Latest / Chasing Baseball Dreams / Episode #3: Ben Jenkins CEO of Warstic Understanding the New High School Bat Rules

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Episode #3: Ben Jenkins CEO of Warstic Understanding the New High School Bat Rules · Chasing Baseball Dreams

• Bobby Minor: All right, welcome to Chasing Baseball Dreams. And today I'm joined again by none other than the CEO of War Stick, Mr. Ben Jenkins. So Ben, I see you're back you're back in Dallas, not in the mountains of Colorado anymore, but thanks for taking the time to stop by. ben: No problem, man. Good to see you. Bobby Minor: So the reason I wanted to reach out to Ben and get Ben on again is I don't know, we in the past week or two I did a video on ben: I don't know. Why would I do that? Bobby Minor: Yeah. on I did a video on the whole USA you know USA bat thing, the the new high school bat rules where you're gonna be able to use a drop four, drop five, and a drop six in high school. And I did a video on what that means. a lot people have probably seen the video that Will did with the baseball bat bros where he did a comparison. And if you if you see if you s watch that video, you will see that most of the BB cores actually outperformed the USA equivalent drop five. at least w at least when it comes to exit vilo. So that's why I wanted Ben to to come on so we can just talk about like the new bat rules, what it really means, what it doesn't mean, just to help ben: Yeah. Bobby Minor: you, the parent, have further clarity and understanding. So 'Cause I know a lot of people were losing their minds 'cause they're thinking that, you know, high school kids are gonna be swinging you know, a U U Triple S A drop five hype fire, killing people, and that's not gonna be the case. ben: Yeah. Yeah, I think that was the main mis I think things have calmed down a good amount. And probably I mean I I would think the Bat Rose video, I actually I f I did watch it the other day, you mentioned it to me, and I think it did a really good straightforward job of of of explaining it. you know, I think for sure the the first misconception probably was that when people think minus five, they almost automatically think the U Triple S A, you know, super explosive crazy I mean those are the bats that are the ones that are you know, they're they're very hot. Why I'm not I'm not exactly sure. but that that's what they thought. So I can kinda see where people got it and then of course on social media, one person says one thing and then it just spreads like wildfire. So it was good to see some people like Will or other people start to kind of explain it and and and calm down. And and I think the excitement of it is kind of at least got down to a normal level now for sure. But that was the main Bobby Minor: Well ben: problem. Bobby Minor: Yeah, and then people a lot of people don't realize like I mean, I played college baseball in the eighties. I'm guessing you played in the nineties, two thousands? ben: Mid yeah, I was mid I was ninety four five six. Bobby Minor: Okay. So like back then, like the drop five that I swung i is way hotter than any you know what I mean? Like it's just crazy. And so even that transition from you know from the drop fives to then drop three, but we had the Beezers, the BESRs, which were crazy, crazy hot before the transition to, you know, the BB cores. But like we were swinging bats that man, like I know you well, we both played infield. It was not fun being on the infield when certain guys came up to bat. ben: No, I played it I played a good amount of shortstop at Mississippi State and I I will never forget playing against LSU multiple times with huge guys with minus, you know, four bats. And it was it was something. It it was it wasn't like it was very different than playing like summer college baseball with wood bats or pro ball with wood bats. I mean it was it was some scary stuff back in the nineties with how the bats were of course back then we didn't really quite understand how hot they were compared to now because th these new standards didn't exist. but just I don't know why the guys were so big back then, but There was a lot of hard hit balls, let's just say. So it was it was and and you know, natural surface fields as well. So playing shortstop or even third base was kind of like it was a whole different experience back then. Bobby Minor: Yeah, you wanna I wanted to go out there because I also I was a middle infielder that could catch. There are definitely times where I wanted to put on the gear when I'm out in the infield just to protect myself. So ben: pretty. Bobby Minor: when's the last time that you've ever like just got in the cages there at Warstick and swung a beezer or or one of the old, you know, reflexes? something like that. Have you have you done that? ben: I haven't you know, I completely missed the whole Beezer area because like that was after my playing days and it was pre me starting Warstick. So like I I heard I I I've never really like messed around with them or anything like that because it's like it's not gonna help me do much, but I've never I've seen I've seen guys bring him to a home run derby at like the h local high school alumni game and I'm like, okay. So Bobby Minor: Yeah. ben: you know, but that's what they played with, so you know it's like all s I'll fair and look I guess but yeah. Bobby Minor: Yeah. So all right, so let's jump into this. I know I know you're more of a designer. You're the more of a creative, not necessarily the you know, b the the ben: Engineer. Bobby Minor: the engineer behind all the physics and things like that. But so one thing that a lot of people commented was you're gonna ben: Yeah. Bobby Minor: swing a you're gonna swing a lighter bat faster, which is true. Like ben: Right. Bobby Minor: if I picked up a wiffle ball bat right now, I'm gonna swing that faster than I'm gonna swing a drop three. But A lighter bat means less mass, means less momentum at impact, even though you may swing it a little bit faster. So can you maybe in layman's terms kind of just speak to that? Like there's a trade off, like you know, heavier bat, more mass, more momentum at impact versus lighter bat, faster bat speed, but like it almost like it's a net zero. ben: I'm not coming on Saturday. I'm gonna bring up I have this kind of I need to memorize this at some point, but like you're right, I'm not an engineer. I know enough to be dangerous because of years of doing this and I understand a lot, but I never I'm never gonna turn into go back and become a me mechanical engineer. I I try to design bats I think from a player standpoint. I mean that's that's what I was, that's what I work with. I care how things feel when you swing them. I I think I you know, I I basically work with engineers to translate what I want as a player in into final designs, right? So but there's this kind of formula that we we go by if you will because you know we get asked all the time like what what What is your recommendation? You know, one of the hardest things that parents deal with is like, well, what bat should my kid swing? Or what and that could be just a question of, yeah, sure, brand or model, but like, you know, size, in inloaded s you know, balanced, all this kind of stuff. Like it's one thing's for tr for sure out there, it's overwhelming to parents to try to figure out like what bat they could recommend to their kid. And it there's so many options. So we have a simple little formula that isn't the be all end all because everybody's different, but I think this fits the most people and it's and it's and it's not too complex and it's kind of engineering focused. So That recommendation would look something like swing the heaviest, longest that you can control to flush the ball as often as you can with a swing V load that contributes to the equation force equals mass times acceleration. And there's a lot to unpack there. Because Bobby Minor: Mm. ben: I think the things that people would not expect or probably think would be in there is like longest. I can't explain this like an engineer, but and the things that I've sit down with my engineers and see, they're like, if you can swing a longer. Or bad, do it. Right? but to flush the ball as often as you can, Hugely important to us. Like it's almost the most important thing to us. It's actually what hitting should really be about. When you know, when I watch, I get sent a lot of videos, I love it. Like a 12-year-old hit a hit a ball really hard to win a game. And it's like what you're looking for is you know, baseball mom is to let out that baseball mom scream that they just can't help but do, you know. it's joy. Like that's what it is. Well, that's not just home runs. So we focus on exit v low almost obsessively in. This industry, whether it's reviewers, whether it's the customers, whether it's the bat companies, is kind of like exit v-low is the end all be all. But like the exit v-low of of a bat when you swing and miss is what Bobby? Bobby Minor: Zero. ben: Zero. And guess what? Mom is I mean, moms feel it more than anybody, man. Like that that that That that feeling of of just like it it that's baseball's hard, hitting's really hard, right? So like flush to the ball as often you can it's just massively important to us. That's why we like to focus more on not what happens after the bat hits the ball. They all hit the same. I know what no one wants to believe it. Sure, there's little variances and difference and things like that, but it's like the players making that vLow happen, but To circle back in a long-winded fashion to your point, mass is huge. That's why the first part of our sentence is swing the heaviest bat you can control. So, it and that's what probably Will was helping to prove in his video, I'm assuming, was the mass that he's able to put into the ball with a minus three, it it's too big of a factor to just go, Acceleration is gonna matter. Momentum is a part of this as well, right? So mass contributes to momentum that goes into the ball. So like, yeah, I think that was right off the bat everybody thinks the opposite of actually what's gonna happen. So it's it's it's not s you know, the problem in this world is that not everybody wants to sit down and take the time to explain things or really to listen, you know. So I you know, we work with major league players. And in the ten years of working with major league players, I've never seen one. I'm trying to think. The lightest bat that I've ever been asked to make was like George Springer, I think. he wanted a thirty four, thirty one, like a minus like a true minus three. Which one and wood bats is it's gonna be much more breakable at that at that lightness and it's too it's like there's a loss the loss of masks to contribute to power is like something that these major league players just know like they all swing 32 ounce bats minus two ounce bats for that's like the very the norm and then occasionally I'll see like a minus one or something like that because this part of it is real. This is how physics works. But we're so obsessed with the opposite, right? Lighter is better. Okay. Yeah, I'll even go further. Bigger barrels are better. Longer barrels are better. lighter is better. Higher exit. I mean, all of it is just such kind of simplistic thinking, but there's so much more to the craft of hitting and swinging than that, if you really think about it. Like people would be shocked to hear that. I have major league players that want a bat's diameter diameter to be smaller than what's allowed. Like most 13U majors, UAASA parents would be like, What? Like, what what why? And I don't need to get into why, but like they have technical reasons as the Bobby Minor: Mm-hmm. ben: best hitters on the planet because that works best with their swing and what they're trying to produce to make money. And there's just so many variations in what a baseball bat can be. and I think that's what's fascinating about bats to me. But I again I understand that it's overwhelming to parents. So the reason that someone like Will is so successful, to be honest with you, is the psychology of it is as simple as he's helping a parent be certain they think. about what they're recommending to their kid by taking all these the hundreds of options and going, this one's the best. And you know that that totally makes sense. The guy's a really intelligent marketer. You know what I mean? I mean Bobby Minor: Yeah. ben: I have to give him all the credit. I mean I think he literally has a marketing degree. but he's there's an I whether he did that on purpose I don't know and I don't care but like That's why it feels so good to get a review of like this is the bat the best bat out there. And again, I've been on the number one end of that and I've been on the crappy end of that and and most of us have, but it's like we we come in all shapes and sizes and and different abilities and different swing styles and and different ways we move we all move the bat different is like the way that I like to think of it. And and that's what that's what moves the ball. So there's all Bobby Minor: Yeah. ben: kinds of different ways to skin a cat, you know, but one thing that we can't do is change the ceiling. We can't change the standards that are provided within the rules. Bobby Minor: Yeah. ben: and that's for a reason, you know? you know, so that's why it gets kind of crazy. I understand being a parent going, man, I got what, a hundred B B Corbats here to pick from? And the they all they all have to play within the standard. so I understand the overwhelm of that because it would be great to just go, this is an easy choice because this one hits harder than the rest. But Bobby Minor: Well that's all no all great points and I think something that parents don't really ben: I don't even remember what we're talking about anymore, Bobby. Bobby Minor: That's okay. We're talking about bats, so that's a good thing. We're still ben: All right. Bobby Minor: on topic. But like Will, like okay, you see his v first of Will has Will has a really good swing, at least for what he does. but you're only seeing for the most part all of his barrels. You're not seeing probably every swing. I know he'll he'll mix in a little, you know, outtake here and there where you'll see one where he, you know, fouls it off or whatever, but you're seeing his best swings. That's what he's making. So You're probably not seeing the thirty swings where, you know, you hit it on the you know, hit it closer to the hands, hit it off the end or whatever and and the exit velos weren't there. But you made me th I wanted to ask you this. So like and I I know we're talk we're supposed to be talking about the USA bats and all that, but when you're talking about like major league players, like you take a thirty four inch bat, one guy, you know, Springer wants to drop three, somebody else wants to drop one, most wanna drop one drop two. What what are you what are you doing to Change the way. Like where are you giving up something to change the weight? And does that make sense? ben: there's multiple I mean the easiest kind of way is to, you know, cup the bat. But the problem is that you're changing the weighting when you do that, you know. So the hardest bat to the hardest wood bat to make is easily not a lot of players do it, but like an uncupped bat takes a really the the the science behind picking a billet that makes a bat the exact weight that a major league player wants without cupping it extremely difficult. you don't want you don't want to work with those players because in I'm I'm kidding, we have had some, but like the the easiest way is to take take the weight out of the cup. The hardest way is to do it by you picking the exact right billet to make the weight that that it that's what the craftsmanship of wood bats really really is. but you know, think of it too, I'm being very crude. but like every bat has a profile, right? It's a It's a shape. The barrel starts at the cap, what is the diameter? It can go now, you know, you kinda have torpedo back in play after twenty years. Ugh, I don't I don't talk about torpedo bats. The new thing that that I knew about 20 years ago and all its bat companies were like, wow, it's back. Yeah, I know I mean I Bobby Minor: I was actually gonna ask you, so that's why you said don't talk to me. ben: trust me, my phone my phone blew up and died many times in the three days that the torpedo bats blew up. but anyway, so a profile of a bat, really to me, a lot of the craft of how a bat swings is the profile of the bat. You know, like the everybody's enthralled with like when a kid gets into needing a wood bat, they all see a two forty three just as an old timey example. Again, so it's like a giant barrel that has an extreme taper that goes down to a really thin handle. Well the physics of that not the not there's very few people in the world that can truly swing a two forty three well. Go back to my equation and handle it well. But our eyes it's like seeing a great pizza. It's like I I have to have this pizza. Like it it the the The aesthetics of a 243 are almost they're just super appealing to most hitters because of what you see. Bigger is better. and and but but swingability is much different than that. So profile, you know, like a a a two seventy one is the best selling bat model of all time and the variations of it. I mean you're talking J Jeter, King Griffith Griffey Jr. A 273 Bobby Minor: Yeah. ben: is a really elegant design that really almost can't be improved. and it's just super swingable, man. You've got some mass to play with and feel, but it's it's its taper is gradual. and then you've got like a M110 old model that still kind of hangs around. and it's you know all kind of thought of as I mean there's almost no shape to it. Like it's like a long stick, progressive stick, but like For the right hitter, I think Alex Avila lives the last pro. I worked with Alex Vila for a long time and he swung that. I was like, You swinging just a good old one ten, huh? He's Yeah, I ain't broke. Why would I f why would I try to fix it? and it's just like when you really especially look at wood bats, you see the variation in design for profile, and every profile changes the dynamics of the weighting of the bat, right? that's that's really what changes. but it that all affects You literally can't pick up one from the other and swing it unless you're just not sensitive at all to feeling things. You feel that they swing different. That's that's step one before it hits the ball. You the hitting the ball is a is a a result of how you swing it. A hitting coach, Bobby Minor: Yeah. ben: hitting coaches know more than anybody. They they look at the bat thing and they're like, my god, can you stop? Like, can you just pick up something and swing it? You know? Bobby Minor: I think ben: Now they know. When you're swinging something that just doesn't fit what you're doing, though that's when they tell you. Like, hey, it could be your bat is way too light for you for what you do. Your bat's way too heavy for you. They understand more than anybody because they're looking at the person swinging and what they're trying to do and what they're trying to work on then and what their goals are as a hitter. And the whole point of like all these variations in bats really should be about. complementing that hitter's goals and styles. You know what I mean? But it's Bobby Minor: Yeah. ben: you you know, you're a parent, you get on a website and you look at hundreds of bats, like that's, you know, that you don't get a lot of help with that. So Bobby Minor: Yeah. ben: it's it's definitely kind of where reviews can, you know, the the idea of reviews and things like that can be helpful. But where we haven't gotten with reviews is is really like the individuality of players and all their different variations and stuff and understanding that I'm not the same kind of hitter as you. Like I'm and it's not just about billi it's it's way more than about ability and strength. People trying Bobby Minor: Yeah. ben: to kind of dumb it down to those two things as well. There's just more there's this it's it's a lot of nuance to it, man. It's it's it's something it's something that needs to evolve, I guess I would say. Bobby Minor: I'm just gonna watch and see what Will says is the number one bat and I'm just gonna go buy that. I'm not gonna ben: it's a lot easier. And like I said, that's happened to us before. and it's, you know, but I but I can honestly say, I guess if I'm being super truthful, like when our BB Corp, I think our BB Corp bat was really the the most long-standing number one bat before the current one that's been going on a really long run here. 100% people bought that bat from us and it wasn't a good fit for them. Bobby Minor: Mm. Yeah. ben: I mean, if I'm being honest, right? There's no way that that a hundred percent of the people that bought that bat, thinking it's the best bat of all time at the time, got it and it was perfect it was right for them versus some other bat. That's just because the stuff I'm talking about with hitters is real. Right. So, you know, like it's but again, I go back to how overwhelming it can be for a parent, especially and a player we have, you know, like it was easy for me and you. I had I got to pick between I think the black magic the Eastern black magic and maybe I was you know the the green the green I think it was the B B five and Bobby Minor: Yeah. Yeah. ben: there was a worth I think there was a worth. I mean there was just hardly any choices. That's it. So I mean I was Bobby Minor: You yeah. ben: like I I mean I ended up swinging the black magic and and that was my baby. But again w thinking back, I was like, way to go, bro. You pick between two po two baths. Way to go. What an accomplishment. Bobby Minor: Yeah. And there really was not not a lot of ben: You know. so it's just crazy. Bobby Minor: rhyme rhyme or reason sometimes to the bat that we used when we you know what I mean? Like sometimes I just picked up the bat that was closest to me and just you know, I wasn't thinking about everything. ben: Yeah, we we it's caused there's a lot of overthinking happening. I mean there's a there's a l I mean, again, I go the biggest bat candy store I can think of is always better baseball. Like if you go to better baseball in Atlanta, Unreal, the bat wall and just the variety, and I think back to my twelve year old self and I'm like I would walk in, my mouth would drop to the floor, and I'd be like, This is awesome. Bobby Minor: Yeah. ben: Because just the choices and the variety where you can you can truly match What I need is a hitter from a technology standpoint and a swingability standpoint. And then on top of that, I probably there I can go, now I wanna I like this color, I like that. Like there's a lot to compliment yourself with. but again, also the overwhelming side of it all is is real, you know. So I would just buy I would just buy the number one bat too. I think I just Bobby Minor: No, absolutely. So let me ask you this. Yeah. It's easier. I mean zero cognitive load. You just you know. okay, let me ask let me ask you this. Yes or n so it's gonna be a yes or no question and then why? Should most players, regardless of age, swing a wood bat in the cages? ben: I think it depends I hear this a lot. I regardless of age, swing a wood bat in the cage. Depends on what your goal is. I don't think everybody's goal needs to be to get to college. I don't think everybody's goal needs to even be to get to high school, but I think the sweet spot usually is I think it's a great teacher of, you know, kids playing youth ball to accomplish making their high school team and maybe becoming a starter and you know, even getting all district. Like it's a great life journey to take. To become an adult later. So, and making your high school baseball team is not easy. it it's gotten more competitive. So let's let's say your goal is to be a high school hitter. I mean, I I would say there's absolutely no reason not to swing a wood bat growing up because it's simply harder. So our sweet, you know, we're dealing with less sweet spot, and so to hit the ball good, you gotta do a lot more things right. You gotta do with a metal bat. I mean, it's a simple concept. And so from Bobby Minor: Absolutely. ben: a strength perspective, yes, but like you're just gonna have to clean yourself up from a hitting mechanic standpoint and a timing standpoint in order to hit the ball well. So absolutely it's a great, it's a it's one of the simplest great training tools that exist for sure. Bobby Minor: So that's good. What so okay. Go ahead, what were you gonna say? ben: no, that's it. Bobby Minor: So here's here's a question. What would what would you say to the parent of that seven, eight, or nine year old that doesn't have a baseball background? How how can they know whether the bat that they're buying their son is too long or too heavy or both versus being the longest, heaviest bat that they can swing and control? ben: I mean, to dumb it down, I would say are they having fun at the plate? You know? if if you're having fun at the plate and you're making a lot, I I I would base it more on contact, and I don't mean to use the word contact. People contact gets a bad rap in the hitting world because like no one wants to tell say they're a contact hitter. When Bobby Minor: Yeah. ben: I say contact, I mean my my my job as a hitter is to forget about results and hit the bard as hit the ball as hard as I can as often as I can. And there's a give and take there, right? Because if I just swing At 100% all the time, I'm not gonna have a lot of hard contact. I'm gonna have occasional really hard contact. So there's a balance there. But it like if you're making a lot of hard contact and you're happy with that as about where you are, no reason to change. But if you're if you're not, I mean, obviously I always would say it's not the weapon, it's the warrior. Let's go check the tape and see how our mechanics are, and that's what's so hard, is right. I can't There's the mechanical side of what you're doing, there's the timing side of what you're doing, and then there's the bat. I would say the bat's the least important part. But if if there's things consistently happening, like I think a lot of people dumb it down like this. my kid's behind. They're not catching up to fastballs. He needs a lighter bat. This is the com the most common one I probably see with youth baseball. He needs a lighter, lighter bat. And it also is what causes people to be scared to go from minus 10 to minus 8. To minus five. Bobby Minor: Mm-hmm. ben: It's it's I mean, sure, it okay, but why not just fix your timing? Let's get started earlier. 100% like it's almost like dead on. Like, show me a video. Yeah, the pictures, the pictures, the ball's coming, and your kid hasn't moved yet, and they think they can load after that. I mean, it's just it's like it's not Bobby Minor: Yeah. ben: it's not that. Like, if you're I would say The biggest telltale sign is, you know, when we're facing real pitchers, not batting practice pitchers, or especially not a machine. A machine hitting is so much easier when it's predictable, and that's what hitting off a machine is, right? I know what I'm getting. We can all we can all figure it out after about 10 minutes. Unpredictability is the problem. Well, when the pitcher is unpredictable, the more unpredictable they are, the better they are. That's where like I've got to make decisions as a hitter. Like I've started my swing, but adjusting my swing up and down, especially, is where you want back control. And if you can't adjust a bat, if you watch major leaguers and all the small adjustments they make to hit a pitch that's cutting or diving or this and that, that's where bat control really matters. You know, kind of up and down. So like if it's too heavy and you can't control it, like a C243 probably. Bobby Minor: Yeah. ben: Lighter swing weight. Like you gotta find that sweet spot between adjustability and loss of power. You know what I mean? And if you're not Bobby Minor: Yeah. ben: hitting the ball consistently hard enough, like who cares about the power? Like to be honest with you. Like, I mean, if you square it up, it's gonna go. Well if you don't, it's not. Do you need do you need five more feet, ten more feet on the the one home run you hit a year? Bobby Minor: Yeah. ben: 'Cause you're not going very far without with with with with that lack of contact. And what's so cool, I watched the All-Star Game. Which let's let's also acknowledge that they have their real uniforms on again, which is like the best decision visually baseball has made in forty years. Bobby Minor: Yes, yes. Yeah, for sure. ben: And that's coming from a designer. I think they lose all their mystique without those. But there's a real thing. I watched the draft and I watched the all-star game and contact is coming back. I think I think our era of like swing and miss and home run only and exit below and you know launch angle, like people are realizing that and it made the game boring to me. It's like there's we wanna see hard contact and play and defense and plays and triples and all this kind of stuff. And they're drafting kids, like they're really the scouts are really looking at you know, like whiff rate and things like that now. So be a deadly hitter, man. Like be a Be a pla be a guy at the plate that like there are a lot a lot of holes in my in my in my game, in my arsenal. Like if if if you're a one trick pony at the plate, and the h the older you get, they're gonna figure out pretty quick. And so it's just kind of like I hate to see kids I mean I think that's the correlation between exit v low that I see and the lack of ability to learn to hit. I'm like, you're worried about this one thing, but there's so many ways to beat a pitcher in the batter's box. Bobby Minor: Yeah. ben: So choose choose a weapon that you wield well to do that with. And I I do think that we're turning a corner on all this and we're getting back to what I call like complete hitters. Like guys like that just can beat you with the bat as their tool and man, I can't find a way to get this guy out. I mean to me that's the goal as a hitter. To be Bobby Minor: I think guys like Christian Yelich, you know, a few years back that I mean, you know, good power, high average, lots of doubles. But you you're me it's funny you mentioned the draft because I had this conversation with a former scout who was in in the draft room for several years with an American League West team. And I we're I brought up the name of a of a kid that I actually I coached a couple of years that plays for Power Force School, really had I mean hit double di you know fifteen, sixteen home runs, twenty plus steals that went undrafted. And that's what we were we we s we were talking about swing and miss. That, you know, there's a lot of guys that, you know, yeah, they might hit a bunch of bombs now, but their swing and miss is so high and teams are getting away from that. And you mentioned being a contact hitter. Like that's what like how many home runs did you hit your best season in college? ben: In college? Bobby Minor: Yeah. ben: I think my senior hit five. Bobby Minor: Okay. If you were playing today, how many home runs do you think you would hit or could hit? ben: I mean maybe yeah, this is where my kid tries to kick me in the nuts all the time. Cause I I hit like ten my senior year in high school and he went to the same high school and he's like, But you wouldn't do that today 'cause of the bat. And I'm like, okay, maybe I hit eight. so maybe I would have hit to with today's batons college, I bet I would've turned that into six or seven or eight. I don't think it's like money, you know? Because I have to make contact with the ball. I have to Bobby Minor: No, but that's what I was tell I was telling myself. Yes. ben: I have to hit I still have to move the bat. to the ball. That is way harder than how the bat affects how Bobby Minor: Yeah. ben: far that ball goes. Bobby Minor: But that's what I was telling my son, I was like, I didn't hit I didn't hit home runs when I was playing because I wasn't trying to hit home runs. You weren't gonna strike me out. Because like back then you almost had hitters had roles. Like I was a left handed bat, I was a get on b base guy. You know, you were not gonna strike me out, but I wouldn't even try to hit home runs. If I would have tried to just hit home runs and I didn't care, I probably would've hit a lot. You know, not a lot, I wouldn't be a thirty home run guy, you know what mean? But like it's just different. Yeah. ben: But you sacrifice you sacrifice something else and usually that sacrifice doesn't help your team very much. So Bobby Minor: Yeah, but I mean, you were not gonna strike me out and I was gonna get on base however, you know, however I had to. But all right, so let me ask less we're let's we'll kind of transition back to the the USA high school bats and that's where we'll we'll land the plane. What do you th okay, this cause this is another thing that a a lot of people have commented. you know, they're just doing this so that way they can sell more bats. Do ben: Yeah. Bobby Minor: you think now that Because you're gonna have drop four, drop five, and drop six for high school players that war stick is gonna sell a ton more bats. ben: I would say ton more. We're gonna sell more because there's a new there's a new period of time where you're more likely now to want to, not necessarily need to buy some more iterations in these drop weights. I think there's the healthy side of that. Like I totally get the perspective of like the big jump from, you know, like Minus 10 to minus 8 to minus 5, but I think that that that transition was pretty good. I don't know that we just kind of made it more detailed. Right? But like the idea that well I can't speak for all back companies. I could be things I don't know, but like I know that we weren't asked about this. Right? We weren't asked by USA Baseball or we didn't go to USA baseball and tell them, hey. We could make a lot more money here if you created a new category of bats, which is really what this is. And we in hi in i i in influence them to do that. Like I can't I don't know all that goes on in the world. but I don't You know, it it's not a conspiracy theory that I like to worry about. I mean it's a new standard that's available. I get the reasoning behind it to a certain extent. Great. I make I make bats that we're allowed to make and that's what I love to make bats. So the challenge of like figuring out how to make these bats is is fun and it's exciting. And because I really care about players finding a bat that they swing well, I think that does enhance our options for them. And for me, I'm like, sounds great. I'm in. I'm gonna I'm gonna work on that. I'm gonna do that. I wish we had a little more time. Two thousand twenty eight's gonna come up really fast because we'll be selling those bats. Like there'll be people selling those bats. I wouldn't be surprised if one pops up, you know, in the next couple weeks. but yeah, we I don't I I think the conspiracy theorists are, you know, let bat companies are against all people and You know, that we're trying to screw him over and I mean I I don't I don't I don't really feel that on our end. you know, I I I as far as why USA baseball took it over, I can see why US I mean it was really is explained to us that USA baseball was taking it over from the NCAA because NCAA is like, you know, where why why are we doing this? Like this isn't You know, this it does it does make more sense that they they got they got enough on their plate right now, the NCA and things to deal with. So like they're they're bringing that off their plate was the big transition here. But it does cause it's gonna cause bat prices to possibly raise because now there's a licensing fee that bat companies have to pay to USA baseball whereas when it was just in TA there was zero there was no licensing fee so now every time someone buys a USA bat it's been like this in USA baseball for a long time you know we hand over a little portion of that to USA baseball and now that's expanded up to the older kids And so those licensing fees now will be paid on on those bats as well. So that's new. I don't love it, but like everybody has to do it. So I'm always in for you know, when you go to a baseball game and it's raining and whatever, you you try to beat the other team. You're both dealing with the same thing. So I don't really overthink that stuff, you know. Bobby Minor: So I so I think it's safe to say and I I don't I'm not I'm not speaking for you or anything, but so the bat companies had nothing to do with this, but just based on what you said, USA baseball will benefit greatly from it because what were they selling prior to this? Just like little league bats or I mean like ben: USA bats. Yeah, USA bats, you know, you got your minus tens, minus eights and minus fives. So you're really kinda mostly talking about, you know, your little league, little league teams, Babe Ruth, Cal Ritken, all that kind of stuff. And thirty two inch is the longest that had been made in the past, minus five. So that's the biggest, heaviest bat that was made. So there's that is definitely expanding now. And Bobby Minor: Yeah. ben: Now you got the the minus four, five, and six. so again, it's this kind of like I understand the needs the the you know, the ninth graders who, you know, s you know, still haven't really got closer to their adult weight size and stuff like that and they're they're struggling to handle a minus three. you know, like but it it will put more money into USA baseball. But you know, I USA baseball is also what contributes to our rec environment that I still think is hugely important in a in the country. So I mean, I just I'm an I'm I'm an optimist and I you know and I I I feel like you know, to some s I mean and you I you know, we have so many different variations of youth baseball going on and it's just kind of like simplicity. Bobby Minor: It's crazy. ben: I I'm always a big fan of simplifying what you can as well. So Bobby Minor: Well ben: it could it could simplify some things, in the grand scheme of of all the options out there and what we find to be important and what we don't and and all this kind of stuff. So you know, I I I've enjoyed like I the thing is for as far as Warstick's concerned, me designing products for USA baseball players, it's fantastic. It's it's it's the it's it's the biggest mouth help most healthy part of of of what we do because at the younger ages, more kids play baseball. Baseball's really hard, so the older they get, the the fewer of them there are. You know, so I love the the the coolest part of being a batmaker is always like the younger kids because they're discovering the joy of what it's like to hit a baseball heart. And like I know what that feels like and I know what mom sounds like when that happens and stuff. And it's like so you know, USA baseball has been about the younger kids. It's just about to get a little older. you know. Bobby Minor: Yeah. Like I like I know like a lot of people said, Hey, this is gonna be great for those, you know, smaller, late bloomers when they get to high school and everything. But I'm gonna be honest, Ben, in my experience, the only players that I've seen that struggled swinging a drop three when they get to high school are the players that never picked up a drop three until they got to high school. You know, they play you know with their fourteen you still swinging a drop five, which if they're if you're fourteen and you're swinging a drop five, your coach is doing a disservice to you. Like, you know, like we when Julian, my son was fourteen, like his team, they swung b they swung drop threes the entire season, regardless of who we're, you know, if the team we're playing against swinging drop five. So when they got to high school, they were ready because they've been swinging a drop three for a year and it, you know, they didn't suffer for it. ben: Yeah, my son my son Shaw, my youngest son, who's about to go to college baseball here in three weeks, I remember when his team, you know, they were minus five, like there was that full year of minus five, and then there was the year where they could have swung it, but like Shaw and a couple kids were like, Hey, we need to get ready for high school here more than we need to hit four hundred this summer. And they all just kind of said, let's do this, and they all did it as a group, and it's really cool because everybody was like, All for one, one for all. And they got used to it. And it really meant we gotta get more on time with the pitcher. You know, I the only advantage I will say and so they became better hitters that summer by learning to get more in sync with the pitcher, I would say, is what they were doing, whether they realize it or not. And they had more confidence when they tried out as ninth graders. That's in Texas here, that's when you try out for high school baseball. That's I think a lot of those kids, you know, they were more ready for that and they were more prepared. But, you know, I can't say that there is an advantage We talked about this a while ago, like adjustability in the zone, kind of up and down. And as I'm adjusting to a pitch, the lighter the thing in my hand, the the more the easier it is for my body to move and adjust and change its path. Bobby Minor: Mm-hmm. ben: That that's real. It's just that you're not going to hit the ball as hard. So the trade-off is I think it becomes easier to hit if hitting is about putting a bat flush to a baseball and moving it forward. Sure, kinda easier. There's a little it there's a new little advantage in there. But guess what that will do? I haven't thought about this, but you know, we've gone through this era of pitchers just trying to throw as hard as they can. Well Hitters have adjusted to that. So I think what's gonna happen is we're gonna get better pitchers in the next X amount of years because pitchers are gonna have to learn to pitch again. Deception, movement, getting kids to chase. Like, I would have loved to hit in the in the era we just came came through because I love my myself fastball. I was as dead red as they could as you could get. So I would have loved to play in that era. But I played, you know, like but If a kid today, I would love for Greg Maddox to come back as an eighteen year old and just watch him throw a high school game and just just watch the struggle. And just Bobby Minor: yeah. ben: man, it would be you know, that kind of I do think that kind of pitcher is coming back. And it's starting to be, you know, so everything kind of works itself out. But like we're gonna get better pitchers maybe because of these bats because they're gonna have to work hard work harder to be more deceptive, maybe. That's the that's the bigger thing. to me than the exit velo thing. Everybody's freaking out about the wrong a wrong thing. So Bobby Minor: So all good stuff, Ben. All right, last question. This is where this is where we'll we'll wrap it up. Cause yeah I know you've said, you know, it's more about how how a bat feels to a particular batter. So your youngest son is getting ready to go play college baseball. He comes to you and he says, Dad I wanna swing I'm not gonna say I won't say any other manufacturers. I wanna swing this bat that's not a war stick, not a bone saber. I wanna swing this bat because it feels better to me. What's your what's your response? ben: You like real in real life if this really happened? Bobby Minor: Yeah, yeah. ben: I I would let him do it. I mean I I I can't put myself in front of the hitter. I Bobby Minor: Yeah. ben: mean, I've had people like no one believes this, but like if someone came into our store and did and you know and hit and tried all our bats and stuff and I'm looking at and going, you need a bat more like this, like that could be like right now in our lineup we don't have something like really heavy like the goods that almost no high school hitter really should be hitting with. But if that kid came into the store and was trying our bats and I was like, You're gonna hit best with that, I'd tell him to go buy the goods. Cause I'm a hitter. I don't wanna I'm it it is what it is. first of all my son would never do that to me. Bobby Minor: Yeah. ben: but my son, I mean I think the bigger thing is that Warstick has my son's grown up I bet my son Now that I think about it, bet my youngest son has swung a warstick bat more than any human on the planet. It's probably true. he Bobby Minor: I can see that. ben: was the youngest when I started it and when we started having metal bats. But like he kind of as much as anybody understands that like the differences between bats are not about the performance ceiling. So he's very comfortable in the options he he has on the table, especially now in BB Corp, to go like, well, and he moves around with them. A little bit, depending on how he's feeling or what he's working on and stuff. And like this summer he played college summer ball to get ready for that new VLO and the older kids. He was a seventeen year old playing with twenty one, twenty two year olds, which was what the whole goal was this summer and you know, and then he took some time he could have kept playing more, but he's like, Okay, I'm gonna work spend the rest of the summer on making improvements to my swing and my setup based on what I learned this summer and stuff. And so like in the last couple weeks, like he's made some incredible tweaks to his setup and his swing that are like making it to where he's like, hey, I think I can go with the terracane now because I'm and I'm like, yeah, because you're you're you're the the base of what you're doing has improved and you can handle it. And he's like, yeah. And so he's going to a heavier bat because he c because he can handle it. Not because he got stronger, but because his his mechanics have cleaned up and the way that he's loading and the way that he's moving the bat is like, Hey, you're not losing adjustability now, so go do it, you know. So he just understands more than kinda like, you know, he has the benefit of kind of being around it more and understanding it. And which is also like, you know, he doesn't he doesn't he doesn't sit there with the other kids and have FOMO about some new hot thing, 'cause he knows That part of it is like, You know, he might pick it up, you know, if he if it's if he actually swung it better or something. But I've never it's weird. I've never really had him complain about that in all these years. And he's seventeen. He started playing baseball when he's whatever, four, so. and he's going to a place, luckily, where he can continue to swing war stick. but you know, Bobby Minor: yeah. ben: like I said, people I mean he had offers, he had sixty-one offers. Half of those he would never never be able to swing Warstick. Ever. Bobby Minor: Yeah. ben: And what I was gonna if he picked the school, he picked the school. I'd probably like punch him in the gut a little bit on it, but like, you know, it is what it is. Like I'm not gonna put myself in front of the the players what the players' path and what they're doing, you know, but Bobby Minor: Well, good stuff, man. So Ben, as always, I really appreciate your time. I appreciate your I just feel like you're you're just real. Like you're not, you know, I mean, obviously I mean, you're the CEO of Warskate. You want to still ben: I I am, not AI. Bobby Minor: Yeah, you're not well, yeah, that's true. you just but yeah, I mean, you get it. And I feel like you're just you're you're genuine in everything that you talk about. So I know I personally appreciate that. I know a lot of people that that watch appreciate it. So I be absolute. ben: No problem. I mean life's too short to just try to paint a rosy picture and sell everything. Like I just you know, like I don't I don't believe you I don't also believe that every brand is trying to be for every person or needs to be. so I'm also like not you know, if I ruffle feathers by something I say and it's not your cup of tea, that's totally okay. Bobby Minor: That's that's why like, you know, I don't I I get ninety-nine percent of the comments I get are very positive, but I always have that one person that's trying to I don't know what they're trying to do. And I I just want to tell them, look, that's the beauty of the internet. If you don't like what I'm saying, you don't agree with what I'm saying, you don't have to watch my videos. You don't have ben: Yeah. Bobby Minor: to you know, you don't have to comment. You can go some you know. So that's the beauty of it. But anyway ben: usually get more in yeah I know I get it. I usually get in trouble more for other things like being too honest or truthful, which I'm not really trying to be like a better person than someone. It's just kind of like I you know like our most liked video of all time on Instagram I think is one I did we did a our our our number one bat at the time ranked came out and the new version came out and I told everybody on the internet that it was absolutely a repaint. Because I didn't want to try to fake anybody out that we had changed any technology or anything like that. I also didn't I wanted them to know that we hadn't ruined the bat. But you wouldn't believe like the appreciation that came out for that post because they were so shocked that a business person would tell the truth. And I was like, to me, I was like, is that a thing? Like, it just feels Bobby Minor: Yeah. ben: like, you know, but I mean that's I think that's good. I mean, in this age of AI and Knowing what's real and what's fake is getting harder. So it'll be pretty easy for me 'cause I'm just with with the with the being on the spectrum here and the the truth things coming out, like it's gonna be a little hard for me to not just continue to be real. So I guess it's a attribute that I've grown into. So anyway. Bobby Minor: Well, as always, man, I appreciate it. I'm sure we will will you'll be back on again here soon. Will there be something bat related or baseball related we can talk about? ben: Yeah, we'll wait for the next big controversy and then we'll we'll chat about it. I mean, see you later. Bobby Minor: All right. Sounds good, Ben. Thanks a lot, man.