Latest / Women Disrupting Tech / Why Women In Tech Can't Fix the System Alone with Femke Brouwer-Hobbelen | Ep. 113

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Why Women In Tech Can't Fix the System Alone with Femke Brouwer-Hobbelen | Ep. 113 · Women Disrupting Tech

• 0:00
  Well, same goes for how we interpret behavior.
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  When a man speaks up, he's seen as confident, assertive, or
• 0:07
  really strong leader. But when a woman woman does the
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  same, she might be labeled as bossy, difficult, and even
• 0:15
  aggressive. Sometimes that makes it harder
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  for women to be taken seriously or seen as natural leaders.
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  Welcome to Women Disrupting Tech.
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  My name is dear Ken Lucas, and on this podcast, I give the
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  women who work in tech the platform they need to inspire
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  and empower each other. Join me on your journey into the
• 0:45
  world of entrepreneurship, funding biases, and role models
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  to discover the strategies for success in the tech industry.
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  In other words, how women can disrupt tech.
• 0:57
  Are you ready to listen? Hey, welcome back to Women
• 1:07
  Disrupting Tech, and thank you for tuning in to episode 113.
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  So what if tech didn't look like a guy in hoodie coding alone in
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  a darkroom? That question sits at the heart
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  of this episode titled Why Women in Tech Can't Fix the System
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  Alone. I talked to Femke Brauer
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  Hoebelen. She's a seasoned leader in tech
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  who never quite fit the stereotype and never needed to.
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  We talk about what happens when women are told to lean in to a
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  system that wasn't built for them, how she found out she was
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  underpaid, and why fixing the system means involving people
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  who still hold most of the power.
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  Femka doesn't just name the problem, she offers a path
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  forward too, from how we raise our daughters to how we build
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  more inclusive leadership. And she leaves us with this.
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  It's not about taking something away from men.
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  It's about creating a system where everyone has a fair chance
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  to thrive. So when you're ready to start
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  building a future like this, please.
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  Welcome to Women Disrupting Tech Femke Brauer.
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  Hoebleun Femke Brauer, welcome to women disrupting tech.
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  Good to have you Question. I always ask at the start is how
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  you got into your current job or current position.
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  Well, I actually stumbled into IT tech back in 2000 quite by
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  accident. I started in a marketing role as
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  AIT Reseller and I never really left the industry after that.
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  Such an innovative environment with plenty of exciting and
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  challenging roles and solutions. During the first ten years I
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  worked in various commercial roles, sales, marketing, partner
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  sales, both at big organisations like Microsoft and HP and at
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  smaller companies as well. My career for example.
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  Eventually I moved into leadership roles.
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  I started as a team lead and then took on a small managerial
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  role at the startup and laid their progress to more senior
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  positions at companies like Dell.
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  There I was responsible as a senior manager for a partner
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  sales team in direct and direct roles, managing about 25 people
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  and overseeing around 130 million in revenue.
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  And I learned a lot, especially that I really enjoy leading
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  large teams with a lot of responsibility and I try some
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  challenges in the workplace. Well, over time, I did also
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  realize that larger organizations no longer suited
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  me very much to inflexible, limited freedom.
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  Office politics are restricted mandates.
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  So that's why in recent years I've taken on a CEOCEO roles at
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  smaller companies, helping them grow sustainably and
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  professionalize the internal organizations.
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  And while one of the question is how did I get to this level, I
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  think of course I've worked hard, kept developing myself,
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  built strong networks and especially stay persistent.
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  You hear a lot of know quite a lot of times before you get a
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  yes, especially when you don't follow the most of this path.
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  But I also had a few key people, in my case mostly men, who saw
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  potentially me and opened the doors.
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  So that made a real difference. And yes, timing and being in the
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  right place at the right time matter, too.
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  I often say there are so many women with the same skills,
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  knowledge and right who don't get these opportunities.
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  So it really is a mix of perseverance, opportunity and
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  sometimes a bit of luck. Yeah.
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  So that's in a nutshell my career so far.
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  OK, cool. So we're going to talk a bit
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  about the why the system is broken and why it's not the
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  system needs to be fixed and not to women, essentially, because
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  as I remember it, it was a comment that you made on one of
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  my LinkedIn posts about two years ago that we should fix.
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  Yeah, it's been a while in making this episode, but why do
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  you believe that the system is broken and that we need to fix
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  the system? Well, unfortunately, even today
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  we're not living in a true meritocracy, The idea that
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  people advance purely based on the talent and hard work,
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  regardless of gender or background, even though some
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  people would like us to believe we are.
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  When I first started working, I believed it too, but over the
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  course of my career, my perspective really shifted.
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  You can see there's so many areas, the persistent gender
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  pray gap, fewer women in senior leadership roles, products or
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  technologies designed primarily for what they call default men
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  in tech. For example, I'm often the only
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  women at the senior leadership table among 25 or 30 men, and
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  that can be very frustrating and sadly it leads to many women
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  leaving field in my experience. But the inequality isn't just
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  the work, it shows up at home too.
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  Society is still largely structured around women taking
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  most of the households and childcare responsibilities.
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  Childcare systems are often very rigid and flexible, making it
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  harder for women to combine career and family life.
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  And it even goes deeper. The system is embedded in almost
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  everything, our school system, healthcare, technology, it's
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  incredibly complex and honestly it's hard to impact fully in one
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  podcast conversation. But in my experience, once you
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  start seeing it, you really can't and see it.
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  And there's something important to mention, the system doesn't
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  only hurt women, men are affected by it too.
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  In fact, we're all part of it and whether we realise or not,
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  but not everyone sees it because it's system.
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  The system often benefit those who are already in a position of
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  privilege. But if we really want to change
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  things about women and men, we both, We need both women and men
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  to be part of the solution. Only then we can start to create
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  real, lasting change and ensure that opportunities in
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  organization and in society at large are true, truly equal for
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  everyone. Yeah.
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  So how are men affected here in this case?
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  Well, what I see for example, is that a man do not get the
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  opportunity to work four days a week to take care of the
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  children or they're not allowed to express any emotions or there
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  are a lot of examples. If you dive deeper into that,
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  it's like affecting them a lot as well.
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  And what are the effects especially just curious because
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  not allowed to take four days a week off or a day a week off to
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  take care of the children. From a personal experience,
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  everyone almost at ING and and and worked four days a week.
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  Working five days a week was even at at the time.
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  This is 2015 to through 2018. Even frowned upon is that is
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  that different in smaller organizations then?
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  No, it wasn't allowed at Dell at larger IT companies either.
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  I even had to fight for half a day off so work 4 1/2 days
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  because they didn't have like the contracts even to support
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  it. OK, interesting that that I
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  didn't know that the IT culture was such that it was really
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  standard for five days a week, 8 hours a day probably then.
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  Yeah. Well, I'm not sure if it's at
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  every large IT organization, but I've experienced that at several
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  companies. OK, and and large and small.
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  Yes. OK, So going back to something
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  you said earlier. So this this system is ingrained
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  everywhere. It's also in our in our
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  upbringing, in our school system.
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  So what can you give some examples of where it is embedded
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  in the school system? Well, because you see a lot of
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  studies that boys and girls are approached differently.
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  There are a lot of gender biased ideas about how a boy and a girl
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  should do behave and what they should be interested in.
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  Girls should be more like the nurturing, nice type of girl.
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  Boys should be interested in techniques and all types of
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  building toys and stuff like that.
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  So it really starts at the early age.
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  And I'm going to elaborate that later on in another question you
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  asked me. But yeah, it's it's it's very
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  important because when girls doesn't see themselves in like
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  technical roles or they get like demotivated to do it, then
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  change will never happen. Or not at the scale we would
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  like it to be. You know, if we, if you, you
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  can't be what you can't see. Right.
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  That's that's an important thing it.
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  Is very important and that's why I did some role modelling
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  campaigns as well. I was wondering what, what
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  elements of this system do you do you think need to be fixed
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  and how can we start approaching that?
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  So how can we fix education? How we can we fix how we
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  approach gender stereotypes? I think one of the core problems
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  is that women are still not judged the same to the same
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  standards as men. With men, we often look at the
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  potential, what they could grow into.
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  With women we tend to focus on our track record, what they've
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  already done, and even then there's often still doubt if
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  they could do it. There have been studies where
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  identical resumes CVS were sent out, the only different being
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  the name on the top, one male, one female.
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  And what happened? The male CVS resumes were
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  constantly rated higher even though the continent was exactly
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  the same, so that's a sign of clear bias.
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  And this is still happening in the workforce all.
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  Same goes for how we interpret behavior.
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  When a man speaks up, you're seen as confident, assertive or
• 12:34
  really strong leader. But when a woman woman does the
• 12:38
  same, she might be labeled as bossy, difficult, and even
• 12:42
  aggressive. Sometimes that makes it harder
• 12:46
  for women to be taken seriously or seen as natural leaders.
• 12:49
  And when it when it gets a bit worse, when you go higher up the
• 12:54
  organization at entry level, the gender ratio is often pretty
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  balanced. But if you as you move forward,
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  senior leadership women starts to disappear.
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  So somewhere along the way, the system isn't working.
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  And that's why we really need to focus our attention on.
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  OK, so how do women not filter through to the higher parts of
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  an organization? What happens somewhere in
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  between? Yeah.
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  Well, that's a really complex question because it really
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  depends on the organization culture, how we perceive women,
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  but also the situation at home because usually during the
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  course of time they start a family and they have like other
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  responsibilities, etcetera, etcetera.
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  So it's it's, it's quite complex, but hopefully after
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  listening this podcast, you will get a bit of insight about that
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  as well. What also matters within
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  organization is what I call critical mess.
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  Research showed that real, lasting change only happens when
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  at least 30% of a team or leadership group is made-up of
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  women. Otherwise, women remain the
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  exception and the culture doesn't really shift.
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  Language plays a role, too. Historically, women have often
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  been addressed in ways that kind of undermine their authority.
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  For example, calling a professional women or a senior
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  leader girl may seem harmless, but it makes it harder for
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  people to take her seriously by others and sometimes by yourself
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  as well. And this is actually a real
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  example from like 3 weeks ago. The CEO was called girl in front
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  of an audience. We also need to recognize that
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  it's not enough to tell women to speak up more or negotiate
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  harder. I think those things matter, of
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  course, but if only if the system rewards them fairly when
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  they do. That means rethinking how we
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  define leadership, performance, and success and adjust the
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  system to those values to reflect that.
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  And the last point I would like to make is that, of course, this
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  isn't just about women, people from other underrepresented
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  backgrounds, but because of race, disability, age, or
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  anything else face face similar invisible barriers.
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  So real equality means redesigning the system for
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  everyone, not just for one group.
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  No true. It's even for for people, let's
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  say over 5055, they are seen as like, OK, you're on your way to
• 15:50
  your retirement. So we're not going to promote
• 15:53
  you even though you could or we're not going to hire you
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  because you're going to go year round for for another 30 years.
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  You do something on the side. I can tell you from personal
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  experience that this hurts you because people will or employers
• 16:08
  will say, well, yeah, that's you're not completely loyal to
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  us, so maybe we shouldn't hire you and maybe you want to go
• 16:20
  away in three years, which is like light year way if you ask
• 16:24
  me. Nobody, no one can predict.
• 16:27
  So if it's OK to to go to the next question, what what are the
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  hidden cost of this to women but also to society?
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  Yeah, well, I think the hidden cost for women adapting to this
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  system is huge, personally and financial.
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  The gender pay gap remains a big challenge, women earning less
• 16:48
  than men for the same work. And in the Netherlands, it's
• 16:52
  also linked to the fact that many women work part time
• 16:56
  because they take home more household and childcare
• 16:59
  responsibility. And in the current system, part
• 17:03
  time work usually means lower pay, fewer promotions and slower
• 17:07
  career growth progression. Well, when it comes to
• 17:11
  entrepreneurship, women LED startups get only a small share
• 17:16
  of the investment capital compared to men.
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  Many women have to bootstrap or self fund their businesses,
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  limiting their ability to grow and scale, which creates an
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  uneven playing field where women have to work harder with fewer
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  resources. And that's a loss for society
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  too because we miss out on diverse innovation and
• 17:36
  perspective. So to fix this, it's not enough
• 17:41
  to tell people to work, tell women to work harder or be more
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  entrepreneurial. We need to change how investors
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  and organization think, create fairer funding processes, and
• 17:53
  actively support women with mentorships and net and networks
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  because I'm convinced that when the system works for everyone,
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  we unlock the potential of everyone and that benefits us
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  all. Yeah, So what, what, what
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  experiences did you run into yourself?
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  So you mentioned at the beginning that you were lucky to
• 18:15
  have a few good men support you. Yes, sure.
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  That's important. That's very, very important.
• 18:24
  Yeah. But well, I I can give you a few
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  examples. My own experience with the
• 18:31
  gender pay gap for example, made it very real for me.
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  At 1 employer, I found out that I was earning significantly less
• 18:40
  than my male colleagues even though we had similar roles and
• 18:44
  experiences. How did you find out?
• 18:47
  Did you? Ask because I talked to a
• 18:48
  colleague and because a manager sort of mentioned it during a
• 18:55
  review conversation. And then I started digging.
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  Yeah, OK. Because I wasn't aware of even
• 19:06
  that there would be a Jenna page.
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  I wasn't aware of a Jenna page at all at the time, and it
• 19:11
  really felt unfair and frustrating.
• 19:13
  And later on, the organization tried to close the gap and
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  suddenly they offered me like a 10% range raise.
• 19:23
  Like, huh? But yeah, it's really strange to
• 19:30
  discover this. And you have.
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  And after digging into it myself, of course, and I think
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  it shouldn't have been something I had to find out.
• 19:40
  Quite disappointing. Yeah.
• 19:42
  Did you feel cheated, Paul? Well, or taking advantage of.
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  It was not like respectful and I didn't feel recognised.
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  That's was more my, my feeling about it.
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  But it, it's really unfair as well, of course.
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  So I felt that too, yeah. And I do have another example
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  which is quite stunning as well. I think I was already in a
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  senior leadership position and my manager made a comment.
• 20:14
  He said something like, well, you're already earning a lot.
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  I think for women that's what he meant.
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  I'm not sure. And your husband has a good
• 20:24
  salary too so you don't need a raise.
• 20:26
  And that moment showed me how unconscious bias can show up
• 20:30
  even in in subtle ways. Or I'm not sure if this is
• 20:34
  subtle and how outdated perceptions are about general
• 20:38
  rules and money. And this still influence
• 20:41
  decisions in boards, apparently. I don't consider it subtle in
• 20:47
  any way. Shape or form, but it was like
• 20:52
  sort of one line in a conversation.
• 20:55
  So it afterwards it's just. What, out of curiosity, what did
• 21:01
  it do to your to you as a person, did you like think?
• 21:06
  Because I've spoken to women who were in the same situation and
• 21:11
  one actually an episode that airs on the day that we record
• 21:15
  this, decided to pack up our bags that day and just leave,
• 21:22
  Say, OK, well apparently you don't want me so I'm just going
• 21:26
  to take my whole business elsewhere.
• 21:29
  But what? What was your response?
• 21:30
  Well, I really realized afterwards because it was like a
• 21:38
  longer conversation and then I felt like this is so traditional
• 21:43
  and we're still still here. I thought we were like her in
• 21:48
  the process, so why is she saying this?
• 21:52
  And then I actually talked to him about it and asked him, why
• 21:59
  did you say that? And what do you think that is
• 22:04
  that this is doing to me? And I don't think it's fair.
• 22:09
  And then he said, yeah, well, I understand what you're saying,
• 22:12
  but I'm not sure if he didn't do it like another time because
• 22:16
  it's it's, it's, it's apparently it's, it's, it's, it's still in
• 22:22
  the system of a lot of people unconsciously.
• 22:26
  Yeah, that's that's, it's quite normal to have the men earn the
• 22:33
  money and the woman stay at home because that's I think where
• 22:37
  most of these discussions start. Yeah.
• 22:41
  So you talked about critical mass, about having that we have
• 22:49
  to ensure that tech or that companies in general have at
• 22:55
  least 30% women. Why is it important not only to
• 23:00
  look at, let's say the technical parts of company, but like
• 23:05
  broader as well, like commercial and yeah, also leadership?
• 23:10
  Well, I think indeed the conversation should be broader
• 23:15
  than focusing on technical roles and founders.
• 23:18
  I hear that a lot because tech is so much more than coding or
• 23:22
  building a company from scratch. And I think when we change the
• 23:26
  image of what tech really means, we need more women, girls, and
• 23:31
  maybe other underrepresented groups will become interested
• 23:35
  because working with new technologies and solving real
• 23:37
  problem is generally very, very exciting in my teams.
• 23:43
  We need great listeners who understand customer needs and
• 23:47
  translate those into tech solutions.
• 23:49
  Sure, technical development is crucial, but just as important
• 23:54
  is translating that into business and impacts and then
• 23:58
  you will create lasting change. And I see or I hear that tech is
• 24:04
  often seen very narrowly, like the guy in Woody coding alone in
• 24:09
  a dark room. But there are so many diverse
• 24:14
  roles where collaboration drives real innovation.
• 24:17
  I actually started my tech career in sales and marketing,
• 24:20
  as I mentioned before, but the narrow view really makes it
• 24:25
  harder. And that's also my own
• 24:28
  experience because I, I, I taught at elementary schools,
• 24:33
  it's harder to attract girls and women to tech.
• 24:37
  And the education system should change this by showing kids from
• 24:41
  a very young age how broad and exciting tech really is.
• 24:45
  And I think it's not only for women or in the represented
• 24:50
  groups. Broadening confrontation is also
• 24:52
  vital for the companies themselves because my first team
• 24:57
  bring fresh perspective leading to better ideas, stronger
• 25:00
  solutions, etcetera, etcetera. And it's proven that more women
• 25:05
  in leadership positions means better decision making, more
• 25:10
  impactful innovations. So what we really need and take
• 25:14
  now in my perspective is more female leaders who want to make
• 25:19
  a difference and by recognizing a value all the roles in tech,
• 25:24
  not just coding open store for more women and other groups to
• 25:29
  try, lead and create real impact.
• 25:32
  Yeah, I agree there. Our conversation now, I remember
• 25:36
  our conversation started on LinkedIn with a comment that you
• 25:41
  made on one of my posts around your podcast sort of hinges on
• 25:45
  the idea that my guests have made it so so can you.
• 25:49
  And that's also a bit about what role role modeling is about.
• 25:53
  At least the podcast idea that I have is based on the on the
• 25:59
  assumption, OK, if I show these successful women, then I inspire
• 26:06
  people. Why is that not necessarily true
• 26:11
  that it works that way? Well, I think it's really
• 26:14
  powerful to have role models. I've been one myself that share
• 26:19
  their stories and show what's possible.
• 26:21
  And I'm I'm I'm a huge supporter of women who found success in
• 26:25
  their own way. These stories are incredibly
• 26:28
  important. However, I've listened to some
• 26:31
  of your podcasts where the focus is heavily on the idea of
• 26:34
  meritocracy. If you just work hard enough,
• 26:38
  push yourself, become more visible, or negotiate better,
• 26:42
  every woman can make it. And I don't fully agree with
• 26:45
  that. And recent study backed this up
• 26:48
  as well. There are many women, a lot of
• 26:51
  women who work hard, who are talented and ambitious but still
• 26:55
  don't get the opportunities. Just look at the average
• 26:59
  leadership team within tech. I believe around 10% of mid
• 27:04
  senior leadership roles in tech are by are held by women.
• 27:08
  This is where the system I mentioned earlier comes into
• 27:11
  play again. And if you don't realise that
• 27:14
  you're operating in an environment where you're viewed
• 27:17
  and just judge differently from your colleagues, including all
• 27:21
  the unconscious biases, it's easy to start doubting yourself.
• 27:25
  You think, and this is a real example, I'm doing everything
• 27:28
  what's expected of me, Why is it not being recognized?
• 27:32
  I get better refuse. I've been working hard for three
• 27:35
  years, yet my male colleague with one years of experience
• 27:38
  gets promotion. So from my perspective,
• 27:42
  ambition, determination are very important, but it's crucial to
• 27:48
  understand that you're operating in a an equal field.
• 27:51
  Often it's not about the the woman or effort, but it's also
• 27:56
  about the system. And I've seen cases that no
• 27:59
  matter how to work or learn, sometimes the opportunity just
• 28:04
  isn't there. And when I personally realized
• 28:08
  that, it took me quite a while. I started figuring out I would
• 28:13
  navigate this reality in a way that works for me and not by
• 28:17
  following the usual advice of be visible or negotiate better or
• 28:22
  constantly sending emails about my achievements.
• 28:25
  That was expected in the larger IT companies, but by finding my
• 28:30
  approach. And that still got noticed.
• 28:34
  And over time I developed my own leadership style.
• 28:37
  Result driven yet empathetic, always keeping people at the
• 28:41
  centre. And I think it's about finding
• 28:45
  your your authentic way to succeed within a system that
• 28:49
  still needs change. And I that's why I think these
• 28:54
  conversations are so important, because change will only happen
• 28:58
  if we all recognize more or less the bigger picture and not just
• 29:02
  the individual effort. Yeah, that that I agree with.
• 29:07
  So how do we how do we get there?
• 29:13
  Do we flood the system with women as one of my previous
• 29:17
  guests said? Is that is that the solution?
• 29:19
  We just. No, I, I, well, I don't think
• 29:24
  so. But this is very complicated
• 29:26
  question as well, because we really need to do it together,
• 29:31
  men and women. So we really need to find a
• 29:35
  system which works for everyone. And I'm not sure if that's like
• 29:41
  flooding the system with women. I'm not sure.
• 29:44
  Me neither, but I was just curious so we'll get you.
• 29:48
  You need like balanced teams to get like the most successful
• 29:52
  outcome. So you both need men and women.
• 29:55
  But then it's important that women get the chance.
• 30:00
  Yeah. And how do we get to that point?
• 30:02
  Yes. OK.
• 30:03
  So we also talked about English. We're recording this in English
• 30:11
  as as a barrier to or as a potential barrier.
• 30:15
  So I come from La La Land, where everyone speaks, almost everyone
• 30:21
  speaks proper English. We before we started, I
• 30:24
  discussed one manager that didn't, who was really high up,
• 30:28
  which to me was like really shocking.
• 30:31
  So remember a Prime Minister who was talking about a country?
• 30:38
  I remember hearing that. And like, OK, so you're
• 30:42
  representing an entire country. Why can't you even pronounce
• 30:47
  this word correctly? Right, but.
• 30:51
  What what is the the role of of English here?
• 30:54
  Well, I'm Speaking of the Netherlands and it's often
• 30:57
  assumed that everyone speaks English very well or feel
• 31:00
  comfortable using it. And there are really signs that,
• 31:04
  for example, women with patient education backgrounds like MBO
• 31:09
  called in the Netherlands, face real language barrier.
• 31:15
  So many find it very difficult to follow and listen to English
• 31:23
  language podcasts, especially when the topics are complex or
• 31:26
  sensitive. And I believe it's important
• 31:30
  that these women also hear this information, particularly since
• 31:33
  some Dutch specific culture issues come up in the
• 31:37
  conversation. For example, in the Netherlands
• 31:41
  there's a strong motherhood ideology where women are
• 31:44
  expected to work no more than 3.5 days a week once they have
• 31:50
  children, definitely not full time, and this directly affect
• 31:55
  the career progression and ultimately the chance to reach
• 31:59
  leadership roles. On average, women's salaries
• 32:02
  drop around 35% by having a kid, which is known as the child
• 32:07
  penalty. So initially we've discussed
• 32:10
  this before. I would have preferred to do the
• 32:12
  postcards in Dutch to reach more women across different
• 32:16
  backgrounds to make a real impact across all layers of the
• 32:19
  Dutch society. Dutch would have been ideal, but
• 32:24
  I also value of course the chance to connect with an
• 32:28
  English speaking audience. These challenges around women
• 32:32
  and tech leadership are not unique to the Netherlands,
• 32:35
  they're global. I I think so.
• 32:38
  If sharing my story in English can spark recognition or
• 32:41
  inspiration beyond order, that's incredibly meaningful to me as
• 32:45
  well. Yeah.
• 32:47
  And also I think, and that's also why I wanted to give you
• 32:51
  the platform also in English, is that it reaches the audience who
• 32:57
  may not be aware of these brokerages in, in that sense,
• 33:03
  especially of the English part language part.
• 33:06
  Because to me that was sort of, I wouldn't say shocker, but an
• 33:11
  eye opener for sure that I was like, OK, so.
• 33:15
  Because if if I go to my work at an art gallery, I pass by a
• 33:22
  coffee shop and I sometimes I go in and the last time I had to
• 33:27
  order in English because everyone there is so accustomed
• 33:34
  to English. So, but then again, I understand
• 33:40
  that I'm privileged in the sense that I, I've worked in English
• 33:45
  speaking environments for pretty much my whole life, that my
• 33:51
  parents both spoke pretty good English, which I think helps
• 33:56
  that I have had higher education, so not a vocational
• 33:59
  education. So does that also make going to,
• 34:04
  to the vocational women in vocational education for a bit?
• 34:08
  Does that also make IT more difficult to enter because there
• 34:13
  is so much English? I mean the whole terminology in
• 34:17
  in IT is is pretty much English. Yeah, yeah, probably.
• 34:24
  It's harder to learn in a different language.
• 34:28
  Yeah. But I, I think most of the
• 34:30
  lessons at MBO, what I understood from a professor, are
• 34:35
  mainly in Dutch, like only the work related terminologies in
• 34:39
  English. So maybe, well, I guess then
• 34:43
  it's doable. And I think it's a bit different
• 34:48
  if you're like, you need to listen to a full conversation in
• 34:54
  English or have a conversation in English or only use like
• 35:00
  typical work language or IT language and then do the
• 35:05
  explanation in Dutch or have a conversation in Dutch with other
• 35:10
  people's. Yeah.
• 35:11
  And for me, five years ago, it was an eye opener as well.
• 35:16
  Same As for you, because I'm living in my own bubble as well.
• 35:22
  But I think in order to create a real change, we really need to
• 35:27
  have conversations with everyone.
• 35:29
  So it's important to take that into account as well if you want
• 35:35
  to reach a broader audience. It's part of inclusive
• 35:39
  inclusivity as well. Yeah, make people belong.
• 35:45
  So what other role can education play to make tech or tech more
• 35:51
  appealing to women or to girls? Well, I think education can play
• 35:56
  a very important role in getting more girls enthusiastic about
• 35:59
  technology because in my opinion, it starts at a young
• 36:04
  age. We need to be aware of how we
• 36:06
  raise and guide boys and girls and make sure we're not
• 36:09
  unconsciously steering them in different directions.
• 36:13
  I think if we show girls from an early age how fun, creative and
• 36:17
  meaningful tech can be, they're more likely to see it as
• 36:21
  something for them to. Right now the numbers in the
• 36:24
  tech related education in the Netherlands is still quite low.
• 36:28
  For me that's a concern because if fewer girls choose the tech
• 36:33
  part, fewer will make it into the tech force and the imbalance
• 36:37
  will continue. Tech is often seen as something
• 36:40
  for boys and that stereotype old school girls really back.
• 36:45
  The more we can break that image and createspace for girls to
• 36:48
  explore tech, the more progression we'll make.
• 36:52
  And again, it's not all about about numbers because as
• 36:56
  mentioned before, more women in tech means more diverse
• 37:00
  perspective, which leads to more inclusive innovations.
• 37:04
  And when you bring different viewpoints to the table, the
• 37:07
  solution you build are better and more relevant for a wider
• 37:10
  group. So we really need to focus on
• 37:13
  education as well and parents to.
• 37:19
  How do we quote UN quote fix the parents part of the system?
• 37:25
  Well, I'm not sure. I, I, I don't think there's like
• 37:29
  easy solution because it's very cultural, but it starts with
• 37:35
  having a conversation and making parents aware.
• 37:38
  A lot of parents aren't aware of this, yes, but there are a lot
• 37:42
  of very nice videos on YouTube who which really show the
• 37:48
  problem and it starts at like when children are one or two
• 37:54
  months old. My dad can.
• 37:56
  Yeah, they did an experiment, yeah, in in the UK.
• 38:01
  What was the experiment? Well, they filmed some people
• 38:07
  working at the daycare and how they respond to babies who look
• 38:12
  like a boy or look like a girl. So they took one baby first, put
• 38:19
  some girlie's clothing on and looked at how the baby was
• 38:23
  approached and how the daycare worker interacted with the baby.
• 38:29
  And then they put on some boys clothing and looked at that as
• 38:34
  well. The same daycare worker and it
• 38:37
  was very different. They brought different toys,
• 38:41
  they talked differently, et cetera, et cetera.
• 38:45
  It's it's. The same, same baby.
• 38:49
  Same baby but the assumption was a girl or a boy was enough to
• 38:54
  change behaviour. OK, even a daycare worker.
• 38:57
  Yeah. Wow, that's, that's interesting.
• 39:00
  I didn't know it was that deep because at even at that level I
• 39:06
  would expect maybe not the impact to be that big because it
• 39:12
  that when children are. It continues.
• 39:16
  Yeah, yeah. That's the problem and and and
• 39:20
  it's not everyone right, but it's still there.
• 39:24
  So I was wondering, we talked about the system that needs to
• 39:29
  be fixed. We know talked about some of the
• 39:31
  solutions in English as a language barrier.
• 39:36
  How do you contribute to fixing the system within the companies
• 39:42
  you work for? How do you do that?
• 39:45
  How do you? Address Well, at the moment I'm
• 39:47
  in between jobs. I'm not actively working in an
• 39:51
  organization, but in previous roles I always try to contribute
• 39:56
  to change whatever I could. I'm very aware that I can't
• 40:00
  change an entire system on my own, but that doesn't mean you
• 40:04
  can't do anything. In my experience, there are many
• 40:08
  ways to start making a difference.
• 40:09
  Looking critically at recruitment processes,
• 40:12
  addressing the gender pay gap where I needed, and working
• 40:16
  working at create a culture where people can truly be
• 40:20
  themselves. Because culture really matters.
• 40:24
  It's about people. Make sure people feel safe,
• 40:27
  seen, included. And I've also found out that
• 40:32
  having open conversations about the topic really helps.
• 40:36
  I talked to colleagues and leaders to raise awareness and
• 40:40
  to help people recognize the patterns that still exists.
• 40:44
  Because as mentioned before, once you start see the system,
• 40:48
  you can't Unsee it. And the more people become
• 40:52
  aware, the more momentum we will build toward lasting change.
• 40:57
  Most people don't actually agree with inequality, but they just
• 41:02
  don't always realize it's happening right in front of
• 41:04
  them. So that's why I try.
• 41:07
  That's what I try to do within my sphere of influence.
• 41:09
  Even sometimes it feels quite small, but I think if enough of
• 41:14
  us do that, then it can lead so big.
• 41:18
  Do something bigger. That's like, in a nutshell, what
• 41:21
  I do. OK.
• 41:22
  So can you give an example of how you open up these
• 41:26
  conversations? What what, what is that?
• 41:28
  Is that sort of how do you do that?
• 41:32
  Well, sometimes there's like a situation then I just ask an
• 41:39
  open question. So someone in an organization
• 41:43
  A-Team lead already has like 7 people looking like him in the
• 41:47
  team and has decided to hire another person exactly the same
• 41:56
  and just ask why did you hire the person?
• 42:01
  And yeah, and have the conversation about that and
• 42:05
  usually you get into these types of you share information about
• 42:13
  that and you get some awareness because usually they are not
• 42:17
  aware. So that's an example or I had
• 42:20
  some conversation with CEOs as well about why their
• 42:25
  organization is quite non balanced, but always from like
• 42:30
  an open perspective, not judging, just sharing
• 42:35
  information and try to create awareness.
• 42:37
  Yeah. And does that then help?
• 42:41
  Do you see that? Yeah.
• 42:42
  Sometimes it does, but it really depends on the person.
• 42:46
  And I also found out that not everyone is open for the
• 42:51
  conversation. So if I sense that there is not
• 42:55
  like a willingness to listen or they're not open to hear
• 43:00
  different perspective, then I I'm not going to do it.
• 43:04
  In the past I tried it but it's useless in my opinion.
• 43:08
  So people really need to have some open mind about it already.
• 43:13
  Yes. So then the trick becomes or the
• 43:16
  the pivot sort of becomes, creating that open mind with.
• 43:21
  More people, if they already have an open mind about it or
• 43:28
  open to hear more about it, then you can have an open
• 43:32
  conversation. Yeah.
• 43:34
  Do you see that more that open mind?
• 43:37
  Do you see that more in younger people or in just doesn't age
• 43:41
  play a role in your experience? No.
• 43:44
  OK, so it doesn't play a. Role no no it in my personal
• 43:48
  experience it doesn't matter. I'm not sure what studies say
• 43:51
  but no no no. There are some open minded older
• 43:54
  men and not so open minded younger men and everything in
• 43:59
  between SO and women as well of course, but because not every
• 44:04
  woman realizes this as well so. Yeah, yeah, there are still
• 44:10
  there's this trend of the threat wives who are happy to stay,
• 44:14
  stay at home which which they should if they're it makes them
• 44:18
  happy, I think. So you're a certified
• 44:22
  supervisory board member. For context of non Dutch
• 44:26
  listeners, we have two tier boards in the Netherlands.
• 44:29
  So there's supervisors and there's executives, and
• 44:35
  supervisors then have the obligation, let's say, to
• 44:40
  oversee what the executives are doing and coach them, advise
• 44:46
  them. And yeah, basically, probably
• 44:50
  you can say better what what they're allowed and not allowed
• 44:54
  to do. But is diversity an inclusion?
• 44:57
  Is that the topic that is part of the training at all?
• 45:00
  Yes, it is. And in a broader perspective,
• 45:04
  diversity is a topic in supervisory board or education
• 45:10
  and I guess it's improving amongst other due to the quota
• 45:17
  introduced in the Netherlands, listed companies are now
• 45:20
  required to have at least 30% women in their supervisory
• 45:24
  boards and that's already start to starting to make a difference
• 45:30
  see like progression. And I've also heard from the
• 45:34
  training institute that more and more women are now enrolling in
• 45:38
  supervisory board programs, which is a very positive
• 45:42
  development. And when I did the training
• 45:44
  myself, there were 14 participants, 11 men, three
• 45:48
  women, and around 90% of the group was over the age of 55 S
• 45:56
  Yes, general diversity is improving, but I think still a
• 46:00
  lot of work has to be done and not just in terms of gender, but
• 46:05
  also in terms of age, diversity of thought and experience.
• 46:12
  I truly believe that supervisory boards would benefit from having
• 46:17
  a wider range of perspective in the board, especially as the
• 46:20
  world and the workforce is continues to change.
• 46:24
  So a lot has to be done yet still, yeah.
• 46:29
  Because the, the traditional view on the supervisory board
• 46:33
  member at least also in my mind was like, OK, you start doing
• 46:38
  that after you've been an executive for a company.
• 46:41
  Then you move sort of while you're also enjoying your
• 46:46
  pension, you're also on the supervisory board.
• 46:50
  And then at some point, I think it was the code at the box plot
• 46:55
  when they started to limit the number of positions that you can
• 46:59
  have. And then they introduced, over
• 47:01
  time, they introduced A quota that 30% of supervisory board
• 47:07
  members have has to be a woman. Yeah, and listed companies.
• 47:13
  Yeah, listed companies. Very important addition.
• 47:16
  And and also I saw that it doesn't really trickle down to
• 47:20
  large non listed companies. No, no, that's still a
• 47:24
  challenge, Yeah. Because it's not a requirement,
• 47:27
  so we're not going to change. No, probably not.
• 47:31
  But I think the supervisory board should like have more
• 47:38
  subjects they discuss within the board.
• 47:43
  Traditionally it's focused on financial control, but I think
• 47:49
  in the current landscape world, for example, it is quite
• 47:54
  important. Sustainability is very
• 47:56
  important, diversity, inclusion is important and you see that
• 48:02
  changing. But what I see most boards are
• 48:05
  still focused on finance and control.
• 48:09
  So in my opinion, it's important for the future to changed that
• 48:14
  as well. And that's what I meant by
• 48:17
  diversity of thoughts and experiences, because you really
• 48:20
  need that to stay and grow as a company.
• 48:25
  But also if you have a broader agenda as a supervisory board,
• 48:29
  it makes it more appealing to people with, let's say, not just
• 48:33
  a finance and control background.
• 48:36
  It sort of limits the pipeline by default, almost I would say.
• 48:40
  It does, and that's changing as well, but I think there are some
• 48:46
  steps still to make. So we talked about it already a
• 48:53
  bit, but what is the specific role that men can play in
• 48:57
  changing the system? Well, I think men can play a
• 49:00
  crucial role in helping fixing the system.
• 49:04
  We want real change and lasting change.
• 49:07
  We need to do this together, men and women.
• 49:10
  And in fact, I do not believe that women can change change the
• 49:14
  system on their own. We need the active support of
• 49:18
  male allies who are willing to listen, learn and use their
• 49:21
  influence to open doors and challenge.
• 49:24
  Challenge state school as well, especially in tech where most of
• 49:28
  the leadership position are still held by men.
• 49:31
  Position that shape company culture.
• 49:33
  Hiring practices or promotions are often in rooms where women
• 49:38
  are underrepresented or not present at all, and that's why
• 49:42
  it's essential for men in those positions to be part of the
• 49:45
  solution to question their own biases.
• 49:49
  Advocate fairness and createspace for different
• 49:52
  perspectives. And I don't think it's that's
• 49:57
  what I hear sometimes. It's not taking something away
• 50:00
  from men. It's about creating a system
• 50:02
  where everyone has fair chance to thrive.
• 50:05
  And I think when we work together, the outcome benefits
• 50:08
  everyone. More inclusive themes, better
• 50:11
  decision making, and ultimately more successful and innovative
• 50:15
  companies. Yeah, so there's a lot to gain.
• 50:17
  Gain for men it's not. This year as well, yeah.
• 50:20
  It's not, that's what I try to keep saying as well as it's not
• 50:24
  a 0 sum game. No it isn't.
• 50:28
  But if you're in a competition mindset, it is a 0 sum game
• 50:31
  because your gain is my loss. Yes, yeah.
• 50:36
  And I don't think we should look at it like that.
• 50:40
  No, but breaking debts is is proving to be quite difficult,
• 50:47
  let's say. It's a challenge.
• 50:48
  Yeah, it's a challenge. I think that's the that's the
• 50:52
  understatement of the year. Right.
• 50:56
  Yeah. So I'm on a mission to to make
• 50:59
  inclusion in tech the new normal by the end of 2032.
• 51:03
  What's your expert advice to get?
• 51:05
  Yeah. Well, if we want to make
• 51:07
  inclusion and take the new normal by 2032, I think we need
• 51:11
  to stop treating it like a side project or ticking the box and
• 51:16
  start embedding it into the heart of how we build companies,
• 51:19
  teams and technology. And I think that means working
• 51:24
  on multiple levels at once. So what we discovered before
• 51:29
  fixing the system from recruitment to pay gaps, the
• 51:33
  progression, language, leadership culture, etcetera.
• 51:38
  But it also means changing the narrative.
• 51:41
  The women and girls see that tech is also for them.
• 51:45
  And it's not just about coding in a hoodie, but it's also about
• 51:48
  solving real problems, working with people, creating impact,
• 51:52
  and it's also about redefining leadership.
• 51:57
  We need more diverse leaders at the table, and not just one or
• 52:01
  two, but enough to actually shift the culture.
• 52:05
  As mentioned before, studies show you need at least 30%
• 52:08
  representation for sustainable change working together.
• 52:12
  Women cannot fix this alone. We need male allies and
• 52:16
  inclusive leaders who are willing to change the status quo
• 52:19
  even though they benefit from it.
• 52:23
  And finally, start early. Show goods from your age have
• 52:28
  exciting and meaningful tech can be.
• 52:30
  If you make it normal for them to see themselves in tech, it
• 52:33
  will become normal for everyone. And, and personally I would love
• 52:38
  to see a future where every woman, girl or on the in the
• 52:42
  represented group feels like that could be their part and
• 52:48
  where no one has to adapt to a broken system because the system
• 52:52
  finally works for all of us. Sounds like a great place to
• 52:57
  close. Yes.
• 52:59
  Thank you, Famke. You're welcome.
• 53:03
  For a really wonderful conversation.
• 53:06
  If people want to learn more about you, where would you like
• 53:10
  to send them? Well, as mentioned before, right
• 53:12
  now I'm in between roles. There isn't a company I
• 53:15
  represent at the moment, but if you would like to stay in touch
• 53:19
  to follow what I'm working on next, you can find me LinkedIn.
• 53:24
  I regularly share thoughts and experience there and who knows,
• 53:28
  by the time this episode airs I might have exciting news to
• 53:32
  share. So see you there.
• 53:34
  Thanks. We include the link to your
• 53:36
  LinkedIn in the show notes so. Thank you.
• 53:39
  Fame Kabraar, once again, thank you very much for an amazing
• 53:43
  conversation. Listeners, thank you very much
• 53:47
  for listening and until the next episode, keep being awesome.
• 53:55
  Well, that's a wrapped for episode 113 of women disrupting
• 53:59
  tech with Femka Brauer Hobelen titled Why women in tech can't
• 54:04
  fix the system alone Femka. And I hope that you found our
• 54:08
  conversation as insightful as we intended it to be.
• 54:12
  And if you have any questions for Femka, please leave them in
• 54:15
  the comments on Spotify, Apple or YouTube.
• 54:18
  I'll make sure you will receive an answer.
• 54:21
  When you want to connect with Femka, please check out the
• 54:24
  links in the show notes. And as usual, you can find the
• 54:27
  show notes at Women Disrupting Tactile Blog.
• 54:29
  The link is also in the description.
• 54:32
  If you've enjoyed listening to this episode, please consider
• 54:36
  leaving a rating or a review on Apple or Spotify.
• 54:40
  Leaving a rating or a review helps listeners find podcasts
• 54:44
  and supports my guests by giving them a bigger platform.
• 54:48
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• 54:56
  Following is a simple 0 cost way to support Femka and my older
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• 55:03
  of 2032. For more about Women Disrupting
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  Tech, please follow the podcast on social media.
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  You can find Women Disrupting Tech everywhere, as at Women
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  Disrupting Tech and you can also find us on Sub Stack.
• 55:19
  On Sub Stack you'll find in depth stories and behind the
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  scenes insights from each episode, plus the trends that
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  I've spotted across 100 plus conversations so far.
• 55:30
  So don't forget to subscribe to Women Disrupting Tech on Sub
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  Stack. Finally, if you'd like to
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  connect with me, please reach out via e-mail Dirkyon
• 55:41
  womenjisruptingtech dot blog or send me the on LinkedIn on
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  LinkedIn, search for my name Dirkyon and you'll find me.
• 55:50
  With that, I wish you a wonderful day.
• 55:53
  I hope to see you in the next episode and until then, keep
• 55:57
  being awesome.