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Just Cut It Out Podcast | Young Mom’s Breast Cancer Story: Faith, Family & Fighting for Answers · Just Cut It Out Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Dr.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Kim Brown, and this is Just Cut It Out, where we talk about how the experience of a cancer diagnosis has made people think differently about what it means to them to live a good life.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Each episode, we cover a little bit of practical wisdom and a little bit of big picture.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: What does this all mean through conversations with patients, their families, and teams who take care of them?
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Dr.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Kimberly Brown, and this is Just Cut It Out.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Today, my guest is Joy Ann.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: She and I have known each other for a little over two years.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: She is a wife, a mom, a musician.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: She is a part-time school teacher for her kids, and she noticed a breast mass about two years ago.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: And she's gonna share with us her story of what happened after that.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna talk a little bit about self-advocacy.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna talk a little bit about the role of faith in community and going through something really hard.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we're gonna talk a little bit about how to discuss these diagnoses and the obvious treatment effects with young kiddos.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're gonna learn a lot and enjoy hearing Joanne's story.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, with that, Joanne, welcome.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited to have you here on this podcast.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: I am really excited to be here.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you and I have known each other for about two years, and many people say, I never wanted to know you.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to see you professionally.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it is a sad set of circumstances that brought us together, but it's really been a privilege to know you and your family um through this time.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: Before we met, you were living your life.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us a little bit about what that looked like.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like what set the stage for when things changed.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, I had uh two kids, three and five, um, full of life, full of energy and um just crazy, you know, little kids.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I pretty much spent my time being a mom, being a wife.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my son was in kindergarten, so I was half homeschooling.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: He goes to hybrid school, um, half homeschooling, and then just hanging out with my little girl being a mom.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: And um yeah, it kind of blindsided us, I think.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: How did you and your husband meet?
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, we we met in Colorado Springs um back in 2009, I think.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um we're both musicians, and he wanted to just go have a little bit of fun playing music on the street corner downtown.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: He's a he's a drummer.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: So he was looking for somebody who played the hand drums.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually grew up in East Africa playing African hand drums.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: So we kind of got connected, um, and it did not take very long for us to be like, actually, this this works.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: This is more than just hand drums.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't think I knew that about you.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, oh I like learning new things.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you're married, you're raising kids, you've got a hybrid homeschool situation, and then you noticed a breast mass.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we actually got in a car accident um end of July 23.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: And um it was about a week, a week and a half later, I felt a lump, and I was like, I don't know what this is, so you know, Andrew and I were like, you should you should probably go get that checked out.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I did, and they told me it's just a hematoma, um, because it really was right where the seatbelt caught me.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: I even got in the car and you know, kind of reenacted it to, you know, to be sure, and they were like, Yeah, it's just a hematoma, sorry.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, it will resolve itself.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I went home feeling super relieved, um, but then it started growing like noticeably, and it started getting painful, and um my armpit swelled up, and I was like, this is not doing what they said it was supposed to.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I went back and again I was told it's a hematoma, and I was like, well, it hurts.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Can I do something about it?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they literally told me we don't know who to send you to, so maybe try a dermatologist.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I found a dermatologist, um, and I will never forget the look on his face when he walked in and saw it.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, his face just fell.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I I just remember this sinking feeling, like this is what I thought it was, you know, and the reality of fear, the fear started setting in.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um so he was the one that he made me promise, right there that I would get a mammogram within two weeks.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I did, and then actually he was the one that got me linked up with you.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: My mammogram, did he order it for you?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yes, he did.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because that sometimes is a problem when a person doesn't have a doctor to order a mammogram.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he was very, he was like, My team is gonna get on it right now.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they did, and so and so you had the mammogram, and that returned a diagnosis of you need a biopsy.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: You got the biopsy, and then how did you get the results of that?
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they they called me.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, they called me.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: I was actually um at my kids' soccer practice, they called me, and so I just went and sat in the car um and cried for quite a while.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um then tried to pull it together.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think that is something that's a little broken in our healthcare system, that when a suspicious mass is identified and a person goes to get a biopsy, that we could do a better job of having a plan for how to communicate the results of that.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, when people see me in the office, when they don't have a diagnosis, I'm able to do that, say, okay, we're gonna go send you for a biopsy and then you know come back to talk about it, or if I'm gonna call, we can at least arrange for a time to talk when they're not at kids' soccer practice.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: And and and I believe that the person calling was trying to give you that information as soon as possible.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it was done with any poor intention.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: No, and I was I was grateful.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: The waiting, honestly, for me was the worst part of all of it.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: The unknown and the waiting.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I was I was grateful they called.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: So once you have the diagnosis, then how did you go about finding a treatment team?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um that doctor's office gave me a few names, and yours was one of them.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they said that they had a connection with you.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so I mean, it was it was crazy.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: He was basically like, You have cancer.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, here's some doctors, which one do you want?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I I'm on, like, I'm in shock.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not processing.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so um I asked, I think for uh 24 hours or something to think about it, and then I was like, Well, they know Dr.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Brown, so I guess I'll just go with that one.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm very grateful I did.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, um, I'm I'm grateful they sent you to me as well.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then just to back up for a minute, at what point did you kind of know that this was not a hematoma, even when someone told you that it was?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think when my armpit swelled up.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um was that six months after?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it was about six months.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was visible, like I didn't even have to like feel around to find it, like it was visible.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: It was starting to affect the skin.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't hold my kids, I couldn't, you know, the seatbelt was hurting, and so I was like, this is this is not.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: Alright.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: And you were 34 at the time?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I believe so.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Which is young for breast cancer, but it's not outside the range at all of what is seen.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's uh not unreasonable to say, oh, you did have a car crash and it's right where the seatbelt is.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the piece that would have been appropriate is let's bring you back in the office in a couple weeks and make sure it's going away.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or more clear instructions for you that if it didn't go away, they come back.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you know, if someone out listening to this is in this situation or knows somebody who has a breast symptom, um, that would be my recommendation.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: It didn't help you, but maybe we can help someone else.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: So now you've you have breast cancer, you you see me, and then you now have a million appointments, right?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: That was overwhelming.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my mom flew down um from Colorado and you know, kept the kids, kept my son getting to and from school and all of that.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: And Andrew and I literally drove everywhere just getting appointments done.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think, I mean, honestly, it felt like God just cleared the path because from the diagnosis to my first chemo, I believe was three weeks.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I had the port put in, I had, you know, PET scans, like everything done within that amount of time, which um was, in my opinion, miraculous.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: That was our goal is to start treatment within 60 days of diagnosis.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but in case like yours where there's already been a delay, I I do think that's when all the teams work even harder.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, can we get that MRI a little bit early?
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: Is there any other appointments for the PET scan, etc.?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so everyone's breast cancer is different, of course, and not everybody has chemo as part of their treatment, but you did.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: And we did your chemo first, which is not uncommon for many reasons.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: It can sometimes result in less surgery needing to be done.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it can shrink tumors, and maybe someone that could have not had a mastectomy at the beginning and could have not had a lumbectomy at the beginning, is able to have a lumpectomy, etc.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but chemo, a lot of side effects.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of side effects.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you're you're the primary caregiver for a three-year-old and a five-year-old.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: How did you manage those side effects?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like what did you experience and and how did you continue to try to function in those roles?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: It it was it was so hard.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think, well, for one, Andrew stepped up in the biggest way.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he when I came home from because they they told me after the mammogram, they called me into the office and we're like, we don't know you have cancer, but you have cancer.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I I went home and you know, we were standing in in the laundry room just sobbing, and he told, I was like, are we are we gonna be okay?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Am I gonna be okay?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: Are you and I gonna be okay?
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: The kids, you know, and he he he was like, I've got you.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: I was built for this.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: I was built for hard times like this.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: I've got you.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna be okay.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: And he was he was incredible.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: So um he yeah, he took on a massive load with the kids that allowed me to rest more.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it was it was hard.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, especially when our son was at school, then I had my little three-year-old who um was full of energy, and you know, Andrew would go to work um while why it was at school, so it was just us two, and I I couldn't stay awake.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like I would I would try to play with her and I would just fall asleep, and she'd just be sitting there, like, mom, what you know, what's going on?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so I would, you know, I'd turn Bluey on and just be gone, and she'd just be sitting there, and it broke my heart.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: The the amount of mom guilt um for that was crushing.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um but Bluey is a really cute show, isn't it?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: I like I really like Bluey, but I hear what you're saying that you you want to be there, and did she like how did you guys talk about what was going on with them?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um with Maya, it was hard because she was so young.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: With Wyatt, it was hard in a different way because he he's very observant and he asks very deep questions, so we had to be really careful.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, the way we were wording it, like mommy has a really bad sickness.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but and the doctors are gonna have to give me medicine, which makes me feel horrible, and my hair falls out, you know, all of this stuff.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: But it's it's to help me get better.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: And Maya kind of took it like, oh, I hate the doctors, you know.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, well, they're not they're not hurting you.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: They're trying to, you know, they're trying to help me um be here for you.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: And why it, you know, why it was like, well, you're gonna die.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh Lord, this is you what you went there, and I didn't, I was not ready for that.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I think with him it was it was being very honest.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, there there is a chance, but I can promise you the doctors are doing everything they can, and I am doing everything I can, and the Lord is with us, and everything will be okay.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever that looks like, it's gonna be okay.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and did you use the word cancer with him?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: We did not for a long time because I was afraid that he would go to school and say, um, mommy has cancer, and then some random innocent child would be like, Oh, my grandma died of cancer, you know, and and so um I didn't want, you know, mistakes like that, as completely innocent as they are.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: So we we just said mommy's mommy's really sick right now.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: Eventually, um, I think he was six by the time we started using the word, but he at that point he was he was coming to his own conclusions, so we really had to yeah, be very honest with him.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I remember you telling me about when you started losing your hair, how did Maya react?
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh man, that was that was hilarious.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I again was in the bathroom sobbing.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: This happened quite frequently.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I called, I literally called Andrew on the phone.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he was in the dining room.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: I called him, like, please come here.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think I think his mom was here at the point.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't want to just go out.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I'm like, I was standing there with hair, like just you know, all over me.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: And um Wyatt, my son, just ran in after him and saw you know me sobbing.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so he comes and gives me the biggest hug.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: He's so sweet and so comforting.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, Mom, I love you anyway.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, I don't care what you look like, it's fine.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then Maya, still three years old, comes in with her extremely dry sense of humor.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, Mom, your head looks stupid.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: And we it was exactly what I needed.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: I needed my son to give me like love and comfort, and then Maya come in and make me laugh.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it and it, I was like, it does, doesn't it?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it really does.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: I do not pull off the bald book.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: So um, but I think that's how we got through a lot of it was through humor.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Andrew's very good at making me laugh, and both of my kids as well.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that helped a lot.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: I've got I've got a husband who also uses humor a lot, sometimes a little irreverent.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: So so one day at a time, you guys made it through chemo.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, your faith is a big part of your lives.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um you're in a church that and how what was your experience of of receiving support or how people were differently able to be with you in that season of suffering?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we were so blessed by our church.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: They stepped up in a big way.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we were part of a small group inside our church, and so they immediately, you know, um organized meals for us to be brought.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: They would help with um watching our kids when I had appointments.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: They um some of them even would come over and have their kids play with my kids so that I can go like just take a nap.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so the support was just incredible.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then of course, just the prayer support from you know so many people.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: And Andrew was able to keep taking the kids to church most of the time.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that was really a morale boost for them, and also it kind of kept us in people's minds, and so the support didn't like fizzle out, honestly.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: It was yeah, it was it was truly humbling.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh having that strong community, yeah, it's very important.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: And you want to say a little bit about how your faith helped you make meaning of what you were going through?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um it it was sorry, just give me a second.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's hard to think of where to start.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um The Lord showed up from the very beginning.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um Andrew and I regularly talk about all the ways that, you know, the little ways and the huge ways that we saw God working on our behalf.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it it's it's just it gives me kind of like a who am I that the Lord would remember me like this, even in our suffering, and as hard as it was, it was as easy as it could possibly be.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um even things like finding you, finding, you know, and the and the the way the church stepped up, and then you know, just different people rallying around us, it was the way we found, you know, uh insurance.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was there were so many things, and so I literally had to have defiant trust in the Lord.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it talks about even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it talks about how he prepares a table before us in the presence of my our enemies, and my enemies were right there.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: The the enemies don't leave, they're right there, and you have to choose to sit down at that table anyway, in a vulnerable position.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: You're not in a fighting position anymore.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna sit down and you're gonna let God be God, and that is the only way I got through it was just being like, Lord, I can't I literally cannot do anything.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's on you, it's on you, and um, you know, metaphorically throwing my children on him, being like, Lord, they're suffering.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's on you.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: I can't change it, and as much as I'm fighting, you know, um, it's on you.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, just having defiant trust and constantly bringing to mind the the ways he came through.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it built my faith in a way that I never could have imagined, honestly.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um I really am grateful for that.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: I I can imagine that having faith in good times feels and looks a little different than having faith when it's really, really hard.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and we we wanted to be honest to the point, especially with Wyatt, because of his age.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: We wanted to be honest with him so that he could see um how God worked.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I'm like he's old enough, he's he's emotionally intelligent enough to see.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: So let's bring him in on this and be like, Wyatt, the Lord did this and he did this, and you know, and and helped build his faith alongside of ours, honestly.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he ended up uh just last October, I think.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: He got baptized of his own doing.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: He he brought it up, he pursued it.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: We kind of tried to discourage it because he's young.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: He was like, no, this is he and he he got up in front of the whole church and he said, I saw how God took care of mommy during cancer, and I want to show him how much I love him.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, that's incredible.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: It was it I I told Andrew if that's all that happened, if that's all that came from me having cancer, it was worth it.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: That is incredibly powerful.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um I a lot of people spend time paying attention to the cancer, being mad at the cancer, being mad at the circumstances that they can't control.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: And what I heard you saying was you were you were surrendering in some parts, but you weren't you weren't not fighting.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: You were still fighting.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that tension between doing your part of the fight and then giving that part up that is.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Not in your control, as yes.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds like that's something that you learned how to do, maybe drew from other parts of your life.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think so, but also it it was a second by second thing, you know.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um constant constantly giving in to fear and then having to correct.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Be like, no, he was there.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: He was there.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I had I had several medical medical professionals tell me as well, like that car accident probably saved your life.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so even going back to the beginning, before it all started, like God was working, he was watching, he was there, and he was guiding our footsteps.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so, how can I not fall on his grace?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you were doing this was happening throughout your whole journey.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about the beginning so far that of the chemotherapy, and then it was around six months of chemo.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then it comes time you were lucky, I guess is one way to say it, but you know, that the cancer hadn't spread anywhere else.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: So you you were gonna have surgery as part of a curative intent treatment.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And we talked about options lumpectomy, mastectomy.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um what were you thinking in terms of those decisions about what made you consider one over the other?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think that one was I don't know.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: I I was told it's a negligible difference if you get a lumpectomy or mastectomy, negligible difference in recurrence.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: And for me and the way my brain works, I heard there's still a chance.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was like, I would never forgive myself if I did not do everything I possibly could, and it did come back.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I would have to put my kids through this again.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's all I would be carrying.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if I did do the mastectomy, if I did do do the extreme measures and it still came back, I could I could genuinely tell myself I did everything I could.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um and even if you know 1%, 0.5%, I don't know what the negligible difference was, but that would have haunted me.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, yeah, I took the I guess more extreme route.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it's interesting that when I talk to patients about this decision making, survival difference is the same.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: And you're right, there's a small negligible is an interesting term.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um and but I think that's a reasonable term.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: The the outcome from cancer is uh is driven a lot by the biology and those two the lumbectomy with radiation and mastectomy are very, very close in having the risk of having it come back in the breast.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: But what I hear patients saying to me is like, I don't ever want to have chemo again.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's not no it's interesting that it's not the risk of dying that I hear is like the if I have to undergo chemo again, no way.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I want to do it.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's kind of what I heard you say in a little bit, is is that no more.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Can't do it again.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then so we did the surgery, and part of what you wanted to do, um, we talked about reconstruction, and so you had temporary um what we call tissue expanders placed to get uh to allow you to finish any other treatments that you needed, and then reconstruction was a few months later.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, do you want to say anything at all about how you were thinking where your mind was coming into the decision for the reconstruction surgery?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that was that was interesting as well because at that point all I could see was how much my kids had gone through.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: And the mastectomy really like affected them like very deeply.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think it I don't know, I don't know what, but it it like really traumatized them.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was like, so undergoing another surgery just feels selfish at some point, like, because this part is not at all life-saving, this part is just me, you know, what it whether it's vanity or what, like whatever you want to call it, it's just it's for me.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so that it was really hard wrestling with that.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I had several people um just talking to me about um maybe this is your chance to reclaim who you were before, and it maybe it will help you close a chapter.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so I did, I did the deep flap, and um honestly I'm not done.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so then I had to a second one, and that was a revision to three.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and again, it felt selfish and you know vain, and then I did it, um, and I I could not be happier that I did it.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: It was like finally finding myself.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: It was exactly what you know my friends have been telling me, like maybe, you know, maybe you can reclaim, you know, and and I think that's exactly what it was.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: I I feel so much more um whole and able to close a chapter, and that is that is a gift for sure.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's wonderful.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, in between the initial deep flap and the revision, you were unhappy, but now you're like looking back, right at right uh choice, yes, right decision.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, yeah.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in all of this, then you move into survivorship, and that includes getting regular scans.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how are you handling the worry, or do you have worry about what news those scans might deliver?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's definitely, I think there probably always will be that like moment of like uh your heart just stopping.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I did have a scare back in uh November of this last year.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I did have another scare, and they had to send it for, you know, send me to do a biopsy, and um I reacted while I was getting the biopsy.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like it just it was it was awful.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it it felt like in that moment I just had um like uh like flashes of everything that we had been through just playing like super fast through my head, and it was just the I guess PTSD type feelings, and um and I again I I think I had to fall back on um the Lord, and you know, my pastors came and they prayed with us and um just prayed that God would be near, and um and he was, and I'm so so grateful it was all it was was a scare.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: There was nothing.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, there is definitely when you walk in, you smell certain smells and you hear certain noises, and it's just your body just immediately reacts.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: And um I don't think that will ever go away, but I'm certainly not going to delay my scans at all.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: So and in general, you're living most days not thinking about this, right?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, I'm I feel I'm feeling better and better.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um my energy and my strength is coming back, and I'm actually being able to be part of my kids' lives again and take them to birthday parties and you know show up to go read at my my little girl's uh pre-K class, you know, and just stuff that I because I had felt so sidelined all of a sudden, like just taken out of you know their lives, and so this is a gift.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm so excited.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um what would you say now to a woman, maybe in your position, mom, young kids, fa looking ahead at what's the hardest thing she's ever had to deal with, scared for herself, scared for her kids, to help her find that strength to get through it.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think one thing is exactly what you told me when I when I texted you um that I had had that scare.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: You called me and you said, do not let the fear of the unknown steal the joy that you have today.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that, I mean, that hit me so hard.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, it's true.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: I have, I still have time.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe not very much, maybe plenty.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, but I'm not gonna let you know the fear of maybe not very much steal with that what I have with my little kids and um with my husband.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I would say another piece of incredible advice I got from my pastors was wake up in the morning, spend an allotted amount of time grieving and being angry.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Do whatever you need to do to get that out, and then try to be present the rest of the day.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that helped me so much.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, sobbing, whatever, whatever it was in that moment, and then it'd be like, okay, I got that massive emotional thing out of the way for you know, even if it's a few minutes, I can be there with my kids, and so doing that, um, because we can't just turn it off, so just try to do that, set it aside, and be present.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: Time is precious.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Time is precious.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: Every day is a gift, yeah.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it may not feel like that when you're at the beginning and you're trying to figure out how do I get to this appointment?
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: How do I get how are we gonna pay for all this, etc.?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: But one day at a time.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, is there anything in your life that you just cut out because this experience of a cancer diagnosis made you realize that that was not important, not a way to spend your time?
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, I think cancer is a time of pruning.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um so for us, there there were several different um aspects.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: One of them was just the kind of food that we eat, you know, like cutting it, like being very practical.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, we've tried to cut out a lot of processed things, a lot of seed oils, you know, trying to be more um intentional.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then also um just what are you spending your energy on?
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: Who are you spending your energy on?
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um and friends, some friends are there for a season, some friends are there for the long haul, and realizing which ones are which, um, and not cutting people out like in a bad way, just being like, you know, right now this is where I need to be spending my energy, and no hard feelings.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: We're just you know, um yeah, I think there are a lot of pruning effects that you don't realize you're gonna be dealing with.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just kind of yes, exactly.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, would you like to ask me that question?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: I was wondering how you deal with the weight of talking to somebody like me who especially maybe doesn't have a very hopeful prognosis.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: That is a very faith-informed question.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Although when I started my career in medicine, I actually was uh not a Christian.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: I was very atheistic, and and but I still I think recognize that uh life is is finite, that everyone dies, and I can't stop people from dying.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I feel like I had a clear picture that I can help people make the best choices possible about what to do with the whatever life we have or they have.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I can talk, I can translate medical stuff into language that people can understand and use to make informed decisions.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I also have come to recognize that I for people I can potentially cure, for people I can't cure, I can still be there.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and like yeah, we we sort of learn out at the beginning of medical school because when you're a medical student, all you can do is be there because you haven't learned stuff yet.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, but there's a lot of power in just sitting with someone so that they're not alone.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think knowing that I'm helping someone even if I'm not curing them, I've obviously would rather cure them.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: But um knowing that I'm helping by just being there is a reward that um makes the the hard stuff worth it.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: No, that makes a lot of sense, and that's exactly how I think Andrew and I both felt when we met you, and you know, all the meetings.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: I've had many doctors, and honestly, all of them amazing.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: But you the way you handled Andrew and I both, um, the way you talked to us, the way you were there for us, it was it set you apart.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: And we're so grateful.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a privilege to get to know you and your family through all of this.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: I've said many times, nobody ever wants to know me professionally, and I don't take offense to that.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you very much, and thank you for joining us for this episode of Just Cut It Out.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a privilege to hear from Joyenne.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: I've learned things about her that I didn't know.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think she's shared wisdom, hard-earned wisdom, about things, about self-advocacy, um, about the role of faith and community and getting through something really hard, and in how to talk to young kids about a scary situation that they see their parents going through, but may not have the vocabulary to understand or make meaning of.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you've taken something away from this episode that is going to help you as you seek to understand and live out what it means for you to live a good life.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.