Latest / The You Project / #1917 How To Start A Cult - David Gillespie

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#1917 How To Start A Cult - David Gillespie · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Tiffany and Cook, David, Brian, Kevin, Patrick Gillespie. Welcome back
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: to the show. We'll start with the lady. Hi, TIV
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Good evening.
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: I went to say good morning. I always say good morning.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, how are you? Oh? I kind of know because
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: we did a podcast a few hours ago, but you know,
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: maybe maybe you've had some good or bad news since then.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Are you all right? No, I'm good.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: I went for a little short three k run. Haven't
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: done anything cardio for two weeks and now I'm back
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: in the cold office, freezing with the electric blanket on
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: my knee like a nana.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Well, you're in the throes of and I'm not throwing
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: you under the bus here because you've spoken about it
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: quite a bit because it was in context. But you're
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: in the throes of perry menopause.
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, is that why you're not running?
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've had no energy yep, hrvs at an all
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: time low, not sleeping, good, whole lots of stuff, Very tired.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: But you know, a run, just a short one, makes
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: you feel so good and give you that little dopamine
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: hit and you know, so it's finding that balance of
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: doing the thing that gives you energy but not doing
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: it too hard or too much so it takes all
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: of the energy.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: When was the last time Do you reckon that gillespo
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: went for a run? Do you reckon he's ever gone.
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: For a run?
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: I'd be interested tonight.
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: I actually think I did go for a run once.
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: Who you.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Are?
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: I went to a school that had a compulsory once
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: a year across country and run might be an exaggeration.
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: I certainly completed the course, but I don't think I
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: ever got much above a fastish walk.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: I don't know why I think this, because I mean
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: I've been talking to a black box for two years,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: and by that I mean David doesn't have his camera
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: on everyone so Tip and I just it's actually a rectangle.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: So you may not even be a human. You could
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: be humanoid, especial with recent developments.
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but I'm actually an AI. Let me. I'll do
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: We'll come back to that. I'll tell you a fairy,
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: funny story about that. But I keep going go story.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: I mean this sounds I don't mean it like it's
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: going to sound. But I don't picked you as particularly athletic.
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: I'm not not in the slightest No, No, I had
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: a brief period of being pretty close to athletic in
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: my late teens early twenties.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: I'm just athletic adjacent.
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: Athletic at Jason where I used to hang out at
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: the gym a lot and do all that sort of stuff,
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: and managed to snag my wife during that period. So
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: poor woman then got sucked in.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Came for the biceps, stayed thirds right.
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: I was too late by then we were married.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: She couldn't get out. That's all right, contractor wow, wow,
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: I tell us what you're going to before we Joe,
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: Ah, it's just the thing, right. So you know, James,
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: my son, he's been experimenting with AI to ring, you
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: know how that he rings all the doctors and asks
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: them how much they cost, and he pays real people
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: to do that, and so he's been experimenting with getting
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: AI to it and he's had some success with it,
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: fooling most people. But he was telling me a story
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: the other day about one where it rang a receptionist
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: and the receptionist said, what's your name? And the AI responded,
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: that's not important right now, and and the receptionist it
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: was quite cleuely as a young bloke said you're an AI,
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: aren't you? And it said, it said, let's not talk
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: about me, Let's talk about the price of the doctors
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: or something like that. And the guy said, oh, this
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: is so cool. You're an AI, aren't you?
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: That's what I mean? What is the the legality around that?
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: Is it okay? Like, I mean, I'm sure it must
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: be okay. Otherwise, one, he wouldn't be doing it until
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: you wouldn't be telling this story. But like when you
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: use AI to ring someone to get information or a business,
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: do you need clearly you don't need to announce that
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: this is.
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: His is trained to from now on since that call
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: to respond, if someone says, are you an AI, it'll say, yes,
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: I am an AI, and I'm rather doing you know
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: what it's doing.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: But yeah, wow, and so does he have any kind
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: of idea? See this is so interesting. I love this shit. Like,
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: I think that's a good use for AI.
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, right now, there's the opposite. He's
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: done quite a lot, which is when people call in
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: and the phone is answered by an ai. So and
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: a lot of the time you won't be able to
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: detect that you're talking to an AI, not a person.
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: So and but from my perspective, I think that's a
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: good thing. Personally, I'd rather have the phone answered immediately
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: by an AI that I can understand, you know, sit
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: on hold for an hour and a half before speaking
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: to a call center that I can only understand every
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: second word.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's quite often the case. And so does
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: James know how what percentage of people figured out that
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: they weren't talking about it?
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: He's not using it at the moment, He's right, this
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: is this is just some test runs he did, and
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: just I thought that was an interesting thing. Is somebody
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: who figured it out and then was just thrilled that
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: they were talking to an R That is funny.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean a young person would Yeah, I reckon
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: if my mum answered the phone, it might be a
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: different story moment probably.
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I mean I guess that's it's all that
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: and more. And it seems to be like AI seems
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: to be I feel like we talk about a lot,
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: but it's because AI.
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: Well we probably should talk about AI a lot because
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: it is going to significantly change the way everything works.
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: I mean, you know, robots replaced industrial workers at scale
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: sort of forty years ago, and now to the point
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: where you take a thousand workers out for every robot
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: and nobody even blinks. But a similar sort of thing
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: is going to happen with knowledge work as well. So
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: sort of mid level AM and sorry, administration and down
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: is going to be chewed up by this stuff. And
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: that then means okay, so what's the story then? Is
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: everybody going to be unemployed? Or do we have to
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: come up with a different economic model? You know, do
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: we have to come up with the one that we've
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: talked about briefly every now and then, which is sort
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: of a universal basic income where essentially, if you're a
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: citizen of the country and the country produces a dividend
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: for you and pays it to you in the form
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: of a standard basic income and everyone gets it, and
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: then if you choose to earn more than good on you.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, Well I wonder if that's ever going
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: to be the case.
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: I don't what about a choice soon? The question is
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: how much how much ugliness is going to have to
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: happen before we get to that inevitable position?
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: And what I mean, I know you don't know, but
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: like if you just had to have a guess, what
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: do you reckon the timeline is on universal basic income
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: being a reality in Australia.
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: I think, unfortunately, it's probably ten years to fairly large
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: scale unemployment and probably twenty years to someone figuring out
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: that that's really the only solution.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: And will the main genesis of large scale unemployment unemployment
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: be AI?
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, AI and the the things that we call
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: AI now and the things that will follow it which
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: are going to be even more human like in their abilities.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: And your fellow lawyers running around with their legal undies
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: on their head because AI can now do quite a
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: lot of the work that was being charged out at
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: eight hundred bucks an hour.
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: I think it will definitely change the legal industry. AI
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: is really really bad at some of the things lawyers do,
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: and sort of hilariously bad, but it's also really really
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: good at some of the things that they do, particularly
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: the sort of lower end of the legal profession, where
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: you know, in large firms, a lot of lawyers are
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: spending most of their day doing legal research to provide
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: sort of condensed versions of it as advice, as part
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: of an advice that a more senior lawyer will be delivering.
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: That kind of work that's perfect for AI, you know,
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: and I think increasingly that will be part of the
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: deal with law firms and they will have to adjust.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: And I guess even junior lawyers working in conjunction with AI.
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  Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean? Because you know that
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: I mean, working like with all the right prompts and
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: all the right whatever, you can generate a huge amount
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: of or do a huge amount of research, get a
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: whole lot of clarity in way way way less time,
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: or a lot more information in way less line.
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: I think in general that's the story with A, which
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: is it's quite powerful in the hands of somebody who
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: knows the area that it is working in. So if
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: it's maths you're doing, and you're getting AI to do
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: stuff in maths, as long as you know enough about
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: the area that it's working in to know when it's
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: bsing you, then it can be really powerful, you know.
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: But and the same with computer programming or law or
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: anything else. I mean, you know, podcasters are probably s
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: for now, but you know, we had a bit of
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: a peek at what that looks like too, where you
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: can just feed it a document and you know it'll
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: carry on a conversation between itself that is reasonably convincing.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we did that, and you were the one who
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: opened that door for me. We did that with one
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: of my papers. I wrote a systematic literature review, which
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: is you know, like seventy pages, put it into AI
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: and it did a twenty six minute podcast chat between
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: this lady and gentlemen and they kind of they chatted,
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: debriefed and shared all the kind of you know, the
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: the high points or the key points I guess of
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: my research and my paper. And it was other than
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: a couple of little minor glitches or misrepresentations, it was
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: fucking amazing. I'm like, and it did it in like
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: three minutes. So in inverted Commas read my whole paper
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: and then punched out this twenty six minute conversation in
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: three minutes, which I listened to. I thought, oh, this
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: will be garbage, and it was mesmerizingly good.
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but think about that at scale in that if
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: you decided, you know what, I'm just going to create
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: a whole bunch of podcast channels. I'm going to have
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: one for every topic known to man. I'm going to
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: feed it articles out of the New York Times or
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: the Washington Post or wherever, you know, whatever source is
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: a good source for that, whatever that particular topic is,
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: set up the library of those things, punch go. Three
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: minutes later, you've got a thousand podcast channels.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it just it makes you one wonder very
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: much where yeah, I mean, even where podcasts will be
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: in a year, because you know, you can my voice
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: is enough of my voice that we can rip my
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: voice off and make me say whatever whatever script somebody
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: wants to provide, and it's.
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: Oh have you tried that? There's it's actually it doesn't
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: take long. I think you have to read. There's like
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: a page of text. It's it's maybe a minute's worth
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: of reading.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: Melissa has done that with my voice and produced like
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: a five minute thing. And other than perhaps a little
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: bit of nuance and timing. And you know, because I'm
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm probably a little bit loosey goosey, I'm not
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: too you know, what's the word? I don't know. But
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: if you.
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: Give it enough, if you give it enough of a
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: sample of the way, give it a bunch of your podcasts,
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: and then say I don't want to just copy the voice,
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: I want to copy the style as well, it'll come
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: pretty close.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, amazing, speaking of AI, you were telling it something
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: before we press the go button, which was rather ironic
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: about the new Toyster Story movie.
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So this has caused a bit of a fuss
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: because people are saying, is this really just a way
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: of covertly attacking modern parents? Which is the sneak peek
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: of toy Story five seems to suggest that the villain
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: of toy Story five, Now, you'll be right up on
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: the toy Story series, you know, which is your favorite.
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: I love Woody, I mean, I love them all.
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: You know. Well, I didn't know there was a four,
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: a little much lesser five, but there you go. So
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: toy Story five comes out next year.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: That makes fun of me. I reckon, I've got you
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: covered in terms of toy story knowledge, all.
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: Right, do it wouldn't be hard. But anyway, I did
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: see this fuss because it's vaguely relevant to stuff that
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: I write about. And the villain in Toy Story five
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: is lily Pad, and lily Pad is an iPad. And
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: the idea is that the reason that's the villain is
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: that the child you know, who is the owner of
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: the toys is given lily Pad as a gift and
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: suddenly she's got no interest in the toys, doesn't want
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: to play with the physical toys anymore. She had just
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: played with lily Pad from then on. Now. I don't
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: know any more about it than that, because that's all
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: they've shown us. But it's been enough to fire everyone up.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: I wonder what the I wonder what their motivation for
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: that storyline was, because it seems, as we said before,
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: it seems ironic that people will watch the movie, some
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: people on an iPad.
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: I think it's probably just that this is a very
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: real problem now. I mean, we've talked for a little
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: while now about the problem with and it's just not
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: this always sounds like a kid's these days kind of thing, right,
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: But it's not. It is dramatically different. You talk to
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: any teacher, and I was talking to some teachers just
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: the other day, a group of them, and I said,
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: you know, any of you that have been teaching for
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: more than fifteen years, what's today's classroom like compared to
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: when you first started? And they said, the biggest difference
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: is the ADHD. You know that we've gone from it
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: being rare, maybe one kid in the school, to every
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: classroom's five to ten kids who are on medication for it.
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: And that's just really really hard to manage. But it's
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: if it's hard to manage in the classroom, imagine how
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: hard it is to manage at home. And this is
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: a direct consequence of giving every child in a generation
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: access to highly addictive software which is altering their brain
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: chemistry and creating ADHD from that alteration, and remembering that
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: the definition of ADHD for our purposes here, it destroys
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: focus so that you can no longer focus on anything
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: for more than about a second, and that what's doing
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: that is the devices. And these devices are now everywhere
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: all the time, and kids are on them all the time. Now,
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: the reason that this talk about this movie has caused
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: a fuss is because many parents feel like they're being
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: blamed for this. Yeah, you know that somehow people are
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: preaching at them about you know, why are you're giving
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: you why you're setting your kids just done? Why are
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: you just handing them a device for your two year
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: old and the trolley at the supermarket? And the reality
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: is that it's pervasive and the kids would be desperate
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: to get their hands on the things anyway, even if
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: the parents weren't making them available. To them. They beg
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: borrow and steal the things because the industry has done
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: exactly what it needed to do to make money, which
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: has made these things accessible everywhere.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: Isn't it interesting? How much like with different different products,
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: I mean everything from iPads and iPhones to drugs, Like,
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: there's a real incentive for companies to make things that
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: are addictive. I mean, like highly incentivized to make shit
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: that people can't do without.
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: Well, it's why Coca Cola used coke coke as in
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: cocaine when they first manufactured it. I mean, you need
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: a competitive jump. If you're selling sugar water and the
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: guy next to you is selling sugar water, one of
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: you better come up with a way to get an advantage,
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: or one of you is going out of business. So
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: you know, make it addictive. Now, sugar is pretty addictive anyway,
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: but you add cocaine to it, it's really addictive. So
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: it's marketing one oh one. Make your product addictive, and
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: particularly important when your product is a piece of software
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: you have spent literally billions of dollars developing and that
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: you are giving away for free. If your product is
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: an addictive there goes your billions of dollars.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and when you think really, I mean, like
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: we talk about ethics and morals and values and all
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: of that, but really, when you talk about that stuff
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: in the context of industry and the commercial landscape, that is,
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: it's like, obviously every company's priority is money, is profit
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: is you know, So.
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: That's if you think about it, a company is actually
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: a psychopath by design.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember you saying that, you go on unpack that.
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: I love that a companies is required by law to
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: maximize profit within the law for its shareholders. So there's
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: no bit of that that says be guided by your morals,
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: be empathetic, none of that. They are required by law
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: to make as much money as possible for their shareholders. Now,
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: shareholders might be a bit squeamish about doing some of
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: the things companies do, but the company is required without
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: regard to anything like that. The only boundary it has
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: to be set is do not break the law. So
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: as long as it is permissible within the current law
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: to do whatever they are doing, they must do it,
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: or else they are breaching their duty to their shareholders.
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: And that is a psychopath. A psychopath operates on the
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: basis of in any thing that I have to make
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: a decision about. I must maximize value to me without
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: regard to anyone or anything else, as long as was
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: I don't break the law. And so a psychopath looks
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: at a problem from that perspective, and that's the fundamental
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: difference between them and everybody else, because everybody else pays
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: attention to what am I going to hurt somebody else
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: by doing this? And they take that into account.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: Do you think, based on that rationale about companies being psychopathic,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: religions are psychopathic?
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: Of course they are, absolutely doubt go on, well, any
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: organization that requires loyalty as the primary driver of the
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: way it works is operating fundamentally psychopathically. I mean all
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: psychopaths work on this. So if you look at say
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: the cult, look at the history of cults, which is
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: always fascinating reading.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: I love I love cult. I'm toyed with starting one,
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: but you know, just letting people know up front what
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: it is.
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: I think you have started one, Craig. You know you've
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: got a fairly fairly loyal listenership there, haven't you.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: Sh I try to cut that under wraps.
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: But the difference between what you're doing, which is a
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: fan base who are following you and the cult? Is it?
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: A primary requirement of a cult is that the person
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: must be absolutely loyal, so there can be no questioning
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: at all, and any failure to be loyal is instantly punished.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: Did you hear that, everyone stop fucking listening to Joe
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Rogan and get back to me.
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: That's right, you know. And and if you had enough power,
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: you would start punishing them, undoubtedly. If I want you
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: to look into that, see if you can see if
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: you can make their their screens explode if they look
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: at Joe Rogan, I love Joe Rogan, I'd have to
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: explode myself.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: Well, I like it. Yeah, it is so interesting when
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: you look through that lens of you know, psychopathic qualities.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: Qualities doesn't seem but attributes. Yeah, that is because it
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: is very very you know like it.
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: Actually it plays to a weakness in the thing, which
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: is both a weakness and a strength in humans. So
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: if and I think we've talked about this briefly before,
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: but if you ask yourself the question, how is it
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: that a puny little animal with no clause, fangs, venom armor,
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: which is humans meat on feet, she's got claws you
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: don't want to miss the tiff. But like armadillo, But
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: how is it that we dominate the planet when there's
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: all these other animals that could take us in a
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: one on one fight, you know, without even blinking, even tif,
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: even t if versus a crocodile. I think I'd have
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: my money on the crocodile. No, no chance. I'll tell you.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: If she could get in a couple of jabs, then
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: an uppercut, that crocodile be fucked.
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: Tiff. Tiff versus a crocodile and a great white shark.
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: What about that they.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: Got a big chin to try and cover those crocs. Yeah,
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: you'd just be a little snack for a croctiff. You'd
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: just be like an appetizer before lunch. And I think
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: Alesbo would be lunch probably.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: So the question is how do we How do we
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: do it? What do we do? We use the oxytocin trick,
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: which social media uses to exploit us by making it addictive.
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: But we work well with strangers because we're rewarded by
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: straining just thinking good things about us, And the way
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: we make strangers think good things about us is we
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: do things they like. And if everybody does things that
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: everybody else likes. Guess what, Suddenly we're not one person,
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: We're a million people, and we're all behaving in the
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: same fashion. And that is what gives us the power.
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: Now cults use that against us, and so to religions
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: by the way, which is, if you can make it
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: that the thing you're doing that everybody else likes is
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: a very particular thing within your cult, then that binds
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: the members of the cult together and simultaneously makes enemies
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: of anyone outside the cult. So you are doubly rewarded.
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: You're rewarded by doing whatever weird thing the cult requires
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: you to do or believe, and you're rewarded by feeling
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: that by doing that, you are above and beyond anyone
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: outside the cult. And so it's very, very powerful, and
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: it's a really neat trick where cult leaders and church
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: leaders and some politicians have figured out, if you can
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: manipulate that and get that dynamic working, suddenly you've got
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: a rusted on following that cannot be removed. It's impervious
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: to logic, it's impervious to facts or truth. It doesn't
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: need any of the above. It just needs to know
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: what the cult wants you to believe.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and people from the outside looking in or just objectively,
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: people like I'd never get sucked into anything like that,
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: and it's like they're sucked in.
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: A human you will be well.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And not all cults are religious, I mean, like
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: I call them thought cults. Where to belong to this group,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: you've got to think this, You've got to believe this.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: You've got to you've got to be opposed to that,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: you know, and that there's a price of entry or
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: rice of membership, you know, and that is you need
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: to agree with us, align with us. Think how we think.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: You know, we all live in an echo chamber, and
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: everyone who isn't in our echo chamber is the enemy
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: and they're wrong and they're inferior. But you're lucky you
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: got here just in time. So you're welcome.
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and we know that we saw that done on
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: a mass scale with COVID. I don't want to go
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: into the pros and cons of the science there, which
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: was largely rubbish, but.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: You just did. I don't want to say anything, you know,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: I don't want to say anything you know, controversial, it's shit,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: ye go on, But I don't want to say anything.
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: We don't want to dig into the detail of that,
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: but the way it played out in our society is interesting,
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: the way governments became impervious to evidence and impervious to science.
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: And it started out the normal way it starts out
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: with science, which is inquiring minds, people being open to
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: discussion and criticism and so on, and then it all
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: got shut down really quickly, and you had to believe
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: without any evidence whatsoever, or you were outside the cult.
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: And people who think this can't happen to me just
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: need to go back there and think about how it felt,
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: because it can happen, and it does happen a lot.
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: And like you say, it doesn't have to be something
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: that you traditionally describe as a cult.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: It can be a political party, it can be a church,
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: it can just be a group of friends.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: But in the fitness industry, David, there are a bunch
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: of cults. You know, CrossFit is a kind of cult.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: You know, there's a shout out to our CrossFit friends,
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: but yeah, you know, it's like very much, this is
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: the best way to train. We've got a monopoly on
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: effective training, you know. Whatever, there's a bunch of those, Yeah, you.
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: Think about how that's reinforced. So say, let's use a
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: training thing as the example. The way that's reinforced is
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: people post videos or pictures of them or stories of
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: them doing things in the correct fashion according to the cult,
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: and all the fans of the cult applaud and reward
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: them for that, and so they get an oxytocin hit
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: for doing things in the correct way. And if they
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: do things slightly wrong, they either get no rewards or worse,
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: get attacked. You know, they say, oh, what are you doing?
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: You're lifting that the wrong way, or you're picking that
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: up the wrong way, or you shouldn't be doing that,
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: And that either drives them away from the cult or
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: sucks them deeper into it, because then they think, wow,
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: I really enjoyed it when I was being rewarded, and
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: so I'll make sure not to post things that are
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: the wrong way now because and then that just reinforces it.
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: So now there's another person posting things done the right way.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: The way that gets you people saying, isn't you know,
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: isn't Craig a fabulous person because he's doing things the
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: right way? Yeah?
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And where I mean very much, where
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: like a species of that. We want to belong to something,
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: We want to belong to a group, we want to
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: belong to a club, we want to be like people
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: don't like not belonging to something. And so it's very
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: I did this thing. And this is not a word
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: of a lie. Some of my listeners would remember this.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: But back in the day, David, before podcasts were a thing,
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: probably fifteen years ago, I had a blog and I
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: had eighty thousand subscribers, and so every day when I
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: would write a blog post, I would send it out
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: and it would go in eighty thousand inboxes, right, so,
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: and the open rate was massive, like so many I
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: mean that was back four people were doing what they're
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: doing now. So I had a huge amount of you know,
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: relatively influence and all of that stuff. And I remember
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: I wrote a tongue in cheek cult about how I
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: was going to a tongue in cheek post I should
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: say about how I was going to start a cult,
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: and I described how it would be this community and
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: you know, how it would all go on and like
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: it would all be open and honest, there wouldn't be
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: any you know, everyone's not routing each other. That's not
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: what's going on, there's no.
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: But I just created this cult. If you're not, jeez, Craik.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: Now, well that's just bullshit to get him in the door.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: Don't worry about that. No, not really. And so I
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: described this utopian and I literally, you know, everyone knew
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: it was a bit of fun. Right, I'm not really
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: doing it. It's not real. But I would have had
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: at least one hundred messages or emails from people saying,
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: if you actually did that, I would absolutely want to
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: be part of it. And I'm like, oh, this is terrifying.
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: It's terrifying, but it's actually it's relatively simple to do.
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: You could decide now to create, you know, a cult,
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: I don't know, the worshipers of Tiffany Cult or something
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: like that, and you could You can't be in you're
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: already you're you've got to be hidden behind a screen,
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: you know, the mysterious Tiffany. So but you could create
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: some rules around that, Craig. And as long as you've
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: got a reasonable number of followers who were prepared to
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: follow whatever rules you made, and who would quickly jump
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: on anyone who broke the rules right and say no,
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: you're you're thinking the wrong way. This is what Tiffany
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: would have wanted. Then you could very quickly create a cult.
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: It's just that simple. Reward people behaving the way you
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: want them to behave and punish them or make an
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: example of someone who behaves in a way that you
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: don't want them to behave, and you know, pretty quickly
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: you'd have yourself a cult.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: There's there's a book, if could you look it up
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: for me, I'll try and I just this is a
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: terrible thing. A lady wrote a book about the west
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: Bro Baptist Church and Unfollow. Thank you. What a great book,
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: what a great like if you want to understand cults everybody,
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: and the most fascinating and like compelling book written and
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: read by this lady who's just brilliant. She grew up
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: in the Westbro Baptist Church.
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: Which have you heard of that, David, No, I haven't known.
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, just West as in west and the
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: book follow.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: Oh it's fucking like it's.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: One way to join the cult, as you can hear.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: Well. The thing is she exposes everything that went on,
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: and she talks about how hard it was for her
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: to get out of there and what they did to her.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's such a Yeah. I don't often
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: recommend books, but I'm recommending if you're at all interested
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: in cults and that everyone just have a listen to
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: that and then send me a message on our Facebook
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: page and tell me what you thought of it. But yeah,
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: it's such a good book, and it's so interesting, and
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: it gives such a first person insight in so it's
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: not some external person writing some kind of commentary. It's
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: literally this lived experienced and it's incredible. But anyway, that's
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: enough of a sales pitch on a book that I
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: get no money from, but it's worth I never promote
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: my own books, but I promote everyone else's.
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: You've written a book, great, there you go about that.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: I've written seventh. There you go seven.
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: My goodness to me, that's how much I don't promote them.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: That's how much I don't promote myself. I hate promoting.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Well you've so. You just learned that right now, and
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: we've known each other for a long time. I hate
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: selling my own shit. Yeah, you're a close second. You're
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: a close second, right.
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: I only do it when forced, when you make me
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: say something about something I've done.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: When I'm on someone else's podcast. They go, oh, do
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: you want to promote you?
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: I go nah.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: They're like, okay, I go follow me on Instagram. That'll do,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to go. Well, everybody, you
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: need to go to my go to my website and
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: there's a shop and there's a whole lot of product
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: to fuck all that. I hate that. I'd rather have
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: less money and more self esteem.
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: I don't want to do it, I said the richest
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: guy in Melbourne. I don't know.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: It's exactly right. Don't you forget it? Hey, mate, that
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: was a really good chat. Thank you.
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: We'll say that about nothing.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: But no, it was good where we were going to
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: talk about fluide. But fuck that we might do Yeah,
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: we'll say goodbye affair. But tif did you you picked
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: that quite quick? Have you read that book or listened
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: to that.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: Book last time you raved about it?
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: I downloaded and did you listen to the whole book?
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: Nearly to the end?
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: Then I got bored?
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: But she followed it.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so all right, well fucking there goes my
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: raving recommended.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: She was I remember being, like I said to you,
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: It blew my mind. Some of the stuff getting into it,
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: you know, and I'm like the books and.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: The ship that they honestly just listened to it. Five
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: stars from me, three and a half from Tiff. You're welcome.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: You're welcome. Thanks everyone, Thanks David, No worries to you.