Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Strictly Come Hamster - Series Nine (featuring Pete Lambert & J.R. Southall

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Strictly Come Hamster - Series Nine (featuring Pete Lambert & J.R. Southall · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:34
  Welcome back to Strictly Cum Hamster.
• 0:37
  My name is Joe Ford and at the risk of insulting anybody on the
• 0:42
  panel today I'm going to hand over a immediately to my Co
• 0:46
  host, Mr. Rod Brown. Hello, Rod.
• 0:49
  Good evening, Joe. How are you?
• 0:51
  Yeah, well, I've been watching Series 9 for the last two weeks,
• 0:53
  so I'm pretty depressed if I'm honest.
• 0:55
  Oh dear, has it been? Has it been a bit of a chore?
• 0:58
  A slog. I'll be pleased when it's over.
• 1:01
  Not the episode we're recording tonight.
• 1:04
  I can think about something else.
• 1:06
  Well, I'm probably going to have to quote Missy several times
• 1:08
  tonight then and say shush now Mum is talking because I think
• 1:12
  this is probably going to be one of our most divisive episodes
• 1:16
  yet. No, I think it might be.
• 1:18
  I think it might be. So I'm hoping that everyone has
• 1:21
  drunk their blend of testosterone and adrenaline,
• 1:24
  it's been extracted from the finest Viking warriors and
• 1:27
  you're all ready for battle. We are, as Joe rightly said, we
• 1:31
  are covering Series 9, the middle Capaldi season, and just
• 1:34
  to be clear for everyone how what the rules are on this
• 1:37
  episode, we are treating the Dalek story, the Fisher King
• 1:41
  story and the Zygons as one story.
• 1:44
  Everything else is a separate story, so the final three are
• 1:48
  all individuals. Agree with that.
• 1:50
  Please send your post on to Rod. Yeah, Frazer may agree.
• 1:54
  If you want to complain that may it's me you send it to.
• 1:57
  So let's get cracking and help us sort out who will hang well
• 2:01
  at Tyburn and just who's well hung.
• 2:03
  We're joined by two very special guests.
• 2:09
  They're going to help us decide which story's going to lift the
• 2:11
  Lucursion Glitter ball and which is going to be imprisoned for
• 2:14
  four and a half billion years and made to watch Heaven Sent on
• 2:18
  repeat. So let's welcome today's guests.
• 2:22
  Jr. Would you like to introduce
• 2:23
  yourself? I'm Jr.
• 2:25
  Southall. I'm one of the hosts of the
• 2:27
  Strangers in Space podcast. I used to write for Starburst
• 2:29
  magazine and I hang well at Tyburn.
• 2:35
  That must mean that Pete is well hung, Pete.
• 2:37
  I last. Like a?
• 2:40
  Christmas Tree I am so happy to be here talking about Season 9.
• 2:44
  The warmth and chemistry between the Doctor and companion are a
• 2:47
  delight. We've got the original Daleks.
• 2:49
  We get to Peloton. We get to meet the Sea Devils.
• 2:51
  I don't. Season 9.
• 2:53
  No, no, Series 9, Not season nine.
• 2:56
  Sorry, date. Hilarious mistake.
• 3:00
  This is why I have not been on for a while.
• 3:03
  Yes, hello, I'm Pete, a hamsterer from the dawn of time,
• 3:06
  and Joe has summoned me. I've been receiving death
• 3:11
  threats for the last couple of weeks as he's been watching
• 3:13
  through this season, you know, But I kind of know where he
• 3:15
  falls on a lot of this. That is worrying me slightly,
• 3:20
  right? So before we get into the
• 3:21
  stories themselves, you've probably already had a little
• 3:23
  bit of a flavour, but we're going to go around the panel and
• 3:26
  just ask each guest to come up with three words to sum up their
• 3:30
  feelings about Series 9. 3 words 3 words.
• 3:34
  I wrote a whole statement. 3 words.
• 3:38
  Oh, change. A huge analogy.
• 3:40
  Worked out three. Words.
• 3:41
  I'm sure you let's. Have the analogy.
• 3:43
  Let's have the analogy. Let's have the analogy go for
• 3:45
  HAR. OK, OK, the analogy is thus, and
• 3:50
  this is going to be a completely metaphorical analogy.
• 3:54
  This is not going to relate to anything until I get at least
• 3:57
  halfway through. But imagine if you had a been 12
• 4:02
  in 1963 and this amazing band came out of nowhere called The
• 4:07
  Beatles and they released an album that was filled with all
• 4:10
  these really simple but really amazing songs with these classic
• 4:15
  hooks. But the songwriting was so
• 4:18
  simple and so straightforward. Q4 albums later time of Help
• 4:24
  Revolver, and suddenly things are starting to get slightly
• 4:28
  different. And then immediately after that,
• 4:30
  you've got Yellow Submarine. You've got Sergeant Peppers and
• 4:34
  this band that used to do these really simple, really
• 4:37
  straightforward pop songs. And now doing something that is
• 4:40
  so utterly different to what they did just four years
• 4:44
  previously. That anybody who lived in the
• 4:47
  days of sort of social media and that when they were expecting
• 4:52
  things to be what they want them to be, or else they're going to
• 4:55
  complain like bloody hell that things aren't the way they used
• 4:59
  to be is going to be going absolutely crazy.
• 5:02
  But the thing with sort of 50 or 60 years of hindsight is we can
• 5:07
  look back and we can look at. I don't know.
• 5:11
  Back in the USSR and think, yes, that is entirely the same band
• 5:15
  as wrote, please please me. But if you actually stack
• 5:20
  Revolver right next to the White Album on your CD player and put
• 5:24
  them both in, there's no way you wouldn't get like, Lock Jaw or
• 5:30
  something from the sort of Swift change between one style of
• 5:33
  music and the other. My point being, obviously Doctor
• 5:38
  Who is many different programs. It's many different things.
• 5:43
  Whenever somebody else takes over, there is always going to
• 5:46
  be a change in style, a change in tone, a change in emphasis,
• 5:51
  and a change in subject. The things that they write songs
• 5:54
  about back in the 1960s changes between please, please, please,
• 5:59
  please, please me and back in the USSR.
• 6:01
  The things that Stephen Moffatt writes about are different from
• 6:04
  the things that Chris Chipnall writes about, and they're
• 6:06
  different from the things that Russell T Davis writes about.
• 6:10
  I just think that if you just relax and allow Doctor Who to be
• 6:16
  all sorts of different things, then you probably probably stand
• 6:21
  a good chance of enjoying the whole lot.
• 6:23
  Because the baseline for Doctor Who is is just an entertaining
• 6:26
  adventure series. And I don't honestly think
• 6:29
  there's a single story from the entire 60 year history that
• 6:33
  doesn't live up to that premise. There's two or three that I
• 6:36
  don't like, but you know, apart from two or three, there's not a
• 6:39
  single one I couldn't put on for fun.
• 6:41
  And so basically what I'm saying about why I'm bringing this up
• 6:45
  for Series 9 is I think Series 9 is probably roughly equivalent
• 6:50
  to Abbey Road. So Abbey Road the album, I don't
• 6:54
  know if you know, it's got a couple of really classy singles
• 6:56
  on really famous singles, but actually Abbey Road is The
• 7:00
  Beatles sort of deepest, darkest journey into sort of all sorts
• 7:05
  of who knows what's going on. The entire, the entire
• 7:08
  second-half of the album basically plays as one track by
• 7:12
  this George Harrison. If I'm remembering the track
• 7:15
  listed right, there's a George Harrison song.
• 7:17
  And then the entire rest of it is this Paul McCartney suite of
• 7:20
  about 8 or 12 songs that just all players, one track and all,
• 7:24
  blend into each other. Anybody listening to please
• 7:26
  please me and then stick in the second side of Abbey Road on.
• 7:29
  He's just going to get whiplash. Point being, I think Series 9 is
• 7:35
  where Doctor Who does what Abbey Road did.
• 7:37
  It's like jazz. If you get it, it clicks into
• 7:41
  place. If you don't get it, it just
• 7:43
  seems like, say me probably. But also at the same time it's
• 7:48
  got some weird shit in there that you really don't want.
• 7:51
  But the fact is, so you're either on board with it or
• 7:54
  you're not. But I think ultimately what it
• 7:56
  comes down to again is if you just relax and just let it play,
• 8:00
  there's no reason why Doctor Who shouldn't look at different
• 8:05
  topics. And Series 9 for me is when
• 8:08
  Steven Moffat says, right, let's, let's make the companion
• 8:13
  and avatar for the fan. And in doing so, you get to talk
• 8:17
  about the companion as somebody who enjoys being a part of the
• 8:22
  adventure, somebody who wants a particular role in the
• 8:26
  adventure. But ultimately, ultimately
• 8:30
  what's underpinning all this is somebody who just wants to be a
• 8:33
  better person. So Clara is somebody who wants
• 8:36
  to be the Doctor because the Doctor's a better person and
• 8:39
  that's what she wants to be. And ultimately, I just really
• 8:42
  love it when Doctor Who does things that surprise me.
• 8:44
  So when you get a series made of two parters after a series made
• 8:48
  of 1 parters, when you get something that ends the way this
• 8:51
  series does, I'm just delighted that it surprised me really.
• 8:54
  Because you know Doctor Who's been going for so long, it
• 8:57
  doesn't surprise you as much as it should do.
• 8:59
  I promised we were going to make this a short episode, didn't I?
• 9:03
  So. Clara is an avatar of the Doctor
• 9:05
  Who fan. So the three no.
• 9:07
  Wonder she's so bloody annoying. Well, the three.
• 9:11
  The three would not like Abbey Road.
• 9:14
  No, I think the three words were yaboo sucks.
• 9:18
  Yeah, like Abbey Road When he said to give it 3 words I was
• 9:21
  going to say like Abbey Road and then make him make me give the
• 9:25
  analogy. I think his three words were
• 9:28
  fucking chill out, weren't they? Yeah, that's.
• 9:30
  Basically, yeah. Pete, your 3 words or very
• 9:35
  extended analogy? Well, no, you see, you've set me
• 9:37
  up. You've set my brain off now
• 9:38
  because, like, so I'm translating that previous
• 9:40
  analogy into Tori Amos albums and like, oh, OK, it's boys for
• 9:44
  play. But that's not what my say.
• 9:50
  Coming from a slightly different angle, my words are tiring,
• 9:56
  dreary and unimaginative. And I'm saying that with my eyes
• 10:01
  closed because I don't want to see anybody's jaws hitting the
• 10:04
  floor. I hate.
• 10:06
  To do this because I'm not going from Pete to Joe, but come on,
• 10:09
  we've got to do it. Joe, what are your three?
• 10:11
  Words I'm not going to do. I'm not going to do 3 words, but
• 10:15
  I'll do three sentences of my beat.
• 10:17
  Is that all right? Only one Who?
• 10:18
  Played by the rules? Yeah, you and me, Pete.
• 10:22
  Ideally, you should have struck me in the middle of a Pete and
• 10:24
  Joe sandwich. Really.
• 10:27
  That sounds enticing. Oh, really does.
• 10:30
  We'll talk after the apps. That would cry if.
• 10:33
  They will today, I'll tell you. OK, so I'll just choose science
• 10:38
  fiction for boring pricks and intellectuals.
• 10:42
  There's no life or sparkle to any of this.
• 10:45
  And tired, half hearted, sonambialistic television that
• 10:49
  isn't sure what to do with an arc, a companion, or a central
• 10:53
  protagonist. There we go.
• 10:54
  So what? Were those 3 words fucking chill
• 10:56
  out? Joe.
• 10:59
  When we're done with it, all right, I will.
• 11:02
  Well, my 3 words are cohesive, bold and rewarding.
• 11:08
  So yeah, as I said at the top of this show, I think we've got
• 11:12
  slightly different. Views on this series.
• 11:14
  It's a mix of. Flavours.
• 11:15
  It makes a better listening experience.
• 11:18
  Sorry. Which?
• 11:18
  Segues us beautifully into the first batch of comments from our
• 11:23
  glorious listeners. We've just picked 6 to open this
• 11:27
  section because they kind of show the diversity of views, and
• 11:31
  because we're awkward bastards, we decided that Jr., you're
• 11:34
  going to read the ones that slightly more negative, and
• 11:38
  Pete, you're going to read the ones that love it.
• 11:41
  So. Please Jr. kick us off with the
• 11:44
  first batch of comments. Well, Mark Harrison says the
• 11:50
  series that's most aimed at fans, which explains why some
• 11:53
  fans, the ones obsessed with an imaginary casual viewer who can
• 11:56
  raise or lower their thumb and make Michael Gray take the show
• 12:00
  away again, roundly reject everything but haven't sent you
• 12:03
  know the irony there, as they haven't sent, was the one that
• 12:06
  the casual is like the least. Oh, sleep no more actually tops
• 12:11
  that, but. Oh yeah.
• 12:13
  But they're basically neck and neck, aren't they?
• 12:15
  Yeah. Somebody called Nathan.
• 12:17
  Nathan Bottomley. Welcome to podcasting, Nathan
• 12:20
  says. It's fucking great.
• 12:21
  I only disliked by people who dislike well written Doctor Who
• 12:24
  and the color Gray. Can I just interject for a
• 12:27
  second because I had a wonderful quote from Matt Michael about
• 12:30
  this season which sort of ties into to Nathan's there.
• 12:34
  He can see when. You say when you say interject.
• 12:36
  Is that like a euphemism for something you?
• 12:38
  Might. It usually is with Joe.
• 12:40
  Yeah, yeah, pretty much. I'll be filling in with a lot
• 12:43
  because another one Michael says is is actually TV for stupid
• 12:47
  people that like to think that they're smart people.
• 12:50
  Just an opposing, just an opposing view from Nathan's
• 12:52
  there. Should we crack on with Sy Hart?
• 12:56
  Simon Hart says my all time least favorite series.
• 13:00
  Miserable introspective, dreary stories so you can do 3 words as
• 13:05
  well. Dreary.
• 13:08
  Yeah. That's one of mine.
• 13:10
  Yeah, yeah. With so little of the lightness
• 13:12
  they desperately need, if the Doctor and Companion aren't
• 13:15
  actively likable, what's the point of the show?
• 13:20
  Mr. Mark Donaldson of This parish says the perfect example
• 13:23
  of why fans are never bloody happy.
• 13:25
  For. Ages.
• 13:26
  They wanted Doctor Who to be darker and more grown up to
• 13:29
  compete with prestige TV. Moffett delivers that while
• 13:32
  staying true to the ethos of the show.
• 13:34
  And they're up in arms. David Lancaster says at the time
• 13:39
  I was teaching in primary schools, 1 pupil asked me what
• 13:42
  my favorite TV show was. I replied Doctor Who and the
• 13:45
  whole class booed. No.
• 13:49
  This is from primary school children.
• 13:51
  This is weird. Compare this with the absolute
• 13:54
  delight, joy and enthusiasm the 2005 revival was met with by the
• 13:58
  children I taught at the time. At that time, things had really
• 14:02
  shifted in the public's perception of our silly old
• 14:05
  show. And Melvin Pena says one of my
• 14:10
  all time favourite seasons. 2 parters allowed Capaldi and
• 14:14
  Coleman to pair up with dynamic new partners and explore
• 14:18
  different aspects of their characters as their volatile
• 14:21
  relationship entered it's end game.
• 14:23
  Missy and Clara mind the dangers of a human travelling with a
• 14:26
  capricious time traveller, A shielder and the Doctor showed
• 14:29
  the cost of the Doctors interfering in human lives.
• 14:33
  It's all delightful and fun. I want to watch that season.
• 14:38
  You have, though, Pete. You've been watching Serious 9.
• 14:41
  You know what I learned from those comments?
• 14:43
  There is what Jr. said from Psy about if the doctor and
• 14:46
  companion aren't likeable, what's the point?
• 14:48
  And what Pete said from Melvin that, you know, the toxic
• 14:52
  relationship really reaches its end game is actually people's.
• 14:57
  A lot of people's sort of dependence on this season is how
• 14:59
  they can handle that relationship, which is so the
• 15:02
  the pivotal thing in this season, isn't it?
• 15:05
  Some people are insistent that the Doctor and the Companions
• 15:09
  are nice people. But then I think if you're doing
• 15:13
  a drama, a television drama, it's kind of incumbent upon you
• 15:17
  to sort of drill into people's fallibilities a bit.
• 15:20
  And I think, and I think maybe people just don't like seeing a
• 15:24
  Doctor and a companion that have problems.
• 15:27
  And this is and This is why Series 8 and Series 92 of my
• 15:31
  favourites, because it's about a doctor and a companion who have
• 15:33
  problems and I think that's just way more interesting.
• 15:37
  It's why Series 2 is one of mine, because Rose Tyler is such
• 15:39
  a cow, but it makes it so much more interesting to watch.
• 15:43
  And why series 10, which I think has probably better episodes, is
• 15:46
  less interesting? Because Bill's so nice, and
• 15:48
  that's all right, but it's not that interesting.
• 15:52
  Right. We get into the stories
• 15:53
  themselves. So Jr. would you like to kick us
• 15:57
  off? Pick the first story you would
• 15:59
  like to champion or condemn, and give us the three reasons why
• 16:02
  you're keeping it or chucking it out.
• 16:04
  You're so lucky you got the whole season.
• 16:07
  Yeah, no, I didn't want to go first.
• 16:08
  I wanted to go second or third. Remember Jr.
• 16:10
  Tactical, Remember? I am going to pick.
• 16:14
  I'm going to pick The Woman Who Lived because this never gets
• 16:19
  any love. And yeah, I'm going to pick it
• 16:22
  to champion it because actually, I think this is a pretty good
• 16:25
  story. I don't think it's the best of
• 16:27
  the season, but I think this is really undervalued, I think.
• 16:31
  And so I think one of us, or in one of the quotes it said about
• 16:36
  being sort of not having boldness, not having
• 16:40
  imagination. I think the story that he tells
• 16:43
  with The Shielder is probably one of the most imaginative
• 16:47
  things. One of the boldest things has
• 16:48
  been in Doctor Who and this is the point at which that story
• 16:53
  kicks off when you realise that there's something going on.
• 16:57
  And I know people don't like, oh and I've not got the actresses
• 17:00
  name in front of me and I'm terrible.
• 17:02
  At Maisie Williams. Maisie Williams I am so bad on
• 17:05
  podcast for there's something about when that red light goes
• 17:09
  that turns me into a mushy pee. Maisie Williams, People thought
• 17:14
  that she wasn't very good, but re watching these stories across
• 17:17
  the last four night, I actually think she's a lot better than
• 17:19
  people give her credit for that basically.
• 17:22
  I think this is really interesting episode in that in
• 17:26
  this season, which is a story about Clara, basically they take
• 17:31
  the time to do an episode in which Clara doesn't really
• 17:35
  appear, but it's an episode that is all about Clara.
• 17:39
  The whole point of a shielder is that she's a mirror image of
• 17:43
  Clara that the Doctor looks into.
• 17:46
  And so the Doctor gets to spend this episode with a Clara
• 17:49
  substitute and understand how that toxic relationship could
• 17:54
  have become a genuinely toxic relationship, rather than one
• 17:57
  where the toxicity is actually something that's not negative
• 18:01
  but probably overall positive. In fact, there's even a quote.
• 18:07
  And there's so Ashilda says at one point.
• 18:09
  So what's wrong with Clara then, The Doctor?
• 18:11
  There's nothing wrong with her. Ashilda, why haven't you made
• 18:15
  her immortal, Doctor? Well, look how you turned out.
• 18:19
  And if that's not foreshadowing, but where this series goes by
• 18:22
  the end of it. And then later on, the Doctor
• 18:24
  says people like us, we go on too long.
• 18:26
  We forget what matters. The last thing we need is each
• 18:30
  other. We need the Mayflies.
• 18:32
  In other words, this is an episode that, in a microcosm is
• 18:36
  the story of the season itself. And also I like Roof of Sound.
• 18:40
  I think he's great. I love it when he turns up.
• 18:42
  I think he's a really charismatic presence and I enjoy
• 18:44
  him. And the lion creature I think
• 18:47
  is, I mean, it's a bit neither here nor there, but as lion
• 18:50
  creatures go, I think it's fine. I think it's fun.
• 18:53
  I think it's a dark episode that investigates some really dark
• 18:56
  things, but does so in a fairly light way with a lot of humor
• 19:01
  and it never stops moving. So unlike saying certain other
• 19:06
  periods of the show or with just certain other stories, even in
• 19:09
  this season where they'll stop to talk about things, in this
• 19:13
  story there's always something going on.
• 19:15
  There's a heist, there's a break in, there's, you know, hangings,
• 19:19
  there's all sorts of stuff. This episode never stops moving.
• 19:22
  They're always talking as they're walking through,
• 19:24
  breaking in, doing something. So it gets into some really
• 19:28
  heavy areas, but it does it in a really light way.
• 19:30
  And I just think actually it's some really underrated episode
• 19:34
  of Doctor Who. So I'm picking the woman who
• 19:36
  lived to Champion. What a great one to kick off
• 19:39
  with. I didn't see that coming.
• 19:41
  Shall we go to the comments? I've got a feeling they may
• 19:45
  differ. I think they might as well
• 19:48
  Darren Lit, Randall says. Some touching stuff in this.
• 19:51
  I love the look, but the story is rather weak.
• 19:53
  As a fan of Murray Gold, there's a really annoying music cue for
• 19:57
  the Manor house robbery, but it's a shoulder.
• 19:59
  A shoulder theme is good, but I can't abide the character or
• 20:03
  performance. Dan Pin What a load of crap.
• 20:06
  I get that Maisie Williams was a casting coup, but me is such an
• 20:10
  unlikable character. Although ruthless, Hound is
• 20:13
  good. John Arnold says perhaps doesn't
• 20:15
  quite mix its ingredients, as it should, but there's a lovely
• 20:18
  melancholic undercurrent about immortality.
• 20:21
  Daniel Knight Dulles Dishwater. I just don't care about a
• 20:25
  shielder. And the plot twist is so obvious
• 20:27
  even Joey Essex could work it out.
• 20:29
  Oh, Daniel, the knob gags in Doctor Who, dear.
• 20:33
  No, thank you, Moffett. Been it?
• 20:36
  But Daniel, I use that same knob gag in my opening intro.
• 20:39
  So. Maybe I'm the target
• 20:41
  demographic. Who knows?
• 20:44
  James H says. Awful script.
• 20:46
  Awful Acting Rufus Hound is just too over the top.
• 20:49
  Awful all round. Me rediscovering her humanity is
• 20:53
  just trite, same as it always has been.
• 20:56
  Such as in Victory of the Daleks and Bracewell oh look, a rerun
• 21:00
  of the GELF plot from Unquiet Dead.
• 21:03
  Where James is, he's very on the fence about how he feels.
• 21:05
  You should tell us how he's feeling.
• 21:08
  Jason Thompson delves into some problems of immortality and
• 21:11
  again has a lighter, less consequential tone overall.
• 21:14
  People who don't like the Doctor playing the Happiness Patrol at
• 21:17
  their own game presumably don't like the literal gallows humor
• 21:21
  in this either. Michael Storm says really,
• 21:24
  really fucking boring. The core of the episode How does
• 21:28
  me cope with being immortal? Should be a fascinating
• 21:31
  character piece, but it isn't. And Maisie Williams cancel the
• 21:35
  ancient person and a young body. But Rufus Hound is surprisingly
• 21:39
  good fun and has good rapport with Capaldi.
• 21:41
  Why the fuck didn't they keep him on as a companion?
• 21:44
  David Gillespie Pratt The story of the Doctor bestowing
• 21:47
  immortality on somebody to save their life and then them living
• 21:50
  for hundreds of years, becoming more and more in well, again,
• 21:53
  these long sentences. Giving these out, well, becoming
• 21:56
  more and more embittered was a great idea, but a shielder is
• 22:00
  horribly flaccid character that wastes so much potential.
• 22:04
  I think that's the first use of the word flaccid on this
• 22:06
  podcast, which is unusual, and the first.
• 22:09
  Use of the word flaccid on this podcast on this.
• 22:11
  Podcast that's true on all the other.
• 22:14
  As it pops up somewhere, and finally, indeed, and finally for
• 22:21
  this batch, Dave Rennie has summarized this story.
• 22:24
  This should have been the Radio Times Write up, Dave Rennie
• 22:27
  says. Let's just walk about talk.
• 22:29
  And then a lion turns up. So that's our listeners comments
• 22:34
  page. That's basically what I said.
• 22:35
  Isn't it? People are saying that like it's
• 22:39
  a bad thing. I think you said a few more
• 22:40
  positive things in there. Jr.
• 22:42
  Eight Would you like to agree with J Rs summary as he won you
• 22:45
  over? Not quite.
• 22:49
  But although it's lovely and everybody.
• 22:51
  Everyone loves different things. For different reasons I would
• 22:55
  positive thing it's got Rufus hand in it.
• 22:56
  Negative thing. He's not playing the Meddling
• 22:58
  Monk. Which is?
• 22:59
  So good as on Big Finish. I've only had a couple of them
• 23:01
  but he was he's done. I'd love to have him doing that
• 23:04
  because he's charismatic and you want to find out what he's up
• 23:08
  to, even if he's bad. But unlike shoulder stroke, me
• 23:13
  who I just How could someone live forever and be so boring
• 23:17
  and not do anything. And this is this is peak Moffett
• 23:23
  script tell don't show. She just tells us about all this
• 23:26
  stuff that's happened to her but we don't see it.
• 23:28
  We don't get to know it's not earned because we don't get to
• 23:30
  know her. She's just things are just
• 23:32
  announced. I'm glad somebody mentioned I'm
• 23:35
  not Marie Gold's biggest fan, to put it by a Long story short,
• 23:39
  but even someone there who was saying they were a big Marie
• 23:41
  Gold fans found the creeping about music really annoying in
• 23:44
  this and I did too. I have no interest in these
• 23:47
  people. I just.
• 23:48
  Why? Why did they and making her beg
• 23:52
  him to set her free just so he can be all in burdened and you
• 23:57
  know, it wouldn't be good. I I hate him at that moment and
• 24:01
  normally when the doctor does something arrogant or smug,
• 24:05
  there's another character knocks them off their perch Or it
• 24:08
  seemed to be the a weakness of the doctors that he can be too
• 24:11
  pretentious and all that sort of thing.
• 24:12
  But in this, it's like, Oh yeah, you know, he's saying but you.
• 24:15
  Did it you? Why?
• 24:16
  Why aren't all those Viking fake Viking robot things from the
• 24:20
  previous story immortal 2? I can't remember why everyone
• 24:23
  who's got one of these patches isn't immortal as well.
• 24:27
  Yeah, the Mayfly stuff, just so arrogant, like those little
• 24:31
  people. It's like they don't really.
• 24:33
  It was. It was in It's the war.
• 24:35
  Doctor Who says, you know Muffet has him say it's the privilege
• 24:38
  of lesser men to light superior men's farts or whatever it was.
• 24:42
  And I hate that so much as a thing to put in Doctor Who don't
• 24:47
  who isn't about how some people are superior and sorry I've got
• 24:51
  off Jack Harkness will get around to you eventually.
• 24:56
  That's that's the line. That's aged like milk.
• 24:59
  The. Point is this but sort of season
• 25:02
  though, Pete, the fact that lesser people are just as
• 25:05
  important as the. It sort of says it.
• 25:09
  But I don't think it. I don't think it.
• 25:11
  Makes sense by the time you get to the end if this is a chapter
• 25:14
  in a story you see. But doesn't it take?
• 25:16
  Doesn't it season? Take a lesser person and make
• 25:18
  them an immortal. That's.
• 25:20
  The Yeah. She has to end up being in God,
• 25:21
  yeah. I.
• 25:23
  Would try to think what's going to become of her in the future
• 25:26
  now. Now she's going on forever.
• 25:30
  So lesbian hijinks with me. You get free lesbian when you
• 25:33
  leave, no. Talk about that place.
• 25:37
  So yeah, no, sorry, not a fan of this one.
• 25:40
  I kind of got that pain. Thank you for that very subtle,
• 25:43
  nuanced document. I'm very.
• 25:44
  Glad you've never been the baddie before, I said to Joe.
• 25:47
  Like, I only do podcast, I lover.
• 25:49
  I only do episodes that I love. And he was Oh yeah, you've never
• 25:52
  done anything. There's a six year period of
• 25:54
  Doctor Who that you've never done on Hampton.
• 25:55
  Why is that please? I'm so glad.
• 25:57
  Anyway, you've got a purple background because your face has
• 26:00
  gone the same colour during that run.
• 26:03
  Although I will say he's not entirely anti Moffitt because we
• 26:06
  did The Empty Child and the Doctor Dances on Hamster and
• 26:09
  that was very positive. So yeah.
• 26:12
  So shall I go next, Joe, so that we keep the audience on 10
• 26:15
  talks, which way this is going to go?
• 26:17
  This could be the one that I swung around.
• 26:19
  It could be, it could be, but I'm putting this through.
• 26:22
  I'm on J Rs side on this one. Well, of course, of course.
• 26:28
  I like this episode for a number of reasons, the first one of
• 26:30
  which is I like the journey for a shoulder.
• 26:33
  I like to see the contrast between what the Doctor thinks
• 26:36
  has been bestowed on me and how she sees it.
• 26:39
  He thinks, and he says, you've got a whole wonderful planet to
• 26:42
  play on. But she just feels trapped and
• 26:45
  imprisoned and isolated. And it's clear, as she talks
• 26:48
  through her history over the 800 years, that she did start with
• 26:52
  good intentions. So she helped people in a leper
• 26:54
  colony. She saved a village from scarlet
• 26:56
  fever. But she's becoming hardened over
• 26:58
  time by grief and loss. And that's most apparent in that
• 27:01
  scene, which I think is really quite moving, where she sat on
• 27:05
  the floor in front of the three empty cots to grieve the three
• 27:09
  children that she's lost. And as a result of that she's
• 27:11
  picked the name Me because she says she feels singular,
• 27:15
  unattached and alone. And I think it's a really lovely
• 27:17
  poetic line in there where the doctor says I didn't realise
• 27:20
  that your heart had rusted because I kept it beating.
• 27:23
  So I think it's some lovely, yeah.
• 27:25
  She don't sell it, though. She doesn't sell those moments,
• 27:28
  you. See, I find that she does.
• 27:29
  See an actress desperately trying to sell those moments.
• 27:32
  I just don't see a character within the story that is
• 27:36
  agonised by the loss of these children.
• 27:40
  I do, But then bear in mind she'd lost the children hundreds
• 27:42
  of years ago. She's looking back on her.
• 27:44
  She's not crying with immediate grief.
• 27:46
  She's looking back on the history of her life.
• 27:48
  That was a pivotal moment in her life.
• 27:50
  She's moved on since then, but she still feels that pain.
• 27:54
  But she's not. Yeah, she's not emoting all over
• 27:56
  the place. She's not weeping buckets, but I
• 27:58
  think that would have felt slightly odd.
• 28:00
  I I'd like her. I like the way she delivers her.
• 28:03
  I I think she gives, we've got the feeling that she's, she
• 28:06
  tells us in the previous episode.
• 28:07
  She's awkward, she's uncomfortable around people.
• 28:09
  She's socially inept. She told us that in the previous
• 28:12
  episode. So that kind of distance works
• 28:14
  for me. And the whole point of the story
• 28:17
  is that she's bored. He left her there.
• 28:19
  She'd be bored. I can empathize with her.
• 28:25
  So she's just announcing. Yeah, yeah.
• 28:27
  Sorry. She's announcing.
• 28:28
  No, no, no, no. But And then I think at the end,
• 28:30
  because you've seen kind of what makes a tick, you understand
• 28:34
  that she did help people initially.
• 28:36
  So therefore when she turns and she's redeemed in air quotes at
• 28:40
  the end, I kind of think that's earned because she's given us
• 28:43
  that history. So I like the fact that she
• 28:46
  comes back, she refines her humanity.
• 28:48
  And to me that kind of mirrors the Doctor's journey in Series 8
• 28:51
  where he's gone from timing. You know am IA good man.
• 28:54
  And then you realize the end. I'm just a madman with a box and
• 28:57
  kind of a Shielder's journey here matches that.
• 28:59
  She's been dark, but now she's come through and she's yeah,
• 29:03
  she's going to embrace her humanity.
• 29:05
  So that works for me. I like a shielder's journey.
• 29:07
  My second reason was Maisie Williams and Roof of sound.
• 29:09
  I think they're both give good turns.
• 29:12
  I think we've just discussed Maisie Williams.
• 29:14
  For me she works clearly for Joe less so.
• 29:18
  We've already all talked about roof sound.
• 29:19
  I think he gives a really good larger than life role and that
• 29:22
  contrasts really well with the darker Maisie Williams.
• 29:26
  And then my third reason is I think it looks absolutely
• 29:29
  beautiful. It's beautifully directed as Ed
• 29:32
  Basil jet frames some of the shots and they're glorious.
• 29:35
  So the opening shot with the moon coming through the trees
• 29:38
  and the carriage coming along at night, I think it looks
• 29:40
  beautiful. The Manor houses at night look
• 29:43
  glorious. When the doctor and me walk
• 29:45
  through the woods just before they're tapped by Sam Swift, the
• 29:48
  cameras down really low and frames and it looks like a
• 29:51
  picture postcard. So I think it looks quite
• 29:53
  beautiful. And if I can sneak a fourth one
• 29:56
  in there, I'm going to give it Bonus points for giving Eric
• 29:58
  Saywood a boner, because after all these books, when he
• 30:02
  mentions pterileptals and raga mines, the pterileptals have
• 30:06
  finally been name checked in modern Doctor Who, and Eric
• 30:09
  Saywood is a very, very happy man.
• 30:11
  Did he get 5 lbs? I hope.
• 30:14
  Not hope. Not.
• 30:17
  He probably badges the BBC for it.
• 30:20
  So that's my defence of it, Joe. It's one apiece.
• 30:24
  Of course it is going in the bin, this one.
• 30:26
  I'm so sorry gentlemen. And you had an extra thing
• 30:30
  there, which is good because I've got -2.
• 30:33
  I have no argument at all for this episode.
• 30:36
  I watched it when it first went out.
• 30:38
  No, no, I'm not finished. I watched it when it first went
• 30:40
  out and I didn't remember a thing about it.
• 30:43
  I watched it last week and I can barely remember a thing about
• 30:47
  it. It is a complete non entity of
• 30:50
  an episode that isn't really worth building an argument
• 30:54
  around. So I'm just going to say this,
• 30:57
  been it. I'm going home.
• 31:01
  Yeah, hang on A. 2nd That's not what I meant, is it?
• 31:07
  So The Woman Who Lived is the first to fall.
• 31:10
  Could this be the pattern for the way this podcast heads Pete
• 31:14
  over to you? Pick your story, which I'm sure
• 31:17
  you want to champion, Or in the unlikely circumstance you want
• 31:20
  to condemn it, give us your three reasons.
• 31:23
  OK, well, actually I'm going to, I'm going to jump forward and
• 31:25
  I'm going to do, uh, I'm going to do something positive because
• 31:29
  believe it or not, there's one episode that I, you know, of.
• 31:32
  This season has its weaknesses but I think there's one episode
• 31:34
  that everyone then must agree is brilliant and that is Sleep no
• 31:38
  more. It's different.
• 31:40
  Surely this is an uncontroversial choice.
• 31:43
  It's different. The Doctor and Clara are
• 31:46
  outsiders not know alls they don't know what's happening
• 31:50
  really. It's actually scary.
• 31:52
  The monsters are actually threatening the the 1st, that
• 31:57
  first sand monster chase is just really dynamic, very well shot.
• 32:02
  Side side note, Chopra is the first hot character this year
• 32:05
  and I would say the only hot character this year.
• 32:08
  No, no, no, Pete. There's a couple in the, you
• 32:10
  know, under the lake on the base.
• 32:13
  One fella's got his chest now. It's lovely.
• 32:18
  I love it plays games with you. I love the Peep Show because
• 32:23
  conceit at 1st and then it's got you thinking.
• 32:26
  It tricks you into thinking that they've got head cameras on and
• 32:28
  then they haven't. And that's really important.
• 32:30
  And and that you noticed that just before the Doctor does,
• 32:34
  which is I think really good writing and really good
• 32:36
  directing. That's exactly when you're
• 32:37
  supposed to notice something. It's brilliant when something
• 32:40
  occurs to you just before everyone in the story realizes
• 32:42
  it. It's a nice balance, I think, to
• 32:45
  the whole back. You may remember a story, a
• 32:47
  controversial story not that long before this one, about a
• 32:51
  creature that was about to hatch out of a giant egg orbiting the
• 32:54
  earth, and they just had to take a random guess.
• 32:56
  Maybe it'll eat everyone, maybe it won't.
• 32:59
  Well, let's just let it hatch them because we're good and and
• 33:01
  it turned out OK. Yes, going to eat everything.
• 33:08
  Then around the. Parent would have ate everything
• 33:10
  on the earth already. They could have just.
• 33:12
  Tossed it. Amazing how that creature laid
• 33:14
  an egg the same size. Hang on.
• 33:17
  Sorry, Series 9 series. Nine Wind it back.
• 33:21
  They could have just. Tossed a coin in the pre credit
• 33:24
  sequence and saved us all 45 minutes.
• 33:28
  But in this now these monsters they want to eat you.
• 33:31
  You are you are their food and and it's I love some of the
• 33:36
  lines they're just just concise and not trying to be
• 33:39
  pretendious. It's adaptable it's clever and
• 33:41
  it's coming for us. Neptune is beautiful the effects
• 33:44
  are beautiful the deaths are horrendous and but not like you
• 33:49
  know not too much for for kids but really scary.
• 33:54
  The clone guy who sacrifices himself for Chopra gets to have
• 34:00
  a premonition of Vilma's death in Orphan 55.
• 34:04
  Oh please, you just lost me. Please, let's.
• 34:07
  Not go say my Chopra. See, I'm playing the big
• 34:12
  cartoon. This is going to win everyone
• 34:13
  over, it says in my notes. And but it's an and it's
• 34:18
  ultimately it's an unreliable narrator and things like that
• 34:21
  usually don't work and I usually don't like stories like that.
• 34:25
  And the fact that this one doesn't annoy me in the way that
• 34:29
  they usually do and that you realize at the end that it's
• 34:31
  he's telling you that it's just his memory of the Doctor.
• 34:34
  And that's what. And I think what's re watching
• 34:36
  it I can see Capaldi's performance is very noticeably
• 34:40
  and cleverly different. He is.
• 34:42
  He's performing the Doctor as someone might remember and
• 34:45
  that's why he keeps saying like we're all doomed and things like
• 34:47
  that much more intently than he may be he normally does.
• 34:51
  So yeah, you know I've come over to your side guys.
• 34:54
  I love this one too. Wow. 2.
• 34:58
  As well as. I'm.
• 34:59
  Just taking it for granted. I'm taking it for granted.
• 35:01
  That you love it, surely? Who saw that coming?
• 35:04
  Wow. OK, so should we go to the
• 35:06
  reader's comments? Let's see if they are as equally
• 35:09
  glowing. Can I start?
• 35:11
  Please. Please do.
• 35:12
  Melvin Melvin Pennier says. I love it.
• 35:16
  The unreliable narration is fun because the found footage format
• 35:19
  usually implies an objective reality.
• 35:22
  Here, though, the editing clues you in that Shears mischaracter
• 35:25
  is up to nefarious deeds. Michael Storm Says Sleep a Lot
• 35:29
  More would be a more appropriate title.
• 35:31
  I don't like the found footage genre in general, and the
• 35:34
  footage here is very uninteresting.
• 35:36
  The idea behind the plot isn't bad, but the eye boogie monsters
• 35:39
  are laughable. However, I like that the threat
• 35:42
  isn't eliminated at the end, and I'm very surprised they got away
• 35:45
  with Rasmussen's demise Eye. Boogie.
• 35:49
  Yeah. Does he mean eye boogers?
• 35:51
  I think. Seem like having a jiggle, Paul
• 35:54
  says. The haters are wrong.
• 35:57
  Hey, so many on your side here. There's much to enjoy.
• 36:00
  Good story, something different from the rest of the season.
• 36:03
  Interesting interplay of a number of genres and a brilliant
• 36:06
  closing shot. Joe, you know we've often not
• 36:08
  picked the obvious winner on this program.
• 36:11
  Yeah, Can you see Sleep No more? The three of us have got Yeah,
• 36:14
  that's true. It's early days.
• 36:18
  I'm getting carried away, John Ben Salia said.
• 36:21
  It should earn props for trying out something different.
• 36:24
  Crikey. Even John's on side.
• 36:26
  And Rasmussen. This is the man who hates the
• 36:28
  new series OK Are. You reading out the wrong
• 36:31
  comments. Possibly.
• 36:34
  I really don't. Don't tell Joe.
• 36:36
  I wrote all the nice ones myself and John continues to say, and
• 36:40
  Rasmussen's disintegrating head is a welcome bit of horror.
• 36:42
  But the found footage concept doesn't work.
• 36:45
  The crew are rubbish and the story ends abruptly with no
• 36:47
  satisfactory conclusion. Here's James H with his usual
• 36:51
  sanity. Gatis should write no more.
• 36:54
  After this utter drivel, the Sand Men are less convincing
• 36:57
  than the plasma tons, or actually they look quite
• 37:00
  similar. And the acting is even worse.
• 37:02
  Pure crap, which doesn't even require suspension of disbelief.
• 37:06
  It requires you to shatter it and take a flamethrower to to it
• 37:09
  to pieces. Darren Lit, Randall says.
• 37:12
  Really hated on 1st Watchers. I've no love for the found
• 37:15
  footage kind of thing, but I think time has been quite kind
• 37:18
  and the rewatch the other year proved fairly enjoyable.
• 37:21
  I still wish it'd been told normally.
• 37:23
  Though one of my many husbands, John Arnold, says Gatiss's most
• 37:27
  adventurous script channelling his inner Moffett Sleeps Down
• 37:31
  monsters is a daft idea. You need to counterbalance the
• 37:33
  found footage horror. Maybe that horror for kids
• 37:36
  approach suffers from being in a gloomy, inward looking season.
• 37:40
  Yeah, maybe. Jason Thompson says a worthy
• 37:42
  experiment with a new style, but failed to really connect for me.
• 37:46
  Crash Dummy. Fine, but dull.
• 37:48
  Which makes it better than most of the rest of this series.
• 37:51
  Complex, complexicated, cookie said.
• 37:54
  Nice concept, but it really doesn't work and the cast
• 37:57
  deserves more. And finally, Paul Smye.
• 38:00
  One of the worst stories in the whole of Doctor Who.
• 38:02
  Oh harsh. I literally had no idea what was
• 38:05
  going on. So Jr.
• 38:08
  As Pete, glowing recommendation, apart from slipping in a
• 38:12
  reference to Orphan 55, for which you will never be.
• 38:16
  I'm remembering now that never works.
• 38:19
  No bad bad choice. Are you one over, Jr.
• 38:24
  Well, in the works of In the Words of Mark Bolan, I Love the
• 38:30
  boogie. I love the boogie.
• 38:33
  We love the boogie. Oh, yes.
• 38:38
  I got to be honest, so this is probably a function of me having
• 38:43
  the lowest expectations for this.
• 38:45
  But I probably enjoyed this more than any of the others watching
• 38:48
  them this week just because I was going in expecting it to be
• 38:53
  the most tedious of the 12 episodes.
• 38:56
  And actually I enjoyed it a lot more than I expected to.
• 38:59
  I'm not going to say it's the best thing ever.
• 39:02
  Three things about it, very briefly.
• 39:03
  One is Mark Gatiss outside his comfort zone, which is writing
• 39:07
  stories that are set in the past.
• 39:08
  Here he's writing something that's set in the future.
• 39:10
  It's the only time he does that on television.
• 39:13
  Doctor Who, and I think he does a good job.
• 39:15
  Two, I spoke earlier about liking to be surprised, and this
• 39:20
  was sold as found footage. And actually that is part of the
• 39:26
  story, isn't it? That's the kind of meta textual
• 39:29
  bit where the BBC tells you it's going to be one thing and you
• 39:33
  watch it, expecting it to be that thing and it turns out
• 39:36
  halfway through, Oh my God, it's not that thing.
• 39:38
  I like those kinds of surprises. So I was very happy with that.
• 39:42
  And actually, because of the way that it's not found footage, but
• 39:46
  it's found footage, it actually looks and feels very different
• 39:49
  from any other Doctor Who. And I'm all about the underdog,
• 39:52
  and I'm all about things being different and I'm all about
• 39:54
  experimentation. So yeah, I've put this through.
• 39:57
  Fabulous Joe. Hello.
• 40:00
  Hello, Hello. Your views, please on sleeping
• 40:04
  by Mr. Mark Caters. Please don't make me do this
• 40:06
  after all this positivity, because I'm going to join them.
• 40:12
  This is the one I turned around on this season and I bloody
• 40:16
  loved it. I absolutely loved it, playing
• 40:20
  with structure and form and language.
• 40:24
  It's Mark Gates who normally does nostalgia fest and he's
• 40:27
  experimenting for once, which is great.
• 40:29
  I absolutely love the whole angle of five minute bursts of
• 40:34
  sleep causing the whole thing because let's basic go, that's
• 40:36
  the way we're going, right? Yeah.
• 40:38
  Eventually we're going to market everything and sleep will be one
• 40:41
  of those things. I like the fact that the whole
• 40:43
  thing is a trick, that none of this is real all the way through
• 40:46
  and it's. And I love love.
• 40:48
  It's a killer of a last scene isn't it, with a final image
• 40:52
  that you never forget with him sort of melting away fabulous.
• 40:56
  It's got some bloody colour in it as well.
• 40:58
  It's a dark story but I'm sorry this is a this is the season of
• 41:02
  brown and blue filters, right? And we'll talk about this as we
• 41:06
  go through the other stories. It's a I'm actually, it's an
• 41:09
  eyesore. It's a bore.
• 41:11
  Saw this season where it's actually sleeping, the more
• 41:13
  looks quite visually interesting.
• 41:17
  I like the iboga monsters, I think they're silly visually
• 41:20
  quirky idea and oh, and I just want to put it through for one
• 41:24
  line alone. The wittiest line of the whole
• 41:27
  season. Where Capaldi goes, I get to do
• 41:29
  the naming. It's like the Silurians all over
• 41:32
  again. I.
• 41:33
  Love that line. This really surprised me.
• 41:35
  I went in with 0 expectations to enjoy this and I walked away.
• 41:40
  It might be my favorite of the year, so colour me impressed.
• 41:45
  Bloody hell, I think I need some smelling salts before we move on
• 41:48
  from there. It's definitely going through,
• 41:50
  but I just want this to. Remember this when it comes to a
• 41:55
  story that I love. OK.
• 41:59
  OK. I think a story you love that.
• 42:02
  Some other people love that as well.
• 42:03
  Don't worry. Look at that I.
• 42:05
  Wonder. If that I wonder.
• 42:06
  If Sleeping More started out as a draft for an inside #9 episode
• 42:10
  doing a science fiction episode, Oh no, because Gattis doesn't
• 42:12
  write for that, does it? Sorry, that does completely.
• 42:15
  No, it could be him looking at them and thinking but.
• 42:17
  It's got that vibe, yeah. If If Inside #9 did do an
• 42:20
  episode. You're making my points.
• 42:22
  You've. Had your in that sort of series
• 42:25
  of experimental 2 parters. Weirdly enough, it's the one
• 42:28
  part that's the most experimental of all.
• 42:30
  Joe. Joe.
• 42:31
  Not Joe. Joe.
• 42:32
  Rod, we've been going for an hour.
• 42:35
  We've got two stories nearly done.
• 42:37
  We've got 7 stories still to do. If you come up with any more
• 42:42
  than one point, I am seriously off a quick toilet break, OK?
• 42:47
  Bloody hell, I've been to. Hang on.
• 42:48
  Is this our podcast show? Go on, get up with it.
• 42:52
  That's what happens when you. Get I mean, right.
• 42:56
  I'm the same as you guys. I came to it again with low
• 42:58
  expectations and loved it. So it's definitely going
• 43:01
  through. Well, we might as well just
• 43:03
  announce it as the winner now. We're not going to agree on
• 43:07
  anything else, don't we? I can't believe all four of us
• 43:10
  have agreed on one story in this season.
• 43:12
  Sleep no more. I'm asleep no more.
• 43:15
  So you guys have touched a lot while I was going to talk about
• 43:17
  the experimental format, the fact it's not found footage.
• 43:21
  Yeah, I love the ideas. And this next series, we're
• 43:23
  going to get the capitalization of oxygen.
• 43:25
  This year we've got the capitalization of sleep, all of
• 43:28
  the Morpheus machines, the Mr. Sandman motif.
• 43:31
  I think that's really clever. I like the Resco rescue team.
• 43:34
  We've got an Indo Japanese team feels very, very different to
• 43:38
  what we usually get. And we've got a totally non
• 43:41
  white rescue team which is positive.
• 43:44
  We've got the Grunted that Pete talks about before again feeds
• 43:47
  into that kind of bleak dystopian future.
• 43:49
  And and Pete, I agree with you, I've got written down this feels
• 43:52
  more reishes Smith than Mark Gatiss authorial voice, because
• 43:56
  it does feel like kind of very bleak vision.
• 43:58
  I like the central mystery. It's constantly throwing
• 44:01
  mysteries all the way way through, so we've touched on
• 44:03
  some of them, but there's one earlier on where we see
• 44:05
  Rasmussen allegedly get killed, but we know he's already alive
• 44:08
  because he opened the story incinerator.
• 44:10
  So how's he still alive? And it does that all the way
• 44:14
  through the story. It's teasing you with little
• 44:16
  things throughout that you stop and think, oh, hang on, that
• 44:18
  doesn't quite make sense. So you're constantly being
• 44:21
  teased. You're constantly being made to
• 44:23
  thought, think and the final one, if I'm rushing through it,
• 44:27
  Joe, you love that line about us, Lawrence, which I've got
• 44:29
  written down as well. But I also love the line about
• 44:31
  putting space in front of everything.
• 44:33
  And of course we got space Pirates get bonus point for
• 44:40
  dropping in. When I say run, run, that had to
• 44:42
  go in there somewhere, didn't it?
• 44:44
  So I am putting this through. I'll just put in one more point,
• 44:47
  because I actually think one of the best scenes of the entire
• 44:49
  season is in this. And that's when that fella has
• 44:52
  to sing Mr. Sandman and those monsters are in the room with
• 44:55
  him. And the mixture of like the the,
• 44:58
  it's almost comedy and it's almost horror and it's a really
• 45:02
  hard line to pull. And I was very discomfited
• 45:04
  watching that scene going. Yeah, I could have done with a
• 45:06
  bit more of this, this season actually.
• 45:08
  So yeah, good stuff. Crikey, Joe.
• 45:12
  A Story. I would also like to champion a
• 45:15
  story from season 9. What is going on?
• 45:19
  Maybe I've lied. I love them all.
• 45:21
  I would like to champion the girl who died.
• 45:24
  Please. Primarily for Capaldi and
• 45:27
  Coleman Coleman, who I think are at their absolute best in this
• 45:30
  story. I think it's a brilliant Doctor
• 45:33
  and Clara, the scene where he can hear the baby crying and
• 45:37
  then the baby stops crying and she goes, you've decided to
• 45:39
  stay. Why?
• 45:41
  Because the baby stopped crying. That is one of the best scenes
• 45:43
  in the whole. It's one of their best scenes
• 45:44
  ever together. But I feel like Jane, is it
• 45:47
  Jamie Matheson isn't, He writes this one.
• 45:49
  He just has a great understanding of this
• 45:52
  relationship and it isn't the toxicity at all.
• 45:55
  It's two very competent people with big hearts working
• 46:00
  together, and that's the Doctor and Clara I like.
• 46:02
  We don't get enough of it that year, so I really like that.
• 46:05
  I like the fact that this is the one story of the season that
• 46:08
  decides to have fun. So it is basically a big
• 46:11
  pantomime with what should have been Brian blessed up in the sky
• 46:16
  declaring that he's God just after the Doctors declared that
• 46:19
  he's God. And you know all the sequences
• 46:22
  of the Doctor trying to convince these villagers to go to war?
• 46:26
  They're also fucking inept. It's like something out of Monty
• 46:29
  Python, but it's very funny. The sequence where they're
• 46:32
  attacking and they've got the big puppet and the oh, it's so
• 46:37
  funny. It's just really, really, really
• 46:39
  enjoyable to watch. And my last thing is it is just
• 46:42
  visually sumptuous this episode. There's a gorgeous shot where
• 46:46
  you first come in, swooping over the village.
• 46:49
  I'm sure you can all see it because it's the one interesting
• 46:51
  shot of the season. It looks great.
• 46:55
  So yeah, just for a brilliant doctor and companion, the fact
• 46:58
  that he decides to have some laughs and the fact that it is
• 47:00
  visually interesting, I absolutely would keep the girl
• 47:04
  who died. Oh, bonus point, Maisie
• 47:07
  Williams, who is very good in this episode, she's only very
• 47:11
  good in this episode because she's playing a young child
• 47:14
  who's out of her depth. And Kel Supre's Maisie Williams
• 47:17
  can actually play that. An immortal from the dawn of
• 47:20
  time, she cannot. But a young child that gets
• 47:23
  things wrong, she can and she's brilliant in this.
• 47:25
  So yeah, I think this this is probably the best episode.
• 47:29
  That's all my favorite episode of the season, just because I
• 47:32
  can have some fun with it. Fabulous.
• 47:34
  Let's go to the comments, Tom Newson says.
• 47:36
  The one ray of sunshine we get all series.
• 47:40
  Sorry, I'm not ready. Hang on.
• 47:42
  Daniel Knight, My least favorite Oh dear Jamie Radisson story.
• 47:45
  It's OK. But has laboured comedy
• 47:47
  unintentionally echoing Monty Python?
• 47:50
  That was part of my part of my defence.
• 47:53
  Yeah. With David Scofield's Odin,
• 47:56
  Maisie Williams is OK here, but not the earth shattering
• 47:59
  performance some regard it as keep it.
• 48:02
  Jason Thompson says remembers this whole time travel lark is a
• 48:05
  bit of fun. Lightness is welcomed at this
• 48:08
  stage. I really enjoyed the Doctor
• 48:10
  getting a bunch of inept Vikings to defend their village.
• 48:12
  It also took a thing previously used as a gag and flapped it and
• 48:16
  flipped it to genuinely affecting and plot relevant
• 48:19
  moments as the Doctor translates the baby crying.
• 48:22
  Michael Storm At first, this episode was a bit of a let down.
• 48:25
  It's essentially A romp, and perhaps undeserving of being the
• 48:28
  episode to kick off the 2nd strand of the season story arc,
• 48:32
  The Doctors I Can Talk Baby works a lot better here with the
• 48:35
  phrases The child is saying Mother, I'm frightened, fire in
• 48:38
  the water being more believable than the more complex, complex
• 48:42
  linguistic constructions put about by that hack, Gareth
• 48:46
  Roberts in closing Time. At this point, Maisie Williams's
• 48:49
  character is quite fun. John Bensalia says, sunk by the
• 48:53
  supposed big name custom of Maisie Williams, who's even more
• 48:56
  wooden than 10,000 IKEA shops. Capaldi Lombard with Pompous
• 49:01
  Hero Delusion Dialogue. Darren Lip Randall's OK as it
• 49:05
  has moments that amuse me. Nothing spectacular but it's
• 49:08
  watchable. But I loathe the doctor speaking
• 49:10
  baby and the needless why I choose his face.
• 49:13
  Old 16 never felt the need to ask.
• 49:16
  James H says the Doctor ends up being responsible for another
• 49:19
  immortal, only he does it using basic technology, and no one
• 49:23
  ever tried this before or since. Complexicated Cookie
• 49:27
  Complexicated. Good grief.
• 49:29
  Complexicated Cookie? You got that.
• 49:33
  Not not a big fan of the two of Shielder stories in the middle
• 49:36
  of the series. Feels like they were desperate
• 49:38
  for some way to shoehorn Maisie Williams in.
• 49:40
  And finally, crash dummy says poorest guest act in Doctor Who.
• 49:44
  The frog on the Chair has more acting ability and charisma.
• 49:50
  No, Joe, you've championed a story and I am also going to
• 49:54
  support you. I'm the Girl Who Died.
• 49:56
  I think it's a really clever script with loads of witty,
• 49:59
  brilliant dialogue. I could sit here quoting the
• 50:02
  dialogue for 45 minutes, but that wouldn't do our running
• 50:04
  time any good. So instead I'm just going to
• 50:08
  identify a couple of throwbacks. There are three eras that are
• 50:13
  both blatantly and more subtly referenced in this episode.
• 50:18
  So first of all, we've got two kind of throwbacks or twists on
• 50:21
  tenant. The obvious one is Fires of
• 50:24
  Pompeii, when the Doctor remembers why he's got
• 50:27
  Collegius's face, and that's in order to save somebody, in this
• 50:30
  case, a shoulder. But it's also more than that.
• 50:33
  I see this almost as the 12th Doctor's Time Lord victorious
• 50:36
  moment, because he's prepared to ignore all the rules and do what
• 50:40
  he thinks He shouts. If anyone happens to be
• 50:42
  listening and you've got any kind of problem with that, to
• 50:45
  hell with you. So he's doing very much what
• 50:47
  Tennant did in Waters of Mars. But he's not got tennants
• 50:51
  showboating traits, so almost a shame.
• 50:56
  Thank you Bambera. Almost as soon as he's done it,
• 50:59
  he's questioning whether he's made a terrible mistake.
• 51:02
  And it does prove to be a mistake, because ultimately this
• 51:04
  is what leads to Clara's death in Face the Raven.
• 51:07
  But there's also more compassion in this Doctor than we had in in
• 51:11
  Tennant, when he was Time Lord victorious, when he saved had a
• 51:14
  lady was just very smug about it.
• 51:16
  Here, Kopoldi, straight away, the first thing he thinks about
• 51:18
  is giving a Shielder a second chip so that if she falls in
• 51:22
  love in the future, she can share our life with someone.
• 51:25
  And that's again, very different.
• 51:26
  And he's he's wondering, have I done something?
• 51:29
  Have I created a tidal wave? And if you want to get really
• 51:31
  meta, is this a throwback to the Time Meddler where he failed to
• 51:35
  save a Viking woman? So act here to right that wrong.
• 51:40
  Joe looks stunned. We're all stunned.
• 51:45
  And it's also. I'm sorry, I wasn't listening.
• 51:53
  There's also a couple of throwbacks or twists on Matt
• 51:56
  Smith. We've already identified that he
• 51:58
  can now talk Baby. And yes, I think that works far
• 52:00
  better than the comedy shtick in Good Man Goes to War on Closing
• 52:04
  Time. But there's also someone just
• 52:10
  let the air out of jail. But there's also more throw,
• 52:14
  there's more subtle throwback. So Matt Smith's period talks an
• 52:18
  awful lot. And we will get into this series
• 52:19
  as well about stories and storytelling.
• 52:22
  And we got that litter throughout Matt Smith's time,
• 52:24
  probably most obviously in The Angels Who Take Manhattan.
• 52:27
  But here we've also got big focus on storytelling.
• 52:30
  So it's all about a shield as puppet that she used for
• 52:33
  storytelling. They're what saved the day, and
• 52:35
  it's the the fear of the Doctor telling the story of the Maya's
• 52:39
  defeat that sends them scuttling.
• 52:42
  We're. Going to get later in this
• 52:43
  season, Stephen Moffatt's biggest journey into a story
• 52:49
  about storytelling. There's actually a story about
• 52:52
  something else, but we'll get there.
• 52:54
  We will. That's my first bullet point on
• 52:55
  that particular story, so I better take that one first.
• 53:00
  And then finally we've got some throwbacks and twists on perk we
• 53:03
  era. So Capaldi getting the Viking
• 53:06
  troops ready for war reminds me so much of the Time Warrior with
• 53:10
  him training the troops and and fighting off iron grumsmen with
• 53:14
  smoke bombs and stink bombs. Here instead we've got Capaldi
• 53:17
  training the Viking hords and calling them lofty Daphne
• 53:21
  nugging the nogs, easy top Heidi and chuckles, which I think is
• 53:25
  very funny. And then you've also obviously
• 53:28
  got the Doctor reversing the polarity of the neutron flow
• 53:31
  when he fixes the Maya's helmet. But then there's that whole
• 53:33
  sequence of him, the kind of improvised set up with the
• 53:36
  electric eels and the magnets, which is all the set up to to
• 53:40
  chase away the Maya. That's very reminiscent of kind
• 53:42
  of the third parties. Isn't it good to laugh?
• 53:44
  Absolutely. Isn't it nice to laugh?
• 53:47
  It's a shame this is the only time we can all year, but it's
• 53:50
  so nice to laugh. Absolutely.
• 53:53
  And to the score of Benny Hill as well, what's better than
• 53:56
  that? So, yeah, I'm absolutely putting
• 53:58
  it through, Pete. This one I'm more on the I'm on
• 54:02
  the fence about and you you guys are swinging me to to to the
• 54:06
  happy side of the fence on this one because I could I could sort
• 54:09
  of take it or leave it. There are things I like and
• 54:12
  things I didn't like. I love the the whole concept of
• 54:14
  the puppet thing that I thought that was just really nicely
• 54:17
  realized. But it the the picture looks.
• 54:21
  Sort of washed out and Odin looks so awful in the clouds.
• 54:24
  But then I suppose that is meant to be a projection anyway.
• 54:28
  I. Don't like his whole I'm the
• 54:31
  Doctor and I say people bit. I didn't like it when Tennant
• 54:34
  did it and I don't. And even if it's, I know it's
• 54:37
  it's addressed. So I'm not.
• 54:39
  I'm not, I'm not ignoring the fact that it's being done for a
• 54:42
  purpose, but it it's still just kind of, I'm just kind of like,
• 54:45
  oh, we're doing that again, are we?
• 54:48
  And the flashback to The Fires of Pompeii is interesting
• 54:50
  because I've always found that I love that episode, but I've
• 54:52
  always found it so morally dodgy.
• 54:54
  Look that because because Donna cries he takes a couple of
• 54:56
  people doesn't you know go back for their slaves is just take
• 55:01
  take these nice people and I'll stop crying all right then which
• 55:04
  I'm I'm surmising there's more to it than that but in this is
• 55:08
  another one of the thing if you're gonna put yeah not much
• 55:10
  it's the one where if you're gonna write checks this potent
• 55:14
  and you have just got to try and it annoyed me a lot at the time
• 55:17
  that he gives he just bestows immortality on her by this this
• 55:20
  chip when there's nothing unusual about this it's not the
• 55:23
  only one like that in the universe.
• 55:24
  So there could be, I mean there should be a bus queue when he
• 55:27
  gets to the end of the universe later if where do all these
• 55:30
  chips end up. But this point you just made
• 55:32
  about having a spare for it is another good example.
• 55:35
  So yeah it is Easter people coming back from the dead is as
• 55:39
  we're recording, people coming back from the dead is is is
• 55:41
  seasonal. So yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll let
• 55:43
  this one stay. Wow.
• 55:44
  Jr. Wave of positivity that's coming
• 55:48
  out, going on. Well, you've looked at it
• 55:50
  through, haven't you? So I don't need to say it's
• 55:53
  shit, can it? No.
• 55:56
  I know it's great. You got us.
• 56:03
  It's great. It goes through for all the
• 56:05
  reasons that you've said. So.
• 56:07
  Two stories that are going through what's going on?
• 56:11
  I don't know about you, Rod, but as I understand the format of
• 56:16
  this, one of them has to win, right?
• 56:18
  So I can have all nine of them. You can have all nine of them
• 56:21
  kicked out, yeah, but when you've got Joe.
• 56:23
  And Pete, on this panel, I was expecting it to go slightly
• 56:26
  differently, but hey, I'm loving it.
• 56:29
  Should we? Go to We've barely started, Rod.
• 56:32
  Should we go to our? 2nd batch of comments from the
• 56:34
  listeners. Yeah, please.
• 56:36
  Let's see if they're as tuned into it, because we've just had,
• 56:39
  you know, so much positivity in the last 20 minutes.
• 56:43
  Will our listeners feel that same love?
• 56:46
  Luke Malloy says the highest highs and the lowest lows of the
• 56:50
  first ten seasons. The least enjoyable at the time
• 56:53
  and probably now, but also the most experimental.
• 56:57
  It's astonishing, though, when compared to the five years of
• 56:59
  chibbers to come. Oh, there it is.
• 57:01
  He's only right. He's only.
• 57:02
  Right. Somebody had to do it.
• 57:04
  Didn't they? Bring up Chibnall.
• 57:06
  Pete started it with Bloody Orphan 55.
• 57:08
  Come on. In a good way.
• 57:13
  James Lark says such a relief after 1/2 assed pure, poorly
• 57:18
  conceived series 8. Instead of a Doctor Who was
• 57:21
  unpleasant and unpredictable for nebulous dramatic reasons, you
• 57:25
  have a consistent character delivering a neat line in droll
• 57:27
  but affectionate put downs. This is also a series with the
• 57:31
  balls to employ A2 part structure to let stories breathe
• 57:34
  and develop, and to do a couple of wildly experimental and dark
• 57:38
  one off episodes. David Gillespie Pratt says a
• 57:43
  couple of bright spots. I mean, he could be talking
• 57:45
  about me and Pete for all I know.
• 57:50
  Or is it just back from the doctor?
• 57:53
  We're all just back from the Doctor, he says.
• 57:57
  A couple of bright spots, but it's what we get when Doctor Who
• 57:59
  forgets it should be fun if the whole hybrid thing felt like fan
• 58:03
  wanky bollocks, and that's before we get to the final
• 58:05
  reveal. I mean, on that point, that is
• 58:08
  my overall take away about this season is that it's so wrapped
• 58:12
  up in the arc, probably the girl who died and maybe Sleep no More
• 58:16
  are the only two that actually sort of step away from that.
• 58:20
  And my So my take away of this was it's like 9 great stories,
• 58:24
  but actually if you watch them all together, it just becomes a
• 58:28
  bit difficult. I agree.
• 58:31
  Yeah, anyway, sorry. And very refreshing those, those
• 58:33
  two that are thought of outliers, it's very refreshing.
• 58:38
  Yeah yeah and Pin. That says much better than the
• 58:42
  previous season, partly down to the softening of the Doctor's
• 58:44
  personality. However, Clara is just so
• 58:47
  irritating. Glad to see the back of her it's
• 58:50
  peaks and troughs sort of season.
• 58:52
  The first four or five episodes are good.
• 58:54
  The series then sags in the middle before rallying around
• 58:56
  again. Definitely needed more lighter
• 58:58
  moments as the tone was very dark and grim.
• 59:03
  Crashed, Dummy says For me, the nadir of the new series.
• 59:07
  I found it unwatchable during broadcast, and when I finally
• 59:11
  saw it, I disliked it intently. I'm really glad people like it,
• 59:16
  but it's just not for me. Thankfully, Capaldi gets Series
• 59:18
  10 to finally show he can be a great Doctor.
• 59:24
  Jason Thompson says the mostly the mostly two-part structure
• 59:28
  works very well and it ties and it tries new things, something
• 59:31
  Doctor Who should never be afraid of doing but little
• 59:34
  entices me to re watch. Capaldi and Coleman are superb
• 59:37
  though. It's interesting that people, a
• 59:39
  lot of people are picking up on it, trying new things.
• 59:41
  And because because I know one of my my rather acerbic words
• 59:45
  was about feeling, it was unimaginative and I know I can
• 59:49
  see why people. Would.
• 59:51
  Completely disagree with that. But it's it.
• 59:54
  Me in. In my mind, it's because of the
• 59:55
  tone and because of the and the doctorate.
• 59:58
  We had a year of Clara deciding whether or not she'd liked this
• 1:00:02
  new Doctor or not, and then they're together again, and it's
• 1:00:04
  still kind of, oh, they're still sort of dysfunctional.
• 1:00:07
  They're not like the Doctor and Terry and Mindwarp, who get
• 1:00:09
  their four episodes of Actually. Liking each other before he goes
• 1:00:12
  mad. And tries to kill.
• 1:00:13
  Her again. The suggestion we're not in in
• 1:00:15
  last Christmas suggestion is they grab each other's hand at
• 1:00:18
  the end. Way we're off on an.
• 1:00:20
  Adventure. And then we have a whole season
• 1:00:22
  where basically they're apart for most of the year.
• 1:00:25
  It's really old. Yeah.
• 1:00:28
  Sorry, diverging, Tom Newsom says.
• 1:00:32
  Tom Newsom says. At the time I had found the
• 1:00:34
  previous series fascinating, but suddenly this felt wrong to me.
• 1:00:39
  Darker, sure, but also wretched and ultimately a not very good
• 1:00:43
  end result. Wretched.
• 1:00:45
  That's a strong word. Big.
• 1:00:48
  Orange. He meant to say Ratchet because
• 1:00:50
  he'd been watching 1 Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, and probably
• 1:00:53
  that character is what they see, in fact.
• 1:00:55
  Louise Fletcher would have live. And if Louise Fletcher played
• 1:00:58
  me, that would have been gold. Plays you?
• 1:01:01
  No, me. I could imagine her as you,
• 1:01:03
  actually. Or you was killed her as she'll
• 1:01:05
  do. He knows what I mean.
• 1:01:08
  I. Want to show to have just been
• 1:01:10
  played by a small frog now, in fact, literally Kermit guest
• 1:01:16
  star in Doctor Who. It's.
• 1:01:17
  Kermit himself. Now that we've I'm Speaking of,
• 1:01:20
  which I was watching The Empire Strikes Back today with Kermit.
• 1:01:23
  Grandfather, Right? Anyway, now that we've got AI,
• 1:01:29
  surely we can get Louise Fletcher in a frog costume
• 1:01:32
  playing a shelter. Oh.
• 1:01:33
  Perfect. And it would still look better
• 1:01:35
  than that main Starling master plan.
• 1:01:38
  Sorry. It's going to please everyone,
• 1:01:40
  obviously. Big Orange Michael, meanwhile,
• 1:01:43
  says. Love it.
• 1:01:45
  It feels like Moffett is remoulding Modern Who to be more
• 1:01:48
  like Classic Who with cliffhangers and longer stories
• 1:01:51
  for greater world and character building.
• 1:01:53
  I realize a lot of fans. I realize I realize a lot of
• 1:01:58
  fans don't love it like I do. But this feels like a series
• 1:02:01
  Moffett wrote for me. Dave Rennie says Capaldi is
• 1:02:05
  softer than the year before, but Clara should have left by now.
• 1:02:09
  Don't think having a lot of two-part has worked.
• 1:02:11
  I want to say that Dave Rennie probably got a headache from
• 1:02:14
  watching Series 9, but I wouldn't be so nervous to.
• 1:02:16
  Go down. Oh, how long did that one would
• 1:02:20
  take you? Jr. 2?
• 1:02:22
  Seconds he's in front of me, now he's.
• 1:02:25
  A dumb hand of this, you know. Matt Dennis says straight up
• 1:02:30
  adore it. It's experimental, and some
• 1:02:32
  stories are a mixed bag, but Moffett is brimming with
• 1:02:35
  confidence. Sorry.
• 1:02:38
  Are you still trying so hard to inhabit the part of someone who
• 1:02:43
  thinks this? Moffett is brimming with
• 1:02:45
  confidence again after a couple of difficult years.
• 1:02:48
  And it shows, No doubt emboldened by casting such a
• 1:02:51
  powerhouse actor like Capaldi. Well, on that I definitely do
• 1:02:54
  agree, yes. But you know, I've worked.
• 1:02:56
  I'm talking. I haven't ranted about Sherlock
• 1:02:58
  yet, have I? I worked so hard.
• 1:03:00
  I worked so hard to divvy up the comments so two of you would get
• 1:03:03
  one, so might stick in your throat.
• 1:03:08
  He's useful. Ah, don't worry, I'm sorry.
• 1:03:11
  Sorry, I'm sorry. Moving swiftly on LSJ, says the
• 1:03:19
  series that made me stop watching on its original
• 1:03:22
  broadcast. I finally finished it recently
• 1:03:25
  and fucking hell, Clara, go away.
• 1:03:28
  Only one Capaldi season without her.
• 1:03:31
  A crime? And John Deere says one of my
• 1:03:37
  absolute favourites. This has been one of my favorite
• 1:03:41
  rounds of viewer comments ever. Yeah.
• 1:03:43
  Do you know the one thing I'm taking away from me that a lot
• 1:03:46
  of people are saying? Oh, it feels like it was for me,
• 1:03:48
  it was done for me. Yeah.
• 1:03:50
  And there are certain type of fan not to cast any shade on
• 1:03:53
  those people, but it's like, it reminds me what Dylan re said to
• 1:03:56
  me once. It's like he, when we were
• 1:03:58
  talking about heaven, certain hell bent.
• 1:03:59
  He went, well, the Doctor Who shouldn't always be for the
• 1:04:02
  casual viewer, and it shouldn't always be for kids.
• 1:04:04
  So I said right, So what? It should just be for old geeks.
• 1:04:07
  Then we should just be making Doctor Who for Ian Levine.
• 1:04:09
  And he said yes, and I don't agree, but it seems like there's
• 1:04:14
  a few of those in there making comments.
• 1:04:16
  I think the point though is that it it should always have a base,
• 1:04:20
  but it should lean in different directions from that base.
• 1:04:23
  Going back to the analogy I was making before, I should have,
• 1:04:26
  like I asked as in our thread before we did this, like weeks
• 1:04:30
  ago. Now actually what was it?
• 1:04:31
  I said, I said I wonder what the Venn diagram is, what the
• 1:04:34
  crossover in the Venn diagram is between the people who said
• 1:04:37
  Series 9 is too dark and the periods, people who hold up
• 1:04:40
  Hinchcliff and Holmes as their favorite era of Doctor Who.
• 1:04:43
  Because that was, you know, this series.
• 1:04:46
  The Capaldi era is the Hinchcliff and Holmes era of the
• 1:04:50
  modern series absolutely is. I think that well, I sorry Pete,
• 1:04:54
  you come. Yeah, not only because I'm
• 1:04:56
  jumping because because yeah, that was such a good comment and
• 1:04:59
  I think it goes to the nub of whether this series does or
• 1:05:03
  doesn't click for you, because for me.
• 1:05:05
  This. Isn't the darkness that I like?
• 1:05:08
  I like darkness with fire in it. I like darkness that's that's
• 1:05:13
  like coming to get you and I don't know.
• 1:05:15
  Whereas this is dreary and about remorse and discomfort and
• 1:05:21
  characters who just can't get along together and then end up
• 1:05:25
  being the the Doctor overwhelmed with with bleakness at the end.
• 1:05:31
  Darkness but. Real quote What's What has
• 1:05:34
  happened to the magic of Doctor Who?
• 1:05:37
  It's two different shades of darkness.
• 1:05:38
  The two different. It's darkness with different
• 1:05:40
  contract. Ah, the bright, the darkness is
• 1:05:42
  down. But the contrast.
• 1:05:43
  No, this was going to sound like a really good metaphor, and it's
• 1:05:46
  fallen to bits. Shall I?
• 1:05:49
  Shall I take over Pete and say I'm going to start on Heaven's
• 1:05:52
  Scent? Because Darkness, let's let's
• 1:05:55
  move on to Heaven's Scent. Oh, this is a musical episode,
• 1:05:58
  wasn't it? I don't think so.
• 1:06:01
  No, it is not musical episode. This is the apotheosis of the
• 1:06:07
  Moffett era. I don't think any other producer
• 1:06:09
  would have produced or even attempted to produce something
• 1:06:12
  like this. And there are so many reasons to
• 1:06:16
  love this. I think the plot is a puzzle box
• 1:06:19
  that all fits together in the most ingenious ways of superb
• 1:06:23
  acting, superb direction, superb design, music to die for.
• 1:06:28
  But I don't like her. I knew you weren't going to put
• 1:06:30
  this through. You do this.
• 1:06:32
  Start off with my load of praise and then go in the other
• 1:06:35
  direction. I just don't like her.
• 1:06:37
  And I heard you recently Joe with with Dylan and Luke when
• 1:06:40
  you were the the lone voice but. It just.
• 1:06:43
  Doesn't lone but the loudest. I will always This just doesn't
• 1:06:47
  speak to me. And so I had to pick out three
• 1:06:49
  reasons why it doesn't speak to me.
• 1:06:51
  The first one would be the rewatch factor.
• 1:06:54
  So this is ostensibly a kind of treatise on grief and
• 1:06:58
  depression. The Doctor is literally breaking
• 1:07:00
  down the wall, haunted by the ghost of his companion, which
• 1:07:03
  obviously is very akin to grief and no one really talks about
• 1:07:07
  this, but the Doctor says explicitly that the only way he
• 1:07:10
  can stop the monster, IE depression, is to confess his
• 1:07:14
  hidden truths. So very much kind of, you know,
• 1:07:16
  talking therapist like we talked about on the Can You Hear Me
• 1:07:19
  episode. But whilst I can appreciate all
• 1:07:22
  of that and see all of that, that doesn't make us an episode
• 1:07:25
  that I want to rewatch. There's a remoteless and that
• 1:07:28
  clinicalness and a coldness to it that just doesn't appeal to
• 1:07:31
  me. I like Doctor Who for it's
• 1:07:33
  humour, it's characters, it's plots, and I don't really get
• 1:07:36
  any of that here. Once you know the twist, you
• 1:07:39
  know, yes, you can watch it again for its cleverness that it
• 1:07:42
  all fits together, but it doesn't offer me anything.
• 1:07:45
  So can I just? Count to that before you move
• 1:07:47
  on. Yeah, of course, because I don't
• 1:07:49
  think it's about depression so much as and it clearly is about
• 1:07:53
  depression. But I think that's the subtext.
• 1:07:55
  I think the text is that it's about determination.
• 1:07:58
  It's not about, it's not about the being depressed, it's not
• 1:08:02
  about the grief, it's about the thing you do to get past that.
• 1:08:06
  And I think the subsequent episode hell bent that the way
• 1:08:10
  that plays out this episode is about determination.
• 1:08:13
  It's about having a determination to do something,
• 1:08:16
  and it's about getting yourself into the mental state where you
• 1:08:20
  can do the thing that you know you need to do.
• 1:08:22
  Because that thing you need to do is so horrendous it doesn't
• 1:08:26
  bear thinking about. And it's about a character
• 1:08:28
  turning himself around to the point at which he can do that
• 1:08:31
  thing that's so horrendous you can't think about it.
• 1:08:34
  Yeah, let's see enough. The the the way it's dealt with
• 1:08:37
  in Heaven Sent didn't speak to me either.
• 1:08:39
  And there's a little spoilers for where I'm going with this
• 1:08:41
  later. And I felt not in in the way
• 1:08:45
  explored grief or determination or whatever you want to call it.
• 1:08:48
  It just didn't correspond to anything that I'd gone through.
• 1:08:52
  Hell Bent, on the other hand, where the Doctor is literally
• 1:08:55
  willing to tear down the universe to save his friend,
• 1:08:58
  That did speak to me because I was so angry when I lost my mum.
• 1:09:02
  I was willing to tear the world down in order to bring her back.
• 1:09:06
  So yeah, sorry, I just wanted to jump in there.
• 1:09:08
  It's. No, I think they are.
• 1:09:10
  They are two very different episodes, as we'll get to.
• 1:09:12
  But yeah, this just doesn't, right?
• 1:09:15
  So the rewatch factor is 1, and I compared it to the like, the
• 1:09:18
  music of The Shepherd's Boy, which I've listened to hundreds
• 1:09:21
  of times, but I've probably only watched this episode, I think,
• 1:09:24
  when they're watching it here. That was probably the third time
• 1:09:26
  I've ever seen this, Well, probably the least I've ever
• 1:09:28
  seen of any episode, because it just doesn't.
• 1:09:31
  It doesn't sing. That's a long day, Rod, and
• 1:09:33
  goes, oh, really fancy watching that hour, that treatise of
• 1:09:36
  grief The Doctor Who did. It's not going to sing to you.
• 1:09:42
  Is that so? My second reason is the Doctor's
• 1:09:44
  grief. So the show kind of presents us
• 1:09:47
  with two real extremes of grief. You've got the Adric school of
• 1:09:50
  grief, which is, Oh dear, Adric's just died.
• 1:09:53
  Let's go off to the Great Exhibition of 1851.
• 1:09:56
  And then you get this, which is so overwrought and so much of
• 1:10:00
  the other end of the extreme. And if the Doctor reacted in
• 1:10:04
  this way, I think he's different in in hell bent.
• 1:10:08
  But if he was this paralysed with kind of grief and
• 1:10:10
  depression every time he lost a friend or companion, there
• 1:10:14
  wouldn't be any series. I want to see that version of
• 1:10:17
  Time Flight. Now you're just punching
• 1:10:20
  Concorde for 90 minutes and. Screwing.
• 1:10:22
  I buy time flight more than this because you know what you have
• 1:10:25
  to do with your life when you lose somebody is you just
• 1:10:28
  fucking get on with it. You have to get on with your
• 1:10:30
  life. You can't hang around for
• 1:10:31
  millions of years in a castle brooding.
• 1:10:34
  And you know what? There is actually an iota of
• 1:10:37
  subtlety in the Davidson period, because you know, Adric's the
• 1:10:40
  last person that maybe some seeds before he dies, so he has
• 1:10:43
  got bottle bottled up grief. Whereas here there is an awful
• 1:10:46
  lot of subtlety going on in this episode.
• 1:10:48
  But there's that line, isn't it? That brilliant line.
• 1:10:51
  It's not the days immediately afterwards where you've got
• 1:10:53
  things to do that her, it's the days after that when you don't
• 1:10:56
  have anything. To do that her.
• 1:10:58
  Yeah, absolutely. So you're putting it through
• 1:11:01
  then, Rod. No, no, I like that line.
• 1:11:05
  There are good lines and there's lots of good stuff in it, but it
• 1:11:07
  just doesn't resonate with me. And my third reason is it makes
• 1:11:12
  me feel dirty because I love Moffett.
• 1:11:14
  I love his trickery, so I should love this, but I don't.
• 1:11:18
  I feel bad and it makes me feel dirty.
• 1:11:20
  So for that reason alone, it's going in the bin.
• 1:11:23
  I mean, it won the all time number one Doctor Who story
• 1:11:26
  ever, as voted by those stellar chaps that vote in Doctor Who
• 1:11:30
  Magazine polls. Well, do you know what?
• 1:11:32
  It was kind of reaction to that that made me think about doing
• 1:11:34
  this podcast. You know what?
• 1:11:38
  You've shot yourself in the foot, haven't you?
• 1:11:40
  No, you. But you don't get a vote now.
• 1:11:43
  So no, I don't. We know what Joe's doing.
• 1:11:45
  But it and I know Pete to put it through and it goes and then
• 1:11:49
  it's going to win the whole thing.
• 1:11:50
  Do I honestly think Pete is going to put it through?
• 1:11:54
  I think I'm playing a fairly safe card there, but who knows?
• 1:11:57
  I'm prepared to be surprised. Let's do the comments.
• 1:12:00
  Let's do the. Comments Gareth Bowley says
• 1:12:02
  Wonderful. In today's TV world, it
• 1:12:05
  shouldn't work. But I'm blown away by Capaldi's
• 1:12:07
  performance, the pacing direction and outstanding music
• 1:12:10
  that builds throughout. Called SMY decent, but have no
• 1:12:14
  idea how this was voted. The greatest story.
• 1:12:17
  Capaldi admittedly was great, but it did go on too long and by
• 1:12:20
  the end I was getting a bit bored.
• 1:12:22
  Daniel Knight says the best Doctor Who story ever.
• 1:12:25
  Not even close. The best performance by a
• 1:12:27
  Doctor? That's hard to beat.
• 1:12:29
  And there's a showcase for Capaldi's talents.
• 1:12:31
  It's perfect. Keep it.
• 1:12:33
  James Lark is heaven sent the best.
• 1:12:35
  Once again, We have a best versus favorite situation here,
• 1:12:38
  don't we? This is Doctor Who at its most
• 1:12:40
  most art house. It makes Warrior's Gate look
• 1:12:43
  like the Horns of Nimon, but I was blown away by it at the time
• 1:12:47
  and it's a flawless production. Colin Hicks says it's miserable,
• 1:12:50
  repetitive, both in its structure and the way it reuses
• 1:12:53
  ideas from Moffitt. Storytelling.
• 1:12:55
  Ben and it pandas the worst, most joyless expectations of
• 1:12:59
  what every Doctor Who should be like very much not my doctor.
• 1:13:04
  The handsome John Arnold. Everyone's on fire.
• 1:13:07
  Actor, writer, director and designer at the top of their
• 1:13:10
  game in a very adult meditation on grief.
• 1:13:13
  Perfect in setting, sorry. Perfect in setting out what it
• 1:13:16
  wants to achieve. But that darkness means I don't
• 1:13:19
  go back to it as often as I might imply.
• 1:13:21
  James H Crikey This is going to be worse than mine, isn't it?
• 1:13:24
  James H, says Moffett, Smugness, telling us in advance that it
• 1:13:28
  only had the Doctor in it made the entire plot pitifully
• 1:13:31
  obvious from the opening watch. It was like watching 4 billion
• 1:13:34
  years play out in real. Time.
• 1:13:37
  Inconsistent illogical setting into the Matrix would have
• 1:13:41
  sorted out many of the issues, and it doesn't matter how good
• 1:13:44
  an actor Capaldi is, when the story takes an unused plot
• 1:13:47
  sequence from Eric Saywood in the 80s, you know it's going to
• 1:13:51
  be crap. Darren lit roundels.
• 1:13:53
  I can see why fans salivate over it, but it does nothing for me.
• 1:13:56
  I don't like the setting. I don't like the concept.
• 1:13:58
  It was showing signs of Sherlock leaning into it.
• 1:14:01
  It really was. I was tired of the relentless
• 1:14:04
  cleverness, the Clara obsession. I was so dumb with it.
• 1:14:07
  Big orange, Michael said. This is Moffett tailoring the
• 1:14:10
  story to his lead actor and the lead actor running with it,
• 1:14:13
  adding some nice direction, and you've got a great episode.
• 1:14:16
  Paul Quinn Capaldi is remarkable, and I'm sure it's
• 1:14:19
  very worthy as an examination of grief or what or writer's block,
• 1:14:23
  but it is a coherent story that adds to the arc of the season.
• 1:14:27
  And is it really a Doctor Who story?
• 1:14:29
  However, the final 10 minutes are some of the greatest Doctor
• 1:14:31
  Who of all time. Watch them again and again and
• 1:14:35
  I'll see what you did there, but never bother with the rest of
• 1:14:37
  the episode. Michael Storm says possibly
• 1:14:39
  Moffat's Magnus opus, a superb fusion of writing, acting,
• 1:14:43
  direction and score. A wonderful metaphor for grief
• 1:14:46
  and depression, with Breaking the Wall being a strong
• 1:14:48
  representation of finding the strength to keep on fighting
• 1:14:52
  through the same cold, hard routine.
• 1:14:54
  But it's also about losing and coming back.
• 1:14:57
  The Doctor has lost his last battle and he's regrouping,
• 1:15:00
  rebuilding and preparing to come back stronger.
• 1:15:03
  We're nearly there, folks. Jason Thompson, an absolute
• 1:15:06
  powerhouse performance from Capaldi.
• 1:15:08
  I have no desire to revisit an exploration of grief and loss,
• 1:15:11
  so I'm unlikely to ever rewatch. It, Melvin Pennier says.
• 1:15:15
  We talk about how the Doctor changes the lives of his
• 1:15:17
  companions, but here we see how profoundly Clara has affected
• 1:15:21
  him across his last two lives. His commitment to the monologue
• 1:15:24
  plot is absolute and relentless. Capaldi rules, and he will never
• 1:15:29
  stop. Very succinctly crash, dummy,
• 1:15:32
  smug and mediocre on every level.
• 1:15:35
  John Bensalia Now prepare for smelling salts everyone, John
• 1:15:39
  Bensalia says. I was sceptical about the press
• 1:15:41
  buzz for this. Ironically, it turned out to be
• 1:15:44
  the best new Who episode ever made.
• 1:15:47
  Funny and moving, scary and unusually near the knuckle in
• 1:15:50
  terms of horror. Kabaldi top stuff with a Tour de
• 1:15:53
  force turn. Why can't all new Who be as good
• 1:15:56
  as this? You know what's funny, right?
• 1:15:58
  It's. I feel like, generally speaking,
• 1:15:59
  John Benzaglia hates all the new series episodes, and we all love
• 1:16:02
  them. Well, he loves this episode, and
• 1:16:05
  I've got a strange feeling that none of us are going to like it.
• 1:16:07
  Well, let's find out. So you.
• 1:16:09
  Better go first. Then yes, I'd.
• 1:16:10
  Better go first. Go for it.
• 1:16:12
  Maybe I can turn this around all right.
• 1:16:15
  Come on, jail. So Rod, you are right.
• 1:16:20
  Stephen Moffitt, when he pulls you in and then turns it around
• 1:16:26
  and gives you that killer surprise that comes out of
• 1:16:29
  nowhere, and yet when you think back on everything that came
• 1:16:32
  before, it's so logical, it's so predictable and yet you didn't
• 1:16:37
  see it coming. That's astonishing.
• 1:16:40
  That is not what he does in this episode.
• 1:16:42
  He's contrived this episode. There is some really amazing
• 1:16:51
  things in this episode. Doctor Who has moments in this
• 1:16:55
  episode where that is never bettered, but some of the
• 1:16:59
  mechanics of it are contrived and it is quite mechanical.
• 1:17:04
  It is literally Steven Moffat lining up a bunch of cogs and
• 1:17:09
  then turning one end and watching the other end to go.
• 1:17:12
  And there's no surprise in that. There's no surprise at all.
• 1:17:16
  But basically the thing I really miss with this, as beautiful as
• 1:17:20
  it is and as lovely as some of it is, it is I really like when
• 1:17:24
  Stephen Muffler writes people talking to each other and
• 1:17:28
  there's none of that in this episode.
• 1:17:30
  And so I do think it's, I do think it's a decent episode of
• 1:17:35
  Doctor Who, but I don't think it's anything like the best
• 1:17:37
  episode in this season and I don't want it to win.
• 1:17:40
  So I definitely. Are you?
• 1:17:45
  Going to put through sleep the more.
• 1:17:47
  And none of us put through. Heaven said.
• 1:17:49
  I know we like to go push against the grain on this
• 1:17:52
  podcast, but. Is this hell bent or heaven
• 1:17:54
  sent? I get the names the wrong way
• 1:17:55
  around. Heaven sent, Heaven sent.
• 1:17:57
  We've been talking. About a 50, no.
• 1:17:59
  No, I might not. I get the names the wrong way
• 1:18:02
  round. I know it's from the.
• 1:18:03
  It's the one with the castle, the.
• 1:18:05
  One with the castle. The one with the castle.
• 1:18:07
  I thought that was hell bent, OK?
• 1:18:08
  Or pay you go next. OK, if that doesn't get me
• 1:18:13
  thrown off. Think of it this way.
• 1:18:15
  He's been sent to heaven. The confession dial, and that's
• 1:18:19
  why this is heaven sent. And in the next one, he's built
• 1:18:22
  up all those wells of determination.
• 1:18:25
  So in the next one, he's hell bent.
• 1:18:27
  He's in hell and he's bent. That's a different show
• 1:18:30
  altogether. That's my home.
• 1:18:32
  It's. Hamster with a black pen.
• 1:18:33
  Dive down to a tee. What?
• 1:18:37
  Bent as hell? No.
• 1:18:39
  Ben and we're all going to hell. So I've now swapped the titles
• 1:18:43
  around on my notes and it all makes sense.
• 1:18:47
  OK, I haven't completely undermined anything I'm about to
• 1:18:49
  say. At first I was like, OK, this
• 1:18:52
  this is interesting. So right, previous episode,
• 1:18:55
  obviously Clara meets her demise.
• 1:18:57
  Damn you, Moffett. I thought so many times, and
• 1:19:00
  we're obviously going to talk about that episode in a bit, but
• 1:19:02
  you know, Moffett with his constant cheating death thing is
• 1:19:06
  so boring. And I really got convinced that
• 1:19:08
  that one time, yeah, I'm a complete sucker.
• 1:19:11
  That one time I thought, OK, this is actually the twist that
• 1:19:14
  Moffett is doing, is she is actually dead.
• 1:19:15
  Of course she's not. I know, but I thought we were
• 1:19:19
  going to get 2 episodes about actually dealing with it.
• 1:19:22
  Instead, we get to I'm sorry, but he punches a wall for six
• 1:19:25
  hours to make her magically come back. 6 billion years to make
• 1:19:27
  her magically come back to life again.
• 1:19:29
  That's not dealing with it. There's a brilliant episode of
• 1:19:33
  the episode that I think he's aping with this whole thing of
• 1:19:36
  the body. The Buffy episode where she
• 1:19:38
  loses someone, Spoilers. Was 20 years old.
• 1:19:42
  Whatever. But the episode immediately
• 1:19:45
  after it has Dawn, Duffy's little sister, trying to bring
• 1:19:49
  her back using and like the whole thing is about and and the
• 1:19:53
  horror that she's of that episode is that she's trying to
• 1:19:57
  use magic to take away this thing that has happened and then
• 1:20:00
  actually. Summer's shadow staying past the
• 1:20:03
  window and it's the scariest thing you could ever imagine.
• 1:20:06
  You never even see her. And this is the opposite.
• 1:20:09
  This is just saying this is this.
• 1:20:12
  I mean it again, it yes, it's illustrating pain and it's doing
• 1:20:15
  it very well. But there's structural things
• 1:20:20
  about it. Then there's like yeah, it did
• 1:20:21
  as he's jumping down into the water.
• 1:20:23
  And then we go into a fucking Sherlock mind palace and it's
• 1:20:26
  like I'm being so clever. Here are the cogs of this plot.
• 1:20:28
  This writer is so clever. Look what this writer has
• 1:20:30
  written. And and that takes me so far out
• 1:20:33
  of it. I don't want a story to tell me
• 1:20:35
  how clever its scriptwriter is. He does that all the time.
• 1:20:39
  The bit where he's popping back to the TARDIS and that's now his
• 1:20:41
  mind palace. Like put it in black and white
• 1:20:43
  or something because he's just didn't give us a tell us the
• 1:20:46
  story. OK, these are these.
• 1:20:48
  Clearly he's imagining he's in the TARDIS.
• 1:20:50
  But it just annoys me. The one that always makes me
• 1:20:53
  laugh is where he goes as bantium and he just makes me
• 1:20:56
  think of twin dilemma when he when he realizes that the
• 1:20:59
  insanium we know we're in trouble.
• 1:21:02
  It's like it's as bantium. I'm going to have to punch this
• 1:21:04
  for a billion years but he doesn't remember any of that
• 1:21:07
  anyway because it's a new version of him.
• 1:21:09
  So he only actually remembers the last cycle of it, which
• 1:21:12
  undermines. Yeah, he doesn't.
• 1:21:14
  Actually say that he remembers them all.
• 1:21:16
  Well, he changed it, it seems, yeah, but it just seems
• 1:21:20
  inconsistent because it's. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:21:22
  Yeah, so yeah, I'm a no. And the crawling cadaver bit.
• 1:21:29
  The Doctor Who is now a crawling, seething bloody
• 1:21:31
  cadaver. That's from thread.
• 1:21:33
  Have that in threads. Don't put that in Doctor Who.
• 1:21:36
  The crawling cadaver going up the stairs with blood dripping
• 1:21:39
  and behind him, that's the That's your kids hero, that is.
• 1:21:42
  That's that is too far. So Joe, we are over to you to
• 1:21:45
  Save Heaven sent the fans favorite Doctor episode of all
• 1:21:50
  time. Oh, I'm just going to say as a
• 1:21:51
  single rejoinder though, to what Pete said, all of those things
• 1:21:54
  he missed from this episode are the things that turn up in hell
• 1:21:57
  bent. It's true.
• 1:22:00
  Yeah, it's true. But also I think you could go
• 1:22:03
  from Face the Raven to Hell bent and just miss out Heaven sent.
• 1:22:09
  Have him bring you've got to have him building up those wells
• 1:22:12
  of determination in order to do he's.
• 1:22:14
  The Doctor. He's always determined it's
• 1:22:17
  Kara. Why would he does?
• 1:22:19
  I can't. Sorry, go on.
• 1:22:20
  Sorry but yeah I can't make the one criticism of other episodes
• 1:22:23
  in this series that I do with this one that it does show but
• 1:22:25
  it shows you it's other episodes.
• 1:22:27
  It does telling instead of showing.
• 1:22:28
  In this episode it shows you at 8 times.
• 1:22:33
  That's. Right, I want to ask you because
• 1:22:35
  I, rather cruelly and I need to apologise for it, suggested you
• 1:22:39
  have child cruelty earlier today for making oh sorry for allowing
• 1:22:43
  your child to watch series 9 with you.
• 1:22:45
  Did they enjoy Heaven Sent? Can I ask?
• 1:22:49
  Yes, although less than the other episodes.
• 1:22:53
  I can understand why, because my inner child is so bored watching
• 1:22:57
  this. He's just.
• 1:22:59
  His single word review of it was interesting.
• 1:23:02
  Oh, damning he. Said it.
• 1:23:06
  He said it with enthusiasm, so it wasn't a bad interesting, but
• 1:23:11
  he wasn't effusive about it and interesting was this one word
• 1:23:15
  review, so clearly he enjoyed it less than most of the others.
• 1:23:19
  But like I understand you said earlier, there's lots of
• 1:23:21
  different types of Doctor Who and that's a good thing.
• 1:23:23
  This type just is not for me at all.
• 1:23:26
  I like it loud and fast and funny and camp and colourful.
• 1:23:30
  But. What about Doctor Who?
• 1:23:32
  Well, yeah, time in the Ronnie, you know, see.
• 1:23:35
  I'm with you on that, but at the same time I also.
• 1:23:39
  So I like it when it's like that in general, But actually I think
• 1:23:43
  my favorite specific bits of it are when it's unlike that.
• 1:23:47
  And I think Steven Moffat does both things.
• 1:23:49
  I think the Matt Smith is colourful and daft and then I
• 1:23:52
  think the Capaldi digs into the characters.
• 1:23:56
  I think with heaven the scent. I think the reason why Heaven
• 1:23:58
  Scent wins the Dogs Who magazine poll this is because the people
• 1:24:03
  voting for it are those people still suffering from
• 1:24:06
  cancellation anxiety in 1989 who were embarrassed about, you
• 1:24:10
  know, the mid 80s and how camp it all got.
• 1:24:13
  And this is Doctor Who that they can actually put on in front of,
• 1:24:17
  you know, other boring people and say look, it's valid.
• 1:24:20
  It's our house, it's pretentious.
• 1:24:22
  Look at it, it looks pretty. It's also very, very boring,
• 1:24:26
  like most our house movies. Although I do think this is one
• 1:24:29
  of the most perfectly directed Doctor Who stories.
• 1:24:31
  Like, I think Rachel Toledo does everything she's asked to do.
• 1:24:35
  The lighting is beautiful, the framing of the shots is
• 1:24:37
  gorgeous. You know, there's some horror
• 1:24:39
  moments in there that are beautifully done, but there's no
• 1:24:43
  narrative. There's nothing going on in
• 1:24:44
  this. It's just an old man walking
• 1:24:46
  around a castle, and that's just not what I come to Doctor Who
• 1:24:48
  for. The biggest shock that I had
• 1:24:50
  when I did my commentary on it with Dylan and Luke was how
• 1:24:54
  stunned they were when they first watched it.
• 1:24:56
  So jumping off the sofa as they said, without punching the air,
• 1:25:00
  when they found out that this was actually not the first
• 1:25:03
  Doctor to do this, that he'd been doing it all these years,
• 1:25:05
  and I have. A good moment.
• 1:25:06
  No, I was just like, and how is that a startling revelation?
• 1:25:12
  So what is? Also, it's a copy of that.
• 1:25:14
  I haven't even been watching the fucking Doctor.
• 1:25:16
  I've been watching a copy of him this whole time.
• 1:25:19
  I don't. Know I'll tell you what though,
• 1:25:20
  that did validate something I've been saying for years.
• 1:25:23
  I've been saying for years and years and years that every time
• 1:25:27
  the crew of Star Trek beam back up for the state ship, their
• 1:25:31
  dead bodies are left behind on the planet and it's entirely new
• 1:25:34
  people who turn up into spaceship.
• 1:25:36
  They should be. How else?
• 1:25:37
  Clorous. Shouldn't they like different
• 1:25:39
  fragments each time with just a subtle continuity difference
• 1:25:42
  each time? That would work, Yeah.
• 1:25:45
  So I've I've not, I've. I can't talk about this ad
• 1:25:47
  nauseam in that other hamister episode.
• 1:25:48
  It's very dull and I understand why people really, really like
• 1:25:54
  this because it validates Doctor Who.
• 1:25:57
  But frankly, I do not need to have Doctor Who validated
• 1:25:59
  because I love it. So let's have more camp and less
• 1:26:03
  grief. So.
• 1:26:04
  Bin bin bin Bin four Way baby. Four way destruction of having
• 1:26:10
  some four way love for sleep. No more people will be
• 1:26:14
  cancelling us, Joe. Is this the plan you Maximum
• 1:26:19
  power strangers? And space people, you're trying
• 1:26:22
  to bring us. Down right, Pete, back to you
• 1:26:25
  for your second choice. Let's let's step back to No,
• 1:26:33
  actually, sorry, let's step forward.
• 1:26:34
  That was kind of, oh, I'm dithering hell bent.
• 1:26:37
  That's the next one, isn't it? Yeah, The thing is I've learnt
• 1:26:40
  the titles. I'm, I'm going to go with that
• 1:26:43
  one. It starts with that line been
• 1:26:47
  travelling and he says from time to time and that is the best
• 1:26:51
  line of dialogue Moffett has ever written.
• 1:26:52
  It's lovely in my opinion because it isn't showing off.
• 1:26:56
  It's really good and he I believe that he would say that.
• 1:27:01
  From then on, it's pretty much all downhill do.
• 1:27:05
  You like the first line and that's it.
• 1:27:07
  Don't worry Jr., you will have your say all right.
• 1:27:11
  We're back in his shed with his with him.
• 1:27:13
  Right. I'm sorry, but I did no one else
• 1:27:15
  think when that when a figure appears coming to see who it is,
• 1:27:21
  it it looks it it's John Hurt in drag.
• 1:27:24
  She looks so much like John Hurt.
• 1:27:26
  She's the she's the war nanny. And I think she's.
• 1:27:31
  Do not give big Finnish ideas. To be fair, it is the third part
• 1:27:35
  of the Barn Trilogy, so who else would you expect to see there
• 1:27:38
  but the ghost of John? When they did those DVD sets
• 1:27:41
  with very tenuous links, you could have the Barn Trilogy.
• 1:27:44
  Trilogy. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:27:46
  But this time Clara is no longer hiding under his bed to frighten
• 1:27:50
  him. That weirdness.
• 1:27:53
  Yeah, well. To be honest, this one leaves me
• 1:27:55
  thinking, right? Actually, Rascilon was quite
• 1:27:57
  reasonable, just wanting the Doctor to tell him about the
• 1:27:59
  bloody hybrid because it doesn't mean anything.
• 1:28:01
  Anyway, why did the Doctor spend a billion years refusing to say
• 1:28:04
  I don't know whether I'm the hybrid or not just because he
• 1:28:07
  was bluffing? Paradox.
• 1:28:08
  He's bluffing. No, we're not doing that again,
• 1:28:11
  are we? Sorry, I don't mean why did he
• 1:28:16
  do it. I mean why should I care that he
• 1:28:17
  did it? Because I'm sure the answer is
• 1:28:20
  in there when he says get off my planet.
• 1:28:23
  I just cringed to wrestle and oh, are you being cruel or just
• 1:28:31
  being cowardly? It's yeah.
• 1:28:33
  OK. You're quoting Terence Dix
• 1:28:35
  again, but he shoots when he shoots the Time Lord in the face
• 1:28:40
  to force him to regenerate, and it's just a little jokey moment.
• 1:28:42
  Eric Saywood would never have done that.
• 1:28:46
  And he. But.
• 1:28:47
  Wears his Tony Awards or whatever it is, not Tony's.
• 1:28:50
  What does Moffett keep winning at this time for?
• 1:28:52
  The Who goes who? Goes as a Hugo, Tony, whatever.
• 1:28:57
  The point of. That is to show how far the
• 1:28:59
  Doctor's gone, isn't it? Yeah, in fact, the whole of
• 1:29:02
  Fandom was waiting for the Doctor to turn up on Gallivray
• 1:29:05
  and start killing Time Lords to get Clara back.
• 1:29:08
  He kills one and the whole of Fandom goes you can't do that
• 1:29:11
  and. It's not like.
• 1:29:13
  You. Kill him.
• 1:29:14
  It's not like a doctor hasn't, you know?
• 1:29:16
  So he doesn't right twist necks and he's been a bad boy over the
• 1:29:21
  years. Now, Tony, Amelia is amazing.
• 1:29:24
  I want her to play Doctor Who. I wanted to play Servland.
• 1:29:26
  I wanted to play Avon. I wanted to play all of the
• 1:29:29
  literary greats, Robin Hood. I wanted to play all the
• 1:29:32
  literary greats of Doctor Who. And she's brilliant in her
• 1:29:34
  little character Bit in this, but when he shoots them and
• 1:29:38
  Jared sent her, she doesn't get to spend 2 hours having, oh, I'm
• 1:29:41
  having a regeneration crisis. I'll go and try on some funny
• 1:29:43
  costumes. That's what Time Lords do.
• 1:29:46
  We know this. But she's straight down to
• 1:29:47
  business, which I suppose is good.
• 1:29:49
  But you've got the horrible, awkward, ugly Moffett sexual
• 1:29:53
  jokes, I mean. Or gender.
• 1:29:55
  Not sex, as in shagging, but as in all I've been a man.
• 1:29:58
  How did I cope with that ego? And it's just.
• 1:30:00
  That's. Lame, in my opinion.
• 1:30:03
  Like do supposed to be clever? Do something clever?
• 1:30:05
  That's just obvious. Why is Gallifrey back?
• 1:30:10
  The Doctor says I didn't ask, which is a funny response, but
• 1:30:14
  doesn't answer why Gallifrey's back from the point of view of
• 1:30:17
  the viewers getting more memory wipes when the down scampering
• 1:30:22
  about with the hovering Time Lords and the monsters that it's
• 1:30:26
  good. But what would happen if an
• 1:30:28
  Angel touched her? Touched Clara?
• 1:30:30
  Because the Angels goes round and she sort of recoils from it,
• 1:30:35
  yeah, but in its plus proper TARDIS door noise when they
• 1:30:39
  opened the stolen Tardis's door, that's.
• 1:30:42
  Exacerbating plus one sound effect.
• 1:30:49
  I did that, but I jumped on down on the sofa cheering at that,
• 1:30:53
  Yeah, but then then my nose sort of just descended to swearing
• 1:30:58
  and it ends with Why does this matter?
• 1:31:02
  And and then he starts doing it, ends with him doing a
• 1:31:04
  regeneration. Speech, you know.
• 1:31:06
  It ends with him doing a regeneration speech.
• 1:31:08
  Never eat pears, never fuck a lasagna.
• 1:31:10
  I don't know what he's doing. It's.
• 1:31:12
  Just. To get it over and done with.
• 1:31:15
  It's only Clara, and that's my comments.
• 1:31:20
  Thank you for that very erudite. Is it going through, sorry?
• 1:31:24
  He doesn't get to vote on it, but the three of.
• 1:31:27
  Us. Yeah, that's true.
• 1:31:28
  That's true. Should we go to the comments?
• 1:31:31
  Oh, can I start? Oh, because I know the first
• 1:31:33
  one's positive. Go for it.
• 1:31:34
  It doesn't do what fans necessarily wanted, but it works
• 1:31:37
  on an emotional level that Doctor Who often misses.
• 1:31:40
  It's Moffett and Capaldi's ongoing love letter to the show.
• 1:31:43
  It's epic and intimate and near regeneration story.
• 1:31:47
  Does he mean a near perfect? No, it's not a regeneration.
• 1:31:50
  Story No. It's near to a regeneration
• 1:31:52
  story because it's almost a regeneration.
• 1:31:53
  He could. Regenerate at the end of it,
• 1:31:55
  Yeah. That would be logical.
• 1:31:56
  If it's got that vibe, yeah. And pointing forward to more
• 1:31:59
  adventures to come. I love it to paces.
• 1:32:02
  Jason Thompson says a terrible conclusion as it's literally a
• 1:32:06
  bunch of people standing around talking about the situation and
• 1:32:09
  we've already done look how far the Doctor will go for his
• 1:32:11
  companion in A Good Man Goes to War.
• 1:32:14
  It never worked for me because the Doctor has a confrontation
• 1:32:17
  with Clara where they explore how far, how he went too far.
• 1:32:20
  But he gets his memory wiped, so he's got no opportunity to learn
• 1:32:24
  and progress. Hold on to your hats, James H.
• 1:32:27
  The end of me, Clara. And thank God, somehow the ruins
• 1:32:31
  of Gallifrey are still around at the end of the universe, along
• 1:32:34
  with oxygen and gravity. No, me hasn't been waiting all
• 1:32:37
  that time. She just popped ahead and set up
• 1:32:39
  some chairs. The only good bit was the nods
• 1:32:42
  of the chase. The chase?
• 1:32:43
  Oh yeah, the Dyna going around. It does look a bit like the
• 1:32:46
  Yeah, it is. John Bensalia says it has some
• 1:32:49
  things in its favour. The location work is stunning.
• 1:32:52
  Capaldi is reliably good, but it throws away all that potential
• 1:32:55
  build up in the past two episodes.
• 1:32:57
  Clara inevitably isn't dead. Russelon and Monobrow are poor,
• 1:33:02
  and the shooting of the General is way off beam.
• 1:33:04
  This next comment makes me so sad, Darren lit roundels.
• 1:33:08
  My diminishing fanness was briefly tickled by the old
• 1:33:10
  TARDIS, even if the roundels were too small, making the door
• 1:33:14
  tiny. That's such a fanish thing,
• 1:33:16
  right? But the odd, entertaining set
• 1:33:18
  piece and nice visuals aside, all interest I had with Doctor
• 1:33:22
  Who narratively stopped here completely.
• 1:33:25
  Didn't we all just look at that door and keep thinking it's a
• 1:33:28
  little bit small? I know I did.
• 1:33:30
  Now I've got a life. I can't say noise it makes.
• 1:33:35
  I like the noise it makes. John R thanks, Pete, John Arnold
• 1:33:42
  said. I normally.
• 1:33:43
  Only make that noise at intimate moments, but.
• 1:33:45
  I really don't wish to know, John Arnold said, a smart
• 1:33:49
  deconstruction of the season finale, deliberately pointing
• 1:33:51
  out that just looking at the myth arc plot misses the point.
• 1:33:55
  The Matrix ghosts smartly symbolize how threadbare,
• 1:33:58
  Gallifree storylines are by this point.
• 1:34:01
  Michael Storm, while much maligned, is a fitting end to
• 1:34:04
  the season and the tumultuous Dr. Clara relationship.
• 1:34:08
  Ultimately, it is right that the Doctor loses his memories not
• 1:34:11
  only as karma for the memory rape of Donna, but also because
• 1:34:15
  it was the Doctor Who was the obsessive 1 to begin with back
• 1:34:18
  in 7B. The ambiguity of the hybrid arc
• 1:34:21
  is very effective. We have a number of explanations
• 1:34:23
  and theories, none of which are actually confirmed.
• 1:34:26
  The hybrid could only be Lady Me.
• 1:34:29
  Is it the Doctor and Clara or is it just a legend?
• 1:34:33
  Daniel Knight says a bit of a. Cure attack point though, right
• 1:34:38
  at the end of this episode after all the conversation about what
• 1:34:41
  the what the hybrid might be is over.
• 1:34:44
  We then get another couple of scenes and then Peter Capaldi
• 1:34:47
  just turns to Clara and says yes, I'm the hybrid.
• 1:34:50
  I mean, do people miss? That me?
• 1:34:54
  I asked that when we did the couple, what the hell was?
• 1:34:56
  It I think it's obvious, I know I will get it, Daniel Knight
• 1:35:00
  says. A bit of a cure.
• 1:35:01
  It's egg. With Moffett seemingly unable to
• 1:35:03
  decide what he wants this to be. Is it yet another goodbye story
• 1:35:06
  for Clara, or an epic Gallifrey story?
• 1:35:09
  Trying to be both? Just makes a sprawling mess.
• 1:35:11
  My heart sank when the shield had turned up at the end.
• 1:35:14
  Plus points. Calafre looks good.
• 1:35:16
  Ken Bones and Donald Sumpter are good value, but are written out
• 1:35:19
  too quickly. Keep it.
• 1:35:22
  Rush, Dummy. The Our penultimate comment.
• 1:35:24
  If you condense down everything I hate about the Moffett era,
• 1:35:27
  this would be the concentrated pace that you get.
• 1:35:31
  Characters and storylines I don't care about, Betrayed by
• 1:35:33
  people that do nothing for me. I'm not surprised to be wanted
• 1:35:37
  to ditch Capaldi after this mess.
• 1:35:38
  I'm Dan. Dan Hollingsworth summarizes.
• 1:35:43
  That's fine. Dan Holling with summarises.
• 1:35:44
  I think what Pete was saying, at least Clara and me bug it off
• 1:35:48
  together in that clunky plot twist, TARDIS saving us two
• 1:35:51
  doses of insufferableness. So Jr., I can see you are
• 1:35:58
  absolutely chomping at the bit because I think you have a
• 1:36:00
  particular leaning towards. I've been waiting for this all
• 1:36:04
  episode. I know I'm busting for a wee, so
• 1:36:06
  I'm going to keep this really. No, come.
• 1:36:10
  On. Besides, Rod's going to say
• 1:36:12
  everything that I need to say. And besides, the three of us are
• 1:36:14
  going to put it through. So, I mean, I'm irrelevant at
• 1:36:17
  this point, aren't I? OK, well, briefly then, fairly
• 1:36:22
  briefly. We talked earlier on, we
• 1:36:25
  mentioned earlier on about when Stephen Moffatt pulls the rug
• 1:36:28
  and about that particular way that he sometimes does it, where
• 1:36:31
  he entirely makes you believe that one thing is going to
• 1:36:35
  happen and then does something else instead.
• 1:36:38
  And how beautiful that is after the Pandorica Opens, The Big
• 1:36:42
  Bang. So the Pandorica Opens has got
• 1:36:44
  every monster ever from the history of Doctor Who.
• 1:36:48
  And The Big Bang is 3 people running, four people, three
• 1:36:52
  people running around a museum with a stone Dalek.
• 1:36:54
  Astonishing but brilliant and beautiful hell bent.
• 1:37:01
  He entirely makes you believe that that 4 billion years that
• 1:37:06
  the Doctor spent inside the confession dial is so that he
• 1:37:09
  can go to Gallifrey and leak vengeance when he gets there.
• 1:37:15
  And I'm afraid I think fandom built itself up so far expecting
• 1:37:20
  that that when that's not what happened, they all went well.
• 1:37:23
  Fuck that. But I am the person who, when my
• 1:37:28
  expectations are confounded, says, well, is what we got
• 1:37:33
  better than what I expected? Or worse than what I expected.
• 1:37:38
  And when I'm expecting 60 minutes of somebody wreaking
• 1:37:41
  vengeance, which I've got to say, I was never a fan of the
• 1:37:45
  Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sylvester Stallone movies in the
• 1:37:48
  80s. And Doctor Who's equivalent of
• 1:37:51
  that was not something I was especially looking forward to.
• 1:37:54
  We get there, and it turns out he spent those 4 1/2 billion
• 1:37:58
  years not building up to a point where he could wreak vengeance,
• 1:38:02
  but building up to a point where he was so determined, so
• 1:38:07
  determined to do something about what they had done.
• 1:38:11
  And the thing that he wanted to do wasn't a negative thing to
• 1:38:15
  put them in their place for doing it.
• 1:38:17
  The thing that he wanted to do was to bring back the person
• 1:38:21
  that he loved from the place where they never should have
• 1:38:24
  been because of these other people who had done it
• 1:38:27
  inadvertently. And it takes 4 1/2 billion years
• 1:38:31
  to get to the point where you're going to pull a gun on somebody
• 1:38:35
  and pull the trigger on a friend, because that's how bad
• 1:38:38
  things have got. That's how determined you are.
• 1:38:41
  That's how far you need to go to prove your point.
• 1:38:45
  And all this against the backdrop of the Doctor in the
• 1:38:49
  diner with Clara, and we as the viewer don't know which one of
• 1:38:52
  those remembers. And that whole sequence is about
• 1:38:56
  redressing the problems that fandom had had with the
• 1:39:00
  Catherine Tate thing, where she gets a memory robbed of her at
• 1:39:03
  the end of the story. This is the story where Clara
• 1:39:06
  chooses, and this is the thing. Fandom have this real issue with
• 1:39:13
  the point that Steven Moffat always brings his characters
• 1:39:17
  back from death. This is a character who doesn't
• 1:39:20
  want to be brought back from death and in the end.
• 1:39:24
  And yes, Steven Moffat pulls a happy ending out of the hat
• 1:39:28
  right at the very end. But in the end, she chooses
• 1:39:31
  death and she makes the Doctor go through this thing where
• 1:39:35
  death is the choice that she makes, and she gets to have the
• 1:39:38
  choice that she makes. And then he pulls A blinder at
• 1:39:41
  the end and gives us this beautiful moment where Clara, we
• 1:39:45
  spent a year. In fact, we spent three years
• 1:39:48
  because right from the very start she's dictating bells of
• 1:39:51
  Saint John. She dictates when the TARDIS is
• 1:39:54
  going to turn up to pick her up. In Cold War, she's the one who
• 1:39:58
  confronts the Ice Warrior in Nightmare and Silver.
• 1:40:01
  She's the one the Doctor says, you've got to go and take charge
• 1:40:04
  of these people now. This is your story now, right
• 1:40:07
  from the very start. Lara has been building up
• 1:40:11
  towards being the Doctor. Her entire journey has been I'm
• 1:40:15
  the fan who wants to be the Doctor.
• 1:40:18
  Let's see where that takes us. Right at the very end of the
• 1:40:21
  story, just when you think, oh she has chosen death, oh, she is
• 1:40:26
  going off. No, the ultimate message of this
• 1:40:29
  episode is to every one of those 7 million people, whatever it
• 1:40:34
  was watching, or globally, probably about 20 million people
• 1:40:37
  watching. The message that Steven Moffat
• 1:40:39
  sends out to every single one of those people is if you have a
• 1:40:42
  dream, if you want to be a better person, don't let other
• 1:40:46
  people tell you. Don't bother, You're not going
• 1:40:49
  to do it. His message is If you've got a
• 1:40:51
  dream, if you want to be a better person, go out there and
• 1:40:54
  fucking be that better person. And this is a brilliant,
• 1:40:58
  beautiful, the most surprised I've ever been by a Doctor Who
• 1:41:02
  episode. I watched it for the seventh
• 1:41:04
  time this week, and I was crying like a baby for the last 20
• 1:41:07
  minutes. It's a beautiful, beautiful
• 1:41:11
  piece of television. Shit, I wasn't as brief as I
• 1:41:14
  meant to be. We didn't expect you to be Jr.,
• 1:41:18
  Don't worry. Gorgeous, though.
• 1:41:19
  What a gorgeous defense. Show Do you want to go next?
• 1:41:24
  Yeah, I'll go next. Everything in my brain tells me
• 1:41:28
  to business because there's a lot of things I don't like about
• 1:41:31
  it. I do not like the the gallery
• 1:41:33
  scenes. I don't like, you know, can pass
• 1:41:36
  wrestle on play by Donald Sumter in a very, very bad performance.
• 1:41:40
  Very unconvincing, more bloody filters, brown filters over
• 1:41:45
  everything. It looks ugly in places.
• 1:41:48
  So the first, just for a second, yeah, there are some bits of
• 1:41:50
  this that are rubbish. The bits in this sort of down in
• 1:41:54
  the thing where you've got the slide, isn't that.
• 1:41:55
  Oh yeah. Rubbish.
• 1:41:57
  Can you see those people going along on the Segways in the
• 1:42:00
  background? It's very funny.
• 1:42:04
  Then he does that. Thing.
• 1:42:05
  But then he does that thing where Clara just says.
• 1:42:08
  And for this whole time I've been talking, you've been
• 1:42:10
  looking at me. And it just makes that whole
• 1:42:13
  sequence worthwhile. You're literally making my
• 1:42:15
  argument for me. Thank you.
• 1:42:17
  Because. Because that's the point.
• 1:42:18
  That's the point in the episode where I turn, but you know I do.
• 1:42:22
  And the sisterhood of calm prophecies of doom, all of that.
• 1:42:24
  That's all the the worst excesses of 80s Doctor Who.
• 1:42:28
  Lots of continuity, very boring. I don't like any of it.
• 1:42:31
  That point there, when they she actually stops him and says what
• 1:42:33
  the hell are you doing? Why are you doing this?
• 1:42:37
  And she makes him stop and listen, and all that bollocks
• 1:42:40
  just falls away then. And it becomes about two people
• 1:42:43
  for the second-half and two people that I've never really
• 1:42:47
  bought into for much of the run, because I just feel like I can
• 1:42:52
  see constructed characters rather than just characters in
• 1:42:57
  the 11th hour. A bit like Amy and Rory Moffett
• 1:43:00
  makes me believe in this pair, care about them.
• 1:43:03
  And actually, this is the point where I'm like, OK, can we go
• 1:43:05
  and have some adventures with these people now?
• 1:43:06
  Because they're quite nice. Yeah, it really, really turns
• 1:43:10
  the corner there. And, and I pretty much love the
• 1:43:12
  episode from that point on. Suddenly we've got that
• 1:43:15
  lightness to the show again that's been missing most of the
• 1:43:18
  season. Suddenly there's a lot of colour
• 1:43:20
  in the show again. It's almost like Moffett stepped
• 1:43:23
  through a door of that dusty old, you know, basement he's
• 1:43:27
  been in and out into the sunshine again.
• 1:43:29
  It's really nice. And the last 15 minutes, all the
• 1:43:32
  emotional beats really work. It's the best of the Doctor and
• 1:43:35
  Clara. It's the best of Capaldi and
• 1:43:37
  Coleman, and for that reason alone for for selling me on
• 1:43:41
  those characters and just making me feel something apart from
• 1:43:45
  angry and bored, which I've been for the rest of the season, I'm
• 1:43:49
  genuinely invested. At the end of the year I'm
• 1:43:51
  putting this through. I think the latter half of Hell
• 1:43:53
  Bent Up was slightly sort of romance by Luke Malloy and Dylan
• 1:43:58
  Reece when they were talking about it on my podcast.
• 1:44:00
  But then when I went back and watched it this week, they're
• 1:44:02
  right. This great stuff in this
• 1:44:04
  episode, it is subverting all of your expectations.
• 1:44:07
  It's doing it in an interesting way and it's just it just has
• 1:44:10
  good emotional beats. Let's keep it brilliant.
• 1:44:14
  At this point, at this point, can I just ask Pete, after that
• 1:44:18
  from Joe and that from me, would you still be binning this if you
• 1:44:21
  had to vote? Yeah, completely.
• 1:44:25
  It's first nothing. Everything.
• 1:44:28
  Morris Muffet. Just.
• 1:44:29
  Always drags up, just dragged up one more time.
• 1:44:33
  Don't. Invite Peter talking.
• 1:44:36
  Interesting because there are other.
• 1:44:37
  There've been other ones where you have swung me.
• 1:44:39
  So it's yeah. But this one, Yeah.
• 1:44:43
  No, I'd hate regeneration. Species that go on forever.
• 1:44:45
  And he does. One doesn't even bloody
• 1:44:46
  regenerate. You.
• 1:44:48
  Can't. You're not going to change my
• 1:44:49
  mind about that, you. Can swing with us, Pete.
• 1:44:52
  Anytime you like, right? I'm going to put this one
• 1:44:55
  through as well. So I think this is a superb
• 1:44:59
  episode. Hallelujah.
• 1:45:02
  So I love there's a really, really strong theme.
• 1:45:05
  I talked about it earlier about storytelling.
• 1:45:07
  Moffatt's got this thing about the nature and purpose and value
• 1:45:10
  of story in storytelling and he really maximizes in this story.
• 1:45:15
  So you you've got talk about the story of the hybrid, not
• 1:45:18
  necessarily what hybrid is, but the story of the hybrid and what
• 1:45:21
  that means Gallifrey. You've got the story of the
• 1:45:25
  Sliders and and what they told the Doctor and then what the
• 1:45:28
  story was built up about the Doctor as a result of that.
• 1:45:31
  You've got the story of why the Doctor ran away from Gallifrey
• 1:45:34
  in a stolen TARDIS. And actually we actually see
• 1:45:37
  that happen again here and to reinforce that you've got so
• 1:45:40
  many little meta teases to to the nature of the story actually
• 1:45:44
  of the program itself. So the Doctor plays Clara's
• 1:45:47
  theme, has music to remind him about Clara.
• 1:45:50
  You don't get much more metal than that.
• 1:45:52
  Has he been watching the rest of the season then?
• 1:45:54
  Probably. He's been loving it.
• 1:45:56
  You kept Clara. You're a nice four and a half.
• 1:45:59
  Four in years. We've done with that.
• 1:46:01
  We've done with that. You kept Clara in the diner,
• 1:46:05
  telling the Doctor oh, you love a good cliffhanger.
• 1:46:07
  She questions him whether the nature of the stories telling
• 1:46:10
  her is true. He talks about he comes from
• 1:46:12
  space Glasgow. He's referring back to the in
• 1:46:15
  joke that we just had in sleep No more.
• 1:46:18
  Pete, you mentioned the line that I think is lovely.
• 1:46:21
  Our healer asked the Doctor if he's being cruel or cowardly.
• 1:46:23
  You're right. Referencing good old Terrence.
• 1:46:25
  But then later, when he's lying on the floor, the Doctor tells
• 1:46:28
  Clara never to be either of those things.
• 1:46:31
  Howard tells him she loves his red velvet jacket because it
• 1:46:34
  makes him look Doctor Y, and at the end she gets to travel the
• 1:46:38
  long way round, just like the Doctor did in Day of the Doctor
• 1:46:41
  says. All these references to the
• 1:46:42
  history of the show, it's all wrapped up in the nature and
• 1:46:45
  value of storytelling. And for that alone I'd put it
• 1:46:48
  through. Second point is the hybrid.
• 1:46:51
  There's absolutely no doubt that the hybrid is the combination of
• 1:46:54
  the Doctor and Clara, two people who will go to any extreme for
• 1:46:58
  each other and therefore threaten potentially the the
• 1:47:01
  universe. And that's kind of in keeping
• 1:47:04
  with the show perk. We would have done anything for
• 1:47:06
  Joe. Tom would have done anything for
• 1:47:08
  Sarah McCoy, for Ace. I don't.
• 1:47:09
  Think the show would ever have gone here, though?
• 1:47:11
  Where? It wouldn't have.
• 1:47:12
  Doctor and Joe being friends in the TARDIS could shatter the
• 1:47:17
  entire universe. I.
• 1:47:18
  Mean it's not. They go he's got a gift of
• 1:47:21
  hyperbole. Isn't he?
• 1:47:24
  I think this is a natural conclusion to their story.
• 1:47:27
  But he's the Doctor. He doesn't have to watch his his
• 1:47:30
  friend die. She he saves her so that she can
• 1:47:32
  travel on and have more adventures.
• 1:47:34
  We're told that this was missus plan all the way along.
• 1:47:37
  This was her plan for Chaos was to bring them together to create
• 1:47:41
  the hybrid. That's really obvious in the
• 1:47:44
  dialogue. And can I also address this lazy
• 1:47:47
  criticism that, oh, Murphy can't leave his companions to die?
• 1:47:51
  I'd have some sympathy with that argument if it had been two
• 1:47:55
  years between Clara dying and then he brings her back.
• 1:47:58
  It's within three fucking episodes.
• 1:48:00
  This is Clara's story. She dies and then he saves her.
• 1:48:04
  She's not. The older.
• 1:48:05
  She's not dead. Why kill them?
• 1:48:08
  She's. Dead.
• 1:48:10
  She is dead in face the Raven. He then saves her and then she's
• 1:48:15
  going back to die at some point she she's not immortal.
• 1:48:19
  She has to go back to trap street at that point and die.
• 1:48:23
  That is written. That is written within time she.
• 1:48:25
  Has to die with a lion. She'll be fine.
• 1:48:29
  Oh yeah, but we're no. Because when in Twice Upon a
• 1:48:32
  Time when we see Clara in that story, that is the ghost of
• 1:48:36
  Clara who did go go back and did die.
• 1:48:39
  So Yabu sucks Pete Lambert. I've blotted that out.
• 1:48:42
  Also Bill as well Bill also is in Twice Upon a Time.
• 1:48:46
  Both Bill and Clara are dead. Are dead.
• 1:48:49
  Hurrah, we've got our first black lesbian character.
• 1:48:53
  Let's blow a fucking hole in her chest.
• 1:48:56
  What is he thinking? I mean, let's don't.
• 1:48:58
  Start on series 10. You've got enough.
• 1:49:02
  Bile to. Start.
• 1:49:03
  See, I've heard that criticism, and that criticism is
• 1:49:06
  invalidated by the fact that the previous year Clara gets a whole
• 1:49:10
  blown in her chest too. So it's not like he's singling
• 1:49:12
  out the black lesbian character to have a whole blown in her
• 1:49:15
  chest. Any lesbian, Not what he does.
• 1:49:17
  For the component in the chest, so.
• 1:49:22
  Absolutely. I'm putting it through.
• 1:49:24
  I'm not going to speak anymore, otherwise I'll get incandescent
• 1:49:26
  with rage. I'm very pleased though, because
• 1:49:28
  the three stories spoiler for later that I wanted to go
• 1:49:32
  through, that I was giving, have all gone through the rest of the
• 1:49:36
  episode. MOO as far as I'm concerned.
• 1:49:37
  So the last four I've got a lot to play for.
• 1:49:40
  OK, so Jr. is over to you for your second choice.
• 1:49:45
  OK, I'm going to do face the Raven and I am going to try and
• 1:49:52
  convince you because I know a lot of people like this.
• 1:49:55
  I'm going to try and convince you to get rid of the thing.
• 1:50:01
  OK, I have got three reasons and why not let's do it as three
• 1:50:04
  reasons because I realized I didn't do that with the first
• 1:50:06
  one, or at least I did, but I didn't delineate between the
• 1:50:09
  three reasons so you probably couldn't tell which reason was
• 1:50:11
  which. The first one.
• 1:50:12
  The first one of these is going to be quite frivolous.
• 1:50:14
  I just hate slow motion bits. Or I tell you what I hate.
• 1:50:20
  If I see a scene in a movie or ATV program, I like the the way
• 1:50:25
  the scene is constructed in sort of terms of the grammar of the
• 1:50:30
  photography to be consistent. And if they want to do something
• 1:50:34
  subjective. I think either that subjective
• 1:50:37
  thing should be throughout the entire scene or it should happen
• 1:50:41
  within the scene where you go into the subjective moment and
• 1:50:46
  then come back out of it. So for example, I like it.
• 1:50:50
  I mean, I'm not a huge fan of it, but I like, I dislike it
• 1:50:53
  less. If a scene will suddenly go
• 1:50:57
  fast, speed it up or slow down in the middle of the shot and
• 1:51:01
  then comes back out of it in the middle of the same shot.
• 1:51:05
  So as a viewer you go into the subjective experience with the
• 1:51:09
  character. I hate it when you're watching a
• 1:51:12
  scene and this, this shots in normal speed, this shots in
• 1:51:16
  normal speed, this shots in normal speed, this shots in slow
• 1:51:19
  motion, this shots in normal speed.
• 1:51:21
  Unlike, you are telling us that there are cameras watching this
• 1:51:25
  thing rather than showing us what the characters are feeling
• 1:51:29
  about what's happening. And so I hate slow motion and
• 1:51:32
  Face the Ravens got lots of egregious slow motion.
• 1:51:35
  I hate it for that. Now, what are the things I
• 1:51:39
  dislike if I don't dislike the episode, by the way?
• 1:51:42
  I don't think it's a terrible episode, but I think there are
• 1:51:45
  some terrible things about it. And these basically are the two
• 1:51:48
  terrible things. Trap Street.
• 1:51:50
  I think the Trap St. thing is a brilliant idea for a Doctor Who
• 1:51:55
  story, and it just kind of turns up and saying it's a trap street
• 1:51:59
  fight. For some reason, they say, oh,
• 1:52:01
  there's these aliens hiding in London.
• 1:52:03
  We don't know where they are. Could it be a warehouse?
• 1:52:05
  I don't know. Could it be in somebody's attic?
• 1:52:08
  I don't know. Could it be in a underground
• 1:52:10
  station that's not used anymore? I don't know.
• 1:52:13
  Oh, I know It must be a Trap St. And here's the Trap St.
• 1:52:18
  What? That was a that was an entire
• 1:52:20
  Doctor Who story that you did in about 6 minutes without making
• 1:52:24
  it remotely interesting, or without remotely engaging the
• 1:52:28
  viewer, or without even giving us your reasons for introducing
• 1:52:33
  that into the story. So that's a brilliant thing that
• 1:52:36
  this episode could have been, and it wasn't.
• 1:52:38
  It just, and there's lots of other contrivances like that all
• 1:52:42
  throughout the episode, where I just think that's just a
• 1:52:45
  contrivance to get us from A to B in the plot that didn't come
• 1:52:49
  naturally out of the characters or the stories.
• 1:52:51
  You just shove that in there because you thought, oh, that's
• 1:52:54
  an interesting idea and then you forgot to make the idea
• 1:52:57
  interesting. But the worst thing, the worst
• 1:53:00
  thing about Face the Raven is this.
• 1:53:03
  It's about this thing that happens to this character that
• 1:53:08
  means this character has to die. There's a countdown.
• 1:53:12
  This character has accepted this fate, whether willingly or not.
• 1:53:17
  And this countdown means this character has to die.
• 1:53:21
  And there's no two ways about it.
• 1:53:22
  There's a countdown. The character has to die.
• 1:53:26
  And then this guy called Rump, he says, oh, actually, actually
• 1:53:30
  there's two ways that you can survive the Quantum Shade.
• 1:53:35
  I mean, either the show, it's a tough episode, yeah, but it's
• 1:53:39
  not. This is the thing, I don't
• 1:53:40
  think. Stephen Hopper.
• 1:53:42
  But he's not. Yeah.
• 1:53:43
  Sarah Dollard. Blame him anyway, I.
• 1:53:45
  Don't think Stephen Offer would have done this, because he's too
• 1:53:48
  bad. So either the Shades master
• 1:53:50
  removes the chronolog, so that's one way you can do it.
• 1:53:53
  It can just be removed, or you can give it to someone else.
• 1:53:57
  So that's another way you could do it.
• 1:53:59
  Either somebody can take it from you, or you can give it away
• 1:54:02
  yourself. There's two ways you can remove
• 1:54:06
  the Chronologue. So how is that something to be
• 1:54:09
  afraid of? Because this character who's
• 1:54:13
  going to die is not going to die anymore.
• 1:54:15
  So. And so I think it comes back to
• 1:54:18
  show and tell, but from a slightly different angle.
• 1:54:21
  This is how I kind of see, show and tell.
• 1:54:23
  If you're going to tell us something, you have to show us
• 1:54:25
  that that thing's true. So if you tell us that Rigs,
• 1:54:28
  he's going to die because this thing is on his neck, you've got
• 1:54:31
  to show us that that's true. Otherwise, it's hard to really
• 1:54:35
  put your faith in that thing being true.
• 1:54:38
  And this is the bit where it gets egregious.
• 1:54:40
  They then put that thing on Clara, and then they say no,
• 1:54:45
  Clara can't pass it on and nobody can take it off Clara.
• 1:54:48
  But we've already seen a character having it taken from
• 1:54:52
  them, so we know that that shouldn't be true.
• 1:54:56
  But even if that was true, and this is the egregious bit, even
• 1:55:01
  if that was true, the doctor should be looking at that
• 1:55:05
  situation and should be. And this is, you know, two years
• 1:55:08
  after we got that bit with Paul McGann, right where he said 5
• 1:55:11
  minutes I can knit a cardigan, make a cup of tea, you know, and
• 1:55:16
  the sort of terrible regime on the happiness patrol or
• 1:55:20
  whatever. All these things I could do in 5
• 1:55:21
  minutes here. He's got, what is it, 979?
• 1:55:25
  He's got longer here than he had in the night of the Doctor.
• 1:55:29
  And he just says, oh bugger. And that the fact that the
• 1:55:37
  Doctor doesn't try and do something about it when he's
• 1:55:41
  already seen another character being successfully saved from
• 1:55:44
  it, I think is probably one of the worst moments in the entire
• 1:55:49
  history of the series. And so and so despite the fact
• 1:55:52
  that there's loads of good stuff and it's brilliantly acted and
• 1:55:55
  that last 10 minutes is absolutely heartbreaking.
• 1:55:58
  And the way I look at it is this, whatever happens to Clara
• 1:56:01
  afterwards in that moment, she and the Doctor both believe that
• 1:56:05
  this is her final moment. So the emotional truth of that
• 1:56:08
  episode is absolutely stunning. But it's got this bit where the
• 1:56:11
  Doctor just said whatever, and that is just fucking terrible.
• 1:56:15
  Do you know? I said, I said in an earlier
• 1:56:17
  strictly guest writers come on and they try to adopt the
• 1:56:22
  showrunner style and I think Sarah Dollard's trying to adopt.
• 1:56:26
  So she over complicates the story especially with the
• 1:56:30
  tattoos and all that everything you just explained there.
• 1:56:32
  Whereas, you know you could have just blown a red off, you know
• 1:56:34
  like something really simple that where you wouldn't have had
• 1:56:37
  that argument to make because because it was that simple in
• 1:56:40
  series 10 when she what's better?
• 1:56:43
  I'm loving it. I'd have the idea that if.
• 1:56:44
  Clara had had her head blown off in this episode of the Doctor
• 1:56:47
  and got her back just through the whole.
• 1:56:48
  They would have had that whole thing through.
• 1:56:49
  Hellman. She would have just been
• 1:56:51
  standing there with no head, but he still would.
• 1:56:53
  Have been playing, we wouldn't have had that touching moment in
• 1:56:55
  hell, Ben. She just.
• 1:56:57
  Oh, you've got no face. She could basically be.
• 1:57:00
  She could basically be the human version of handles where she
• 1:57:03
  just carries her head around. Oh.
• 1:57:07
  Man, I'd love to watch that version of Hell Ben.
• 1:57:10
  But in series 10, when she writes Thin Ice, she ditches all
• 1:57:14
  of that complexity and just does an atmospheric character tale.
• 1:57:17
  And it's great. So she learns.
• 1:57:22
  Should we go to the comments, Jason, do you need?
• 1:57:24
  To I've done it. Let's go.
• 1:57:26
  But you were wrong, Jr. You were wrong, Jason Thompson
• 1:57:29
  says. I would hold this in higher
• 1:57:31
  regard if it wasn't another Moffett.
• 1:57:33
  Kill him, then undo it. Story The doctor's reaction to
• 1:57:36
  Riggs of his baby is lovely, though.
• 1:57:38
  Of course, my had this really been the end for Clara, it would
• 1:57:40
  have been an all time classic. Excellent location work and a
• 1:57:43
  powerful climax. Would it be an all time classic
• 1:57:46
  just because Clara was dead? That's the yes, Gareth Bowley
• 1:57:51
  says. While not a great story, it did
• 1:57:53
  finally release us from the Clara Show.
• 1:57:55
  Well, there's a few comments on that.
• 1:57:56
  She's very divisive. John Benzali, Another strong
• 1:57:59
  episode and there's a genuine sense of doom with a killer
• 1:58:02
  ending. John Benzali, What's going on?
• 1:58:04
  That's this series mono. Brown Williams lets the side
• 1:58:06
  down, however. Michael Storm says just from the
• 1:58:09
  title alone you can deduce that a major character is going to
• 1:58:12
  snuff it, and it doesn't take a Romulus, Remus, or Adric to
• 1:58:15
  figure out it's going to be Clara.
• 1:58:17
  Her recklessness pays off in a suitable way as her own
• 1:58:20
  arrogance puts her in a situation she doesn't fully
• 1:58:23
  understand. Unfortunately, Lady Me still
• 1:58:26
  lacks the authority and presence to pull off what the script
• 1:58:29
  requires. Such an annoying name, me.
• 1:58:32
  Isn't it? So annoying James Age Doctor
• 1:58:35
  tries to do never Wear and Pratchett and misses the mark
• 1:58:38
  spectacularly. The death of Clara is completely
• 1:58:41
  undermined by the knowledge that Moffett lacks a spine and
• 1:58:44
  wouldn't kill a companion off. Daniel Knights Us Oh, it's short
• 1:58:47
  to rule. It's a kids show.
• 1:58:48
  Why are we wanting companions? Oh, shot was a classic.
• 1:58:53
  Oh. Catalina.
• 1:58:56
  You're just waiting for the new AI version of Katarina's death,
• 1:58:59
  aren't you? On blood and gore all over the
• 1:59:02
  screen. It does always come back to the
• 1:59:04
  same argument though. If you ain't going to kill her
• 1:59:05
  off, why are you killing her off?
• 1:59:06
  What's the point? It's.
• 1:59:07
  Dramatic. You want the drama.
• 1:59:10
  You want the drama but not the consequence.
• 1:59:13
  You get the consequence from the drama.
• 1:59:15
  Drama Bent. That's as empty as all of those
• 1:59:18
  false jeopardy cliffhangers. It's not because she does still
• 1:59:21
  die. She is still that point.
• 1:59:23
  She's not. The.
• 1:59:24
  Correct point that Jr. made in his argument was that Clara dies
• 1:59:28
  at that. Point She flies off in that
• 1:59:30
  diner with a lesbian. At the end, Dad.
• 1:59:32
  But that's before this. You know that she has to come
• 1:59:34
  back again and still die on Trap St.
• 1:59:37
  But as far as we're. Concerned it's after.
• 1:59:40
  This I mean, I've got to clean out my attic eventually.
• 1:59:44
  But, but, but he is so tooth and claw, the Doctor takes Rose back
• 1:59:48
  to meet Queen Victoria. Yes.
• 1:59:51
  But Rose is from 2005, Queen Victoria's dead.
• 1:59:55
  The Doctor takes Rose back to a time before Victoria died and
• 1:59:59
  Rose Vic. Yes.
• 2:00:01
  Hell Bent takes place before. But within, I understand what
• 2:00:05
  you're saying in a slightly condescending way.
• 2:00:09
  What? Happens within the season.
• 2:00:11
  Is that what happens in Hell Bent?
• 2:00:15
  Happens after Face the Raven. So in in terms of how the season
• 2:00:20
  is playing out, we leave Clara alive.
• 2:00:22
  He wants her to have a happy ending where she's alive.
• 2:00:24
  He can throw a one liner saying yeah, we're going to head back
• 2:00:27
  to that moment we had earlier in the season, but that's not what
• 2:00:30
  he wants and that's not what we want supposedly.
• 2:00:33
  She's going to die. Eventually.
• 2:00:34
  So is everyone. Her status has not changed,
• 2:00:37
  she's just living between 2 heartbeats now until the.
• 2:00:39
  Point and it will all be undone with a line anyway.
• 2:00:41
  And hang on, Pete Lambert, you were arguing.
• 2:00:43
  She was a mortal 5 minutes ago, so you can get off your
• 2:00:46
  pedestal. Well.
• 2:00:49
  Well, well, we're in the comments.
• 2:00:51
  Just go back to the comments, Daniel Knight says.
• 2:00:53
  Oh, a Shilder is back. Deep joy, Good to see Rigsy
• 2:00:57
  back, but here is a plot device rather than a character in his
• 2:01:00
  own right. Clara's death scene, death
• 2:01:03
  scene, everybody is memorable and not.
• 2:01:05
  Temporary death scene. And not just for the tight
• 2:01:08
  sweater. Daniel Knight, go and take a
• 2:01:11
  cold shower. I didn't expect that of you.
• 2:01:14
  Clever story. If we ignore the wood and Miss
• 2:01:16
  Williams, keep it. Melvin Penya I was so glad Ricky
• 2:01:20
  returned. The Trap St.
• 2:01:22
  The Trap St. Conceit is gorgeous and tailor
• 2:01:25
  made for Doctor Who. Sarah Dollard kicked arse and
• 2:01:27
  wrote down the names of the of the arses.
• 2:01:30
  She kicked in. Maybe the boldest and most
• 2:01:32
  audacious writer debut. Really the boldest and most
• 2:01:37
  audacious writer debut. Maybe if you compare it to
• 2:01:40
  Steven. Oh Oh no.
• 2:01:41
  Oh, I don't. Know.
• 2:01:44
  I think that's quite audacious. Yeah.
• 2:01:46
  Bold. Audacious.
• 2:01:47
  Yeah. OK.
• 2:01:48
  I'll take him over. Well, it's.
• 2:01:50
  A contextual word, yeah. Karen Litt, Randall says.
• 2:01:54
  I like the Trap St. concept. God, That's not easy to say is
• 2:01:57
  that. But there's some very stupid
• 2:01:59
  ideas, like a Cyberman running in fear from the Raven and
• 2:02:01
  having a wife was so sick of a Shielder.
• 2:02:05
  Great acting from the Leeds. An adequate episode with a
• 2:02:08
  powerful but indulgent ending. Penultimate comment John John
• 2:02:12
  Arnold channels the urban fantasy of never Wear into the
• 2:02:15
  tragedy this season and arguably Clara's whole story.
• 2:02:19
  Maybe too close to the Zycon 2 parter, given it's playing with
• 2:02:22
  a storyline about refugees. Again.
• 2:02:25
  Oh, more on that later and. Finally.
• 2:02:27
  Paul, Quinn says. Can I just ask at this point,
• 2:02:30
  who's John Arnold anyway? He's one of my husbands.
• 2:02:34
  Leave him alone, the. The Husbands of Joe Ford a new
• 2:02:37
  episode. Paul Quinn says love it.
• 2:02:41
  The storyline is intriguing. Coleman's the top of the game.
• 2:02:44
  Maisie Williams is still weak, but there's some nice hand in
• 2:02:47
  pocket acting. The final scenes are
• 2:02:49
  devastating. The last scene between Capaldi
• 2:02:51
  and Coleman is brilliantly performed.
• 2:02:53
  This is the climax of their doomed Love Not love story and
• 2:02:57
  it's utterly tragic. So.
• 2:03:01
  Hey. Yeah, I liked it on 1st watch
• 2:03:04
  because it amazed me by making me sad for Clara.
• 2:03:07
  I actually cared. I didn't think I would.
• 2:03:10
  I really did care when I was watching it.
• 2:03:12
  And that final scene between them is really really dramatic.
• 2:03:16
  What a brilliant final scene between them.
• 2:03:18
  It was the perfect final scene for the two of them.
• 2:03:21
  OK, I love Rigsby coming back. Yes, I am going to call him
• 2:03:25
  Rigby. My brain doesn't work.
• 2:03:27
  He's but yeah he's turned. What's what's the thing that the
• 2:03:30
  trope let's say fridging. He's just there to be a problem
• 2:03:34
  that everyone else has to solve. But because he's lovely and we
• 2:03:36
  care about him, uh, it it does succeed in that.
• 2:03:38
  Uh, keep an eye out. There's a favorite extra of mine
• 2:03:41
  as they're going as they approach Trap St. and they just
• 2:03:44
  find it. There's a there's a scene of a
• 2:03:47
  of a guy approaching behind them as they're talking and then it
• 2:03:50
  cuts and and we see the door and they carry on talking and then
• 2:03:52
  it cuts back and the same guy is approaching again.
• 2:03:55
  And I I legitimately thought, ah, that's the muffity thing.
• 2:03:58
  That's a that that's a person who's going to turn up to it.
• 2:04:00
  And it wasn't they just had the same extra walk past two lights
• 2:04:02
  with two consecutive shots. So there that was what Yeah.
• 2:04:06
  I. Literally right outside the
• 2:04:08
  building where they did the deep breath premiere, so it's
• 2:04:12
  probably an inside joke. Maybe it is.
• 2:04:15
  I love what someone just said about never wear that.
• 2:04:18
  Hadn't that I feel an idiot for not thinking of that, because
• 2:04:20
  that's that's a really nice comparison.
• 2:04:21
  It is what it's trying to do. Yeah, I don't know.
• 2:04:24
  The whole concept was a bit it kind of carries it off.
• 2:04:29
  But when Clara tells Rigsy to shut up, that's nasty.
• 2:04:32
  And why does the story need to make her death a punishment for
• 2:04:37
  being too much like the Doctor? Like, I mean, it's sort of
• 2:04:40
  dramatic. It's melodramatic.
• 2:04:41
  It's AI could see the drum dramatical heft of that you've
• 2:04:44
  flown too close to the sun. This is your punishment for it.
• 2:04:48
  But you don't. Make it look like a punishment
• 2:04:51
  so that they can pull the rabbit out of a hat and reward her in
• 2:04:54
  the end. This.
• 2:05:00
  Is. Just a.
• 2:05:01
  Chapter in a story with two chapters still to come.
• 2:05:05
  Though it is making us think it's the last chapter.
• 2:05:07
  That's the thing, and I would like it.
• 2:05:09
  I liked it when I thought it was the last chapter, and when it
• 2:05:12
  turned out to not be, I liked it less.
• 2:05:15
  Shall I tell you a funny story? Go for it.
• 2:05:17
  I was so this is not really to do with, but it's just popped
• 2:05:21
  into. My we're we're under running
• 2:05:22
  drastically. Yeah, as.
• 2:05:24
  Long as you can. Spin it out.
• 2:05:26
  Did I say 10? I should have said 11.
• 2:05:28
  Sorry. There was a lot of anticipation
• 2:05:30
  for this episode of Strictly. So I mean, let's give them their
• 2:05:33
  money's worth, right? So I'm a postman and I was on my
• 2:05:38
  round and I was walking past this house and I'd never had to
• 2:05:41
  knock on the door before, but they had a parcel, so I had to
• 2:05:43
  knock on the door. And as I approached the door I
• 2:05:46
  just sort of looked to my left Because you generally tend to
• 2:05:48
  try and assess whether there's people in the house if you're
• 2:05:51
  about to knock on the door. And sure enough, the telly was
• 2:05:53
  playing and it was heaven sent and the guy came to the door.
• 2:05:57
  He was a student. He was about 20, I guess.
• 2:06:00
  He came to the door. I said, oh, your parcel gave him
• 2:06:02
  his parcel. I said, Heaven sent.
• 2:06:04
  He said. Yeah, heaven sent, he said.
• 2:06:06
  I don't really like Stephen Moffitt, but I do like this
• 2:06:08
  episode, so I thought I'd watch it.
• 2:06:10
  I said, oh, you must go on and watch Hell Bent.
• 2:06:13
  It's so much better than you probably think it is.
• 2:06:15
  And he just shook his head and closed the door on me.
• 2:06:23
  Do you know what? I thought he was going to open
• 2:06:25
  the door and go. Thank God you've saved me.
• 2:06:26
  From that? Really.
• 2:06:27
  Episode. I've never been so happy to see
• 2:06:30
  the postman. Right.
• 2:06:33
  OK, face the Raven. You're both talking absolute
• 2:06:37
  scribble. I am putting this through.
• 2:06:41
  That means I'm the decider. Yeah, that.
• 2:06:42
  Means you're the Decider Raven impersonation I just did.
• 2:06:45
  But we saw what it was. Brilliant.
• 2:06:48
  No, don't Ravens Go? What is it?
• 2:06:50
  What is it they say in that episode in the series 10?
• 2:06:53
  Car, Car. They're.
• 2:06:54
  The rooks. Oh.
• 2:06:55
  God and each of the Light not crows.
• 2:06:59
  Shut up, Joe. Yeah, shut up Joe.
• 2:07:02
  So first of all, I think this is when you watch the first time.
• 2:07:05
  I think this is a brilliant rug pull.
• 2:07:08
  So we kind of led to believe that episode 10 is usually
• 2:07:12
  fairly frothy. In a 12 part series, it's
• 2:07:14
  usually light ahead of the kind of big, grand two-part finale,
• 2:07:19
  and we had no reason to believe otherwise here, particularly
• 2:07:22
  because this is written by a guest writer.
• 2:07:24
  It's not written by Moffett, it's written by Sarah Dollard.
• 2:07:26
  So you kind of don't think this is going to be a particularly
• 2:07:30
  big story or important to the arc.
• 2:07:32
  I think that's strengthened at the beginning when we meet
• 2:07:34
  Rigsby. I can't say Rigsby either.
• 2:07:36
  So Rigsby it is. We've only seen him once before.
• 2:07:39
  There's a real kind of jaunty tone to start with.
• 2:07:42
  Clara hanging out to the TARDIS and trying to find the trap.
• 2:07:44
  St. and musics. Quite playful and it all feels
• 2:07:47
  very light and sunny. You don't think anything
• 2:07:50
  particularly bad is going to happen here and I?
• 2:07:52
  Can check for a second there, of course.
• 2:07:54
  I don't think we've had any indication that Clara is a, you
• 2:07:57
  know, a danger junkie before this at all.
• 2:08:00
  It worked. She.
• 2:08:00
  Was a control freak last year. She was a control freak last
• 2:08:03
  year, and this year she's a Doctor Who.
• 2:08:05
  Companion. But now she's really throwing
• 2:08:07
  herself into it in very dangerous ways because we need
• 2:08:10
  that for the story to work. There are so many conversations
• 2:08:12
  throughout the series under the lake, for one, that we're about
• 2:08:14
  to come to Back in Your box, Ford.
• 2:08:17
  Flatline, yeah. Thank you, Doctor Catline.
• 2:08:20
  Series 8 Deep. Breath.
• 2:08:22
  Leaving, we talk about flatline. Please.
• 2:08:25
  Moving swiftly on. Deep Breath starts her story
• 2:08:28
  with the 12th Doctor with that great big scene at the end where
• 2:08:30
  the doctor says to her no, you're the Doctor now, you have
• 2:08:32
  to solve this. I'm vacated the room and leaves
• 2:08:35
  her to her own devices to solve the thing and she loves it,
• 2:08:39
  doesn't she? And what about Kill the Moon?
• 2:08:41
  But anyway, back to series 9. So I think it's, I think it's a
• 2:08:49
  great rug pull moment. Therefore, when we kind of get
• 2:08:51
  to the final ten episodes, final 10 minutes of the episode and
• 2:08:55
  realise that actually the stakes are incredibly high here and the
• 2:08:58
  Clara is facing death and we're expecting to get out of jail
• 2:09:01
  free card at this point. And I think it's really well
• 2:09:03
  directed. When the Raven flies towards and
• 2:09:06
  hits a body, the camera cuts away straight away and it takes
• 2:09:10
  a few seconds for it to come back.
• 2:09:12
  And it's only at that moment you see the black smoke coming out
• 2:09:14
  of her mouth, and at that point you know she is dead because she
• 2:09:17
  dies at that point. Until she does.
• 2:09:20
  Forever gone, forever very upsetting.
• 2:09:23
  Which is where we leave her at the end of the season.
• 2:09:26
  At the end of the episode. Correct.
• 2:09:28
  So I think it's a great rug pool, and I think it's a great
• 2:09:30
  example of Moffett hiding his intentions.
• 2:09:33
  I like the world building here. I like.
• 2:09:35
  Just at this point, asked what people thought about when the
• 2:09:38
  Doctor erased Catherine Tate's memory and said You must never
• 2:09:42
  see me, Remember Me, think of me ever again.
• 2:09:46
  Until the Christmas special. Until the end of time.
• 2:09:49
  Until loving Star Beast hates. Well, that's all right.
• 2:09:53
  That's Russell T Davis. You've got the Christmas special
• 2:09:55
  in between as well. Either.
• 2:09:57
  There is, There is this big thing, isn't it?
• 2:09:59
  If Russell T Davis does it, it's fine.
• 2:10:01
  If Steven Moffat does it, it's the worst thing you've ever
• 2:10:04
  seen. Absolutely.
• 2:10:05
  No, no, I'm consistent. I hated that too.
• 2:10:08
  Chris. Chibnall does it.
• 2:10:10
  The assassination. Chris Chibnall would never think
• 2:10:14
  of anything that clever. Come on, let's face it.
• 2:10:17
  So second reason, I really like the world building and the
• 2:10:21
  character here. I think Trap Street is very
• 2:10:23
  quickly established. I think the look of it is really
• 2:10:26
  lovely. It's quite sumptuous.
• 2:10:28
  I think you get the rules, you get the environment really
• 2:10:30
  quickly. It's a refugee camp for aliens,
• 2:10:33
  so you know, can't fail to resonate with people.
• 2:10:35
  Haven't been watching the news. Good value as well.
• 2:10:38
  Did you notice when it turned up in Riversong episode?
• 2:10:41
  Exactly the same street with just a bit of snow on it.
• 2:10:44
  Yeah, but had snow on it so no one noticed.
• 2:10:46
  It's all right. And it's a few months later, so
• 2:10:49
  it was about 3 weeks. Oh yeah.
• 2:10:54
  And lastly, I love the Doctor and Clara and this.
• 2:10:56
  I think they work really well. They act their socks off, start
• 2:11:00
  off with them riffing and having really great fun together.
• 2:11:03
  Yes, Clara is still wearing the Doctor.
• 2:11:05
  He makes that clear when she's hanging out the TARDIS.
• 2:11:07
  She's just overly she's almost got like a death wish at that
• 2:11:11
  point. And I think when she explains,
• 2:11:14
  when she takes the shade from Rigsy, I think she explains it
• 2:11:17
  really well because she's sounding or she's trying to
• 2:11:20
  sound as though she's confident and self assured.
• 2:11:22
  But she does it in such a way that you can tell she isn't
• 2:11:25
  completely confident. She's trying to.
• 2:11:27
  She's pretending to be the Doctor and I think she sells
• 2:11:29
  that really well. And then obviously we go to the
• 2:11:32
  final scenes with with Jenna Coleman and Peter Capaldi and I
• 2:11:35
  think they just act their socks off.
• 2:11:37
  I totally believe in it. I'm a blubbing mass.
• 2:11:41
  I love it. I think it's great.
• 2:11:42
  So I'm putting it through. Can I just confirm did Pete put
• 2:11:48
  it through or been it? I.
• 2:11:50
  Didn't know it. Yeah, I did.
• 2:11:51
  I bind it with reservations. I don't hate it, but I bind it
• 2:11:53
  anyway. So Joe's got the deciding vote.
• 2:11:58
  Not at the end of The End of Time, where David Tennant
• 2:12:01
  refused to die and we were all screaming at the screen.
• 2:12:04
  Get on with it and just die already.
• 2:12:07
  That's exactly how I felt at the end of Face The Raven.
• 2:12:10
  When Clara has enough time after her, you know the death squad
• 2:12:14
  sent after her to make 2 fucking speeches.
• 2:12:18
  That's because she's in slow motion.
• 2:12:20
  Oh, it takes forever. Honest to God.
• 2:12:22
  So that's that's gutted by the it's a problem in new Who that
• 2:12:26
  people just don't die. Jason Thompson said it didn't
• 2:12:28
  he, about the regenerations that you don't.
• 2:12:30
  You know, you have the death blow and then you've got enough
• 2:12:32
  time for 15 speeches before you go, because we're supposed to be
• 2:12:35
  blubbing by the end of the episode.
• 2:12:37
  And it's a big problem here. But another problem with that
• 2:12:39
  death is we've already had Clara on the front cover of Doctor Who
• 2:12:42
  Magazine in a waiter's outfit, so we know that she's not dead.
• 2:12:46
  So it's an entirely pointless exercise there as well.
• 2:12:49
  Oh, but the thing was, they were trying to.
• 2:12:52
  They're trying to suggest hint that that might be a splinter
• 2:12:55
  Clara. I think it was just a bowls up
• 2:12:58
  wasn't. It I think it.
• 2:13:00
  Probably was maybe. I was like, Oh my God, not only
• 2:13:03
  am I going through this agonisingly lengthy death scene,
• 2:13:07
  but none of it's relevant anyway.
• 2:13:09
  But I've got to be honest, I looked at the watch on my hand.
• 2:13:12
  I don't actually wear a watch on my hand, nor have I ever.
• 2:13:15
  I looked at the watch on my hand.
• 2:13:16
  It's not on your. Wrist.
• 2:13:17
  Your hand? No, it's.
• 2:13:18
  On your wrist, isn't it? Yeah, I guess so.
• 2:13:21
  I looked at the watch on my wrist at the end of face The
• 2:13:24
  Raven. And do you know what I said to
• 2:13:26
  myself? Oh, 120 minutes of Doctor Who
• 2:13:29
  still to go. That's how I knew that Clara.
• 2:13:34
  Exactly. Bloody pointless.
• 2:13:36
  I thought you were looking at your written.
• 2:13:38
  That was the secret signal that people have been going on too
• 2:13:40
  long. We had to hurry it up for this
• 2:13:41
  episode also. The big kids earlier and they
• 2:13:45
  just didn't land I'll. Be I'll be succinct then.
• 2:13:48
  Rigsy is very boring indeed. We learn that he's a baby daddy
• 2:13:52
  and he can spray and that's about it.
• 2:13:54
  He's very dull. There's really nothing to him.
• 2:13:57
  He's a nice guy. But I don't watch nice guys on
• 2:13:59
  Doctor. I want to watch for interesting
• 2:14:00
  people. That doesn't really work with
• 2:14:03
  Clara anyway, nevermind. So he's very boring, so I don't
• 2:14:05
  really care that he's in peril either.
• 2:14:07
  Maisie Williams failing to convince, as you know, an
• 2:14:09
  immortal once again. Yeah, it's it.
• 2:14:13
  It's an all a bit of nothing this.
• 2:14:15
  It has huge, huge consequences afterwards.
• 2:14:18
  So I can see why we go here, but I don't really like the
• 2:14:21
  execution of much of this at all, so I would like to be
• 2:14:24
  there. So face the Raven is the third
• 2:14:26
  to fall. OK, so.
• 2:14:29
  It is, no. Yeah, it's a surprise when it's
• 2:14:33
  a guest writer and suddenly Clara dies at the end of the
• 2:14:35
  episode. But shouldn't Morpha have
• 2:14:38
  written that himself? Yeah, it might have been one
• 2:14:41
  speechless. Wonder how much, how much of it
• 2:14:44
  was? Sort of.
• 2:14:46
  Prompted. Cold.
• 2:14:48
  Yeah, but notice how we're only avoiding We're all avoiding the
• 2:14:52
  Dalek and Zygon two parties. Well.
• 2:14:54
  We know how the voting's going to go.
• 2:14:57
  We are not avoiding them anymore because it's my turn and I am
• 2:15:01
  going for the Zycon 2 parter oh. Boy.
• 2:15:05
  So we've only got 2 parts left under the lake, the Daleks and
• 2:15:08
  the Zygons. So I'm going for Zygons.
• 2:15:10
  So let's start this so bommy is my first recommendation.
• 2:15:14
  So every sci-fi show has got an evil twin, double duplicates and
• 2:15:20
  by God, we've had enough of them in Doctor Who over the years,
• 2:15:22
  both classic and new. But I think they do some
• 2:15:26
  different and new things with that kind of idea and I think
• 2:15:28
  they do it very well. So when Bonnie first takes over
• 2:15:32
  Clara, I think that is is quite a clever bluff.
• 2:15:35
  We see Jana coming out of the the neighbour's flat.
• 2:15:38
  Her body language is slightly different.
• 2:15:41
  You think straight away, always something up.
• 2:15:42
  But then she speaks immediately to the doctor on the phone, and
• 2:15:44
  she's very natural. And I don't think you think
• 2:15:46
  about it anymore. We then see her interacting with
• 2:15:50
  unit investigating the the covens with with Jack.
• 2:15:54
  She wants to get more troops in. So they've got support against
• 2:15:57
  the the Zycon hords. So again I don't think we
• 2:16:00
  question at any point there that that Clara is not Clara.
• 2:16:04
  So then we work up to the great reveal and I think again as as I
• 2:16:08
  think Jr. you were saying earlier, you like it when you
• 2:16:10
  kind of just ahead of the audience before the reveal.
• 2:16:13
  I think Pete, sorry, I think it works really, really well here
• 2:16:17
  because you just kind of realise before Jack realises when Clara
• 2:16:22
  sees the real Clara inside the pod, you know something's up and
• 2:16:25
  I think Jenna's smile really sells that.
• 2:16:28
  Then in the second part, I think they do a really interesting and
• 2:16:31
  clever thing with the two duplicates.
• 2:16:33
  When we go into kind of the the dream state Clara, when she
• 2:16:36
  wakes up in a flat because you've no idea what's going on,
• 2:16:39
  and she squeezes out the black toothpaste and all the wording
• 2:16:42
  on the newspaper is wrong and the door, she can't get out the
• 2:16:45
  door. I think that's really
• 2:16:46
  interesting. And again you kind of realise
• 2:16:49
  that she's the dream state Clara, or she's in the pod just
• 2:16:52
  before the character realises. And I like the way she can then
• 2:16:55
  affect the the duplicate Bonnie by obviously she she gets her to
• 2:17:00
  text the Doctor and more importantly, she she switches
• 2:17:04
  around so that she doesn't fire the weapon directly at the
• 2:17:07
  Doctor's plane. And I love the confrontation
• 2:17:10
  between the two Clara, between Clara and Bonnie as well.
• 2:17:13
  And I think Jenna sells it really well.
• 2:17:15
  She differentiates those two characters incredibly well, and
• 2:17:18
  it works. Astonishing how compelling Jenna
• 2:17:21
  Coleman is whenever she's not playing our Clara.
• 2:17:24
  Is there? Yeah, Yeah, she is.
• 2:17:27
  She's really good in it. So my second recommendation for
• 2:17:30
  this is I love the Central. I think they present the Central
• 2:17:33
  dilemma really well. And I'm saying that because I
• 2:17:35
  like the fact we see different perspectives.
• 2:17:38
  It's not just black and white, it's not just goodies versus
• 2:17:40
  baddies. So we see the two AUS goods it.
• 2:17:42
  Is rose. It is black and.
• 2:17:44
  White. We see the two Ozgoods and they
• 2:17:47
  demonstrate the ambition of the peace arrangement.
• 2:17:49
  We see the Zygon who's masquerading as a police officer
• 2:17:52
  in New Mexico, and she really kind of engenders sympathy for
• 2:17:56
  the Zygons because she tells a story about the child, Zygon,
• 2:17:59
  that ran into the street that was attacked.
• 2:18:01
  So you get some sympathy for the Zygons.
• 2:18:04
  You've got that awful scene of the Zygon who's forcibly
• 2:18:08
  transformed by Bonnie and whose only way out in the shopping
• 2:18:11
  centre is to kill himself. So you see different sides of
• 2:18:14
  the argument. Not just marvellous tea time
• 2:18:17
  viewing for children there. But even though those are two
• 2:18:22
  recommendations, I am not going to put this through because I
• 2:18:26
  think it all goes horribly wrong.
• 2:18:29
  And I like this story before, but it was watching it this time
• 2:18:32
  and really kind of listening to it, I thought this is really
• 2:18:36
  wrong. I got carried away with the pace
• 2:18:37
  and energy of it before and I kind of quite like the the kind
• 2:18:40
  of Spooks type vibe. But listening to what's being
• 2:18:43
  said this time, this is really when I hit a war with this and
• 2:18:46
  thought this is wrong. So fundamentally, we believe the
• 2:18:50
  episode is striving to show that two races can live together side
• 2:18:53
  by side in peace, which is a great aspiration.
• 2:18:56
  However, Bonnie wants the Zygons to be normalized.
• 2:19:00
  She actually describes it as normalization, and she says that
• 2:19:03
  they're currently living in chains.
• 2:19:05
  And the Doctor attacks her for that and mocks her and says, you
• 2:19:09
  know, he takes the Mick out of her because she says it's not
• 2:19:11
  fair that they're having to live in hiding.
• 2:19:15
  So yeah, it's perfectly legitimate for them to seek
• 2:19:17
  peace and stop the Zygons faction from causing a war.
• 2:19:20
  But the only solution that our doctor is offering is that the
• 2:19:25
  Zygons have to lose their own identity, lose their own self
• 2:19:28
  worth and live a lie. And basically that doesn't
• 2:19:32
  compute with my version of the Doctor Who stands for people,
• 2:19:35
  whoever they are, on whatever they should be.
• 2:19:38
  It's like asking people, obviously there's a very strong
• 2:19:40
  kind of refugee allegory going on here.
• 2:19:43
  It's asking like saying to refugees, fine, but you've got
• 2:19:46
  to lose all your cultural identity or there's an LGBT
• 2:19:50
  reading on this. It's like saying, fine, you can
• 2:19:52
  be gay but get back in the closet and never speak about it.
• 2:19:55
  That is not what our doctor does.
• 2:19:57
  He stands for the little people. He stands for everybody and
• 2:20:00
  encouraged them to be the best that they can, not to hide
• 2:20:04
  themselves away. And Bonnie ends up taking the
• 2:20:07
  guise of Osgood, a white female, so she can fit in with the norm.
• 2:20:12
  And I just think that just flies against everything that Doctor
• 2:20:16
  Who stands for. And at that point it loses me.
• 2:20:19
  And for that reason, it's out. Is that not the aspiration
• 2:20:23
  though? Isn't the point of the episode
• 2:20:25
  that all of those things that you said are the aspiration, But
• 2:20:28
  the reality is these people aren't ready for this.
• 2:20:32
  It's the same point that gets made in the Hungry Earth, isn't
• 2:20:34
  it? But the Doctor Moxa and Moxa
• 2:20:37
  said, yeah, it's not fair, but he just, it's the way completely
• 2:20:40
  undermined. He doesn't say yes, I
• 2:20:42
  understand. How can I help you?
• 2:20:44
  What can we do to resolve it? He takes the piss out of it and
• 2:20:47
  says get back in your box, just, you know, just carry on, pretend
• 2:20:51
  it. I just think that's a horrible,
• 2:20:52
  horrible. Horrible.
• 2:20:53
  Lot more in that bizarrely celebrated final speech of his
• 2:20:57
  as well. But we'll get there.
• 2:20:59
  Yeah, so I can't put this one through.
• 2:21:02
  Should we go to the comments? I've lost my comments.
• 2:21:06
  Do you want to start? Joe Jason Thompson leaves a
• 2:21:08
  bitter taste in the mouth. Jenna does an excellent turn as
• 2:21:10
  both Clara and Bonnie, but it steps too close to actual things
• 2:21:13
  going on in the world to be enjoyable indeed, and isn't
• 2:21:17
  especially thought provoking. Even the Doctor's speech is
• 2:21:19
  derailed massively. When he switches it from War Is
• 2:21:22
  bad to effectively. I know more than you, so do what
• 2:21:26
  I say. Michael Storm says Doctor Who
• 2:21:28
  does Spooks and Jason Bourne and while it works, I think it's
• 2:21:31
  perhaps a little too unsubtle and near current socio political
• 2:21:35
  events to be comfortable or appropriate for a pre watershed
• 2:21:38
  Family fancy series. A shame we don't really get a
• 2:21:41
  sympathetic Zygon from the wrong side.
• 2:21:44
  I think we do a little bit a missed opportunity.
• 2:21:47
  Plus, if the Doctor has seen this happen X amount of times,
• 2:21:49
  how many innocent Zygons and humans have died?
• 2:21:53
  Your night. Despite featuring my favorite
• 2:21:55
  aliens, this is weirdly uninvolving, mainly down to the
• 2:21:58
  redesign, which is disappointing compared to the original.
• 2:22:00
  Rebecca Front is underused, but Jenas great is the villain, and
• 2:22:03
  Capaldi Speech is fantastic. Keep it.
• 2:22:06
  John Benzalia says the Zygons are nowhere near as effective as
• 2:22:09
  in the 1975 classic Doctor disco comedy is Pants.
• 2:22:13
  Kate's even more faceless than a chameleon, but this is actually
• 2:22:17
  a very good, gripping, fast-paced modern day thriller
• 2:22:20
  with an awesome performance from Peter Capaldi.
• 2:22:22
  What has John Benzalia been smoking?
• 2:22:25
  Well, I told you, you saw that cancellation anxiety.
• 2:22:28
  You can finally watch some Doctor Who.
• 2:22:30
  And also I believe the answer to your question is Benzalia and
• 2:22:33
  Hedges. It was worth it.
• 2:22:37
  Just fun. Thank God.
• 2:22:39
  James Lark. This cracking yarn properly
• 2:22:42
  exploits the qualities of the Zygons, looks incredible, has
• 2:22:45
  moments of real Jeopardy intention in the finest
• 2:22:48
  tradition of the Pertwee era Capaldi so clearly wants to
• 2:22:51
  channel, is clearly about something.
• 2:22:54
  It's a family show touching on big, relevant topics, and for
• 2:22:58
  all that the Doctor's speechifying is a bit packed, I
• 2:23:00
  think this is a pitch about just right for the audience.
• 2:23:03
  James H Says ends with millions of Zygons living on the Earth,
• 2:23:06
  Never mentioned again. Moffett clearly thinks we have
• 2:23:09
  no concept of memory already very bored of the Sonic
• 2:23:12
  sunglasses. Yes, there's that speech, but
• 2:23:15
  the rest is fairly average body double paranoia.
• 2:23:18
  Far. That speech, Darren.
• 2:23:20
  Lit roundels. I hate these new Who's slabs of
• 2:23:22
  rubber, but at least the voices were an improvement.
• 2:23:25
  All that truth or consequence is garbage.
• 2:23:28
  Unit deserves to be shut down. The Doctor's speech is pure
• 2:23:31
  blind idealism. One of the worst Capaldi
• 2:23:34
  stories. Utterly dire.
• 2:23:36
  John Arnold says some lovely set pieces and probably Coleman's
• 2:23:38
  best performance, but it's verging on the show's weakness
• 2:23:41
  that it's tough to comment on real world issues because it
• 2:23:44
  can't provide answers. Capaldi sells the hell out of
• 2:23:46
  that idealistic speech. Don Newsom totally misjudged.
• 2:23:50
  Just an empty story. And finally crashed, Dummy said
• 2:23:53
  if he messaging and Capaldi's worst performance.
• 2:23:56
  Ironically, Jenna's more likeable as Bonnie than she ever
• 2:23:59
  is. As Clara she is.
• 2:24:01
  She is. So Joe, your response?
• 2:24:05
  Oh, me. Oh, sorry.
• 2:24:05
  I didn't realize you were coming to me first.
• 2:24:07
  Go for it. God, I hate this.
• 2:24:09
  With a passion bordering on insanity.
• 2:24:12
  I used to quite like this. I don't know what I was smoking
• 2:24:15
  when I first watched this. I watched this and I was
• 2:24:17
  getting. I was messaging you, wasn't I
• 2:24:19
  going? I was getting angry watching.
• 2:24:21
  I was. I was.
• 2:24:22
  Defending it to that point and then I.
• 2:24:24
  Rewatched it. Oh my.
• 2:24:24
  God, so much. I don't know where to start.
• 2:24:26
  I've got 15 points, so I can't say them all.
• 2:24:28
  Doctor Disco the fucking electric guitar again.
• 2:24:32
  Hanging out in a playground in Sunny's chatting to little
• 2:24:34
  girls, the president of Earth. Lines like don't kill too many
• 2:24:39
  of them. I need someone to negotiate with
• 2:24:41
  the fact that he appears to be mocking real world politics
• 2:24:44
  throughout. It's just a hideous, hideous
• 2:24:48
  showing for the Capaldi Dr. Rubbery, unconvincing Saigon's
• 2:24:51
  with no menace at all, because they're clearly men in rubber
• 2:24:54
  suits and I don't know what those balls of fluff they turn
• 2:24:57
  people into are. But that lacks any kind of sort
• 2:25:01
  of it's just terrible. I don't like the real world
• 2:25:04
  intruding on Doctor Who like it does here.
• 2:25:06
  Hostages being executed, war-torn countries, Friends
• 2:25:10
  being turned to evil causes, undercover operatives, Soldiers
• 2:25:13
  advancing on a church. I watched Doctor Who to get away
• 2:25:15
  from this sort of shit. I don't want it round in my
• 2:25:18
  throat, in my escapism on the telly.
• 2:25:21
  I think killing off Jay Griffiths is unacceptable
• 2:25:23
  because I love Bugs with an absolute passion.
• 2:25:26
  So that's that's just not on. It's visually very boring.
• 2:25:31
  It's all Browns and Reds a lot. My eyes were just sliding off
• 2:25:35
  the screen as I was watching it. There's horrible map filters
• 2:25:38
  over everything in this story to try and make you think it's like
• 2:25:42
  overseas, but you know the idea is to make it look exotic.
• 2:25:45
  Planet of Fire managed it and the colours popped Rebecca from
• 2:25:50
  one note. Obnoxious, Undesirable bore Just
• 2:25:54
  a series of terrible, terrible judgements.
• 2:25:57
  This episode lifeless characters.
• 2:26:00
  I'm convincing Monsters Code is a fucking ISIS.
• 2:26:04
  I mean, it's just awful at the end.
• 2:26:06
  Like, thank God we haven't got Doctor Who in our political
• 2:26:09
  system right now that can sit down, you know, the the the West
• 2:26:12
  and the others and sit them down and say sit down and talk
• 2:26:15
  everybody. Simple solutions for hugely
• 2:26:20
  complex world issues. Doctor Who should just not be
• 2:26:23
  going there at all. Looks like a fucking idiot.
• 2:26:26
  I hate this. I hate this with all of my being
• 2:26:29
  been it. It's horrible.
• 2:26:32
  It's just like it's horrible. 2 parter.
• 2:26:34
  It's horrible. What?
• 2:26:36
  About odds good. No where are the question marks.
• 2:26:41
  You haven't even mentioned the. Scarf and all of that?
• 2:26:44
  No, thank you. It's just hideous, this.
• 2:26:47
  I'm so sorry. Please tell me I'm wrong.
• 2:26:49
  Jr. You might be the one that tells
• 2:26:51
  Joe that he's wrong. Are you?
• 2:26:54
  Well, I like it. I love it.
• 2:26:56
  I think it's. Great.
• 2:26:57
  I think it's the perfect intersection between enjoyable
• 2:26:59
  Doctor Who and message Doctor Who.
• 2:27:01
  And I think that I think the moral of the story is there are
• 2:27:05
  no answers. There's only Gray areas, and you
• 2:27:07
  do the best you can and you find the solutions that you've got.
• 2:27:10
  Yeah. But the Doctor?
• 2:27:12
  I'm going to have to jump in there.
• 2:27:14
  Jr. the doctor doesn't show that.
• 2:27:16
  He is absolutely adamant that his way is right.
• 2:27:19
  He doesn't sit down and say he doesn't give us that messaging.
• 2:27:22
  Does he hate soldiers this week or not?
• 2:27:24
  I can't remember. It chops and changes with.
• 2:27:26
  I don't think he does buy this one, but clearly he hates anyone
• 2:27:28
  who's slightly different. You've got to get with the get
• 2:27:31
  with the line and fit with the the norm.
• 2:27:35
  But that's performative. No, that's what.
• 2:27:37
  That's what the dialogue is saying.
• 2:27:40
  Yeah, but get over yourself. You're not going to.
• 2:27:42
  You can't live your actual life. You can't be normal or true to
• 2:27:45
  you. You've got to fit with the fit
• 2:27:48
  with the norm in all right, and if you.
• 2:27:50
  Go with yourself and let that's what.
• 2:27:52
  He says. Sorry, I'm getting it.
• 2:27:54
  I'm getting wound up by this one.
• 2:27:56
  OK, I I love the way that it's both expansive and intimate at
• 2:28:01
  the same time. So this is a story that tells a
• 2:28:05
  giant story through just a handful of intimate characters,
• 2:28:09
  but at the same time tells a giant story on a giant scale and
• 2:28:13
  then brings it down to just these intimate characters.
• 2:28:16
  I enjoy that. As I said, I think it's the
• 2:28:18
  perfect intersection between Message TV that understands that
• 2:28:23
  there aren't any black and white easy answers and that it just in
• 2:28:29
  a fun way. So I said I watched this whole
• 2:28:31
  series with a nine year old. He was utterly engaged with
• 2:28:34
  this. This was one of the ones I think
• 2:28:36
  he liked the best. And yeah, at the end, that is a
• 2:28:40
  performance. And he sort of puts the nail in
• 2:28:42
  it at the end, which is kind of a jokey line.
• 2:28:45
  And we've done this 15 times already.
• 2:28:47
  He puts the nail in it. There it that whole speech at
• 2:28:50
  the end is not Capaldi just being heartfelt.
• 2:28:55
  That is Capaldi performing for the other people in that room.
• 2:28:58
  So the bit where he comes back at Bonnie and he's nasty to her
• 2:29:03
  is because he wants to jolt her into realizing, you know, where
• 2:29:07
  she stands and that there are other people in that room who
• 2:29:10
  don't stand in that place. It's about understanding that
• 2:29:14
  there's that in order to find any kind of a solution, even if
• 2:29:19
  it's an imperfect one, you have to understand what empathy is.
• 2:29:23
  And so I think he's being performative and he's just so
• 2:29:28
  he's being performative and he's doing that performance in order
• 2:29:31
  to affect the people around him in ways that if he was just
• 2:29:35
  heartfelt and just did it straight, they would just laugh
• 2:29:38
  in his face. Well, I don't know.
• 2:29:40
  I think, I think it does do a lot of the things that you don't
• 2:29:44
  think it does. But I also think it's really
• 2:29:47
  easy to because it is so close to ISIS.
• 2:29:50
  And I think maybe that was a mistake, because I don't think
• 2:29:53
  it's about ISIS. I think that's just the
• 2:29:56
  coincidence. It's.
• 2:29:57
  Coded that way. Though or set it on.
• 2:29:59
  An alien planet and set it on an alien planet and then you don't
• 2:30:02
  need to have reasons for why. Yeah, yeah, aren't.
• 2:30:05
  There during the next 5 invasions of Earth to help us.
• 2:30:08
  But that's what I'm saying. That's probably its mistake.
• 2:30:11
  But it is a sequel today of the Doctor, and that was the
• 2:30:14
  starting point of it. So they didn't have the
• 2:30:16
  opportunity to do something else with it.
• 2:30:18
  So I I actually think they just told a really interesting story
• 2:30:22
  that doesn't have any answers and it literally says at the
• 2:30:25
  end, this is not a solution. We're going to be back here in
• 2:30:29
  12 months or whatever to do it for the 16th time and then for
• 2:30:32
  the 17th time it literally says there's no pat answers at the
• 2:30:36
  end, so. Isn't that slightly undermined
• 2:30:40
  them when the Doctor has the happy, happy scene with the two
• 2:30:42
  Osgoods and they go off, you know, dancing hand in hand into
• 2:30:45
  the sunset? But.
• 2:30:47
  He's one. It's.
• 2:30:47
  A bit under mind though he's. One of those victory, and that's
• 2:30:50
  your your prize for winning a small victory.
• 2:30:53
  He's getting back in I'll. Tell you one strength of this
• 2:30:55
  episode is is ambitious enough to go there and we're talking
• 2:30:59
  about it. Yeah, yeah, you know, this
• 2:31:01
  stuff. I mean Doctor Who's?
• 2:31:04
  I'd rather have Doctor Who. That starts a conversation and
• 2:31:07
  isn't great. That is to Steven Moffett, era
• 2:31:09
  you're just talking about there, you know, conversation.
• 2:31:12
  Stop Chris Chipnall. Yeah.
• 2:31:14
  I know that's conversation finishes.
• 2:31:16
  Stopper. Yeah, nobody watches them
• 2:31:18
  anyway. And also.
• 2:31:19
  But we've also proved as well that there are different ways of
• 2:31:23
  reading this different. Ways.
• 2:31:25
  Of understanding this and it affects all the viewers in
• 2:31:28
  different ways. So as long as the viewer is
• 2:31:30
  sitting there and they're getting something out of it,
• 2:31:33
  even if his anger. About.
• 2:31:35
  The. Situation maybe who you're
• 2:31:37
  talking about, but if you're. Angry about what this story says
• 2:31:41
  and does? Then maybe you'll be more
• 2:31:43
  empathetic in real life and. I do think there should be TV
• 2:31:47
  on. That makes me angry.
• 2:31:48
  That makes me want to talk about stuff.
• 2:31:50
  So yeah, I'm I'm half convinced, you know so.
• 2:31:54
  We're all putting it through now, right?
• 2:31:55
  None of that, Pete. You've got the deciding vote.
• 2:32:00
  Well, see, I think this has got quite a few ingredients in it
• 2:32:02
  that I like the the, I thought the Doctor with the two little
• 2:32:06
  girls being the the Zygon faction commanders was great.
• 2:32:11
  And you know we touched on that hints of remembrance of the
• 2:32:14
  dialects of the little girl that was controlling the dialects in
• 2:32:16
  that. And Jenna as Bonnie, is great
• 2:32:19
  because she's not having to play the most awesome person the
• 2:32:22
  Doctor's ever met in the universe, and that actually
• 2:32:24
  liberates her to give a performance that's got a spark
• 2:32:27
  to it that I don't think she can do as Clara because because of
• 2:32:30
  what Clara is. But yeah, we.
• 2:32:33
  Really doing Afghanistan and ISIS is that wise president of
• 2:32:38
  the world F that sky high. And I know it's done to to show
• 2:32:42
  that it's meant to not suit him. But I hate that so much.
• 2:32:46
  The Doctor is not that. Imagine William Hartnell's
• 2:32:48
  doctor being made president of the world.
• 2:32:51
  Yes, spinning in her grave. She didn't like him joining
• 2:32:57
  UNIT, never mind making him the president of the bloody world.
• 2:32:59
  And when that airship, when the rocket, when the ship does they
• 2:33:02
  get blown up. He goes and finds Osgood.
• 2:33:04
  They don't bother looking through the wreckage for the
• 2:33:05
  imagine there was a crew. They don't give a shit that is
• 2:33:08
  not chatting about other stuff. Harry Sullivan Nice to know that
• 2:33:12
  he spent his future developing gases to torture people with
• 2:33:17
  aliens with. No, that's a lie.
• 2:33:21
  That's the whole point of that is that it's a lie.
• 2:33:23
  Oh, it doesn't really. Exist.
• 2:33:25
  OK, yeah, I've forgotten. That in the same, in exactly the
• 2:33:28
  same way as the box is a lie. Everything the poison gas
• 2:33:32
  doesn't. The poison gas doesn't exist.
• 2:33:35
  But just OK. But even making me think.
• 2:33:37
  The implication that Harry could be Davros?
• 2:33:40
  No, I'm. Creating parlance for weapons.
• 2:33:43
  I thought, I suspect the idea of giving it Harry Sullivan's name
• 2:33:46
  is to sort of tip the wink a little bit to the audience.
• 2:33:48
  And OK, it was going to take our happy.
• 2:33:50
  Life. We're all far too stupid for
• 2:33:51
  that. And I'm too forgetful as well I
• 2:33:55
  am. Rebecca front is great in
• 2:33:57
  everything other than this. Yes, she got such a warm face
• 2:34:04
  and she's given these lines. Is she meant to be a heartless
• 2:34:06
  killer? The doctor treats her as if she
• 2:34:08
  is because she's a soldier, and there's one scene where he's
• 2:34:10
  hating soldiers. Doesn't she say Rebecca front?
• 2:34:14
  Doesn't she say, oh, I'll bomb anyone?
• 2:34:17
  Me. Yeah, I'm.
• 2:34:18
  Saying. What she should not.
• 2:34:21
  Be in the army. I've got to say that on the
• 2:34:25
  positive side, all of the main characters in this story are
• 2:34:28
  played by women. I.
• 2:34:30
  Don't see that in Doctor Who very often.
• 2:34:32
  One of them is Jay Griffiths as well, who's fabulous.
• 2:34:36
  And gets horribly murdered. Oh, don't remind me.
• 2:34:38
  Who's that? Which one's that?
• 2:34:40
  The one from Bart. You know, the new scientific
• 2:34:43
  advisor. Oh, right.
• 2:34:44
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 2:34:44
  Yeah. Sorry, I forgot her name.
• 2:34:45
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, she's really good.
• 2:34:46
  Yeah. He should have played the
• 2:34:49
  Rebecca Frum part. Yeah, because I would have.
• 2:34:52
  I could have believed because I need to believe.
• 2:34:54
  She's a bastard, that character, that soldier.
• 2:34:56
  It's really important that you believe she's a bit of a
• 2:34:58
  bastard. And and and Rebecca Front
• 2:34:59
  doesn't get time to convince me of that.
• 2:35:01
  It would have been like Jennifer Saunders and Don French playing
• 2:35:04
  glitz and diva. You wouldn't quite have believed
• 2:35:07
  it, would ya? That's yeah.
• 2:35:12
  Two comparison, 2 comparisons to Revelation of the Daleks.
• 2:35:15
  The scene with the soldier. Why is this The scene of the
• 2:35:18
  soldier and his mum? But it's not his mum.
• 2:35:20
  It's a Zygon and we're supposed to think that he's really And it
• 2:35:25
  doesn't. It's it's ugly.
• 2:35:26
  The comparison is with the scene in Revelation of the diets,
• 2:35:29
  right, Kill Me Child. But in that it's melodramatic
• 2:35:31
  and over the top and you can see her really wrestling with it and
• 2:35:34
  it really is her father in this we all know it isn't and it's
• 2:35:38
  just it's it feels like placeholder dialogue.
• 2:35:40
  It feels like a first draft. It's like they're going to go
• 2:35:42
  back and rewrite this to make us really believe it and and they
• 2:35:46
  don't. Hey, isn't the performance
• 2:35:48
  ghastly as well? I'm your mother and I.
• 2:35:51
  Love you. Just naff and the same thing
• 2:35:54
  happens. We have the shot the Zygon
• 2:35:56
  shopkeeper really disturbingly committing suicide in front of
• 2:36:00
  the doctor which reminded me of revelations scene with the
• 2:36:03
  mutant but even that had pathos in it and and sadness in it
• 2:36:08
  which whereas the the the scene in in this with the guy in the
• 2:36:11
  shop is just just just just nasty and and it's it's a
• 2:36:15
  different type of darkness it's that it's darkness without
• 2:36:17
  contrast and so it's yeah I don't know it's an ugly bland
• 2:36:21
  sort of darkness instead of over the top darkness and then the
• 2:36:27
  buttons and boxes and the long speech it goes on forever and
• 2:36:30
  yeah I mean it is a good point but it but it just feels
• 2:36:32
  laboured. So yeah I just think this just
• 2:36:35
  writes a check but it can't cash it Doctor Who cannot solve Isis.
• 2:36:41
  It's a bit like tortured miracle day and that.
• 2:36:44
  Yeah. In the same way that tortured
• 2:36:45
  couldn't solve immortality. Yeah.
• 2:36:48
  It's not it for me. It's it I'm.
• 2:36:49
  I'm not putting it through so it's.
• 2:36:51
  So Zycom's falls, So that's the 4th 1:00 to go.
• 2:36:56
  OK, so let's come to our final batch of listeners comments and
• 2:37:00
  let's start with who's who's going to kick us off?
• 2:37:04
  Me. Go for it.
• 2:37:07
  I mean, do you want me to literally do the kicking
• 2:37:09
  because. I think we've done enough of
• 2:37:11
  that tonight. He's.
• 2:37:12
  Owned it. He has owned it.
• 2:37:15
  Hound Wibbley says the biggest problem with 21st century Who is
• 2:37:19
  the increasing number of totally forgettable stories Old, who had
• 2:37:24
  some dull ones, but none that just seemed to be taking up
• 2:37:27
  airtime. Season 9 is a season of stories
• 2:37:30
  like that. Ian Banks says I drifted away
• 2:37:34
  from the show in Series 2 because it utilized all the
• 2:37:37
  tricks of modern television that I hate, so I became a casual
• 2:37:40
  viewer. Day of the Doctor got me excited
• 2:37:42
  again, but Series 9 turned me back into a proper fan.
• 2:37:47
  Paul Kresser says my goodwill towards the show was an was at
• 2:37:51
  an all time low after the previous season of the Doctor
• 2:37:55
  and Companion fighting to be the biggest nuts.
• 2:38:01
  I mean, I'm just a single door away from a nine year old, so
• 2:38:03
  that's where we're going. Should we?
• 2:38:06
  Should we go? We're just see you next Tuesday.
• 2:38:08
  Let. Me tell you a story, Not a
• 2:38:11
  story, but OK, The Cure did a single called Why Can't I Be
• 2:38:17
  You? And in the video for the single,
• 2:38:21
  there's five members of The Cure.
• 2:38:22
  There's 5 words in the title, so one of the men in the video for
• 2:38:27
  the story forms himself into the shape of a letter Y.
• 2:38:31
  For the word Y. One of them forms themselves
• 2:38:33
  into the shape of the letter I for the word I.
• 2:38:37
  One of them forms the letter B and one of them forms the letter
• 2:38:40
  U, and one of them wore a giant costume of a pair of.
• 2:38:45
  Huge red lips. They showed it on top of the
• 2:38:48
  Pops. For the word can't.
• 2:38:53
  Now that's the truth, right? That is.
• 2:38:55
  True. You can look that up.
• 2:38:57
  Watch the video. It is boggling and.
• 2:39:00
  This went out on Top of the Pops went.
• 2:39:02
  Out on Top of the Pops, they showed it on Top of the Pops.
• 2:39:07
  Oh yeah. Anyway, that.
• 2:39:08
  Was a long tweet. He's a piece.
• 2:39:09
  Of pork crust. Very long tweet, wouldn't it?
• 2:39:12
  He says although Capaldi tries to lighten the character here,
• 2:39:16
  it still doesn't land. A massive shame as I so wanted
• 2:39:19
  to like this Doctor. I feel it, Bongo Boy says.
• 2:39:24
  Most fans feeling things is. Better.
• 2:39:27
  Two guys they're up to every time.
• 2:39:29
  Bongo Boy says most fans don't seem to like the arc being more
• 2:39:32
  conceptual than physical, but the Doctor and Clara's toxic
• 2:39:36
  love for each other being the antagonist of the season, is so
• 2:39:39
  interesting to me. It's one element that makes it
• 2:39:42
  one of my favorite series. Paul Smythe says a disappointing
• 2:39:46
  series with only a couple of decent stories.
• 2:39:49
  While it was nice to have two parties and cliffhangers back,
• 2:39:52
  the second part of every story was a massive let down.
• 2:39:56
  Don't care much for Capaldi or those stupid Sonic sunglasses.
• 2:40:01
  Patrick Chapman says Heaven sense.
• 2:40:02
  Plus the one with the base under siege stroke water, plus the one
• 2:40:06
  with the Zygons, plus also the first one with Davros and Missy.
• 2:40:11
  And hold on, was that a cracking season?
• 2:40:13
  That was like, that was a cracking season of Doctor Who,
• 2:40:16
  wasn't it? You?
• 2:40:17
  Couldn't quite bring yourself to say it there.
• 2:40:19
  Could you please? I was saying it.
• 2:40:20
  Because I thought it was so hard.
• 2:40:22
  To not answer that question. What I thought was going on
• 2:40:24
  there was Pete's inner. Actual band.
• 2:40:28
  I was waiting for him to answer it.
• 2:40:30
  I'm like. I'm like Zygon Bonnie twitching.
• 2:40:33
  What? I'm.
• 2:40:35
  Showing brilliant. Series he's he's actually he's
• 2:40:38
  actually got a cigarette double in a box in the Cellar Sub
• 2:40:42
  Worth. Are there 20?
• 2:40:43
  Billion humans in or million humans in boxes because of all
• 2:40:46
  the Zygons? How?
• 2:40:47
  Where did the Zygons get their bodies from?
• 2:40:50
  So, you know, later in the episode it proved that they
• 2:40:52
  don't need to. They're explained.
• 2:40:54
  They're only putting the ones in the boxes.
• 2:40:56
  Who are the ones who might cause them trouble, right?
• 2:40:59
  I think. Sorry.
• 2:41:00
  Yeah, I think you're right. Daniel Rawnsley And that's why
• 2:41:03
  most of them have to go off abroad.
• 2:41:05
  So they're not in the same country as the person in Dublin,
• 2:41:07
  right? Daniel Rawnsley says a several
• 2:41:10
  course meal of stacked together two parts has really hurts the
• 2:41:13
  rewatch value. Every story is.
• 2:41:16
  This is true though every story is more juggernaut than jolly.
• 2:41:20
  And I think that's a fairpoint, and that's why I think Series 9,
• 2:41:23
  although I love the individual parts, I think all of it
• 2:41:27
  together is a bit of a stodgy meal anyway, he says.
• 2:41:30
  The doer, sometimes oppressively bleak tone sounds like Nirvana
• 2:41:34
  to us fans. But as I get older and the real
• 2:41:38
  world gets darker, the heaviness makes it a bigger chore to
• 2:41:41
  revisit than Kapal, these dark fairy tale first.
• 2:41:44
  I really agree with all of that. Michael Storm says the best
• 2:41:49
  Capaldi season by far, and possibly the best Muffet season,
• 2:41:53
  though Season 5 might still wear that crown.
• 2:41:56
  A darker, more melancholic and consistent tone runs through
• 2:41:59
  fitting what is essentially the Doctor having a midlife
• 2:42:02
  existential crisis. I think, hey, you're going to be
• 2:42:04
  having a midlife existential crisis having to read out all
• 2:42:07
  these positive comments. It's a tapestry.
• 2:42:13
  You know, that doesn't get bored up enough.
• 2:42:15
  This is the Doctor given a body that he wasn't expected to have.
• 2:42:18
  This is his new life crisis, and I think I really enjoy the fact
• 2:42:22
  that Steven Moffat digs into that.
• 2:42:24
  He obviously hadn't planned it because Matt Smith left a year
• 2:42:27
  earlier than he was supposed to, didn't he?
• 2:42:29
  Moffat was supposed to go with Matt Smith.
• 2:42:31
  He suddenly finds himself with this extra Doctor and says,
• 2:42:34
  right, what do you do? Decides to do the end of the
• 2:42:38
  regeneration cycle and tell the story of the first new Doctor
• 2:42:42
  and actually makes a thing of it.
• 2:42:43
  And I think that's a really interesting thing to do that I
• 2:42:47
  think most of the writers would have just ignored and just gone
• 2:42:50
  straight past really. But.
• 2:42:53
  The tank, the guitar, the glasses.
• 2:42:57
  He's certainly dressed up as a midlife crisis.
• 2:43:00
  And that's exactly the point he's had, he.
• 2:43:02
  Should have been. Why didn't he have the Why
• 2:43:03
  didn't he have the imagination to make Capaldi the youngest
• 2:43:06
  Doctor in spirit instead of going 0?
• 2:43:08
  He's old. Let's spend a year going on and
• 2:43:10
  on about how Clara doesn't fancy him anymore.
• 2:43:13
  But that's another. We rebook Pete for series 8.
• 2:43:19
  Oh, if you do. Steven Rhodes says Possibly my
• 2:43:26
  favorite season, not least because I just loved the
• 2:43:29
  relationship between the 12th Doctor and Clara.
• 2:43:32
  But not wild about the shrieky theme tune.
• 2:43:34
  Though yeah, the new titles didn't work at all.
• 2:43:37
  Who called it a bee trapped in a Theremin?
• 2:43:39
  I think it was someone on flight through entirety, Joe Short,
• 2:43:44
  final commenter, says. I seem to be one of the few who
• 2:43:47
  likes this. Probably the season I've
• 2:43:49
  rewatched the most. Not perfect, but not as bad as
• 2:43:52
  many say. Plus, perhaps the two parters
• 2:43:54
  don't work well and I fancy Peter Capaldi so nuts to Joe.
• 2:44:00
  Nuts to me. I fancy Peter Capaldi.
• 2:44:02
  What's she talking about? And Joe quite likes nuts anyway,
• 2:44:05
  so. That's not.
• 2:44:05
  Really. An insult.
• 2:44:07
  And also, when she's having you a pair of nuts, Joe?
• 2:44:10
  I can't really. See that?
• 2:44:11
  That's a problem. No, no, not at all.
• 2:44:13
  So. When there's a three parter of
• 2:44:16
  nuts that things get complicated.
• 2:44:18
  Well, yeah, enough about my personal life.
• 2:44:22
  In nuts about your personal. Life oh.
• 2:44:24
  Thank you. Thank you.
• 2:44:26
  It's getting like clearly the jokes getting worse.
• 2:44:32
  Joe, we are back to you. You have the choice of your
• 2:44:35
  favorite Magician's Apprentice 2 parter or Under the Lake 2
• 2:44:38
  parter. I'm not going to choose that
• 2:44:41
  Dalek 2 parter for love nor money, so I'm definitely going
• 2:44:45
  to choose Under the Lake and Before the Flood, which does
• 2:44:47
  have some good things in it. I think it's a perfectly
• 2:44:50
  competent 2 part Doctor Who story.
• 2:44:53
  Really. I don't really come to watch
• 2:44:55
  perfectly competent Doctor Who. I come to watch excellent Doctor
• 2:44:58
  Who and it's Hanford by the fact that it isn't The Impossible
• 2:45:01
  Planet, unfortunately, and so it's a similar set up.
• 2:45:05
  You've got the weird language that Doctor can't understand
• 2:45:07
  based on The Siege big mysteries and you know, lots of
• 2:45:10
  claustrophobia with a setting that isn't as well realized,
• 2:45:15
  with a bunch of characters that aren't as interesting or as well
• 2:45:18
  acted, with action that isn't as well staged, and with horror
• 2:45:22
  moments that aren't as scary. So I'm constantly making that
• 2:45:25
  comparison because they are kind of very similar stories,
• 2:45:27
  especially in the first half, and that does always Take Me Out
• 2:45:31
  of this. This is like this, sort of like
• 2:45:32
  the the Poundland version of The Impossible Planet, and so you
• 2:45:38
  have one called. Satan Pitt.
• 2:45:40
  That's the one. Yes, fabulous.
• 2:45:43
  And then I do find the second episode is very slow and very
• 2:45:47
  dull because I don't really care about bootstrap paradoxes and
• 2:45:50
  things like that. Like after I watched the
• 2:45:52
  episode, I still had to go on to Wikipedia to figure out what it
• 2:45:55
  was all about. So I'm just clearly very stupid.
• 2:45:59
  You've got a very generic claw in here I.
• 2:46:02
  Tell you what the mistake is, at the start of the second episode,
• 2:46:06
  they say to you, this is what we're going to do, and your
• 2:46:10
  brain is going Steven Moffat's storytellers, They're clearly
• 2:46:15
  not going to do what they said they were going to do.
• 2:46:17
  And then when they go ahead and do exactly what they said they
• 2:46:20
  were going to do, they're just staring at the television.
• 2:46:22
  Going my brain's not computing. No.
• 2:46:25
  The second in the Steven Moffat era, I'm directly addressed by
• 2:46:29
  any character. My brain just turns off because
• 2:46:31
  I know it's going to be smug as assholes, and it is.
• 2:46:35
  But. Also, no surprise it doesn't
• 2:46:37
  bother to surprise you. Nah, Whoa.
• 2:46:39
  Really does. If I'm honest, Clara's very
• 2:46:42
  generic in this. She is sort of just Doctor Who
• 2:46:45
  companion, which does make her more likable than usual, but
• 2:46:48
  still no more interesting. And the fucking filters.
• 2:46:52
  I've had enough of these bloody filters and everything, and when
• 2:46:55
  they go to the second episode, we're back in the 80s, this
• 2:46:58
  hideous sort of bluish filter over everything.
• 2:47:01
  And I'm so aware I'm watching television instead of just
• 2:47:04
  watching television. So yeah, didn't.
• 2:47:07
  You find it so much worse under RTD though, when instead of
• 2:47:10
  putting blue filters, they put filters on the lights and
• 2:47:12
  spilled blue light, red light. Because you know what?
• 2:47:15
  I'll. Tell you why that worked though,
• 2:47:17
  because the colours really popped.
• 2:47:18
  It was like watching 60s Star Trek, you know, the colours fly
• 2:47:22
  at you. So I'm just sort of, I embrace
• 2:47:24
  that. Whereas here it's just very,
• 2:47:27
  very dull looking. Yeah.
• 2:47:30
  So it's it's all right this, but all right?
• 2:47:34
  Isn't good enough when it's taken up two episodes in the
• 2:47:36
  season. I like warehouse generally, but
• 2:47:39
  I think this is a bit dull so I I don't want to put it through.
• 2:47:43
  OK. So let's go to the comments,
• 2:47:45
  Frank Band says in a very disappointing season.
• 2:47:48
  I only enjoyed Under the Lake but felt let down by the
• 2:47:51
  resolution with the Bootstrap. Paradox had Hope had hoped for a
• 2:47:54
  traditional base Under Siege monster story.
• 2:47:57
  Michael Storm A gourmet meal of Doctor Who.
• 2:48:00
  We have laid out on the menu a Trout and based on the siege
• 2:48:02
  story with a ghost story as the source.
• 2:48:06
  Add to that aside of Moffett, Johnny Morris, Tommy Wiminess
• 2:48:09
  and then top it off with a second, a second drawn.
• 2:48:13
  Second setting. A second setting drawn from the
• 2:48:16
  New Avengers episode target a satisfying delight on nearly
• 2:48:20
  every level. My only real issue, the
• 2:48:22
  mandatory serving of garden peas, to continue the meal
• 2:48:25
  analogy, is the realisation of the Fisher King.
• 2:48:27
  Oh yeah, forgot about him. Oh, he wobbles along.
• 2:48:30
  He comes out. It's very funny.
• 2:48:33
  James H says nice theme music. Shame about the patronizing
• 2:48:36
  Bootstrap paradox speech. Doctor Who's done them since the
• 2:48:39
  Hartnell days and never felt the need.
• 2:48:42
  That's aside, it's easily the best story of the series, though
• 2:48:44
  it borrows from the pirate planet for it's magic get out
• 2:48:47
  clause. James Lark, Proper old school
• 2:48:49
  claustrophobic Doctor Who with buckets of atmosphere, a creepy
• 2:48:52
  cliffhanger and a resolution that keeps you guessing.
• 2:48:55
  This is what we want from Doctor Who, surely.
• 2:48:57
  Clearly not me. Jim John Benzalia says Part one
• 2:49:02
  shows promise, a nice throwback to the classic Basin to Siege
• 2:49:05
  era with good well acted cast that for once feel like real
• 2:49:08
  people. Part 2 tends to put Moffett's
• 2:49:11
  usual tiny whiny tedium at the forefront, so loses a bit of
• 2:49:14
  focus. And Pin, full of mystery and
• 2:49:17
  atmosphere. And the underwater bases are
• 2:49:19
  superb. Set a likable supporting cast
• 2:49:22
  with a couple of Romans thrown in for good measure, with a
• 2:49:24
  genuine flet fret. Love the Doctor's prompt cards.
• 2:49:28
  Oh yeah, that is great, isn't it?
• 2:49:30
  Yeah. Darren Lit, Randall says.
• 2:49:31
  I like this one. I enjoyed the setting, It was
• 2:49:33
  probably creepy, and the characters were well defined.
• 2:49:36
  I hadn't been a fan of Wit House's scripts, but I like
• 2:49:38
  this. Part 2 isn't as good as part
• 2:49:40
  one, but still had moments. Probably my favorite to the
• 2:49:43
  series. John Arnold gets close to the
• 2:49:45
  Impossible Planet for the perfect bass under Siege
• 2:49:48
  template, but then the second-half rather goes up its
• 2:49:50
  own bootstrap paradox after one of the show's best teasers.
• 2:49:54
  Daniel Nice has a palate cleanser after the awful
• 2:49:57
  excesses of the previous story. Traditional bass Under Siege,
• 2:50:00
  totally directed and well cast, although it goes a bit pear
• 2:50:03
  shaped in the second-half. I also think Kapaldi's rock
• 2:50:06
  guitar theme should have replaced Murray Gold's Cat
• 2:50:09
  Screaming version. Keep.
• 2:50:10
  It. Jason Thompson Intriguing
• 2:50:14
  exploration of the Bootstrap Paradox and the Ghost visuals
• 2:50:17
  are certainly arresting, but overall it didn't leave any
• 2:50:20
  strong impressions. And finally, Tom Newson says far
• 2:50:23
  too complex a waste. Pete Jr.
• 2:50:29
  John Joe is not putting it through.
• 2:50:32
  I'll start that again. Joe is not putting it through.
• 2:50:35
  How do you feel about this one? Yeah.
• 2:50:38
  It doesn't like my light me up. It's got good moments.
• 2:50:41
  It's I like what it starts out trying to do.
• 2:50:43
  But then a few things start to me.
• 2:50:45
  There's the company man is such a cliche character, you know,
• 2:50:48
  he's going to die quite quickly. There's a woman and of course
• 2:50:52
  she's infatuated with the Doctor and the Doctor's celebrity, and
• 2:50:55
  it's just like in Sherlock and with Osgood.
• 2:50:59
  There has to be a female character who's simpering over
• 2:51:01
  the Doctor, and I'm so tired of that.
• 2:51:05
  The ghostiness is good. Cloister Bell going off in the
• 2:51:09
  TARDIS like it's just become like a reverse parking beeper.
• 2:51:12
  Now. It doesn't mean the end of the
• 2:51:13
  universe anymore. I noted during this one the real
• 2:51:17
  I felt a real absence of chemistry between the Doctor and
• 2:51:20
  Clara. They're just doing patter.
• 2:51:23
  It just. I just didn't.
• 2:51:25
  Why does he say I want to kiss it to death?
• 2:51:29
  Why does Doctor Who say that? Because it's a line for the
• 2:51:32
  trailer, even though it makes no sense in the.
• 2:51:36
  Trailer. It's purely it's full of them.
• 2:51:38
  It sounds great coming out of Capaldi, but what?
• 2:51:42
  Why is Doctor Who wanting to do that?
• 2:51:44
  It doesn't make sense. And then?
• 2:51:47
  And start Part 2. I'll put smoke talking to camera
• 2:51:50
  while annoying music plays. Please.
• 2:51:52
  We'll defend soon and the conclude my description of the
• 2:51:58
  ending is it's all just talking. This is a puzzle box, not a
• 2:52:01
  story, which is harsh. I I I was in a bad mood by the
• 2:52:04
  way, by that point but it put me in a bad mood.
• 2:52:06
  So although it's only just a no, it is a no.
• 2:52:10
  I love how your argument is like your thought process is while
• 2:52:13
  you're watching it, you know? Jr.
• 2:52:19
  So earlier on I mentioned that I used to write for Starburst
• 2:52:22
  magazine, and the good thing about that, one of the great
• 2:52:25
  things about that was you occasionally got to meet the
• 2:52:28
  people who write Doctor Who and actually Toby Warehouse,
• 2:52:31
  actually, Toby Warehouse, Chris Chibnall, Phil Ford, the
• 2:52:35
  loveliest people you could ever hope to meet.
• 2:52:38
  They really are astonishingly lovely people.
• 2:52:41
  Anyway, I was in a meeting at the start of the whole season
• 2:52:44
  nine thing, and Steven Moffat's in this sort of big throne on
• 2:52:48
  this raised bit at one end of the room and like right down at
• 2:52:51
  the very end, other end of the room, you've got Toby Warehouse,
• 2:52:55
  and you've got Jamie Matheson and you've got Sarah Dullard.
• 2:52:59
  And Steven Moffat says, look, he says, I want to tell a story
• 2:53:02
  this year. I want it to be a coherent
• 2:53:04
  story, and I want you all to go off and write a Steven Moffat
• 2:53:07
  episode. And Toby Warehouse was the only
• 2:53:09
  one who stood up. And he walked up to the front of
• 2:53:12
  the room and he got to the bottom of the steps and he took
• 2:53:16
  his wallet out of his pocket and he took a card out of his wallet
• 2:53:20
  and he showed it to Stephen Moffitt.
• 2:53:21
  And as I was standing there, as true as I was standing there,
• 2:53:24
  this really happened. And he held up this card and
• 2:53:27
  they have two words on it. Toby Warehouse.
• 2:53:30
  And he said, sorry Stephen, I'm not you.
• 2:53:33
  And Moffatt said I don't care. I want you all to write a
• 2:53:36
  Stephen Moffatt episode and fucking get isn't it?
• 2:53:40
  Because he went off and wrote a Stephen Moffatt episode instead
• 2:53:44
  of a Toby Warehouse episode. So whereas the Toby Warehouse
• 2:53:47
  episodes are great, this is shit is.
• 2:53:53
  He really on a frame. What?
• 2:53:55
  No, I mean that entire story up. Of course I did.
• 2:54:03
  You were telling the truth. No, my point is I can't
• 2:54:06
  understand why Toby Warehouse is trying to do all the things that
• 2:54:10
  Stephen Moffitt does really well and not doing any of the things
• 2:54:13
  that Toby Warehouse does really well.
• 2:54:15
  So some of it, some of the character stuff, some of the
• 2:54:18
  character stuff is really lovely, Some of the scary stuff
• 2:54:22
  is really scary. But all the Steven Moffat stuff,
• 2:54:26
  that there's this writing on the wall and actually the writing on
• 2:54:29
  the wall is what means whether you're going to be a ghost or
• 2:54:32
  not. But this twist just didn't work.
• 2:54:36
  None of the twists felt like twists.
• 2:54:38
  When Steven Moffat does it, it's a revelation.
• 2:54:41
  And your entire world is thrown into this state of, Oh my God,
• 2:54:46
  what's going on? When it happens in this?
• 2:54:48
  And it's like, oh, you looked at that writing on the wall.
• 2:54:51
  That means you're going to turn into a ghost.
• 2:54:52
  I'm just like does it What? They can't do it like him, can
• 2:54:57
  they? No.
• 2:54:57
  So I and that's I think that's probably the problem with face
• 2:55:00
  the Raven as well, right. So I think this this season
• 2:55:03
  probably is sort of metaphorically what I just said.
• 2:55:07
  Everybody's trying to do a Stephen Moffett and it's just
• 2:55:10
  not working. Some of them do it better than
• 2:55:12
  others. Who wrote?
• 2:55:13
  The girl who waited. I think that's the closest.
• 2:55:15
  Well, that girl who died, Matheson, I'm.
• 2:55:18
  Sorry, the girl, The Girl who lived is Catherine Catherine
• 2:55:21
  Chadika. Now the girl who waited, The one
• 2:55:24
  where older Amy dies at the end. Oh, sorry.
• 2:55:26
  Sorry, previously. Oh, he's from Ian.
• 2:55:29
  No, it's not right. He I think he gets the closest,
• 2:55:33
  I think. Yeah, but I think I can think
• 2:55:36
  Catherine to Jenna does a decent job because her episode The
• 2:55:39
  Woman Who Lived isn't a Moffat episode.
• 2:55:42
  That one is allowed to just be what it is.
• 2:55:45
  But I think Face The Raven and Under the Lake Before the Flood
• 2:55:48
  fail because they just want to be Stephen Mather episodes.
• 2:55:51
  They just don't get it. You win the whole episode for
• 2:55:54
  your fantasy Steven Moffat meeting.
• 2:55:56
  You know that we were, we were all gripped.
• 2:56:00
  OK, so. I've still got to speak on this
• 2:56:02
  one to us, even though you've all thrown it out.
• 2:56:05
  So it's completely superfluous while I say so.
• 2:56:07
  Thank you very much for that. But I was going to put it
• 2:56:10
  through because I quite like this story.
• 2:56:13
  I don't find it as egregious as you'd all.
• 2:56:14
  It was interesting. Both Joe and Pete were kind of
• 2:56:17
  you weren't violent in your attack on it.
• 2:56:20
  It was just kind of it was there.
• 2:56:22
  It was OK, but maybe not as good.
• 2:56:24
  I quite enjoy this one. I think it's got some new ideas
• 2:56:28
  in it, which I think he mixes quite well.
• 2:56:29
  Yes, you've got the traditional base on The Siege, but I like
• 2:56:32
  the story that he adds. On top of that, I like the
• 2:56:35
  plotting. So Part 2 is kind of the prequel
• 2:56:38
  to part one, but it's also the resolution.
• 2:56:41
  So it's kind of circular in the narrative the same way that the
• 2:56:43
  Bootstrap paradox is circular. I like that.
• 2:56:46
  So the story actually spell. Out to us as well at some point.
• 2:56:49
  Oh yeah, absolutely it is. It is what starts.
• 2:56:52
  But I I quite like it. I think the idea of starting
• 2:56:55
  with a alien funeral director taking a seemingly dead body to
• 2:56:59
  bury it, I think that's quite a nice idea.
• 2:57:02
  But the body is not dead. He's going to be resurrected and
• 2:57:05
  and plant a signal in the kind of electromagnetic forms of dead
• 2:57:08
  humans to form a homing beacon to get this race to come and
• 2:57:12
  find him. I think there's some really new
• 2:57:14
  interesting ideas in there and I like that.
• 2:57:16
  And then that obviously mixes them with our traditional base
• 2:57:19
  under Siege. So I think it's good that we've
• 2:57:21
  got old and new, which I enjoy. I think the characters on the
• 2:57:24
  base, I quite enjoy them. I think it's quite an
• 2:57:27
  interesting mix of people and personalities.
• 2:57:29
  I like that the commander is female and that she's deaf.
• 2:57:32
  We got blend of gender and ethnicity.
• 2:57:34
  You know about her. That's all you know about her.
• 2:57:36
  That's not enough. No, that's that's that is a fair
• 2:57:39
  point. Some of them are a little bit
• 2:57:43
  cardboard. I think, Pete, you made the
• 2:57:44
  point about Pritchard being a little bit on the nose as a kind
• 2:57:47
  of. Slimy, Who is Pritchard?
• 2:57:49
  I don't know who that is. He's the company man.
• 2:57:51
  You need to tell me though, right?
• 2:57:53
  Any character in The Impossible Planet I can tell you their back
• 2:57:56
  story. Yeah, OK, fair enough.
• 2:57:59
  I like. I think they're quite
• 2:58:00
  interesting. I enjoy watching them.
• 2:58:02
  I think they're well acted. I think they're interested.
• 2:58:04
  I like there's lots of twists and things aren't they seem so
• 2:58:06
  the ghosts aren't ghosts. The dead body isn't dead.
• 2:58:09
  The scary Undertaker turns out to be a Tivolian, so he's
• 2:58:12
  scared. He's scared and meek.
• 2:58:15
  The Ghost Doctor isn't the Doctor, but the hologram.
• 2:58:17
  Which we've already seen. So that's been well seeded.
• 2:58:20
  The list of the dead that the the Ghost Doctor recites is not
• 2:58:23
  actually a list of the dead. That's just a prompt to the
• 2:58:26
  Doctor to act. So I think there's lots of nice
• 2:58:28
  kind of things hidden in plain sight.
• 2:58:31
  And I I kind of enjoy those twists.
• 2:58:33
  And finally, I think the production design is good.
• 2:58:35
  I think the ghosts themselves are really well realized with
• 2:58:37
  the kind of fizzing outline around their body.
• 2:58:39
  And when they lean into a a like when the Doctor and Clara first
• 2:58:43
  arrive, they lean in, look like they're kind of smelling them,
• 2:58:46
  and they twist their heads. I think they're very well
• 2:58:48
  realized and Ghost Capaldi particularly looks quite scary.
• 2:58:52
  The sea bass I think looks really good.
• 2:58:54
  It's a good model outside, it's lovely inside, good big solid
• 2:58:57
  set. I love the water reflection on
• 2:58:59
  the on the floor. I love the fact that we've got
• 2:59:02
  night and day modes. My God, if we'd had that in
• 2:59:04
  worries of the deep, we might have been able to hide the
• 2:59:07
  mercury a little bit in night mode.
• 2:59:10
  I think it gives us different lighting and different flavor to
• 2:59:12
  the set. Fisher King, I think looks
• 2:59:14
  really good when he's standing talking to the Doctor.
• 2:59:17
  Maybe when he waddles on his stilettos afterwards, maybe he
• 2:59:20
  looks a little bit dodgy, A little bit 9 money there
• 2:59:23
  perhaps. They got him in the publicity
• 2:59:25
  shot in silhouette against Capaldi and.
• 2:59:28
  That looks fantastic. The second he starts moving all
• 2:59:30
  your games off, yeah. You know, there's a shed load of
• 2:59:34
  stuff missing from that. So they caught loads, apparently
• 2:59:39
  loads of stuff from that second episode, all the stuff that was
• 2:59:43
  back at the time of the Fisher King.
• 2:59:45
  And I don't. So does this whole thing isn't
• 2:59:47
  there where the Doctor goes back and then goes back even further,
• 2:59:50
  And that was supposed to be a thing.
• 2:59:52
  It's sort of like, I suppose a bootstrap paradox inside the
• 2:59:54
  bootstrap paradox. I think maybe that would have
• 2:59:57
  made it worth it. But for some reason they cut it
• 2:59:58
  all out I mean. It makes sense about.
• 3:00:00
  That at that meeting. Yeah, I did.
• 3:00:03
  Yeah, so in other words, you're talking bullshit.
• 3:00:05
  Together now. Thank you for that.
• 3:00:08
  Now this is true, this was the thing afterwards people couldn't
• 3:00:11
  work out because Paul Kay is quite a big name actor at this
• 3:00:15
  point. He was quite successful in
• 3:00:17
  America and actually he gets about, I mean he's a ghost for a
• 3:00:20
  fair bit of it, but non ghost wise he gets about two minutes
• 3:00:24
  screen time and apparently he had a shed load more.
• 3:00:29
  A bit like a bit like Stephen Berkoff, eh?
• 3:00:32
  Oh, nothing. Nothing's that bad, so I quite
• 3:00:35
  enjoy it. But clearly it's out, so it is
• 3:00:38
  our 4th one to fall. Can I ask you very quickly, were
• 3:00:42
  you so favourable about this just because that hideous Dalek
• 3:00:45
  2 parter was over? No, because we haven't got to
• 3:00:48
  that hideous. Dalek.
• 3:00:49
  Spoilers. Spoilers.
• 3:00:51
  That's to come in a minute. OK, so let's go to our final
• 3:00:55
  story, the glorious Dalek 2 parter opener Pete Small Jr.
• 3:01:01
  It's between you two guys who feels most passionate about
• 3:01:04
  wants to kick us off. Yeah, I'm happy to.
• 3:01:07
  I don't. I mean go.
• 3:01:08
  For it? No.
• 3:01:09
  What are you doing? Go.
• 3:01:11
  For it, Pete? No, they're going to.
• 3:01:13
  Play for it. Go for Pete.
• 3:01:15
  No, no, it's. Oh no.
• 3:01:15
  That means I can't vote. I.
• 3:01:17
  Know. It's decided now.
• 3:01:19
  It's too late. I've been telling you our
• 3:01:21
  episode. We'll knock it out in round 2GO
• 3:01:24
  on. I beg your pardon?
• 3:01:26
  Sorry. That's what I came to this
• 3:01:29
  podcast for. It starts off with Buffett
• 3:01:32
  revealing to us that he's decided the question that they
• 3:01:35
  decided to not answer in Genesis of the Dialects, very wisely, is
• 3:01:38
  a question that he's going to spend in two episodes going over
• 3:01:42
  Would you kill that baby? And the answer is going to be
• 3:01:44
  we're not really going to tell you because it's Doctor Who or
• 3:01:46
  the answer's no spoiler. The answer's no.
• 3:01:49
  It's the end of the Doctor's life.
• 3:01:51
  Yet again, after having actually died and regenerated and been
• 3:01:55
  the year before that, the whole thing was about the end of the
• 3:01:57
  Doctor's life. It's that again.
• 3:01:58
  Oh my God, he's on a sorry. These are meant to be bullet
• 3:02:01
  points. Oh my God, he's on a tank.
• 3:02:05
  He Everything about this is utterly excruciating.
• 3:02:09
  The dude the just just just not be happening on my screen.
• 3:02:16
  The Daleks have no way. They're just some robots that
• 3:02:19
  are there. They do nothing.
• 3:02:21
  That was it's such a waste of Daleks.
• 3:02:23
  But Muffet always just treats them as cogs in his cleverness.
• 3:02:29
  I do like the bit where sorry, I'm jumping a bit ahead.
• 3:02:33
  But when Clara is in the Dalek and the bit about hate powering
• 3:02:36
  the exterminations, that is as clever as people who say Moffett
• 3:02:39
  is clever think he is. He is that clever in that that
• 3:02:43
  is very clever and good. And I I like it.
• 3:02:45
  Basically, that's what matters. But locking Clara in a Dalek and
• 3:02:49
  not referencing Asylum of the Daleks is crazy.
• 3:02:52
  I didn't miss that today. They don't do.
• 3:02:55
  Yeah, yeah. They don't say it out loud, but
• 3:02:58
  yeah. No, but yeah, I mean, it's well,
• 3:03:00
  exactly. Yeah.
• 3:03:01
  I mean, we, they know that we know it.
• 3:03:02
  But I think it's strange that it's not addressed more vividly
• 3:03:07
  the worst. The.
• 3:03:08
  The. Pulling Dabros out of his
• 3:03:09
  wheelchair, leaving him screaming on the ground.
• 3:03:12
  What the hell? How and anyone can possibly put
• 3:03:15
  this through with that scene in it and also?
• 3:03:20
  What does anyone who's not immersed in Doctor Who law who
• 3:03:23
  is? If I wanted someone I worked
• 3:03:24
  with at the time, watched it, watched episode one, and was
• 3:03:27
  like so. Yeah, so who's this?
• 3:03:29
  Davros, why do we kept the doctors?
• 3:03:31
  The doctors just caught summoned him and like, oh, he's sorry
• 3:03:34
  he's summoned the Doctor. Who is he all right?
• 3:03:36
  He's something to do with the Daleks.
• 3:03:37
  He doesn't do anything. He doesn't do anything in the
• 3:03:40
  story. But the.
• 3:03:43
  Well, he doesn't have second part, but we'll come to that.
• 3:03:45
  Yeah, and if this is about a reaction to episode one, but
• 3:03:47
  even that way he opens his bloody eyes, doesn't he?
• 3:03:49
  Because they were just closed the whole time for no reason.
• 3:03:52
  But but. Surely the answer to that is
• 3:03:54
  he's somebody who has the power to summon a doctor and that's
• 3:03:57
  all you need to know. No, you need to care.
• 3:04:00
  You need to give a shit. Why do we?
• 3:04:02
  Why do we care? Because the doctor summoned and
• 3:04:06
  he convinces you that's in the acting.
• 3:04:08
  It takes him a long time to be summoned though, doesn't it?
• 3:04:11
  About half hour by Mara. Convinced.
• 3:04:13
  Me, I'm afraid the cup of. But the most annoying thing
• 3:04:16
  about this is the cup of tea. Joke like that is this.
• 3:04:21
  Here I am. I've got a cup of tea.
• 3:04:22
  I'm not going to answer it because I'm just like Sherlock
• 3:04:24
  and you don't need to know. You should be scared because
• 3:04:26
  this is written by someone so clever that he doesn't have to
• 3:04:29
  bother. He doesn't have to bother to
• 3:04:31
  actually think things through or or deliver things that are
• 3:04:33
  coherent. Because he's so.
• 3:04:35
  Clever, although he's got another Hugo.
• 3:04:37
  He just tripped over another Hugo Award, but he's finally
• 3:04:41
  lost it on this. One, he's a dream in sanitary
• 3:04:46
  the chair. Joke which is reused from Curse
• 3:04:50
  of the Fatal Death is Funny. And that's my that's my
• 3:04:56
  surmising of this story. Missy's great too.
• 3:04:58
  But why does why does Clara just sort of hang out with her And
• 3:05:01
  chilling out that she murdered your boyfriend a few weeks ago?
• 3:05:03
  You just but the scripts forgotten that because they're
• 3:05:05
  just doing banter which is good. Any like anything with Michelle
• 3:05:09
  Gomez doing banter is amazing. But but but why doesn't Clara?
• 3:05:14
  Why is Clara forgotten about Danny after bloody going on
• 3:05:17
  about him all so long? It's weird though, because, and
• 3:05:19
  this is no part of my criticism later, I just, I'm so confused
• 3:05:24
  as to how Missy went from being so scary and deaf in heaven.
• 3:05:27
  And now she's just a Batty mad on.
• 3:05:30
  There's just there's she's she's not scary with this at all.
• 3:05:34
  She's just making witty lines, throwing Clara down holes.
• 3:05:38
  She's not. Obedient to me?
• 3:05:40
  No, it's good to me. She's the Doctor's eccentric old
• 3:05:42
  mate. That's all she is now.
• 3:05:43
  Have. You crossed the comments I might
• 3:05:46
  oh, we're just on that point. Before you move that, I might be
• 3:05:50
  misunderstanding this, but it was my understanding that Missy
• 3:05:54
  was supposed to be the Shielder stroke me part in the last three
• 3:05:58
  episodes. But Michelle Gomez got ATV
• 3:06:01
  series in America and so that's why the Shielder part was
• 3:06:04
  expanded. I'm I might have got that wrong,
• 3:06:07
  but I but that's what's in my head.
• 3:06:09
  I thought it was just that Michelle Gomez was supposed to
• 3:06:13
  be at the end of Time instead of a Shielder in Hell Bent.
• 3:06:16
  So she was supposed to be in the chair, which is when she
• 3:06:19
  explains that it was her to put the Doctor and Clara together.
• 3:06:22
  So, but I might be wrong as well, but I thought it was just
• 3:06:24
  that final episode. But definitely was supposed to,
• 3:06:28
  Yeah, There was definitely a mirrored part where she could.
• 3:06:30
  Absolutely, yes, I'm. Wrong.
• 3:06:32
  Michelle Gomez is, by a mile, the best thing about this story.
• 3:06:35
  And it's always entertaining to watch, but the emphasis from
• 3:06:38
  Death in Heaven to this is completely different.
• 3:06:41
  But it's got to understand that for most people watching it,
• 3:06:44
  nine months have gone by and they've not given it a second
• 3:06:47
  thought since. So the fact that the characters
• 3:06:48
  are in different places is entirely appropriate for 99% of
• 3:06:52
  the audience. That's true.
• 3:06:54
  And that line she has where she goes, it's a pity.
• 3:06:57
  I was really quite peckish. It's hilarious.
• 3:07:00
  Yeah, she's funny, but. She does talk about Danny's
• 3:07:03
  death. I mean when she says, oh, how is
• 3:07:05
  your boyfriend? Still?
• 3:07:06
  Incredibly dead, I expect. But remember, remember when she
• 3:07:10
  murdered Osgood in Death in Heaven and she was terrified?
• 3:07:14
  That never happens again after that point.
• 3:07:17
  Let's let's go to the comments, Jason Thompson says he just, I
• 3:07:20
  guess I. Sorry.
• 3:07:23
  I think the point of that is if that happens at the end of a
• 3:07:26
  season, this is the start of a season.
• 3:07:29
  So this At this point, you're supposed to be taking things a
• 3:07:31
  bit more lightly, because if you'd have gone in that deep,
• 3:07:35
  that dark at the start of a season, this would have been
• 3:07:39
  even darker. She's still a bit like murdering
• 3:07:43
  a child at the beginning of series 6IN that cliffhanger.
• 3:07:46
  She is still a bit dove, for Christ's sake.
• 3:07:48
  She puts Clara in the in the chair and tries to get the
• 3:07:50
  Doctor to kill Clara. We don't like Clara.
• 3:07:53
  We're happy, that's. Really.
• 3:07:54
  Dark. She throws her down.
• 3:07:55
  That hole. If the I'm.
• 3:07:57
  Talking about totally. I'm talking about the tone
• 3:08:00
  rather than the actual actions. I'm talking about the tone.
• 3:08:03
  Let's go to the comments for about the 20th time.
• 3:08:06
  Oh, that's all you do. Jason Thompson says the opening
• 3:08:13
  scene is absolutely superb. The moment the boy reveals his
• 3:08:16
  name is Davros, my jaw hit the floor.
• 3:08:18
  What a wonderful premise, putting the doctor right into
• 3:08:21
  the moral dilemma he proposed in Genesis.
• 3:08:23
  But what a shame. It ended up being a story that
• 3:08:26
  wound up literally filling the screen with sewage.
• 3:08:28
  It's not sewage. The highlight is Julian Bleach.
• 3:08:32
  His portrayal of an old, tired Davros taking stock at the end
• 3:08:35
  of his life is compelling. It does look like Ronnie Poo
• 3:08:38
  though. Let's.
• 3:08:39
  But it's not. No, but it looks like it, but
• 3:08:42
  it's not serious. But they call it the sewer.
• 3:08:44
  Over and over. Yeah, but they also sue the
• 3:08:46
  sewer is the same word as graveyard, so why?
• 3:08:49
  Don't they just call it? The dead.
• 3:08:51
  Graveyards in. Because they don't want to say
• 3:08:53
  to kiddies, oh, these are dead, rotting bodies, decomposing
• 3:08:56
  bodies, that's, yeah. I suppose the lion your
• 3:08:58
  graveyards are revolting isn't quite as great, but we've
• 3:09:01
  already been there in Series A, haven't we?
• 3:09:04
  And so is the Daleks. Why would the Daleks call
• 3:09:06
  something graveyard? Why would they call something a
• 3:09:09
  sewer? Well, because it's where that
• 3:09:12
  waste goes. Their waste is not bodily waste,
• 3:09:15
  it's the Daleks that can't be used is their waste.
• 3:09:18
  So the sewer is where the waste goes.
• 3:09:21
  Security Kitchens. When do they have chefs?
• 3:09:25
  Who's. I think we're going off pasties
• 3:09:27
  getting right. But it does look like Pose.
• 3:09:30
  Let's be honest, James Log Yes, it has a week or second episode.
• 3:09:34
  No, Davros eyes aren't just closed.
• 3:09:36
  Yes, the Doctor is in in Davros. Chair is tasteless.
• 3:09:39
  No, I don't like the Poo. Apparently it's not Poo.
• 3:09:42
  But from the cold open to the reveal of Scaro to the call back
• 3:09:45
  to Tom Baker's Do I Have the Right Moment?
• 3:09:47
  This is a bravura size of television and hugely
• 3:09:51
  entertaining. It also gets to show's
• 3:09:53
  relationship with his past, right by making it part of the
• 3:09:55
  fabric of the storytelling. And Missy, who Tony for me never
• 3:10:00
  sat comfortably with. Whatever was going on in Series
• 3:10:02
  8 instantly works here. Well said, Paul, Quinn says.
• 3:10:07
  I hate snakes. So you'll imagine how much I
• 3:10:09
  loved colony SARS. I hate Segways, so you can
• 3:10:12
  imagine how much I hated colony SARS.
• 3:10:15
  And he's a really bad idea. He's Davros Nurse, but he also
• 3:10:18
  wants the Doctor. It's nice to have Gomez back,
• 3:10:20
  and she interacts well with Coleman.
• 3:10:22
  Bleach is still an excellent Davros, and the scenes with
• 3:10:25
  young Davros are very good, but the good stuff is undercut by
• 3:10:28
  crap like Davros opening his eyes.
• 3:10:30
  And worst of all, Davros writing on the floor, sands, legs and
• 3:10:34
  chair. I mean, we'll just keep coming
• 3:10:36
  back to that scene, won't we? Michael Storm, a strong season
• 3:10:39
  opener bringing the Could You Kill That Child moment from
• 3:10:42
  Genesis into reality. The Missy Clara dynamic is
• 3:10:45
  interesting, and it's a shame it isn't utilized more across the
• 3:10:48
  season. Actually, that's true.
• 3:10:49
  Moff understands the Doctor Master a lot better than RTD or
• 3:10:53
  Chippers. Wrong, drawing a lot of Missy
• 3:10:56
  characterization from their lost and damaged friendship.
• 3:10:59
  Daniel Knight said Moffett takes a lot of crowd pleasing
• 3:11:01
  elements. Daleks, Davros, eunit.
• 3:11:03
  Missy mixes them up and vomits them into an unholy mess.
• 3:11:07
  This is absolutely awful, Smug, unfunny, complacent and badly
• 3:11:11
  written. The Doctor chucking Davros out
• 3:11:13
  of his chair is unforgivable, as is the I Am the Doctor.
• 3:11:17
  Just accept it. Line, it's utter bollocks.
• 3:11:19
  He can, He can say unholy. He's a man of the cloth as well
• 3:11:23
  he can. Also say bollocks by the sound
• 3:11:24
  of it. Absolutely.
• 3:11:26
  He can flirt pretty well too. You know, John Arnold?
• 3:11:28
  Spectacular but messy. Almost.
• 3:11:30
  One of those freewheeling Doctor Who Magazine comic strips,
• 3:11:34
  Capaldi on the tank is properly great.
• 3:11:37
  Wow. An out of date rocker of a
• 3:11:39
  doctor clinging on to what used to be cool do.
• 3:11:42
  You want to divorce your husband?
• 3:11:44
  No, never. He's so pretty.
• 3:11:46
  James H says the Doctor rips Davros out of his chair and then
• 3:11:49
  somehow sits in it to mock him and the Daleks.
• 3:11:52
  This is the moment Moffatt should have been fired, Daleks
• 3:11:55
  casing that somehow fit clower inside despite what we saw last
• 3:11:58
  season. Remember a few series back when
• 3:12:00
  the Doctor was told to lay low? Now even eunuch can trace him
• 3:12:04
  partying in the past, Davros opening his eyes.
• 3:12:07
  I'm just telling myself this was a clone Davros and not even the
• 3:12:10
  real scaro. Even the prologues online were
• 3:12:13
  shite. David Gillespie Pratt A
• 3:12:15
  continuity fest that puts Attack of the Cybermen to shame.
• 3:12:18
  And the decisions with Davros, frankly, are hilarious and
• 3:12:21
  offensive in equal measures. Darren lit, Randall says, Also
• 3:12:25
  known as the shit of the Daleks. It's not shit.
• 3:12:28
  A creepy opening scene with hand mines which don't feel
• 3:12:31
  Scarosian, but it quickly lost my interest.
• 3:12:34
  Useless unit turned up, there was no flow.
• 3:12:36
  Only the Skyro design call back sparked any interest.
• 3:12:41
  Aaron Bowley The word Turgis doesn't do it justice.
• 3:12:44
  Crushed dummy said like a John Peel.
• 3:12:46
  Previous Doctor Adventure come to life?
• 3:12:49
  And John Bensale, who's been very complimentary about the
• 3:12:52
  season? Not usually says could have been
• 3:12:54
  and should have been trimmed to A1 parter.
• 3:12:57
  Even more flabby than my reflection.
• 3:12:59
  Oh dear. Missy is cringe and behaves like
• 3:13:02
  a pissed up onto you at a wedding.
• 3:13:04
  Discuss just what I was saying earlier.
• 3:13:07
  So yeah. But we liked that fact.
• 3:13:11
  So Pete is clearly putting through The Magician's
• 3:13:14
  Apprentice. Yes.
• 3:13:16
  Yeah, Excellent, Jr. No, I'm not.
• 3:13:18
  I was joking. I'm joking, obviously.
• 3:13:21
  You know, you get a vote. Oh no, I.
• 3:13:22
  Was thinking I didn't volunteer myself to have a vote on the
• 3:13:27
  subject of the doctor on a tank I love.
• 3:13:29
  It. People.
• 3:13:30
  Really like that? Yeah, that's.
• 3:13:33
  Crazy. Floor to open up, it was just.
• 3:13:36
  I don't know. It just.
• 3:13:37
  I don't know why people don't. I don't.
• 3:13:39
  I don't know. I just love it.
• 3:13:41
  And also I do. I honestly think this is Stephen
• 3:13:44
  Moffitt showing the Doctor having a midlife crisis, but
• 3:13:48
  that's not what I like about this episode.
• 3:13:51
  Actually. Funny story before we go any
• 3:13:54
  further, the hand lines thing, years ago when my 9 year old was
• 3:13:58
  about three I think I had to watch this for a podcast and
• 3:14:01
  he'd seen I'd had Doctor Who on with him in the room a few times
• 3:14:05
  before that in really watching it was only two or three so I
• 3:14:09
  assumed it would be OK. I put this on and Oh my God, the
• 3:14:11
  hand lines bit. Freaked him out and say that.
• 3:14:13
  Quietly because his mother's just.
• 3:14:15
  Three years old? I'm not surprised.
• 3:14:17
  Well, I wasn't expecting. Him to take the boys freak me
• 3:14:20
  out free. I wasn't really expecting him to
• 3:14:22
  take any notice of what they were anyway, freaked him out, so
• 3:14:26
  I had to turn it off and watch it later.
• 3:14:30
  This is probably one of my top ten stories of all time.
• 3:14:34
  I absolutely adore this, and I understand that other people
• 3:14:38
  don't, but OK, so here's a couple of things.
• 3:14:40
  One, this is this season is a novel.
• 3:14:45
  This is not Doctor Who, where some of the stories count, and
• 3:14:48
  other ones are just things that happen in between.
• 3:14:51
  This is a season where everything counts.
• 3:14:54
  So even the ones that don't have Clara in or are doing something
• 3:14:57
  different with Clara are doing that in order to illustrate
• 3:15:00
  something about the relationship that Clara has with the Doctor.
• 3:15:04
  Everything in this season counts.
• 3:15:05
  Apart from sleep no more. So I mean, but it's.
• 3:15:12
  But let's show us how other people see them.
• 3:15:15
  But the point, so the point I'm coming to is there's a first
• 3:15:18
  episode here and a second episode.
• 3:15:20
  And the first episode is one of those times where people have
• 3:15:23
  said to you, there's this book. It's a really great book.
• 3:15:26
  And they give you the book and they've told you what the book
• 3:15:29
  is about. And the book is about this great
• 3:15:31
  relationship between these two people, and it's got this sort
• 3:15:34
  of these themes and these tones, and they've told you all about
• 3:15:38
  this book, and they've built this book up to be this really
• 3:15:41
  amazing thing. And of course, when you actually
• 3:15:43
  read it, the book is. But when you read the first
• 3:15:46
  chapter, the first chapter, so different and so distinct from
• 3:15:50
  all the things this person said, it just throws you off at the
• 3:15:53
  wrong foot at the start before it brings you into the story
• 3:15:57
  instead. So we've talked about how this
• 3:15:59
  season is this dark season, and it kind of leans just a bit too
• 3:16:03
  much into that relationship for the light and the shade sort of
• 3:16:06
  properly have room to breathe, and how there's only a couple of
• 3:16:10
  sort of episodes in the middle where there's any kind of
• 3:16:13
  breathing from that light and shade at all.
• 3:16:15
  But I think the first episode of this is a breeze instead.
• 3:16:19
  I don't think that sort of story kicks in until the 2nd episode,
• 3:16:23
  the story of the season, the novel that Steven Moffatt's
• 3:16:26
  telling. So I love the first episode for
• 3:16:28
  being distinct and for being this really sort of slow
• 3:16:31
  introduction to the story. But even.
• 3:16:33
  Even even this story doesn't kick in until 10 minutes to the
• 3:16:39
  end of that first episode, which means we're vamping.
• 3:16:42
  We're vamping for 35 minutes for a there's only 90 minutes long.
• 3:16:47
  Yeah, but we're gathering all the characters together and
• 3:16:49
  putting them in the right place for the rest of the story to be
• 3:16:52
  told. We're bringing Missy into it.
• 3:16:54
  Keep those. People in all of those places in
• 3:16:57
  order for the story of time, they could all just be on the
• 3:16:59
  Skyro. They could, but I just really
• 3:17:01
  enjoy it. I just think sometimes.
• 3:17:03
  I wish I wish you I. Just think, sometimes it's fine
• 3:17:06
  to just kick back and spend half an hour enjoying characters on
• 3:17:11
  the screen, really, as long as you know that it is going
• 3:17:14
  somewhere eventually. And it does.
• 3:17:16
  And so here's the second point. That second episode I always
• 3:17:20
  held when I first saw this, that the second episode was a
• 3:17:23
  distinct thing, that the first episode was about putting
• 3:17:27
  together the pieces for the long arc, the story of the confession
• 3:17:31
  dial, the story of what the Doctor's up to, the story of
• 3:17:34
  what happens. And that the second episode was
• 3:17:37
  aside from that. And I always held that the
• 3:17:40
  second episode wasn't really about being a sequel to Genesis
• 3:17:44
  of the Daleks. So Genesis of the Daleks asked
• 3:17:47
  that question. And actually Genesis of the
• 3:17:49
  Daleks isn't about that question, it's just that that
• 3:17:52
  question comes up in Genesis of the Daleks.
• 3:17:55
  But what I think Steven Moffat's genius is, he takes that idea
• 3:18:01
  that turns up in Genesis of the Daleks, and he takes what the
• 3:18:05
  rest of Genesis of the Daleks was about the creation of this
• 3:18:10
  creature. And he actually puts the two
• 3:18:13
  things together. So the whole Davros would you go
• 3:18:16
  back and kill him? Thing isn't about the Daleks,
• 3:18:18
  it's about the Nazis and the whole, the birth of the Daleks
• 3:18:21
  thing isn't about the Nazis. It's framed with some sort of
• 3:18:25
  Nazi paraphernalia, but it's not about the Nazis.
• 3:18:29
  It's about the eugenics thing, which isn't really what the
• 3:18:31
  Nazis were about. They were about genocide rather
• 3:18:34
  than eugenics. But Steven Moffat takes those
• 3:18:36
  things and he puts them all together, and then he gives you
• 3:18:40
  what feels like a really light story.
• 3:18:45
  It's a sting plot, isn't it? Davros does this sting on the
• 3:18:48
  Doctor, and the Doctor turns it back on Davros, a bit like in
• 3:18:51
  The Curse of Fatal Death. But but Stephen Moffatt makes it
• 3:18:56
  so that that sting only works because of the way Genesis of
• 3:19:01
  the Dialects played the birth of the Dialects.
• 3:19:03
  And he makes it so that that sting only works because of what
• 3:19:07
  happens with Davros when he's a child and with the Doctor.
• 3:19:10
  And so it's not about what the answer to that question is going
• 3:19:13
  to be, because we know the answer to that question is going
• 3:19:16
  to be the Doctor doesn't kill the child.
• 3:19:19
  Of course he doesn't. But what the Doctor always will
• 3:19:22
  do instead is try and just plant a seed in that child's head that
• 3:19:28
  that that alters somehow, just maybe a tiny bit, the course of
• 3:19:33
  what this species is going to take afterwards.
• 3:19:36
  And then Stephen Moffitt even illustrates that in this weird,
• 3:19:40
  seemingly throwaway scene where Missy puts Clara in a Dalek.
• 3:19:46
  And we think it's done a bit for laughs and a bit, So there's a
• 3:19:49
  bit of peril at the end. But no, that scene is not a
• 3:19:52
  throwaway scene. That scene is an absolute
• 3:19:56
  fundamental illustration of what the story's been about.
• 3:20:00
  I think it's a story that's so thorough going, so brilliant.
• 3:20:05
  I just think it's one of the absolute pigs of Doctor Who.
• 3:20:08
  And I just. Have It's funny, a bit sad that
• 3:20:12
  people don't see the pieces fitting together at the end
• 3:20:15
  there. I think anyway.
• 3:20:17
  Singularly. I think that's a singularly
• 3:20:20
  smart reading of this story that only you have had though,
• 3:20:24
  because I went on Gallifrey Base to have a look at the comments
• 3:20:26
  on this and nobody was seeing those patterns.
• 3:20:28
  They were just annoyed by this smug ass two-part.
• 3:20:32
  And you know, yes, it's posing the question, would the Doctor
• 3:20:36
  kill this child? What?
• 3:20:37
  Perhaps it should pose the question, would the Doctor throw
• 3:20:40
  a cripple out of his wheelchair? Because that's the answer we get
• 3:20:42
  in the second episode and it's just horrible.
• 3:20:45
  Oh, sorry, I've flown straight into why I wouldn't put this
• 3:20:49
  through, so I suppose I better continue.
• 3:20:51
  Do you remember during the mid 80s?
• 3:20:52
  Because we don't know. What?
• 3:20:55
  We don't know what? Oh, we do.
• 3:20:56
  No, we do where? Is.
• 3:20:59
  This leading Joe. In the mid 80s, Doctor Who was
• 3:21:03
  put on hiatus. Yeah, the BBC fell out of love
• 3:21:06
  with the show and there were a lot of reasons for that.
• 3:21:09
  The show was far too continuity heavy, just like this story.
• 3:21:14
  The The Master, The Daleks was boring, boring, boring.
• 3:21:18
  Treading on our glories and not doing anything particularly
• 3:21:22
  original with any of them. Sorry.
• 3:21:23
  I know you've just said they did.
• 3:21:25
  I don't see it, but you know, that's just me.
• 3:21:27
  But. The thing is like, you bring
• 3:21:30
  Davros in and he plays the sting. 11 million people, the
• 3:21:34
  number one program for the week, watched Davros last appearance
• 3:21:39
  before this, just five years earlier.
• 3:21:41
  You're not. It's not like you've brought
• 3:21:43
  this character back. Who's this thing that nobody
• 3:21:45
  knows, who needs explaining? Everybody knows who Davros.
• 3:21:48
  It's quite a long time. The Sting is annoying as well
• 3:21:51
  though, because it all of those scenes which appear to have
• 3:21:54
  emotional heft to them, they both proved to be the two of
• 3:21:57
  them duping the other person. So anything I felt for those
• 3:22:01
  scenes is dispelled when I realise they're both lying to
• 3:22:03
  each other and they've both got evil plans up their sleeves
• 3:22:06
  even. That gross?
• 3:22:07
  It's the Doctor Dafrost. What do you expect?
• 3:22:10
  Because it's. It's literally shown as being
• 3:22:12
  like these very touching character moments, eyes opening,
• 3:22:15
  tears coming out. And for a second there, for a
• 3:22:18
  second, because the performances are so realistic, I'm like, Oh
• 3:22:20
  my God, we're actually going here.
• 3:22:22
  And I was quite moved. And I was like, Oh no, of course
• 3:22:24
  we're not. It's just boring our Doctor Who,
• 3:22:26
  isn't it? Rather than anything more
• 3:22:27
  profound than that. Anyway, back to my original
• 3:22:29
  point, another reason why the 80s Doctor Who was lamentable
• 3:22:33
  was because everything's so fucking overlit, just like this
• 3:22:36
  story and all those sequences of those Daleks.
• 3:22:39
  And we're doing Daleks again because we failed miserably at
• 3:22:43
  doing that in Asylum of the Daleks, where every Dalek ever
• 3:22:46
  is going to be in this. But it was all in the half dark.
• 3:22:48
  So now we're going to put all our bloody lights on and you're
• 3:22:51
  going to see a lot of them and it kills the fucking atmosphere.
• 3:22:55
  It just looks laughable. It's like fucking play school
• 3:22:58
  Doctor Who, watching those colourful Daleks or bobbling
• 3:23:00
  around. It's got no atmosphere to any of
• 3:23:03
  it. It's essentially, and this is
• 3:23:05
  not me reposting your point, it's that point.
• 3:23:08
  But just, I don't know if you realize this, but there is a
• 3:23:10
  rule. I don't know if this is across
• 3:23:12
  all the television, but there's a rule at the BBC that you can't
• 3:23:15
  put the lights down too low on a television program just in case
• 3:23:19
  there are people watching who think, oh, something's gone
• 3:23:22
  wrong with the telly and change the channel.
• 3:23:24
  And that's an actual rule at the BBC.
• 3:23:26
  Well, it's the thing they argue about.
• 3:23:27
  It's the thing that some lighting directors would insist
• 3:23:29
  about, and strong directors would get them to turn it down.
• 3:23:32
  That's why I like in the horror. Fang Rock is like one of the
• 3:23:34
  dark I watch. My walk today.
• 3:23:38
  Yeah, though it's not a hard and dried thing, but it's a thing
• 3:23:41
  where, yeah, a lighting director.
• 3:23:42
  Some lighting directors think it's their job to make sure
• 3:23:44
  nobody complaints that it's too dark, but others can be twisted
• 3:23:47
  against it so. Another thing, another thing
• 3:23:50
  they didn't really like at the BBC was the Doctor that was cast
• 3:23:53
  in the mid 80s who was going for a terrible midlife crisis,
• 3:23:57
  strangliest companion in the control room and all of this.
• 3:24:00
  And lo and behold, the same things happening here in series
• 3:24:02
  9 where the Doctor solid tank with electric guitar floating
• 3:24:05
  away with people and playing the theme tune for some reason and
• 3:24:08
  it's just fucking hideous. And the BBC was taking a good
• 3:24:11
  old look and going no, we aren't going to do this anymore.
• 3:24:13
  Where's Chris Chipnall? Get me his number now.
• 3:24:15
  Oh, he's not ready. Fuck, we have to have another
• 3:24:18
  season from Moffett. Nevermind, they literally wanted
• 3:24:20
  rid of Capaldi at the end of this season for God's sakes, the
• 3:24:23
  poor guy man. And I think that half of this is
• 3:24:26
  the reason why are. You done?
• 3:24:29
  No. I'm.
• 3:24:30
  Not the way the story refuses to adhere to a bloody location.
• 3:24:35
  We've done this so many times we've muff it right back to
• 3:24:38
  Series 5 and the pre title sequences goes on forever.
• 3:24:42
  We do a Tour of the Universe and we eat up half the season's
• 3:24:45
  budget to do it because he just likes vamping and none of it's
• 3:24:48
  necessary. Maybe we would have had some
• 3:24:50
  money later in the season and things would have looked more
• 3:24:52
  impressive, but no, he's got to show off at the start and it's
• 3:24:55
  just boring now. So no, for 100 reasons.
• 3:25:00
  The fact they doesn't appear to be a load of poo taking over at
• 3:25:04
  the end of the story, I know it's not.
• 3:25:06
  I don't care. That's what it looks like and
• 3:25:07
  that's what everyone's gone with, so let's go with that.
• 3:25:11
  I just, I just remembered actually my main reason for
• 3:25:15
  wanting to put this through my main reason why.
• 3:25:18
  Is it the poo? No, no.
• 3:25:20
  But it's something you've just reminded me of that.
• 3:25:23
  The main Because, you know, I said it was a bit like a novel.
• 3:25:26
  And I think a novel always has to finish where it starts in
• 3:25:28
  some ways in order that you kind of get an ellipse that the sort
• 3:25:32
  of novel illustrates something about.
• 3:25:33
  And I just think the really fundamentally genius thing about
• 3:25:37
  season nine of Stephen Moffitt's Doctor Who is that he starts the
• 3:25:42
  season with an episode where one of the main characters is
• 3:25:44
  running around on the Segway, and he ends with a sequence with
• 3:25:47
  characters running around on Segways too.
• 3:25:51
  And that's part of your defence of this season.
• 3:25:54
  I'm not going to take the Segway argument, but.
• 3:25:57
  If Joe finished, I don't know. Excuse.
• 3:25:59
  Me, I wasn't dumb. No, I wasn't dumb.
• 3:26:01
  I think this is badly paced with relatively little action in it.
• 3:26:05
  OK, he's done. Yeah, exactly.
• 3:26:07
  Much like the 80s. I mean, I'm not.
• 3:26:10
  Oh, he's milking this. I'm not enough to get to death.
• 3:26:13
  You're. Already.
• 3:26:14
  Off for the very just just for the scene alone of Davros being
• 3:26:17
  thrown out of his chair, which is just the most I'll considered
• 3:26:21
  Tasteless moment in the whole of the new series.
• 3:26:26
  Been this garbage. You finished?
• 3:26:31
  Yeah. Fabulous.
• 3:26:33
  Right segue into the next section.
• 3:26:35
  Beautifully. Dumped.
• 3:26:37
  Couldn't stop myself. Jr.
• 3:26:40
  You are spot on with this. This is a glorious.
• 3:26:44
  See, Rod loves people being thrown out of wheelchairs.
• 3:26:47
  See it's. Dov Ross.
• 3:26:50
  It's not people. It's Dov Ross.
• 3:26:51
  He's a. Crystal Oh my God.
• 3:26:53
  So have you made a cripple? You didn't lie, You toss them
• 3:26:56
  out of a wheelchair. I mean, that's what RTD did,
• 3:26:58
  isn't? It.
• 3:26:59
  Oh, fair enough. And he can get away with
• 3:27:04
  anything. Well, unlike you, Joe, I don't
• 3:27:06
  want to see Davros and the Doctor puckering up and and
• 3:27:09
  making whoopie together. I like the fact that they're
• 3:27:13
  duking each other and they've both got a plan and it's an
• 3:27:16
  intelligent plan and they're tricking each other.
• 3:27:18
  That's far better than them coming together and holding
• 3:27:21
  hands and scuttling off into the sunlight together.
• 3:27:24
  I love this story. Or.
• 3:27:25
  Better, Yeah. That's what I said earlier about
• 3:27:27
  enjoying being surprised. I loved that he sucked me in and
• 3:27:30
  I believed it was really hard When it turned out it wasn't.
• 3:27:34
  I loved being sucked in too. Knew I was on the right podcast.
• 3:27:41
  OK, so you've covered a lot of things, but in summary, Michelle
• 3:27:46
  Gomez, Joe, you always say, oh, Series 9 isn't any fun.
• 3:27:49
  There's no fun in it. You can't get much more fun than
• 3:27:52
  Michelle Gomez. And this Pushing Clara is.
• 3:27:55
  Why? She ditches at that point, she
• 3:27:57
  goes. I'm not having any part of the
• 3:27:58
  rest of this boring season. I'll just be there at the start.
• 3:28:01
  I don't think that's what she said, tying Clara up because
• 3:28:04
  she's hungry. And in case you can't find any
• 3:28:06
  food, she plates like cat and mouse with Clara.
• 3:28:08
  In part so, but she's still totally in control when we see
• 3:28:11
  her. In part one, she started that
• 3:28:13
  crazy kind of 3D hologram coming into into UNIT, but then we see
• 3:28:17
  her as presumably in Spain, but a hot climate country anyway,
• 3:28:21
  and she's totally in control at that point.
• 3:28:24
  She wants to find and help the Doctor and that's kind of
• 3:28:27
  following on the arc that we have seen in Death in Heaven,
• 3:28:30
  where she wants to give him an army.
• 3:28:31
  She's trying to make friends with him.
• 3:28:33
  So that I do think it is consistently told because here
• 3:28:37
  she wants to help him. She thinks he's in his dying
• 3:28:39
  day, she wants to find him and help him.
• 3:28:41
  But that's not to say that she's gone soft because she gleefully
• 3:28:45
  executes soldiers left, right and centre and she's still got
• 3:28:48
  that hard edge. And I say with Clara, then it's
• 3:28:51
  all cat and mouse in Part 2. Why?
• 3:28:53
  Don't Natalis just murder them when they're in that room with
• 3:28:56
  them and they just let them? She let they let her just waltz
• 3:28:59
  around and dance and be witty? Why don't they just fucking kill
• 3:29:02
  her? Because watch television before
• 3:29:04
  Joe. I shouldn't.
• 3:29:07
  I shouldn't be able to ask these questions is my point.
• 3:29:10
  Well, Missy gets to tickle the Dalek's balls.
• 3:29:12
  I mean, it's worth it, for that alone isn't.
• 3:29:14
  It Jesus. Christ, so I love Michelle Gomez
• 3:29:19
  in this. And I am going to point out the
• 3:29:21
  fact, because we've already talked about the hybrid.
• 3:29:23
  Missy actually tells us in this episode at the beginning of the
• 3:29:27
  story what the hybrid is. And that comes back to your
• 3:29:30
  point Jr. about it being very cyclical.
• 3:29:32
  And one of the words I used the beginning was coherent.
• 3:29:35
  So many stories here all depend on each other.
• 3:29:38
  I completely agree with you. She says question, then please
• 3:29:41
  go for it. Well, if she points out right at
• 3:29:43
  the start of this season what the hybrid is, then why do we go
• 3:29:46
  through all these other possible iterations of what it could be?
• 3:29:49
  I'll tell you why. Because of the start of the
• 3:29:52
  empty child, the spaceship comes down and you are given in that
• 3:29:56
  opening sequence every single piece of information you need to
• 3:30:00
  be able to work out the ending, including essentially.
• 3:30:03
  That's our puzzle though. That's our puzzle that you put
• 3:30:05
  together, Ross, saying. It's explicitly said to us.
• 3:30:09
  She says she says are. We talking about Shielder and
• 3:30:12
  all the other nonsense this year.
• 3:30:14
  Because it worked. Because he told you and yet
• 3:30:16
  still managed to deceive. You and.
• 3:30:19
  The Doctor is the Doctor knows all the way along because it's
• 3:30:21
  really clear. And then he knows it's the
• 3:30:23
  Doctor and Clarence that's the hybrid.
• 3:30:25
  That's really obvious. When he talks to me at the end,
• 3:30:27
  he tries to throw some Macguff around I.
• 3:30:30
  Think he just thinks we don't are.
• 3:30:32
  So he throws in 1/2 hearted arc this season and goes.
• 3:30:35
  There you go, that'll do. So far from it.
• 3:30:39
  It's seeded in every story. Yeah, I.
• 3:30:41
  Think it's the nation were so rich weren't they I'm.
• 3:30:45
  Sure. What they actually were, Joe, if
• 3:30:46
  we're going, do you want to do the viewing figures in the AI as
• 3:30:49
  comparison? The numbers were not great this
• 3:30:52
  season. Well, if you.
• 3:30:53
  Want to They were, though. Excuse me, go back to 10 years.
• 3:30:57
  The numbers were not great this season.
• 3:30:59
  This was after the introduction of SMART and the ubiquity of
• 3:31:03
  smart TV's. That's kind of a massive,
• 3:31:06
  massive factor. So the AIS and their viewing
• 3:31:09
  figures, if you look at actually television as a whole Doctor Who
• 3:31:14
  is viewing figures have basically been comparable with
• 3:31:17
  that and sometimes above. So he's actually done pretty
• 3:31:21
  well whenever. Numbers ever equated quality
• 3:31:24
  anyway. Oh, so now you?
• 3:31:26
  Discuss such a lazy argument, Ross.
• 3:31:29
  No, I care. Whether or not, but it is that I
• 3:31:31
  think, yeah, chart placings seem a much more sensible measure
• 3:31:34
  than than the pure numbers. Because yeah.
• 3:31:37
  Or or the AI. So you're saying people don't
• 3:31:39
  don't Not enjoying it Turning off the average AI for this
• 3:31:42
  season was 82.3. I know because I Sutton worked
• 3:31:45
  it out. So it was still a.
• 3:31:46
  Loser. You've got too much time on your
• 3:31:48
  hands. Always hosting a podcast?
• 3:31:51
  Yeah. The thing that Michael.
• 3:31:52
  Some of us are prepared. Michael Gray did used to say
• 3:31:55
  with some, I hate to say it, but with some credence that the AI
• 3:32:00
  goes up as the viewership goes down because it's the people who
• 3:32:03
  like it least stop watching. So only people who really are
• 3:32:07
  hardcore fans keep watching when the AI goes up.
• 3:32:09
  Because everyone because. Because the yeah.
• 3:32:12
  Anyway, well. As as Davros, you've just fallen
• 3:32:15
  into my evil trap Lambda, because if I compare the second
• 3:32:19
  series of Capaldi to the second series of Jodi.
• 3:32:22
  Oh, there it is. The well, the.
• 3:32:26
  Laziest argument in the history. Let's go the.
• 3:32:29
  IR the average ratings for season nine was 6.7 compared to
• 3:32:33
  5.4 for Jodi, and the average AI was 82.3 for Capaldi and 80.2
• 3:32:39
  for Jodi. So it wins both on quantity and
• 3:32:42
  quality. So yeah, we were we.
• 3:32:44
  Were having so much more fun. Well, clearly not according to
• 3:32:48
  the ratings or the AI. But the thing about the Michael
• 3:32:51
  Gray thing, right, is that what Michael Gray didn't take into
• 3:32:54
  account is people who watch things at a time of their own
• 3:32:57
  choosing. So you have to proactively go on
• 3:33:01
  iPlayer and look for Doctor Who if you want to watch it
• 3:33:04
  afterwards. And those are the people who
• 3:33:06
  probably are the ones who would give the highest scores, but
• 3:33:09
  they don't get asked about the AI because the AI is only a
• 3:33:13
  record of the live viewership. So Michael grades thesis was
• 3:33:18
  correct at the time of three channel television, but now the
• 3:33:22
  inverse is the case. The AI tends to go down as the
• 3:33:26
  viewership goes down because the people who watch it, who like it
• 3:33:30
  the most, who would score the highest, are the ones who are no
• 3:33:33
  longer being asked. But top and bottom, it beats Joe
• 3:33:37
  this season into a cocktail. So that was fine.
• 3:33:39
  You know, I'm just just putting that out there, Joe.
• 3:33:41
  Just are you telling me the Witch is familiar and the Ghost
• 3:33:44
  monument that the Witch is familiar had higher ratings?
• 3:33:47
  Yes. No.
• 3:33:49
  No, it didn't. I'm not Ghost monument.
• 3:33:50
  No, I'm comparing. No, no, no.
• 3:33:52
  No, you're not comparing series second series I'm comparing.
• 3:33:56
  I'm well, I'm talking about Capaldi's.
• 3:33:58
  We can't just pick and choose which.
• 3:34:00
  One, you've just pick and choose what no.
• 3:34:02
  I've picked Capaldi's second. Series with Jody's second
• 3:34:04
  series. I believe the lie of the land
• 3:34:07
  got 3.5 million overnight by the time we got to Capaldi's.
• 3:34:10
  Hang on, you're not serious. We're talking about series.
• 3:34:14
  That that balloon was ever. Desperately, desperately trying
• 3:34:19
  to change you. Brought up numbers, you brought
• 3:34:21
  up the. Numbers I did.
• 3:34:23
  That is a desperate point in your.
• 3:34:25
  Defence. Come on boys, it's bedtime.
• 3:34:27
  Oh yeah, sorry. As we enter.
• 3:34:30
  Our half an hour ago. I don't know where you are now.
• 3:34:35
  Right. I'm going to end my argument
• 3:34:36
  that I think it's spectacular and I'm definitely.
• 3:34:39
  Looking it through. It looks brilliant, beautifully
• 3:34:44
  directed. Love the cold opening.
• 3:34:47
  It's direct. Yeah, I I will concede Joe, the
• 3:34:50
  shot of the all the Daleks whizzing around in the room with
• 3:34:53
  the TARDIS looks naff. Otherwise, though, I think it
• 3:34:56
  looks pretty, pretty damn spectacular throughout.
• 3:35:00
  Davros. I love that game of cat and
• 3:35:02
  mouse with with the Doctor and the fact that the Doctor.
• 3:35:07
  Davros initially tries to trick him by saying use the wires and
• 3:35:10
  the wires will destroy the dialects.
• 3:35:12
  And again we get that mirror of destiny, the dialects and the
• 3:35:15
  Doctor doesn't fall for that. It's only when he tries to get
• 3:35:17
  the Doctor to use his compassion to give allegedly Davros some
• 3:35:21
  regeneration energy. But then, obviously the Doctors
• 3:35:24
  can't hang him all along anyway and animates the dead dialects
• 3:35:29
  and not the POO. Because POO cannot be
• 3:35:30
  reanimated. He reanimates. 3 minutes ago,
• 3:35:35
  when you were making the point before the point before the
• 3:35:38
  point you're making now, and you said that was your last point,
• 3:35:41
  you were trying to illustrate something about the story by
• 3:35:44
  being as big a liar as Davros and the Doctor are.
• 3:35:47
  Correct. Correct.
• 3:35:50
  And that is my end point. So it still looks like poo
• 3:35:54
  though. So that's going through.
• 3:35:57
  Oh, kids love poo Johnny Fart. Yes, no.
• 3:36:00
  You've got a good point there. Kids do love a bit of poo.
• 3:36:03
  So on that poo stain note, we are on to round.
• 3:36:07
  Two. Oh my God.
• 3:36:09
  We have four stories left. We've got the tree.
• 3:36:12
  Can we drag this out for 1/5 hour now?
• 3:36:16
  This will take about two minutes.
• 3:36:18
  Magician's Apprentice, Girl Who Died, sleep no more and Hell
• 3:36:21
  Bent are our final. Wow, who would have been?
• 3:36:24
  To those. People would have expected to
• 3:36:27
  go. Aren't they?
• 3:36:28
  Probably. So let's spin the wheel of
• 3:36:30
  fortune and see what we get. We are starting with the girl
• 3:36:34
  who died up against oh up against Hell Bent Jr.
• 3:36:41
  Oh hell. Bent Pete.
• 3:36:45
  Hell Bent. Joe the girl dies.
• 3:36:51
  I'm going hell bent. Oh, it.
• 3:36:54
  Could win yet? So the girl who died is the next
• 3:36:58
  to fall, so we are left with three did.
• 3:37:01
  You just say which one's hell bent.
• 3:37:02
  He doesn't. Say out loud.
• 3:37:06
  The last one, Pete, the last one.
• 3:37:08
  So we now have Magician's Apprentice.
• 3:37:16
  He's hell bent. Oh my God.
• 3:37:17
  Sleep no more is going to be in the final.
• 3:37:20
  So it's Magician's Apprentice versus Hell Bent.
• 3:37:24
  Hell. Bent.
• 3:37:25
  Hell Bent. Jr.
• 3:37:28
  Hell. Bent.
• 3:37:30
  I'll go hell bent as well, so Magician's apprentice getting.
• 3:37:33
  Up. Balls, So we are left with our
• 3:37:36
  final two. Sleep.
• 3:37:40
  No more. Who would have guessed?
• 3:37:44
  Sleep no more up against hell Bent.
• 3:37:47
  Surely there can be only one winner here.
• 3:37:50
  One would have thought so, but hey, this is strictly and you
• 3:37:52
  never know. Let's go to Jr. first.
• 3:37:55
  No, come to me last. OK, Pete.
• 3:38:00
  Absolutely easily. Sleep no more.
• 3:38:02
  It's original, fun and exciting. Wow, Joe.
• 3:38:07
  Yeah, my biggest surprise of the year?
• 3:38:09
  Sleep. No.
• 3:38:10
  More. Do you 2?
• 3:38:13
  Oh. Joe.
• 3:38:17
  What's happening? Now.
• 3:38:20
  We're so similar, you know? I'm considering on this When you
• 3:38:24
  say I really enjoyed sleep no more when I watch it, far more
• 3:38:31
  than I ever thought I would. And you hear Joe Shaw in the
• 3:38:34
  distance. I can't.
• 3:38:35
  She's calling me. She's.
• 3:38:37
  Calling me or hell bent I know where J Rs going with this do.
• 3:38:43
  You want me to do it then? Go for it, I mean.
• 3:38:47
  Hell Bent is one of my three favorite episodes of all time,
• 3:38:51
  but fuck me Sleep no more. I think underdog of all underdog
• 3:38:56
  in the final two sleep no more, everybody knows.
• 3:39:02
  Well, that makes it easy for me. I'm going to.
• 3:39:04
  Sleep no more, we've. Gone now sleep landslide.
• 3:39:10
  Reiki though DWM they will be turning in their proverbial
• 3:39:14
  graves flash to us because it is not heaven sent, it is sleep.
• 3:39:20
  No more is our vector. Well, no one saw that four hours
• 3:39:23
  ago. There's a story arc for you.
• 3:39:31
  I usually say at this point that's a very worthy winner, but
• 3:39:34
  yeah, well, we've all voted for. It so I.
• 3:39:36
  Think that's a good indication of the quality of series nine
• 3:39:40
  that sleep no More as one hour episode?
• 3:39:43
  It's unexpected, probably even even for us.
• 3:39:46
  That's probably the most unexpected result.
• 3:39:51
  OK, so I'm I'm fabulous. I don't know where to go from
• 3:39:55
  there. I got it.
• 3:39:56
  Absolutely. I mean the brilliant thing
• 3:39:59
  about. This is that.
• 3:40:00
  It's a a season that starts with a story where somebody's playing
• 3:40:05
  a sort of trick pulling a fastball on someone, isn't it,
• 3:40:09
  Joe? Well, yes.
• 3:40:10
  Quiet. Oh no.
• 3:40:12
  Are you going to do this? I am going to do.
• 3:40:15
  It. Because I tell you what.
• 3:40:16
  Because I tell you what. Good.
• 3:40:19
  It's been 4 hours of their life. It's been 4 hours but I think it
• 3:40:24
  would have happened naturally anyway.
• 3:40:26
  I messaged Joe before the start of this.
• 3:40:28
  Said if we get rid of heaven sent in the first round we can
• 3:40:31
  get sleep no more to win this. And he said, yeah, you're right,
• 3:40:33
  we can. And.
• 3:40:35
  We did. But I'm going to say it wasn't
• 3:40:39
  going to happen anywhere. Poised about sleeping.
• 3:40:41
  No more stand. Well, first round, all four of
• 3:40:44
  us put it through. Yeah, there wasn't one
• 3:40:46
  dissenting voice. I know.
• 3:40:49
  I think it's entirely down to my championing of it that made.
• 3:40:52
  You clearly nothing to do with Jr. and Joe.
• 3:40:54
  Cheating. Look at you.
• 3:40:56
  I could never say no. I was at 2 minds as to whether
• 3:40:59
  to tell you, but I think it would have won anyway.
• 3:41:04
  What I love is the fact that Jr. is that people can message
• 3:41:07
  people and it's like the traitors.
• 3:41:09
  On strip. Come, Hamster, you know.
• 3:41:11
  This is you know. Take my hands.
• 3:41:13
  Come, Hamster, that's what. We should be going.
• 3:41:15
  But also, if we've made people listen to four hours of this,
• 3:41:18
  we've got to give them a really good twist to.
• 3:41:20
  The end That's right. Absolutely.
• 3:41:22
  Well, like I say, we did all vote for a first round.
• 3:41:24
  If it had only been you two guys then it would have been a bit
• 3:41:26
  suspect, but it went through naturally.
• 3:41:30
  Yeah, I think it won naturally as well when it came down to
• 3:41:33
  hell bent versus sleep no more. At the end, I thought, I'm not
• 3:41:35
  even going to have to go sleep no more here am I.
• 3:41:39
  Well, yeah. Exactly.
• 3:41:40
  Exactly. So it only takes time to thank
• 3:41:43
  our guests. Gentlemen, is there anything
• 3:41:44
  you'd like to plug Jr. No.
• 3:41:50
  Excuse me. It's all beyond you there.
• 3:41:51
  Come on. Well, I mean, if people want to
• 3:41:54
  listen to me on a podcast, just Google Strangers in Space or Jr.
• 3:41:58
  Southall and you'll find me. That's the most uninterested
• 3:42:03
  promotion I've ever heard. I'd like to think of this as the
• 3:42:07
  podcast that people find, not the podcast that get people get
• 3:42:10
  told to go off and listen to. Really.
• 3:42:13
  We're so contrary, isn't it, Pete?
• 3:42:16
  Where can people find you? Maximum Power Podcast a Blake 7
• 3:42:19
  podcast is between seasons at the moment, but do check us out
• 3:42:22
  if you're interested in in in Curious about Blake Seven, we
• 3:42:25
  review one. Episode Fabulous.
• 3:42:27
  It's such a fabulous podcast. And that's it.
• 3:42:31
  And we just need to confirm that next time round we're doing
• 3:42:34
  something a bit special. We are doing 8 orphan episodes
• 3:42:37
  that don't. This wasn't special.
• 3:42:39
  Oh, this was. Jr.
• 3:42:40
  This was very special. Very special.
• 3:42:42
  Indeed. You're doing 8 versions of
• 3:42:44
  orphan 55. Yes.
• 3:42:46
  Oh God no. My eyes were bleed the.
• 3:42:50
  Benny cut. The Vilma cut.
• 3:42:51
  The weird docky person cut. No, we're doing 8 episodes from
• 3:42:57
  across all four modern shows. You reel them off quickly just
• 3:43:00
  so I can see, oh, it's reel. Them off quickly.
• 3:43:02
  OK, so we've got Day of the Doctor.
• 3:43:06
  No reaction at all. Hour of the Doctor, No reaction
• 3:43:12
  at all. Legend of the Sea Devils.
• 3:43:16
  J Rs Just been. Capricious.
• 3:43:18
  Poker. It's pure poker.
• 3:43:20
  I didn't realise I was supposed to vote on these.
• 3:43:22
  OK, Day of the Doctor, Great power of the Doctor.
• 3:43:24
  Great legends of the Sea Devils. Great Would.
• 3:43:30
  Have failed the ECB film making class.
• 3:43:32
  Yeah, what else we've got? We've got the Star Beast.
• 3:43:36
  Wild Blue Yonder, The Giggle Planet of the Dead and the.
• 3:43:41
  Waters of Mars. That's a hell of a list there.
• 3:43:44
  It is. I think there'll be plenty to
• 3:43:46
  debate next time, unlike tonight.
• 3:43:47
  Which I'll be more positive, but I don't know if I'll have more
• 3:43:50
  fun than I did. Tonight no, it's been a been an
• 3:43:53
  excellent podcast, very much enjoyed your company.
• 3:43:56
  Thank you both indeed very much for your enlightened views.
• 3:44:00
  Well JRS anyway and thank you very much.
• 3:44:04
  Being the baddie, I'm going to do it more.
• 3:44:06
  Often. Dressed in black on the
• 3:44:09
  occasion. I.
• 3:44:10
  Just got the. Go to bed.
• 3:44:14
  So thank you all for listening and until next time.
• 3:44:17
  Keep. Listening.
• 3:44:21
  Good night. The.