Latest / Stuff Mom Never Told You / SMNTY Interviews: Caitlin Blunnie

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SMNTY Interviews: Caitlin Blunnie · Stuff Mom Never Told You

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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha. I walcome to stuff
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Speaker 1: I've never told your prediction.
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Speaker 2: iHeart radio.
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Speaker 3: We're so excited about this conversation. But before we start,
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Speaker 3: we do want to add content warnings about the fact
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Speaker 3: that we are going to talk about eating disorders, sexual
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Speaker 3: assault and abuse as well as just really bad things
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Speaker 3: happening in the world as we know, and trauma childhood,
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Speaker 3: trauma and abuse as well. So let's see it into
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Speaker 3: it and y'all today we are so excited because not
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Speaker 3: only am are we talking to one of our featured
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Speaker 3: activists around the world, Hello, but someone that I have
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Speaker 3: been following for a while now who has been a
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Speaker 3: big fan of their art and all the things that
0:55
Speaker 3: they do. All the things that they do.
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Speaker 4: Caitlin Lenny, thank you so much for being on the show.
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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm thrilled to
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Speaker 2: be here.
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Speaker 3: Okay, before we get into this, cause we're going to
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Speaker 3: talk a lot about your background, Can you introduce yourself
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Speaker 3: to our listeners.
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Speaker 2: My name is Caitlin Flenny. I go by Liberal Gain online.
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Speaker 2: I'm an artist and activist. Most of my work centers
1:19
Speaker 2: around the framework of everyone deserves the right to bodily autonomy,
1:23
Speaker 2: and I've been creating illustrations for the last eight nine years.
1:28
Speaker 4: At this point, does it feel weird when you start
1:30
Speaker 4: thinking about how long you've been doing this?
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Speaker 5: Like it feels short? But at the same time, Phil Forever.
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Speaker 2: It's wild because I went to college for new media,
1:38
Speaker 2: which was kind of like digital art type stuff. My
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Speaker 2: username is a nickname that I had reclaimed from my family,
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Speaker 2: and so I created that account like in twenty sixteen,
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Speaker 2: and it was my personal account for like two three years.
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Speaker 2: Like I was just posting for the sake of posting,
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Speaker 2: and I really didn't expect it to become what it
2:01
Speaker 2: is now.
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Speaker 5: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, we're going to get into that in a minute.
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Speaker 3: There's so many layers in how your story unfolds and
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Speaker 3: just how you got to this point in both your career,
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Speaker 3: your activism, your advocacy work. There's so much in this conversation.
2:17
Speaker 3: Again when it comes to your amazing work. I've been
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Speaker 3: a big fan. But before we start, you kind of
2:23
Speaker 3: did already tap into it. Can you tell us how
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Speaker 3: you entered into the art world.
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Speaker 2: Yes, that's a great question. I think, like a lot
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Speaker 2: of artists, I always had like a creative tendency when
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Speaker 2: I was younger, but I grew up very low income,
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Speaker 2: and you know, basic things like food, electricity, even cable
2:46
Speaker 2: like weren't always available, and so I think having that experience,
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Speaker 2: I was like, I can't do art. That's for people
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Speaker 2: who don't have to worry about money, and that's not
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Speaker 2: my circumstance. I started working when I was thirteen fourteen,
3:01
Speaker 2: doing babysitting, and then as soon as I could work
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Speaker 2: like a job, job, I did, and I was contributing
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Speaker 2: towards the household. So I loved art and I would
3:11
Speaker 2: do it in secret in my room. I remember I
3:14
Speaker 2: saved up a bunch of money to get a used computer.
3:17
Speaker 2: I got like a little gateway computer, and I would
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Speaker 2: sit there with the mouse and on Microsoft Paint would
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Speaker 2: draw and post online. And no one, of course, knew
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Speaker 2: about this in my real life. I think eventually I
3:29
Speaker 2: told my little siblings and they were like, that's so cool.
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Speaker 2: But I didn't take art seriously. And then my senior
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Speaker 2: year of high school, I was like, okay, I'll take
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Speaker 2: an art class, and even that I was like, I
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Speaker 2: don't know, like this is too traditional in the sense
3:44
Speaker 2: I its like drawing and pastels, and that's not really
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Speaker 2: up my alley. And so I went to college. I
3:51
Speaker 2: had no idea what I wanted to do. I thought
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Speaker 2: I was going to be a literature major. Thought was
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Speaker 2: going to read books and be one of those people.
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Speaker 2: And I ended up getting involved in like I say,
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Speaker 2: digital art. It's like web design, photography, videography. But the
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Speaker 2: whole focus of my program that I went to was
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Speaker 2: the idea of teaching yourself. And so while illustration wasn't
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Speaker 2: a part of my formal education, it was something that like,
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Speaker 2: by my sophomore junior year, I was creating mostly gifts.
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Speaker 2: They were like these little I call them jitter gifts,
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Speaker 2: where it's like you just draw three or four frames
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Speaker 2: and then you put it through a gift maker and
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Speaker 2: it just gives that like a little bit of motion.
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Speaker 2: And I did that for two three years, and then
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Speaker 2: when I graduated, I was like, I really want to
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Speaker 2: do activism. I really want to do art. I don't
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Speaker 2: how do those two things go together? And so I
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Speaker 2: started off like most people, in a nonprofit job and
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Speaker 2: just doing advocacy work. And it was at that job
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Speaker 2: actually that I started feeling very frish, fustrated with the
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Speaker 2: work that I was doing is very frustrated with how
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Speaker 2: things were handled at the nonprofit I worked at, and
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Speaker 2: so I started, Uh, I would go home from work
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Speaker 2: and I would just draw because I was just angry.
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Speaker 4: And it really I love that you're laughing about that,
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Speaker 4: because I know what. I can picture you doing this,
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Speaker 4: like you're.
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Speaker 3: Like, oh, I'm mad, I'm gonna show you something, and
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Speaker 3: then like as you're drawing, you're putting all your frustrations
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Speaker 3: and that release of just like being a private story
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Speaker 3: though in your own like moment to now like wow,
5:30
Speaker 3: but that's such Like I love that just thinking about
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Speaker 3: you coming home steing and you're like eating a bull
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Speaker 3: of cereal or something and just like going at it
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Speaker 3: on your art.
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Speaker 6: It's so good.
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Speaker 3: So you started and you went into that. How did
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Speaker 3: that unfold into today?
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Speaker 2: Yeah? Well I worked that job I really didn't like
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Speaker 2: for about seven eight months and then I became an
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Speaker 2: organizer for an organization called Reproaction and I started as
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Speaker 2: the Virginia organizer and I was just doing mostly organizing
6:01
Speaker 2: around abortion access. I would organize we called them positive
6:05
Speaker 2: presences outside the abortion clinic that was local to us,
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Speaker 2: and organizing direct actions a lot of frontline activism work,
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Speaker 2: and I really loved that. I was involved in planned
6:17
Speaker 2: parenthood in college and so like was very much into
6:21
Speaker 2: the direct action side of it. And thankfully with that
6:25
Speaker 2: job it was work from home, so I had more
6:27
Speaker 2: time to do drawings and art on the side. But
6:31
Speaker 2: those two things really didn't come together for another three
6:35
Speaker 2: or four years, Like it was just something I did
6:38
Speaker 2: on the side. And then eventually, at that job, eventually
6:42
Speaker 2: art became a part of my role at work, and
6:45
Speaker 2: I did that for several years. And reproductive rights, abortion
6:50
Speaker 2: rights are rapelest in my heart. And I think, you know,
6:53
Speaker 2: having started as an activist during the Obama era in
6:57
Speaker 2: New York, I entered it thinking this is so bad,
7:01
Speaker 2: this is horrible, this is it can't get worse than this.
7:04
Speaker 2: And then of course, you know, now I'm like, I'm
7:07
Speaker 2: miss Obama, please come back. But like I just entered it,
7:13
Speaker 2: like I didn't realize that, I guess, and I hate
7:16
Speaker 2: saying this. I didn't realize how good it was at
7:17
Speaker 2: the time and where we would end up ten years later.
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Speaker 5: Look, we are also in that state of.
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Speaker 3: Like, even though we know on our end, no political person,
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Speaker 3: no person in politics is perfect, and they all have
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Speaker 3: to be accountable.
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Speaker 5: There's just some level of like, but it wasn't this bad.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I think, you know, I think there
7:41
Speaker 2: were a lot of experiences like I remember the Kavanaugh
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Speaker 2: confirmation hearings standing outside the Senate building and conservative reporters
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Speaker 2: coming up to any woman they could find and just saying,
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Speaker 2: were you raped? Were you sexually assaulted? Is that why
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Speaker 2: you're here? And just over like the last four years,
8:01
Speaker 2: especially like twenty sixteen through twenty twenty one, it just
8:05
Speaker 2: was ramping up to the point where like it was
8:09
Speaker 2: becoming more and more unsafe. And I think, like I said,
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Speaker 2: I started during the Obama years. By the time Roe
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Speaker 2: fell in what was it, twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two,
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Speaker 2: I just like I had a mental breakdown, honestly, I
8:25
Speaker 2: think because I had been marching and beating the drum
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Speaker 2: of Roe's gonna fall, Roe's gonna fall, and for years
8:31
Speaker 2: people telling me I was crazy, people telling me that's
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Speaker 2: not gonna happen. And then it happened. And yes there
8:37
Speaker 2: were protests, yes there was outrage, But here we are
8:40
Speaker 2: years later, and half the country doesn't have access to repredicative.
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Speaker 3: Rights, right and women are dying, and people with unses
8:47
Speaker 3: are dying on the daily, and we're not talking about
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Speaker 3: it enough.
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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, you could do some heavy work.
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Speaker 3: And I fill that heaviness with especially in talking about
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Speaker 3: like we knew when things were talking like you're not listening.
9:01
Speaker 3: We're crying and mourning for the loss of our freedom,
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Speaker 3: and why you think we're being dramatic as we are
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Speaker 3: being counted to literally die at another person's whims is
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Speaker 3: really infuriating.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think, you know, the decision coming down
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Speaker 2: broke my heart. I think what really led to me
9:23
Speaker 2: having a breakdown and eventually having to resign from that
9:25
Speaker 2: role was very shortly after Roe felt, I had a
9:29
Speaker 2: training with a group of people in Texas and they
9:32
Speaker 2: were super excited to, you know, figure out how to
9:36
Speaker 2: get people to access care in their state and having
9:39
Speaker 2: to sit there and say, well, actually, your state hasn't
9:43
Speaker 2: had access since the year before with SB two. Second
9:47
Speaker 2: of all, I don't even know if this conversation is legal.
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Speaker 2: I don't know if there's repercussions for this. No one knows,
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Speaker 2: you know, and it's such a gray area and it's
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Speaker 2: so much in my workhouse to do a stick uh,
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Speaker 2: I think and like making you know, the the implicit explicit,
10:07
Speaker 2: and it just I think it was one of those romans.
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Speaker 2: I was just so intimidated and I was so overwhelmed
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Speaker 2: and sad, and you know, I think burnout played a
10:17
Speaker 2: large role in that. You know, when you're in the
10:19
Speaker 2: fight for so long and you just right feel beat up,
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Speaker 2: it's exhausting.
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Speaker 3: It's exhausting when you're in the center of chaos in
10:29
Speaker 3: a twenty four hour state and it feels like you're losing,
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Speaker 3: and that it's not only are you losing, but you're
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Speaker 3: losing more support and rational thinking. That's all the different
10:41
Speaker 3: conversation in itself, But this does bring me back into
10:44
Speaker 3: something that I find so.
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Speaker 5: Heartwarming.
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Speaker 3: I guess it's the best way because a little bit
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Speaker 3: about you've already mentioned about your name Liberal Jane as
10:54
Speaker 3: you first kind of came out in your activism in
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Speaker 3: your art, that how you came about that name. And
11:02
Speaker 3: we have talked on here a lot about like having
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Speaker 3: conservative families and growing out of that and what that
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Speaker 3: looks like again, and you doing that and not only
11:11
Speaker 3: doing that, but becoming well known and famous for your
11:14
Speaker 3: work with that felt vindicating. I felt like I was
11:18
Speaker 3: living through you, scariously through you, and being able to
11:21
Speaker 3: be like yeah, sticking it to my family, my conservative family,
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Speaker 3: who really didn't know that I could do all this
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Speaker 3: uh and use what they thought was an insult to
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Speaker 3: me to better publicize the work that I am doing.
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Speaker 3: Which so I loved every bit of this, but again
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Speaker 3: I'm giving it away too much. So I need you
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Speaker 3: to tell our listeners about how this, how your name
11:46
Speaker 3: came about.
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Speaker 2: Absolutely so. I grew up, like I said, very conservative
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Speaker 2: and not just like conservative, like we care about money
11:54
Speaker 2: like conservative, hateful conservative, and I genuinely believed in those
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Speaker 2: things full hearted until I went to college and then
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Speaker 2: it was like there was just a moment of like, oh,
12:07
Speaker 2: I think at the time, I had lost like fifty
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Speaker 2: sixty pounds. I had a terrible eating disorder.
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Speaker 3: And.
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Speaker 2: I saw and I think a lot of people who
12:19
Speaker 2: have lost weight, dained weight even have experienced this where
12:23
Speaker 2: the world treats you differently, and suddenly I was an
12:27
Speaker 2: attractive woman and like the way I was treated and
12:30
Speaker 2: the way men spoke to me like shifted. And I
12:33
Speaker 2: think having that experience really ignited the feminist blame in me.
12:37
Speaker 2: I became very involved in the feminist club at my college,
12:40
Speaker 2: which was called FORCE. It was like feminists Organizing for
12:45
Speaker 2: Real Change Everywhere or something like that.
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Speaker 3: It's amazing. I love like feminist organizations. I mean, you like,
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Speaker 3: liberal organizations have to be an acronym.
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Speaker 6: You have an acronym.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah. And so because I had grown up
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Speaker 2: debating my dad, and like, you know, up until this point,
13:04
Speaker 2: we're on the same page. We're still debating, but it's
13:07
Speaker 2: starting to devolve in a different way. And so my
13:11
Speaker 2: dad would always have these names like Joe Schmo or
13:15
Speaker 2: trying to think of other ones, but liberal Jane became mine.
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Speaker 2: And so when we would be having an argument and
13:23
Speaker 2: he I guess maybe didn't have a rebuttal or whatever,
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Speaker 2: he'd say, Okay, liberal Jane, and that was like a
13:28
Speaker 2: dismissive way to tell me to stop. And so I
13:31
Speaker 2: had that name for two three years. And you know,
13:35
Speaker 2: I graduated in twenty sixteen, and so this rhetoric around
13:38
Speaker 2: like college kids go to school and they become radicalized,
13:43
Speaker 2: like that was very much the position of my dad. Yeah,
13:47
Speaker 2: but I, like I said, when I graduated, I really
13:50
Speaker 2: wanted to figure out how to combine the art and activism,
13:53
Speaker 2: and that just felt like a fitting name because you know,
13:57
Speaker 2: Jane Jane Doe is like, you know, just any woman.
14:01
Speaker 2: And then of course we have the gene collective gene
14:04
Speaker 2: as a as a name holds so much weight already.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, which is probably why he used it as this
14:10
Speaker 3: because we do see that I think there's a lot
14:24
Speaker 3: to be said about again, education and we know the
14:28
Speaker 3: conservative far right are really anti education and making sure
14:32
Speaker 3: to not do too much. I mean, as in fact,
14:34
Speaker 3: my family have talked about if we go from so
14:36
Speaker 3: I lived in an Appalachian town and then moving to Atlanta,
14:40
Speaker 3: which is where we're based, which is, you know, a
14:43
Speaker 3: pretty big hub and a pretty big city. They were like, oh,
14:45
Speaker 3: she's gonna she's gonna get radicalized. And it's not because
14:48
Speaker 3: of like education necessarily, but because of the sins of
14:52
Speaker 3: the city type of thing, Yeah, which I find fascinating
14:55
Speaker 3: in itself, but like leaving that type of family where
15:00
Speaker 3: you truly did hang on every words, because that type
15:04
Speaker 3: of family often least with the men or the head
15:06
Speaker 3: of the families, you follow suit with the families. As
15:09
Speaker 3: in fact, like they're talking about again repelling Nineteenth Amendment
15:13
Speaker 3: and saying that they just need a household vote, implying
15:15
Speaker 3: again that same structure of Melie in the family. And
15:20
Speaker 3: I recently listened to your podcast about trauma and about
15:25
Speaker 3: kind of leaving that behind, and for me, it felt
15:28
Speaker 3: like a legitimate breakup with the church. Mine was specifically
15:31
Speaker 3: with the church and growing up in the church like that,
15:34
Speaker 3: being told I need.
15:34
Speaker 5: To be grateful for you.
15:37
Speaker 3: What did it feel like when you started to break
15:39
Speaker 3: away and how did you cope with the trauma of
15:42
Speaker 3: breaking away.
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Speaker 5: From such a dark time.
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Speaker 3: I know that sounds weird, but like when it comes
15:48
Speaker 3: to finding your own thought process understanding, Oh, this is
15:52
Speaker 3: not what I thought it was.
15:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think it was my decision to
15:59
Speaker 2: sort of contact with my dad. I do have a
16:01
Speaker 2: relationship with my mom and siblings. But what ended up
16:05
Speaker 2: happening was because I'm so I guess open online, I
16:10
Speaker 2: ended up getting outed to my family and it did
16:13
Speaker 2: not go over well. And that was the last time
16:17
Speaker 2: I spoke to my dad. That was over five years ago.
16:21
Speaker 2: Because I was called a liar. I was told that
16:23
Speaker 2: I was hiding who I was and that they didn't
16:26
Speaker 2: believe anything about me anymore, because how could I lie
16:28
Speaker 2: about such a important part of my life, despite the
16:33
Speaker 2: fact that I had grown up being told almost on
16:37
Speaker 2: a daily basis that if you're gay, we will beat
16:40
Speaker 2: the gay out of you. And that was anytime my
16:43
Speaker 2: brother did anything slightly f mean, we picked up a
16:46
Speaker 2: barbie forget about it, like you know, never mind that
16:49
Speaker 2: I was the one that he was playing with and
16:51
Speaker 2: I was a girl. And so honestly, I will say that, like,
16:57
Speaker 2: between twenty twenty and twenty twenty four was a pretty
16:59
Speaker 2: dark period for me. I lost contact with my family.
17:04
Speaker 2: I of course, the pandemic was happening politics, I had
17:07
Speaker 2: to resign from my job, and I ended up leaving
17:11
Speaker 2: a long term relationship in June of twenty twenty four.
17:15
Speaker 2: That was almost eleven year relationship and it's hard to
17:21
Speaker 2: not feel very lost after that. And I will say
17:24
Speaker 2: I've definitely had depression and mental health struggles, but I
17:28
Speaker 2: am so grateful that I had the ability to leave
17:32
Speaker 2: situations that weren't serving me. And I think I have
17:36
Speaker 2: to give myself a lot of grace because of the
17:38
Speaker 2: way I grew up. That in particular, if you grow
17:41
Speaker 2: up around abuse, you likely find yourself in a similar
17:45
Speaker 2: situation and you could be trying as hard as you
17:48
Speaker 2: can to avoid it. Like my ex when I met him,
17:52
Speaker 2: he was the one person that would argue with my
17:54
Speaker 2: dad and he was very liberal, and so I was like, wow,
17:58
Speaker 2: look somebody who can stand up to my dad the
17:59
Speaker 2: way I can, not realizing that there were a lot
18:02
Speaker 2: of similar qualities and that comfort, that familiarity doesn't mean safety,
18:08
Speaker 2: and that is such a hard thing to unlearn.
18:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, one thing that Samantha and I talk about a
18:15
Speaker 1: lot on this show is it's kind of strange to
18:21
Speaker 1: be very open and very personal about things that maybe
18:26
Speaker 1: you haven't spoken to your family about, Like who else
18:29
Speaker 1: are you involving and telling this story? And my mom
18:34
Speaker 1: found out I was gay through a book we wrote.
18:38
Speaker 1: I had never told her. She found out a lot
18:41
Speaker 1: of things about me in that book. I wish she
18:43
Speaker 1: had not read it. She's such a supportive mom, but
18:47
Speaker 1: I was like, why did you read that? But I
18:51
Speaker 1: was very lucky in that my family was pretty they
18:54
Speaker 1: were liberal, but I still grew up very afraid of
18:58
Speaker 1: being gay. I'm pretty sure at the seventh grade I
19:02
Speaker 1: was like, I think I might be and I would
19:04
Speaker 1: pray about it. I would be like, I hope this
19:07
Speaker 1: isn't true, because I knew, even at a young age,
19:12
Speaker 1: I knew what that would mean, and it was not
19:15
Speaker 1: good for me societally. And it's interesting to me that
19:19
Speaker 1: interesting and upsetting that even today I kind of have
19:23
Speaker 1: my liberal bubble of friends, so I forget it sometimes,
19:25
Speaker 1: but then I'll be like confronted with the reality in
19:29
Speaker 1: our politics or in my very conservative side of the
19:31
Speaker 1: family that no, this is still coming out is still dangerous,
19:37
Speaker 1: and it's still political, and it's still really scary. Not
19:41
Speaker 1: everybody has like a support group or someone to stand
19:46
Speaker 1: up for them or protect them, and it just becomes
19:48
Speaker 1: this whole confrontation about who you are when you're just
19:54
Speaker 1: trying to be live your life and be a person.
19:58
Speaker 1: And I know you've been very very open about your
20:02
Speaker 1: experience and very vulnerable about it online in these public spaces.
20:08
Speaker 1: So how has that been for you? And do you
20:11
Speaker 1: have any advice for people, young people perhaps, or anybody
20:16
Speaker 1: that just is still feeling isolated or scared about this.
20:22
Speaker 2: It's a great question, and I'm definitely not an expert
20:26
Speaker 2: by any means, but you know, I think just reminding
20:31
Speaker 2: yourself that life is too short, and I think especially
20:36
Speaker 2: you get to a point where it's like, I mean
20:38
Speaker 2: I was married and everything on the surface looked good.
20:42
Speaker 2: You know, I had a business, we worked together, we
20:44
Speaker 2: were happy. We had this relationship, and no one knows
20:49
Speaker 2: what's happening in your life better than you do. You know,
20:51
Speaker 2: people can give you advice, people can say, oh, you
20:53
Speaker 2: should stay, you should do whatever. And I certainly have
20:56
Speaker 2: heard a lot of ice over the last year, good
20:58
Speaker 2: and bad. But at the end end of the day,
21:02
Speaker 2: what your gut is telling you, you have to listen.
21:05
Speaker 2: And of course our guts sometimes, you know, we have
21:08
Speaker 2: to be aware of racism, implicit bias, like all of
21:11
Speaker 2: these things. Yes, but in my relationship, I was chronically sick,
21:16
Speaker 2: chronically had headaches, chronically had stomach pain. When I left,
21:22
Speaker 2: I went from having migraines at least two three times
21:24
Speaker 2: a week two I've had maybe one in the last year.
21:29
Speaker 2: And you know, your body is trying to speak to you.
21:33
Speaker 2: I think for a long time, emotions would come up,
21:35
Speaker 2: and because I was sort of labeled as like this
21:37
Speaker 2: anxious attachment, it was like, oh, my emotions are wrong,
21:42
Speaker 2: like and I I really tune them out. You know.
21:46
Speaker 2: It was like we got to have a good day today,
21:48
Speaker 2: like let's just put on happy faces and let's let's
21:51
Speaker 2: do it. And what happened was I stopped knowing myself.
21:56
Speaker 2: I stopped trusting myself. And when you get to that point,
22:00
Speaker 2: it's you feel really lost and it is very hard
22:06
Speaker 2: to get out of that. I'm so grateful that I
22:08
Speaker 2: had the space to get out of that. But I
22:12
Speaker 2: think you know, if anyone listening is feeling vulnerable, and
22:18
Speaker 2: perhaps there are people in your life that don't understand
22:21
Speaker 2: or aren't giving the advice, it's not because they don't
22:24
Speaker 2: love or care about you. The experience that survivors have,
22:28
Speaker 2: the emotions, the mental toll it takes on you, it's
22:33
Speaker 2: really only something that other survivors understand. I mean I
22:36
Speaker 2: feel it on a daily basis when I talk about
22:38
Speaker 2: my life openly. I'll be in an uber or something
22:41
Speaker 2: and then they'll say, oh, you married or do you
22:42
Speaker 2: have children, And I'll very openly say I'm divorced. You know,
22:47
Speaker 2: I'm living here. I lived the last seven eight years
22:51
Speaker 2: in the DC area. I'm now up in Baltimore. I'm
22:54
Speaker 2: here because I'm divorced. I'm starting over, and it's very
22:57
Speaker 2: interesting getting people's reactions people will start with I'm so sorry,
23:02
Speaker 2: that's terrible, and it's like, I don't feel like that.
23:05
Speaker 2: I am so grateful I got out. I'm so grateful
23:08
Speaker 2: that I'm I'm thirty one and I still have, you know,
23:12
Speaker 2: my whole life ahead of me. That's one chapter in
23:14
Speaker 2: my life. And you know, I think I have to
23:19
Speaker 2: remind myself on a daily basis, And one of my
23:21
Speaker 2: affirmations I tell myself is I am making progress every day,
23:24
Speaker 2: even if I don't see it. And so, you know,
23:28
Speaker 2: obviously it's easier some than done leaving a bad situation,
23:32
Speaker 2: but don't be afraid to be open and honest with
23:36
Speaker 2: people in your life. It's so hard, and if you
23:38
Speaker 2: can't get support from people in your life, there are
23:42
Speaker 2: advocates that can help. And I know it's so it's
23:46
Speaker 2: so stigmatizing. Like I was given the domestic violence hotline
23:49
Speaker 2: before I left my relationship and I was like, no,
23:52
Speaker 2: that's not me. No, I've never been hit, Like, no,
23:55
Speaker 2: that's not it, and I would really I think there's
24:00
Speaker 2: stigma around being labeled a victim or survivor whatever language
24:05
Speaker 2: people want to use. But at the end of the day,
24:10
Speaker 2: it's not cowardly to ask for help. It's something I
24:12
Speaker 2: should have done, honestly.
24:17
Speaker 7: Yeah, No, that's there's so much to what you just said,
24:23
Speaker 7: and you've left so much experiences already in coming to
24:28
Speaker 7: this point and understanding that you needed to be out
24:30
Speaker 7: and that you are worth more than what even was.
24:34
Speaker 3: You thought what you thought wasn't upgrade at that time
24:37
Speaker 3: because you know it was better than the previous and
24:39
Speaker 3: then you will understand, oh, I don't need to just
24:41
Speaker 3: be better, I need the best. I want to be
24:43
Speaker 3: in the best and whatever that looks like for me
24:46
Speaker 3: and getting to that place is a huge victory. So
24:49
Speaker 3: kudos and congratulations and valuing yourself and loving yourself and
24:56
Speaker 3: those around you to be able to see that not
24:59
Speaker 3: only is it worth the pain and what MENI would
25:04
Speaker 3: say would be as you had said, like you felt
25:06
Speaker 3: like people would imply as a failure. Whether it's the
25:09
Speaker 3: uber driver being like, oh I'm so sorry, or any
25:11
Speaker 3: of those things. It's so huge just to see that
25:15
Speaker 3: you were able to do it like that in itself
25:18
Speaker 3: is a testament to your strength and the strength of
25:20
Speaker 3: perseverence alone.
25:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. I think something my grandfather told me
25:27
Speaker 2: that like has always stuck with me is like everyone
25:30
Speaker 2: in their life falls on the rests, like at some point,
25:33
Speaker 2: like something's going to happen where you just feel like
25:35
Speaker 2: you're spinning out and you feel like lost, But it
25:40
Speaker 2: happens to all of us, and like we need to
25:43
Speaker 2: lean on each other, even if it's uncomfortable, even if
25:45
Speaker 2: it's embarrassing or you know. I think the financial side
25:50
Speaker 2: for me is really where a lot of my embarrassment
25:52
Speaker 2: is because I left my relationship without all the finances
25:57
Speaker 2: have been in my ex's name, and so I left
26:00
Speaker 2: with that money and like a lot of debt, a
26:03
Speaker 2: lot of stress. I don't regret any of that, right,
26:06
Speaker 2: but it's also such a privilege to be able to survive.
26:11
Speaker 2: But seeing those first couple of months where I was
26:13
Speaker 2: like eating one meal a day because it was like
26:15
Speaker 2: I can't afford to eat right now. My car last
26:18
Speaker 2: year broke down, it was like, Okay, I guess I'm
26:20
Speaker 2: a pedestrian. And it's just been like a lot of
26:24
Speaker 2: just taking things with grace. There have been so many
26:26
Speaker 2: times where I've just been like I just wish there
26:28
Speaker 2: was some place I could crash out. I wish there
26:30
Speaker 2: was a place I could not pay rent for a
26:32
Speaker 2: month and I'm just sleep on someone's couch. I just
26:35
Speaker 2: wish that that place existed and it doesn't for me,
26:38
Speaker 2: and that that's hard. But if you are in a
26:42
Speaker 2: position where you have that in your life, definitely lean
26:45
Speaker 2: on those resources.
26:47
Speaker 3: Again, there's so much in your conversation that alone, because
26:52
Speaker 3: we've talked about we've absolutely had the mini conversation about
26:55
Speaker 3: the financial abuse aspect and how severe that is, but
26:58
Speaker 3: it's so talked about, this not talked about enough, and
27:02
Speaker 3: how that is so binding, and how again these laws
27:05
Speaker 3: that are being forced upon us that we're regressing in
27:09
Speaker 3: a lot of ways through this administration is trying to
27:11
Speaker 3: put people, specifically women in those marginalized people in those
27:14
Speaker 3: same binds, knowing that it traps people so for to
27:19
Speaker 3: get out in any situation, knowing that eventually you won't
27:25
Speaker 3: necessarily it won't be wonderful, but it'll get normalized that
27:28
Speaker 3: you'll be able to understand you can survive this.
27:31
Speaker 5: And that's such a conversation.
27:33
Speaker 2: I think that's what's so scary about the whole stay
27:35
Speaker 2: at home girlfriend trend because like especially that, like you know,
27:39
Speaker 2: marriage offers you some protections. In my case, it didn't
27:43
Speaker 2: it didn't do anything. By the time I actually got
27:46
Speaker 2: through the divorce process, the money had been gone, and yeah,
27:49
Speaker 2: it's like I'm not gonna uh, you need more resources
27:52
Speaker 2: to get that right. Yeah, it's just scary how I think.
28:00
Speaker 2: You know, the previous generation and the generation before, we
28:03
Speaker 2: fought so hard for these financial rights, the rights to
28:06
Speaker 2: have a credit card, to have bank accounts, to open
28:08
Speaker 2: our own businesses, and for this regression of this is easier.
28:15
Speaker 2: It's like, actually, the conversation should be about, you know,
28:20
Speaker 2: the double shift most women fall into where they're working
28:24
Speaker 2: full time jobs and then also doing housekeeping, childcare and
28:28
Speaker 2: the mental load. And the solution to that isn't taking
28:31
Speaker 2: away agency and control, right, something I wish that I
28:35
Speaker 2: had done, and there are so many reasons behind why
28:39
Speaker 2: I didn't. If you are in a relationship, definitely have
28:43
Speaker 2: savings put aside. There's a great thing online if you
28:46
Speaker 2: just search you fund, it'll come up. And the idea
28:50
Speaker 2: is like, it's somebody very happy in a relationship, and
28:53
Speaker 2: it's just saying in case anything happens, I can say
28:57
Speaker 2: you and peace app right. One should have that because
29:00
Speaker 2: you know what, even if it's obviously it's twenty twenty five.
29:04
Speaker 2: It's not easy to save money, right, but if you
29:07
Speaker 2: can and you have the means, just even a little.
29:09
Speaker 3: Bit, right, that's amazing. And just for edited purposes, f
29:13
Speaker 3: you fun, but actually.
29:15
Speaker 4: Hell, because it's gonna be bleeped out and I don't
29:17
Speaker 4: know if people will understand what it is. Probably so,
29:21
Speaker 4: but sometimes of context, you know how like those skits
29:24
Speaker 4: will just bleep out random words and it's not actually bad,
29:26
Speaker 4: but it sounds like it could be bad, and you're
29:28
Speaker 4: gonna just in case, not that we do that, but
29:30
Speaker 4: you know what I'm saying, just look.
29:33
Speaker 3: At that clarification, but that I didn't know about that.
29:36
Speaker 3: I really want to know where about that specific site.
29:39
Speaker 3: And we'll have to come back to this because that's
29:41
Speaker 3: a fascinating conversation.
29:53
Speaker 5: Some of the things that people may not know.
29:56
Speaker 3: Obviously you are an activist, but they don't understand that
29:59
Speaker 3: you literally really had been a part of these organizations
30:02
Speaker 3: and that's how you actually started out, not just the
30:04
Speaker 3: art activism. And you've been pretty open about why you
30:08
Speaker 3: started in activism, and you talked about some things that
30:11
Speaker 3: have happened through college as well as why reproductive access
30:16
Speaker 3: is so important to you, and can you talk about
30:18
Speaker 3: how that started up for you?
30:21
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, I think the right to autonomy, especially
30:25
Speaker 2: having experienced financial abuse growing up, definitely plays a role.
30:32
Speaker 2: I have always relied on reproductive health care, like whether
30:37
Speaker 2: it was birth control, and it was actually like when
30:39
Speaker 2: I moved to northern Virginia that I lost my health insurance.
30:45
Speaker 2: And the first month I was in Virginia, I had
30:48
Speaker 2: this horrible UTI and I had like saved like five
30:52
Speaker 2: hundred bucks posts like during college to move. This is
30:56
Speaker 2: my big I'm moving out of the house was five
30:59
Speaker 2: hundred dollars. This is great. And of course I moved
31:05
Speaker 2: down to Virginia, I don't have work. I'm living with
31:08
Speaker 2: my boyfriend at the time and his mom and sister,
31:12
Speaker 2: and I have this horrible UTI and literally exhausted all
31:17
Speaker 2: my savings trying to see a provider and trying to
31:21
Speaker 2: get the fricking antibiotics. And so I think that experience
31:27
Speaker 2: I have such core memories of I end up becoming
31:30
Speaker 2: a server California, a piece of kitchen and just standing
31:33
Speaker 2: there and trying not to clench my legs because you know,
31:36
Speaker 2: my rethroat is on fire at right. It's like I
31:40
Speaker 2: got to stand for the next eight hours because I
31:42
Speaker 2: need this paycheck. And you know, when we're talking about
31:47
Speaker 2: reproductive rights, I think so much of the conversation that's
31:51
Speaker 2: missing is that economic justice aspect. I want children. I
31:56
Speaker 2: would love to be a mother. That is a dream
31:58
Speaker 2: of mine. But when I became pregnant at twenty one,
32:03
Speaker 2: me and my ex were living we were taking care
32:05
Speaker 2: of his father who had had a stroke and was
32:09
Speaker 2: struggling with opioid addiction, and so it was a very
32:12
Speaker 2: intense household, like we were taking care of him and
32:16
Speaker 2: then also dealing with this addiction that we didn't know
32:19
Speaker 2: about when he moved in. It wasn't until he moved
32:21
Speaker 2: in that we realized that he was still using and
32:24
Speaker 2: so it was just like, you know, in retrospect, I
32:29
Speaker 2: think I was just so scared. And at the time
32:32
Speaker 2: my ex was like abortion and I was like okay,
32:35
Speaker 2: and going through that process. I wasn't able to get
32:40
Speaker 2: an abortion in Virginia. I had to travel to Maryland
32:43
Speaker 2: and just going through the whole process, and you know,
32:50
Speaker 2: in a way, I ended up going to the clinic
32:52
Speaker 2: with my best friend and that I'm still we're still
32:54
Speaker 2: best friends to this day. My ex did not come,
32:57
Speaker 2: and I just remember like waking up at six in
32:59
Speaker 2: the morning and going to CVS and she was like,
33:02
Speaker 2: I'll just buy you whatever snacks you want. We drove
33:06
Speaker 2: to the clinic and we got the pills, and then
33:09
Speaker 2: you know, she stayed with me through the morning and night.
33:13
Speaker 2: And while it was a lot, I don't think Liberal
33:16
Speaker 2: Jane would have been a thing without it. Liberal Jane
33:19
Speaker 2: was like three or four months old at that point.
33:22
Speaker 2: There would be no art, there would be no I
33:25
Speaker 2: would still be in my old relationship if I would
33:27
Speaker 2: have went through and had that pregnancy. And so even
33:33
Speaker 2: though I never envisioned myself like having an abortion, and
33:36
Speaker 2: even though I had been like very I had been
33:39
Speaker 2: very pro choice and very like pro abortion, but when
33:42
Speaker 2: I went through the experience, I think I understood the stigma,
33:46
Speaker 2: and I think I was at first afraid of that,
33:51
Speaker 2: and then eventually it was like, well, I can sit
33:53
Speaker 2: here and be afraid, or I can step into my power.
33:56
Speaker 2: And so, you know, as an organizer, I would always say,
34:00
Speaker 2: everyone loves someone who had an abortion. And if you
34:02
Speaker 2: don't know anyone who had an abortion, I did, and
34:05
Speaker 2: you love me. Yeah, And just like being able to
34:10
Speaker 2: talk very openly with people about what my experience was.
34:14
Speaker 2: You know, I think at this point I felt like
34:16
Speaker 2: at the time again I was like, Oh, this is
34:18
Speaker 2: so rough. I have to go through all these hoops
34:20
Speaker 2: to have an abortion, and now my story is one
34:23
Speaker 2: of these unfortunately compared to what people are dealing with.
34:27
Speaker 2: But back then it really drove my activism because I
34:30
Speaker 2: I understood the isolation, I understood the stigma. I found
34:36
Speaker 2: out I was pregnant at an urgent care. I had
34:40
Speaker 2: pregnancy acne, which I hope no one has the joy
34:43
Speaker 2: of dealing with. You essentially are covered and like they
34:47
Speaker 2: look like mosquito bites. They're huge all over your body,
34:51
Speaker 2: and they're itchy. And I was covered and I could
34:54
Speaker 2: not figure out what was wrong with me. And I
34:57
Speaker 2: go to the urgent care and I'm expecting them to
34:59
Speaker 2: give me some kind of ointment. And they came in
35:03
Speaker 2: with two nurses and they closed the door and they
35:08
Speaker 2: were all standing in the corner, and I just I
35:10
Speaker 2: was like, this is it. I have like an STI
35:13
Speaker 2: or something.
35:14
Speaker 5: I have cancer? No, Oh my god, And what a
35:18
Speaker 5: way to do that.
35:20
Speaker 2: They told me, they say, is there any chance you
35:23
Speaker 2: might be pregnant? And I said no, and they said,
35:24
Speaker 2: well you are pregnant. Oh well I burst into tears.
35:31
Speaker 2: And the doctor unfortunately, wasn't like very supportive. She was like,
35:37
Speaker 2: who's the father, Like who like can call him? Put
35:41
Speaker 2: me on the phone, and I was like, thankfully. The
35:44
Speaker 2: nurse he was such a gentleman. He was handing me
35:48
Speaker 2: tissues and he was like, can we have a minute,
35:50
Speaker 2: and so it's just me and him and he was like,
35:52
Speaker 2: I know you're sad that like this is happening, and yeah,
35:58
Speaker 2: I think just being in that condition, I mean it's
36:01
Speaker 2: so like I we're talking about something that happened ten
36:04
Speaker 2: years ago and I can still tell you everything, the details,
36:09
Speaker 2: who the people were. You know, It's like when you
36:12
Speaker 2: feel that isolation and stigma, it really sticks with you.
36:18
Speaker 5: Yeah that doctor.
36:19
Speaker 3: Wow, Okay, but this is kind of that conversation about
36:23
Speaker 3: what anti choice looks like and what it means when
36:26
Speaker 3: we see that as a stigma and how it's treated
36:29
Speaker 3: and it causes even much more traumatic response. You shouldn't
36:32
Speaker 3: have to dealt with any of that to understand, No,
36:35
Speaker 3: this is not where I can be right now.
36:37
Speaker 5: I cannot be in this place.
36:39
Speaker 3: And if I am, if I go follow these things
36:42
Speaker 3: because I don't have a choice. Then I essentially have
36:45
Speaker 3: stopped everything. Like for me, it feels like I'm stopping everything.
36:49
Speaker 3: And then the doctor may like, let's talk to the man.
36:50
Speaker 5: You're like, bro, what yeah?
36:54
Speaker 1: I mean.
36:54
Speaker 2: I worked after I had that experience. A couple of
36:57
Speaker 2: years later. I became involved with the Blue Ridge Apportion Fund,
37:00
Speaker 2: and I would do calls and like, that's the thing
37:04
Speaker 2: when people want to talk to me about abortion rights,
37:07
Speaker 2: like and want to have this legal debate. I mean
37:10
Speaker 2: that experience. I spoke to so many people who said,
37:14
Speaker 2: this isn't what I want to do. But I have
37:16
Speaker 2: children already. I can't feed them. This is an economic
37:20
Speaker 2: choice for me. This isn't This isn't do I want
37:23
Speaker 2: a baby or not want a baby? I mean, And
37:26
Speaker 2: even that doctor she her experience was that she and
37:29
Speaker 2: her boyfriend at the time got pregnant, they had the kid,
37:32
Speaker 2: they got married, they went on to have more kids.
37:34
Speaker 2: And that's beautiful, but that's not everyone's life. And that
37:37
Speaker 2: wouldn't have been my life if I would have continued.
37:40
Speaker 5: Right, and she had that choice, like that was her choice,
37:43
Speaker 5: and that's beautiful. Good on her.
37:45
Speaker 3: We're glad to see it, but that's not everybody's story,
37:48
Speaker 3: and that's the understanding of choice.
37:50
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, I'm okay.
37:54
Speaker 1: I was researching for a potential. I thought it was
37:57
Speaker 1: gonna be a short episode, and I was not myself
38:00
Speaker 1: on the head because I was like, why would you
38:01
Speaker 1: think this would ever be a short episode. But MPR
38:04
Speaker 1: is doing this whole series on population shift and about
38:08
Speaker 1: why no one's having kids anymore. Nobody wants to have
38:10
Speaker 1: kids anymore. But it's more it's they can't afford them.
38:14
Speaker 1: It's just that's what it is. And a lot of
38:17
Speaker 1: people do actually want to have kids and cannot and
38:21
Speaker 1: are making a choice about you know, I can't afford
38:25
Speaker 1: to have this kid. So that is definitely something is
38:32
Speaker 1: we're getting it to a breaking point with that. I think.
38:36
Speaker 1: I don't know if anything will actually happen about it,
38:38
Speaker 1: but a breaking point is being reached. And it's interesting
38:41
Speaker 1: to me because when I was fifteen, I got sent
38:46
Speaker 1: to a gynecologist for migraines, I think, and the kind
38:53
Speaker 1: of cologist told me I was pregnant and it was
38:55
Speaker 1: man and I started crying. I was like, this is
38:59
Speaker 1: and he called my dad. He didn't call my mom.
39:03
Speaker 1: He called my dad and I was just sobbing in
39:05
Speaker 1: the background, and I wasn't pregnant. Apparently sometimes you can
39:10
Speaker 1: just get a false pregnancy notice on the little test,
39:14
Speaker 1: and uh, it was so traumatic that I still remember
39:20
Speaker 1: it and I wrote a horror story out. I love horror,
39:26
Speaker 1: but I it was. It was devastating. It was that
39:32
Speaker 1: was gonna be my whole life. And he called my dad.
39:36
Speaker 1: He called my dad.
39:37
Speaker 6: Oh that stigma around that, yeah, And.
39:42
Speaker 2: The purpose of calling your dad was candative, like that
39:46
Speaker 2: was the person that was going to be upset that
39:47
Speaker 2: his daughter was having sex. And like, I mean, my
39:51
Speaker 2: heart breaks for teenagers now because they're getting so much
39:53
Speaker 2: misinformation and particularly like this demonization of birth control, like
39:58
Speaker 2: birth control is bad for mental health? You know what
40:00
Speaker 2: also is that for mental health? Pregnancy dating men.
40:08
Speaker 3: We're about to do an episode about an article I
40:10
Speaker 3: don't know if you read it, Caitlin, about how it's embarrassed.
40:14
Speaker 3: Is it embarrassing to have a boyfriend?
40:15
Speaker 6: Now? Have you read this?
40:17
Speaker 5: Yeah?
40:18
Speaker 8: Yeah, but yeah, I'm like, deal, that's We're also about
40:25
Speaker 8: to do an episode I cannot wait to talk about,
40:27
Speaker 8: but about the influx of media told.
40:32
Speaker 6: From usually white middle aged mothers who have had a.
40:38
Speaker 1: Done and they're tired of dealing with men's bulls. So yeah,
40:47
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that it's just only so long.
40:52
Speaker 6: It's exhausting.
40:52
Speaker 1: All of this is exhausting and it's expensive, and I
40:57
Speaker 1: think people are tired of it and been for a while,
41:00
Speaker 1: and it's bubbling over. One of the things we did
41:03
Speaker 1: want to I guess kind of related I'll talk to
41:06
Speaker 1: you about is for a long time, art and activism
41:11
Speaker 1: have been very closely related. That it is a way
41:15
Speaker 1: to get these messages out there, to bring awareness to
41:19
Speaker 1: issues that maybe people don't want to engage.
41:21
Speaker 6: With until unless it's with art.
41:24
Speaker 1: Why do you think that art and activism goes so
41:29
Speaker 1: well together and that it's so effective.
41:32
Speaker 2: There is research that shows that when there is art,
41:37
Speaker 2: people are more likely to stop than their feeds, and
41:40
Speaker 2: they're more likely to stop for a longer period of
41:42
Speaker 2: time than they've been normally, And so already you have
41:46
Speaker 2: people's attention in a different way. I think something that
41:50
Speaker 2: I've been thinking all out a lot, and if you
41:52
Speaker 2: look at my recent work, I've been doing a lot
41:54
Speaker 2: more like scenes or portraits of people. Art has the
41:59
Speaker 2: ability for us to actually put faces to the issues
42:03
Speaker 2: and to see who it is. You know, I think
42:05
Speaker 2: about so many of the group pieces I do. Like,
42:08
Speaker 2: you know, when we're talking about disability, we are talking
42:11
Speaker 2: about a huge group of people. We are talking about
42:14
Speaker 2: an umbrella that includes short term disabuilding, long term mental, intellectual, physical,
42:18
Speaker 2: Like there's there's so much and in particular with the
42:23
Speaker 2: disabled community, like anyone can become disabled any time, and
42:26
Speaker 2: those experiences are all radically different, and so being able
42:30
Speaker 2: to sort of pull out those stories and I think,
42:34
Speaker 2: you know, I try to do this, like even with
42:37
Speaker 2: like I posted about birth control yesterday, It's like birth
42:41
Speaker 2: control rocks for preventing pregnancy, but there are also so
42:43
Speaker 2: many other uses for it, like and let's not just
42:46
Speaker 2: talk about people who need it for health reasons, Yes,
42:50
Speaker 2: that's super important, but also for trans people who want
42:52
Speaker 2: to bleed on their own terms, or maybe they don't
42:55
Speaker 2: want to have periods, Like there are so many reasons.
42:59
Speaker 2: And when we just blank it, say no birth control,
43:03
Speaker 2: it's bad, it's whatever. You know. I think we're seeing
43:06
Speaker 2: it with the abortion bands, where there are so many
43:08
Speaker 2: people getting caught up, they're having miscarriages and they're not
43:12
Speaker 2: getting the care they need because it's no abortions whatsoever.
43:15
Speaker 2: We're not We're just being told one narrative when there
43:19
Speaker 2: are so many perspectives and there's so many reasons someone
43:23
Speaker 2: might need access to something.
43:26
Speaker 5: That's so much.
43:27
Speaker 3: And I'm just wondering because again, you've been doing this
43:29
Speaker 3: for a little while, You've been doing this artwork for
43:31
Speaker 3: a while, and activism artivism as I know it is
43:34
Speaker 3: said specific to you, because I've never heard that term
43:38
Speaker 3: until I resoarched he.
43:39
Speaker 5: I was like, Oh, that makes sense. I like it.
43:42
Speaker 3: But do you a remember your first piece that really
43:46
Speaker 3: got out there and can you tell what it is?
43:49
Speaker 3: And what is do you have a favorite or is
43:51
Speaker 3: it just like now they're all my babies.
43:53
Speaker 6: Ooh.
43:55
Speaker 2: I think the piece that did the most it was
43:59
Speaker 2: in twenty for the George Floyd protests. It was an
44:05
Speaker 2: image of three people protesting with masks and it was
44:11
Speaker 2: something like if there's no justice for the people, let
44:13
Speaker 2: there be no piece for the government, or something about that.
44:16
Speaker 2: And that was I think the first piece that like
44:20
Speaker 2: really like popped off and like got a large amount
44:25
Speaker 2: of attention. We were able to like fundraise and donate
44:27
Speaker 2: a bunch of money. I forgot where it's been five years.
44:30
Speaker 2: I'm sure I could look it up, but we donated
44:33
Speaker 2: it to I believe a bail fund, and just I
44:37
Speaker 2: love when the art has its moment on social but
44:41
Speaker 2: also can you know, sort of have real life impact
44:46
Speaker 2: in terms of my favorite piece. Oh, that's such a
44:50
Speaker 2: good question. For the longest time, I have a piece
44:53
Speaker 2: that I love using limited color palettes, as as you
44:57
Speaker 2: may have noticed by looking at my work, big fan
45:01
Speaker 2: of color, and I have a piece it's black and
45:04
Speaker 2: white and then it has pops of pink and it
45:07
Speaker 2: says fighting oppression despite my depression. And that was made
45:13
Speaker 2: in like twenty twenty one, right before I left my job,
45:17
Speaker 2: right like after row, like all of these things, like
45:20
Speaker 2: it was just I don't know, I look at that
45:23
Speaker 2: and I see the fighter despite everything. Even at that time,
45:27
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm going to keep fighting and I
45:29
Speaker 2: don't know. I look at that piece and I used
45:34
Speaker 2: to say that in my relationship, my only window to
45:37
Speaker 2: the world was my social media, that my fans posting online.
45:41
Speaker 2: That was genuinely the thing that kept me going. And
45:46
Speaker 2: when I left that room, my world became so much bigger.
45:49
Speaker 2: And now my world is so rich. I used to
45:51
Speaker 2: feel like I used to feel like liberal Jane was
45:53
Speaker 2: the only thing about me, and now I feel like
45:56
Speaker 2: it's a part of me, but it's not the only thing. Yeah.
45:59
Speaker 2: Just that that Peace in particular has an illustration of
46:02
Speaker 2: somebody sitting at their window saying this. It just feels
46:06
Speaker 2: like it's foreshadowing what's going to happen.
46:09
Speaker 5: I mean, you're speaking to a lot of people with
46:11
Speaker 5: that base, like they understand that the depth of that
46:16
Speaker 5: to be like, you gotta do this, but we got this. Yeah,
46:23
Speaker 5: I love it.
46:23
Speaker 3: Do you have someone who influenced you at all in
46:26
Speaker 3: the art world or do you there's someone that you
46:28
Speaker 3: look up to or Field was a mentor for you.
46:32
Speaker 2: That's a great question. I was very lucky to come
46:35
Speaker 2: up with a number of artivists and so we have
46:40
Speaker 2: like a little group chat on Instagram. We all keep
46:42
Speaker 2: in touch. And then I'm also a part there's a
46:45
Speaker 2: collective cult artist for radical Imagination, and that's artists all
46:49
Speaker 2: over the world who again want social change through their work.
46:53
Speaker 2: I think in terms of artists, I'm a huge fan
46:56
Speaker 2: of Mirando July. She is a living artist who I
47:01
Speaker 2: think just deserves so much more attention than she gets,
47:05
Speaker 2: but she's a big influence. And then in terms of illustration,
47:08
Speaker 2: I believe it's Laura Callahan. She does gorgeous illustrations and
47:16
Speaker 2: I think, like I feel so spiritually connected to her
47:19
Speaker 2: because when I was going through my divorce, I kept
47:21
Speaker 2: looking at that photo of Nicole Kidman, you know, with
47:24
Speaker 2: her arms up in the air, and Laura had done
47:28
Speaker 2: an illustration like maybe a week or two before I
47:30
Speaker 2: got my divorce, and I was like, this is for me,
47:33
Speaker 2: Like Laura is reading my mind. It's for me. And
47:38
Speaker 2: I love her work her uh, the way she does expressions,
47:43
Speaker 2: and she draws mostly women as well, and the expressions
47:47
Speaker 2: are just amazing.
47:49
Speaker 6: Yes, excited to look that up.
48:02
Speaker 1: And So you've been mentioning social media and Instagram these
48:07
Speaker 1: are the ways that you've got your art out there
48:12
Speaker 1: and really have this community. What over the years, have
48:17
Speaker 1: you seen any changes when it comes to social media
48:21
Speaker 1: platforms and your work.
48:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. I mean I think the fall of Twitter
48:29
Speaker 2: is its own thing. I feel like I get my
48:33
Speaker 2: two biggest platforms are Instagram and Facebook, which is lots
48:37
Speaker 2: of fun. Facebook in particular, I would say at this
48:41
Speaker 2: point they conservatives will do these like raids where they
48:47
Speaker 2: will storm a post they don't agree with, and honestly,
48:50
Speaker 2: that happens probably once or twice a week at least,
48:54
Speaker 2: And like, you know, the more I post, the more
48:56
Speaker 2: heat I get. And I'm grateful I have a moderator,
48:59
Speaker 2: but it's definitely at least still, especially when it starts
49:03
Speaker 2: leaking into like my personal life, like people will send
49:05
Speaker 2: me messages on my personal Facebook page, or you know,
49:08
Speaker 2: just trying to intimidate me, or I've heard you know,
49:12
Speaker 2: oh your artists, so all these things to try to
49:14
Speaker 2: get me to stop. I'm not stopping. Don't worry. You know,
49:21
Speaker 2: if my family couldn't stop me from making art, I
49:24
Speaker 2: don't think a faceless name online will. But there's definitely
49:30
Speaker 2: been a shift, and I think I have felt on
49:33
Speaker 2: Instagram it does feel like there's less of a community
49:35
Speaker 2: on there, and perhaps that's like the shift to reels,
49:38
Speaker 2: and I'm so resistant to that. I don't want I
49:42
Speaker 2: just I don't know. I refuse to make video context
49:47
Speaker 2: that's not my medium, and so like it does stink
49:51
Speaker 2: to feel like I'm being punished by the algorithm for that,
49:54
Speaker 2: And I know a lot of artists are feeling that,
49:56
Speaker 2: But you know, I think at this point in twenty
49:58
Speaker 2: twenty five, the people like I have a Patreon that
50:01
Speaker 2: people can join for free, and that has more of community,
50:04
Speaker 2: I think, even than Instagram does at times.
50:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've heard that about Patreon because Patreon is kind
50:11
Speaker 1: of a thing you have to seek out as opposed
50:14
Speaker 1: to Instagram. Kind of feels like something that at one
50:17
Speaker 1: time we all just had. Yeah, so that makes sense.
50:23
Speaker 1: Also related to this, we have talked a lot on
50:27
Speaker 1: this show about censorship and how that can look on
50:33
Speaker 1: social media. Has that been something that you've had to
50:37
Speaker 1: deal with. Has that impacted you at all?
50:40
Speaker 2: Absolutely? It's very hard to talk about abortion online. But
50:45
Speaker 2: I have gotten content removed. I used to work on
50:47
Speaker 2: self manage abortion when I worked in nonprofit, and so
50:51
Speaker 2: that is sharing the World Health Organization's protocol for how
50:54
Speaker 2: somebody can use the pills on their own. I've gotten
50:57
Speaker 2: in trouble a handful of times posting that I've actually had.
51:00
Speaker 2: I have a piece that says, if you want to
51:02
Speaker 2: ban abortions, we'll learn to do them ourselves. I can't
51:04
Speaker 2: post that anywhere. Anytime I post it, it's deleted for
51:08
Speaker 2: inciting violence. Despite what we are literally referencing the World
51:14
Speaker 2: Health Organizations protocols. So there's that. I have worked with
51:18
Speaker 2: a lot of repro orcs on the censorship aspect, and
51:23
Speaker 2: anytime I do a brand deal where it's like sex
51:26
Speaker 2: toys or anything like that, like a lot of them
51:30
Speaker 2: like will send you like a one pager of like,
51:33
Speaker 2: oh you want to say sex, here, here's how you
51:36
Speaker 2: have to spell it, and like here are the emojis
51:38
Speaker 2: to you so we can get around the algorithm. And
51:41
Speaker 2: it's people get very frustrated with me, especially when in
51:44
Speaker 2: the art the word sex is censored. But I've gotten
51:49
Speaker 2: in trouble for posting. I have a piece that says
51:53
Speaker 2: sex edge should not have shame or stigma or something
51:56
Speaker 2: like that, and because it has the word sex, we're
51:58
Speaker 2: talking about sex ed right. Because it has the word sex,
52:02
Speaker 2: it's inappropriate and it's like, well, how do we talk
52:04
Speaker 2: about it?
52:07
Speaker 5: Yeah.
52:07
Speaker 3: We actually had an episode with friend of the show Bridget,
52:11
Speaker 3: and she came specifically talking about reproductive organizations being banned
52:16
Speaker 3: and having their entire accounts taken off, like them having
52:20
Speaker 3: hundreds of thousands of followers and all of a sudden
52:22
Speaker 3: losing all of that. Even organizations and platforms saying yeah,
52:25
Speaker 3: that was kind of a mistake because you really didn't
52:26
Speaker 3: violate that, because like, yeah, how is that inciting violence?
52:30
Speaker 3: If you were saying no, this is how you do
52:32
Speaker 3: this from an actual established organization that teaches health around
52:36
Speaker 3: the world, Like what is going on? How is that violent?
52:39
Speaker 3: And then not being able to come back and repel
52:42
Speaker 3: any of those types of accounts or a specific posts,
52:47
Speaker 3: and the fact that it is getting harder and harder
52:49
Speaker 3: and they're having less accountability in their own standards. That's
52:55
Speaker 3: got to be so terrifying. And then also having to
52:57
Speaker 3: deal with your fans and be like, no, I'm not
53:01
Speaker 3: I'm just trying to make sure I can still do.
53:03
Speaker 2: This, trying to get you the information, like I'm you know,
53:07
Speaker 2: I did a series with how to use the abortion
53:09
Speaker 2: pilllar in an organization international. We did a series on digital
53:14
Speaker 2: censorship of repro and people got really upset with me,
53:17
Speaker 2: and I was like, well, these are guides, you know.
53:21
Speaker 2: One of them was what to do if you have
53:22
Speaker 2: to keep your abortion a secret, and like, you know,
53:25
Speaker 2: the digital side of it, and that information is so important,
53:30
Speaker 2: but yeah, the word abortion is censored throughout the entire
53:33
Speaker 2: post and I I get that. It's frustrating. I'm frustrated because,
53:37
Speaker 2: you know, like I just want to I don't. I
53:39
Speaker 2: don't want to write sex as se c Q, like
53:44
Speaker 2: I aged, you know something. I see posts out in
53:47
Speaker 2: the wild from repro orgs and I'm like, what what
53:50
Speaker 2: are you saying? And then I have to like say
53:52
Speaker 2: it out loud to be like, oh, that's the word.
53:54
Speaker 2: And it's like because we have to be so creative.
53:57
Speaker 3: Right right, Like people are using grape instead of rape
54:01
Speaker 3: on like videos and everybody gets like, well, I can't
54:03
Speaker 3: you just say it? You're like no, really, they can't
54:05
Speaker 3: say it, or this video won't exist or those posts
54:08
Speaker 3: won't exist.
54:09
Speaker 2: And it bleeds into real life. I used to have TikTok.
54:12
Speaker 2: I deleted it, but I found myself saying unlived and
54:15
Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, no, no, no, no, that's not right.
54:20
Speaker 3: And this is a twofold conversation. It's like they're doing
54:24
Speaker 3: the conservative I guess far right are doing exactly what
54:28
Speaker 3: they want to do, which makes it unseerious. It feels
54:31
Speaker 3: like it's no longer educational but a mimic like a
54:35
Speaker 3: meme or something, and it's like, no, but this is
54:38
Speaker 3: the only way you can do it. They have purposely
54:40
Speaker 3: done this so it won't be taken seriously, or that
54:43
Speaker 3: people are just frustrated and don't care about the actual
54:45
Speaker 3: information in here, which.
54:48
Speaker 5: Is so scary and so faking smart. I hate bad
54:51
Speaker 5: people are smart.
54:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, me too. Lobotomies for all billionaire men.
54:59
Speaker 3: Thank you, I said behind that went too. So obviously
55:04
Speaker 3: you your art is activism and advocacy, but again you
55:07
Speaker 3: are a boots on the ground activist as well. Can
55:11
Speaker 3: you talk about some of the work you have done
55:13
Speaker 3: in the past and organizations that you've been working with
55:15
Speaker 3: or have worked with as of late.
55:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, like I mentioned, because of burnout, I think I
55:22
Speaker 2: took a step back from a lot of things. Still
55:24
Speaker 2: very involved in the repro and abortion space, but I
55:28
Speaker 2: think personally, like the boundary for me is I don't
55:32
Speaker 2: necessarily do direct support anymore like I used to do
55:35
Speaker 2: the phone calls for the Abortion Fund. Then, like I think,
55:38
Speaker 2: you know, being empathetic is a great quality, but also
55:42
Speaker 2: knowing that the toll it takes on you and being
55:44
Speaker 2: able to set those personal boundaries is really good. So
55:48
Speaker 2: a lot of what I've been doing is behind the scenes.
55:49
Speaker 2: A lot of supportive, you know, creating art for nonprofits,
55:53
Speaker 2: sort of doing background work. And so I think the
55:57
Speaker 2: biggest areas a focus, especially this year. Of course, abortion
56:02
Speaker 2: rights for reproductive rights I think will always be up there,
56:05
Speaker 2: just because my experience, but also LGBTQ liberation, especially trans
56:12
Speaker 2: rights right now, and really putting a face to trans people.
56:18
Speaker 2: And really, you know, I think I've been thinking a
56:22
Speaker 2: lot about like how do we expand this definition of
56:26
Speaker 2: gender firming care to be like, you know, when I
56:28
Speaker 2: get my hair done, that's gender firming care. When I
56:31
Speaker 2: get my nails done. You know, it's like, let's let's
56:34
Speaker 2: open up this conversation more. And then, of course, something
56:38
Speaker 2: that's like always been very close to my heart is
56:40
Speaker 2: just what's happening with immigrants right now and ICE. I
56:45
Speaker 2: live here in Baltimore and we're essentially preparing for ICE
56:49
Speaker 2: in the next several weeks. Donald Trump, of course, you know,
56:52
Speaker 2: named a handful of US cities that are beyond and
56:56
Speaker 2: you know, criminal and Baltimore was up there, and it's
56:59
Speaker 2: very strange living here and I live in the community
57:04
Speaker 2: that's mostly immigrants and just seeing in the day to
57:08
Speaker 2: day it's just such a vibrant community and the fact
57:12
Speaker 2: that we're being threatened with militarization when these are people
57:16
Speaker 2: that are just living their lives. That to me is
57:20
Speaker 2: just awful. I feel like we're raising the next generation
57:24
Speaker 2: of super villains by like yanking parents away from kids,
57:28
Speaker 2: and just like I I just, yeah, my heart breaks
57:33
Speaker 2: thinking about like the generational toll of what we've been
57:36
Speaker 2: doing over the last five ten years. I mean, I'm
57:38
Speaker 2: beyond that, but especially in this latest iteration.
57:42
Speaker 3: I mean definitely we're living in a part of that
57:44
Speaker 3: generational toll, which is the nightmare that we're like what
57:48
Speaker 3: like everybody's been warning about and now we're making it
57:51
Speaker 3: ten times worse with what is happening today. And I
57:55
Speaker 3: have to get kudos to you, like learning to step
57:57
Speaker 3: away when everything in you wants to be like.
58:00
Speaker 5: No, but I have to do this. No one is
58:02
Speaker 5: going to do this. I have to do this.
58:05
Speaker 3: My background is in social work, and I worked as
58:07
Speaker 3: a case manager for many situations, and the burnout is legitimate,
58:12
Speaker 3: Like you literally waste the way, whether it's in sickness,
58:16
Speaker 3: whether it's mental health, like or physical sickness and mental
58:19
Speaker 3: health stuff, like there's so much, only so much that
58:22
Speaker 3: you can give until you fall apart and you can't
58:26
Speaker 3: give to anything. And so having the fortitude and understanding
58:30
Speaker 3: and listening to your body, listening to your mental health
58:34
Speaker 3: is a strength in itself. And I think we've said
58:38
Speaker 3: this to our listeners repeatedly. As a person who constantly
58:43
Speaker 3: growing up was told I need to be grateful and
58:45
Speaker 3: give back. That's the only way that I can truly
58:48
Speaker 3: be thankful to the white saviors of my life, you know, like,
58:51
Speaker 3: even though they may not like require it of me,
58:55
Speaker 3: the teachings that I have is understand that that's what
58:57
Speaker 3: I was supposed to be doing, but realize that that
59:00
Speaker 3: is actually another toxic part of a patriarchal system with
59:04
Speaker 3: white supremacy that really is a way to get rid
59:07
Speaker 3: of us. And so for you to do that, I
59:11
Speaker 3: think it needs to be complimented and it needs to
59:15
Speaker 3: be uplifted, Like people need to know it is okay,
59:19
Speaker 3: and it is better for you to take that time
59:22
Speaker 3: so you can come back round and not completely give out.
59:27
Speaker 2: So yeah, I just thank you, first of all. I
59:30
Speaker 2: do so appreciate that. You know, I think I've been
59:33
Speaker 2: seeing over the last five ten years, especially in nonprofit
59:36
Speaker 2: there's this push to have the people with the lived
59:40
Speaker 2: experience leading, which is fantastic. I am super excited about them.
59:44
Speaker 2: I'm excited to see people who have actually experienced what
59:46
Speaker 2: we are talking about leading. But I think the part
59:50
Speaker 2: of it that we are still missing is that care
59:53
Speaker 2: and burnout prevention. Like I think it's like, we have
59:57
Speaker 2: the impacted person, but we're not thinking about are we
1:00:00
Speaker 2: taking care of them mentally spiritually? Like is there you know,
1:00:05
Speaker 2: those of the nonprofit have health insurance so they can
1:00:07
Speaker 2: see a therapist, right, and yeah, I think you know,
1:00:11
Speaker 2: on the surface, it's like, yeah, this is great, but
1:00:13
Speaker 2: we're I've seen so many of the people I started
1:00:18
Speaker 2: in nonprofit with are in the same boat of burnout.
1:00:20
Speaker 2: They are now doing their own thing or they switch field.
1:00:23
Speaker 2: And it's not because they don't care, it's just you
1:00:28
Speaker 2: care too much.
1:00:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, which brings me to the next question that I
1:00:36
Speaker 1: always feel guilty asking people because you're doing so much already,
1:00:41
Speaker 1: But is there anything that you have on the horizon
1:00:45
Speaker 1: that you're really excited about or.
1:00:46
Speaker 6: That you would like to shout out?
1:00:49
Speaker 2: Yes, I have been working on a graphic novel for
1:00:52
Speaker 2: several years. It is about half written at this point,
1:00:57
Speaker 2: and it's something I did take break from when I
1:00:59
Speaker 2: was going through life, but I've picked it up in
1:01:04
Speaker 2: the last several months, and I'm excited about that because
1:01:08
Speaker 2: unlike social media, where I only get maybe six to
1:01:11
Speaker 2: seven seconds of someone's attention, a book is like sit
1:01:14
Speaker 2: down with me and let's actually sit and like put
1:01:19
Speaker 2: image to words. And I'm very excited it has to
1:01:23
Speaker 2: do essentially, it has a lot to do with intergenerational drama,
1:01:27
Speaker 2: and in particular the way that conservatism affects small towns
1:01:34
Speaker 2: and the way that like anti trans rhetoric plays out
1:01:36
Speaker 2: in school districts. And how you know this is, I mean,
1:01:44
Speaker 2: I think about the Moms for Liberty and stuff and
1:01:46
Speaker 2: parental rights and that whole movement and just I don't
1:01:52
Speaker 2: want to say humanizing it, but exploring it and also
1:01:55
Speaker 2: giving people the tools to fight back against staff.
1:01:58
Speaker 3: Oh well, you're speaking to at heart, so that makes
1:02:01
Speaker 3: you having a plan the minute you publish, please contact
1:02:03
Speaker 3: us so we can have you on the show. We
1:02:06
Speaker 3: need to be at least number two on your list
1:02:08
Speaker 3: of shows to be on.
1:02:08
Speaker 2: I'm just kidding, no number one, number one. You guys
1:02:11
Speaker 2: got me on the on the ground floor. I'm only
1:02:15
Speaker 2: going up from here, so I will not forget.
1:02:17
Speaker 3: Y'all, okay, because we love graphic novels up here, and
1:02:22
Speaker 3: you're talking our language like you are a part of
1:02:24
Speaker 3: our community. In this conversation that you're saying are like
1:02:27
Speaker 3: speaking to our heart. You must be back for this.
1:02:30
Speaker 3: We claim you.
1:02:31
Speaker 6: That's so cool, that's exciting.
1:02:33
Speaker 1: Yes, please please come back on to talk about that.
1:02:37
Speaker 1: We would love to do it. But this conversation has
1:02:42
Speaker 1: been so lovely. We would have you back anytime. Thank
1:02:45
Speaker 1: you for being here. How can the good listeners find you?
1:02:49
Speaker 2: I am Liberal Jane across social media. I am on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter,
1:02:54
Speaker 2: Blue Sky, threads, tumbler, and maybe TikTok.
1:02:58
Speaker 5: I got your TikTok.
1:03:02
Speaker 6: Tumbler. Yes, I love this, okay all the way back.
1:03:07
Speaker 1: Well, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for
1:03:09
Speaker 1: being here, and definitely come back. Definitely come back when
1:03:14
Speaker 1: the graphic novel comes out.
1:03:16
Speaker 6: That sounds amazing.
1:03:18
Speaker 5: Well do.
1:03:18
Speaker 2: Thank you both so much for having me. It's been
1:03:20
Speaker 2: so fun.
1:03:21
Speaker 1: And listeners, if you would like to contact us, you
1:03:24
Speaker 1: can or email us hello at stuff Whenever Told You
1:03:26
Speaker 1: dot com. You can find us on Blue Sky, at
1:03:28
Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff
1:03:30
Speaker 1: I Never Told You or else on YouTube. We have
1:03:32
Speaker 1: new merchandise at Compureau and we have the book you
1:03:35
Speaker 1: can get wherever you get here. Thanks as always too,
1:03:37
Speaker 1: our super producer Ristina, our executive puer My.
1:03:39
Speaker 6: And your contributor Joey.
1:03:41
Speaker 2: Thank you and thanks to you for
1:03:42
Speaker 1: Listening Stuff and Never Told You Reflection of by Heart
1:03:44
Speaker 1: Radio for our podcast from My Heart Radio, you can
1:03:46
Speaker 1: check out the heart Radio app, Apple podcast or if
1:03:48
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows,