Latest / Reboot Republic - Rory Hearne by Tortoise Shack Media / 361. Climate Action and Social Justice Go Hand in Hand

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361. Climate Action and Social Justice Go Hand in Hand · Reboot Republic - Rory Hearne by Tortoise Shack Media

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Enjoy the show.
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Welcome to reboot Republic, the podcast that goes
1:23
behind the headlines and looks of the big
1:24
issues in this Republic of inequality.
1:27
We are the podcast of solutions and the
1:28
podcast of hope and I'm your host Story
1:31
Her and delighted to be joined on the
1:33
podcast today by 2 guests we've had
1:36
before, and I've got a very good reaction
1:39
when they've been on the pod. It is
1:41
professor Mary Murphy of Man University
1:43
and Sao in climate activist,
1:47
delighted to have you both back in the
1:48
pod?
1:49
Thank you. Delighted Be back.
1:51
Yeah. And as I said before, it was
1:53
great. Great reaction to your previous pods where
1:55
you were separate, but now you're together, which
1:57
is great.
1:59
And the... So we're gonna chat today just
2:02
about...
2:03
I suppose where we're as in terms of
2:05
climate,
2:06
social justice and
2:08
the
2:08
intersections and and a little bit of reflection
2:11
on
2:11
the elections that have just gone in terms
2:14
of maybe what it means for green
2:18
the transition and,
2:20
climate change policies, just if you have thoughts
2:23
on it,
2:24
And then we were also all per taking
2:26
in a conference called rethinking Growth in Trinity,
2:29
which was very interesting, and I'd like to
2:31
get your own thoughts on that as well.
2:34
And just where is
2:36
I suppose the climate movement and climate policy
2:38
going and what what what we think about
2:41
that.
2:42
Maybe go to you first ce.
2:45
In terms of your response, what what did
2:47
you think when we look at Board in
2:48
terms of Ireland, we saw
2:50
you know, the green party being, you know,
2:52
having a very, very poor local elections, in
2:55
particular getting hit at the European elections,
2:58
not completely collapsing. It has to be said
3:00
in terms of the vote.
3:03
And then if we look at a European
3:04
level,
3:06
The they definitely have seen a reduction, and
3:09
we've seen that kind of growth of the
3:11
the the far rise and the were, you
3:15
know, the indications are that a European,
3:18
the ex European commission European parliament is much
3:21
is going to be even,
3:25
colder towards the the European green deal and
3:27
and and there seems to be this real
3:31
and I I don't... Think it's unfair to
3:33
describe it as backlash because we know where
3:34
it's coming from. It's been fermented by billionaires
3:37
supporting the far right
3:40
and the fossil fuel companies, but there's no
3:42
doubt that
3:43
the green
3:44
transition
3:46
agenda has been hit.
3:48
Is my assessment.
3:49
What's your sense of it?
3:51
Yeah. I mean, in Ireland, specifically, I think
3:54
a lot of people have felt alienate originated
3:56
from the idea of environmental,
3:59
by
4:01
not entirely the thought of the greens, but
4:03
I I don't think they they help I
4:05
mean, even in a lot of the the
4:07
policies and that they implemented,
4:10
I would kinda describe it as quite a
4:11
middle class,
4:13
way of looking at climate action. Yeah.
4:16
Like, you know, having the carbon tax
4:18
is
4:19
1 way to create funds, but then if
4:21
you don't have... If you don't,
4:23
invest and public the transportation that's accessible to
4:26
everyone, it's just gonna rise the, increase the
4:28
cost of living for people.
4:30
So I think it's
4:31
it's about
4:33
for me, I think climate action has to
4:35
be
4:36
multifaceted. It can't just focus on on 1
4:39
thing or another
4:40
because the reality is the climate crisis isn't
4:42
caused just by
4:44
the the bad way in which we treat
4:46
our environment. It's also caused by the way,
4:49
you know, what we value in our economies,
4:52
it's caused by by how we value human
4:55
beings and what we produce and
4:58
it's all intertwined. So I think definitely here
5:00
in Arden, that's that's a big issue.
5:03
And the farmer specifically have felt very alienate
5:06
which
5:07
is, you know, obviously, farming is 1 of
5:10
the base polluting sectors in Ireland, but
5:13
there's also so much
5:15
important kind of cultural elements
5:18
that are associated with farming in this country.
5:20
So it needs to be just transition as
5:21
well. Can't just be that that we punish
5:23
1 group of people,
5:26
or another. It it needs to be all
5:27
of us moving together.
5:29
So I think that's that's the root of
5:32
why the greens haven't... Didn't do as well
5:34
with this elect this...
5:36
These elections.
5:38
But, I mean, European level, and I think
5:41
it's the same to some extent here in
5:42
Ireland as well.
5:44
You know, we had
5:46
climate action and climate justice and climate crisis
5:50
were at the top of the media cycle
5:52
when the last elections happened.
5:53
And the climate strikes got an unprecedented
5:57
level of media attention. Mh.
5:59
And I think this really place climate change
6:01
is a very kind of as this an
6:03
issue that was really at the front of
6:04
people's minds. But then Covid 19 happened, and
6:08
and that really for very justified reasons
6:11
people's minds were on much more immediate things.
6:16
So I think I I think that's part
6:17
of it. The the media
6:20
you know, has moved on. As it always
6:22
does, the media cycle moving on.
6:25
But, I think also people
6:27
Are really starting to feel the effects of
6:29
years and years of austerity
6:32
of housing crisis across almost every
6:36
country in some regard, and
6:39
and I think it's it's become a lot
6:40
more about
6:42
either wanting to punish ruling parties
6:45
in government in in national government,
6:48
by voting far right,
6:50
or
6:52
believing that the far right will actually deliver
6:54
change
6:56
And when people are interested in change, it's
6:58
about
6:59
their it's about their livelihoods
7:02
because it's so bad for a lot of
7:04
people if that makes sense. So I think,
7:07
unfortunately, climate has been put on the back
7:08
bench because it feels
7:10
foreign to a lot of people.
7:13
Yeah.
7:15
Yeah. I think that's really, really interesting. And
7:17
I think as
7:19
you know, that's definitely, you know, what I
7:21
saw and and, you know, on doorstep steps
7:23
and what has come through that
7:26
this kind of gap grew
7:28
you know, through Covid, and I think it
7:30
can't escape from this huge,
7:32
like, the inequality that's been growing and that,
7:34
you know, for, you know, 40 years,
7:38
that
7:39
this adjustment around Covid and the cast living
7:42
crisis that came associated in the Ukraine war
7:44
and inflation
7:46
and there was a sense,
7:47
that also went off the headlines
7:50
through the last 8 months it a sense
7:52
or or the cost living crisis was easing.
7:54
But when you look at it demographic,
7:56
it was is as acute for, you know,
7:58
those, you know, basically the the lower half
8:01
of the population terms of income. As acute
8:04
and in some ways more extreme.
8:06
In terms of things like foods, cost, deprivation
8:09
has risen the number of children in deprivation
8:11
has risen
8:13
And there is this kind of sense that
8:15
our societies are becoming even more une equal
8:17
and we've seen the billionaires, you know, in
8:18
terms of what they've gained. But even in
8:20
Ireland, as they said,
8:21
deprivation amongst children increase while there's this other
8:24
group in society who, you know, have increased
8:26
their income.
8:27
Mary, what what's your sense of it?
8:29
Yeah. I mean, I have to admit. I
8:31
didn't knock on doors during this election, but
8:33
I was speaking yesterday with the a number
8:35
of community workers at a a meeting where
8:38
people were trying to reevaluate the the values
8:41
and the meter to network much harder around
8:43
the issues that we're facing
8:46
community work. And by that, I mean, not
8:47
just geographical community work, but work with communities
8:50
of interests like loan parents or child or
8:53
people with disabilities.
8:54
And what really struck me was you're talking
8:56
about inequality. They were talking about the Lived
8:59
experience, the daily lives of people, not so
9:01
much even in the bottom 50 percent, but
9:03
maybe in the bottom 10 percent,
9:05
in terms of our income distribution. The people
9:07
who are experiencing daily deprivation.
9:10
And it there was a material deprivation to
9:13
it, but there was also... The lived experience
9:15
was of lives that are lived in communities
9:18
there. That are really fragment and breaking down
9:20
and that the impact of the inequality and
9:23
the kind of political
9:24
fragmentation that's happening
9:25
is lived out in much more violent communities
9:28
where people are having to really cope with
9:30
really serious stress of everyday life in terms
9:33
of getting kids to school or in terms
9:35
of not wanting to deal with neighbors and
9:37
conflict on streets and and that it's it's
9:39
really... It's tied up with drug use. It's
9:42
tied up with increase music to crack cocaine.
9:44
And there's a sense that really there's a
9:46
big disconnect between
9:48
the the conversation that's going on
9:51
in general, and also about climate change, and
9:54
and what's really going on in in the
9:56
streets in terms of her violent life is
9:59
becoming an hard life. Is becoming. And I
10:02
think it was the only client who talked
10:03
about, you know, the left go are talking
10:05
about facts, but the not so guts. Are
10:06
talking about feelings.
10:08
And I don't think we don't talk enough
10:10
about how scared people are about him.
10:12
Insecure people are feeling how anxious people are
10:14
feeling
10:15
in the reality of that lived experience of
10:17
what is real inequality and and physical poverty
10:20
at this stage like the deprivation very, very
10:23
real for a marked number of communities where
10:26
poverty is actually increasing, as well as inequality
10:29
increasing.
10:30
So I think I really do think that
10:32
we need to change the conversation so that
10:35
people hear their reality in that conversation. And
10:38
and I suppose like, we were all the
10:39
trees were up the the rethinking growth conference
10:42
in Trinity the last few days. And the,
10:43
you, there was remarks on
10:45
you know, that maybe some the academic input
10:48
into it was perceived to be... And there's
10:50
a leases by some. But
10:52
I think that the degree to which
10:54
issues like care and gender and the the
10:56
everyday experience of them,
10:58
issues like poverty,
11:01
on the issues I've just described really weren't...
11:04
You know, they they didn't really surface in
11:06
the language of the conference. Now having said
11:08
that, I think there was some really good
11:10
things served thing, and it did give us
11:12
some ways to change the conversation. For me,
11:14
like, that... There's there is a big debate
11:16
about the language of of growth. Anyway, you
11:18
know, like, the d move and post growth,
11:21
re rethinking and growth are all attempts to
11:23
really be critical of of growth at the
11:25
center
11:25
of of of what's causing bolt inequality and
11:29
trying it,
11:31
degradation.
11:32
And it conference to some degree clarified for
11:34
me that we really are talking about economic
11:36
growth. That deal there's a welcome for other
11:38
forms of growth, including growth of well being
11:41
growth of care.
11:42
But maybe the language of G doesn't re...
11:44
It's it's not good enough to capture the
11:47
the nuance
11:48
in the framing of it in that way.
11:51
And, but the other word that came through
11:52
to me loud and clear was was sufficiency.
11:55
And
11:56
I'm the sense that sufficiency allows us talk
11:58
about need and have sufficient income and services
12:00
to live a decent life, but also it
12:03
needs to talk about wealth distribution and points
12:05
in both directions because some people have more
12:08
than sufficient. And some people have less than
12:10
sufficient. So I think that that to me
12:11
is a good word.
12:13
And you're were talking about, like, the the
12:15
degree to which the political balance in in
12:17
the Eu is changing, and the degree to
12:20
which the European Green deal will be, you
12:22
know, vulnerable in the context of the new
12:24
politics and the new political regimes as they're
12:27
emerging. But 1 thing I got from the
12:29
rethinking conference wise
12:31
The agree to which some of the policies
12:33
and practices that are emerging from the Green
12:35
new deal are embedded in law and policy
12:38
and financial institutions.
12:40
The better date they are and the harder
12:42
they are to just launch. And and I
12:44
think that's what El laura laurent was saying
12:45
that the conference was that we really look...
12:47
We need to look at how to embed
12:49
sufficiency
12:50
into all the institutions that we have, and
12:52
I do a lot of work on eco
12:54
social welfare, And the own welfare
12:56
institutions And I think the... If we start
12:59
talking more about welfare institutions, including housing rory
13:02
as you do. I think we get nearer
13:04
to the lives of people because That's what
13:06
you talked about doing Was embedding the principles
13:08
of the great New deal and just transition
13:12
into the Welfare institutions. So that they are
13:14
seen in the daily lives of people. And
13:16
people see that they benefit from them in
13:18
a really material way. I think that's where
13:20
we need to change the conversation. To start
13:22
talking about, I mean that kind of thing
13:24
a little bit more. I have to say
13:26
1 of the most
13:28
in interesting challenges that the conference was from
13:31
them,
13:31
Boy who responded to the,
13:34
the 2 key speakers at the beginning from
13:36
a global south perspective, and he really challenged
13:39
the the speakers
13:40
about the the idea that maybe be d
13:42
growth and those types of concepts
13:44
aren't doing enough to convince people in the
13:47
global selves that
13:49
they will not pay a bigger price for
13:51
for for D... That the D would be
13:53
go North project that maybe the Global South
13:55
will pay for I mean, he questioned who
13:58
we are. He quite... You know, he he
14:00
questioned
14:01
about the agency in the room. I think
14:02
he really put it back to us to
14:04
to really take more responsibility for taking on
14:07
I'm making clearer about the implications of our
14:09
ideas and our debates
14:11
for the go without. And
14:14
I I... I'm, you know, from a post
14:16
and this kind of way he talked about,
14:18
you know,
14:19
where does nature fit into those kind of
14:21
conversations. So a lot going on. A lot
14:24
to think about But I am I am
14:26
left with the overall sense that we need
14:28
a different conversation, and and we need to
14:30
bring inequality
14:31
and in all, it's fast. It's much more
14:34
upfront into the conversation about climate so that
14:37
people can see its relevance to them. And
14:40
also how a better world can benefit them
14:43
to. And because people are not seeing that
14:45
they're not hearing is. They're not that it's
14:47
not being our articulate clearly you know. I
14:49
think nuts. You know, Yeah. No. I I
14:51
think I think you're absolutely right. That was
14:53
my sense as well, coming on away from
14:55
it dash.
14:57
The,
14:58
you know, this idea dash
15:00
you can... And I think that, you know,
15:02
when we look at what's happening in terms
15:04
of
15:05
politics and people and and what we've talked
15:07
about here,
15:08
that
15:10
you have to push, you know, the the
15:12
issues that are affecting people whether it's housing,
15:15
you know, our health care or,
15:18
you know, just the stress anxiety of life,
15:20
it has to be central to the green
15:23
politics. And if it's not,
15:25
then green politics will just get lost because
15:28
I think that
15:29
we know
15:30
that the agenda from, you know, the top
15:34
from, you know, corporations and from fossil fuel
15:36
companies and and the billionaires, they don't want
15:39
the climate agenda you know, aside from the
15:41
the... Well, their own particular version of creating
15:44
alternative planets and all that. But, like, you
15:46
know, they don't want that embedded because of
15:48
the change
15:49
and therefore we need to win the public
15:52
so that they push for this, you know,
15:54
green
15:55
transformation, but they're not gonna get behind this.
15:58
Unless it is also addressing those was very
16:02
real issues that they are living through, and
16:03
that's what really struck me. And
16:06
I think that for me 1 of the
16:08
pivotal moments in the green party's involvement and
16:11
government
16:12
was the eviction ban.
16:14
And their decision to
16:17
support that eviction ban, the lifting of it.
16:19
On the base of all the different arguments
16:21
are. But for me, that was For me
16:22
it was 1 of the pivotal moments that
16:24
they should have said actually,
16:26
what matters here is all the
16:29
thousands and thousands of people are gonna be
16:30
made homeless.
16:31
And we understand yes, we have to get
16:33
green politics in, but there's a point at
16:35
which you also have to stand up. For
16:38
social justice and you will lose people. And
16:40
I think that was 1 of the moments.
16:43
And I think that there will be many
16:44
more, you know, in the future of these,
16:45
but it does for me just that you
16:48
can't as you say separate. And I think
16:50
that maybe that should be the learning for
16:51
green politics that for those who really want
16:54
to progress
16:55
you know,
16:56
transformative green politics that has to be embedded
16:59
with social justice and it can't be separated.
17:02
Sir, you want to commend your thoughts on
17:04
that?
17:05
Yeah. I mean, I think that's what I
17:08
meant. You know, when I was talking about
17:09
how I feel like the greens
17:12
have been quite middle class in their approach
17:14
in that You know, it is. It's it's
17:16
it's it's not... It's treating the symptoms
17:20
of climate change,
17:22
of
17:23
you know, what is happening with the environment
17:25
rather than the actual root causes. And the
17:27
reality is, like the root causes of the
17:29
climate crisis of same as the root causes
17:31
of inequality. They come from the same route,
17:34
and they are interconnected, You know, we had...
17:37
The once we had this this this
17:40
increase in
17:41
industrialization and this this view of the planet
17:43
as a natural resource that could be turned
17:45
out into an output that could then be
17:48
profit from
17:49
you know,
17:51
we started viewing the earth as something that
17:53
was dead and that could only be brought
17:55
to life through through being made and and
17:58
output, You know?
18:01
So I think it it is It's it's
18:02
very frustrating, you know, because it's it's kind
18:04
of giving a bad name to environmental.
18:07
You know, as a climate activist, I've had
18:09
a lot of conversations with different people who
18:11
have accused me of, like, not caring about
18:14
farmers and not being interested in in talking
18:17
to them are listening to them in and
18:18
it's like, no, That's that's a very specific
18:21
type of environmental, you know,
18:24
I think there's this view that the climate
18:26
is somehow above politics. I mean, I know
18:28
members of the green party have said that
18:30
they are above politics. So they're not left
18:33
or right. They're above that. No That's possible.
18:39
And it it is it's it's really frustrating
18:42
because it does alienate people it makes them
18:45
think that they... That it is a middle
18:47
class issue. That it is something that they
18:49
don't have to care about or that they
18:51
can't care about because they have more immediate
18:53
issues, and it's also just incorrect
18:57
to to treat it as something separate. It
18:59
isn't... It's it's the same thing. And and
19:02
as human beings, you know, it's we don't...
19:04
We shouldn't just have a right to housing.
19:06
We shouldn't just have a right to, you
19:08
know, live out of poverty. We should also
19:10
have a right to a healthy environment. We
19:12
should also have a right air we can
19:13
breathe that doesn't
19:15
affect our health. We have... We also have
19:17
a ride to have
19:19
our future generations, our children and our children's
19:21
children to live in in a secure world.
19:24
Where they have access to water and to
19:26
local and and
19:29
locally produced food that isn't overly processed.
19:34
And that that's the case for everyone across
19:36
the entire world.
19:37
I actually,
19:41
I
19:42
as part of my role as a as
19:43
a Un youth adviser, I talked to the...
19:46
There's a speech writer for the Un secretary
19:48
general.
19:49
And
19:50
he recently gave a speech on the fifth
19:51
of June
19:53
on world Environment Day. And 1 of the
19:55
things, you know, he did is he called
19:57
for Ba advertising for fossil fuels, which is
19:59
amazing. But I said, I I said, you
20:01
know, you need to talk about the cost
20:03
of living crisis. You need to talk about
20:04
the fact that everyone across the world
20:08
especially those in the global south where new
20:10
prices have increased. I think in Zambia,
20:13
they've gone up
20:14
and this is an old statistic I read
20:16
maybe last year by, like, a hundred and
20:18
23 percent or something ridiculous like that.
20:22
You need to address that, like,
20:24
this is the the default of
20:28
as an economic system that is both destroying
20:31
the planet
20:32
and also destroying people's lives that... That's the
20:36
same thing.
20:37
And then, of course, you know. What was
20:39
his response?
20:41
We didn't add it in...
20:45
Just didn't put it in there. III
20:47
mean look. I I said, I said I
20:49
was like, it wouldn't be amazing if, like,
20:51
he criticized the global economic system. I remember
20:54
the first meeting we had with him. He's
20:55
like, I'm I you know, I'm a democratic
20:58
socialist or something. I was part of the
20:59
social
21:00
democratic party in
21:02
in
21:03
in Portugal,
21:05
And like, as if this justified, You know
21:06
what I mean? Like, I I don't know.
21:08
It's just... It's very frustrating. It just feels
21:10
like nobody
21:12
is willing to actually challenge the systems that
21:14
are in place. Somebody in the the rethinking
21:16
growth conference in a breakout room said that,
21:20
the current market system we have is the
21:22
best possible
21:24
economic structure
21:25
that there... There's no that it's working
21:28
or not anything that it's working, but there
21:29
that there's no alternative.
21:31
And it's it's
21:33
it's just so frustrating
21:36
because
21:38
Yeah. There's no willingness to actually challenge anything.
21:41
There's no political will. I think this is
21:42
the thing I got from the conference.
21:44
People had these amazing solutions. You know, talking
21:48
about
21:50
wealth inequality, and and not just in terms
21:52
of billionaires and and poor people,
21:55
but also in terms of, like, the the
21:58
kind of inefficiency with... That that
22:01
in how wealth is actually allocated. Mh. So
22:04
Like, you know, there was 1 woman I
22:06
can't remember her name, but but she was
22:07
talking about, how, like, local authorities get money,
22:10
and then
22:11
you know, there's is not necessarily as much
22:14
transparency about where that goes, or it's not
22:15
allocated properly, and I know in my experience
22:19
when you work with, like, arts organizations it's
22:21
the same in government, they get a limited
22:23
budget, then they have to spend all of
22:25
that money or they get less money the
22:27
next year.
22:28
And that's such...
22:30
Or just even the fact that that
22:32
we have signed a treaty in Ireland,
22:35
That basically means that we have to either
22:38
run a surplus
22:39
or have a magical balanced budget, which is
22:42
effectively impossible. Like it's it's like market equilibrium,
22:45
you know?
22:47
And so we have this massive surplus just
22:49
sitting there.
22:51
For a rainy day,
22:52
and it's not being used for anything. It's
22:54
just... I I just found that really interesting
22:56
but the wealth is actually physically there.
23:00
But it's just not being used properly.
23:04
And this is the thing. There's all these
23:05
solutions, but there's no political will.
23:08
And
23:09
what really frustrating me about the conference. And
23:11
I understand that it's probably something to do
23:13
with academia, not necessarily
23:15
you know, academics are not in power
23:18
necessarily.
23:19
But there was no action plan.
23:22
There was nobody saying, okay, and and now
23:24
we need to go out on streets. And
23:26
now we each lobby our our government.
23:29
I remember when you were... Is really funny
23:31
when you're on your cattle rory, when the
23:33
facilitator was, like you, who's gonna run,
23:36
and he were like, I will.
23:38
That was really funny, because I was like,
23:40
that's the exact thing. Like, there was no
23:42
discussion of of how we actually implement these
23:45
changes.
23:46
You know? And I just found that really,
23:48
really frustrating.
23:50
Because I've been to so many conferences where
23:52
we just
23:53
rehash the same things.
23:56
And, obviously, conferences and these discussions are very
23:59
important. We needed to to come together and
24:01
have discussions and,
24:03
you know, like,
24:05
introduce ideas to 1 another those kind of
24:06
cross poll. That's very, very important.
24:09
But then at the end of the day,
24:11
we just go home, and that that's it.
24:14
And we, you know, we know we know
24:16
from experience that that protest
24:19
and direct action, and and then advocacy legislative
24:22
of advocacy along with direct action is incredibly
24:26
powerful.
24:28
I mean, the only reason there was a
24:29
green ways in this country was because of
24:31
the climate strikes or at least, I would
24:33
say 90 percent of the reason.
24:36
Yeah. Yeah. The only reason that that we
24:38
had a climate emergency declared in this country
24:40
that we had a climate action plan
24:43
in the first place ever was because of
24:44
the strikes.
24:45
Because it gained attention and and it mobilized
24:48
people.
24:49
And,
24:50
yeah. And I I just find it extremely
24:52
frustrating
24:53
I don't know. Direct action is is almost
24:55
thought of as like Naive sometimes, and it's
24:58
just like everything that we have ever won.
25:00
You know, our our
25:02
our working our weekends,
25:05
you know, an 8 hour working day,
25:07
a minimum wage,
25:10
socializing housing of any form
25:12
that has always been won because of of
25:14
movements of people pushing for change.
25:19
Yeah. I think I think that that's part
25:21
of the
25:23
the issue, and and, Mary maybe respond as
25:25
well that
25:27
you know, the the green movement itself, You
25:30
know, there was the climate strikes and there
25:31
was that huge wave of the movement. And
25:33
as he said, Covid had a major impact
25:35
on that.
25:36
Essentially,
25:38
you know,
25:40
stopping ish,
25:42
but then also, you know, green parties and
25:44
a certain level the European Union took up
25:47
the politics of the movement and said, okay,
25:49
We're going to implement this as you say.
25:51
But then
25:52
The movement itself the structures,
25:55
you know, went away and there's still, you
25:57
know, extinction rebellion, and there's other, you know,
25:59
but it's not the same. And I think
26:01
that's interesting. How would you respond to that,
26:02
Mary in terms of that.
26:04
Thank you, Roy. And You're. I mean, how
26:07
does change happen? I mean, like, you know,
26:09
I mean, I suppose
26:11
I I would see the collective mobilization and
26:13
the movement as part of the project of
26:15
of creating the demand for change.
26:18
And then the the more
26:21
institutional politics, if you like like, the party
26:23
politics and the legislation on the policy development
26:27
as as
26:28
responding to that demand by supplying the kind
26:30
of change that's been demanded. After to some
26:33
degree I think the conference book maybe more
26:34
about this supply
26:36
side of it. The ideas for what needed
26:38
to be done than how to create the
26:40
demand, and there was maybe a bit of
26:42
a a latent assumption that that demand is
26:44
there. And and we're saying that it's it's
26:46
not there. And the degree to which maybe
26:49
it was there 5 years ago has has
26:51
has that, you know, eased.
26:53
And certainly me, I think that level of
26:55
demand for systems change and for really transformative
26:59
politics and and practices
27:01
isn't there to the degree that maybe it
27:03
was there. And,
27:06
1 thing that worries me in in the
27:07
middle of all that is is you know,
27:09
that... There's other types of demand for for,
27:12
austerity for physical rules, for a sharpening of
27:15
the practice of of money management at the
27:17
level of the Eu. That is been
27:20
supplied. It's been demanded by elites and it's
27:22
been supplied by elites in in the European
27:25
Union. And any good changes that are coming
27:27
out to your client policy. I'm in the
27:29
context of a very contradictory set of economic
27:33
side rules that are... That don't really make
27:35
sense for the 2 of them together policy
27:37
1 thing that,
27:39
I suppose I I thought personally quite challenged,
27:42
And Rory will I'll be interested in you're
27:44
taking this. I know you're you're you're doing
27:46
the engineering. That's for ask questions But... No.
27:48
Absolutely. It's a conversation. Democracy is really challenged.
27:51
You know, I mean, you know, taken democracy
27:53
is a very big thinking, including the mobilization
27:56
and participation of people in the various forms
27:59
of direct action. I I would include that
28:00
as part of the repertoire of of different
28:03
forms of of of democracy. But I do
28:05
think that we are... We're quite challenged. We
28:08
talked about it earlier about listening to each
28:09
other and hearing each other and actually engaging
28:12
with each other and respecting each other in
28:14
those conversations. That we're we're finding it difficult
28:17
to find ways to actually have conversations. But
28:19
I think we're really challenged as well in
28:21
our democratic practices,
28:23
whatever they are via direct action or encompassing
28:26
or being members of political parties or trying
28:28
to get off.
28:30
The the time frame that some of the
28:32
climate actions on and the climate targets and
28:34
deadlines are in are so tight
28:37
that they're creating a kind of a pressure
28:39
on democratic politics that's pushing politics a bit
28:43
towards
28:44
managerial or techno democratic kind of politics
28:47
because it's it's about managing timescale scales and
28:49
demands and targets and, you know, it it's
28:51
that kind of managerial,
28:53
whereas
28:54
you know,
28:55
what we really need is time for talking
28:57
and time for listening and time for
28:59
understanding and and that's a very different time
29:01
scan. And I think 1 thing we we'll
29:03
have to get our heads around, and I
29:05
don't know how you do it is we
29:07
need to operate with different concepts of time.
29:09
I think, like, what we're on thinking and
29:11
we're using the same idea of time, and
29:14
that is linear and that, you know, we're
29:15
we're we're... It's very fast and it's accelerating.
29:18
But actually,
29:20
there's very different concepts of time like there's
29:22
earth time is very, very deep.
29:25
Sergio mentioned the seventh generation concept of time
29:27
thinking for
29:29
maybe 2 centuries worth of time,
29:32
political cycles are very short term. We know
29:34
that. There's a real challenge to get the
29:36
political system to think more long term and
29:38
to invest. In more long term planning, and
29:40
then capitalism works in nano seconds like financial
29:43
capitalism makes speculative financial gain in Blink of
29:46
an eye I mean, you can't... You can't
29:48
see it so fast. And and, yet, we're
29:50
trying to talk about
29:52
a system that cope with all these different
29:54
levels of time at the same.
29:56
Time. And and I don't really have the
29:59
answer for that, but I do think that
30:01
democracy is quite challenged at the moment at
30:04
Pascal, who at the conference mentioned a book
30:06
by John tomas mike called in the long
30:08
run, and it was it sort of an
30:10
politics and democracy, what what does it look
30:12
like when people don't have a good enough
30:15
concept of a future
30:17
because the whole idea of democracy is you
30:19
kinda get into different political parties with different
30:21
visions of the future and he kinda can
30:23
contest out those visions. You know, I mean,
30:25
that's very crude
30:27
approximation of party politics that representative democracy, But
30:30
he was saying that, like, 1 of the
30:32
problems now is that those political parties and
30:35
people who support them. Their their vision of
30:37
the future are contest is much more cloud
30:40
by uncertainty and insecurity and
30:42
and lack of vision about about the future.
30:45
And that makes the role and function of
30:47
political parties as ar of the demand for
30:51
change,
30:51
and much weaker.
30:53
So it makes direct action, search, I think
30:55
much more relevant. It makes civil society
30:58
much more relevant. But the At the same
31:00
time, we see civil society getting choked. You
31:03
know, we see negative
31:05
the state and its regulations. We see
31:07
pressure on advocacy groups. We see less money.
31:09
We see
31:11
fragmentation of civil society. So III worry about
31:14
that space a it because I don't... I've
31:16
mean,
31:17
been in the... I'm I'm in the middle
31:18
of it from a different
31:20
perspective that you are sir, but I just
31:22
worry
31:23
about about it all work and there's so
31:24
much pressure on
31:27
civil society to be a democratic actor in
31:29
the public sphere, and where the democratic system
31:33
isn't
31:34
seems to be as capable maybe as delivering
31:36
as it needs to be. So I think
31:38
there's a there's a lot in that space
31:39
that I think we need to really inter
31:41
more. You mentioned and Mary Mc
31:44
at the conference he talked about the role
31:46
of community Wealth building in
31:49
local government. And I I do personally think
31:52
that
31:53
local
31:54
government local democracy, local
31:57
direct action, local civil society is probably a
32:00
space that we really need to invest in
32:02
because a lot of what will need to
32:03
come down the line will be local. There'll
32:06
be... You know, there'll be
32:07
local
32:08
resolutions and solutions to some of the the
32:11
intricate kind of
32:12
sufficiency issues that will arise in the context
32:14
of trying to meet
32:16
what our lives need in the context of
32:17
of climate. And so I I think invest
32:20
in local
32:22
strengthen a local democracy and. Local civil society
32:24
is probably something that's why we're doing. That...
32:27
It's that from Den Team competitive at moment
32:29
because I'm like, for... There was a lot
32:31
of critique of academics at the conference. Yeah.
32:34
I felt III quite enjoyed. Like, you know,
32:36
I I would agree with a lot of
32:37
us, but what,
32:39
wondering I think some academics are trying to
32:41
do is to think through that teasing
32:43
issue of
32:44
time and democracy and the challenge of con
32:47
join them and how will we work this
32:49
out collectively as it as a species
32:52
as a planner as like, what how do
32:53
we do is part of the
32:55
institutions that we need in our democracies, what
32:58
needs to change there because we talk about
32:59
policy change, but we don't necessarily always link
33:02
that to democratic change. And a change in
33:05
democratic institutions that we might need to make
33:08
to to actually help us figure it out
33:10
decide what to do and implement it.
33:13
Yeah. I I think that's... They're really really
33:15
interest in
33:17
reflections and thoughts and there was a number
33:18
of things that come to mind when you're
33:19
talking and there. 1 is the,
33:23
When we think about timeframe frame and change
33:25
and we look at what happened around Covid
33:27
and how much change happened so quickly and
33:30
what we did and how we mobilized parts
33:32
of our society and we took the entire
33:34
health system into public ownership and, you know,
33:37
we did things that we never thought were
33:39
possible
33:40
because there was this common agreement essentially
33:44
that we needed to do it.
33:46
And for me, you contrast that with the
33:48
response to the climate crisis.
33:50
There is not a common agreement with what
33:52
we need to do, and it's about interest
33:55
and whose interests are driving
33:57
what the response is. And I think
33:59
that there is still this, you know, fundamental
34:03
contradiction and problem, which is that those
34:05
who are driving and who have power currently
34:07
and who are wielding the influence over power
34:10
are
34:11
very large corporations who do not want the
34:13
the fundamental changes that are needed. And so
34:16
we're fighting that and challenging that and even
34:18
in terms of time and we look at
34:20
social media, we look at, you know, the
34:22
whole sis is about trying to comm modify
34:25
every part of our lives and and as
34:28
you say, make as much, you know, profit
34:30
as possible from every second of our interaction
34:32
with each other.
34:34
And,
34:35
you know, how do we change that? And
34:37
and I react whenever, you know, pascal and
34:40
that gives us, you know, lovely reflection because
34:43
this is the, you know, a member of
34:45
a a government who implemented austerity and who
34:49
then as Sr pointed out, you know, failed
34:52
to invest any money we had brought in
34:54
vulture funds,
34:56
and you go, what what what are the
34:59
conditions that have created this sense of insecurity
35:02
in people? What are the policies that have
35:04
created this sense of? Insecurity.
35:06
And they are the policies of austerity and
35:09
the policies that haven't
35:11
invested in public housing
35:13
proper job security.
35:15
And I go... If imagine if we were
35:17
in a place where people had homes, secure
35:20
homes,
35:21
secure jobs, we were much more equal society,
35:24
we would be responding very differently
35:26
to the climate question.
35:28
Than how we are now because people are
35:31
responding as you say an and taking up
35:32
what you said around feelings.
35:34
People are responding from their feeling of complete
35:37
insecurity,
35:39
no sense of the future. They're looking at
35:41
their kids who going where are they gonna
35:43
get a home? And, you know, are they
35:46
gonna be? What
35:47
decent job, will they will they work in?
35:49
You, what's the point in in getting, you
35:51
know, third level
35:52
qualification? Are they just gonna emi?
35:54
And and that's, you know, Ireland, but that's
35:56
across, you know, across,
35:59
you know, many countries now. There's this sense.
36:01
The sense is not just insecurity about the
36:03
future and climate the sense is it's an
36:06
economic insecurity, and then fueled by
36:08
the Far rise and the anti immigrant, you
36:10
know, anti asylum seeker, the racism, this fueling
36:14
of asian division.
36:15
And I I go back to the point
36:18
that
36:19
if we created and gave people the things
36:22
and ensure they had housing health care,
36:25
you know, decent jobs, that then gives security
36:28
from which you can look at okay, what
36:30
are the wider changes we need to address
36:32
climate.
36:33
And I think that this idea that you
36:36
know, you've pas Don and your father talking
36:38
about it oh, you know, this
36:40
insecurity and that... Well, your policy created it,
36:42
and we need
36:44
You know what And I do think you're
36:45
right around the local, and, you know, that
36:47
question was asked, you know, how do we
36:49
get this change? And I do think the
36:51
unfortunate reality is it is a comp. A
36:54
combination of the local action, the local change,
36:57
combined with national level governments who can do
36:59
things like stop the investor funds who can
37:01
invest properly in housing
37:03
who can invest in health,
37:05
and then it has to be global as
37:07
well in terms of how we respond, and
37:09
it takes people operating at all those levels
37:12
And then in terms of academics,
37:14
I think there is a real role for
37:16
academics to be,
37:18
you know,
37:19
change leaders, change makers involved in that public
37:22
advocacy in in ways that, you know, yourself
37:24
myself and others have been an r,
37:27
and
37:28
but that is a challenge academics as well,
37:30
I think. And
37:32
that's that's my response that you've pulled me
37:34
into our responding And I'm like, oh my
37:36
God. Am I interviewing or am I responding?
37:38
What am I do? Sorry.
37:41
That's okay. No. No. We're chat. Or chatting
37:44
exactly. Sir, do you wanna come back in?
37:46
Yeah. I mean,
37:48
I think
37:50
even when you're talking about it, if if
37:51
people had
37:53
communities
37:55
if they had
37:57
affordable housing if they had public
38:00
transportation that that, you know,
38:02
got them where they needed to be.
38:05
These these kind of very basic things. The
38:08
climate
38:10
issue would be significantly reduced just by virtue
38:13
providing those things to people.
38:16
And I think that's a really important thing.
38:18
Climate action it like Was saying it it
38:20
doesn't have to be separate. It isn't separate.
38:23
It shouldn't be separate From
38:26
from actually changing the system from the economic
38:28
system changing, as I was saying, what we
38:30
value, you know,
38:32
changing
38:34
what we eat and where it comes from
38:36
Yeah. It's it's it's so...
38:39
It's just... Yeah.
38:41
I don't know. I...
38:45
I think you're right there and that... And
38:46
that in terms of an it was interested
38:47
in the shame... Shared 1 of those memes
38:50
for people who were saying, you know, what
38:51
if it's all a hoax, you know, and
38:52
we make all these changes for nothing and
38:54
then, of course it's like, yeah, what are
38:56
the changes that, you know, genuinely, if if
38:59
you did
39:00
climate action through a social justice
39:02
lens and framework, you know, you make the
39:04
changes around retrofit of homes, for example. And
39:07
the other example that that, I, you know,
39:10
again, you know, the generation of renewable energy,
39:12
for example, offshore wind? You know, like, why
39:15
are we handing that over to real estate
39:17
funds? Why are we not using that to,
39:18
like, you know, basically,
39:20
make electricity
39:21
really, really cheap for people. We could do
39:23
that. And then you would see, actually, this
39:25
is a huge benefit and the investments
39:28
you know, could benefit people rather than, you
39:30
know, a market approach that doesn't, you know,
39:32
that leaves people, you know, not benefiting and
39:35
going Why are we doing this? And... Yeah.
39:37
And I think as well, you know, like,
39:40
that thing again, about local, local kind of
39:42
change? And and
39:44
you know, it's it's like with the with
39:45
energy, especially, we have a real opportunity to
39:47
have publicly owned energy. It's owned why, like
39:50
a specific community.
39:52
And then if they generate excess private
39:56
energy, they can sell it back into the
39:58
grid and and make money for their local
40:01
area, and this is this is a system
40:02
that has been tested out. And and I
40:05
feel like, like it's more pride of place
40:07
as well. I... Am Michael Cro, actually, he
40:09
also spoke at the conference
40:11
In his book, Irish ecology. He talks about
40:13
Rave lu,
40:15
which is
40:15
like the localized revolution. And
40:19
what, you know, he talks about rev
40:21
local language and place names, You know, in
40:24
San is the ancient practice of place names,
40:27
and,
40:29
mythology, you know, stories
40:31
from the local area, music, songs,
40:35
really giving people a pride in in their
40:38
land, you know, like, and and
40:40
and if they have things like publicly owned
40:42
energy if if
40:44
you know, their goods are locally sourced from
40:46
local farmers, and they're actually engaging with 1
40:49
another. Things like community housing that we heard
40:51
at the conflict. As well... Exactly. Community housing.
40:54
There's also,
40:55
like, collective budgeting as well where where
40:58
communities are given,
41:00
budget budgets
41:02
from
41:03
local authorities, and then they come together to
41:06
allocate that,
41:08
democratic, the way they see how it should
41:10
be allocated.
41:12
And basically, you know, I think
41:15
we often glorify especially young people. You know,
41:17
we glorify this this idea of, of this
41:20
great big revolution that overthrow the system,
41:23
but I think it's it's
41:26
it has to start at the local level
41:27
that has to start with again giving people
41:29
that pride place. I I read a a
41:31
book recently that... Which was published in 2000
41:33
and mind the spirit level.
41:35
Yeah. Why... Yeah. Yeah. You actually referenced it
41:37
in your book. I remember now.
41:40
I just featured Wilkinson and Kate Pi. Yeah.
41:43
Fantastic book. Yeah. It's incredible. And, you know,
41:45
they talk about how
41:47
how if you have, like, a strong sense
41:49
of community, there's a sense of trust and
41:51
Rug Red as well, he also talks about,
41:53
you know,
41:55
the power of community. He, you know, he
41:57
says that human beings are friendly creatures. He...
42:00
That's how we evolved.
42:02
It wasn't necessarily survival of the fit, but
42:05
because we are in very social beings,
42:09
So I think it's, like, creating...
42:11
And I know myself, like, I,
42:14
you know, III have never really felt that
42:17
sense of community.
42:18
In my local area. And I think it
42:20
does change the way you see in the
42:22
world, it just change the way you see
42:24
people around you. You know, if you don't
42:25
have that common sense of action of
42:28
a desire for place. If you know what
42:30
I mean, it it's it changes the way
42:33
people act. People don't care about their local
42:35
area. You know, they don't they're not interested
42:38
in protecting it. People become quite individualized and
42:41
social media also contributes to that, You know,
42:43
it's
42:45
people
42:47
maintain this persona,
42:49
this kind of very isolating
42:52
element, You know, they compare themselves, you know,
42:53
a lot of comparison with other people. And
42:58
yeah. I just think it's it's about really
43:01
challenging
43:02
loss
43:03
we
43:04
have come to think society means. If you
43:06
know what Mean? And I read... I also
43:08
wrote this other really, really interesting book called
43:10
dark Em by Bruce Pas, and
43:13
it's about
43:14
aboriginal Australian communities. And it really just caught
43:17
my mind because
43:19
basically,
43:21
there's this myth that aboriginal Australians were hunter
43:24
gatherers
43:25
before the Europeans came. And this is complete
43:27
bullshit.
43:29
Sorry.
43:31
You know, it it... They actually were
43:33
operating farming. They they up they ran a
43:36
surplus of of, they had work tubers, for
43:39
example, that they specifically planted in different places.
43:42
Mh. They had a surplus of this, which
43:43
is 1 of the hallmarks of an agricultural
43:47
civilization.
43:48
They build these really beautiful and intricate fish
43:51
trucks. Some of these fish trucks are like
43:54
60000
43:55
years old.
43:57
And they they were still being used up
43:59
until the time when when the first European
44:02
colonize came and actually wrote about them in
44:04
their diaries. That's where we get a lot
44:05
of this
44:06
Yeah. History. And and the fish traps were
44:09
designed so that smaller fish could pass through,
44:11
so the fish stock wouldn't be depleted.
44:15
Their, oh, fascinating story about how 1 particular
44:18
tribe had a relationship with
44:21
killer whales off the coast.
44:24
Who they are wales. I don't know if...
44:25
I think there were whales rather than specifically
44:27
to their whales, But Yeah. Worked in tandem
44:29
with them. They actually communicated them. They had
44:31
this this ritual
44:33
where an old man would pretend to be
44:35
hurt, and they thought that the whales
44:38
responded to this, but the whales would help
44:39
them bring fish into a specific area,
44:43
because they had this long standing
44:46
relationship with the whales, and it was broken
44:47
when them
44:48
some European colonize shot 1 of the whales,
44:51
and and that completely broke thousands of years
44:53
of of this reciprocity.
44:55
But the most fascinating thing for me about
44:57
it was this idea that that
45:00
there were individual communities, and individual languages, individual
45:03
cultures.
45:04
But they also had
45:07
a kind of general
45:10
morality, I suppose moral code. They would often
45:13
meet up in places there were festivals
45:15
where they would gather together and it would
45:17
be a, you know, a good way of
45:19
of,
45:22
preventing inter marriage, for example, but also
45:25
harvest times,
45:27
celebrations festivals,
45:29
And and, obviously, I'm not saying, you know,
45:31
that we should, like, return to this magical
45:34
period. I'm not saying that it was magical
45:36
that they had, you know,
45:39
that we should just go back to... Because
45:41
we can't go back is the reality. I
45:43
think we have a brilliant
45:46
example of of how
45:48
communities could work,
45:50
and we can cherry pick the best elements
45:52
to build our new communities. And I think
45:54
1 of the most fascinating things is that
45:57
possibly,
45:59
indigenous Australians
46:00
could have been on the continent of Australia
46:04
for a hundred thousand years, which would make
46:06
them the first people out of Africa.
46:09
So if we wanna look at it from
46:11
a kind of hobbes perspective or, you know,
46:14
they're not Hobbes in, but you know, the
46:15
tea talks about the state of nature.
46:17
That's our best example. You know, it's it's
46:20
just... It's really fascinating.
46:21
Yeah.
46:22
Absolutely and points to a whole different conceptual
46:25
standing of What is human nature and what
46:27
does it mean rather than the homo economic
46:30
the individual utility maximizing which we are taught
46:33
from day 1 in Western societies and, you
46:36
know, that you are out to, you know,
46:39
your job is to do the best for
46:41
you and
46:43
maximize what you can get and you know,
46:45
if you were to get up in in
46:46
in any you know, debate and go will
46:49
actually,
46:50
you know, the whole concept, you know, the
46:52
the
46:53
the the wealthy, you know, self made man,
46:56
of course, man it is, and, you know,
46:58
this idea that, you know, actually, you know,
47:01
we are, you know, we rely on each
47:03
other to you know, get on in life
47:05
and we need to support each other and
47:07
is a whole different way of thinking it.
47:08
But yet, the other 1 is dominant that
47:11
you know, weakness is kind of, you know,
47:13
looked down on and vulnerabilities looked down on
47:16
and
47:17
Mary, I... Am conscious now. We're we're having
47:20
a great cha, but,
47:22
our time unfortunately is coming to an end.
47:25
Do you want to give us a a
47:27
closing
47:27
reflection there thoughts? Yeah. I Yeah. I do.
47:29
I mean, the the... I haven't read Dark
47:31
em, but I've read the dawn a history
47:33
by Gray and We, which which from a
47:35
sort of ant anthropology and archaeological perspective looked
47:38
das.
47:39
The relationship of of of equal societies in
47:42
in in capitalist societies.
47:45
And P draws on that idea of
47:48
3 ways that people really survive. 1 is
47:52
reciprocity as you events in En inertia. The
47:54
second is redistribution and the third is producing
47:57
things. And and I would suggest that there
47:59
was always sort of
48:00
society re, you know, being reciprocal with each
48:03
other and that mutual, inter independence,
48:05
There's always been states that that we distributed
48:08
in times of surplus or deficit or or
48:11
war or famine, and then there... There's always
48:13
been
48:14
production and and markets maybe for barter rather
48:17
than for pro. And capitalism are certainly up
48:20
abandoned that that that very, you know, centuries
48:23
young, thousands of millennium long, and relationships that
48:26
people had. So to some degree, I think
48:28
what what we're talking about when we're bringing
48:30
it back to the rethinking growth, We are
48:33
trying to think
48:34
through
48:35
how to rep proportion the relationship between the
48:37
state, market and society.
48:39
To diminish the role of the market and
48:41
the power of the market in in enabling
48:44
people live sufficient lives to upgrade the inter
48:47
independence and the role of reciprocity again, and
48:50
that's what we've been talking about local communities
48:52
and the role of of people in the
48:54
local community. And that the role of the
48:56
state
48:57
in enabling that life in regulating the market
49:00
keeping it in control and in enabling a
49:03
facilitating and empowering
49:04
society
49:05
to be what it can be and to
49:07
live the best,
49:09
you know, to enable people live the best
49:10
lives they can. I think that's kind of
49:12
to me people say, are, you talking at
49:14
the end of capitalism.
49:15
I don't think it's the right question because
49:16
it's not enough of a vision. It it's
49:18
about trying to imagine the role of the
49:21
state society and the market differently.
49:23
And move towards that. And I do... I
49:26
I do feel there's a lot of that
49:27
thinking coming together. I hear
49:31
the el Loren ends at the, you know,
49:32
the big... The big global kind of academics,
49:35
talking that kind of language of sufficiency, and
49:37
I hear social activist talk is and and
49:40
I think there there is ideas coming together.
49:42
But we are still at the level of
49:44
how do you make the change happen? And
49:46
how can you make it happen in a
49:47
time frame? I'm in a democratic manner that
49:50
will bring everybody with us
49:53
in in relation to that change? So I
49:55
I don't think we have all the answers
49:57
to that yet. So to leave it on
49:59
on on that Maybe. Yeah. No. That's really,
50:02
really interesting, Mary. Thank you. I think that's
50:03
a very
50:05
very,
50:06
kind of good way to
50:08
put us forward, And it was interested in
50:10
Sao. I think I read your were,
50:12
profile in the examiner. You did an of
50:14
you was 1 of the the leading,
50:16
young people in terms of climate change, and
50:19
you you... In your... In that interview, you
50:21
spoke about
50:22
you know, feeling, I can't remember what phrase
50:24
you'd describe. But, like, feeling the challenges or,
50:27
you know, it's hard or or alien at
50:29
times or isolating
50:31
But then when you come together with other
50:32
people, you know, who who, you know, are
50:35
thinking in terms of social justice, thinking in
50:37
terms of you know, bigger change that you
50:40
get, you know, energized again, and I always
50:42
feel that as well that it's so interesting.
50:46
It can be so
50:47
it happens so quickly by yourself to get,
50:50
you know, a bit deflate a bit d
50:51
rejected,
50:52
but as soon as you come together with
50:54
other people and and you know, we energize
50:56
each other, and I'm struck by that as
50:58
another purpose of those conferences, but also the
51:00
movements as well. Why the movements are so
51:03
important?
51:04
Because people do need each other to continue.
51:07
Particularly when we're coming from a place of
51:10
outside to try and change a system, You
51:11
know, when you are constantly
51:14
you know, facing challenges, you know, being excluded,
51:16
being ignored by the system that, you know,
51:19
and and, you know, going against what what
51:21
the mainstream
51:23
and
51:24
what the system in all, it's different formats
51:26
is trying to do
51:28
that there is that importance of coming together
51:30
and I suppose the importance of the podcast
51:31
like this as well, be able to... There's
51:33
people can hear...
51:34
Which which looks as, you know, how people
51:36
get get really profound motivation and that a
51:39
lot of it is from
51:40
nature and things like that. But 1 of
51:42
the biggest ways that people get all in
51:44
their lives is by communal coming together. And
51:47
that's why people go to football matches. That's
51:48
why you want concerts that's what, you know,
51:50
people really flock to things where they can
51:53
feel communal
51:54
in collective together.
51:57
And So III think that's really... It's a
51:59
deep part of human nature that we we
52:00
really want to do things with each other.
52:02
Yeah. And I finish on your 1 on
52:04
the feeling, Mary.
52:06
Of the need to connect with the feeling.
52:08
So I'm feeling really good after this conversation.
52:10
I hope you 2 are too. How are
52:12
you feeling Mary? How are you feeling sasha?
52:14
I am feeling better than when I started
52:16
yet. No. I am feeling good. And I
52:17
mean, I I think that the value of
52:19
that rethinking growth conference bars that coming together
52:22
and and the collective thinking. That we were
52:24
all doing. Mh. And, you know, we've been
52:26
maybe cri critique us in some of what
52:29
we've said here, but that's not to take
52:31
away from to bring together a very significant
52:34
large number of people to think through things.
52:36
I think it was at a moment of
52:37
our as well.
52:39
Sao.
52:40
How are you feeling? Yeah. Amazing,
52:43
good. I...
52:45
I think I'd... As well, I think the
52:46
conference, you know, these these conferences 1 of
52:48
the best things about them
52:51
is is that they they always... I think
52:53
in that in that profile, I was talking
52:55
about a specific experience, I had at cop
52:56
26 in Gala glasgow in 20 21.
52:59
Where there was a big walk out from
53:00
the conference and we had protests, the massive,
53:02
like, protests circle,
53:04
and it was just an incredible experience and
53:06
I think back to it all the time
53:07
just being able to be there with people
53:09
and and knowing that they understood what we
53:11
are all experiencing and how we all felt
53:13
that grief that frustration. And so it is
53:16
it is really amazing. But 1 thing I
53:18
will say is
53:19
I think with these conferences, we need more
53:22
voices that are not necessarily
53:25
from the status quo. Oh, not even the
53:26
status quo, It's not the right word. But
53:30
we need more young people, there was only
53:33
4 young people at the speaking,
53:36
and 3 of them were on a panel
53:37
specifically about
53:39
students. And I was the only 1 who's
53:41
was not on a student specific pile, and
53:42
I felt there should have been more youth
53:44
engagement. We need more thinkers from the global
53:47
south. We need
53:49
more people from,
53:51
you know, in it needs to be a
53:53
multifaceted
53:53
approach. It needs to bring in everyone.
53:56
And I think that
53:58
that's something
53:59
we need to do, like, community needs to
54:01
be for everyone and Ac be with everyone.
54:04
We can't kinda create
54:06
communities that are separate from 1 another if
54:08
that makes sense. Because they already exist, and
54:10
that's that's the problem. We need to create
54:12
1 big kind of
54:13
community that... That's a pushing for change Entirely.
54:17
But we need to help each other do
54:18
that as well I think You know, you
54:20
know, it... That's that's part of the challenge.
54:22
Absolutely. And and it is about finding ways
54:24
to do that and
54:26
shout out to John Barry, fresh John Barry
54:28
Queens.
54:29
And Caroline White as well and Davey Phillips,
54:32
Martin.
54:33
And all the other organizers who did, you
54:35
know, pull it together and you said, I
54:37
think that there, you know, there's lots of
54:38
ways in terms of people can go forward
54:42
around whether it's extinction rebellion or it is
54:44
kat the 10 union or it is a
54:46
political party
54:48
or the community,
54:50
housing movement or cool and others. There is
54:52
lots that people can do and we encourage
54:55
Listeners to do and I know many of
54:56
them are. So listen thanks so much Mary
54:58
and Sao. I really enjoy that
55:01
conversation, and I know our listeners will have
55:03
too. So and, thank you everyone. I hope
55:05
you're, and, if you can, enjoying the summer
55:08
somewhat,
55:09
as the rain falls, but,
55:11
great summer here.
55:13
But listen, thank you so much everyone We
55:15
are podcast produced by Tony Groves.
55:18
Of To Shack, if you can, please become
55:20
a patron support us to keep the show
55:22
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55:23
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55:25
and please keep doing that the more people
55:28
that can hear at the better. Keep the
55:30
conversation going. Thank you so much everyone. And
55:31
will talk to you all very very soon.