Latest / Minnesota Masonic Histories and Mysteries / Episode 139: Know Thyself (ft. Ben Engel & Ben Youngdahl)

Transcript

Episode 139: Know Thyself (ft. Ben Engel & Ben Youngdahl) · Minnesota Masonic Histories and Mysteries

• 0:00
  We seem to have a tendency in our organization to place perhaps a higher value on members who have been around a long time, they've been in for five years, 10 years, to get their opinions on everything.
• 0:12
  And I've asked both of you to come in today to have a conversation because you've both been Master Masons for, what, six weeks now?
• 0:18
  Mm-hmm.
• 0:19
  Ben Engel and Ben Youngdahl.
• 0:22
  You're from St.
• 0:22
  John's Number One and Acacia Lodge in Cottage Grove.
• 0:26
  You were both in the same class in a combined degree at the Heritage Center in July.
• 0:32
  What first made you interested in becoming a Freemason?
• 0:36
  I, I'm not sure when I really first became aware of Freemasonry in my life, but I always kinda knew about it and thought that it was fascinating.
• 0:45
  And when I learned that relatives of mine that I had a deep respect for and were Masons, that piqued my interest.
• 0:55
  And, um, when I was coming out of law school, I went and visited, uh, the, the lodge, uh, Lake Harriet, that my relative had, uh, been a member of, and, uh, spoke with the brothers there.
• 1:10
  But it really wasn't the, the perfect time for me.
• 1:12
  It wasn't the right time.
• 1:13
  I wasn't-- I didn't have a, a job.
• 1:16
  still sort of struggling to figure out a lot of things in my life.
• 1:20
  But it stayed with me, that interest.
• 1:22
  And then, um, just within the last year and a half, uh, I s- I started, uh, becoming more and more interested, in actually taking that step, and, uh, that's, that's what led me to the, to the West Gate.
• 1:40
  Before you joined, what did you think Freemasonry was, and how has the reality compared?
• 1:48
  I'll be honest, I didn't come into Freemasonry with a lot of expectations.
• 1:54
  I found Freemasonry at a time in my life when I was searching for a beacon.
• 2:02
  In my 30s, I had noticed that my world had become increasingly smaller.
• 2:10
  Um, I had a job that I liked, a marriage that I wouldn't trade for anything, but I noticed that my circle of friends had gotten smaller.
• 2:24
  People had moved on, started families.
• 2:28
  I noticed that I didn't have enough time to, work on self-improvement, to work on myself.
• 2:36
  and so I was searching for a beacon.
• 2:38
  And, and I think when you, when you find a beacon, you don't say,"What's gonna happen when I get there?" You just make a beeline for it.
• 2:48
  And, and that's what I did, and I found St.
• 2:50
  John's Lodge Number One, and it was, it was exactly what I was looking for.
• 2:56
  How would you describe that beacon?
• 3:01
  That's a great question because it's not as though I was walking down Main Street seeing advertisements to,"Hey, come, come visit the lodge." Um, Freemasonry, for whatever reason, has, has always been in my orbit, somewhere on my radar, and, and I can't even pinpoint why.
• 3:23
  Uh, yeah, my great-grandfather was a Freemason down in Texas.
• 3:27
  Unfortunately, he had passed when I was quite young, so I never had a chance to talk to him about it.
• 3:34
  but my parents had, you know, off and on mentioned that, uh, you know, he was a Freemason.
• 3:41
  But for whatever reason, and, and, and I, I honestly can't say why, there was never a year that went by since I was in my early 20s when I didn't think maybe I should explore Free- Freemasonry.
• 3:54
  There was never a year that I didn't think that.
• 3:57
  But just like you said, Ben, I, I wasn't in a place where I was ready, I was still going to school, finding my way professionally and, uh, and so yeah, just about a year and a half ago, that quiet beacon that I think maybe had been going off, not necessarily from St.
• 4:14
  John's Lodge, but just somewhere- Just the idea in general, though.
• 4:17
  Just the idea in general.
• 4:19
  Uh, you know, I, I decided to, to go for it You both touched on a similar theme, that maybe you weren't ready.
• 4:28
  You've thinking about it for a long time, and it was had that top-of-mind awareness, but you both waited until the timing was right.
• 4:37
  It's hard to describe.
• 4:38
  So we meet a lot of young men, 18, 19 years old.
• 4:41
  They're eligible to join, but there is something to be said about thinking about it for like getting a little more established with school being completed or life settling down and being in a place where you can really devote a lot of time and thought and reflection to this too.
• 4:58
  This isn't just about going through the degrees and becoming eligible to wear the pin, the ring, or be a, a master mason, but it, it really is a lifelong journey, which can sound like a cliché sometimes because we say that a lot, but it really, it really is true What has surprised you the most about your experience so far?
• 5:23
  I think one of the things that has been most surprising to me has just been, um, how much joy I've found.
• 5:31
  I mean, I kn- I knew that Freemasonry was going to, was going to im- impact my life in a positive way, but I had no idea just how amazing that impact was going to be.
• 5:44
  And, um- Can you describe that more?
• 5:46
  Sure.
• 5:47
  If you'd asked me a year and a half ago if I would just enjoy going out and washing dishes after a spaghetti dinner- I probably would've thought you were crazy.
• 5:58
  But I love that now.
• 6:00
  I love that feeling of we did something together, now we're just kinda cleaning up, the vibe of just kinda getting stuff done and, um, just that, I guess the, the joy that comes out of those, those simple moments among brothers, uh, just enjoying the experience together.
• 6:23
  I was really an extrovert in college and, you know, in earlier points in my life.
• 6:27
  I really enjoyed being around people, and then I got involved in technology as my career.
• 6:33
  I sat at a desk all day in front of a computer, and I slowly became a lot more of an introvert.
• 6:40
  And my wife saw that in me, you know, it was changing and, um, you know, we talked about it.
• 6:46
  But it wa- really wasn't until I was out again among people that I could just inherently trust, were there for good reasons, good motives, um, that had my interests in heart, uh, my growth, um, all the things that made it more comfortable for me again to just kind of focus more on the communication, the connection, and just the joy that came out of that was really transformative to me and was exactly what I needed in my life.
• 7:18
  To your credit, I recall the story being relayed back to me.
• 7:21
  When you visited Acacia, they were having a fundraiser, and you saw that there was some cleanup happening, and you just say,"I'll help you out with that." That's right.
• 7:29
  and what's so m- um, wonderful about that is I'm, I'm s- I'm sitting there, uh, you know, just washing dishes, cleaning up.
• 7:35
  And you weren't even a member.
• 7:37
  I wasn't even a member.
• 7:37
  You were visiting the lodge and said,"Can I help you guys out?" That's...
• 7:40
  Yeah.
• 7:40
  I have to say Acacia has...
• 7:43
  Acacia was really great about inviting me from the very first moment that I started talking with.
• 7:48
  They just invited me to anything that I could attend, whether it was, cleaning up the place for our 160th anniversary.
• 7:53
  "Come on down and help us clean up." You know, how many people, you know, if you just said,"Come on down and help come and clean up," they'd be like,"Oh yeah, sure, I- I'd love to do that." But, but it was, um...
• 8:02
  Every time I showed up to do those things, there was a, a joy and a, and a ex- a great experience.
• 8:08
  And for going back to that spaghetti dinner, you know, I was, uh, cleaning dishes, and I looked over and saw, uh, Lester's brother, uh, Russ Meister, was there looking out, and he said something to the effect of like,"You did great," or,"Great job." And it just was really...
• 8:24
  It made me feel, uh...
• 8:26
  It was just a really special feeling.
• 8:30
  What you just described led to a little theater of the mind for me because let's face it, cleaning isn't necessarily the most fun thing to do, whether it's at home or someplace else.
• 8:39
  But it wasn't so much about the task needing to be done.
• 8:42
  It was a group of friends and brothers celebrating having done something meaningful.
• 8:47
  They were going to make a, a contribution in their community.
• 8:50
  And in the recap of that, the time spent together, it's the conversation.
• 8:54
  It's the, the connections that are forged.
• 8:57
  And you were feeling that on basically your first visit.
• 9:00
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 9:02
  And, uh, it was really kind of fun as I was washing dishes there, uh, Brother Brian Morrison, who was, uh, I guess my next oldest brother at Acacia, who had just-- was going through the degrees just before me.
• 9:14
  it was really special having that, you know, time there with someone else who was going through the process that I was looking to go through and seeing the joy that he was experiencing with it.
• 9:25
  Um, and so I, I felt like it was very special that, um, there was a, a wide number of people showing up, not just, um, brothers that had-- were really active, but also other candidates as well, and other people going through degrees.
• 9:40
  Was there a particular moment when you started to feel like you belonged?
• 9:45
  Absolutely.
• 9:46
  Uh, you know, my story is ve- very similar to, uh, to Brother Ben's because, you know, never underestimate the power of the lodge kitchen.
• 9:56
  my introduction to the lodge was, was very similar.
• 9:59
  You know, I- They put you to work, too?
• 10:01
  Yeah.
• 10:02
  Oh, yeah.
• 10:02
  For real?
• 10:03
  Washing dishes.
• 10:05
  This is not the topic I thought we would start off with today, but do tell.
• 10:09
  Um, think I just kinda fell into it.
• 10:12
  You know, it was one of those things where, I was still visiting, um, I had petitioned.
• 10:18
  I was attending the dinners prior to the meetings, and there was a degree being held that night, and so everyone was rushing around, getting ready, and I said,"You know what?
• 10:32
  I'll just, I'll take care of the dishes.
• 10:33
  Y'all, y'all do the degree." And, and so, yeah, I spent the next few hours, uh, washing all the dishes by myself.
• 10:43
  Wow.
• 10:43
  It was the most therapeutic, wonderful thing.
• 10:46
  This didn't feel like a punishment though, right?
• 10:48
  No, absolutely not.
• 10:49
  You didn't, you didn't feel like, right, I'm visiting this, is this beautiful, ornate building.
• 10:53
  And, and yes, a degree night can be hectic.
• 10:55
  I'm sure all the officers and brother, ev- it's just, just a little bit of chaos- Mm-hmm as it is, but you were okay with that.
• 11:00
  You s-"Let, let me help out," because clearly the, the vibe had to be very welcoming for you to say,"Hey, p- don't worry about it.
• 11:07
  I'll do that." 100%.
• 11:09
  Um, it felt good to, to be able to contribute in, in any way, Now, I think one of the things that surprised me most about St.
• 11:19
  John's was just how, how welcoming the brothers were from the very beginning, from that first dinner.
• 11:28
  At St.
• 11:29
  John's, you have to walk up three flights of stairs to get there.
• 11:32
  There's, there's no elevator yet.
• 11:35
  but from the moment I took that journey, that deliberate journey up those stairs, and it took a little courage, honestly.
• 11:44
  Um, I didn't know what to expect.
• 11:47
  but the moment stepping foot in there, I was greeted by, a few brothers who immediately took me on a tour of the lodge.
• 11:56
  I had never seen these folks in my life, and what surprised me is that now a year and a half later, they are some of the closest people in my life.
• 12:05
  I, I cannot imagine my life without those guys.
• 12:11
  And I don't think there, there are many times in our lives where, when we can say that, honestly.
• 12:17
  that as an adult, we cross paths with someone and then in a short span of time consider them part of our, our inner circle.
• 12:32
  Part-- Someone that we would not hesitate to call in a crisis, someone that we would not hesitate to call to, to celebrate a win.
• 12:44
  it's remarkable Is it safe to say you would describe that as being authentic?
• 12:51
  There was a level of trust, a connection that, to your point, you just don't see that every day out in the world at work anywhere really.
• 13:02
  Trust, connection, vulnerability.
• 13:06
  Yeah.
• 13:06
  Can you say more about that?
• 13:09
  You know, being a part of Freemasonry isn't the same as being part of a book club, isn't the same as, as, uh, any other fraternal group What have you enjoyed the most about getting to know the brothers of your lodge at Acacia and, and being part of the lodge just in general?
• 13:30
  you meet people that you would never have crossed paths with but for Freemasonry.
• 13:36
  you-- I work in technology.
• 13:39
  I spend a lot of time around people that are very much, tech-loving like myself.
• 13:43
  They're in technology.
• 13:44
  They're, you know, they've chose that as a career path.
• 13:47
  A lot of the people that I grew up with, that I've kept in touch with are very much very similar profile to me, and I love that the people that I'm meet-meeting through my lodge are of all different backgrounds.
• 14:01
  a lot of just diverse ways of looking at the world, interesting, perspectives, different career paths.
• 14:11
  But we all have this common thread, brotherhood, that, uh, mutual care and support, interest in everyone else's self-improvement.
• 14:22
  it's just very special to me that, um, I-- there's no cookie cutter feeling like I'm just meeting people that are all like each other.
• 14:31
  Um, I'm meeting people that have very different, things to bring to the lodge, and that has been a very special, special part of Masonry for me.
• 14:44
  Has anything you've experienced so far changed the way you think about yourself or your life?
• 14:54
  You know, I think Freemasonry affirms something that I've always known about myself and about the world, but had perhaps forgotten or taken for granted You know, I spent most of my 30s and the first few years of my 40s devoted myself to work, uh, like, uh, Brother Ben Youngdahl.
• 15:23
  I'm in- also in technology.
• 15:25
  Uh- Two Bens and both in technology.
• 15:28
  What are the odds?
• 15:31
  And so I, uh, I had also grown very introverted over the years.
• 15:37
  and like, uh, Ben, I was also extremely extroverted in college.
• 15:41
  Would you say that's a result of working at home remotely?
• 15:44
  Was it a post-COVID?
• 15:46
  Was it having the, the ability to get Zoom and Teams so readily available or just being in your thoughts all day or is it a combination of all of that?
• 15:54
  I think a combination of, of everything, but I, I will say that the, the post-COVID moment, uh, really accelerated, how much I worked from home, how isolated I was from other clients, other colleagues, and I always had an evolving clever story to justify it, such as,"Oh, you know, uh, I'm much better off being alone anyway.
• 16:24
  Think of how much time I, I have to, to do XYZ." Or,"Oh, you know, the, your 30s and 40s, those are your productive decades.
• 16:32
  Uh, it's, it's normal to-" Optimize to do nothing but work." E-exactly.
• 16:36
  Uh, work harder.
• 16:36
  Yeah.
• 16:37
  Exactly.
• 16:38
  but I realized, and this goes back to, to this idea of, of searching for a beacon.
• 16:46
  I, I, I realized that, we are not built for that.
• 16:51
  We are not built for that world.
• 16:53
  As comfortable as it is to, to wake up, to get my coffee, go upstairs to my office, sit down, and work for eight hours a day in near isolation- And in very comfortable clothing too.
• 17:06
  Very comfortable clothing.
• 17:11
  I noticed that there was still something missing, And it wasn't going to be-- The answer wasn't going to be delivered to me.
• 17:22
  It was not something I could-- The answer was not something I could DoorDash, honestly.
• 17:28
  It was something that I had to, to seek out.
• 17:30
  And, and so what Freemasonry has, has reminded me of is, is that we are dependent upon each other.
• 17:40
  There is a...
• 17:42
  You know, we go back to, to this idea of, of washing the dishes, and there is a feeling, a, a good feeling that's like,"Hey, this group of guys needed me to, to wash these dishes." It felt good to be needed, right?
• 17:58
  To- To contribute.
• 17:59
  To contribute.
• 18:00
  Even in the most mundane way of- this necessary evil the meal's over, now who's gonna clean up?
• 18:06
  Yeah, exactly.
• 18:07
  So Freemasonry has, has reminded me that we need each other.
• 18:16
  We, we need community.
• 18:17
  We need to feel as though we can c-contribute to something.
• 18:21
  We need to feel as though we can depend on someone, and that someone can depend on, on us, and there's that reciprocal feeling that, that, that makes our lives worth living.
• 18:37
  And you can't find that behind a screen.
• 18:39
  You can't find it behind a screen.
• 18:44
  The Masonic experience is here to provide the opportunity for authentic friendship, personal growth, becoming that better version of ourselves, and building community both within the lodge and within the literal communities in which our lodges are located and even where we live I've spoken to some young men who are interested in learning more about our organization, and there's one sentence that will stick out in my mind forever.
• 19:15
  This, this young man said,"I wanna become a Freemason so you guys can tell me what to do." And I thought to myself,"How would I even explain this?"'Cause we are not here to tell someone how it should be done.
• 19:31
  We are here to be with one another on the journey of life, a support system.
• 19:37
  We celebrate when it's time to celebrate, and we answer the phone at 3:00 AM when life happens what would you tell that guy?
• 19:46
  to me it feels like a complete inversion of really what's happening, is you're being given tools and a, really gi- Sym- symbolic tools symbolic tools.
• 19:57
  Yeah.
• 19:58
  Symbolic tools.
• 19:59
  And you're being gifted this relationship.
• 20:01
  People are giving of themselves, you know, showing up, being there, caring about you, so that you can work on yourself.
• 20:11
  And then it's, it's enabling you to, to take the initiative for yourself.
• 20:17
  it would be just a complete inversion to me for somebody to think that it's like showing up at the, you know, for surgery or something, and they just have to show up and something's gonna happen to them, and they're gonna walk out the door better, or they're gonna get some list of instructions on what exactly to do.
• 20:33
  When, um, you know, I, I think it's, it's more like the Socratic method or something else where you are, your response is m- more important than what you're being told or what's being said to you.
• 20:47
  Um, and that involves a level of discernment, a level of introspection, a level of quiet contemplation and participation that that, uh, individual was, was just not ready for or not thinking that they, realizing that that's what they needed.
• 21:06
  So I hope that they, the light bulb went on for that person at some point because, um, I think they, um, very much could use that, that participation.
• 21:16
  Any thoughts?
• 21:17
  Um, Freemasonry gives you the symbolic tools.
• 21:20
  It does not give you the answers I was recently in Washington, DC at the House of the Temple, the Scottish Rite.
• 21:31
  Outside of the temple room inscribed into a chair.
• 21:35
  It says,"Know thyself." Know thyself was written over the portals of the ancient temples of initiation, self-knowledge being the aim of their intention and the goal of their purpose.
• 21:47
  It is the tersest, wisest of instructions.
• 21:52
  Know thyself is really the core purpose of Freemasonry.
• 21:57
  Masonic scholars argue that true self-knowledge is not an intellectual exercise, but a lifelong difficult process of shifting your awareness away from your temporary ego toward the divine spark inside of you.
• 22:13
  No longer living for one's own sake, but for the uplifting and advancement of his fellow men.
• 22:19
  He lives now to help on that of humanity Are those mere words or an opportunity beyond comprehension?
• 22:33
  Modern culture is structurally built around reinforcing the exact opposite of know thyself, that the material world is the only reality that matters, and it drowns out that divine spark The ego.
• 22:50
  Wilmhurst referred to it as the unreal self.
• 22:53
  It desperately wants to maintain control.
• 22:57
  Spiritual labor, specifically striving to know thyself, offers no quick dopamine hits.
• 23:03
  In fact, it can feel like invisible progress.
• 23:07
  Sitting in silence and wrestling with your own mind requires significantly more energy than passively consuming entertainment or doom scrolling.
• 23:18
  Our pursuit that we've discussed in Freemasonry, this journey requires an active, committed effort.
• 23:25
  It's a test of will, not just intellect.
• 23:30
  I took some of these passages out of, Masonic Initiation.
• 23:35
  by Wilmhurst.
• 23:37
  It was published 100 years ago, and it, it sounds and reads like it was written last week.
• 23:42
  And also check out Fraternal Review.
• 23:44
  It's a periodical out of California that's just some tremendous insights and thought-provoking articles inside.
• 23:51
  What are you, what are your thoughts on what I just shared?
• 23:56
  I feel like so much of life, people just expect to be programmed.
• 24:00
  They- Right?
• 24:01
  Like,"Tell me what to do," right?
• 24:02
  Like, yeah.
• 24:02
  So, you know, social media, other things are all sort of giving people a consumable, purchasable idea of who they are.
• 24:11
  people a- just a- adopt themselves to, um styles and things that are, you what's popular now.
• 24:21
  and they allow themselves to sort of be knocked around in the winds of the fickleness of all of that in life.
• 24:28
  And I love that in Freemasonry, there's this encouragement to focus on your authentic voice, what your, your authentic, who you are, and to, um, I, I think that article stated really eloquently.
• 24:44
  I think a lot about large language models and AI and the way that we've taken this huge corpus of all these things that people have written down, and now we're using that as if it's a source of knowledge to predict the next thing, to predict the next token.
• 25:02
  it feels like there's this loss of the idea of that spark that comes from us that's unique, that isn't just something that someone else has said rehashed, but is actually that divine spark in us.
• 25:16
  And so as I look towards, you know, what Masonry is empowering me to do is to connect to that, spark in me as opposed to just expecting to take on some popular culture or, social media set of viewpoints.
• 25:33
  But actually, that's one of the things I-- This is going off on a lot of little tangent, but one of the things I love about Masonry is in a world that's so polarized where people can't even talk to each other about a lot of things because they're just sort of like,"Well, I'm in this camp, and you're in this camp, and so we're just gonna totally avoid talking about these important things in life." And we can't be friends in that case, right?
• 25:53
  We can't, we can't be friends.
• 25:54
  We can't find any common ground.
• 25:56
  We can't disagree agreeably.
• 25:57
  Exactly.
• 25:58
  Yeah.
• 25:58
  None of that.
• 25:58
  This-- That is this world.
• 25:59
  And, um, I love that in Masonry, we set aside certain things that are very personal and could be the, the source of, um, that sort of irrevo- irresolvable conflict, but we still respect each other's inherent right to have those opinions.
• 26:19
  And we live in a time right now where fostering that respect is so important to combat the programming that's happening to us throughout so much of life.
• 26:32
  So yeah, It often feels like we're waiting to be told what to do and resonating with that thought process because we're scared to death that our friends, our family, that our social media connections won't know that we side with a particular thing And what you described really does capture the beauty of the Masonic experience.
• 26:55
  We do not discuss religion.
• 26:56
  We do not argue about politics.
• 26:58
  And those two things have been in place for hundreds of years, probably part of why we're still in business today,'cause what a refreshing place to be.
• 27:07
  We're talking about our lives, our families, our work endeavors, our hobbies, things that we can all coalesce around, and leaving some of the divisive topics out in the world.
• 27:19
  And ideally, if we're doing this right, we are going back into our personal lives and our professional lives.
• 27:28
  Maybe we won't agree on everything, but can we disagree agreeably?
• 27:32
  Can we be curious enough to know why this person feels this way about something and what that compares to my opinion or your opinion without saying,"Well, that's a deal breaker.
• 27:44
  You voted for that guy, therefore, well, we can't be friends"?
• 27:50
  I feel like Freemasonry really has this recipe for a more harmonious world, but that requires all of us to live it.
• 27:58
  I, I heard a friend recently say that he, he compared that to the guy that goes to church on Sunday and says all the things, and agrees with all of the liturgy being shared, and then goes back into the world and just doesn't even try.
• 28:12
  Now, we're, we're not perfect, and we're never going to be perfect, but are we willing to be that proverbial change?
• 28:22
  That line I read earlier,"No longer living for one's own sake, but for the uplifting and advancement of his fellow men, he lives now to help on that of humanity." That doesn't mean we're gonna go out and change the globe, but can we have a positive impact in our little corner of the world to not be the one adding so much static, or to-- have that respect for one another, What are your thoughts?
• 28:48
  Well, the first thing that came to mind was the modern world is fueled by distraction.
• 28:56
  Distraction and consumption.
• 29:00
  There's nothing scarier to an algorithm than a silent room, than a room where we've turned off our devices And that's what Freemasonry gives us.
• 29:12
  It gives us that space to be curious.
• 29:15
  That's what binds us.
• 29:16
  We all have opinions.
• 29:18
  We all have affiliations.
• 29:20
  We all have different backgrounds, different experiences.
• 29:24
  We might not agree on, on everything, but what we share is, is a mutual curiosity about the world, a mutual curiosity about ourselves, about becoming better men, and, and, and that's what, that's what binds us.
• 29:42
  And no algorithm can, can give us that answer because we're on that journey together, um, and we all, uh, experience the world differently.
• 29:54
  And we might come to different answers, but, but we're there together supporting one another, and, that's something that, that, that we can't get from, from social media.
• 30:04
  That's not something we can get.
• 30:06
  It is a, it is a, a peaceful rebellion from, from the modern world in, in some ways.
• 30:13
  I heard it described once as that Freemasonry is a uniquely analog experience within this digital world.
• 30:20
  We use technology, obviously, social media and all of the different platforms.
• 30:26
  But to your point, put that phone on airplane mode and go to Lodge and have this conversation, meaningful dialogue, curiosity, learning more about ourselves, learning more about our friends and brothers and their families and, and beyond that It seems so old school, I guess, but is old school the best school when it comes to that opportunity to just reconnect in a way, to your point, that, oh, that algorithm, that's so true Yeah, I, I very much appreciate that time away from technology in the lodge, in the lodge room.
• 30:59
  The fact that we h-- I, it-- What you said, um, Ben, really resonated with me.
• 31:03
  We-- Whether it's, um, you know, ringing bells for the Salvation Army or it's, um, you know, putting on a spaghetti dinner or doing things, n-very little that I've done in, with masonry, other than maybe helping with the website, has been stuff in the digital world.
• 31:20
  And I love that comparison to sort of an analog, um, an analog experience.
• 31:26
  Um, I, I wanna call out that, you know, for me, I spend eight hours a day in front of a computer.
• 31:36
  I watch my kids spend far more than eight hours many weekends sometimes.
• 31:42
  People, I don't think, really think about how much time they're actually putting into staring at a screen anymore.
• 31:48
  Whereas if you rewound 30 years and told somebody that they were gonna stare at screen that way, they probably would've been like,"Oh, like a television?" And they, they would not have been able to comprehend that almost fake interaction loop that comes from working with a computer or technology, where you, you feel like you're doing something interactive, you feel like you're doing something social, but it's just an illusion.
• 32:12
  You-- There's delays involved, there's no intimacy, there's no realness to it in many ways.
• 32:18
  And so when you're in Masonic things, we don't do things through chat rooms.
• 32:23
  We don't do things-- You know, a ritual isn't done through social media.
• 32:27
  We-we're just completely detached from that, and we're going back to things that have been done for 300 years.
• 32:33
  and we're doing, um...
• 32:36
  You know, it's, it's, it's just a really different experience, and it's very enjoyable.
• 32:41
  Uh, it is a, a really welcome break, and it started to actually make me really reconsider what I'm, what I'm doing as my career.
• 32:48
  I, like, start thinking like, Do I really wanna be doing technology and then playing video games in the evening?
• 32:54
  And no.
• 32:55
  And so it's been very easy for me to, um, shift my time and, uh, start investing that time into, into the lodge and those relationships.
• 33:09
  And technology's not going anywhere.
• 33:11
  We all use Claude and ChatGPT, and it-- But are we using it as a tool, or are we ask-asking the machine to make all of our decisions for us?
• 33:19
  It, it's the, it's the age-old question of balance.
• 33:22
  We don't wanna sound like caveman advocating we throw our phones away.
• 33:26
  Although some days I would like to throw that device as far as I could.
• 33:31
  But where can we find the balance, achieve that?
• 33:35
  As, as you look around...
• 33:37
  My wife and I were in a car today.
• 33:39
  We went to a funeral, and we, we-- It felt like every car in traffic, people are on the phone.
• 33:46
  You spend a lot of money to go to a concert, a sporting event.
• 33:49
  Why are you there if you're only gonna look at your phone while you're spending big money to be entertained?
• 33:55
  At least I thought that's why you would go there.
• 33:57
  But we-- That thing is tethered in a way that it's really important we find, achieve some way of not losing the human-to-human connection, just in general, beyond the Masonic Lodge What would you tell someone who's considering becoming a Freemason?
• 34:21
  I think I would, instead of telling them anything, I w- I would simply ask why.
• 34:28
  What attracts you to Freemasonry?
• 34:30
  What do you know about Freemasonry?
• 34:33
  Where, where are you in, in your life?
• 34:36
  What are you looking for exactly?
• 34:39
  Because if you are looking for a group or someone to tell you the answers, I can tell you right now that you won't be fed them.
• 34:52
  You will find brotherhood if you're looking for it.
• 34:54
  You will find the connection if you're looking for it.
• 34:58
  If you are willing to be vulnerable, and, and going back to this conversation about being vulnerable, if you're willing to open yourself up emotionally, intellectually to a group of, of men who at first will be complete strangers to you, then perhaps you will find what you're looking for.
• 35:24
  Perhaps you will find brothers with whom you can walk on that journey your entire life But I will say right now, Free-Freemasonry isn't a secret that gets unlocked.
• 35:38
  It is an opportunity to work on yourself, if you're willing to work on yourself, you'll find the answer right there.
• 35:48
  We carry everything with us.
• 35:50
  You know, someone a-asked me, a while ago,"Well, you know, what is the lodge?
• 35:56
  What happens in the lodge?" I had to say,"Well, you know, we are the lodge.
• 36:02
  As members, we, we are the lodge." The lodges is a room.
• 36:05
  It's, it's empty until it's not.
• 36:08
  We meet, we work on ourselves, and then when we part, we, we take the lodge with us, and, and that is the work.
• 36:17
  So if you're willing to do the work, then Freemasonry might be for you.
• 36:25
  Spiritual labor, specifically striving to know thyself, offers no quick dopamine hits.
• 36:33
  It can feel like invisible progress.
• 36:35
  Sitting in silence and wrestling with your own mind requires significantly more energy than passively consuming entertainment or doom scrolling.
• 36:46
  The test of will, not just intellect.
• 36:50
  Are we willing to acknowledge our imperfections, the areas in which we could become that better version of oneself?
• 36:57
  Perfection's never going to be attained, but are we willing to get off of the autopilot mentality of,"Well, this is just who I am.
• 37:06
  I'm just kind of a..." No We have to do the work.
• 37:12
  And to your point, if you're willing to take that on, it's a lifelong journey of authentic connection, support, love, and friendship in a way that's hard to describe to an outsider I'm pulling out the random questions now.
• 37:31
  What are you too hard on yourself about?
• 37:35
  I think I'm really too hard on myself about the past and things that have already happened, and that I don't put a-- I, um, enough appreciation on the fact that the, the failings, the mistakes, the, the things that I've done wrong, were all necessary to get me to this point to do what is right.
• 37:57
  for example, when I think about, well, why didn't I join Masonry when I was younger?
• 38:02
  Why did I wait?
• 38:03
  Which I beat myself up a-about way too much.
• 38:07
  I'm reminded that, um, I can't believe in a, a great architect of the universe without believing in an architecture, and that there's a reason why this point in space exists and I am here, and that what's more important is the intention and motive in what I do next.
• 38:27
  I'm still working on that part of me to not beat up on myself about the, the things that I've made mistakes in, and to be a little bit more, um, uh, self-accepting in that way.
• 38:38
  But, uh, that's a perspective that I'm, I'm gaining now, how to, how to chip those things away.
• 38:48
  What is a rule you wish you did not have to abide by?
• 38:54
  Well, having owned my own business for the last four or five years now, uh, you know, I think a rule that I wish I didn't have to live by was, was simply the rule of, of rest.
• 39:07
  Really?
• 39:09
  Uh- Unplugging not your thing?
• 39:11
  Unplugging.
• 39:11
  Oh, yeah.
• 39:11
  It, it's, it's difficult.
• 39:13
  You know, as, as a business owner, it, you know, you talk about dopamine rushes.
• 39:17
  I mean, uh, being a business owner is, is nothing but dopamine rushes of, of, of solving that next challenge, uh, be it technical or personnel or, or, or whatnot.
• 39:34
  And so, uh, you know, I very quickly found myself working, 12, 15 hours a day it seemed very easily.
• 39:40
  and I'm a former educator.
• 39:42
  I, I, grew up, you know, with...
• 39:44
  And both my, my parents were educators, and so we, we lived on that, you know, 9 to 3:30 schedule, summers off.
• 39:52
  Wonderful.
• 39:53
  The moment I become a business owner, working 24/7, uh, you know, it seems like.
• 39:58
  if I could, I would work all the time, but you know what?
• 40:01
  what are we taught as, as, as Freemasons?
• 40:03
  We need to divide our time, right?
• 40:06
  Yes.
• 40:06
  The 24-inch gauge.
• 40:07
  The 24-inch gauge.
• 40:08
  You know, one of our first tools.
• 40:10
  And, and I will say that that was, that was a, a, a slap on the face in, in the best possible way.
• 40:17
  Yeah.
• 40:17
  Is that a w- little wake-up call almost?
• 40:19
  Little wake-up call.
• 40:19
  Yeah.
• 40:20
  Yep.
• 40:20
  every day get a little better.
• 40:23
  I recently heard someone say that discipline is not just regimented hard work, but it's also ensuring rest, relaxation, or reflection, and that progress is fine.
• 40:36
  'Cause when I think of discipline, it's usually count every calorie, work harder, optimize more.
• 40:41
  I don't need to sleep.
• 40:42
  I'll just-- I can run on three, four hours.
• 40:43
  But no, d-discipline is also...
• 40:46
  log off, unplug, give yourself that time to just get into your, your headspace and relax a little bit.
• 40:53
  But this world tells us the opposite all the time.
• 40:57
  And we don't realize that we, we don't remember that we need it until we get it again, until we get that white space and that moment of quiet, quiet, and then you realize,"Oh, shoot, I've, I, I've needed this." what did you do as a teenager that you wish you hadn't?
• 41:14
  Oh boy, this really feeds into my previous answer.
• 41:18
  Um- Are your children listening right now?
• 41:19
  Yeah, my children are listening.
• 41:20
  Yeah.
• 41:20
  Um, I think it would be that I didn't really listen well enough to the older voices in my life.
• 41:30
  I didn't really-- I, I was so focused on approval of my peers and the thoughts of the people that were the same age as me, that I didn't really think about, um, really the opportunities that I had to learn from people that were, you know, two, three times my age.
• 41:48
  And I think that that's one of the things when I think back about, what would I like to have become a Mason when I t-turned 18?
• 41:55
  To have those mentorship relationships, to have those relationships with other people in the lodge of, you know, people that were older, were able to share that kind of, um, you know, journey of self-improvement.
• 42:07
  You know, I really wish as a teenager that I'd just been paying a little bit more attention to that, the wisdom that was around me, as opposed to the, um, the dopamine hits that were so much closer.
• 42:22
  What is something you strongly dislike that you feel like you can't usually talk about?
• 42:30
  I think we've been talking about it actually The Constant distractions around us, the tendency to consume.
• 42:45
  We always talk about the media.
• 42:47
  You know, y- you just said yourself, we, we don't wanna come across as, as the cavemen, you know, resisting technology and resisting change.
• 42:54
  but as, as a former educator, uh, you know, my background is in, in history and so I, I don't wanna come across as, as being unappreciative of the advancements around us.
• 43:09
  We live a pretty good life being able to open up our, our AI models, Claude, Chatty, uh, I call mine Chatty by the way.
• 43:19
  Um, and, you know, asking for advice and, and, and whatnot.
• 43:24
  You know, I, I don't wanna come across as being unappreciative of that because we are surrounded by wonders.
• 43:32
  But there is that nagging part of me that wants to resist it, that wants to shake my fist at it a bit, you know, from my front porch.
• 43:43
  And, and I think it just comes down to balance.
• 43:45
  It comes down to balance and are we willing as our generation to find out, to discover how to balance it all That's the question.
• 43:58
  Can we balance it?
• 43:59
  It's, it's not a question of should we use it or should we not use it?
• 44:02
  It's how do we use it responsibly?
• 44:06
  and I was, I was talking with my husband the other day, and we were remarking about how, as business owners,'cause we, we own our business together, in technology, that we use AI every day to, to help us solve problems.
• 44:25
  And in, in some ways, it's, it's made our lives much easier.
• 44:30
  We are able to take on more clients.
• 44:32
  We are able to, to do more work in less amount of time than we ever have before.
• 44:40
  But we also realized that in doing so, that we find that almost all of our day is spent making high-stakes decisions There is very few opportunities now during the day to sit back and perform that menial task, to spend an hour designing a PowerPoint, to spend an entire afternoon writing a, a really important email to a client.
• 45:13
  The equivalent of doing the dishes.
• 45:15
  The equivalent of doing the dishes.
• 45:18
  There's no time now for that.
• 45:20
  We, you know, we have, we have outsourced those tasks to, to our AI models, and we are now presented with a never-ending string of really high-stakes decisions.
• 45:33
  So we haven't actually freed ourselves up.
• 45:36
  We haven't gained any time.
• 45:38
  We haven't gained any leisure time.
• 45:40
  we give our, our, our AI a task, and then we immediately go on and, and start that next thing.
• 45:46
  So that's why, that's why I talk about, you know, are we willing to, to find that balance?
• 45:51
  Because if we're not careful, we, we will not gain that balance.
• 45:55
  We will not gain that white space.
• 45:57
  We will not, idealically be able to, walk through the park while the technology does all the work.
• 46:04
  We, we will, as humans, we will find things to do.
• 46:07
  We will fill our schedules up, and the danger is that we will fill our schedules up with nothing but high-stakes, stressful tasks, and, and we become managers.
• 46:19
  We're, we're all managers in training, uh, in that, in that way, and that's, uh, that's what I'm worried about.
• 46:29
  What are you most looking forward to as you continue your Masonic journey?
• 46:34
  Well, I just petitioned the Scottish Rite.
• 46:37
  I'm very excited about taking those degrees.
• 46:39
  I understand that it's sort of like the University of Masonry.
• 46:41
  I understand that they're not higher degrees than the Blue Lodge degrees, but they help-- will help me better understand and grow from those degrees.
• 46:50
  And so that's exciting to me because I've loved so much the degrees of the Blue Lodge that I am very much excited about reflecting more on those through the wisdom in the, in the Scottish Rite and eventually the York Rite, because I, I also have that on my radar.
• 47:06
  I'm very excited about, the ability to, um, just participate at another level now.
• 47:13
  and it's just such a feeling of joy of knowing like, oh, I have this great thing to look forward to.
• 47:18
  I'm very excited about the fall and the spring at the moment.
• 47:22
  Ben Engle, Ben Youngdahl, it's been a pleasure chatting with you two and your perspective through the eyes of a newer Mason.
• 47:30
  I, I think this has just been fascinating.
• 47:33
  Yeah, likewise.
• 47:33
  Thank you for having me.
• 47:35
  Yeah.
• 47:35
  Thank you, Reid.