Latest / The Rave Social Podcast / 56 Selling in the Age of AI: Why You Can’t Outsource Your Voice with Kaili Meyer

Transcript

56 Selling in the Age of AI: Why You Can’t Outsource Your Voice with Kaili Meyer · The Rave Social Podcast

0:13
SPEAKER_01: Hello everyone and welcome back to the Rave Social Podcast.
0:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Jaden, and today we have Kaylee.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: Kaylee is a freaking genius copy copywriter who specializes in sales psychology.
0:27
SPEAKER_01: She literally has a genius brain, and I'm so excited to have her on today.
0:32
SPEAKER_01: We're going to talk about selling and the age of AI.
0:35
SPEAKER_01: Because if you already know Kaylee, you know she is like also the queen of AI.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: She's developed some really cool AI tools for copywriting.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: But in that same realm, there's so it's so nuanced and there's so many things to talk about.
0:47
SPEAKER_01: So we're going to get into that.
0:48
SPEAKER_01: But first, let's welcome Kaylee.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: And why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?
0:53
SPEAKER_00: Ah, I'm so excited.
0:54
SPEAKER_00: Also, I love that sweater.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: Obsessed.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: I've been loving glue lately.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, like we said, so I'm a sales copywriter.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: I started, if we go back to the beginning of my journey, I actually started in magazine, which I think is important to say because everyone kind of lands to copywriting or creative endeavors on a different path, right?
1:16
SPEAKER_00: And I I totally thought like I was gonna be a magazine writer for my life.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: I had this vision of like maybe like cosmopolitan girl.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: I was like eating up 17 magazine as a kid.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: And then I got to be a magazine writer and it was hard work and it was also thankless work.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: You get paid basically nothing.
1:34
SPEAKER_00: So I was like, ta-ta, I'm gonna go ahead and move along.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: Ended up um as a thought capital writer for a Fortune 500 investment company.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: So I got to work in finance, which is another, I would say, hobby of mine.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: I love if you follow me, you know that I love talking about wealth and um wealth strategies from a legal way.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm not out here giving out wealth strategies, but I just love talking about, especially women and women business owners knowing how to make their money work for them.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: So it was really fun to be able to be a thought capital writer in the finance industry.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: But I did get bored after about it two years.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: And so then I left and started Reveal Studio Co., uh, which I still run today.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: Love it, love it, love it.
2:17
SPEAKER_00: But um when I first got into, I guess, doing my own thing, I was more of like a content.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: So I did blogs and web copy.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: And now I pretty much just do web copy sales pages.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: I write email sequences for a few clients, not a ton of people.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: And like you said, yeah, uh like you said, I've been building, really dabbling and seeing what AI can and can't do.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure we'll get into it, but that happened mostly because I wanted to hate it and I still I have feelings toward it.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: It is a very nuanced topic.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: But I wanted to create things that like I understand that hiring a well-qualified copywriter can be pricey and um not everybody wants to use a template, and not everybody can use a template, or not everybody can do X, Y, or Z.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: So creating these tools and utilizing the technology available to us, I wanted people to have the best that they could.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: So that's how I got too.
3:11
SPEAKER_01: That's like one of the best things about you is how much you like your services and offers like reach everyone.
3:18
SPEAKER_01: Like you're you're an incredible, incredible copywriter, and you make your skills available to people in different prices.
3:26
SPEAKER_01: And like I at first, like when I first started my business, I bought like a stand like sales page from you.
3:32
SPEAKER_01: And then I think I got some like Black Friday email templates from you because I wasn't at the stage yet where like I could invest in full-on copywriting.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: And then I just recently hired Kaylee to do my ID888 sales page and some emails for me because now I'm finally there, but like the way you support creators and business owners at every level is just like seriously incredible.
3:55
SPEAKER_01: Like you're so good.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: I love that you're saying that.
3:58
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
3:59
SPEAKER_00: And how fun.
4:00
SPEAKER_00: I love talking to people who have kind of like been along the journey for a couple of years and be like, where did we start?
4:07
SPEAKER_00: Like, what was our first interaction?
4:09
SPEAKER_00: I don't think I knew that that was the first thing you got from me.
4:12
SPEAKER_00: I just know that I immediately was like, oh, this girl's fun.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: Like her content is fun.
4:17
SPEAKER_00: I want to know her.
4:19
SPEAKER_01: So I love that so much.
4:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, so I want to like run it back to when AI started coming out.
4:27
SPEAKER_01: And we're just gonna talk about AI in terms of like copywriting.
4:30
SPEAKER_01: I know there's AI's been around for a long time, but I'd say it was probably two-ish years ago that people started really being like, oh, chat GBT, and like using it.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like when that happened, people were so divided.
4:47
SPEAKER_01: Like, people were like, FAI, like I will never touch that.
4:50
SPEAKER_01: That's horrible.
4:51
SPEAKER_01: Like, no, no, no, don't steal jobs from humans, whatever.
4:53
SPEAKER_01: And then there were people that were like, why would I not use this?
4:56
SPEAKER_01: Like, it's making my life so much easier.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: But they didn't know how to train it, they didn't know how to use it.
5:03
SPEAKER_01: So then all of a sudden, everybody's everybody that was using AI, like it was so obvious.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: Right.
5:09
SPEAKER_01: What are your thoughts on that?
5:10
SPEAKER_01: Like, is that what you saw too?
5:14
SPEAKER_00: You know, I I I agree with the slow rollout.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: Anytime that we see a new technology come onto the scene, it takes a while for mass adoption to happen.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: I believe when TVs were first invented, it took 50 years for them to be mass adopted into the American public home.
5:31
SPEAKER_00: So crazy.
5:32
SPEAKER_00: Crazy.
5:33
SPEAKER_00: And we've kind of seen that timeline be applied across a lot of technological advances.
5:40
SPEAKER_00: And so I definitely think we saw a slow roll and a lot more divide over the in the beginning.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: I think it was like over the use cases.
5:49
SPEAKER_00: Like, is it good?
5:50
SPEAKER_00: Is it even worth it?
5:51
SPEAKER_00: And then on top of that, we have sustainability, ethical issues, which I don't know if we need to get into right this second, but I do want to acknowledge them.
6:00
SPEAKER_00: Um I think I have a couple of thoughts on it being easy to tell.
6:05
SPEAKER_00: So before I share thoughts, we kind of have to just briefly talk about what AI even is.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: AI, as it as it stands, the ones that we're using right now, like when you get onto Chat GPT, basically it has aggregated, like collected all of this material typically created by humans, because to train AI, we didn't quite have AI generated things yet, um, or in mass.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so for writing specifically, it's things like, you know, magazines, books, journalists, um, articles, essays, social media content.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: And it's basically looking for pattern recognition and trying to understand what are the best of the best doing that works.
6:50
SPEAKER_00: And so two things are happening here.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: Number one, people like me, who are professional writers is what I went to school for and what I've done professionally for my entire career, we were already applying a lot of these strategies and these structures, right?
7:06
SPEAKER_00: These weren't new to us.
7:08
SPEAKER_00: But other people who writing isn't their thing, they were new to them.
7:13
SPEAKER_00: So when your friend who used to write very clearly like herself, I think we all know there are those people that when they text us, we don't even need to see their name.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: We know it's them by the way they write.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: So when all of a sudden your favorite creators or brands started putting out content and copy that did not sound like them anymore, yes, it became very obvious.
7:33
SPEAKER_00: And then all of a sudden, everyone sounded the same.
7:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, what was tricky is that it's not that the strategies and the structures were bad.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: They're based on what the best writers were doing.
7:48
SPEAKER_00: It's that AI doesn't know understand cadence or use case, or how often should I use this triad or this parallel structure in a paragraph, or how, you know, and so as a person, I can go this type of metaphor or this syntax works really well for comprehension or engagement, getting somebody to want to continue reading.
8:12
SPEAKER_00: But if I apply it over and over and over and over again, all of a sudden it's lost its power.
8:17
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't do that anymore.
8:19
SPEAKER_00: Right.
8:19
SPEAKER_00: I think I described it in a thread.
8:21
SPEAKER_00: Like you're so I'm also a home cook.
8:23
SPEAKER_00: I love cooking.
8:24
SPEAKER_00: And one of my favorite herbs to work with is rosemary.
8:27
SPEAKER_00: You can't just like apply rosemary at every step of every single recipe and be like, wow, this is so good.
8:34
SPEAKER_00: No, rosemary is good when it's applied well, when it either gets to be a hero flavor or a complimentary flavor, but it's not in every single bite of every single meal.
8:45
SPEAKER_00: That's what we're seeing with AI, is they're putting rosemary, right?
8:48
SPEAKER_00: Figuratively on everything.
8:51
SPEAKER_00: And so do I think sometimes it can be really quote unquote obvious?
8:55
SPEAKER_00: Yes, where we run into a problem is again, if you're just reading a caption or a short piece of copy, it's really easy to spot these things that people are saying are AI tells and be like, that's clearly AI.
9:08
SPEAKER_01: Well, I know it's like I always was triggered by that immediately when people were like, This is obviously AI, because I'm like, I I genuinely used to write like that.
9:20
SPEAKER_01: Like that's actually how I would write captions for clients.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: And so it's like I mean, and now they're just like, it's AI, it's AI, it's AI, which I think puts another creative challenge on anyone, copywriters, creators, content creators, anything.
9:34
SPEAKER_01: Like it puts a creative challenge on you to like, how are you gonna say it, but say it differently?
9:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, which we can get into that.
9:40
SPEAKER_01: But I also had another thought about how AI how AI is trained currently, like you're saying, it takes data from what's already existing.
9:50
SPEAKER_01: I like like Chat GPT is not as smart as you think it is.
9:56
SPEAKER_01: Like I've had chat, I've had chat like put together quizzes for me.
10:01
SPEAKER_01: The answers are legitimately incorrect because it's not discerning like a human when it's reading content.
10:10
SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't know if that was sarcastic or you're telling the truth or you're not telling the truth.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: Like it really can't tell.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: So you have to also consider that when you're considering what it knows about what is the best performing types of content.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: Like you'll go in and ask Claude or chat or whatever, like, write me a copy that would be good for an ad.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't know if that copy's actually good for an ad or if it was on an ad that did well.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: And like those are different things.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: Like that that doesn't mean that it actually is what works.
10:44
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where like the nuance and just paying attention when you're using AI to make sure like it's correct, that you're also doing your own research because like it's not God, it's not like all knowing, and it can totally be wrong.
11:01
SPEAKER_01: Right.
11:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's such a good point to make is that it isn't, I think we think of it as like a brain, like it's somehow being logical or applying strategies that it knows.
11:15
SPEAKER_00: It's in a way doing that, but not in the way you or I would.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: It's going based off of literally what it knows, what it has access to, and how you trained it.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: And like any machine, it can get confused.
11:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, its wires can cross.
11:30
SPEAKER_00: It can think you meant one thing when you meant another.
11:33
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think the over-reliance on AI is where we get into trouble.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: And I think that people use it backward.
11:41
SPEAKER_00: Way too often I'm hearing that people are basically having it feed a first draft and then they're editing it or trying to make it sound more like them.
11:50
SPEAKER_00: That's completely backward.
11:51
SPEAKER_00: The other thing you need to do when you're using AI for copying content is you need to clarify the role you want it to play.
11:58
SPEAKER_00: Because if you just feed it a caption or an idea and you're like, I need help writing a caption, it's gonna do it all for you.
12:05
SPEAKER_00: Instead, you should first develop your strategy.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: Like, this is what I want to do, this is what I know.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: And ideally, you're using um like a custom GPT, or you have really trained your own GPT to understand things like your audience, your voice, what's going on in your industry in the online space with current events, sales psychology strategies, like you have to train it on that first, right?
12:29
SPEAKER_00: So then ideally, what you're doing is you're feeding it your ideas.
12:32
SPEAKER_00: Like, let's say we want it to help us throughout this whole process.
12:36
SPEAKER_00: You feed it your ideas and you say, This is what I'm thinking about writing about.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: Act as a consultant using these parameters and tell me what gaps you're seeing or opportunities I'm missing.
12:46
SPEAKER_00: Great.
12:46
SPEAKER_00: It's not gonna feed you those.
12:48
SPEAKER_00: You take that and you write a first draft.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: When you feed it back to the platform, you say something along the lines of, I am not looking for you to rewrite this.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: I do not need you to start over.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: What I need is and give it very specific parameters and then work with it that way.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: Way too often people are like, What do you think?
13:11
SPEAKER_00: And AI is trained to make you happy.
13:14
SPEAKER_00: It's trained to do what it thinks you want it to do.
13:17
SPEAKER_00: And we want to rewrite the caption, and people go, Oh, well, it must be better.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: Better based on what, though?
13:23
SPEAKER_00: It just did what it thought the job was.
13:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: Like when we're using AI for ourselves and clients, like we are training each individual, I guess, GPT or each individual project to have very specific goals for every single caption structures that we need to use for this specific client.
13:44
SPEAKER_01: Because exactly what you're saying, like, not every caption structure is gonna work for every client.
13:50
SPEAKER_01: Not every sales psychology strategy is gonna work for every single client at every single stage of their business or their launch.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: Like, it has to be like only you know that.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: There's no way your like little robot guy could know that.
14:04
SPEAKER_01: So I think it's just so important to not like exactly what you're saying, just not don't outsource your brain.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: Like use it as a tool to improve or enhance, or maybe even like speed up.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: Like there, that's a pro of of chat or or AI in general, is like you can move a little bit faster.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, but don't let it steal like your power.
14:28
SPEAKER_01: That sounds dramatic, but it's true.
14:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:31
SPEAKER_00: And I think people also want it to be a stand-in for a copywriter or a content creator, and it's just not like a template or like a guide or another resource.
14:43
SPEAKER_00: It's maybe better and likely better than you doing it on your own.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: And better could mean a million things.
14:50
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you don't have capacity, so like you're saying it helps you do things quicker.
14:53
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe you just are like, I'm not a good writer.
14:57
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm just not, I'm too wordy.
14:59
SPEAKER_00: And then maybe it can help you with that.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, but it isn't, it isn't the same as hiring a human.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: And it's likely never going to be the same as hiring a human.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: On that note, do you feel like the bar for like good copywriting is higher or lower?
15:20
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's a tricky question.
15:22
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I have like a clear answer to that.
15:26
SPEAKER_00: I will say I think the brands that continue to use human-generated copy, at least for the next couple of years, are going to be the ones that stand out.
15:34
SPEAKER_00: I think it communicates a couple of things to your audience.
15:37
SPEAKER_00: It communicates that you care enough to actually be the one in charge of your marketing.
15:41
SPEAKER_00: It communicates that um you have the funds to like you're successful enough to pay for a human that you see it as important enough and that you aren't like outsourcing what is arguably outside of the offer itself, arguably the most important part of a business.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: You can't have a business if people aren't um coming to you, if you're not getting clients and customers.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: So we need marketing.
16:05
SPEAKER_00: It's like it's a you need it.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: Um and so it's gonna help you stand out because it's going to sound original.
16:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's going to sound fun, it's going to sound like you.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: And I do think that it's going to help brands reach audiences in a more powerful way than the people who are completely relying on AI for all of their copying content.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: So is the bar higher or lower?
16:28
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure there's an easy answer to that.
16:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:32
SPEAKER_01: I was just curious because, like, because people are like, I can totally tell that's AI.
16:37
SPEAKER_01: So I'm just wondering if it's like harder to like, is it harder now to create content that stands out, or is it easier because things sound like AI.
16:47
SPEAKER_01: So like you don't actually have to do anything crazy, you just have to form an original thought, like, in order to do it.
16:53
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
16:54
SPEAKER_00: So I actually I don't think it's actually a necessarily a copy thing.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: And and to be clear, when I think of captions, I count that as content.
17:02
SPEAKER_00: So to me, while copy means words, um, when I talk about copywriting, it's words that are meant to enact an action specifically and typically a sale.
17:13
SPEAKER_00: So words on your website, words on a sales page, words in a sales sequence.
17:17
SPEAKER_00: I think captions are content writing.
17:21
SPEAKER_00: You would hire a content writer for that.
17:23
SPEAKER_00: So I do think they're like slightly different.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: But if you're using AI for all of it or even like a large chunk of any of it, I do think eventually people catch on, especially if you've been around for a while.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: Because if I read your caption today and I've been following you for three years, and I go back and I look at what your content used to be, I can tell.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, but what I will say is interesting, and I'd love your thoughts on this.
17:46
SPEAKER_00: A lot of the people who are in the they have accounts that their whole shtick is like teaching people how to pop off on Instagram, right?
17:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:55
SPEAKER_00: Instagram tip accounts, essentially.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: When I read those posts, I'm like, this is so clearly AI, but people eat it up.
18:04
SPEAKER_01: No, I I know exactly what you're talking about, and I don't understand.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: Like I I genuinely don't understand.
18:13
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'll be like, what?
18:16
SPEAKER_01: Like, how how are we getting comments on this?
18:19
SPEAKER_01: How are people actually engaging with this post?
18:21
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't understand, but I think I think it's because some individuals are not as aware.
18:28
SPEAKER_01: It's like, it's like, I think, especially like an older generation, like, you know how your parents will send you like a thing on Facebook and you're like, that's AI.
18:37
SPEAKER_01: AI.
18:38
SPEAKER_01: And they're like, what?
18:39
SPEAKER_01: And you're like, Yeah, like how did you even consider like what?
18:44
SPEAKER_01: But I just think because like we are so online and we see so much and we have like a more refined eye for what is AI and what's not, like, I think that's why people like you and I, and people listening to this podcast, don't get tricked by things like that.
19:02
SPEAKER_01: But then some people do because they're just not as like trained on it, I don't think.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: Right.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that makes sense.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: That's the only thing I can think, but yes, I know what you're talking about, and I want to jump off a bridge when I see that.
19:14
SPEAKER_00: Um going back to the copy and content thing, nothing irks me more than how do I say this?
19:24
SPEAKER_00: Your website or your sales page is doing so much more continual work than a caption on Instagram.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
19:33
SPEAKER_00: So when somebody uses clear AI for their entire website copy or their sales page, that's where I go, like, okay.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: So that's one of that should be one of the biggest, most important investments you put into your business.
19:47
SPEAKER_00: It is literally the equivalent of your digital storefront.
19:50
SPEAKER_00: Like if you owned a boutique or you owned a restaurant.
20:03
SPEAKER_00: Say, and when that is something you skimp on and you use AI, unless it's like literally a budget constraint, then you know what?
20:13
SPEAKER_00: Do your thing, please edit it.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: But when it's brands that you're like, you had a different option, and I know you did, that is that'll turn me off.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm not, I won't work with you.
20:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: Well, also, I don't know if you've ever had this like struggle with clients or anything like that, but like it's like so in the past, we've had clients like we do a big onboarding form at the beginning, and sometimes clients will use those AI and they'll use AI to fill it out.
20:42
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I I'm just like, this isn't gonna go how you think it is, because like you needed to answer those because that's what's gonna fuel the future of your which is exactly what I'm saying, like exactly what you're saying with the websites.
20:56
SPEAKER_01: It's like your website is a reference point not only for future clients, but also the growth of your business.
21:02
SPEAKER_01: When you do hire a VA, when you do hire a social media manager, when you do like start to build your team and your business, that's also a reference point for them.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: And so, like when you yeah, when that initial content it's like the source material.
21:18
SPEAKER_01: When the source material is AI, yeah, you're never going to break free from sounding like everyone else.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: Right.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: It's like you didn't even sound like yourself.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: So your content or your copy is not gonna sound like you.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
21:38
SPEAKER_01: We gotta, we can't be doing that.
21:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, but that actually kind of leads to one of the questions I had for you, which is what mistakes do service providers make that is giving away their authority and trust?
21:48
SPEAKER_01: And this could be about AI or just about how they're showing up in general.
21:54
SPEAKER_00: That's giving away their authority and trust.
21:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think going back to our initial conversation around AI.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: AI usage, like asking it to form your opinions or to form the strategies or to like not being confident in what you bring to the table initially.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: What I will say is similar is when you're using AI for something like let's go back to the use case of web copy, it is similar to hiring somebody like me, a professional website copywriter.
22:26
SPEAKER_00: If you come to me and you're like, I don't really know what I do or what I sound like.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: Like if you're not giving me input, the output I give you, you're gonna read it and be like, oh, this doesn't sound like me.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: This isn't good.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: This isn't, it's not going to be you.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: And so when you do that with AI, that's also outsourcing your authority.
22:48
SPEAKER_00: We see people do this with coaches and educators.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: They outsource their authority to somebody to tell them, well, what should I create?
22:55
SPEAKER_00: What offers should I get rid of?
22:56
SPEAKER_00: How should I do that?
22:57
SPEAKER_00: Do I think collaboration and having people in your corner you trust the opinions of is important a hundred percent?
23:05
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
23:06
SPEAKER_00: But when we are looking for someone or something to make core decisions for us, I just think that that's that's a slippery slope.
23:15
SPEAKER_01: And people are doing AI.
23:17
SPEAKER_01: I agree so much.
23:19
SPEAKER_01: And it's like people do it even outside of their business.
23:23
SPEAKER_01: Like, um, I I am a woo-wee person, and like I definitely have a chat little guy that I've created that has like my human design, my my astrology chart, like all of it in there, right?
23:34
SPEAKER_01: And like sometimes I'll be like, all right, so like what's the vibe?
23:37
SPEAKER_01: Like blah blah blah coming up.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: But like I ultimately you cannot outsource like your intuition is like the truth.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: Like, you can't outsource that, period.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: And like you, there's that's why you have humans in your life to support you.
23:53
SPEAKER_01: That's why you have friends, like your partner, your parents, whatever it is.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: Like, that's why you have a community, is to be able to like ask questions and get advice from real individuals, not a robot.
24:05
SPEAKER_01: Like, don't let a robot have that much power over your life.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: 100%.
24:11
SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
24:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, let's see.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: I'm curious where you think AI struggles when it comes to selling.
24:22
SPEAKER_01: Is it because it gets repetitive?
24:24
SPEAKER_01: Is it because it doesn't know the nuances?
24:26
SPEAKER_01: What is it?
24:27
SPEAKER_00: I think it's multiple things.
24:29
SPEAKER_00: So, first thing is sales isn't like one conversation, one post, one opportunity.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: Your funnel starts like so far before that with like how you've been showing up over the course of the last couple of weeks, months, years.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: Your literal offers, your reputation, your reviews, like AI can't know and hold that much information with the nuance that a human could.
24:55
SPEAKER_00: So when we go, hey, help me sell this thing, it doesn't know all these other details that will impact the effectiveness of, let's just say, your launch.
25:04
SPEAKER_00: Let's say you create a new offer and you're gonna live launch it and you're asking AI to help you with the strategy and everything, or like, what should I say in this post when I'm announcing it?
25:15
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't know how you've been showing up.
25:18
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't know what's worked in the past.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: And honestly, to go through the amount of time it would take to train it to know all of that, that is so much time and effort that probably would be better spent giving that to a professional who can look at it in its entirety and apply appropriate strategies to it.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: What I will say though is if you are going to use AI to do these things, use one that has been really well trained.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: So whether it's one you train yourself, it sounds like you guys have trained them for your clients, or it's buying a custom GPT, I have one called the Sales and Copy Bestie that is trained on something very specific.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: So Bestie is trained on eight years of my sales psych IP copywriting best practices, specifically for business owners in the online space.
26:08
SPEAKER_00: So if you're a service provider or a product seller or an educator, a coach who utilizes social media primarily for marketing and for generating customers, that is completely different.
26:22
SPEAKER_00: You're gonna apply strategies in a different way than your local Ace Hardware or than, you know, Olive Garden down the street, right?
26:28
SPEAKER_00: Or Walmart or even small boutiques.
26:31
SPEAKER_00: And so the bestie is trained on what works for our space and those types of things, like what's going on in the world today, et cetera, et cetera.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: So if you are going to use AI, if that is your best thing you can use, please use one that is well trained on those things or take the time to train it yourself.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: But if you're not an expert, I don't know how well you can really train it.
26:55
SPEAKER_00: Um don't just like go to Claude or ChatGPT and be like, help.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't literally know all of this nuance.
27:04
SPEAKER_00: It cannot actually help you well.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: And like a gap, too, is you probably see this so much, but like every client and every offer needs a little bit of a different recipe.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: Like some things don't need as much authority building as other things to sell, or like some things don't need this element quite as much.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: Like their buyers are really warm, or whatever it is.
27:29
SPEAKER_01: Like you have different audiences, different offers, and there's nuance to that.
27:34
SPEAKER_01: It it's not just like, oh, we need 20% clarity, 20% this.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: Like, that's not how it works.
27:40
SPEAKER_01: And I think AI doesn't know that, it doesn't know where your audience is at, um, and where what to put more of, what to put less of, what gives your audience the ick.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: Like it doesn't know that.
27:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, but on that note, it I one thing I feel like AI is really good at is like analyzing data.
28:01
SPEAKER_01: So if you are like kind of doing this on your own, or even if you just really want to know like what works and what doesn't, like collect your data, put it in a spreadsheet, give that to AI and let it tell you what works the best for you.
28:15
SPEAKER_01: This call to action gets the most clicks, this whatever.
28:18
SPEAKER_01: Like that is, I think, where AI can be super supportive for people.
28:22
SPEAKER_00: 100%.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: Again, though, you have to know what you're asking it.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: Like looking at data and being like, analyze this for what?
28:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, and double check because just like with writing, it can get it wrong.
28:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, I've run some fun like mathematical or engineering problems through it.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: And it gets it wrong.
28:45
SPEAKER_00: It's like, and you would think, like, how is it getting math wrong?
28:49
SPEAKER_00: Like it's math.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: It does get it wrong.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: So even like, yes, maybe it can do an initial analysis of analysis of data really well, you need to double check what it found.
29:00
SPEAKER_00: You need to confirm it.
29:01
SPEAKER_00: And I think that this is another really good point.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: Anything you're using AI for, it is your literal responsibility as a human, but especially as a business, to fact-check and double check it.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: The FTC is not out here being like, oh, if you put something out that's incorrect or counts as false advertising or breaks FTC regulations, you don't get to be like, well, AI did it.
29:26
SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: You can't even do that to your copywriter.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: The FTC goes, no, no, no, no, no.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: Your name is on it.
29:33
SPEAKER_00: So before you go just posting, especially when it comes to like stats or sharing data points around things, you need to double check it.
29:42
SPEAKER_00: You can't just be like, well, that's what chat said.
29:44
SPEAKER_00: Because what if it's wrong?
29:46
SPEAKER_00: And then how are you defending yourself in court?
29:48
SPEAKER_00: I asked Rob.
29:51
SPEAKER_01: Like, I can't be held accountable.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: It was, it was chat.
29:57
SPEAKER_01: No, honestly, that's it's so true.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: I think the biggest thing is just not, you just can't trust it as much as people want to trust it.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: Like, it's not to be, it's not to be trusted.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: On its own tool, it's a tool.
30:14
SPEAKER_00: This is like sometimes you go into Canva and you see these templates and you're like, respectfully, who the who made that template?
30:23
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, okay, but if you collaborate with it and you add your brand colors, your fonts, you change some things, maybe you all of a sudden that was a really good place to start.
30:34
SPEAKER_00: The designer of that template had a good idea, they had a good vision.
30:38
SPEAKER_00: You might not have liked the way they executed it.
30:40
SPEAKER_00: But when you came in and you sprinkled, sprinkled your thing onto it, all of a sudden it's usable.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: It's great.
30:45
SPEAKER_00: AI is that, like it is just a tool.
30:48
SPEAKER_00: And I think people are just utilizing it incorrectly.
30:53
SPEAKER_00: Um and they're viewing it as, and this speaks to a larger problem in the online space, they're viewing it as a fast track way to get things done, and they're fast tracking the wrong things.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like the Ozempic of business, and I have nothing on Ozempic, I have something with Ozempic, like pop off.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: But it's viewing it as like I can skip doing a lot of the work, and I can fast track it with AI, and I think it's gonna end up better, right?
31:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, and like it training AI, like training your own GBT through either your program or on your own or whatever it is, like if you've ever done that, you know that it like it takes time.
31:38
SPEAKER_01: It's it takes time.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: You don't you don't just like oh I answered the question now?
31:42
SPEAKER_01: It knows, like it's refinement, and like I can't even tell you how many times I've had to go back and be like, Claude, I told you I know nothing.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: Never say this again, like please.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: I told you 79 times, you know, like you just can't.
32:01
SPEAKER_01: I think it can make some things faster, but faster doesn't always mean better.
32:08
SPEAKER_01: And if you want things to be efficient and good, you have to put some time and effort and like work into getting it there.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't just happen.
32:19
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
32:20
SPEAKER_00: And I will also say, like, sticking with my like little zempy um analogy here, for some people, it is the best option.
32:28
SPEAKER_00: It literally is like, yeah, no, that makes sense.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: This is a perfect use case.
32:33
SPEAKER_00: It's so dependent on the business, the founder, the person, the season, the use case.
32:40
SPEAKER_00: Like there is no black and white application.
32:43
SPEAKER_00: But if you're running a business and you have the funds to do things well, to slow down and do them right and to invest in experts.
32:53
SPEAKER_00: I guess my question would be like, why would we not do that?
32:56
SPEAKER_00: Why I understand, and this is, I think, more of an American problem than I have a lot of clients in other countries, and we talk about this.
33:04
SPEAKER_00: This desire to literally just get as rich as possible by putting the least amount of work in as possible has kind of become the quote unquote American dream in the online business space, which is fascinating to me.
33:15
SPEAKER_00: And I don't really relate to it.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: Um no, it's the that's literally like it's messed up.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's yeah, you're taking the heart, you're taking the heart out of it, you're taking the purpose out of it.
33:29
SPEAKER_00: It's just becoming, and and I think where people forget is like you're these people are getting exorbitantly wealthy because of money from real people, like real humans, and especially in the B2C or B2B market that I'm in, like I'm a copywriter for other business owners, this is B2B.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: I am being paid by other people who are trying to create a livelihood for themselves and take care of themselves and their families.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: To skip putting the work in and not do my absolute best for them and to still be comfortable taking their money and getting rich is something I just do not and will never relate to.
34:07
SPEAKER_00: And that's my worry with AI is that people are viewing it as just this fast track to skip a lot of things and to just get as rich as possible with doing the least amount of work as possible.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: I don't like it.
34:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and like what what what's so wrong with just like paying somebody to do something?
34:24
SPEAKER_01: Like, it's always been a value in my business to like pay people and pay people well.
34:29
SPEAKER_01: Like my employees, like it's my dream to pay them extremely well with great benefits.
34:35
SPEAKER_01: Like that's always a priority in my business is like trickling it down.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: Like I just don't understand how people I they'll just cut costs wherever they can, and I don't think it's helpful.
34:48
SPEAKER_01: But also, like I don't think that success is maintainable long term, and you've already seen it.
34:53
SPEAKER_01: Like the coaching bubble was like whoop poof, like it crashed.
34:57
SPEAKER_01: And like the people who the people who I just see people struggling still that are like they got rich in 2020 or 2021, and like they can't figure it out now, like they can't get anyone in their programs, they can't figure it out, and it's because they've outsourced everything to like honestly AI, like and it just doesn't that's never gonna be a sustainable way to grow a business, I don't think.
35:22
SPEAKER_00: I think you're touching on a really good point here, and there's so many avenues we could go down, but the other thing that the other detriment that this causes is now people you've lost you've lost people's trust.
35:34
SPEAKER_00: And so we see people come on the scene, create this online course, and we can, you know, make a ton of money and become this, like be put up on this pedestal.
35:44
SPEAKER_00: And then it comes out that it was like not as good as people thought.
35:48
SPEAKER_00: People feel it's a waste of money, it was AI slop.
35:51
SPEAKER_00: The person burns out, quote unquote, leaves the industry and comes back to try to make money again because just to teach people how to not burn out.
36:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just to be clear, making money, like if you completely change your lifestyle off of one good year, maybe you had your first seven-figure year and all of a sudden you're like mansion Lamborghini.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: Like, babe, you you have to continue to make that amount of money.
36:15
SPEAKER_00: And so if you did this one incredible launch, lost all the trust of your consumers, and you come back to try to launch something else, people aren't gonna buy into it.
36:23
SPEAKER_00: And all of a sudden you can't afford your lifestyle.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: And now, not only is your business in the dirt, you're you're foreclosing on your home, you're losing your car.
36:31
SPEAKER_00: Like, these are real things that happen to people.
36:33
SPEAKER_00: And I feel bad because you kind of have to hold empathy and also a little bit of, well, we have to take accountability for the decisions we've made.
36:42
SPEAKER_00: But the online space, again, has created this narrative that like this is normal, this is the dream, this is what people should be doing.
36:50
SPEAKER_00: So a lot of these people who find themselves in this place were unfortunately following the advice of the space in general, or maybe a couple of coaches, mentors who told them that this is what they should be doing.
37:03
SPEAKER_00: And then, yeah, now this is where they find themselves.
37:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or I forbid AI tells you to do it.
37:09
SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh god.
37:12
SPEAKER_01: I I this is like a touch wooey, but like I think people lost touch, they disconnected from like their own self and their own values.
37:24
SPEAKER_01: Like, do you really need or want that much money, or are you just doing that because the pro coaching program you're in told you to?
37:31
SPEAKER_01: And I also think people like were outsourcing their power to coaches when like if they would sit down and be quiet for a second and and think about their true desires and how they want to show up and serve people, they may have even had a way better idea.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: And and you they just needed to have the self-trust to go after it instead of yeah, like like outsourcing it to coaching.
37:59
SPEAKER_01: And here's the thing, I will say, I work a lot of our clients are coaches, and they are people who I would not only recommend with my whole life, but like absolutely have integrity, and all of their businesses operate from helping their clients build businesses that work for their lives.
38:19
SPEAKER_01: They're not just like, here's what I did, do this.
38:22
SPEAKER_01: And that is something I can respect.
38:24
SPEAKER_01: But I think early in co when coaching first started getting big, it was just like, do what I did.
38:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna show you what I did.
38:31
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna show you what I did.
38:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, correct.
38:33
SPEAKER_00: It was the person at the top trickled down to theirs and then trickled, and so everyone's just regurgitating the same information and selling it for slightly less expensive than the person above them.
38:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know if like this is something that's wrong with me because it seems like some people are okay with this, but like I would not sleep at night if I felt like I was using someone, like what I learned from someone else.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how to explain this, but it's like I've even struggled with like I'll read a book on marketing and feel like there's no, like, I'm like, but that's not my like that's their information, not my information.
39:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I learned it and now I'm like synthesizing and using it, but I don't feel like I could teach that because I'm not the one who came up with it.
39:16
SPEAKER_01: Like I don't know.
39:18
SPEAKER_01: I have like such a hard time with that.
39:22
SPEAKER_01: No, that makes sense.
39:24
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know what is right or wrong.
39:26
SPEAKER_01: Like, I think I think how you become an authority and an educator is by your own unique set of experiences, knowledge, your own, you know, five books you've read and 10 webinars you went to that somebody else didn't go to, and you're synthesizing that and coming up with your own thing.
39:43
SPEAKER_01: I think that's how you do it.
39:44
SPEAKER_01: But I don't know, I just think people are comfortable like taking somebody else's thing and then saying it's theirs or whatever.
39:51
SPEAKER_00: I think, okay, yes, that is icky.
39:54
SPEAKER_00: But what I will say is even outside of the online business space, like when you go to dental school and then you become a dentist and you open your own practice, you're likely not bringing anything original and new to the table.
40:06
SPEAKER_00: Like cavities are what cavities always were, and like dental cleaning standards are the standards, and you're asking people to pay you.
40:15
SPEAKER_00: It's what you're adding to it.
40:17
SPEAKER_00: So, of course, if you go read a book on marketing and then all of a sudden you're like, yeah, like let's just even go back to um what's his name?
40:27
SPEAKER_00: Robert Cialdini.
40:28
SPEAKER_00: I never know how to pronounce his last name.
40:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, like his seven principles of persuasion.
40:32
SPEAKER_00: If I read that book and then I'm like, you know what?
40:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm actually gonna launch a mini course on the seven principles of persuasion.
40:38
SPEAKER_00: That's gross.
40:39
SPEAKER_00: Why are we doing that?
40:40
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe I'm gonna like slightly rename them and I'm gonna call it my approach.
40:44
SPEAKER_00: That's gross.
40:45
SPEAKER_00: But like, for example, I went to school for journalism and psychology, have continued to attend college-level narrow marketing courses, and have been doing this for eight years at three different levels and three different like business sizes and industries.
41:03
SPEAKER_00: And so I am continuing also to read these books and add to my lack of a better term, arsenal toolbox understanding.
41:12
SPEAKER_00: And I do create things that help people understand these, but it's I teach them in a way that's applicable to your specification.
41:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
41:24
SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
41:24
SPEAKER_00: But it's not original, it's not like I am in the lab scanning people's brains or doing being like, I know what works when it comes to this.
41:32
SPEAKER_00: No, nothing I teach necessarily came directly from my own research.
41:39
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I I do share my observations, but I'm sure some other copywriter in the world has had the same observation.
41:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like it goes back to that kind of thing people say where they're those, they're like, well, there's no original ideas.
41:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, which which absolutely like I think some so many of us have like a shared consciousness, like I think the whole world does, you know.
42:01
SPEAKER_01: Right.
42:02
SPEAKER_01: Um and and so I I love that.
42:04
SPEAKER_01: And and I think you're what you do is genius.
42:08
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't have anyone on the podcast that I don't believe in.
42:13
SPEAKER_01: Two more questions for you before we wrap up.
42:16
SPEAKER_01: The first one is if you could give someone one piece of advice for their sales page right now, what would it be?
42:23
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love sales pages.
42:25
SPEAKER_00: I love that I'm building yours.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: Um, okay.
42:29
SPEAKER_00: I would say consider the user experience first.
42:39
SPEAKER_00: So I think, like anything else, we've kind of created this idea of like what's standard and what's necessary.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: And for a long time, sales pages had the same what I would call blocks.
42:51
SPEAKER_00: Like every sales page had like an imagine if, uh before and after, uh, like and it's not that those are wrong.
42:59
SPEAKER_00: It's just that that might not be what your audience needs, or that might not be aligned with what your audience has come to expect and love from you.
43:05
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe it's just not what's gonna work for this offer.
43:09
SPEAKER_00: So before just sitting down to write a sales page, I would first consider how you want your people to experience it.
43:16
SPEAKER_00: Are there different things you want them to click to get to navigate to different parts?
43:20
SPEAKER_00: Like, do you need a sticky nav bar?
43:22
SPEAKER_00: Do you need to, do you know that your audience primarily buys on mobile?
43:27
SPEAKER_00: So it needs to be way more optimized for mobile, which might mean bullet points are way shorter, paragraphs are way shorter.
43:34
SPEAKER_00: Because if you open your phone, a a regular or a normal sized paragraph on a desktop is not overwhelming because you can see top to bottom what came before, what came after.
43:45
SPEAKER_00: But on your phone, if a paragraph takes up the whole screen, for some people, especially if you know your audience, like I said, primarily is buying from their phone, that's gonna look like a lot of copy.
43:55
SPEAKER_00: And the brain goes, too big of a cognitive load.
43:57
SPEAKER_00: No, thank you.
43:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna skip it.
43:59
unknown: So
44:00
SPEAKER_00: Think about how your people are going to engage with and how you want them to engage with it before just going, well, what does a sales page need to say and in what order?
44:10
SPEAKER_00: Because there actually is no black and white answer to that.
44:14
SPEAKER_00: I don't apply.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: Like, do I have a sales page template?
44:17
SPEAKER_00: 100%.
44:17
SPEAKER_00: And again, is it better for a lot of people than just like going, what should I say on this?
44:22
SPEAKER_00: 100% people love it.
44:24
SPEAKER_00: Would I use that template for all of my client work?
44:28
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely not.
44:29
SPEAKER_00: Because everybody's offer, audience, voice, everything is different.
44:35
SPEAKER_00: So first consider how you want people to experience it.
44:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that so much.
44:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, okay.
44:42
SPEAKER_01: And then the last question I have for you is what is one piece of advice you wish you could give yourself from last year?
44:51
SPEAKER_01: Because you've been through it, girl.
44:54
SPEAKER_01: This time last year you were a different person.
44:56
SPEAKER_01: And I'm just curious what you'd tell her.
45:00
SPEAKER_00: So, oh my gosh.
45:01
SPEAKER_00: Woof.
45:02
SPEAKER_00: Last year was like tragically hard for me, I feel personally.
45:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, what would I tell her?
45:11
SPEAKER_00: Okay, actually, this exact time last year is when my life was imploding.
45:16
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I would tell her, trust that you've laid the foundation for your business to survive and thrive through this, and like you need to take care of yourself.
45:26
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think there's this idea, and maybe not everyone struggles with this.
45:30
SPEAKER_00: I struggle with this.
45:32
SPEAKER_00: I create, I'm very intentional around my quote unquote safety nets, especially when it comes to like finances or marketing.
45:41
SPEAKER_00: I have created a world in which I could, you know, not work for multiple years and pay my salary.
45:47
SPEAKER_00: However, even though I have that, it is like impossible for me to rely on it.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: To me, it's like that doesn't count.
45:54
SPEAKER_00: It's not real, it doesn't exist.
45:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I feel like I need to show up, I need to show up, I need to show up.
46:00
SPEAKER_00: I have a really hard time because I feel very connected to my audience and my people.
46:04
SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of people have been with me as clients, as customers, and just a community in the online space for literal years.
46:11
SPEAKER_00: So I'm one of those weirdos who's like, no, those are my people.
46:15
SPEAKER_00: And I feel like I like owe it to them to continue to show up and create things and add to that.
46:22
SPEAKER_00: I love distracting myself with work.
46:24
SPEAKER_00: Like if I'm having a really hard personal time, I'm like, what can I create?
46:28
SPEAKER_00: Like, what can I build on this?
46:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I wish I could go back and just tell her, like, hey, babe, it's actually gonna be okay if you maybe like don't get on your phone and computer for a second.
46:38
SPEAKER_00: Like maybe you don't need to.
46:41
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I created the bestie last year, and I'm so glad I did because it's the my favorite thing I've ever created.
46:47
SPEAKER_00: But it took, I mean, I didn't, I wasn't processing anything.
46:50
SPEAKER_00: I was just like, I'll just build things.
46:53
SPEAKER_01: I'll work.
46:54
SPEAKER_01: I'll perfect lovely.
46:57
SPEAKER_00: So I would probably tell her that like trust that you, you know, you have the foundations, you're gonna be fine.
47:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that so much.
47:05
SPEAKER_01: It's I think there's so many people that probably feel the same way as you do.
47:10
SPEAKER_01: Like, I know myself included, like when I quit my full-time job to do this full-time, I had more than enough of a safety net, like, and as and a whole support system.
47:22
SPEAKER_01: Like, I was gonna be fine, but just still like the it's so scary.
47:27
SPEAKER_01: And like it can feel like you can feel that like almost hamster wheel feeling of like, but no, like I have to keep going, I have to keep going.
47:35
SPEAKER_01: That same feeling of like, well, that's not actually real, that's only in case of emergency.
47:39
SPEAKER_01: Babe, like this is an emergency.
47:42
SPEAKER_00: Like, this is this is the emergency of my life.
47:46
SPEAKER_00: My favorite thing that happened is last year.
47:48
SPEAKER_00: So I'm an older sister, I'm one of seven.
47:51
SPEAKER_00: And me too.
47:53
SPEAKER_00: You have six siblings?
47:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm the youngest.
47:55
SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, wait, we're opposite.
47:57
SPEAKER_00: Stop.
47:58
SPEAKER_00: I love a little sister.
47:59
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
48:01
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, I'll never forget.
48:02
SPEAKER_00: So when you have this many siblings, it does feel like somebody is going through something at all times.
48:08
SPEAKER_00: Like somebody is having a life crisis.
48:10
SPEAKER_00: And it was like end of February last year, so about a year ago.
48:15
SPEAKER_00: And I'm on the phone with my little sister, one of my little sisters, and I said to her, I was like, it is so nice, because as the big sister, I'm very much mom, right?
48:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:23
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, it is so nice for the first time in as many years as I can remember that no one is having a crisis right now.
48:31
SPEAKER_00: Do you know how relieving that is as a big sister?
48:33
SPEAKER_00: And she looks at me on FaceTime and she goes, Kaylee.
48:36
SPEAKER_00: And I said, What?
48:37
SPEAKER_00: She goes, You're the one having the crisis.
48:40
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, What?
48:42
SPEAKER_00: And she was like, You, it's you.
48:45
SPEAKER_00: Like, you're having it.
48:46
SPEAKER_00: What do you mean?
48:47
SPEAKER_00: And I realized how much I struggle to like see myself as a person.
48:52
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm like, oh my god, like I am.
48:54
SPEAKER_00: Wait.
48:56
unknown: Yeah.
48:56
SPEAKER_01: You're like, no, I'm a machine.
48:58
SPEAKER_01: What do you mean?
48:59
SPEAKER_01: I don't have feelings.
49:00
SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you mean?
49:01
SPEAKER_00: Don't worry about me.
49:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, don't worry about me.
49:03
SPEAKER_00: If you guys are good, then we're all good.
49:05
SPEAKER_00: And my sister's like, every almost like I think like 50% of my siblings at one point flew out and stayed with me.
49:12
SPEAKER_00: Like everyone rallied around, and it was funny as the big sister to have like your little siblings, like, my little sister came and like organized my closet.
49:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I moved.
49:21
SPEAKER_00: She's like, organized in my closet.
49:23
SPEAKER_00: My little brother came and like set up lights in the backyard, so like different like garden lights so that I felt like safe at night and had like a cute ambiance.
49:31
SPEAKER_00: Like everyone showed up, and I was like, Oh my gosh, wow, yeah.
49:35
SPEAKER_00: I guess it is okay to be on the opposite side to be receiving the help.
49:39
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, it's hard, but you deserve it.
49:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm so happy for you now.
49:46
SPEAKER_01: Like it's been so fun.
49:48
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the last year when everything was happening, I remember you posted something like, I know people know, I'm not ready to talk about it.
49:56
SPEAKER_01: But it's like, I just think people do know, like people know when things are happening, especially when you have a community that's engaged and like you're always online, like they know, you know?
50:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
50:05
SPEAKER_01: But I've I loved to see how you handled that and how you were like vulnerable to the degree that you wanted to be.
50:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, but you didn't feel like at least to me, it didn't seem like you felt like you had to share anything.
50:18
SPEAKER_01: It was just like you felt comfortable, and at some point you wanted to share.
50:22
SPEAKER_01: Like, here's what's going on, um, and receive support from your community too.
50:27
SPEAKER_01: And then to see you now is just incredible.
50:29
SPEAKER_01: And also, you guys, Kaylee is an incredible poet.
50:34
SPEAKER_01: So just remember that too.
50:36
SPEAKER_01: And we did some, we did some reels for her of her poetry, and they're very good, so you should go listen to them.
50:42
SPEAKER_00: You're such an angel.
50:44
SPEAKER_01: Uh well, thank you so much for being on the podcast today.
50:47
SPEAKER_01: And we'll link all of our things for Kaylee so you guys can get whatever you need from her.
50:53
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
50:54
SPEAKER_00: I'm excited to continue with your copy.
50:57
unknown: Yay!
50:58
SPEAKER_00: Okay, bye.
51:00
SPEAKER_00: See ya.