Latest / Goodlife Church Formation Podcast / Romans 13-16 : The role of state, church, family, individual and God's justice vs love
Transcript
- Jack: Well, welcome back to another episode of the podcast. Thank you, Rebecca. You've learned you've look at you you can you can improve. Dave Connett: That just happened again, but that was you that time, Jack. You were talking. ⁓ Jack: No, no, no. I was on time. ⁓ we are here. Welcome all. ⁓ Pastor Dave, for those watching on YouTube, they'll be able to see our shorts, our episodes, all the things. ⁓ speaking of shorts, ⁓ are you wearing those strange baggy pants that everyone seemed to comment on? I don't know that anyone remembers your sermon other than your pants. Can you please explain? Dave Connett: ⁓ my eighteen year old son is trying to help me get out of skinny jeans and let's just say that the baggy pants that I've gone and bought are ⁓ quite baggy. They're so comfortable, Jack. They are so comfortable. ⁓ anyway, so Joel is just happy as a pig in mud that his dad is in some baggy pants. ⁓ I didn't feel comfortable in my soul, but I felt comfortable in the f in the flesh, in the you in the in the physical side of things. It was like wearing jimmy jams, my friend. Jack: Okay. Well, I'm glad to hear that you feel comfortable in your flesh, I think. But anyway, ⁓ and Bex, good to see you've purged your space of all evil spirits. Dave Connett: In in that storm. Bex: Hopefully. No more Buddhas lurking, maybe behind that couch, I don't know. Jack: Can't be sure, can't be certain. Bex: Can't be certain, might need to pray through the area. Jack: Yes, okay. Pray and fasting. all right, let's do this. ⁓ Pastor Dave, we we wrapped up Romans la yesterday at the time of recording. Jake Harrison, give us the ⁓ give us the cliff notes. Bex: Wish I say. Dave Connett: Yeah. Well, the the whole the whole point of ⁓ look he did have four chapters to get through and ⁓ one of the chapters in Romans Romans chapter sixteen is a phone book and so it's to talk about this person and greet this person, greet this person, and this person's chosen by the Lord and so there's a little bit of a phone book there. Now all of those individual people that's important, they're there for a reason and there's there's links to the call of God and the grace of God in ⁓ like when you see where they came from and what they've done and where they go to from Bex: . you Dave Connett: ⁓ at this point. There's a lot of there's a commissioning in chapter thirteen. There's talking about the government, which was interesting that Jake Harrison was the one talking about honouring honoring the government when the last country he was in, he was kicked out of as a religious terrorist. I thought that was actually ironic. I didn't realise until he was in the middle of it. But the submission of governing authorities, I think it's very interesting as Christians to know what the government's role is, because sometimes Christians think that the government's role is their role. Bex: you you Dave Connett: And then they think that their role should be taken by the government. It's interesting how that can be a significant thing. ⁓ there goes to a commissioning. And then 14 and 15 is kind of how to do it, how to actually outwork the gospel, how to outwork the preaching of the gospel and to take the grace of God, that commissioning and take it into the world with the fulfillment of the law being the love to God and then the love to other people. So really became quite the commissioning. Bex: Mm-hmm. It was awesome. Dave Connett: for ⁓ for Jake to really go for it and ⁓ man, the boy was fired up. Jack: Amazing what you can do on lack of sleep. Dave Connett: Yes. ⁓ Jack: speaking of the phone book, ⁓ we don't need to go down this rabbit warren, but ⁓ a podcast that the three of us enjoy is ⁓ is the Live Free podcast. ⁓ Josh Howerton and Co over at Lake Point spoke about that phone book. Did I share with you guys the the clip about ⁓ you mentioned the phone book and Quartus specifically? Bex: No. Dave Connett: Look, I don't remember that one. I I remember watching the I've I I listened to their free podcast every week, but I don't remember the bit about Cortus. Bex: Sorry, Cortis, is he one of the guys? I'm not seeing your name there. Jack: ⁓ wow. Okay, well I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna butcher I'm gonna butcher this. I'm gonna butcher this, but let me let me give it a a 30 second crack. ⁓ Pastor Josh on the Live Free Podcast. Go and listen to it, Good Life is by the way, you'll you'll love it. but he he mentions some of the names through that phone book of Romans 16 and Quartus was the number four, right? And ⁓ they you Bex: Yeah, great. Jack: The the Romans thought so lowly of ⁓ was it orphans, Dave, or or those who were who were born out of wedlock or Yep, children of slaves. And so the significance of Paul mentioning Quartus by name is that he would never have otherwise had a name, is an insignificant number in a slave situation in Roman land, and yet is known by name for eternity. Dave Connett: Okay. Yep, two and fives. Yep. Bex: you Wow. Okay. Dave Connett: So it it that was ⁓ man, it's because the kid was born. So the word Quartus is the number four, which is Quartus was the fourth child. So insignificant, we don't give a name, we give a number, because it's the fourth child to that slave. And all of a sudden, Paul actually mentioning this person in the gospel forever. This is recorded in the Bible. That no matter where you come from, no matter your beginnings, no matter your family, that God sees you, you are knit together in your mother's womb and you are recognized and can do great things for God. It is unbelievable. How good is that? The turnaround that God can do. Jack: Wild. ⁓ yeah, so Dave Connett: Verse ⁓ verse twenty three. Jack: In Romans sixteen, there you go. ⁓ okay, so so Bex: Yeah, Reven 16, this 23. ⁓ Sorry, before we move on from the phone book, one other thing I love about Romans 16 is that ⁓ there's, think he mentions 29 people or 30 people or something, and 10 of them are women. And so people have this idea of Paul saying, you know, women can't get involved, they can't lead, they can't da da da. But he's mentioning ⁓ deacons, he's mentioning teachers, he's mentioning fellow workers and like he's just. and commending women who are actively involved in the ministry alongside him. yeah, 10 of the 30 people are women in this list in chapter 16. So it just kind of pushes back on that idea that Paul was like, no, women can't actually be involved in leadership and roles of responsibility in the church, because he actually had the same, he did it. He had women in leadership in his churches. There you go. Jack: He did. How good. How good. So so there's a there's this notion of ⁓ concentric circles, you know, when we when we ⁓ conceptualize different ideas through through the faith and through scripture, right? ⁓ I think maybe Dave, we've spoken, maybe Bex wasn't there on that on a podcast around kind of gospel centered ministry versus gospel informed ministry. And it's like is the gospel the only thing we talk about, or is the gospel inform everything that we talk about? And then there's the same is true we see come through in Romans thirteen that that Jake preached on yesterday around ⁓ this notion of different authorities, right? And it's the the the family and the church and the state is one way to conceptualize different sort of concentric circles of authority. ⁓ is that it, Dave, when you think of those three circles, is is there anything else that's missing? Or does those do those three things, the family, the church and the state, capture all the the levels of authority, so to speak? Bex: Okay. Okay. Dave Connett: Look, there is all the the individual does live within each of those. ⁓ but the individual so b the only control that's condoned in the Bible is self-control. You can't control another. It is incumbent upon you to actually control yourself and to bring ⁓ your spirit, soul, and your body under the subjection to the will of God. And so God certainly gives up free will to individuals and then Jack: Uh-huh. Bex: Okay. Okay. Dave Connett: puts us within community. Says it's not good for man to be alone. I'm going to make you a helper comparable. And so we get to be the help and receive help alongside. As iron sharpens iron, so a man's ⁓ brother, you his countenance sharpens the other. And so that that sharpening is going to create some spark sometimes. And actually that's how God wants us to to live in situations where there's going to be some sparks and there's going to be some rough edges knocked off and there's going to be some Bex: . . Dave Connett: shaping that comes from a little bit of friction. And so yeah, it does happen within family, within church, ⁓ and within ⁓ and within nations and nation states. ⁓ and so what we want is we we want to pray for the peace of our nation. We want our nation to be prosperous. And so we want to be able to express our faith, but also we need to be ⁓ we need to ⁓ I I I suppose Bex: . . Dave Connett: l lobby and pray for and make sure that we do the things that ensure that we can continue to express freedom of religion ⁓ in our nation. And so what we want is our government to do what is said in chapter thirteen and realise that yes, the government is actually it's it's incumbent upon the government to bear a sword. It's to be a terror to those that do wrong justice. is ⁓ is in the hands of the government and God puts it in the hands of the government to fulfill. now that's that's justice when when ⁓ when it when it when then when there's laws that are broken. Now God's heart for justice to feed the poor and to take care of society is upon the church and the individual and the family. But oftentimes in our world what we have is a government through a Bex: you you Dave Connett: taxation and redistribution system you actually have that the government does that and it creates an upside down land jack. It's an interesting way and so what you want to understand is the sovereignty of God in every different sphere. What's our responsibility as individuals? What's our responsibility in families? What's our responsibility as a church and what's the government's responsibility? Now how do we as individuals, families and a church engage in government when we're a representative democracy. This is a huge conversation, Jack, because a lot of people get it upside down of what's our personal responsibility, the churches, the families and the governments. And we think that one's meant to do it when actually this one's meant to do it. Jack: There was so much in that and I n I know that much of that was y like you were quoting scripture without giving us chapter and verse. ⁓ Bex, do you perhaps want to maybe add some ⁓ some scriptural rigor underpinning to some of those? You know, Dave mentions that it's the it's the government's role to bear the sword. That's not just a turn of phrase, right? That is that's Bible. Bex: Yeah, Romans thirteen. ⁓ it says Romans thirteen ⁓ verse three for rulers hold no terror for those who do right but for those who do wrong. And then it says you know if you want to be free from fear of the one authority then do what is right and then it says the one in authority is God's servant for your good but if you do wrong be afraid for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason they are God's servants agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. So it is actually it's interesting I was in the conversation with someone recently And they were talking about a particular government and they are not from this country, they're from a different country, but this particular government, they were talking about how that government behaved in a very Christian manner in terms of its welfare. And I tried to say, well, actually that same government has pushed through abortion laws where abortion is legal and allowable up to birth for any reason at 40 weeks. terrible that is an abomination and he's like, yeah, but they're very kind to the poor by giving welfare and and I realized it actually had it upside down they were wanting the government to do what the church and individuals should do and And saying, know, the government should behave in a Christian manner But actually the government should bear the sword. The government is the one bringing injustice bringing justice not injustice and and You know bringing punishment upon the evildoer according to Romans 13 ⁓ And then the church should be the one being Christian. So it's an upside down kind of way of thinking about it. We're expecting the government to do what the church should do. And I think it's really interesting because I've seen, what I've seen is the government trying to encroach, right? So not only are we expecting the government to do what the church should be doing and what individuals should be doing, ⁓ the government is now encroaching. So the government is now moving in on matters of religion. morality, doctrines of the word of God that has been taught for 2000 years and suddenly we're not allowed to teach it anymore or even read out those scriptures. The governments are now coming into that realm. But also the government's trying to come into family, right? So they are now actually trying to encroach on the family and what we can teach our children. All those kinds of things and it's upside down land where the three different spheres, the church, the state, and the family. are being encroached on, the state is encroaching on the church and the family. And the church and the family or the church and the individual are now sitting back and expecting the government to do what we should be doing. Jack: Right. And so how much of this stems from ⁓ may perhaps not in incorrect theology, but maybe incomplete theology around the nature of who God is, right? Like we hear God is love. But perhaps that should come from the root that God is holy and God is just. And a just God doesn't just promote justice. It's too many words in there, but a God resists a a g a holy God resists injustice. And that is the manifestation of God as love. Did I phrase that in a palatable way? Bex: Yeah, think, think I know Dave will want to speak to this. So just before he does, like historically how we've got here is you're looking at I guess the the and about just is, you know, go back 500 years, they were massive. And their whole idea was to withdraw from society and not be involved in society as opposed to Augustine. goes back you know 1700 years and he was like no very much like we should be the church should be in every sphere of society and and so somehow today there's this idea in the church of that Anabaptist that pacifism that I don't want call it apathy but almost lethargy that like the world's just going to be bad and we should be over here doing our good thing and number one is is that whole perspective is not actually biblical because all through the word of God you see God using people in government, right? Joseph was the two I see to Pharaoh. ⁓ Daniel was third in the kingdom under multiple pagan kings, know, for the Babylonian and the Persian empires. ⁓ Esther, God used her with the king, right? ⁓ There was, you know, the wife of Herod's steward was helping to finance the work of the kingdom. right? So you have multiple areas where God has used people in the word of God, Old Testament and New Testament. John the Baptist went hard at Herod because he was committing adultery and we go, ⁓ no, we can't speak to political matters. can't look at the word of God. It's there all the way through and ⁓ I just love this quote. This is from ⁓ Abraham Kuyper and this is from This concept that again, Josh Howerton talks to on his podcast a lot called Sphere Sovereignty, which is what Jack's been referring to. And it says here, is not a square inch in the whole domain of our human life of which Christ, who is sovereign of all, does not cry mine. It's all his. And we, as his representatives, should be involved and engaged in that. And for me, that's become even stronger since I've become a grandmother, because I actually go. I can't sit back apathetic and lethargic anymore because what kind of world and what kind of nation am I leaving for my grandson? Like it's actually incumbent on me to leave a better doodoo, all I can to leave a better nation and a better community for my, the generations coming after me. And sitting back and doing nothing is just not an option for me anymore. Jack: Well, it brings a whole new meaning to ⁓ we a good person leaves an inheritance for their children's children, right? Maybe our Western materialistic mind thinks about our superannuation funds, but ⁓ that inheritance is far more than financial. Dave, ⁓ you can speak to the God is love, but I think maybe that Anabaptist angle majors on God is love, or Jesus said to turn the other cheek, right? So so should we not that like that's that's in red. What should we do with that, Dave? Dave Connett: I it look y you're always gonna end up in trouble if you take scriptures out of their context, Jack. And so you've got to work out who the subject is and who the audience is. And so Jesus was talking to individuals, turn the other cheek. But definitely the scriptures say that the government the s the authorities that exist have been established by God. That is verse one of chapter thirteen in Romans. Bex: Yeah. you Jack: Right. Dave Connett: For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. The whole point of government is to protect its people from wrong, the from external and internal threats. So the thought that ⁓ turning the other cheek would be a Christian government role is misunderstanding the scriptures. Turn the other cheek is my role, Jack. Turn the other cheek is the individual's role. To and if more Christians did that, we would shine brighter and when we preach, people would hear it and understand more. I don't want the government, I'm I like I mean, I grew up on welfare, Jack. Like I grew I grew up in a in a home of ⁓ disability and poverty and pension, and I'm so glad because we wouldn't have eaten it, but it was needed. But I I was taught by my parents to work hard because we didn't want to maintain and stay on that welfare. They didn't want their kids. Bex: Yeah. Dave Connett: To continue on with being a welfare mentality. And when people get stuck in a welfare handout receiving handout after handout, and the next generation grows up and thinks that that's normalized, it actually detrimentally affects generations and affects family trees. And so the difficult thing is to become dependent upon a welfare state, affects the families. Bex: Thank Dave Connett: Now the individuals need to take personal responsibility and look for opportunities to be generous because when you sow, you reap. So what we want is to help people find their opportunity to sow and reap. Work hard, understand those. And when you and it's nice to have a safety net. I I appreciate a safety net because I was raised in that. But what I don't want is a government that says every election, you vote for us and you will get X, Y, and Z. Bex: Okay. Okay. Dave Connett: I'm looking for a government that would say, vote for us because we are going to take care of the future of the nation. We're going to protect the borders. We're going to have strong justice so that you can live safely in your home. I I ⁓ there are there are there are teenagers, there are young people terrorizing the streets of Cameron Park where we live right now. And I'm so glad that I have a dog because no one's chasing down. They're trying, but there's no justice for the families that are getting getting Bex: Okay. . Dave Connett: Getting invaded overnight to people that take a joyride in a car. I I'm so happy that I've got a dog and big fences. Now the dog is a useless mutt, but it sounds really loud, that stupid dog. So what I want is a government that actually bears the sword for those that do evil. I what we want is a church that turns the other cheek and is generous. We want individuals that turn the other cheek and are generous to sh in the light of Jesus. And I think, Jack, that's why they say. Bex: Okay. Okay. Dave Connett: If you're not a socialist by age twenty, you don't have a heart. But if you're not a capitalist by age forty, you don't have a brain. It just doesn't work. The government's role is to bear the sword and to be a terror for those that do evil. I want a government that does that. I want individuals and a church that turn the other cheek and are generous to their community, to literally change the world that way. Bex: Mm. Jack: And so, you know, is it true that the the the government has felt like it's had to step into matters of ⁓ welfare and social justice because the the church has abdicated its responsibility, perhaps? Is that a fair statement? Dave Connett: Look, it could be. ⁓ I I I would suggest if the church does that role, then then it's not needed for the government. But it is easy. The the easiest way to win votes in a democratic system is to buy those votes. So it's the largesse of government that has got us in a huge national debt issue, which actually really affects our sovereignty as a nation, our inability to protect and defend and to actually take care of our own. ⁓ future. We are dependent. This this latest war in the Straits of Hormuz has shown how vulnerable we are as a nation because governments want to buy votes. And I can I I can tell you, election after election, all the all the majors have done that for a very long time, which is probably why people are so ticked off and really properly considering the Orange Party right now. I'm I'm vouching for none of them, Jack. That is not a political statement from me, but I think I can understand why people are ticked off. Bex: you you Dave Connett: By the system that has just tried to buy those votes or manage those votes. ⁓ and I I I want a government that that does that. So I do think if the church stood up, and the church does stand up, it is the greatest power for good and for justice and for generosity and to take care of everyone who's doing it tough. The greatest volunteers, the greatest generosity, the greatest finance comes from the church. ⁓ Jack. Now we can do better. Bex: you Dave Connett: but it is v it is it it's an interesting thing when the concept of people in the church is the government should do that. ⁓ and but we have to take that role and take the lead. And we are the ones that don't just feed the hungry, but we feed the soul and we bring them to Jesus and help them come to ⁓ a relationship with Jesus Christ and put their feet upon a solid rock and then go forward with some self agency, not dependent upon ⁓ hopefully those destructive systems. Bex: Hmm. Jack: Bex, you know, people often struggle to hold two things in tension at the same time that are true. So, how how do you think about it, Bex, when we as individuals should I say quote turn the other cheek, which ⁓ my understanding is that was really referring to offense rather than physical violence. But nevertheless, ⁓ how should we as Christians, individuals, think about our role of justice and also calling governments to Bex: Yeah. Jack: enforcing justice with the sword. Like how how can those things be true at the same time? How can we call the government to be ⁓ you know, to instill ⁓ you know, fear in those who do evil, but yet at the same time have a soft, tender heart ourselves? Bex: Yeah, look, I think we actually, Paul talks about going from the milk to the meat, right? We were just fed milk and now we have to actually learn how to chew on the meat. And I think part of that is actually learning that two things can be true at the same time. We actually need to be able to be grownups and hold these things in tension. And before I kind of answer your question, I just wanted to just adding to what Dave was saying when you were talking, Jack, about the government and, you know, the church have done more? Just for those who are interested, Dave and I were sitting in a meeting last year with a bunch of ⁓ heads of different movements, Pentecostal movements around Australia. And we were listening to a guest that was coming to speak to them from an organization called Neighbour. which is spelled N-A-Y-B-A. And what Neighbour do is they actually research and then create statistics and studies on the good that churches are doing in the community. And I mean, we're in a movement that does so much good and we were below, even though we're in that movement, we know this stuff happens, the sheer numbers will blow people's minds of what is actually taking place in communities and our nation across the board from all the churches. Protestant Catholic, know, Pentecostal, Baptist, they're all actually doing it. I think it's just not known that it's happening at the scale that it's happening. ⁓ And I think also as Dave said, from a government perspective, it's a vote winner. And I think in some ways, we actually have ourselves to blame because the government have been doing what they know wins votes and handouts win votes. And now people are waking up and going, well, hang on a second, there's no money to spend on defense. There's no money to spend on these other things. And well, you know, that's what we asked for. So I think we've got to be awake to that. in answer, sorry. Jack: Right. Mm-hmm. Well, yeah, I mean you you've taught you taught me and you re reference a book all the time around how Christianity changed the world, right? And so much of the good in the world hat is of Christian origin and root. Bex: That's right. Okay, for those who are looking on YouTube, here it is right here, How Christianity Changed the World. This book will change your life. And it goes through all different aspects of society and how Christians actually shifted it, you know, even even for respectful women and children being abandoned, all these kinds of things. ⁓ But coming back to your question, Jack, it's it's quite interesting. I actually wrote a sub stack post about it late last year about that that wrestle between the other cheek and and how we're expecting the government to turn the other cheek. We're expecting the government to you know open the door to the stranger and all these things and and and the Bible's like you know that's your responsibility as an individual and we are conflating the individual and the government and so you know even in terms of like do we are Christians okay with military strikes? right? And the context that I was writing this particular post on was after, I mean, there has been the most horrific, murderous, genocidal persecution of Nigerian Christians at the hands of Muslims for the past years, you know, and I mean, hundreds of thousands of Christians horrifically murdered, tortured, beaten, children, everything, it's just horrific. And Dave Connett: Yeah. Bex: And so, you know, military strikes were sent in to try and end this and a lot of Christians were angry because of military strikes. I'm like, well, no, that's actually correct. That's actually the right behavior. is justice. You know, we should not be allowing widespread persecution and torture and murder of Christians under the guise of turning the other cheek. That is not right. And so to your point, Jack, when Jesus was saying turn the other cheek or go within two miles or hand over your coat. He's not addressing violent assault. He's addressing insult and humiliation right? A backhanded slap to the cheek in first century Israel was an act of public shame and deliberate insult. Wasn't a violent assault. It was publicly saying you are beneath me. And so Jesus like will turn the other cheek. Like be humble right? ⁓ you're you're not just refusing to retaliate you're actually refusing to be humiliated because you are choosing to be humble. And I'm retaining my own governance and my own dignity and I'm actually free, right? And so it's actually, instead of reacting, it's actually going, hey, I'm secure in my identity in Christ, have my coat. I'm secure in who I am. You know, I'll walk with you two miles. It's actually agency, right? But then the Bible is very clear when there's wrongdoing. Jack: Yes. Bex: where there is things happening that should not be happening, then God is a God of justice and he has instituted the government to bring justice. so yeah, Christians are commanded to give generously to the poor, but we've warped it and we're expecting our government to give to the poor. And that's not generosity. That is actually forced wealth redistribution via taxation, right? And that's a false equivalent. Equivalence. And so we're going, ⁓ our government should be generous. No, it shouldn't. It should bear the sword. We should be generous. Jack: Yeah. Dave Connett: Yeah. Bex: And that's people, Christians who are misinformed are suddenly, you know, leaning towards socialism, which actually only leads to abuse and poverty and death. Look at the 20th century history. But we are expecting the government to do what we're commanded to do. And by the same token, we've actually then equated the government with individuals when it comes to justice. But it's not the government's job to turn the other cheek. It's the government's job to bear the sword. And so you've actually got to go, what is the role of me as the individual? Jack: Okay. Bex: What is the role of the government? It is not my job to seek vengeance, right? If someone comes and murders Dave tomorrow, it is not my job to seek vengeance. That is the government's job. It's my job at that point to forgive. And I think, and you know, let's talk Charlie Kirk. Erica Kirk beautifully forgave her husband's murderer, but that doesn't mean that that murderer shouldn't see justice, right? And that is the government's job. And so we've just got to understand, we've got to be grownups about this and actually hold the right roles for the right people and have that in the right spot. There you go. End of rant. Jack: It's it seems like it's very easy to be generous with other people's money. Dave Connett: Yeah, yeah. ⁓ it's so easy to be generous with other people's money. And the problem with socialists is they always run out of other people's money. And and you watch actually the current government is b ⁓ taxing things through the roof, making it very for business owned. ⁓ please. Yeah, correct. Get on that ASAP. ⁓ we're trying we're trying to make moves right now. ⁓ so but it's it's ⁓ you run out of other people's money, so you've got to up the taxes, which means productivity Bex: running out of money. Jack: Look after you look after your superannuation, good lifers. That'll be my financial advice. Dave Connett: drops. Governments do not create jobs. Governments can only so when the government starts overspending, what it means it has to tax and what it means is that productive people find other places to go. And so they will head offshore to make money. The problem is is that people that take the risk to build the business and make the job for the person are the ones that need to be encouraged. You need to have a situation where that can happen. Bex: Yeah. Mm. Dave Connett: That way. Now it does say in verse six of chapter 13 of Romans, this is also why you pay taxes. This is why you pay taxes. Why? Because if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. That is why you pay that is what the Bible says. That's why you pay taxes. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities. When the government takes a different role, in a Democracy, we should be the ones that represent and speak up. Now, ⁓ what Bex is saying, I want to apologize to every single person who's been offended by my politically incorrect wife. I want to personally apologize and ask you to get past the offense, read the Bible, hear the wisdom of God in here. It's very inconvenient. It does not roll with the way that the world works these days and expects the church to be one thing, individuals to be another thing, and governments to do a different thing. If we can understand it, the way that God set the world up is actually going to work. And if we can trust him, if we can do away with the world's notions, if we can do away with the world's perception of what the church should do, what Christians should do and what the government should do. And we are the ones that clearly call on what the word of God says for the individual, the church and the government and the family to do, then we could see a nation blessed. The Bible says righteousness exalts a nation. And I want my nation to be brilliant. Like as Beck said, not just for me, but for my grandchildren. Jack: Yeah, it's it's that tension, right, of like we should be generous and we should should seek to, you know, help those who have been on the receiving end of injustice and yet call our government to account. ⁓ you know, ⁓ this is very intellectual, although feel welcome to to speak personally if you want to, but on an int on an intellectual level, it's like we should be able to ⁓ forgive those who do wrong to us and expect prison Or potentially even capital punishment, and both of those can be true at the same time. ⁓ it it would be very tricky for someone to be in government. You know, I do not envy those who who need to I I honour those who need to make those decisions publicly. But as Christians, it's it is okay for us to forgive and expect justice to be served. Both of those things are true. Bex: Yeah. Thank Yeah, absolutely. We've got to understand God is a God of love and wrath. Right? We go, ⁓ Jesus just loves everyone. But the Bible says Jesus is coming back as the judge. He will come and he will judge. That those things are not intention. In fact, here's something. Okay, this is going to be so controversial. ⁓ But let's talk capital punishment for a second, right? Now, I hate the idea of capital punishment. have my entire life. Dave Connett: Yeah. Come on, do it. I want you to. Well she's going in yet. Are you ready? Jack: Look, I I left it open, but but you can choose it if you want. Dave Connett: If you Bex: I'm going go there because this has been something that this has been an area where I've wrestled, excuse me, and actually changed my mind because, you know, I think I grew up in New Zealand. You guys grew up in Australia. We're very against capital punishment in these countries, right? And that's how I've grown up my whole life. And I really wrestle with why does God, why is God okay with capital punishment? I mean, he is in the Bible. He is. can't, you can't escape that. Jack: Yep. Great. Let's do it. Bex: And I actually realized it's actually a sign of how much he loves and values human beings. That there are some sins that are so grave, that are so horrific, that you lose the right to live. And what is that sin that means you lose the right to live? It's taking the life of another person. And I think in the removal of capital punishment, Dave Connett: Come on. Jack: Yes. Dave Connett: Yeah. Bex: has actually devalued humanity. Because what we're saying is, hey, the life of that murderer is actually worth more than the innocent life that that murderer took, right? And I think we are, I mean, you can even go to abortion with this. People go, ⁓ we should have abortion in case of rape. And you go, well, hang on a second. So you're going to take the life of the innocent party because of the sin of another person. It's insane. And so I think God is saying, hey, take it seriously. This is how highly I value human life that if you take human life, you have forfeited your light, your right to life. And I just wonder if we had that, if that would shift the blaziness and the lack of value of humanity. There you go. Controversial. Dave Connett: Yeah, Jack, let me let me throw in here. That concept of the the of not actually ⁓ outworking the wrath or the punishment or the consequences of sin has lingered and is bled across into the way that people do parenting. Jack: Yeah. Dave Connett: there is a parent, there is a gap in parenting where parents don't actually teach their kids the boundaries of how to do life with the use of consequence and reward. There's got to be consequences for it. And if you don't actually parent your children through the stages to learn key values, key rules, safety, obedience, if you don't do that. What you're gonna that gentle parenting is a very quick way to have a delinquent teenager who is off the rails. The ruler's job is to bring clarity, justice, and actually make sure that the whole society, same in a family, that whole society is safe and healthy. It's really politically incorrect. And it's very difficult if you think that you want everyone to all love each other and you want everyone to be your friend. But love. Bex: I think there's a. Dave Connett: ⁓ i love will walk this thing through and help train and effectively lead people through to righteousness. Jack: Yeah. And you know, I think ⁓ I sorry, Bex, I I appreciate both of you saying, ⁓ this might be controversial or it might be politically correct. And I I realize that sometimes we do need to put in those ⁓ four warnings. But w but for those listening, we don't we as good life, we don't and personally, we don't say these things because we want to be controversial or we want to be politically incorrect. We say it because it's the truth. And it's the truth that will set you free. And unf the unfortunate Bex: No. Okay. Jack: ⁓ reality is that the truth is politically incorrect at the moment and the truth is controversial. Whether it was controversial or not, it is still truth. But maybe my two cents, Beck, before you jump in, is that ⁓ love must have consequences. God is a God of consequence, right? The our God chose to give us free will, and therefore we have choice, and choice has consequence, and that is an expression of God's love. If there were no consequence, then it wouldn't be loving. Bex: Hmm. . Jack: It would be simply you know, his ⁓ ultimate sovereignty playing out. And, you know, these these somewhat trivial ideas of justice ⁓ and consequence in the legal system have ramifications theologically and eternally. If you don't believe that God is a god of consequence, you'll struggle with the notion of sin and the notion of eternity and the notion of hell. And you know, it's a slippery, slippery slope to some of these doctrines that end up in strange universalism and like everyone can be saved and you know, these thing the these doctrines and theologies have consequence because God is a God of consequence, which is an expression of his love, which comes from him as a just and holy God, and he's primarily holy. Bex: Yeah, well said. I think we're really in danger of you know, what we've mentioned before, but what C.S. Lewis calls chronological snobbery, where we think we know everything better than every other Christian generation before us. And previous generations have not had an issue with the wrath of God and with the idea of justice and consequences. ⁓ But it's today's generation with our, you know, what Ali Bestaki calls toxic empathy or Gadsad calls, you know, suicidal empathy, ⁓ where Dave Connett: ⁓ wow. Refective. Bex: There's no judgment. It's all, how do you feel and why did you do this? And, okay, I'm going to be really controversial here, but there's this case in America with Lindsay Clancy who strangled her three children to death. And suddenly there's all these women saying, I stand with Lindsay. yes, let's not discount, maybe she was going through horrific mental health challenges and, you know, was given all these crazy medications and da da da. Jack: Yes, she did. Bex: But that doesn't actually mean it's okay to kill your children. And I saw one health professional get online and say, I don't know what else you could have done, Lindsay. And I'm like, I'm sorry, how about not kill your children? And suddenly this is huge. Dave Connett: into a facility and not kill your children. There's got to be love for the individual that's struggling and to go, what could we do to actually serve that person? But when it comes to the fact that person killed other people, that is there's no excuse. There is zero excuse for that. And we've got to keep that you've got to hold the tension of the justice and the love. The service and the Consequence. We've got to serve the people as best we can, but there is gotta be consequence or there is no justice and we have anarchy, and that's a terrible place to live. Bex: Yeah, and straight away again, we're now going, ⁓ well, this life is worth more than this life, right? Those three lives have equal value with her life. And so she's taken those three lives. And yes, you can relate to maybe the battle she was having, but none of that makes it okay and justice must still be served. And I think again, that there's a, there's so many angles to this though, but On the one hand, we've denigrated masculinity, we've denigrated strength, we've silenced our men, and then there's this toxic feminism that rises up and everything's out of order now. We have an Ahab Jezebel situation going on, and I'm not talking about those particular people, I'm talking about in our culture, where we have powerless men and these women that are, their empathy is disordered, their natural nurturing is disordered, and so it's going to the wrong people. And so that then comes back to this whole idea of justice and ⁓ the legal system. And what people are now trying to do is, ⁓ we put someone in prison to rehabilitate them. No, we don't. They are in prison for punishment. And if a secondary thing we can do is rehabilitate, well, that's fantastic. But no, they are there as the consequence, as the punishment for their actions. That is the primary thing. And we are getting Dave Connett: Yes. Bex: Our super empathetic society has got everything out of order. Where innocent lives are the ones now being taken and all our empathy is for the ⁓ person who's done the wrongdoing. And we actually again, please I beg you, use your mind and understand we've got to have these things in the right order and we can't get our morality from Instagram. Dave Connett: I can't wait. ⁓ Jack, we're gonna have to wrap up things soon, but I cannot wait. Bex: We cannot get Amorelli from TikTok. We must get it from the word of God, even when it's uncomfortable, because God knows what he's doing and we don't. And so actually got to get these things in the right order. Anyway, I'm ranting, so there you go. Dave Connett: ⁓ for the series that we are covering soon where actually Beck's is going to tackle ⁓ four different topics of competing kingdoms how the world ⁓ sees ⁓ truth ⁓ how the secular society ⁓ how how we deal with Islam Judaism how we deal with progressive Christianity that ⁓ that actually values progressive Christianity values your empathy your love your emotions more Bex: Yeah. Dave Connett: than picking up the word of God and letting it do the talking. And so we're gonna be tackling these things really soon. And if ⁓ it'll be a little bit ⁓ politically incorrect. So yeah, buckle up on that one. Jack: Okay. Sounds good. I and you know, I will say that there'll probably some folks who go like, ⁓ I don't know about politically incorrect. Again, it it's not that we're intentionally chasing political incorrectness, we're chasing the scriptures and and and the objective Dave Connett: Come on. We we certainly Jack, we we we are wanting to because people are swimming and breathing in a world that thinks the opposite. And our job is to actually it's not just that the truth sets you free, Jack, it's that you know the truth. And so we've got to breathe in the scriptures and our God. And so we we have the duty by God to actually teach these things and to be clear, lest Christians not think. Bex: Yeah. Dave Connett: live and act and raise their kids Christian because we value the way of the world. And that is what's happening, Jack. People are taking on the the the the the functions and the ethos of the world and telling the Bible how to think. Help telling the scriptures they must bow to that. Telling God when God actually created the world and he knows best. And so we are actually contending for ⁓ Bex: Well. Thank Dave Connett: Good life is to understand the word of God because when you know the truth, the truth sets you free. And so it's politically incorrect, but why are we tackling it? Because we want the best for our people and we think followers of Christ, therefore fishing for men, is the answer to absolutely everything. Not aiming to be politically incorrect, not aiming to be controversial, but we're gonna tackle where the world is imposing into the church and morality. Jack: Yes. Bex: . Okay. Jack: Love it. Thank you. Thank you for doing so. I know plenty of good lifers are grateful and whether it ⁓ whether they enjoy it or not, we know it is meat for our soul. So ⁓ there we go. Hey, let's end that episode here. Thank you for joining us, Pastor Dave, Pastor Vex and Good Lifers. We'll see you on another episode. Bex: Yeah. Dave Connett: Love it.