, no, you're just going to be in insomnia.
49:16
SPEAKER_03: It's really hard.
49:19
SPEAKER_03: Really hard.
49:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:22
SPEAKER_00: I think you said at some point you have ADHD.
49:26
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I do.
49:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:30
SPEAKER_00: I definitely don't have that.
49:31
SPEAKER_00: So maybe that's easier for me to just focus on the
49:37
SPEAKER_00: right and left.
49:37
SPEAKER_00: But you could give it a try tonight and let me know how that works.
49:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I will.
49:44
SPEAKER_03: Again,
49:44
SPEAKER_03: it sounds like it breaks a pattern,
49:47
SPEAKER_03: which is why I'm fascinated by it,
49:48
SPEAKER_03: because the H part of ADHD is hyperactive,
49:51
SPEAKER_03: and people think that that means you're physically hyperactive.
49:54
SPEAKER_03: It's not necessarily so.
49:55
SPEAKER_03: It's more the mind and what that is doing.
49:58
SPEAKER_03: And it is a... You're trying to...
50:05
rally your mind in such a way to sort of corral your mind in
50:09
such a way that it
50:10
doesn't just completely run away with you and and take you you
50:14
know to places you
50:16
don't want to go and it's hard it's an ongoing journey and
50:20
there's all kinds of
50:21
SPEAKER_03: different it's part of why meditation is such a big part of my
50:27
When I do that,
50:29
it really helps with that particular neurological dysfunction.
50:34
SPEAKER_00: Do you also consider drawing a form of meditation?
50:39
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely, I always have.
50:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
50:45
SPEAKER_00: And I found out more and more that not everyone has that with drawing.
50:52
SPEAKER_00: So embrace it, Jason.
50:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's so great to have that.
50:57
SPEAKER_03: Well, I consider myself very lucky that I have that.
51:02
Someone,
51:02
Joey,
51:03
just said,
51:04
to fall asleep,
51:05
alphabetize animals or kitchen supplies or tools.
51:08
SPEAKER_03: It gives your brain two tasks and puts you out.
51:14
SPEAKER_03: We had another suggestion,
51:15
SPEAKER_03: by the way,
51:16
SPEAKER_03: in the comments from,
51:18
SPEAKER_03: I think it's Dan McConnell,
51:22
SPEAKER_03: which was leaping leprechauns for St.
51:24
SPEAKER_03: Paddy's Day.
51:25
SPEAKER_00: Oh, gosh, leprechauns.
51:27
SPEAKER_00: Oh, gosh.
51:28
SPEAKER_00: I'll start with four-leaf clover.
51:33
SPEAKER_03: Nice.
51:34
SPEAKER_03: Is St.
51:35
Patrick's Day celebrated in where you are or in Amsterdam as
51:40
much as it is the rest
51:41
SPEAKER_03: of the world?
51:42
SPEAKER_03: Is it quite big?
51:42
SPEAKER_00: No, just in the Irish pubs.
51:45
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay.
51:46
SPEAKER_03: It's pretty big in New York.
51:47
SPEAKER_03: I mean, there's a lot of Irish people in New York.
51:49
SPEAKER_03: A lot of New York was built by the Irish.
51:52
SPEAKER_03: But it's massive over here.
51:54
SPEAKER_03: Everyone gets involved and there's a parade.
51:56
SPEAKER_03: It's crazy.
51:57
SPEAKER_03: Even bigger in Boston.
51:59
SPEAKER_00: Cool.
51:59
SPEAKER_00: Cool.
52:00
SPEAKER_00: Well, is it cool?
52:02
SPEAKER_00: Do you celebrate with it?
52:05
SPEAKER_03: I got a lot of Irish friends.
52:06
SPEAKER_03: I have a ton of Irish friends over here.
52:08
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, a lot of them are other bartenders or comedians.
52:11
SPEAKER_03: But yeah, surprise, surprise.
52:14
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
52:15
SPEAKER_03: I always thought the leprechaun,
52:17
SPEAKER_03: like I've never really considered it to be...
52:21
SPEAKER_03: Because the leprechaun is,
52:23
SPEAKER_03: you know,
52:24
SPEAKER_03: it's a funny...
52:28
SPEAKER_03: You know,
52:29
SPEAKER_03: I always thought when I saw a leprechaun,
52:32
SPEAKER_03: I thought,
52:32
is that offensive to Irish people or is it just something they
52:35
really embrace and
52:37
SPEAKER_03: own it?
52:37
SPEAKER_03: Because it's effectively...
52:40
SPEAKER_03: I guess,
52:40
SPEAKER_03: you know,
52:41
SPEAKER_03: people,
52:42
SPEAKER_03: when they speak to Irish people,
52:44
SPEAKER_03: they kind of,
52:45
SPEAKER_03: they have stereotypes that they use as they do with any culture,
52:48
SPEAKER_03: you know.
52:49
SPEAKER_03: But the leprechaun,
52:49
SPEAKER_03: I always thought,
52:50
I wonder if they actually like that or if that's like offensive
52:54
when I mention
52:56
SPEAKER_03: leprechauns and things to the Irish.
53:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I haven't heard about it.
53:01
SPEAKER_00: But I haven't, well, I lived in Scotland for two years, a long time ago.
53:06
SPEAKER_00: I also did the theology there.
53:09
SPEAKER_00: And they had St.
53:10
SPEAKER_00: Patrick's Day.
53:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Irish and Scottish cultures are pretty linked.
53:17
SPEAKER_00: But I never heard of the...
53:18
SPEAKER_00: I don't remember,
53:19
SPEAKER_00: at least,
53:20
SPEAKER_00: that they were talking about leprechauns.
53:22
SPEAKER_00: They're just talking about beer.
53:25
SPEAKER_00: Well, sure.
53:26
SPEAKER_03: Maybe it's just us that talk about leprechauns.
53:29
SPEAKER_03: Maybe it's just non-Irish.
53:31
SPEAKER_03: I did my years and years and years ago,
53:34
SPEAKER_03: and I'm sure my data has been scraped and sold a million times now,
53:38
SPEAKER_03: but I did the 23andMe DNA testing to see where my ancestors were from.
53:44
SPEAKER_03: Me too.
53:44
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
53:44
SPEAKER_03: Where did yours hail from?
53:46
SPEAKER_00: Well, all Northern Europe.
53:48
SPEAKER_00: Very boring.
53:48
SPEAKER_00: Very nice.
53:50
SPEAKER_03: Mine are all Northern Europe.
53:52
SPEAKER_03: It's UK, Ireland, Scotland.
53:55
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's very predictable.
53:58
SPEAKER_03: Very predictable for an Australian.
54:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, my great-grandfather was in the UK.
54:04
SPEAKER_03: He delivered milk for the Queen, the royal dairy.
54:09
SPEAKER_03: And he came down to Australia for the gold rush to start a new life.
54:14
SPEAKER_00: Well, okay, whoa, whoa, whoa, back up.
54:17
SPEAKER_00: Delivering milk to the queen.
54:20
SPEAKER_00: And then you want to go dig gold in Australia?
54:23
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
54:24
SPEAKER_00: Something happened there, Jason.
54:26
SPEAKER_03: Scene missing.
54:27
SPEAKER_03: And so I thought,
54:28
SPEAKER_03: uh-oh,
54:28
did he steal a loaf of bread and just get sent down to
54:31
Australia as a convict?
54:32
SPEAKER_03: And it turns out, no.
54:35
SPEAKER_03: He went to the West Coast deliberately because he heard
54:38
that there was gold in Kalgoorlie,
54:40
which is a town about 10 hours out of Perth,
54:43
where I'm from.
54:44
And he got a reference letter from the Royal Dairy,
54:48
and I have the reference letter.
54:50
SPEAKER_03: My grandfather gave it to me just before he died.
54:52
SPEAKER_03: He showed me, and it was incredible.
54:53
SPEAKER_03: They were like,
54:54
SPEAKER_03: we don't usually do reference letters for our employees,
54:57
SPEAKER_03: but considering you're going all the way down to Australia,
55:00
you're probably going to need some evidence that you're not a
55:02
complete no-do-well.
55:03
SPEAKER_03: And...
55:06
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
55:06
SPEAKER_03: and I think he was also part Irish,
55:09
SPEAKER_03: is why I think of it,
55:10
SPEAKER_03: is that he's got British and Irish heritage.
55:14
SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, he started a whole new life in Australia.
55:21
And my mother and my grandfather and aunt and grandmother all
55:27
were raised in a gold
55:29
SPEAKER_03: mining town called Kalgoorlie.
55:31
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
55:32
SPEAKER_03: That's very strange.
55:34
Have you ever considered just doing an autobiographical graphic
55:41
model or something like that?
55:42
SPEAKER_03: You know, I haven't.
55:43
And I think it's probably just because I think it's strange
55:45
because I write about
55:46
SPEAKER_03: my life on Substack all the time.
55:48
SPEAKER_03: I write about what I'm doing and my, you know, my life now.
55:54
SPEAKER_03: And I recently gave a talk at Stanford,
55:56
which kind of did cover a bunch of things in my life that I
56:00
realized in retrospect
56:01
SPEAKER_03: were very,
56:02
SPEAKER_03: could be helpful stuff.
56:03
SPEAKER_03: you know,
56:04
SPEAKER_03: to people who are trying to,
56:05
SPEAKER_03: you know,
56:06
SPEAKER_03: live a life,
56:06
SPEAKER_03: a creative life and start a career.
56:09
SPEAKER_03: It was for students, for the students at the design school at Stanford.
56:13
And I don't know,
56:15
I guess I feel like a little bit like,
56:17
oh,
56:17
who really wants to know that?
56:19
SPEAKER_03: In my head,
56:20
SPEAKER_03: if I drew it up,
56:21
SPEAKER_03: I feel,
56:21
SPEAKER_03: I know it's silly,
56:23
SPEAKER_03: but like,
56:23
I just feel like I would constantly be second guessing what
56:27
people actually even
56:28
SPEAKER_03: want.
56:29
SPEAKER_03: want to know about, you know?
56:31
SPEAKER_03: I've never really done that.
56:32
SPEAKER_00: That's why you need to marry a cartoonist.
56:38
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's funny.
56:39
SPEAKER_03: I do think about it sometimes,
56:42
and I think about writing these graphic novels of things that
56:44
have happened to me
56:45
SPEAKER_03: in New York,
56:47
SPEAKER_03: which I've got some pretty crazy stories that I haven't drawn up yet.
56:51
SPEAKER_03: Some I have drawn up and just never published.
56:54
SPEAKER_03: But yeah, I feel like it's something I could do.
56:56
SPEAKER_03: I just don't know
56:59
I think I need to be really motivated to share those stories in
57:03
that medium.
57:03
SPEAKER_03: I also feel like a complete dilettante when it comes to graphic novels.
57:08
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
57:08
SPEAKER_03: I did a comic strip for 16 years,
57:10
but that is a completely different skill set to comic books and
57:14
graphic novels.
57:15
I mean,
57:16
yeah,
57:16
comic strips are totally a different medium,
57:21
I think,
57:21
you know,
57:22
comparatively.
57:23
SPEAKER_03: So I'd have to really learn how to do it properly.
57:27
Yeah,
57:28
on the other hand,
57:29
you know,
57:29
your own style is what...
57:31
You can do it your own way.
57:33
SPEAKER_00: There's lots of graphic novel classes at the moment going on.
57:37
SPEAKER_00: For instance,
57:37
SPEAKER_00: at Saw,
57:38
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you know that,
57:40
SPEAKER_00: the sequential art workshop,
57:42
SPEAKER_00: they're doing great work,
57:43
SPEAKER_00: giving out also free...
57:47
comics workshops every friday um and yeah that's lovely and i i
57:52
every now and then
57:53
i drop in but i i feel and i've always felt like but but i'm
57:57
autodidact like you
57:59
are yourself thought right because well there was no uh
58:03
cartooning school in uh
58:05
poland at that time but i think that you know finding all this
58:09
stuff out for
58:10
SPEAKER_00: yourself
58:11
It gives you the edge that you are originally true to yourself
58:16
or authentic.
58:18
SPEAKER_00: That's the word.
58:18
SPEAKER_00: I'll keep the buzzword.
58:20
SPEAKER_00: You're authentic.
58:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
58:21
SPEAKER_00: And knowing too much about what other people do that,
58:25
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
58:25
then you start comparing yourself and then you run the risk of
58:30
paralysis in my
58:32
SPEAKER_00: experience.
58:34
SPEAKER_03: I think you're exactly right.
58:35
It's analysis paralysis and it's constantly worrying that it's
58:37
not going to be
58:38
SPEAKER_03: perfect enough for
58:39
SPEAKER_03: That I'm not good enough to do it.
58:42
SPEAKER_03: And,
58:42
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
58:42
SPEAKER_03: I think that's the crippling thing in my head is this ruminating about,
58:45
SPEAKER_03: like,
58:45
SPEAKER_03: you know,
58:46
SPEAKER_03: about not being ready.
58:49
SPEAKER_03: You know, this idea of not being ready.
58:50
SPEAKER_03: But I have to get over that.
58:52
SPEAKER_03: I really have to get over that.
58:54
SPEAKER_03: Here is my leprechaun, by the way.
58:56
SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Dan.
58:56
SPEAKER_03: Oh, wow.
58:58
SPEAKER_00: We're just a real leprechaun.
59:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
59:00
SPEAKER_00: This is mine.
59:01
SPEAKER_00: Nice.
59:01
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
59:01
SPEAKER_00: No, well.
59:02
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
59:07
SPEAKER_00: It's sort of like, yeah, the silly little brother of yours.
59:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, yours got a coin.
59:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, mine's got a beer and milk for the queen.
59:17
SPEAKER_03: I love it.
59:18
SPEAKER_03: That's great.
59:18
SPEAKER_03: On brand, on theme.
59:20
SPEAKER_03: Well, this has been really fun, Magritte.
59:22
SPEAKER_03: I could do this with you again, and I hope I can.
59:27
SPEAKER_03: But before we go,
59:29
SPEAKER_03: I really want to,
59:30
SPEAKER_03: anyone who's joining us,
59:30
SPEAKER_03: I really want to plug your work and your book and your substack.
59:34
SPEAKER_03: Where is the best place for people to find you and your work?
59:40
SPEAKER_00: Margrethehir.com is my site and everything linked out from there.
59:44
SPEAKER_00: And I really want to ask people to check out my crowdfunding on Zoop,
59:49
SPEAKER_00: the philosophy book,
59:51
SPEAKER_00: because that has just one more week to go.
59:56
SPEAKER_00: And it's, as we say in Holland, clenching my butt cheeks.
1:00:02
SPEAKER_00: Is that an American saying as well?
1:00:06
SPEAKER_03: No, maybe, maybe.
1:00:08
SPEAKER_03: It might have been adopted here.
1:00:09
SPEAKER_03: I do remember in Amsterdam when I was walking around,
1:00:12
SPEAKER_03: someone told me I had to have eyes in my ass because of the bikes.
1:00:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, ook in je achterstak.
1:00:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:00:20
SPEAKER_00: There you go.
1:00:27
SPEAKER_03: And if people want to find the book and they would look on...
1:00:32
SPEAKER_03: Well,
1:00:33
SPEAKER_03: I guess they go to your Substack,
1:00:34
SPEAKER_03: right?
1:00:34
All of the information and the links are on your Substack and
1:00:37
your website.
1:00:39
SPEAKER_00: Or go to zoop.gg.
1:00:42
SPEAKER_00: And then it's one of the three campaigns that's running right now.
1:00:46
SPEAKER_00: So if people would check that out.
1:00:48
And one of the big things I'm selling over there is a
1:00:52
one-on-one Zoom chat with me,
1:00:54
SPEAKER_00: like we're doing now for an hour.
1:00:57
SPEAKER_00: And as you can see, I can draw.
1:00:59
SPEAKER_00: And then I can draw what people want in that hour.
1:01:02
SPEAKER_00: And then you own the drawings for your blog or,
1:01:08
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:01:08
SPEAKER_00: all the things that you could have AI do for free,
1:01:12
SPEAKER_00: but don't.
1:01:14
SPEAKER_03: Yes, but don't.
1:01:14
SPEAKER_03: That's fantastic.
1:01:17
SPEAKER_03: All right.
1:01:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, everyone get onto that.
1:01:19
SPEAKER_03: And please, everyone, subscribe.
1:01:20
SPEAKER_03: I mean, you've got two sub-stacks, is it?
1:01:26
SPEAKER_00: I've got three.
1:01:27
SPEAKER_03: Three.
1:01:28
SPEAKER_03: It is three.
1:01:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:01:29
SPEAKER_00: I've got my main one, which is Margrethe's comics.
1:01:32
SPEAKER_00: And then I've got Philosophy, which I... Yeah, there's the book.
1:01:36
And I've got Minnie comics,
1:01:37
which is...
1:01:38
We haven't even talked about that.
1:01:40
It's my queer comics about a bisexual girl called Minnie and
1:01:43
her friends and adventures.
1:01:45
SPEAKER_00: That's a whole other story.
1:01:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:01:47
SPEAKER_03: Fantastic.
1:01:48
SPEAKER_03: Well, we're going to have to do this again and talk about that.
1:01:50
SPEAKER_03: I'll have you back on and we'll draw it together again.
1:01:53
SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
1:01:54
You've always been such a big supporter of mine and with my
1:01:56
Substack and you're a
1:01:57
SPEAKER_03: paid subscriber.
1:01:58
SPEAKER_03: I really, really appreciate that.
1:02:00
SPEAKER_00: You're a big role model for me on Substack.
1:02:03
SPEAKER_00: I love the way you do it and also that you don't plan things.
1:02:07
SPEAKER_00: You just put it out the way you feel it.
1:02:10
SPEAKER_00: You write the stuff you want sometimes.
1:02:12
you don't post anything for a week and sometimes,
1:02:14
you know,
1:02:15
many times a day.
1:02:16
SPEAKER_00: That's an inspiration for me.
1:02:18
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to plan those things either.
1:02:19
SPEAKER_00: It needs to be spontaneous.
1:02:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
1:02:22
I think if it's falling out of me and it feels like something I
1:02:24
want to say,
1:02:25
SPEAKER_03: I'm just going to put it out and not worry about,
1:02:27
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:02:27
SPEAKER_03: schedules and things like that,
1:02:28
SPEAKER_03: really.
1:02:29
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, if I can.
1:02:30
SPEAKER_03: But yeah, thank you.
1:02:31
SPEAKER_03: That's nice to hear because I am making it up as I go.
1:02:34
SPEAKER_03: So I'm glad that it's of some utility to you.
1:02:38
SPEAKER_03: I'm there for it.
1:02:40
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
1:02:40
SPEAKER_03: And anyone who does want to support, please upgrade to pay.
1:02:43
SPEAKER_03: This replay will go out tomorrow.
1:02:46
SPEAKER_03: It will be paywall,
1:02:47
but you can see a little bit of a preview ahead just in so you
1:02:50
can see some of it
1:02:51
SPEAKER_03: and I'll write up everything we discussed,
1:02:53
SPEAKER_03: including those scams on Kickstarter.
1:02:56
And thank you again for this little note that you sent with the
1:02:59
love book.
1:03:00
SPEAKER_03: I see it every day when I sit down to draw.
1:03:02
SPEAKER_03: It always encourages me.
1:03:05
SPEAKER_03: So that was very sweet of you to send that.
1:03:07
SPEAKER_03: So thank you.
1:03:08
SPEAKER_03: And thank you to everyone who tuned in.
1:03:11
SPEAKER_03: I'll see you on the next one.
1:03:13
And it was so nice to finally meet you face-to-face and draw
1:03:16
and talk with you.
1:03:17
SPEAKER_03: So thank you.
1:03:17
SPEAKER_00: Likewise.
1:03:18
SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much for the opportunity.
1:03:20
SPEAKER_01: See you later.
1:03:21
SPEAKER_01: All right.
1:03:21
SPEAKER_01: See you, everybody.