Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #008 Jason Flom with Douglas DiLosa

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#008 Jason Flom with Douglas DiLosa · Wrongful Conviction

0:01
Speaker 1: I came from a beautiful neighborhood, had a beautiful life.
0:07
Speaker 1: I went to sleep because September seventh was the first
0:09
Speaker 1: day of my high school year.
0:11
Speaker 2: I was going to be a senior.
0:12
Speaker 1: At twenty two, I was set to start college.
0:15
Speaker 2: I woke up and my life was never the same again.
0:19
Speaker 1: Cops came out with guns drawn, and I never saw
0:22
Speaker 1: freedom ever since after that.
0:24
Speaker 2: It's like roach mode town.
0:26
Speaker 1: Once you get in, you and I can'tnam.
0:30
Speaker 2: This is wrong for conviction with Jason Flamm, I'm particularly
0:54
Speaker 2: thrilled today to have as our guest my good friend
0:58
Speaker 2: Doug Delosa. Doug, welcome to the show.
1:00
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you, Jason.
1:01
Speaker 2: Having worked with the Nisis Project now for twenty years
1:05
Speaker 2: as my role as a founding board member, I thought
1:07
Speaker 2: I had heard everything until I heard Doug's story. So
1:11
Speaker 2: you were living in Louisiana, right, I grew up there.
1:15
Speaker 1: I was born and raised in New Orleans, Louisiana. At
1:21
Speaker 1: the time, I wasn't living in New Orleans proper, but
1:24
Speaker 1: I was living just outside of New Orleans in the
1:26
Speaker 1: city of Kenna. I was married. My wife and I
1:30
Speaker 1: had been together a little over ten years. We had
1:33
Speaker 1: two beautiful children, a son who was seven at the
1:36
Speaker 1: time and a daughter who was five.
1:40
Speaker 2: Right, So you had a little yard and basically some
1:44
Speaker 2: neighbors and sort of like we think of in New York,
1:46
Speaker 2: we think everything's a cull the sack. Right, we have
1:48
Speaker 2: this strange region America as a series of called the Sack.
1:50
Speaker 2: But basically, am I paying the right picture?
1:53
Speaker 1: Yes?
1:54
Speaker 2: Until it all went wrong?
1:56
Speaker 1: Absolutely, until that American dream turned into the American nightmare.
2:00
Speaker 2: Right, And it's a nightmare of proportions that are impossible
2:03
Speaker 2: to overstate. You were at home with your wife and kids, right,
2:10
Speaker 2: and tell us what happened.
2:11
Speaker 1: It was a typical Friday evening in our lives. Fast
2:16
Speaker 1: forward to about two thirty in the morning on Saturday morning,
2:23
Speaker 1: September twenty seventh, and I woke up, sat up in bed.
2:29
Speaker 1: I heard a noise. The noise that I was positive
2:33
Speaker 1: I heard was our pet parrot, squawking and fluttering around
2:39
Speaker 1: in its cage. I get up from bed, Tell my wife,
2:44
Speaker 1: I'm going to check on Andy. That was the name
2:46
Speaker 1: of the bird.
2:47
Speaker 2: And what was your wife's name.
2:48
Speaker 1: My wife's name was Glinda. Right, I get up, I
2:52
Speaker 1: go downstairs. As soon as I got to the foot
2:55
Speaker 1: of the stairs. One person came from the side of me,
3:03
Speaker 1: out of our bathroom area, and this person immediately struck
3:08
Speaker 1: me with an object that I think was a piece
3:10
Speaker 1: of mob pandle or a broomstick. Another person came from
3:15
Speaker 1: the kitchen area and immediately knocked me to the ground,
3:20
Speaker 1: and the two individuals, I don't know how long it lasted,
3:25
Speaker 1: probably less than thirty seconds, kicked me, beat me until
3:31
Speaker 1: I lost consciousness. Sometime later I was regaining consciousness. I'm
3:39
Speaker 1: not sure how long I laid on the floor, but
3:42
Speaker 1: I realized thing that sort of frightened me. At first,
3:45
Speaker 1: I couldn't move my fans and feet were tied behind
3:49
Speaker 1: my back. I was hog tied, and I was struggling
3:52
Speaker 1: to gain consciousness and put my thought process together to
3:56
Speaker 1: figure out what had happened. After whether it was one
4:01
Speaker 1: minute or ten minutes, I started calling for my wife.
4:06
Speaker 1: Didn't get any response at all.
4:09
Speaker 2: So you're at the foot of the stairs, at the.
4:11
Speaker 1: Foot of the stairs, inside of what would have been
4:14
Speaker 1: our den, right.
4:15
Speaker 2: And she's and she's upstairs, she's upstairs, upstairs in the bedroom.
4:21
Speaker 1: Getting no response at all from my wife. I called
4:25
Speaker 1: for my seven year old son, Dennis. And on the
4:29
Speaker 1: third of the fourth call from my son, I heard
4:35
Speaker 1: him stirring upstairs. He answered me. Initially, he went into
4:41
Speaker 1: the master bedroom and I could hear him say, Daddy,
4:47
Speaker 1: where are you. I see Mommy, but she's sleeping, and
4:51
Speaker 1: I said, Daddy's downstairs. Please come downstairs. He came downstairs
4:58
Speaker 1: and I told him, Dennis, two bad men had broken
5:03
Speaker 1: in the house and they hurt Daddy. But I'm gonna
5:05
Speaker 1: be all right. I need you to untie my hands.
5:09
Speaker 1: He couldn't untie my hands because the rope was tied
5:12
Speaker 1: so tightly. Then I asked him to go in the kitchen,
5:16
Speaker 1: please get a knife and try to cut the rope.
5:20
Speaker 1: He came back with a knife, but he was panicking
5:23
Speaker 1: because he said, Daddy, I'm scared because I can see
5:27
Speaker 1: four legs under the blind or the curtain in the
5:34
Speaker 1: kitchen leading out to the patio. I can see people
5:37
Speaker 1: standing on the patio, and I'm afraid it's the bad
5:39
Speaker 1: men that hurt you. And I sort of panicked myself then,
5:44
Speaker 1: and I said, Dennis, pick up the phone. The phone
5:48
Speaker 1: was right there on the landing of the stairs. I
5:51
Speaker 1: said dial nine one one, and he immediately picked up
5:56
Speaker 1: the phone dial nine one one. He says, what do
6:00
Speaker 1: I say? And I said, just tell him you need help,
6:04
Speaker 1: that your daddy's hurt. And you had seen two men
6:10
Speaker 1: standing on the patio. I don't think he told them
6:14
Speaker 1: that exact anyway, he got their attention, and within minutes
6:18
Speaker 1: police arrived on the scene.
6:21
Speaker 2: And then the police arrive on the scene. And then
6:23
Speaker 2: this is where things start to really get crazy, right,
6:26
Speaker 2: because it seems like a pretty simple situation. You're hog tied. Right.
6:30
Speaker 1: The police enter. The first thing one of them does
6:33
Speaker 1: is kneel down next to me, ask me if I'm
6:37
Speaker 1: all right. I guess I basically tell him, yeah, I'm fine.
6:42
Speaker 1: He doesn't untime, he doesn't do anything, and I hear
6:47
Speaker 1: another officer goes upstairs, and at that point in time,
6:53
Speaker 1: the next thing I hear him is kicking a door
6:56
Speaker 1: off the hinges. And it turned out that after my
7:00
Speaker 1: son had gone in the bedroom when I called him
7:05
Speaker 1: and he found his mother what he described as being asleep,
7:09
Speaker 1: he must have pulled the door shut behind him and
7:12
Speaker 1: it just automatically locked. So so he kicks in the door.
7:19
Speaker 1: He kicks in the door. When he kicks in the door,
7:22
Speaker 1: he really startles my daughter, who's in the bedroom next door,
7:26
Speaker 1: and she starts crying hysterically, and at that point then
7:30
Speaker 1: my son starts crying hysterically. And I'm I'm getting pretty
7:34
Speaker 1: hysterical myself, laying on the floor. I'm still hogtied, and
7:38
Speaker 1: I'm telling you what's going on, what's going on? And
7:41
Speaker 1: policeman is trying to restrain me and keep me on
7:46
Speaker 1: the ground.
7:46
Speaker 2: Which is not that hard.
7:47
Speaker 1: You're but go ahead, and I'm like, and he says,
7:50
Speaker 1: don't worry, Everything'll be fine, and I mean, within moments,
7:56
Speaker 1: it seems like ambulance attendants arrived on the scene. I
8:01
Speaker 1: couldn't hear exactly what they were being told, but they
8:04
Speaker 1: were being told something about my wife was in the
8:07
Speaker 1: bedroom upstairs and that somebody needed to get my daughter
8:11
Speaker 1: and bring her downstairs, which they did. And again I
8:15
Speaker 1: don't know how much time was elapsing, but at some
8:19
Speaker 1: point in time, more police officers arrived on the scene.
8:24
Speaker 1: Eventually someone cut me free. Moments after they cut me free,
8:33
Speaker 1: they told me that I would have to be taken
8:38
Speaker 1: to the emergency room and that the other paramedic team
8:42
Speaker 1: was working on my wife and i'd see her there,
8:47
Speaker 1: and also at some point in time they asked me
8:52
Speaker 1: if there was anybody that they could call to take
8:54
Speaker 1: care of my children. I'm being treated in the emergency room.
9:01
Speaker 1: I don't know how much later again, was it ten
9:05
Speaker 1: or fifteen minutes? Was it an hour later? My brother
9:09
Speaker 1: and a priest come into the emergency room, and they
9:13
Speaker 1: informed me that my wife had been killed.
9:17
Speaker 2: And at this point, you're I mean, You've just been
9:20
Speaker 2: through an impossibly traumatic experience, and now you're getting hit
9:24
Speaker 2: with this news, and the whole world must be collapsing
9:28
Speaker 2: around you. At this point in time.
9:31
Speaker 1: It was pretty hard to believe what I was being told.
9:35
Speaker 1: I think I almost went in the shock when they
9:38
Speaker 1: told me my wife had been killed, And I mean,
9:41
Speaker 1: I just can't process what I'm being told and come
9:45
Speaker 1: up with any logical reason why it had happened.
9:50
Speaker 2: And then you get back with your kids and try
9:56
Speaker 2: to piece things back together. You had given the police
9:59
Speaker 2: the information that they wanted right about it, basically the
10:02
Speaker 2: story that you just told us.
10:03
Speaker 1: I had recalled everything I could remember to the police.
10:09
Speaker 2: Except for when you were unconscious, of course, which was
10:11
Speaker 2: that's the only missing part. And then they were having
10:15
Speaker 2: trouble solving the case.
10:17
Speaker 1: Right, There had been considerable criticism of the police department
10:23
Speaker 1: for not solving having any viable leads in this case,
10:28
Speaker 1: demanding to know from the police chief what were they doing,
10:31
Speaker 1: how were they protecting the neighborhood. I had gotten a
10:35
Speaker 1: little bit vocal, and I probably said on more than
10:39
Speaker 1: one occasion, all of these stupid son of a bitches
10:42
Speaker 1: need to be fired because they don't appear to know
10:45
Speaker 1: what they're doing. Their actions were, in my mind, reminiscent
10:51
Speaker 1: of the old Keystone cops in slapstick comedies, because they
10:56
Speaker 1: just didn't appear to be very.
10:57
Speaker 2: Bright, right, Okay, And so obviously the police, you know,
11:04
Speaker 2: they're feeling a lot of pressure and they're feeling a
11:06
Speaker 2: little they're getting their back up about this, right, right.
11:09
Speaker 2: So then comes the craziest part, in some ways the
11:13
Speaker 2: craziest part of the story, right, which is that now
11:15
Speaker 2: we're three months from the day to the crime basically.
11:18
Speaker 1: Right, we're now the morning of December twenty ninth.
11:23
Speaker 2: I was it's hot, it's hot, inis, it's.
11:26
Speaker 1: Very warm in Louisiana. I'm deciding I'm going to put
11:30
Speaker 1: out the Christmas tree. It's starting. It was a live tree.
11:34
Speaker 1: It's starting to drop needles all over, so I tell
11:38
Speaker 1: my children I'll be right back. I'm just going to
11:40
Speaker 1: put the Christmas tree out for the trash. I've got
11:43
Speaker 1: a pair of cutoff jeans on, nothing else. And as
11:47
Speaker 1: I'm putting the tree in the back of my house
11:49
Speaker 1: by the curve for the trash, I hear Doug Delosa
11:53
Speaker 1: turn around and I sort of turn around, and I'm
11:58
Speaker 1: likes in shock. I have no idea how many police
12:04
Speaker 1: officers are there, at minimum of six, maybe ten or more.
12:09
Speaker 1: I have many no idea how many news cameras are there.
12:14
Speaker 1: Probably as many personnel were there as there were police
12:18
Speaker 1: officers pointing cameras at me, and the police pointing guns
12:22
Speaker 1: at me, and they say, you know why we're We're
12:26
Speaker 1: here to rest you for the murder or your wife.
12:29
Speaker 1: And I'm just like thinking to myself, this can't be true.
12:33
Speaker 1: You know, this nightmare just keeps getting worse and worse.
12:38
Speaker 1: I knew that I had been labeled to suspect, but
12:42
Speaker 1: I never, in my wildest imagination thought that it would
12:46
Speaker 1: evolve into an arrest. I'm not dressed except for with
12:50
Speaker 1: a pair of cutoffs on. My children are in their pajamas,
12:54
Speaker 1: and I asked the one detective, could I please go
12:57
Speaker 1: dress my children and call somebody to take them well.
13:03
Speaker 1: As I was changing their clothes, I turned to this
13:06
Speaker 1: man who couldn't have been more than two to three
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Speaker 1: feet away from me, standing right in my face, and
13:13
Speaker 1: I asked him. I said, detective Dote, why are you
13:17
Speaker 1: doing this to me? Why are you doing this to
13:19
Speaker 1: my children? You know that I didn't kill my wife.
13:23
Speaker 1: And this police officer when I asked him that question,
13:29
Speaker 1: he had the look of a wild man on his face,
13:32
Speaker 1: and he almost, I don't know how to describe it.
13:36
Speaker 1: His voice was almost venomous, and he says, man, fuck you,
13:42
Speaker 1: fuck your children, and fuck that dead wife of yours.
13:46
Speaker 1: I didn't ask that stupid bitch to die in my city.
13:50
Speaker 1: And he goes on to say, he says, why should
13:53
Speaker 1: I give a fuck about you or your children? Do
13:56
Speaker 1: you care about me and my children? My job's on
13:59
Speaker 1: the line, and he said, you have asked that I
14:03
Speaker 1: be terminated in competence. Well, you know what, I don't
14:08
Speaker 1: know who did it. Maybe I know you didn't do it,
14:11
Speaker 1: but I can build the case against you, So you're it.
14:15
Speaker 2: So you're you know, you go to trial, and well,
14:22
Speaker 2: they withheld several critical pieces of evidence from the defense,
14:25
Speaker 2: that which is called the Brady violation, which which would
14:28
Speaker 2: have excluded you and would have led to you being
14:31
Speaker 2: found innocent. Do you want to talk about that.
14:34
Speaker 1: The trial from start to finish, nine days had passed,
14:39
Speaker 1: and from the very beginning, the two district attorneys prosecuting
14:44
Speaker 1: me told the jury that they were never going to
14:48
Speaker 1: hear any direct evidence that tied me to this crime.
14:53
Speaker 1: That basically what they were trying to convict me on
14:57
Speaker 1: was a theory of how I did it and why
15:01
Speaker 1: I did it, And what was going to be important
15:05
Speaker 1: to the jury to find me guilty was that I
15:10
Speaker 1: had no evidence to support my story that two black
15:15
Speaker 1: men broke into my house that night, beat me unconscious,
15:19
Speaker 1: hogtied me, and at some point in time killed my wife.
15:24
Speaker 2: Right now, But the reason we know that you couldn't
15:26
Speaker 2: provide any proof is because they were withholding the proof
15:29
Speaker 2: that they had. They had the investigators. You didn't have investigators.
15:32
Speaker 2: They had all the guys sweeping the house and doing
15:34
Speaker 2: the whole thing exactly.
15:36
Speaker 1: They were fingerprints found in several places throughout the house
15:41
Speaker 1: that didn't belong to me, any of my family members,
15:45
Speaker 1: any of our friends, anyone, any member of the investigative
15:50
Speaker 1: team that had all been ruled out. And these fingerprints
15:55
Speaker 1: found throughout the house belonged to someone, but we have
15:59
Speaker 1: no idea who they belonged to.
16:01
Speaker 2: But they didn't tell you that.
16:02
Speaker 1: No, their fingerprint expert committed perjury on the stand when
16:06
Speaker 1: he said absolutely no other fingerprints were found in the house.
16:12
Speaker 2: Can we talk about the cab driver for a second,
16:14
Speaker 2: because that's one to me, that's one that's always stuck
16:16
Speaker 2: in my mind. It's really you.
16:18
Speaker 1: Know, sometime after I was arrested, well, actually let's back
16:23
Speaker 1: up to right after my wife's funeral, three days after
16:28
Speaker 1: the murder, a taxi driver came forward to the Kent
16:34
Speaker 1: of Police Department and he said, I think I may
16:37
Speaker 1: have some testimony that would help you catch the people
16:42
Speaker 1: who killed this lady, meaning my wife. And as the
16:49
Speaker 1: story goes in his written deposition to the police, he
16:54
Speaker 1: was dropping off affair in that neighborhood, which at that
16:57
Speaker 1: time was exclusively white. There would have been no reason
17:02
Speaker 1: whatsoever to have seen blacks in that particular neighborhood.
17:07
Speaker 2: At least aboot three in the morning.
17:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, least of all at three to four o'clock in
17:11
Speaker 1: the morning. And he goes on to give in his
17:14
Speaker 1: written deposition that as he was driving down this one street,
17:20
Speaker 1: he saw two black men leaving the vicinity of the
17:25
Speaker 1: front of my house carrying what would have fit the
17:29
Speaker 1: description of some of the items I told police were
17:32
Speaker 1: taken from my house. And he says that as his
17:36
Speaker 1: lights shone on the two men, it appeared that they panicked.
17:41
Speaker 1: They ran to a silver van that was waiting, and
17:45
Speaker 1: they sped off in a reckless manner. And he found
17:49
Speaker 1: that very unusual and thought it was important to bring
17:51
Speaker 1: that testimony to the police, which he did.
17:56
Speaker 2: As it was, But they, of course withheld that from
17:58
Speaker 2: the defense illegally.
18:00
Speaker 1: They withheld that and said that there was nobody had
18:02
Speaker 1: ever seen anything regarding any black men in that neighborhood,
18:09
Speaker 1: much less in the vicinity of my home. Now fast
18:13
Speaker 1: forward another six to seven months. I'm at trial. This
18:18
Speaker 1: good citizen is reading in the newspaper and hearing on
18:22
Speaker 1: the TV that I'm undergoing a trial for the murder
18:26
Speaker 1: of my wife. Well, he just doesn't understand, and at
18:29
Speaker 1: this point he doesn't trust the police because he's already
18:32
Speaker 1: gone to the police twice. So he shows up at
18:35
Speaker 1: the courthouse somehow manages to talk to one of the
18:38
Speaker 1: two or maybe perhaps both, of the district attorneys who
18:42
Speaker 1: were trying the case, and he tells his story to them,
18:47
Speaker 1: and they very nonchalantly brush him off and said, oh,
18:52
Speaker 1: don't worry. We presented your written statement to mister Dolosa's attorney.
18:59
Speaker 1: He reviewed, but in light of the overwhelming evidence against him,
19:05
Speaker 1: he knows that your testimony wouldn't do any good, so
19:08
Speaker 1: he decided not to call you as a witness, which
19:11
Speaker 1: was a total lie. They hadn't given any of that
19:14
Speaker 1: information to my attorney. And one of the biggest parts
19:18
Speaker 1: of their case was over and over again they repeated
19:21
Speaker 1: to the jury, no one repeat, no one saw anything
19:27
Speaker 1: suspicious in that neighborhood that night, much less two black men.
19:33
Speaker 1: And that's why you must find mister Dolosa guilty because
19:36
Speaker 1: he was lying.
19:50
Speaker 2: The jury comes back, they find you guilty and sends
19:54
Speaker 2: you to life in prison. Now, the only thing that
19:56
Speaker 2: can make it worse is they're going to send you
19:59
Speaker 2: to what is arguably the worst prison in America in Louisiana,
20:03
Speaker 2: which is this date, which has the highest prison population.
20:05
Speaker 2: By far, Louisiana does have three times higher rate of
20:09
Speaker 2: incarceration than the rest of the country per capita, and
20:12
Speaker 2: of course America has a five times higher rate than
20:14
Speaker 2: the rest of the world. So it's off the chain.
20:17
Speaker 2: But now you're being sent to Angola prison farm, and
20:22
Speaker 2: let's talk about that. Well.
20:24
Speaker 1: Arriving at the Louisiana State Penitentiary, which they call Angola,
20:30
Speaker 1: it was beyond culture shock. I didn't know what to expect.
20:33
Speaker 1: I'd heard numerous rumors that scared the hell out of me.
20:40
Speaker 1: But I arrived at Angola and one of the first
20:43
Speaker 1: things that I guess was really strange was they put
20:48
Speaker 1: you in an initial classification to decide where you're going
20:51
Speaker 1: to be housed. And I'm going before these classification offices
20:57
Speaker 1: and they decide that they're going to put me in
20:59
Speaker 1: a work cell block for my protection rather than general population.
21:06
Speaker 1: And then they make a statement that's pretty odd. They
21:08
Speaker 1: said that they don't have a white cell available to
21:11
Speaker 1: put me in, so I'd have to be sent to
21:16
Speaker 1: a security cell while they prepare a white cell. And
21:21
Speaker 1: I'm like, what the hell is a white cell. At
21:24
Speaker 1: that time, they still believed in segregating the white and
21:29
Speaker 1: black prisoners at Angola, they didn't mix white and blacks
21:34
Speaker 1: in the same cell. But my very first night in Angola,
21:42
Speaker 1: I'm in a disciplinary tier and I'm in a cell,
21:46
Speaker 1: and there's someone down the tier in another cell acting up,
21:53
Speaker 1: and at some point in time, he throws human waste
21:56
Speaker 1: on a security guard, and I'm just like, scared shitless.
22:00
Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on. Their guards would appear
22:05
Speaker 1: to be swat uniforms and riot shields and everything coming
22:10
Speaker 1: down the tier. They're dragging this person out by force.
22:15
Speaker 1: They're beaten him, and I guess I'm curious. I'm sort
22:18
Speaker 1: of looking, you know, I guess maybe I should have
22:22
Speaker 1: known better than to try to look. When one of
22:25
Speaker 1: the gods saw me looking, He's like, what the fuck
22:29
Speaker 1: are you looking at? He turns around and sprayed me
22:32
Speaker 1: with a pepper spray of mace for about twenty thirty
22:36
Speaker 1: seconds wow. And the only thing I knew was my
22:40
Speaker 1: lungs were burning, my face was burning, and it was
22:43
Speaker 1: sort of like a welcomed Angola. That was my first
22:46
Speaker 1: night in the penitentiary.
22:48
Speaker 2: So and then things get even crazier. So you end
22:52
Speaker 2: up working on a chain gang is that right.
22:55
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know that chain gang is a
22:58
Speaker 1: little bit misleading because we're not actually linked by chains.
23:02
Speaker 2: Right, But it's a term that applies.
23:04
Speaker 1: To it's a group of inmates working under the supervision
23:13
Speaker 1: of gun guards on.
23:14
Speaker 2: Horses in the swamps.
23:17
Speaker 1: It could be swamps, it could be anywhere on the farm.
23:21
Speaker 2: Here's a clip where Burl camee the warden talks about
23:24
Speaker 2: the infamous history of Louisiana State Penitentiary.
23:27
Speaker 3: The work in the farm is critical, Angela. That's what
23:29
Speaker 3: it is. It's a plantation prison. It was that way
23:32
Speaker 3: throughout its entire history, so very important that we have
23:35
Speaker 3: agriculture here on the farm that provides work for the inmate,
23:38
Speaker 3: which you know is good for them because they have
23:40
Speaker 3: something to do to use after energy and so forth.
23:43
Speaker 1: It turned out that I was working in what they
23:48
Speaker 1: called camp A Line twenty one under one of the
23:51
Speaker 1: most vicious inhuman farm bosses that Angola had at the time,
24:00
Speaker 1: and I found it difficult at my age and my
24:05
Speaker 1: physical condition to keep up with the average man who
24:09
Speaker 1: was only in their early twenties. And I'm thirty seven,
24:13
Speaker 1: thirty eight years old at this time, in horrible shape,
24:16
Speaker 1: but one of the things that this particular field foreman
24:22
Speaker 1: used to enjoy doing to torment the people under his supervision.
24:28
Speaker 1: He would put us, say on the levee cutting high
24:32
Speaker 1: grass with what they called the ditchbank blade, which is
24:36
Speaker 1: it's impossible to describe on air, but it's this huge,
24:39
Speaker 1: heavy cutting blade. And what he would do is they
24:44
Speaker 1: might have been close to one hundred men in the line.
24:48
Speaker 1: He would put us up on the levee and they
24:52
Speaker 1: would be two inmates with a water bucket, and he'd
24:55
Speaker 1: tell the people with the water bucket, I want y'all
24:58
Speaker 1: to move about a mile down on the road with
25:02
Speaker 1: the gun guard supervising you. And he said, y'all keep
25:06
Speaker 1: moving that water bucket and don't let anybody have water,
25:11
Speaker 1: because it says until ten people pass out from the heat,
25:16
Speaker 1: I'm not letting anybody drink water. And that was a
25:20
Speaker 1: typical day working for this man mac Shaw, where he
25:23
Speaker 1: would see people pass out fall out, as we'd say,
25:28
Speaker 1: from heat stroke, heat exhaustion, from lack of water, and
25:33
Speaker 1: once whatever number he arbitrarily determined he wanted to pass
25:37
Speaker 1: out and be carried off in the back of a
25:39
Speaker 1: truck for disciplinary purposes. Then he'd let everybody else have
25:46
Speaker 1: a drink of water.
25:48
Speaker 2: And then then things got really crazy because at one
25:51
Speaker 2: point you were singled out.
25:54
Speaker 1: It was at more than one point. I mean, it
25:57
Speaker 1: seemed it was something that happened day after day every
26:02
Speaker 1: time I'd go in the field. I never had the
26:06
Speaker 1: distinction of being one of the people. I guess I
26:09
Speaker 1: was fortunate enough that I could go without drinking water
26:12
Speaker 1: longer than other people that I might not be one
26:15
Speaker 1: of the first five to ten people to pass out
26:17
Speaker 1: from heatstroke and lack of water. But I certainly wasn't
26:23
Speaker 1: keeping up with the work quote according to this field forman,
26:26
Speaker 1: and he would just almost every day that I went
26:30
Speaker 1: to work, he would write me up on a disciplinary report,
26:34
Speaker 1: lock me up in administrative segregation to be disciplined by
26:39
Speaker 1: the disciplinary court. They would hear my case and say
26:43
Speaker 1: it would say something like I flatly refused to work. Well,
26:46
Speaker 1: I never ever flatly refused to work. I simply worked
26:51
Speaker 1: until I couldn't work anymore, or I worked at the
26:54
Speaker 1: fastest pace I was capable of. But the field foreman
26:59
Speaker 1: never wrote the truth on a disciplinary report, and the
27:03
Speaker 1: disciplinary board that helped court, they didn't they knew what
27:07
Speaker 1: the truth was, but they would just continue to stack
27:11
Speaker 1: punishment on you and I'd be sent back out to work.
27:15
Speaker 2: It's it's just I don't I can't even I can't
27:20
Speaker 2: find any words. The good news is you're a smart guy.
27:23
Speaker 2: You're a guy of an educated guy, somebody who can
27:27
Speaker 2: can really think for himself. So you get to the
27:31
Speaker 2: point where you realize, if you're going to get out,
27:33
Speaker 2: you're going to have to be the one to do it.
27:34
Speaker 2: Is that Is that a fair statement?
27:36
Speaker 1: That absolutely? And I would say that. I worked as
27:39
Speaker 1: a clerk in an air conditioned office in the print
27:42
Speaker 1: shop silk screen shop at Angola for a little bit
27:46
Speaker 1: over a year, but I knew I my ultimate goal
27:50
Speaker 1: was I want to get the hell out of prison.
27:53
Speaker 1: And everybody that I associated with said, you know, you'd
27:59
Speaker 1: probably be better off going to be what they call
28:01
Speaker 1: an inmate council substitute or prison lawyer working in the
28:07
Speaker 1: law library, and I finally decided I'd apply for that job.
28:13
Speaker 1: I did end up with a job over there, and
28:16
Speaker 1: over the next several years, I learned the law. I
28:22
Speaker 1: think I became pretty proficient with it, and after I
28:27
Speaker 1: had exhausted all of my appeals in state court. After
28:31
Speaker 1: I had gone through hundreds of thousands of dollars on
28:35
Speaker 1: about seven different lawyers who all promised to do something,
28:39
Speaker 1: but no one followed through and did what I hired
28:43
Speaker 1: him to do. I finally sat back, spent six months researching,
28:49
Speaker 1: in another two to three months writing my own federal
28:52
Speaker 1: writ one hundred percent on my own or with having
28:56
Speaker 1: other inmate councils review it give me their critique. I
29:04
Speaker 1: filed my rit of habeas corpus into the federal court
29:08
Speaker 1: system on my own. I didn't know what my chances
29:12
Speaker 1: were going to bed. I figured slim to none at best,
29:16
Speaker 1: but I felt like, at this point in time, if
29:21
Speaker 1: I'm denied, I'm going to be denied on my own terms,
29:24
Speaker 1: and I'll have given it my best shot. Finally, one
29:40
Speaker 1: day they call me for legal mail. So I get
29:46
Speaker 1: up at like five o'clock in the morning go eat breakfast.
29:50
Speaker 1: I went to the window where they pass out the
29:54
Speaker 1: legal mail. They had me a little brown envelope and
29:57
Speaker 1: I was scared shitless to open it.
29:59
Speaker 2: I'm like, because if it's if it's the wrong answer,
30:03
Speaker 2: you're done. This is your last appeal, right.
30:05
Speaker 1: It's the wrong answer, I had a plan to escape
30:07
Speaker 1: from Angola, and my escape from Mangola was I had
30:11
Speaker 1: enough drugs in my possession hidden that probably within twenty
30:17
Speaker 1: four hours, I was going to od and that's how
30:20
Speaker 1: I was going to get out of prison. And that
30:21
Speaker 1: had been something I had planned for months, anticipating a
30:26
Speaker 1: negative response from the court.
30:27
Speaker 2: So I'm getting the chills right now. So you've got
30:29
Speaker 2: this envelope and it's gonna basically tell you whether you're
30:34
Speaker 2: gonna live or die. At this point, you've been in
30:35
Speaker 2: prison for fourteen years.
30:37
Speaker 1: Fourteen years. It's been a long time, exactly. I'd put
30:41
Speaker 1: up with as much as I felt like I could
30:43
Speaker 1: live with. And I felt like my children were getting
30:47
Speaker 1: up in age, and as much as I love them,
30:51
Speaker 1: as much as I felt that they loved me, they
30:53
Speaker 1: continue to visit me almost every opportunity that they got.
30:57
Speaker 1: I felt I was doing them a disservice I having
31:02
Speaker 1: them come to visit me in prison, by having them
31:06
Speaker 1: try to explain to their friends in college, well, why
31:11
Speaker 1: can't you hang out with us this weekend? Oh, because
31:14
Speaker 1: I'm going to the penitentiary to see my dad. And
31:19
Speaker 1: I think I probably was looking at it the wrong way,
31:23
Speaker 1: and I know I would have heard them tremendously, but
31:26
Speaker 1: I felt like the best thing for myself and for
31:29
Speaker 1: my children in the long run was to take my life.
31:33
Speaker 2: Fortunately it didn't come to that. Because you're sitting here now,
31:36
Speaker 2: and so you've got this envelope, what do you do?
31:39
Speaker 2: Do you open it?
31:40
Speaker 1: I went to the law library where I worked, and
31:44
Speaker 1: I locked it in the bottom cabinet. I'm like, I'm
31:47
Speaker 1: the only person here this early in the morning. I
31:50
Speaker 1: just need somebody else around me when I open this up.
31:54
Speaker 1: So about half hour forty five minutes later, a couple
31:59
Speaker 1: of my close friends at work in the law library
32:02
Speaker 1: lived around me. They came in and I told then
32:07
Speaker 1: my one friend, Mike Singletary, who was my closest friend
32:11
Speaker 1: in the law library at that time. I said, Mike,
32:14
Speaker 1: I got my decision from the Federal court. And he says, well,
32:17
Speaker 1: what's it say? I said, I don't know, Mike, I
32:19
Speaker 1: don't have the nerve to open it. And he says,
32:23
Speaker 1: oh my god, he said, come on, give me that envelope.
32:25
Speaker 1: I'll open it for you. So I said, I said yeah,
32:28
Speaker 1: but I said he took it out of my hands
32:30
Speaker 1: after I got it out of the cabinet. He opened
32:33
Speaker 1: it and I said, now, let me read it, Mike,
32:34
Speaker 1: don't so. I took a couple of big, deep breasts,
32:39
Speaker 1: and I don't know how. My heart was probably beaten
32:42
Speaker 1: two hundred beats a minute, and I was shaking.
32:45
Speaker 2: And mine is right now, and I know the aser, and.
32:48
Speaker 1: I opened the writ to the last page, and all
32:54
Speaker 1: of a sudden, I just stopped shaking, and I guess
32:59
Speaker 1: sort of a smile over my face, and for the
33:02
Speaker 1: first time since my wife's funeral, I cried. I started
33:07
Speaker 1: crying almost uncontrollably, when I read that the magistrate judge
33:14
Speaker 1: recommended that my conviction be set aside and that I'll
33:17
Speaker 1: be freed. I just, against all odds, I went up
33:24
Speaker 1: against the most conservative federal magistrate in the Eastern District
33:29
Speaker 1: for the State of Louisiana, who, according to what I
33:32
Speaker 1: had been told, had never before granted a writ filed
33:38
Speaker 1: by an inmate on their own. Behalf.
33:40
Speaker 2: That's a happy ending to an incredibly terrible saga. And
33:46
Speaker 2: you're back and I've gotten to know you. While Doug
33:50
Speaker 2: is now working closely with the Rising Foundation in New Orleans,
33:56
Speaker 2: helping other ax hooneries to rebuild their lives on the outside,
34:01
Speaker 2: using the skills that he has to help them with
34:05
Speaker 2: everything from you know, you name a job applications, to
34:09
Speaker 2: tax problems, to building their houses to you know, fixing things,
34:15
Speaker 2: getting employments. He's become a tremendous advocate for not only
34:23
Speaker 2: the Innocence Project and innocence projects, although in your case
34:26
Speaker 2: you represented yourself, but really somebody who has devoted himself
34:31
Speaker 2: to helping others, which is quite an extraordinary thing. It
34:36
Speaker 2: makes me really so proud to know you and to
34:40
Speaker 2: be a part of your life. It's important to note
34:44
Speaker 2: in all of this that the compensation that you were
34:48
Speaker 2: given ultimately by the state was paltry, to say the least,
34:52
Speaker 2: right because people ask me all the time, well, these
34:53
Speaker 2: guys must get they must get millions of dollars when
34:56
Speaker 2: they get out. I mean, after what you went through
34:57
Speaker 2: fourteen years and a goal to prison and all this stuff,
35:01
Speaker 2: almost being beaten to death, all the other indignities that
35:04
Speaker 2: you suffered, and the fact that you were so egregiously framed.
35:08
Speaker 1: The compensation in the state of Louisiana allows for twenty
35:14
Speaker 1: five thousand dollars a year for a maximum of ten
35:17
Speaker 1: years of incarceration. It's doled out at twenty five thousand
35:24
Speaker 1: dollars a year over ten years, which gives a person
35:29
Speaker 1: barely enough to exist on if you have a very
35:32
Speaker 1: modest lifestyle for ten years. But the other thing, I mean,
35:38
Speaker 1: in my case, it fell short one hundred and thirty
35:45
Speaker 1: seven thousand dollars short of my actual expenses, So I
35:51
Speaker 1: didn't even recoup what I spent.
35:54
Speaker 2: Because you had actually spent the money on attorneys.
35:56
Speaker 1: On my legal defense.
36:00
Speaker 2: You basically paid ten thousand dollars a year to be
36:02
Speaker 2: locked up for fourteen years, is what it comes down to.
36:04
Speaker 1: That's about what it comes down to.
36:06
Speaker 2: It's important to note that there are twenty states that
36:08
Speaker 2: have no compensation statutes, and the ones that do have
36:11
Speaker 2: compensation statutes, some of them are even worse than Louisiana,
36:14
Speaker 2: like Wisconsin.
36:15
Speaker 1: You know, people think that, oh, you were proven that
36:18
Speaker 1: you were wrongfully convicted, you must have gotten millions. Well no,
36:23
Speaker 1: I'm still struggle to this day. I was never able
36:27
Speaker 1: to repay my children for selling their interest in their
36:32
Speaker 1: family homes so I could hire that last attorney. And
36:36
Speaker 1: it's just not right, not just for me, but for
36:39
Speaker 1: all of the men in Louisiana and elsewhere too, and elsewhere.
36:44
Speaker 2: According to the National Registry of his Hoonerations, there have
36:46
Speaker 2: been forty six exonerations in Louisiana since nineteen eighty nine,
36:49
Speaker 2: and the coarter them occurred in Jefferson County, the same
36:52
Speaker 2: office that prosecuted you. The sad truth is that there's
36:56
Speaker 2: probably hundreds, if not thousands of other DOUGDA in Louisiana alone.
37:01
Speaker 2: It's certainly around the country, and I can tell you
37:04
Speaker 2: that we won't stop until we exonerate as many of
37:08
Speaker 2: them as we possibly can. People say to me, you
37:17
Speaker 2: know my work at the Innstance Pride, They say what,
37:19
Speaker 2: But prosecutors, they don't lie that. People don't understand likes.
37:22
Speaker 2: It's unfortunately, it's common, which is why we asked Nina
37:26
Speaker 2: Morrison to join us in the studio today. Welcome to
37:29
Speaker 2: Ronful Conviction with Jason Flammer's good to have you here.
37:31
Speaker 2: Thank you, good to be here.
37:33
Speaker 4: So.
37:33
Speaker 2: Nina is the senior staff attorney at the Innocence Project.
37:36
Speaker 2: She litigates claims for access to post conviction DNA evidence
37:40
Speaker 2: under both federal civil rights laws and state DNA testing statutes.
37:45
Speaker 2: To date, Ms Morrison has served as lead or co
37:48
Speaker 2: counsel for more than twenty innocent prisoners who are freed
37:51
Speaker 2: from prison or even death row based on DNA or
37:55
Speaker 2: other newly discovered evidence. So, can you explain to us
37:58
Speaker 2: what exactly is a Brady violation? We talk about it
38:01
Speaker 2: a lot on the show. Yeah, So, a Brady violation is.
38:06
Speaker 4: Where a prosecutor doesn't give the defense evidence that either
38:10
Speaker 4: the prosecutor or the police or some other agent of
38:14
Speaker 4: the state like a crime lab has that is favorable
38:18
Speaker 4: to the defendant's case. Sometimes it's proof of their innocence,
38:22
Speaker 4: you know, another suspect who is seen in the area,
38:24
Speaker 4: somebody else who admitted to the crime. Sometimes it's evidence
38:28
Speaker 4: that shows that a witness, you know, who claimed to
38:31
Speaker 4: be an eyewitness, was you know, high out of their
38:34
Speaker 4: minds that night according to five other people, or couldn't
38:37
Speaker 4: have seen what they said they said. There's a whole
38:39
Speaker 4: array of stuff. It's basically anything that helps the defense.
38:42
Speaker 4: And it's a strange system when you think about it,
38:44
Speaker 4: because you know, prosecutors and defense lawyers go into court,
38:47
Speaker 4: they're fighting hard in these big murder cases or rape
38:50
Speaker 4: cases or other hard fought criminal trials, and The way
38:54
Speaker 4: the law is set up is the prosecutor has to
38:56
Speaker 4: give the other side something voluntarily that might make them lose,
39:01
Speaker 4: and we trust them in most places to turn it over,
39:04
Speaker 4: so they say, I'm fulfilling my Brady obligations, and there's
39:06
Speaker 4: no check on it until after the case is over,
39:09
Speaker 4: and sometimes not even then until.
39:11
Speaker 2: It's literally too late. And this leaves a very wide
39:16
Speaker 2: lane open for the bad actors in the system, the
39:19
Speaker 2: bad prosecutors to do what they feel like on a
39:22
Speaker 2: given day, and to really railroad people who are just
39:27
Speaker 2: regular people like you and I who get find themselves
39:30
Speaker 2: stuck in this nightmare, people like Doug Delosa.
39:32
Speaker 4: Yeah so, and there's even worse news in terms of
39:35
Speaker 4: how it gets dealt with after the trial, because if
39:38
Speaker 4: you discover that a prosecutor in your case withheld Brady
39:42
Speaker 4: material something favorable to you, your conviction doesn't automatically get reversed.
39:47
Speaker 4: You then, according to US Supreme Court case law, have
39:50
Speaker 4: to show an appeals court that the violation is what
39:54
Speaker 4: the courts call material, which means it actually made a difference.
39:58
Speaker 4: So you basically have to come in after the fact
40:00
Speaker 4: when a jury never heard this information. A witness was
40:03
Speaker 4: never cross examined on it, and say, you know, Judge,
40:06
Speaker 4: if I'd had this, I would have argued this. I
40:08
Speaker 4: would have said that the jury wouldn't have believed this person.
40:11
Speaker 4: And here's why you have to kind of have a
40:14
Speaker 4: mental do over, a hypothetical duover of the trial. And
40:17
Speaker 4: if they say, eh, you know, it made a difference, maybe,
40:20
Speaker 4: but we don't know, it might not necessarily have made
40:23
Speaker 4: a difference in the outcome. So it's what's called harmless error.
40:27
Speaker 2: So, Nina, I wanted to ask you how common are
40:29
Speaker 2: these Brady violations.
40:31
Speaker 4: You know, we don't know because by definition many of
40:34
Speaker 4: them are hidden. We know that we have seen them
40:36
Speaker 4: in a very significant proportion of our cases. You know,
40:41
Speaker 4: there's at least fifteen featured cases on the Innocence Project
40:44
Speaker 4: website just from the last few years that involve serious
40:48
Speaker 4: Brady violations which we uncover in the course of investigating
40:51
Speaker 4: a client's other claim of innocence. And there is no
40:56
Speaker 4: scientific way to study them because by definition, there are
40:58
Speaker 4: things that haven't been turned over. It's sort of like
41:00
Speaker 4: everyone we find is in some ways by chance. You
41:03
Speaker 4: don't have a right to get a lot of files
41:05
Speaker 4: after somebody has been convicted. Things get destroyed. I wake
41:08
Speaker 4: up at night sometimes worrying about you know, these days,
41:11
Speaker 4: when almost everything is electronic, we don't have the piece
41:14
Speaker 4: of paper in the file anymore the way we used
41:16
Speaker 4: to in the cases from the eighties and early nineties.
41:18
Speaker 4: Now it's all in a memo on somebody's computer and
41:21
Speaker 4: they hit delete, or that person leaves the office and
41:23
Speaker 4: it's gone. It's in an email, it's in a voicemail,
41:26
Speaker 4: it's in a text from a witness.
41:28
Speaker 2: It's you know, you know, it's really a level of
41:31
Speaker 2: evil that, in this particular case, I don't know what
41:36
Speaker 2: else to call it. The prosecutor is just evil.
41:40
Speaker 4: And you know, I know, Barry check in one of
41:42
Speaker 4: your other episodes when you had Barry Gibbson, was talking
41:45
Speaker 4: about this concept of noble cause corruption, which I think
41:48
Speaker 4: is a very real phenomenon. You know, I don't think
41:50
Speaker 4: even the prosecutors that we've caught red handed withholding evidence.
41:56
Speaker 4: I think most, if not all of them honestly believed
41:59
Speaker 4: that they were doing it for a higher purpose, which
42:02
Speaker 4: is they had a killer sitting in the courtroom who
42:04
Speaker 4: was going to get away with murder if they didn't
42:06
Speaker 4: win their case, and so they convinced themselves that whatever
42:10
Speaker 4: they were holding back was not really proof of innocence.
42:13
Speaker 4: It was something the defense would use to create a
42:16
Speaker 4: smoke screen, right. But the laws of the law, you
42:20
Speaker 4: have a job as an officer of the court to
42:22
Speaker 4: follow the law and turn it over. And now we
42:24
Speaker 4: know that many of those people were actually innocent, so
42:27
Speaker 4: we see what the real harm is from that skirting
42:31
Speaker 4: the ethical line.
42:33
Speaker 2: So that brings us to the sort of the practical
42:38
Speaker 2: question of what can be done.
42:41
Speaker 4: We had the Innocence Project are working on a couple
42:44
Speaker 4: of things to police things before trial happened. So one
42:48
Speaker 4: of the things we are trying to do is get
42:49
Speaker 4: judges to take a more active role in ensuring that
42:54
Speaker 4: Brady's guarantee is a real one by putting prosecutors on
42:59
Speaker 4: the record issuing court orders to say, I want you
43:03
Speaker 4: to check these five locations to see if there's anything
43:06
Speaker 4: favorable to the defense, and I'm going to have a
43:08
Speaker 4: conference a month before the trial to see how it's going.
43:12
Speaker 4: What have you turned over, what are you looking for?
43:13
Speaker 4: And at that point the defense lawyer will have an
43:16
Speaker 4: opportunity to speak up and say I haven't gotten anything
43:19
Speaker 4: on the witness statements. I don't know who what these
43:21
Speaker 4: witness statements are. And our theory is, you know, for example,
43:24
Speaker 4: two black men came in and did this crime. Are
43:27
Speaker 4: there any reports of suspicious African Americans in the area,
43:31
Speaker 4: whether you think they did it or not? You know,
43:33
Speaker 4: is there anything we should investigate? And the reason why
43:36
Speaker 4: you want to have the judges be policing it is
43:38
Speaker 4: that if you lie to a judge, you can get
43:41
Speaker 4: charged with contemptive court and lose your law license and
43:44
Speaker 4: even go to jail. And on the back end, we
43:47
Speaker 4: need to take accountability seriously, you know, we need to
43:50
Speaker 4: make sure that the state bars have a culture where
43:55
Speaker 4: they can go after just as say what a lawyer
43:58
Speaker 4: who doesn't give a client all their money back or
44:02
Speaker 4: didn't do the job they were hired to do in
44:04
Speaker 4: a trust and a states case or a civil case,
44:07
Speaker 4: that they will go after the prosecutors who break the law,
44:10
Speaker 4: even if it's not politically easy to do. And then lastly,
44:14
Speaker 4: you know, it is very hard, as you know, and
44:17
Speaker 4: you've talked about on your show, for prosecutors to ever
44:19
Speaker 4: be sued civilly and even for states or counties to
44:24
Speaker 4: be held liable for the misconduct of prosecutors. Prosecutors are
44:29
Speaker 4: what's called immune from suit in all but a few
44:33
Speaker 4: very rare cases.
44:34
Speaker 2: And so if a prosecutor.
44:36
Speaker 4: Knows of some favorable evidence and doesn't turn it over,
44:39
Speaker 4: the court Supreme Court has said, well, you can go
44:41
Speaker 4: after them on bar discipline, or you can maybe criminally
44:44
Speaker 4: prosecute them. Talk about Fox and Penhouse, right, but you
44:49
Speaker 4: can't see them unless there's a pattern and practice of violations,
44:53
Speaker 4: and those are very hard to prove.
44:54
Speaker 2: And criminal prosecutions of prosecutors are extremely difficult. Not least
44:59
Speaker 2: it was because proctters generally don't like prosecuting prosecutors.
45:02
Speaker 4: Correct, and they will air I mean, you know, they
45:04
Speaker 4: will give every benefit of the doubt. Oh they missed it,
45:07
Speaker 4: they were busy, they thought they turned it over, they
45:09
Speaker 4: put it in the wrong notebook, you know, yes they did.
45:12
Speaker 4: The defense layer says they didn't have it, but we
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Speaker 4: think they did. I mean, you know, and look, our
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Speaker 4: clients should have been so lucky to get the benefit
45:19
Speaker 4: of every doubt when they were being accused of a crime.
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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being on Wrongful Conviction with
45:24
Speaker 2: Jason Flumm And it was great it's great to have
45:28
Speaker 2: you here.
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Speaker 4: Thanks so much, it's great to be here.
45:35
Speaker 2: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you
45:38
Speaker 2: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud
45:42
Speaker 2: donor to the Ennocence Project and I really hope you'll
45:44
Speaker 2: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
45:48
Speaker 2: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot
45:52
Speaker 2: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd
45:55
Speaker 2: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.
45:58
Speaker 2: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
46:00
Speaker 2: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
46:04
Speaker 2: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
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Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava
46:12
Speaker 2: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one