Latest / Built Different Chicago / Who Should Own the Future of Our Neighborhoods?
Transcript
- speaker-0: Welcome to Built Different Chicago, a podcast where we explore how neighborhoods and communities get built, what makes them evolve, and what that means for all of us. I'm Stacy Young from Community Investment Corporation. speaker-1: And I'm Megan Hart from Lisp. speaker-0: Each episode we'll dig into one big question about community development. Today we're asking, who should own the future of our neighborhoods? speaker-1: Stacy, can you tell me more about what you mean by this question? speaker-0: Megan, we talk about developers as if they're one big similar group. And they're not. There's all sorts of different kinds of developers. We've got our downtown developers that everybody hears about and reads about in the newspapers. We've got our developers that focus on residential or commercial and retail. We've got developers who focus on subsidized housing. And what we don't talk a lot about are those developers who really work in the neighborhoods. They're small to mid sized. They might be just getting their start. And we haven't learned a lot about what they do outside of institutions like Community Investment Corporation and Lisp. Yeah. speaker-1: I I totally agree. And I would add even nonprofit developers and community based organizations, those small for profit and sometimes nonprofit developers that are doing that work and have been for a long time. speaker-0: CIC and LISC, we've been financing these developers for a good long time. And there's a lot of them out there. And if you don't understand them and you don't understand why their work is so important to the neighborhoods, we don't know how to support them. So to learn more about this topic, I called up Colette English Dixon, director of the Marshall Bennett Institute of Real Estate at Roosevelt University and CIC board member Extraordinaire. speaker-1: her, not just Collette, but the whole Roosevelt University and the investment they're making into this avenue of work and the focus around real estate and communities is really impressive. So I'm excited to hear what you talk to her about. speaker-0: She is such a leader on the topic and believe me, she moderates every panel about development in the city of Chicago. We've all seen her. She published a report a year or two ago on diverse developers. So I thought she'd be a great lead-in to this to this podcast today. speaker-1: That's awesome. Love to hear what that conversation was like. speaker-2: Hey, how are you, Stacey? speaker-0: Good, how are you? Thank you so much for taking my call. I was hoping you could talk a bit about the research that you published last year and what were some of the challenges that you uncovered and some of the needs of neighborhood developers, especially developers of color. speaker-2: The report that we released is a landscape scan of programs, issues, and opportunities that are facing real estate participants of color. It talks about the challenges of being an investor, the challenges of being a contractor, and the challenges of being a developer in the market when you're trying to grow a business and have impact in your communities. We came out of it with two or three kind of major points. One that The real estate industry has decided that in order to get capital, if you're a developer of color and you're developing in communities of color, that you've got to be the one building the low income housing. that's your role. And if you do that, we'll give you money. But what if you want to do something else? Our communities don't need just moderate or low income housing. We need people to build grocery stores. We need people to build for cell housing. We need people to build mixed income housing, commercial space, all those things that make communities vibrant. Right. The problem is trying to get the money. And these projects generally are a bit more expensive. Doing ground level commercial or doing buildings that can be for people who have all sorts of incomes and come from all sorts of jobs and want to live in these communities. You've got to have a different source of money to build those and that money is harder to get speaker-0: Do you think it's harder for these developers 'cause they're smaller because they don't necessarily come from a development background or family speaker-2: Being a small developer is very, very challenging, right? You need to have that backstop money in case things go sideways. And if you don't have that, it makes it very difficult to get someone to give you money. So it's like you gotta have money to get money, you know that story. And to be a bigger firm, you have to have the experience to do that. You have to have the track record of having gotten some things done and paying back some loans. speaker-0: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So you're talking about money, experience, and partnerships as being really important parts of Yeah. speaker-2: Really important. speaker-0: Well, thank you so much, Colette. That was really, really helpful and great report. Appreciate your time today. speaker-2: Well, thanks for the call. Always good to chat with you, Stacey. speaker-0: So I thought that was a really great conversation we had. And this research is really important because a lot of people in the development field who don't know about these small, especially developers of color, they make assumptions. They think they understand motivations and what these folks are trying to do. But Colette actually went out there and did the research and she talked to them. speaker-1: I don't think I really appreciate it that community based developers are pigeonholed into one type of real estate asset. So that was a really interesting takeaway for me. speaker-0: And look, some are really interested in doing something subsidized, some are not. And so her research really helps us to understand, okay, well, they need money, they need partnerships, they need different kinds of support. speaker-1: Totally appreciate that. And I think any developer anywhere needs to be able to access capital to provide the variety of needs in a community. So subsidized being government supported projects and then just other private market projects. So I was glad she talked about that. What what what was your takeaway from that? speaker-0: Well, she emphasized capital. She also emphasized experience, right? Having a partner to help you along, having a mentor to, help you understand the industry and help you overcome some challenges. speaker-1: change it. So I'm guessing you have somebody for us to talk to that can give us the firsthand experience of all of that. speaker-0: Bonita Harrison is our guest today, and she's the founder and CEO of Sunshine Management, a visionary real estate developer, broker, and community leader committed to transforming Chicago neighborhoods through equitable, community-driven development. I love Bonita more and more every time I read about her and get to know her. So not only has she completed Or is in development on 300 units. She's created 400 new jobs, $250,000 in annual tax revenue. And she doesn't just have a Bachelor of Science in Math from the University of Illinois. She has her masters. She's gotten all sorts of recognitions. She was Cook County Land Bank Authority Developer of the Year, first woman, first black recipient. and youngest honoree in the awards history, women in community leadership recognition awardee. She's been featured in Stun Times, Cranes, Wall Street Journal, and Essence. And she is, most importantly, a force to be reckoned with. I met her when she was doing Buy Back the Block in West Woodlawn and been part of her fan club ever since. speaker-1: So two things I'm Benita. One, don't read our bio after you just heard her bio. That's number one. Two is the name of her company is exactly who she is, Sunshine. She is such a positive influence to everybody she meets. I I love her too. We work with her in our next gen program. So thank you, Stacy and CIC, for developing and supporting all of these. neighborhood developers and and then handing them over to us to continue to support and sh letting us share in their their success. speaker-0: Yeah, so I'm just thrilled to welcome Bonita to the podcast and help us talk about who should own the future of our neighborhoods. speaker-3: Thank you both so much, Stacey. I'm fans of both you all and so happy to be partners with two of our most catalytic investments and developments that we've ever had before. So thank you guys for allowing me to be here and I'm looking forward to the conversation. speaker-0: Outstanding, outstanding. Megan mentioned that you were part of their next gen cohort, but I feel like you are also a mentor to so many small developers in the neighborhoods. Tell us, how did you get here? You're a self-made woman. Why did you get into development? speaker-3: So I grew up in the eighties and the nineties during that era where I saw a lot of the Chicago housing projects come down. so there's a lot of dilapidated properties and vacant lots in our community. So I saw opportunities to invest and bring families back. So that is my heart of why I really wanted to become a developer. But then there's a story. My first job out of college was at PepsiCo. I mean I was so excited. I bought my first home in the Grand Crossing community and it was highlighter pink and electric blue. And I went in, I completely gutted the property and rehabbed it. And my family, they're all entrepreneurs. So within, say, not even six weeks of me developing the property and moving in, they let me go. And I was like, my God, I'll lose my home, I'll lose my credit. And I sold the property. It was in 2006. And that's what really opened my eyes to this opportunity of development because I was always very fascinated with the opportunities that was presented to me in our community. But then that propelled me into the industry. So so the property took the profit and invested over and over again. And that's is really how sunshine management was born. speaker-1: That's awesome. development is, you know, risky and can be challenging. can you talk about some of those challenges? I'm also super curious. A whole family of entrepreneurs, how how do you think that came to be? speaker-3: The family of entrepreneurs, yes. My mother, father, grandparents, everyone were all entrepreneurs. and I was the first college bred. So they did not want me to travel that same trajectory, right? They wanted me to go to college, get a good education, work in corporate America. And that's what I believed that I was doing. And then corporate America said, Hey, no. We think you're better off as an entrepreneur. But my mom was a hairdresser, my father's an electrician, my brother's a painter, my sister's a realtor. So we're all adjacent to real estate in some form or fashion. And then as far as the issues that surrounds development. So as a developer, there's so many things that you have to do. It's just not one thing. It's just not constructing a property, right? Is assembling land. How do you put together your financing, entitlements, managing construction, community engagement, and especially as a smaller developer, your bigger firms, you have teams of people who tackle each one of these facets of development. But when you're a single developer and then you don't have a history or you're not three generations into it, it can be difficult and it can be a lot to take on. speaker-0: development is such a challenging business. And I mentioned before that I was lucky enough to meet you because we got to finance your piece of buying back the block. You took the lead on a group of small developers who had vacant lots, part of the development process is starting off with the land. Tell us more about that project and why it was important to work collaboratively with these other small to mid-sized developers. speaker-3: was really a simple idea. We were all independently building properties within the community and we decided to work together. We thought about what would the impact be if we all came together to truly transform an entire block. I think collectively we shared some of the same pain points. You know, the population decline. We have one house that sits on a tranche of land and there's no other neighbors around. So we kind of came together to think about where can we really drive impact. But not only that, because it's coupled with how do we build this project and have a lender come and finance it. Because in a lot of our communities, the construction cost exceeds the market value. Right. And being able to cover that cost is is sometimes it's it's difficult for lenders to see the potential in the community. And so we looked at Westwood Lawn. Westwood Lawn at that time the values could not cover the construction cost. It was a community known as Right or adjacent to O Block, was which was the s front page of the Sun Times magazine as the most dangerous community in America. and we all agreed, let's develop on this block, which is a 6,300 block of Advance, which at that time was probably three to four homes on an entire block. So it was 10 parcels that we were able to purchase from Cook County Land Bank. we redeveloped. And at the time I remember Stacy. I really appreciated you and your company because even at that groundbreaking you all came and we were not even partners at this point, but you guys came, you invested in that groundbreaking and you supported us, right? you called out to see how you can bring any type of resources. So we really, truly, truly appreciated that. And it was very simple. Your partnership, you came and said, Hey, you guys have money already invested in this project. Right. Let us partner to bring it to the end. So I truly appreciate that. But what happened from there, it was truly impactful because this community that at that point, I think our construction cost was around six hundred and seventy eight thousand per project. But right across the street you had Eastwood Lawn. Eastwood Lawn had values of over a million dollars. So be to be able to move some of that that investment west into the Westwoodlawn community and then have neighbors call you and say, we are so grateful for you coming to our community. There's equity. Now I'm able to rebuild my property. The furnace is out, the roof is out, but now I have equity that I can borrow from. so that was that was powerful for us. We bought our land for six thousand dollars and now the land is valued at over sixty thousand. There's a tremendous amount of development that's going on in that community and the community members are benefiting from that investment. speaker-1: So you getting together with your partners, was that about different areas of expertise to make one big effort, or was it to go further, faster and do impact on that block like you talked about? speaker-3: Think it I think it was both, right? Each one of us have our own strength, but to bring all of that together and also make an impact in the community that may have not seen that same level of impact for some years to come. Right. I think our reason was how can we bring equity back to these communities and speaker-1: Do you think having six properties made the individual properties more marketable? I would imagine so. speaker-3: Yes, so it was thirty units in total, ten parcels, and it absolutely raised the property value. I remember sitting at Colette Dixon had had a talk and I was sitting next to someone else at the table and she was like, Are you aren't you that buyback the block developer? speaker-1: Ha ha ha. speaker-3: yes. And so she's like, I just want to thank you. You know, and we now have three hundred thousand dollars of equity in our home. What do you speaker-1: think it's so important for you all from the community to be the ones doing the development. speaker-3: I think one of the things is proximity, right? When you're someone that's in the community and you know the community, you know the challenges, you are also partnering with some of the laborers or tradesmen, the suppliers that are in the community. So you're able to recycle that money for one, and then you have a responsibility. You're vested. You will see this development 20, 30 years down the road. And so you care about what happens with this development. speaker-0: I think that's so important. You're invested in the community. Your boots are on the ground. You see what's happening. At the same time, do you feel like because you're local that you and other local developers of color in these historically disinvested neighborhoods some of the time are held to a different standard? Colette was talking about A lot of times the rest of the world would expect you to only do government assisted, affordable projects. Do you feel like you're not expected to make as much of a profit as someone else who came from the outside? What's that like? speaker-3: Yeah, I think Khaled has a a great point. Sometimes we confuse access with capacity. So a developer may be doing smaller projects because that's the capital they've been able to access. Right. Not because that's the limit of their ability. And as we pointed at earlier, they're the same skills that's used to develop in communities such as Bronzeville, North Lawndale, Inglewood, Assembly Land, Financing Entitlements, Construction Management, Community Engagement. Those are the same development skills that you need for downtown development. So if you give local developers access to larger amounts of capital and larger opportunities, I think you'll see many of us scale. speaker-1: That's when I first met you, Benita, in some conference room downtown with your team, trying to talk to some finance institutions about just like a line of credit, like to help you do more than one project at a time. Are you still hampered by that ability to expand because of the access to capital? speaker-3: Definitely had the opportunity to scale a little larger than what I was when I first met you. So we do have more opportunities now. So there's more partners that are looking to invest. However, I think that yeah, this is not easy either. Right. So it's not like, hey, here's our reputation. We've we've developed this amount of homes. There's still limitations. So they may extend to you a five million dollar line of credit, but then They'll say, Hey, you can only do two projects at a time. I was like, Well, we've shown that we can do five to six at one time, right? But right, it doesn't really matter. So they wanna pigeonhole you, as you said earlier, into what they believe you can do, not what your experience shows them that you can do. speaker-0: And I have to point out, you're like a local superstar here truly. you do great marketing. Your social media is outstanding. I was talking about Caleb being on every panel. Maybe every other panel. Every other panel Bonita's on. speaker-1: How do how do you find time to actually develop any properties and do speaker-0: But that's that's the truth. so I was gonna say if Bonita has challenges accessing capital and getting past people's preconceived notions of what she should be doing, there's everybody else in the world too. So Bonita, I mean, it just feels like you you have done so much. You have grown, but the challenges are still there. And you're growing as a small business which has its own set of challenges. speaker-3: I I think for us, scaling is very difficult. I don't know if anyone prepared us for what this means. When you're smaller and you have one, two, maybe three projects that you're doing in the year, you have the opportunity to work with your architect to pick out the plans, to visit the site, to put the financing together. But then when you look at building the business, the infrastructure of the business and hiring accountants and finance and project managers. What is their lanes and putting all that together, that's something that you're not prepared for being your entrepreneur. But it's been it's been rewarding at the same time because I can see my growth as well. And I didn't have a mentor to just walk me through what that looks like and help me grow my company the correct way. But I think now I won't say I have it all together. But we're working on having it together. speaker-1: Yeah. so you started one person, right? You and where are you today, if you could remind us again that. speaker-3: Yes. Yes. We have more than three hundred properties under our belt now. As far as our team, we're about twenty people on our team now. speaker-1: I know you're going into more communities. talk about the communities that you are in and what you're focused on. speaker-3: Megan, I really truly love what we do. So we have a lot of developers that's invested in deeply affordable housing. We have a lot of builders that are in the luxury realm. But then sometimes this missing middle, whether that's the density or the income levels, are left out of the conversation. So that I think for us is is how do we fit into this space and and ensure that we're bringing an entire ecosystem with us? And even for families that's purchasing these properties, there's really not a lot of funding that's geared toward that missing metal. So there is a gap there that I think in that those working class families. speaker-1: there's a couple of things I wanna unpack in what we've been talking about. So let's be pretty clear about what missing middle is because I think people can make assumptions. So I'm gonna hand that off to Stacey. Explain missing middle, will you? In in less than thirty seconds. speaker-0: I go crazy when people talk about terms and people have different perceptions about the what those terms mean. So missing middle typically means two things. One is density, something between a multifamily building with a hundred units and a single family home. And missing middle is four flat, six flat, that sort of thing. And the other is income. This gap between folks who get government assistance because they are very low income. And then people who have a lot of income and can afford housing and there's everybody else in the middle. And so the missing middle is I think a combination of those two things. speaker-3: So there's a lot of work to do there. However, yes, expanding what we do as well. So we definitely pitched a project that we did in Next Gen for Litech. They're interested in in how do we use new markets to help further home ownership because our mission is bridging that equity gap. So there's a lot of people that are in underinvested communities that we believe should have an opportunity at home ownership. speaker-0: I think what a great description of your place and progression within the ecosystem. Thank you for laying that out. the different types of financing, the different types of housing, missing middle, which you've been an important part of. But you mentioned that sometimes there's gaps in the financing. What what role do CDFIs and alternative financing tools play in the ecosystem and what you do in the neighborhoods? speaker-3: The role of CDFIs, they're often willing to understand our needs as a community developer. I think that. For me, that is one of the most important things that I've experienced with CIC and LISP. CDFIs provide pre-development funding. So a lot of times I think a lot of developers get caught up in that beginning. How do we fund the surveys? How do we do environmental studies? all of those things you have to think about. Then acquiring the parcel or the structure. How do you acquire that? The ability to see past some of the just the traditional standards that majority of our banks have. We've had a great relationship with the CDFIs to be able to just think. further or think more holistically about the needs. Example, buy back the block with CIC and our current project, The Missing Middle and in North Lawndale. speaker-1: Thank you for the shout out. I'll I'll just take my flowers when I when I can get But I think one of the challenges that we had, Benita, and I think this is sort of new. And so justifying that there is a market for for sale multi unit in some communities, traditional financers or CDFIs, and this suspect, like you're not going to be able to get market prices or you're defining how how do you even define market? Right. sometimes community developers and community perspective is not believed. It's like the market. the people sitting on the other side that are looking at your deal don't live in your community, don't have any sense of what the marketability is, just assumptions based on a whole bunch of other things other than lived experience or real experience. So was so I'm answering my own question, but was that a challenge to be able to say there is a market for this and this will sell. speaker-3: think what we proved in the Westwood Line community, if we build it, they will come. Right? I think we've lost maybe around but probably around seventy percent of our population in all the west and south sides of Chicago. And one thing that we know is that sometimes we don't have the preferred housing stock. To bring the people back to the community. Also the amenities, right? Right. But one thing that is unique about Bronzeville and what's unique about Woodlawn is that we're able to bring back a lot of the population. We don't have amenities. We don't have a yoga studio. We don't have a yoga shop. However, the people are still coming back into the community. and I think it's the investment that we're bringing back, it's the preferred housing stock that's there. speaker-1: that's a great point because in the early to mid nineties, new homes for Chicago. So homes built in Pilson and the the parade of homes that you talk about, Benita, they proved out that model and then somehow we're still having to prove out that model. And at the same time not necessarily believing the folks on the ground that know this the best. What would it take to support and prioritize more local developers? And where do we begin? speaker-3: definitely money, right? There's money, there's relationships that's needed. I think your organization lists with NextGen helping with some of those back end technical skills is very much needed. But I'm really thinking about this ecosystem that exists, right? Because when we're supporting emerging developers, those emerging developers have supported the businesses of a lot of tradesmen. And so how do we support their business as we grow. And then one of the things that I ask sometimes what is the end goal? Is it in goal to construct properties or is the end goal for the community to actually absorb the properties that we're constructing? Because it's very important that we identify the true problem. And the problem is the community being able to own the properties inside of their actual community, that missing middle, those families that exist between that 80 and 140% price point. especially with the current interest rates, how do we develop programming and funding so that they are able to afford these properties because the construction cost is not going down. As speaker-1: you develop more and you start to create a market, what do you think about outside developers coming in? You think that's a good thing, a challenging thing? speaker-3: What? And when you say outside developers, are they coming to partner within the community with some of the local developers, maybe to extend balance sheets or give money or speaker-1: Well I mean speaker-0: Do you see what an optimist she is, Megan? She totally isn't the person. She is the sunshine person. speaker-3: Yeah, so I can bring up a story. Bought a 22 unit property at the corner of 74th and Yale. And I remember when I first entered this was probably 10 of them that was actually paying. It was full, but then we had 12 units that were not paying. It was dilapidated. We had rats the size of ground halls, bed butts, roaches, like everything that you can imagine. We were able to successfully turn this building around. Our partners at the Department of Building, they were very happy that we were there. I think CIC actually took a look at this project too. So in 2020, we had sold it to the outside investor that purchased the property. And I drive past here now. It looks almost similar to when we acquired it. And from what I've heard is actually in foreclosure and talking to the current residents, the landlord was an absentee landlord. They were not vested in the community. The residents while we were there, we gave them jobs, we gave them opportunity. Like we were very present when people are coming into the community. I I think it really matters what their intentions are. But if they're not interested in the growth and bettering the community, then it's probably best that that they don't come. Yeah. I guess that's as straightforward as I can be. But I think if we're gonna have any outside investors, I think they should come in to partner, especially with lending capital and helping with some back end technical support, but not just to come and extract the value from the community and take it somewhere else. speaker-0: Well, that is a great way to wrap and to remind everyone why it's so important to support and learn about and understand our local neighborhood developers like Bonita Harrison, and so many of your colleagues that I think really don't get the attention that you all deserve in terms of all the work you're doing, the impact that you're making. and bring the population back to Chicago. what you're describing is such, such important work. But what's really important right now, Bonita, is we have a lightning round and we have several questions we're going to have to ask you. And I'm gonna ask Megan to get started. speaker-1: Okay, Benita, you're gonna have to use your advanced degrees to answer this question, okay? speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: Catch up on hot dogs, yes or no? speaker-3: Absolutely not. Damn. speaker-1: Dang. speaker-0: Love the decisive yes. No hesitation. speaker-3: So a Chicago hot dog or speaker-0: I love it. Okay, what's one thing people get wrong about Chicago? speaker-1: Right. favorite neighborhood that isn't your own. speaker-3: I think I love Beverly. Hmm. speaker-1: Alright. What that was judgy, Stacey. Hmm. speaker-3: Right. speaker-1: I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. No, speaker-3: Okay. Should I change my answer or no? speaker-1: I do like Beverly too. I do. And so does Stacy. speaker-0: I really speaker-3: I spend my summers in Beverly, so so Stacy. That's probably why. speaker-0: With your family of entrepreneurs. You spend your summer in Beverly. Okay, now th this one is very controversial. No judgment. Cubs or socks? speaker-3: I'm a South Sider, so white socks, absolutely. speaker-1: Absolutely. I'm I mean I'm a Chicago fan, but socks. Gotta go socks. sorry, I know I'm not supposed to answer the lightning round questions. speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: Last one. speaker-3: I was wondering if Stacy's a Cubs fan 'cause she didn't she didn't say anything there. speaker-0: You know, I have I have three boys. I don't care at all about baseball. I gotta tell you. Do not care. Now who's who's judging now, Megan? speaker-1: Me, me, a hundred percent. All right, speaker-0: That's right. speaker-1: finally, who should own the future of our neighborhoods? speaker-3: The community. speaker-1: Amen. Great. speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: Benita, you're amazing. You're amazing. That's all I gotta say. In one word, amazing. speaker-3: Thank you. thank you so much. And so grateful for your partnership. speaker-0: So grateful. speaker-3: Thank you. speaker-0: wow, Megan. That was quite a conversation. She is she's a force. That's what I said at the top. She's a force. speaker-1: she is and she lights up any room she's in. So yes. I think we all should double triple down on what she's trying to do so that we have authentic development in communities by people who care as much as she does. speaker-0: There's so many things that she described, dynamics in the neighborhoods, challenges that she's had to overcome. She's really out there. people might recognize her in the development community. Yeah. She's truly an inspiration. I mean, there are a lot of small developers who don't get any attention, who are slogging it out every day. At CIC, we're lending to these small owner operators on the unsubsidized multifamily side. And it's really hard work. And they own a lot of our housing and people aren't aware of them and they don't get the support that they need. And I feel like Bonita did a great job giving them voice. speaker-1: I I totally agree. And I think I think the hardest job about being a small developer like that and trying to grow is you have to be everything in the business. Yeah. From beginning to end. I don't know how she finds time in the day. And she's still really nice. I can't get off of how nice she is. 'Cause I wouldn't be that nice if I had to do all the things and wash all the dishes. No, can't do it. speaker-0: And I am telling you, this too. She's a mentor to other right developers. And she gets it done. the proof is in the pudding there. speaker-1: And Colette too in the same way. Like what she's doing there at Roosevelt and just generally in the industry. And you know, there's so many more, right? So you're working and CIC is working with small developers, the Cook County Land Bank is working with small developers, C C L F, Lisc. In so many ways there's support and and that's a good thing. It's just still not enough. Like we could We could be doing so much more for so many more and we would be really making a an even bigger impact on community development and housing development. speaker-0: You're totally right. And the fact that they're local, I feel like she articulated that so well, right? The the the how important it is that they are local, they understand the local market, they understand what's possible in a way that someone who's not local could never understand. speaker-1: Right. And but like the full circle of it. They can find all the trades, like they can come up with the right location, they can create the right product, they can get all the contractors that are from the community to the recirculating dollars. And it's not difficult for them to also identify people in the community that can benefit from that housing by purchasing it, renting it, whatever that is. It's a full circle. speaker-0: I'm so glad we had her as a guest. Yes. Really, really amazing person and developer. You're right. There's a lot of support already out there. But there there could always be more because this is such important work. speaker-1: Well, Stacy, it's come to an end. To everybody, thanks for listening to Built Different Chicago, where we try to make sense of what's working, what's not, and why it matters. speaker-0: And we'll see you next time.